Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm
Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Stephen Kirkton of
the Boston Globe, here to talk to us about his
book Master Thieves, the Boston gangsters who pulled off the
world's greatest art heist, and we are talking about the
Isabella Stewart Gardner at Museum Art heist. Steve, thank you
for joining us today. We're sort of giving Bill palpitations
because we got right to the sixty four thousand dollars
question before we started recording. So let me ask the
sixty four thousand dollars question now that we're on the air.
Where do you think the gardener artwork is now? And
more importantly, can we get it back? Because it is,
as you said, it is Boston's legacy. Boston deserves to
have it. Everyone deserves to have it. So can we
get it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, let me go back to that word legacy, because
I think it's a great that we have Rembrandt's only
sea skip that we Boston six one seven area has.
The only Verma that's missing was at this museum. It
made us special. We may not have treated that museum special,
but when you look now at the fullness of why
that museum was and what it meant to Boston, what
she brought, what Missus Godda brought, husband had built this
museum and filled it with these masterpieces, it made us special.
Do we get it back? I think we will. I
do think that this artwork is extant. I've thought about
it as it being destroyed, and it's not hard to
look at Donati having artwork, but they don't destroy something.
As one of my now late contacts, in fact, he's
the topic of my first chapter in the book, said
to me, we don't destroy the cork of that wine
bottle that you're drinking out of. We keep everything. And
it's true. When they Robert Gentile, one of the main
characters in the book, and then the story the saga
of this theft, when they raid Amafioso's house, takes the
two days to empty it out because they're all They
keep everything in. What they found when they raided his
house was they raided it in twenty ten, twenty sixty twelve,
so that's twenty two years after the theft. They find
in his basement no paintings and little money. They find
a gun, which gave them the predicate to parade his house.
They find a list of all of the thirteen pieces,
written in French, with what each work would get on
the on the black market now. And thankfully, because Bobby
Robert Gentile could barely speak very pigeon English, he was
able to convince him. I did not draw that up.
I was looking for the paintings because there was then
a ten million dollars reward, but I didn't draw that up.
I didn't have any access to the paintings. Other people
believe otherwise. They written, when they raided his house, they
saw and he had a shed in the back. In
the back.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I watched some of these raids. It's amazing.
Speaker 5: They it pulled up a false floor in the shed
that had a false floor, and there was a little
ditch that he had dug. And the wittier investigators on
this case believe that gentile who was a best friend
with the fellow up in Maine who related to that
he had buried the bigger pieces in those pits beneath
the false floor of his.
Speaker 2: Did they take steps there to protect them? Putting a
master in the dirt under your shed is not.
Speaker 5: He said. He did have plastic, rubber made cylinders that
he was able to put. That he'd been able to
put it. And I had three days of interviews with him,
a total of five hours of tapes. And I said
to him, and he told me about that, And I said,
what did you have? He said, there was. I never
had paintings. I never had paintings, I said. One of
the one of the more interesting things about him. A
Hollywood director sent an emissary to Gentile's lawyer and said,
tell gent The lawyer says, he doesn't trust the FBI,
he doesn't trust the museum. He thinks if he tells
them anything, he'll just get thrown into jail for a
longer period of time. But he says he doesn't have anything.
And the director says, tell them this, tell them, I'll
give you five million dollars. You give me whatever you have,
and then and we'll do a documentary, will do a
movie about this. Right, Gentile said, there ain't no paintings.
There ain't no paintings. So but when I asked him
about what did you have in those cylinders? Should be those?
There was a rubber maid rubbermaid pails that you had
down there. What did you have in there? He said,
stolen motors? But they don't tell the truth. It's one
story after about everything. The only thing I thought I
was able on all the gents. So we talked about
the old days in Boston. He had lived in Boston
for a time, and he told me some things about
what the fans had done to set them up, blah
blah blah. But then he said, okay, you're done. I'm
done with you now. He said, I said, listen, what
can I bring you from Boston to have you open
the door tomorrow. He said, Regina's Pizza. There's a thin
flice pizza in Boston. And I said, I sure do.
