1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 15 00:00:47,359 --> 00:00:50,920 Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Stephen Kirkton of 16 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,159 the Boston Globe, here to talk to us about his 17 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:58,079 book Master Thieves, the Boston gangsters who pulled off the 18 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:00,960 world's greatest art heist, and we are talking about the 19 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,159 Isabella Stewart Gardner at Museum Art heist. Steve, thank you 20 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:07,959 for joining us today. We're sort of giving Bill palpitations 21 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,400 because we got right to the sixty four thousand dollars 22 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:13,280 question before we started recording. So let me ask the 23 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,879 sixty four thousand dollars question now that we're on the air. 24 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,640 Where do you think the gardener artwork is now? And 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,680 more importantly, can we get it back? Because it is, 26 00:01:22,719 --> 00:01:26,120 as you said, it is Boston's legacy. Boston deserves to 27 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:28,560 have it. Everyone deserves to have it. So can we 28 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:28,959 get it? 29 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, let me go back to that word legacy, because 30 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,640 I think it's a great that we have Rembrandt's only 31 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:41,359 sea skip that we Boston six one seven area has. 32 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,000 The only Verma that's missing was at this museum. It 33 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,040 made us special. We may not have treated that museum special, 34 00:01:51,159 --> 00:01:53,879 but when you look now at the fullness of why 35 00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:57,719 that museum was and what it meant to Boston, what 36 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,319 she brought, what Missus Godda brought, husband had built this 37 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,439 museum and filled it with these masterpieces, it made us special. 38 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,479 Do we get it back? I think we will. I 39 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,360 do think that this artwork is extant. I've thought about 40 00:02:13,439 --> 00:02:16,479 it as it being destroyed, and it's not hard to 41 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,000 look at Donati having artwork, but they don't destroy something. 42 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,520 As one of my now late contacts, in fact, he's 43 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,479 the topic of my first chapter in the book, said 44 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,560 to me, we don't destroy the cork of that wine 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,400 bottle that you're drinking out of. We keep everything. And 46 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:38,039 it's true. When they Robert Gentile, one of the main 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,759 characters in the book, and then the story the saga 48 00:02:41,039 --> 00:02:46,280 of this theft, when they raid Amafioso's house, takes the 49 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,360 two days to empty it out because they're all They 50 00:02:49,479 --> 00:02:53,159 keep everything in. What they found when they raided his 51 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,800 house was they raided it in twenty ten, twenty sixty twelve, 52 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,560 so that's twenty two years after the theft. They find 53 00:03:01,719 --> 00:03:05,800 in his basement no paintings and little money. They find 54 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,599 a gun, which gave them the predicate to parade his house. 55 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:14,400 They find a list of all of the thirteen pieces, 56 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,039 written in French, with what each work would get on 57 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,360 the on the black market now. And thankfully, because Bobby 58 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,919 Robert Gentile could barely speak very pigeon English, he was 59 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,240 able to convince him. I did not draw that up. 60 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,520 I was looking for the paintings because there was then 61 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,800 a ten million dollars reward, but I didn't draw that up. 62 00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:38,719 I didn't have any access to the paintings. Other people 63 00:03:38,759 --> 00:03:41,639 believe otherwise. They written, when they raided his house, they 64 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,960 saw and he had a shed in the back. In 65 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:45,319 the back. 66 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:48,159 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I watched some of these raids. It's amazing. 67 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 5: They it pulled up a false floor in the shed 68 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,199 that had a false floor, and there was a little 69 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:58,599 ditch that he had dug. And the wittier investigators on 70 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:02,000 this case believe that gentile who was a best friend 71 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,080 with the fellow up in Maine who related to that 72 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,560 he had buried the bigger pieces in those pits beneath 73 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:12,159 the false floor of his. 74 00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: Did they take steps there to protect them? Putting a 75 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,879 master in the dirt under your shed is not. 76 00:04:22,959 --> 00:04:26,959 Speaker 5: He said. He did have plastic, rubber made cylinders that 77 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,920 he was able to put. That he'd been able to 78 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:32,360 put it. And I had three days of interviews with him, 79 00:04:32,399 --> 00:04:34,959 a total of five hours of tapes. And I said 80 00:04:34,959 --> 00:04:37,000 to him, and he told me about that, And I said, 81 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,800 what did you have? He said, there was. I never 82 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,959 had paintings. I never had paintings, I said. One of 83 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:43,879 the one of the more interesting things about him. A 84 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,439 Hollywood director sent an emissary to Gentile's lawyer and said, 85 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,720 tell gent The lawyer says, he doesn't trust the FBI, 86 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:56,399 he doesn't trust the museum. He thinks if he tells 87 00:04:56,439 --> 00:04:58,879 them anything, he'll just get thrown into jail for a 88 00:04:58,879 --> 00:05:01,720 longer period of time. But he says he doesn't have anything. 89 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,639 And the director says, tell them this, tell them, I'll 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,560 give you five million dollars. You give me whatever you have, 91 00:05:09,439 --> 00:05:12,079 and then and we'll do a documentary, will do a 92 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,480 movie about this. Right, Gentile said, there ain't no paintings. 93 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,000 There ain't no paintings. So but when I asked him 94 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,519 about what did you have in those cylinders? Should be those? 95 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:27,160 There was a rubber maid rubbermaid pails that you had 96 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,279 down there. What did you have in there? He said, 97 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,439 stolen motors? But they don't tell the truth. It's one 98 00:05:34,079 --> 00:05:38,680 story after about everything. The only thing I thought I 99 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,240 was able on all the gents. So we talked about 100 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,319 the old days in Boston. He had lived in Boston 101 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,480 for a time, and he told me some things about 102 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:49,319 what the fans had done to set them up, blah 103 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,199 blah blah. But then he said, okay, you're done. I'm 104 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,040 done with you now. He said, I said, listen, what 105 00:05:55,199 --> 00:05:58,040 can I bring you from Boston to have you open 106 00:05:58,079 --> 00:06:03,600 the door tomorrow. He said, Regina's Pizza. There's a thin 107 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:06,639 flice pizza in Boston. And I said, I sure do. 108 00:06:06,759 --> 00:06:11,319 He said, bring me two pies. So the next two 109 00:06:11,439 --> 00:06:15,839 interviews days of interviews were only he only agreed to 110 00:06:15,879 --> 00:06:17,839 do because I brought two pies both. 111 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: Days, facilitated by delicious pizza from Boston. 112 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:27,439 Speaker 5: But to get to your cork question, Kristen, I think 113 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,160 they are available. I think, and I do think. While 114 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,240 many of the main characters are dead, I do think 115 00:06:36,439 --> 00:06:41,720 people still whisper and gad and wink in certain of 116 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,279 these older neighborhoods of Boston. North of Boston, there are 117 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:50,720 some communities that had very ethnic and very organized crime. 118 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:54,600 They had their homes in. Their cousins and their nieces 119 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,160 and nephews are still around, their grandchildren are still around, 120 00:06:58,399 --> 00:07:01,360 and they know a little bit more and they could 121 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,199 help in the investigation. And why should they help when 122 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,040 they haven't helped before, is because what those paintings were 123 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,160 put on the walls for. They were to inspire and 124 00:07:12,399 --> 00:07:17,040 educate us, us who counter our a straight line. But 125 00:07:17,319 --> 00:07:21,240 they exult that they live in Boston, for the Bruins, 126 00:07:21,279 --> 00:07:24,319 for the Red Sox, for the medical institutions where so 127 00:07:24,399 --> 00:07:27,519 many of our friends and family were. The Boston is 128 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:31,800 an extraordinary place, and the heaves and the have nots 129 00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:35,600 have that's even out a bit. The have nots. They've 130 00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:38,560 gone on to other things, and they've moved to other neighborhoods, 131 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:41,759 but they still know some secrets, and I think that 132 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:44,519 they have to be. There has to be an outreach 133 00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:48,480 to them to try to convince them with, you know, 134 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,600 just their goodness of their heart. The paintings do no 135 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,639 good wherever they're hid. The only way we can do 136 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,040 what they were meant to do, which is is to 137 00:07:59,199 --> 00:08:04,079 inspire and to exalt. That you are in within ten 138 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,000 feet of Rembrandt's greatest art that has to be conveyed 139 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,839 to the city at large to get the ball rolling. 140 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:16,560 Let's see, I've been a Red Sox fan for more 141 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:21,519 than seventy five years, so I know how it takes 142 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,959 to get the ball rolling that this season is going 143 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,000 to be something different, and I think that to have 144 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:33,240 an outreach that you emphasize why she put these paintings, 145 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,000 these masterpieces on the wall for us in this beautiful 146 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,960 museum within the Fenway area, within the Fenway district, and she, 147 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,799 of all things, cared, Missus Gardner, cared about the Red Sox. 148 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:49,080 You can put these loose ends together and come up 149 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,480 with a theme that says Boston will not be a 150 00:08:52,519 --> 00:08:55,360 world class city until we get our paintings back, and 151 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,000 you can help. You may know someone who knew something 152 00:08:59,279 --> 00:09:02,039 that was real, but you can help get us back 153 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,279 to the great place that we all hope it will 154 00:09:06,279 --> 00:09:08,000 be for our grandchildren. 