He said, bring me two pies. So the next two
interviews days of interviews were only he only agreed to
do because I brought two pies both.
Speaker 2: Days, facilitated by delicious pizza from Boston.
Speaker 5: But to get to your cork question, Kristen, I think
they are available. I think, and I do think. While
many of the main characters are dead, I do think
people still whisper and gad and wink in certain of
these older neighborhoods of Boston. North of Boston, there are
some communities that had very ethnic and very organized crime.
They had their homes in. Their cousins and their nieces
and nephews are still around, their grandchildren are still around,
and they know a little bit more and they could
help in the investigation. And why should they help when
they haven't helped before, is because what those paintings were
put on the walls for. They were to inspire and
educate us, us who counter our a straight line. But
they exult that they live in Boston, for the Bruins,
for the Red Sox, for the medical institutions where so
many of our friends and family were. The Boston is
an extraordinary place, and the heaves and the have nots
have that's even out a bit. The have nots. They've
gone on to other things, and they've moved to other neighborhoods,
but they still know some secrets, and I think that
they have to be. There has to be an outreach
to them to try to convince them with, you know,
just their goodness of their heart. The paintings do no
good wherever they're hid. The only way we can do
what they were meant to do, which is is to
inspire and to exalt. That you are in within ten
feet of Rembrandt's greatest art that has to be conveyed
to the city at large to get the ball rolling.
Let's see, I've been a Red Sox fan for more
than seventy five years, so I know how it takes
to get the ball rolling that this season is going
to be something different, and I think that to have
an outreach that you emphasize why she put these paintings,
these masterpieces on the wall for us in this beautiful
museum within the Fenway area, within the Fenway district, and she,
of all things, cared, Missus Gardner, cared about the Red Sox.
You can put these loose ends together and come up
with a theme that says Boston will not be a
world class city until we get our paintings back, and
you can help. You may know someone who knew something
that was real, but you can help get us back
to the great place that we all hope it will
be for our grandchildren.
Speaker 2: If the Boston Red Sox can break the curse of
the Vambino exactly and win the World Series. Even though
it's been thirty four years, you still are optimistic that
these paintings will someday be returned to the Isabella's.
Speaker 5: There's a way of doing it. I'm optimistic about that
way of doing it, and that's outreach to these communities
and say, help us to these families, help us get
it back. You have an obligation to help us get
this paintings back.
Speaker 2: Why do you think when the FBI announced several years
ago that they believe they knew who had stolen the
paintings and they were low level mobsters, why do you
think They didn't name them at the.
Speaker 5: Time because it did no good to name them, and
I don't think they had the proof. I don't think
they know who the second Bobby Donatti was one, but
I don't know if they know who the second guard was.
Excuse me, second the thief was who was with Donati
that night. All they wanted to do was to get
people picking up and get one person. Hey, did you
see what the FBI did? And get them and they'll
pick it up, they'll get information. And did that happen?
I don't know. I don't know, but it did cause
an explosion of interest this case. Every year The New
York Times had it on thirty fourth Anniversal thirty fourth Anniversal,
No new information, just a collection of odds and ends
on the front page. Why A one, I think it's
because the theft was pretty artful scheming. But second is
the masterpieces that are in third that not one piece
has turned up, and also not one person has been
put in jail. So it's such a case for the ages,
and I think it'll be written about until we get
them back because of the theft is so important in
the mystery is so steep.
Speaker 4: And I was familiar with the theft already, But what
really led me to your book was the Netflix documentary
This Is a Robbery. Can you tell us a little
bit about your involvement with the documentary?
Speaker 5: Thank you, chuse. The two men who were for the
main producers of it, Nick and Colin Barnacle, are sons
of Michael Mike Barnacle and Fidukan and both pretty important
people around Boston. Mike had been a columnist for the
Boston Globe, now has writes Call Right. Charlson appears on
Martin Joe on MSNBC. But Mike had reached out to
me in the late let me see, probably on two
thousand and six, seventeen eighteen after my book came out,
and said, my boys, they both did documentaries but on
sports figures, and would you help the boys? And I
said sure, I'll give anything I can or whatever you need. Mike,
Mike does have four second row, second and third row
tickets park seats right next to the Red Sharks dug.