155 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: If the Boston Red Sox can break the curse of 156 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:17,320 the Vambino exactly and win the World Series. Even though 157 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:22,919 it's been thirty four years, you still are optimistic that 158 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,240 these paintings will someday be returned to the Isabella's. 159 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 5: There's a way of doing it. I'm optimistic about that 160 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,559 way of doing it, and that's outreach to these communities 161 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,480 and say, help us to these families, help us get 162 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,360 it back. You have an obligation to help us get 163 00:09:41,399 --> 00:09:42,200 this paintings back. 164 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 2: Why do you think when the FBI announced several years 165 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,720 ago that they believe they knew who had stolen the 166 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,759 paintings and they were low level mobsters, why do you 167 00:09:53,799 --> 00:09:56,559 think They didn't name them at the. 168 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 5: Time because it did no good to name them, and 169 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,840 I don't think they had the proof. I don't think 170 00:10:02,879 --> 00:10:05,759 they know who the second Bobby Donatti was one, but 171 00:10:05,799 --> 00:10:08,679 I don't know if they know who the second guard was. 172 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,720 Excuse me, second the thief was who was with Donati 173 00:10:12,919 --> 00:10:16,240 that night. All they wanted to do was to get 174 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,399 people picking up and get one person. Hey, did you 175 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,799 see what the FBI did? And get them and they'll 176 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,399 pick it up, they'll get information. And did that happen? 177 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,240 I don't know. I don't know, but it did cause 178 00:10:31,879 --> 00:10:36,840 an explosion of interest this case. Every year The New 179 00:10:36,919 --> 00:10:41,399 York Times had it on thirty fourth Anniversal thirty fourth Anniversal, 180 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:47,360 No new information, just a collection of odds and ends 181 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,039 on the front page. Why A one, I think it's 182 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:58,399 because the theft was pretty artful scheming. But second is 183 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,639 the masterpieces that are in third that not one piece 184 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,279 has turned up, and also not one person has been 185 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:11,440 put in jail. So it's such a case for the ages, 186 00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:15,720 and I think it'll be written about until we get 187 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,919 them back because of the theft is so important in 188 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:20,480 the mystery is so steep. 189 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,519 Speaker 4: And I was familiar with the theft already, But what 190 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:29,320 really led me to your book was the Netflix documentary 191 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,399 This Is a Robbery. Can you tell us a little 192 00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:34,600 bit about your involvement with the documentary? 193 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,039 Speaker 5: Thank you, chuse. The two men who were for the 194 00:11:38,039 --> 00:11:42,720 main producers of it, Nick and Colin Barnacle, are sons 195 00:11:42,759 --> 00:11:48,120 of Michael Mike Barnacle and Fidukan and both pretty important 196 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,480 people around Boston. Mike had been a columnist for the 197 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,360 Boston Globe, now has writes Call Right. Charlson appears on 198 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,200 Martin Joe on MSNBC. But Mike had reached out to 199 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:04,720 me in the late let me see, probably on two 200 00:12:04,759 --> 00:12:07,799 thousand and six, seventeen eighteen after my book came out, 201 00:12:08,159 --> 00:12:11,320 and said, my boys, they both did documentaries but on 202 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,000 sports figures, and would you help the boys? And I 203 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,600 said sure, I'll give anything I can or whatever you need. Mike, 204 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,919 Mike does have four second row, second and third row 205 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,840 tickets park seats right next to the Red Sharks dug. 206 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,799 Speaker 2: Out speaking of Boston Legacy. 207 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 5: So I've said, whatever we worked out for payment to 208 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:36,799 be helping your sons, I do want those tickets for 209 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:44,279 a Yankee game. Three grand children there are some things 210 00:12:44,279 --> 00:12:47,879 that are worth more than that money can buy. That 211 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,480 was a terrific night, a terrific they gave. I have 212 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,840 worked valiantly on this thing, but I still think that 213 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:01,080 there is a way of convincing people who know something 214 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,639 to step forward, to step up. In their four part 215 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,480 series during the COVID I think it was twenty twenty one, 216 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:13,240 it was on That was the best documentary that was 217 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,159 done that year for Netflix. Everybody watched it. 218 00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fantastical. 219 00:13:19,039 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 5: They came into my they came here to my home, 220 00:13:21,879 --> 00:13:26,559 elegant home in Plymouth, and spent a whole day interviewing 221 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,399 me and never seen so much equipment down in my 222 00:13:29,759 --> 00:13:31,919 room where I wrote my book, and they we had 223 00:13:31,919 --> 00:13:34,960 a terrific time, and they knew a lot, and they 224 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,000 had just kept up that one thing I had asked them, 225 00:13:38,159 --> 00:13:42,200 don't try to solve this case. Just present the mystery, 226 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,840 the importance of the case, and the characters that populate 227 00:13:46,919 --> 00:13:50,960 this case. And they did. Still I think a favorite. 228 00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:55,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's wonderful and it got into some areas that 229 00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:58,840 I had not even considered. They did have a little 230 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,480 a tangent in their about the question of whether or 231 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:04,919 not the paintings might have been the sell to someone 232 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,440 in exchange for arms for the IRA. Yeah, that kind 233 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,080 of blew my mind. I was like, oh, my gosh, 234 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,639 we never considered that. 235 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 5: Christin the Bill has not taken you around some of 236 00:14:14,159 --> 00:14:18,720 our neighborhoods. Because back in the day this chapter on 237 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:24,000 this Whitey Bulger was a notorious criminal organized had his 238 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,159 own gang in South Boston. And the anybody, when you 239 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,320 do a talk in Boston about this, I said, isn't 240 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,240 this Whitey? Didn't Whitey do this? And the reason why 241 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:40,240 is that Whitey Bulger had a sense of sovereignty criminal gangs. 242 00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:44,600 I learned this that the if you headed a criminal 243 00:14:44,639 --> 00:14:48,639 gang in a theft or a score as I call him, 244 00:14:49,039 --> 00:14:53,000 was pulled off in your neighborhood, you as the crime 245 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:58,200 leader in that neighborhood, you had the sovereign right to 246 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,000 either say yes or no on that theft. And if 247 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:04,600 you said yes, you expected to get a cut fifteen percent. 248 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:10,159 And so Whitey there had been a bank robbery in Boston, 249 00:15:10,679 --> 00:15:14,960 excuse me, Noshova of Boston and the criminal white He 250 00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:18,480 hunted down the criminal because Whitey hadn't sanctioned that theft. 251 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,039 Whitey killed the robber, the head of that game that 252 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,879 did that theft. So as I thought, Jesus Whitey had 253 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:30,879 to know. Whitey was on the street, Whitey Bulger, He's 254 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,679 so well was so well known, not late. There's a 255 00:15:34,799 --> 00:15:38,840 terrific movie in twenty fifteen called Black Mass. Yeah, that 256 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,840 was written by two of my Globe colleagues, Dick Lair 257 00:15:42,039 --> 00:15:47,639 and Jerry O'Neill, and they followed Whitey's trail and all 258 00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:52,120 of his criminal exploits. Whitey was on the street. White 259 00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:56,080 He disappeared fro nineteen ninety five to twenty thirteen. He 260 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:01,200 was caught in twenty thirteen, convicted of multiple murders and 261 00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:04,240 sent to jail. He wasn't in the prison for more 262 00:16:04,279 --> 00:16:07,000 than a month when he was assassinated, because it turned 263 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:10,720 out Whitey was an FBI informant. No one that really 264 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:13,679 knew about it, and was ever really proven until Black 265 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,759 Mass was published. Whitey was on the street from nineteen 266 00:16:16,879 --> 00:16:19,200 ninety to ninety five. He was for five years. He 267 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,879 was in Boston protected because of this FBI deal he had. 268 00:16:24,399 --> 00:16:27,120 Wouldn't it make sense that Whitey would have known about 269 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,879 the theft, wouldn't have sanctioned it or known who did 270 00:16:30,919 --> 00:16:34,960 pull it off. The Feds. The FBI reached out to 271 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,480 his handler within the FBI, and they said to him, 272 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:41,399 call your friend Whitey and try to figure out where 273 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,840 who did this and where this artwork is. This is 274 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,559 in nineteen ninety one, a year after the theft, and 275 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:51,039 the handle reached out to Whitey and was white He 276 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,559 said to him, don't you think I've already looked to 277 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,679 find out who took this. I didn't get my cut. 278 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,200 I want my fifteen percent of whatever the art work 279 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:05,200 is valued. And he said, I tried. One of my intermediate, 280 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,000 one of my informants, told me the artwork is in 281 00:17:08,039 --> 00:17:11,880 Saudi Arabia, and he said. The next guy came and said, no, 282 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,880 somebody named Sullivan in South Boston knows something. And he says, 283 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,279 he said to the FBI agent, he said, Sullivan in 284 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,759 South Boston. There's more Sullivan's in South Boston than there 285 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:26,359 are grains of sand in Saudi Arabia. He's somebody who 286 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,759 knows something. Why from everything I know, Whitey couldn't figure 287 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:33,759 this one out. And so the case, like so much 288 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:35,720 else in this saga, remains a mystery. 