Speaker 2: Out speaking of Boston Legacy.
Speaker 5: So I've said, whatever we worked out for payment to
be helping your sons, I do want those tickets for
a Yankee game. Three grand children there are some things
that are worth more than that money can buy. That
was a terrific night, a terrific they gave. I have
worked valiantly on this thing, but I still think that
there is a way of convincing people who know something
to step forward, to step up. In their four part
series during the COVID I think it was twenty twenty one,
it was on That was the best documentary that was
done that year for Netflix. Everybody watched it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fantastical.
Speaker 5: They came into my they came here to my home,
elegant home in Plymouth, and spent a whole day interviewing
me and never seen so much equipment down in my
room where I wrote my book, and they we had
a terrific time, and they knew a lot, and they
had just kept up that one thing I had asked them,
don't try to solve this case. Just present the mystery,
the importance of the case, and the characters that populate
this case. And they did. Still I think a favorite.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's wonderful and it got into some areas that
I had not even considered. They did have a little
a tangent in their about the question of whether or
not the paintings might have been the sell to someone
in exchange for arms for the IRA. Yeah, that kind
of blew my mind. I was like, oh, my gosh,
we never considered that.
Speaker 5: Christin the Bill has not taken you around some of
our neighborhoods. Because back in the day this chapter on
this Whitey Bulger was a notorious criminal organized had his
own gang in South Boston. And the anybody, when you
do a talk in Boston about this, I said, isn't
this Whitey? Didn't Whitey do this? And the reason why
is that Whitey Bulger had a sense of sovereignty criminal gangs.
I learned this that the if you headed a criminal
gang in a theft or a score as I call him,
was pulled off in your neighborhood, you as the crime
leader in that neighborhood, you had the sovereign right to
either say yes or no on that theft. And if
you said yes, you expected to get a cut fifteen percent.
And so Whitey there had been a bank robbery in Boston,
excuse me, Noshova of Boston and the criminal white He
hunted down the criminal because Whitey hadn't sanctioned that theft.
Whitey killed the robber, the head of that game that
did that theft. So as I thought, Jesus Whitey had
to know. Whitey was on the street, Whitey Bulger, He's
so well was so well known, not late. There's a
terrific movie in twenty fifteen called Black Mass. Yeah, that
was written by two of my Globe colleagues, Dick Lair
and Jerry O'Neill, and they followed Whitey's trail and all
of his criminal exploits. Whitey was on the street. White
He disappeared fro nineteen ninety five to twenty thirteen. He
was caught in twenty thirteen, convicted of multiple murders and
sent to jail. He wasn't in the prison for more
than a month when he was assassinated, because it turned
out Whitey was an FBI informant. No one that really
knew about it, and was ever really proven until Black
Mass was published. Whitey was on the street from nineteen
ninety to ninety five. He was for five years. He
was in Boston protected because of this FBI deal he had.
Wouldn't it make sense that Whitey would have known about
the theft, wouldn't have sanctioned it or known who did
pull it off. The Feds. The FBI reached out to
his handler within the FBI, and they said to him,
call your friend Whitey and try to figure out where
who did this and where this artwork is. This is
in nineteen ninety one, a year after the theft, and
the handle reached out to Whitey and was white He
said to him, don't you think I've already looked to
find out who took this. I didn't get my cut.
I want my fifteen percent of whatever the art work
is valued. And he said, I tried. One of my intermediate,
one of my informants, told me the artwork is in
Saudi Arabia, and he said. The next guy came and said, no,
somebody named Sullivan in South Boston knows something. And he says,
he said to the FBI agent, he said, Sullivan in
South Boston. There's more Sullivan's in South Boston than there
are grains of sand in Saudi Arabia. He's somebody who
knows something. Why from everything I know, Whitey couldn't figure
this one out. And so the case, like so much
else in this saga, remains a mystery.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder we'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at
mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just
wanted to remind you that we have a go fund
me going on right now. This campaign is designed to
help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder
and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward.