289 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,799 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder we'll be right back 290 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:52,839 after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at 291 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,119 mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just 292 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,480 wanted to remind you that we have a go fund 293 00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:03,480 me going on right now. This campaign is designed to 294 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,960 help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder 295 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:12,240 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 296 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,000 We'd love it if you could support us in any 297 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,960 way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to 298 00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:22,039 whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will 299 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:25,000 be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes 300 00:18:25,079 --> 00:18:28,759 and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for 301 00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:34,559 your support. Now back to Mind over Murder. I can't 302 00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:36,240 help but think if the three of us made it 303 00:18:36,319 --> 00:18:39,000 our life's work to figure this out, we'd also be 304 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,599 risking our lives. 305 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,559 Speaker 5: I've been there, doctor, the lawyers, present yourself. Just from 306 00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:50,160 the work that any reporter for the Boston Globe with 307 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,680 the Boston Herald who has covered the city and done 308 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,240 it the right way for the way the newsrooms mandate 309 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:02,240 of them, we'll get some feedback. There was one fellow 310 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:05,680 I lived in a near the water near the Atlantic Ocean. 311 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,519 Ten minute walk and the next beach up who has 312 00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:12,440 had some Sedia characters in it, and I went. I 313 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,960 called the woman one time and I said, hey, your 314 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,079 husband won't talk to me. Why won't he talk to me? 315 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,759 And she's she saw the five oweight area code on 316 00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:24,839 my I was using my phone. She said, where are 317 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,279 you calling from? Five oweight And I said, I'm calling 318 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,799 from minimum it's the name of our beach. And she said, oh, 319 00:19:31,319 --> 00:19:33,079 how are you and I get married in the next 320 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,039 beach up in white Horse Beach? So I said, She said, 321 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,240 if you care for miniment, you're a good enough guy. 322 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,680 How do we get on the phone and talk to 323 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:49,759 this guy? Happy wife, happy life? How are we going 324 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:51,799 to He didn't have much, but he at least he 325 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:52,680 took my phot. 326 00:19:55,079 --> 00:19:58,759 Speaker 2: Do you still actively think about this case? 327 00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 5: And I actively thing. I have a couple of other 328 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:04,880 stories that I'm working on. During the pandemic, I worked 329 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,240 on three other stories, one of them I'm still working on, 330 00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:13,440 but none of them came out. Just really me, I'm 331 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,039 a good judge of which stories will pan out. But 332 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:17,400 is this a. 333 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: Publishing issue or a writing issue? Which I did? 334 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,039 Speaker 5: It didn't. I thought there was a eureka at the 335 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,799 end of it probable cause, and if I get on it, 336 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,839 I'll be able to get something about this one was 337 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,920 this gentleman felt he had recovered or bought off of eBay, 338 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,799 of all things, a Rembrant, and he saw my passion 339 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,519 and my endurance on these stories. So he called me 340 00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:46,720 up and he said, would you help me prove that 341 00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:50,480 I've got a Rembrandt? And I there was good evidence, 342 00:20:50,599 --> 00:20:54,480 but what I wrote, what I felt is it's just 343 00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:58,079 halfway there. So he wasn't willing to go on the record, 344 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,319 so I said, okay, fine, So. 345 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,039 Speaker 4: Trying to figure out how you buy a Rembrandt on eBay. 346 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 5: Don't forget there are so many, so many copies that 347 00:21:09,319 --> 00:21:11,880 one of the ways I got dragged into this. The 348 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,079 Herald had a reporter who was on the story in 349 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,359 ninety seven. Yes, and he was shown what he was. 350 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: Oh, I remember this. This was a fascinating story, and 351 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:25,279 he went a warehouse in New York. 352 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 5: Went to he said, forty five minutes away from Boston. 353 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,079 We didn't I didn't know until I got on. This 354 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,319 is how I got on the story. The one of 355 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:34,720 the end of the skates me. He said, see help 356 00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:36,720 us out here. The Herald's way ahead of us on this. 357 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:41,720 I did not think, knowing the reporter and knowing whom 358 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,119 he was speaking with, that there was credibility here. But 359 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:48,079 I said, listen, the Herald's got a fun page story. 360 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:49,119 We've seen it. 361 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that, we've seen story. 