We'd love it if you could support us in any
way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to
whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will
be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes
and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for
your support. Now back to Mind over Murder. I can't
help but think if the three of us made it
our life's work to figure this out, we'd also be
risking our lives.
Speaker 5: I've been there, doctor, the lawyers, present yourself. Just from
the work that any reporter for the Boston Globe with
the Boston Herald who has covered the city and done
it the right way for the way the newsrooms mandate
of them, we'll get some feedback. There was one fellow
I lived in a near the water near the Atlantic Ocean.
Ten minute walk and the next beach up who has
had some Sedia characters in it, and I went. I
called the woman one time and I said, hey, your
husband won't talk to me. Why won't he talk to me?
And she's she saw the five oweight area code on
my I was using my phone. She said, where are
you calling from? Five oweight And I said, I'm calling
from minimum it's the name of our beach. And she said, oh,
how are you and I get married in the next
beach up in white Horse Beach? So I said, She said,
if you care for miniment, you're a good enough guy.
How do we get on the phone and talk to
this guy? Happy wife, happy life? How are we going
to He didn't have much, but he at least he
took my phot.
Speaker 2: Do you still actively think about this case?
Speaker 5: And I actively thing. I have a couple of other
stories that I'm working on. During the pandemic, I worked
on three other stories, one of them I'm still working on,
but none of them came out. Just really me, I'm
a good judge of which stories will pan out. But
is this a.
Speaker 2: Publishing issue or a writing issue? Which I did?
Speaker 5: It didn't. I thought there was a eureka at the
end of it probable cause, and if I get on it,
I'll be able to get something about this one was
this gentleman felt he had recovered or bought off of eBay,
of all things, a Rembrant, and he saw my passion
and my endurance on these stories. So he called me
up and he said, would you help me prove that
I've got a Rembrandt? And I there was good evidence,
but what I wrote, what I felt is it's just
halfway there. So he wasn't willing to go on the record,
so I said, okay, fine, So.
Speaker 4: Trying to figure out how you buy a Rembrandt on eBay.
Speaker 5: Don't forget there are so many, so many copies that
one of the ways I got dragged into this. The
Herald had a reporter who was on the story in
ninety seven. Yes, and he was shown what he was.
Speaker 2: Oh, I remember this. This was a fascinating story, and
he went a warehouse in New York.
Speaker 5: Went to he said, forty five minutes away from Boston.
We didn't I didn't know until I got on. This
is how I got on the story. The one of
the end of the skates me. He said, see help
us out here. The Herald's way ahead of us on this.
I did not think, knowing the reporter and knowing whom
he was speaking with, that there was credibility here. But
I said, listen, the Herald's got a fun page story.
We've seen it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that, we've seen story.
Speaker 5: So you got to jump in on that. And what
it turned out was the reporter himself, he's the Herald's
never ever acted it. But I did interview the reporter
from my book in a whole chapter on that. This
case of this, this saga, is that when the guy
whom he was dealing with, the na do Well, let
me say, took the painting out of its cylindrical where
it was being contained container and he held it over
his head. What the reporter said is that the painting
the canvas unfurled, and when he later spoke to the museum,
convinced him that Rembrandt was too lacquered, too schillact. I
could not you couldn't fold it, you couldn't bend it.
Speaker 2: It would be too stiff. From all.
Speaker 5: In one, I don't think I've ever used it, but
I have the nadowell who showed it to him. What
he wanted to do was to get the Herald to
buy into that he had the Rembrandt, and as a
result he would let another name had to well out
of jail.
Speaker 2: And here we go again with here you.
Speaker 5: Go get out of jail free card. And the Feds
never would let the second one out of jail. They said, no,
you got to give us up. If you got something,
show it to us. But I had that first, that
first guy's telephone book, and in the telephone book of
the small telephone book that he put in his pocket,
in it was the name of a Manhattan of company
that made up paintings. And I'm thinking he had approached them,
and if I called them, they said they didn't have anything.
They hadn't done this Rembrandt. But I'm thinking he went
to someone else and had had the brant. Must have
been a good job, because the Herald reporter said, I
saw it for a moment and it looked like the
real thing. That's why he reported, we've seen another dead end.
But still mastery. You couldn't make the stuff up. As
someone said to my book, here a cast of characters
that would make Martin Scorsese swooned in admiration. That's true.
That's true.
Speaker 2: With the success of Master Thieves, are you tempted to
write another book?
Speaker 5: I know what it takes to write a book when
it's an anatomy, and that's not the kind of book
I want to write again. I want to write a
book that and I don't want to write a book
that leaves the reader in anticipation hanging. I want to write.
I want that last chapter written, and I don't have
that yet. I don't have it for Master Thieves, and
I don't have it for this other case. I still
working the not the not the faull re brand, but
another case that I'm working.
Speaker 4: Steve, if someone has information or thinks they have information
about the stolen paintings from the gardener, who should they
be contacting? I doubt you want them reaching out to you.
Speaker 5: Stephen Kirchen at gmail dot com. I respond, But the
FBI Boston office, the gentleman named Jeff with a G.
Jeff Kelly, who will take every call in Anthony Maury,
who's the security director at the museum. I asked, I
think it's dot com. Excuse me, dot com? You'll you'll,
they will take your call, they will engage you, but please,
they will all of us have gone down rabbit holes. Here.
We'll listen to you, but please, if you're calling, have
something that leads somewhere, and don't let us have another
worthless pursuit. The deal the FBI made with Bulger was
that he was snitch on the Italian mar but he
and they would let him off on his criminality. They
would do. And let me tell you, he didn't give
up anything. I know who gave the Feds the information
to let them break into the end Julos and they
were the crime gang, Imparson, And it wasn't Bulger, it
was this other guy. But she said, I won't talk
to any Irish so wow, Polish of a Polish prosecutor
who had prosecuted Bulger. And he called her and he
said to her. I don't know what he said to her.
She doesn't return my phone calls. They never refer turned
my phone calls. Just the sister. How the game is played?
Speaker 4: And do you think David Turner's still out there right?
Speaker 5: Do you think he's been released? David certainly knows something,
probably knows where those two paintings were sold, let's say
two or three. The way I figure the one hinge
led to a door that led to an alley that
led to the Eureka, is that Donadi in Guarente, even
though a generation apart in an age, they were pals
in effett like this, they belonged to different games. Garente
belonged to the Frankslemmy gang, and Donati belonged to the
Ferrara game. But since they were from the same neighborhood,
they were bob they could talk. When Donati stole the
paintings and Ferrara didn't want him use to get out
of jail. I think Donadi went to Guarante because he
knew Guaranty was o g was an old and could
help him, And so he went to Guarente and maybe
he sold, gave whatever two of the big paintings to
Garenty on the promise Garenti would sell them and money
back to Donadi. Donadi was known to have gone during
the year and a half that he was alive after
the theft. He was known to have gone to Florida
and spent a lot of money at the race track
I sent and I think the FEDS know all about this,
but they won't give it up. Spent money at the
racetrack when he came back, he said to Garanty, I
want more money. I want more money, and Garante had
him killed or killed him himself. Turner was brought up
by Guarante. Turner even though not Italian, he came from
Becomp and he's a kid. He's in his forties when
he was hanging out with he was a teenager when
he was hanging out with Guarante. That Garente took him
under his wing. Turner turned out to be a very
capable killer, drug dealer, whatever. And I think he learned
from Garente what Garente did with the artwork. That's what
I think garrent When Garenty finally gave information to the Feds,
he gave them what he heard or will learn about
what Garente did with that Karenti killed Donati and what
he did with the artwork that he got from Donati.
And I've reached out to now garent Turner has been released.
His sentence was cut by seven years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw that in the documentary.