362 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:55,599 Speaker 5: So you got to jump in on that. And what 363 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,559 it turned out was the reporter himself, he's the Herald's 364 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:02,319 never ever acted it. But I did interview the reporter 365 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,559 from my book in a whole chapter on that. This 366 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,880 case of this, this saga, is that when the guy 367 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,799 whom he was dealing with, the na do Well, let 368 00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:18,279 me say, took the painting out of its cylindrical where 369 00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:21,440 it was being contained container and he held it over 370 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,880 his head. What the reporter said is that the painting 371 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:31,839 the canvas unfurled, and when he later spoke to the museum, 372 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,759 convinced him that Rembrandt was too lacquered, too schillact. I 373 00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:40,960 could not you couldn't fold it, you couldn't bend it. 374 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 2: It would be too stiff. From all. 375 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 5: In one, I don't think I've ever used it, but 376 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,400 I have the nadowell who showed it to him. What 377 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,720 he wanted to do was to get the Herald to 378 00:22:54,799 --> 00:22:58,000 buy into that he had the Rembrandt, and as a 379 00:22:58,039 --> 00:23:00,640 result he would let another name had to well out 380 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:01,400 of jail. 381 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: And here we go again with here you. 382 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,079 Speaker 5: Go get out of jail free card. And the Feds 383 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,119 never would let the second one out of jail. They said, no, 384 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,559 you got to give us up. If you got something, 385 00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:16,839 show it to us. But I had that first, that 386 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,480 first guy's telephone book, and in the telephone book of 387 00:23:20,559 --> 00:23:23,880 the small telephone book that he put in his pocket, 388 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,920 in it was the name of a Manhattan of company 389 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:35,559 that made up paintings. And I'm thinking he had approached them, 390 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,279 and if I called them, they said they didn't have anything. 391 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,799 They hadn't done this Rembrandt. But I'm thinking he went 392 00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:45,920 to someone else and had had the brant. Must have 393 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,960 been a good job, because the Herald reporter said, I 394 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,279 saw it for a moment and it looked like the 395 00:23:51,319 --> 00:23:56,640 real thing. That's why he reported, we've seen another dead end. 396 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,920 But still mastery. You couldn't make the stuff up. As 397 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,079 someone said to my book, here a cast of characters 398 00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:10,559 that would make Martin Scorsese swooned in admiration. That's true. 399 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:11,839 That's true. 400 00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:15,759 Speaker 2: With the success of Master Thieves, are you tempted to 401 00:24:15,799 --> 00:24:16,799 write another book? 402 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:20,519 Speaker 5: I know what it takes to write a book when 403 00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:25,000 it's an anatomy, and that's not the kind of book 404 00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:27,119 I want to write again. I want to write a 405 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,920 book that and I don't want to write a book 406 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:36,200 that leaves the reader in anticipation hanging. I want to write. 407 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,319 I want that last chapter written, and I don't have 408 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,400 that yet. I don't have it for Master Thieves, and 409 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,599 I don't have it for this other case. I still 410 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:49,279 working the not the not the faull re brand, but 411 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,519 another case that I'm working. 412 00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 4: Steve, if someone has information or thinks they have information 413 00:24:55,079 --> 00:24:57,759 about the stolen paintings from the gardener, who should they 414 00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:00,559 be contacting? I doubt you want them reaching out to you. 415 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,559 Speaker 5: Stephen Kirchen at gmail dot com. I respond, But the 416 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:12,079 FBI Boston office, the gentleman named Jeff with a G. 417 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:15,839 Jeff Kelly, who will take every call in Anthony Maury, 418 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,799 who's the security director at the museum. I asked, I 419 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,960 think it's dot com. Excuse me, dot com? You'll you'll, 420 00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:29,720 they will take your call, they will engage you, but please, 421 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,720 they will all of us have gone down rabbit holes. Here. 422 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,599 We'll listen to you, but please, if you're calling, have 423 00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:43,559 something that leads somewhere, and don't let us have another 424 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:49,839 worthless pursuit. The deal the FBI made with Bulger was 425 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:55,279 that he was snitch on the Italian mar but he 426 00:25:55,519 --> 00:26:01,440 and they would let him off on his criminality. They 427 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,720 would do. And let me tell you, he didn't give 428 00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:06,480 up anything. I know who gave the Feds the information 429 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,039 to let them break into the end Julos and they 430 00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:13,680 were the crime gang, Imparson, And it wasn't Bulger, it 431 00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:16,519 was this other guy. But she said, I won't talk 432 00:26:16,519 --> 00:26:23,920 to any Irish so wow, Polish of a Polish prosecutor 433 00:26:24,279 --> 00:26:29,440 who had prosecuted Bulger. And he called her and he 434 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:31,839 said to her. I don't know what he said to her. 435 00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:34,920 She doesn't return my phone calls. They never refer turned 436 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,039 my phone calls. Just the sister. How the game is played? 437 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,279 Speaker 4: And do you think David Turner's still out there right? 438 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 5: Do you think he's been released? David certainly knows something, 439 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,960 probably knows where those two paintings were sold, let's say 440 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,319 two or three. The way I figure the one hinge 441 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,640 led to a door that led to an alley that 442 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:09,960 led to the Eureka, is that Donadi in Guarente, even 443 00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:13,960 though a generation apart in an age, they were pals 444 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,160 in effett like this, they belonged to different games. Garente 445 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,680 belonged to the Frankslemmy gang, and Donati belonged to the 446 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,319 Ferrara game. But since they were from the same neighborhood, 447 00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:34,759 they were bob they could talk. When Donati stole the 448 00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:39,720 paintings and Ferrara didn't want him use to get out 449 00:27:39,759 --> 00:27:44,079 of jail. I think Donadi went to Guarante because he 450 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,640 knew Guaranty was o g was an old and could 451 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,119 help him, And so he went to Guarente and maybe 452 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,440 he sold, gave whatever two of the big paintings to 453 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:00,519 Garenty on the promise Garenti would sell them and money 454 00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:05,680 back to Donadi. Donadi was known to have gone during 455 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,279 the year and a half that he was alive after 456 00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:11,279 the theft. He was known to have gone to Florida 457 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,720 and spent a lot of money at the race track 458 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,400 I sent and I think the FEDS know all about this, 459 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:20,359 but they won't give it up. Spent money at the 460 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,960 racetrack when he came back, he said to Garanty, I 461 00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:28,839 want more money. I want more money, and Garante had 462 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,119 him killed or killed him himself. Turner was brought up 463 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,640 by Guarante. Turner even though not Italian, he came from 464 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,119 Becomp and he's a kid. He's in his forties when 465 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,119 he was hanging out with he was a teenager when 466 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,079 he was hanging out with Guarante. That Garente took him 467 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,039 under his wing. Turner turned out to be a very 468 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:57,519 capable killer, drug dealer, whatever. And I think he learned 469 00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:02,200 from Garente what Garente did with the artwork. That's what 470 00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:06,960 I think garrent When Garenty finally gave information to the Feds, 471 00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:12,480 he gave them what he heard or will learn about 472 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,960 what Garente did with that Karenti killed Donati and what 473 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,519 he did with the artwork that he got from Donati. 474 00:29:20,359 --> 00:29:23,960 And I've reached out to now garent Turner has been released. 475 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,240 His sentence was cut by seven years. 476 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:29,039 Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw that in the documentary. 477 00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 5: That was after the book came out of focusing more 478 00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:39,720 on him. I've approached Turner sense to sit for an interview, 479 00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:44,160 but it took Crafty of a reporter, and I don't 480 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,200 think they used that word. 481 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,799 Speaker 2: Where is Turner? Is he in Massachusetts? 482 00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:56,319 Speaker 5: He's probably home and and Brantry and especially back to 483 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,759 his own old neighborhood. But I think he's The Feds 484 00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:03,119 know about a couple of murders, so they've got him 485 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,319 on a short leash. Yeah, he salutes, and it doesn't 486 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:10,240 give interviews to reporters. The Feds want to get it 487 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:12,440 the only way they're going to get it, which is 488 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,480 somebody picks up the phone. I think Turner has told 489 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:18,759 them everything that he knows, but he doesn't know where 490 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,759 Guarente did with the artwork. 491 00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:23,359 Speaker 2: And of course one of the things we all have 492 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,920 to remember is the artwork could have been dispersed. It 493 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,799 could have easily gone to a different place. 494 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 5: I hear you, Billy, and I agree it could have been. 495 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,359 Oh we didn't get back to Bulger Bulger head and 496 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,440 then Bulger was It's crazy social passion. He had an 497 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:46,279 enduring alliance with the IRA, So that's why we would 498 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:52,559 have done anything. These jerks, they have this belief, oh, Ira, 499 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,079 get rid of, get rid of the nineteenth county. There 500 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,000 ridiculous killing people. 501 00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 4: I have yet to come up to Boston to see 502 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,759 the Gardener Museum, but to come up. I would love 503 00:31:05,839 --> 00:31:06,440 to Bill. 504 00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:07,759 Speaker 2: It's beautiful. 