Speaker 5: That was after the book came out of focusing more
on him. I've approached Turner sense to sit for an interview,
but it took Crafty of a reporter, and I don't
think they used that word.
Speaker 2: Where is Turner? Is he in Massachusetts?
Speaker 5: He's probably home and and Brantry and especially back to
his own old neighborhood. But I think he's The Feds
know about a couple of murders, so they've got him
on a short leash. Yeah, he salutes, and it doesn't
give interviews to reporters. The Feds want to get it
the only way they're going to get it, which is
somebody picks up the phone. I think Turner has told
them everything that he knows, but he doesn't know where
Guarente did with the artwork.
Speaker 2: And of course one of the things we all have
to remember is the artwork could have been dispersed. It
could have easily gone to a different place.
Speaker 5: I hear you, Billy, and I agree it could have been.
Oh we didn't get back to Bulger Bulger head and
then Bulger was It's crazy social passion. He had an
enduring alliance with the IRA, So that's why we would
have done anything. These jerks, they have this belief, oh, Ira,
get rid of, get rid of the nineteenth county. There
ridiculous killing people.
Speaker 4: I have yet to come up to Boston to see
the Gardener Museum, but to come up. I would love
to Bill.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful.
Speaker 5: When I met it wasn't a guy that we just
walked through.
Speaker 2: But no, it was very and I didn't mention it
on the air. Remember you and I were walking up
the stairs to the second floor and ANTHONYA. Moorey came
right stairs.
Speaker 5: Anthony, I was my book had just come out. Anthony
was not pleased with the book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he gave you the once over and kept right
on going. I don't know if I told you this.
During that same time I saw you, I went and
listened to him speak. He was doing one of his
stop sets at a library on the South Shore.
Speaker 5: It wasn't Plymouth. He came to Plymouth, I think with Jeff,
with Jeff Kelly, but I don't think they said much.
Speaker 2: This was him by himself, but his wife or girlfriend
was with him. Very attractive Asian American moment, and they
were selling copies of his books, and he spoke. I
chatted with him afterwards and I name dropped you, but
it didn't see get me much. Yeah, he said.
Speaker 5: If books should have been written in two thousand and one,
nineteen ninety five, should not have been twenty fifteen, but.
Speaker 2: I'm really glad that it came out because it really
does get.
Speaker 5: I got a real good what do they call that
offer with option from Sony TV, And they had hired
a director of Adila and we were all going. But
my great friend's movie Black Mass didn't do well, even
though it had Johnny Depp. Yeah, and it's very was
so scary in that movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's creepy as hell.
Speaker 5: Ally would wash ardor for Boston Crime Books in twenty
fifteen when mine was Sony pulled away. They gave me
two big contracts, a lot of money, had some fun,
and I kept saying him, fly meet who's who won't play?
Who won't play? Fly me to Los Angeles, have them
take a meeting with me. We'll get to him.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, Yeah I fish.
Speaker 5: He said, listen, we're right now with DiCaprio in DiCaprio's
Best Friend is Oh Cide, the House rules.
Speaker 4: What's the name Tobby maguire.
Speaker 5: Toby McGuire. They played big Poker, so agent I said,
get me to that game in my elements, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: And they would have loved you because you're the real deal.
Speaker 5: Right, but he said, Steve, they make four four digit bets.
Speaker 2: Wow. Please tell Sony to back the bets.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Hey, trip, terrific time. Let me know if you
hear anything. Bill, please come up.
Speaker 4: Hey, I have every intention of coming up at some
point or another. I would love to go to the
museum summer waits come on all right?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Thank you, take care of Thanks Steve.
Speaker 4: The book is Master Thieves, the Boston Gangster who pulled
off the World's Greatest art heist, and the documentary is
This Is a Robbery available on Netflix. Stephen, thank you
so much for joining us today. This was a real pleasure.
Speaker 5: Bill, Kristen, thank you very much for having me. Great
to chat.
Speaker 4: That is going to do it for this episode of
mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll
see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas. Five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.