505 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 5: When I met it wasn't a guy that we just 506 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:11,519 walked through. 507 00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 2: But no, it was very and I didn't mention it 508 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,160 on the air. Remember you and I were walking up 509 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,880 the stairs to the second floor and ANTHONYA. Moorey came 510 00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:23,319 right stairs. 511 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 5: Anthony, I was my book had just come out. Anthony 512 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:29,160 was not pleased with the book. 513 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, he gave you the once over and kept right 514 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,279 on going. I don't know if I told you this. 515 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,720 During that same time I saw you, I went and 516 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,039 listened to him speak. He was doing one of his 517 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,319 stop sets at a library on the South Shore. 518 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,359 Speaker 5: It wasn't Plymouth. He came to Plymouth, I think with Jeff, 519 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,799 with Jeff Kelly, but I don't think they said much. 520 00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: This was him by himself, but his wife or girlfriend 521 00:31:58,599 --> 00:32:02,240 was with him. Very attractive Asian American moment, and they 522 00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:06,480 were selling copies of his books, and he spoke. I 523 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,160 chatted with him afterwards and I name dropped you, but 524 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,680 it didn't see get me much. Yeah, he said. 525 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 5: If books should have been written in two thousand and one, 526 00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:21,559 nineteen ninety five, should not have been twenty fifteen, but. 527 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,279 Speaker 2: I'm really glad that it came out because it really 528 00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:26,720 does get. 529 00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 5: I got a real good what do they call that 530 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:36,640 offer with option from Sony TV, And they had hired 531 00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:42,680 a director of Adila and we were all going. But 532 00:32:44,279 --> 00:32:50,759 my great friend's movie Black Mass didn't do well, even 533 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:54,039 though it had Johnny Depp. Yeah, and it's very was 534 00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:55,519 so scary in that movie. 535 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's creepy as hell. 536 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 5: Ally would wash ardor for Boston Crime Books in twenty 537 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,240 fifteen when mine was Sony pulled away. They gave me 538 00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:12,480 two big contracts, a lot of money, had some fun, 539 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:16,559 and I kept saying him, fly meet who's who won't play? 540 00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:20,799 Who won't play? Fly me to Los Angeles, have them 541 00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:22,920 take a meeting with me. We'll get to him. 542 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, Yeah I fish. 543 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 5: He said, listen, we're right now with DiCaprio in DiCaprio's 544 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,160 Best Friend is Oh Cide, the House rules. 545 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,039 Speaker 4: What's the name Tobby maguire. 546 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,559 Speaker 5: Toby McGuire. They played big Poker, so agent I said, 547 00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:53,400 get me to that game in my elements, Oh my gosh. 548 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: And they would have loved you because you're the real deal. 549 00:33:56,599 --> 00:34:01,119 Speaker 5: Right, but he said, Steve, they make four four digit bets. 550 00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:05,839 Speaker 2: Wow. Please tell Sony to back the bets. 551 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. Hey, trip, terrific time. Let me know if you 552 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:14,760 hear anything. Bill, please come up. 553 00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:18,519 Speaker 4: Hey, I have every intention of coming up at some 554 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,119 point or another. I would love to go to the 555 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,559 museum summer waits come on all right? 556 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Thank you, take care of Thanks Steve. 557 00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:30,159 Speaker 4: The book is Master Thieves, the Boston Gangster who pulled 558 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:33,239 off the World's Greatest art heist, and the documentary is 559 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,519 This Is a Robbery available on Netflix. Stephen, thank you 560 00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:40,599 so much for joining us today. This was a real pleasure. 561 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 5: Bill, Kristen, thank you very much for having me. Great 562 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:44,159 to chat. 563 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 4: That is going to do it for this episode of 564 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,039 mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 565 00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:51,880 see you next time. 566 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 567 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,320 Another Dog Productions. 568 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 569 00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 570 00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:15,679 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 571 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 572 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,159 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 573 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 574 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,840 murders on Facebook. 575 00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:31,559 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 576 00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:33,239 Bill Thomas. Five six. 577 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.