WEBVTT 1 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:29.760 Welcome to our next series of episodes from The Path 2 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:32.520 Went Chili. Ashley is doing a book tour right now, 3 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:34.960 so she's traveling and is quite busy, so we figured 4 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:37.280 we give her a couple more weeks off and Jewles 5 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:40.439 and I will record this week's episode alone and we'll 6 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:43.320 follow our standard format where I share details about the 7 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:47.280 case with Jewels and she'll give off her live reaction. So, Jules, 8 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:49.280 have you ever heard of the zip gun bomber? 9 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:51.280 No? I have not. 10 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:54.640 Well, this is an interesting one. I've only ever covered 11 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.560 it on a Patreon bonus episode of The Trail Went Cold, 12 00:00:57.600 --> 00:00:59.799 so this might be new to a lot of our listeners, 13 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.759 and it involves a serial offender who has never been identified. 14 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.799 If you haven't heard the term zip gun before, it's 15 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:09.840 a term they often used to describe crude, homemade firearms 16 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:13.239 that are manufactured by people who are not professionals. And 17 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:15.480 what happened is that, over the course of a decade, 18 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:20.239 five different people got mailed packages containing hollow books like cookbooks, 19 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:23.280 and it was booby trapped so that whenever they opened them, 20 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:26.319 a small little pistol would go off and fire bullets 21 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:29.680 towards them. One victim got killed during the nineteen eighties, 22 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.200 and it was quiet for another decade, but then four 23 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:34.920 more people over the course of three years would get 24 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.640 mail packages containing zip gun bombs, and thankfully, even though 25 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.680 bullets were fired, none of these victims were killed. But 26 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.799 the whole thing was so bizarre because investigators looked really 27 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:48.159 hard could not find a connection between all these victims. 28 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:50.599 It just appeared that they were picked at random. And 29 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.599 to this day, the perpetrator has never been identified and 30 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:55.439 no one can figure out what their motive was. 31 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:00.920 That's wild. There's something about this case. Maybe it's the 32 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:05.239 indiscriminate nature of it and the fact that the perpetrator 33 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.680 was never caught that reminds me of the Thailand all murders. 34 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:13.759 But there's also something about it that chain letters and 35 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.240 like urban legends are made of, right, or I guess 36 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.360 the urban legend of chain letters are made of. It's 37 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:25.919 a really compelling idea that somebody would target these people 38 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:29.080 seemingly at random. You have to wonder if there is 39 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:33.199 a victim that is buried within all of these victims 40 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:36.319 that they're trying to hide their connection to, and perhaps 41 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.719 it's just a hidden variable, and investigators have never found 42 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:40.360 that connection. 43 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:43.199 Yes, and we're definitely going to be making a lot 44 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:46.680 of comparisons to the Thailand all murders, and if any 45 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:48.719 of you are not familiar with it, that involved a 46 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:52.800 still unidentified offender who would go and put poisoned tail 47 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:55.960 in all capsules in bottles on the shelf, and then 48 00:02:56.039 --> 00:02:58.479 random people would purchase them, take them and then wound 49 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:01.520 up being poisoned. And in that particular case, it just 50 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.000 felt like someone who wanted to cause chaos, because there's 51 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.240 no way they could have known ahead of time which 52 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.800 people would take this poison tile and all and die. 53 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:11.039 But here they had to go to the trouble of 54 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:14.599 selecting someone's name, finding their address, and booby trapping a 55 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:17.400 book to mail to them and hoping that they would 56 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:19.919 open it and be shot and killed. But we still 57 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.919 have no idea why he selected these particular victims, and 58 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:27.120 why one of these incidents took place in the eighties 59 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:29.319 and all the rest took place in the nineties. Were 60 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:31.719 they all done by the same person or was it 61 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.919 a copycat someone who heard about the original murder from 62 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:37.560 the eighties and then just decided to try it themselves. 63 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.319 This is so interesting and it makes you wonder if 64 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:46.560 the original victim was the intended victim, and then the 65 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:50.639 killer was sated and they didn't feel the need to 66 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:54.719 continue killing, and perhaps there was a triggering moment in 67 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:58.159 their life, something stressful happened, a move, maybe the end 68 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:01.439 of a relationship, something to that effect, and it caused 69 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.360 them to ramp up again and continue on with what 70 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.400 they started. Or perhaps, like you said, it was a copycat. 71 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:13.240 But there's something about this that is so similar to 72 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.519 the Thailand Ald murders because it does seem indiscriminate, but 73 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:20.120 it does appear to be calculated in a way that 74 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:22.920 the tailand all murders were so chaotic. You don't know 75 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.040 who is going to pick up that bottle of tailanol 76 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:28.759 and purchase it, and so what the end result will 77 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:32.000 be will likely be murder or mayhem, but you don't 78 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:36.240 know who will be the victim, whereas this is very specific. 79 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:40.680 You're targeting specific individuals. And I really wonder how the 80 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:43.720 killer came upon these people to be victims. Did they 81 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:45.639 just meet them in a coffee shop, maybe they were 82 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.040 rude to them, They looked up their information in it 83 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:51.759 was the eighties, so I guess a phone book and 84 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:54.720 then decided to send something to their address, or did 85 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:57.519 you just pick these people at random? 86 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:00.240 That could be it. I mean, like you said, this 87 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.079 was the pre internet age, so it'd be very difficult 88 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:05.480 to look up someone's name if they did something like 89 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:08.519 was room to you in the coffee shop. But if 90 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.560 you're driven enough and you just want to hurt somebody 91 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.920 so badly, then there are ways to pull this off. 92 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.639 So the first crime took place in Brooklyn in nineteen 93 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:19.920 eighty two. All these crimes we're going to talk about 94 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:22.879 took place in New York City. The first victim seemed 95 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:25.639 like an unlikely target. Her name was Joan Kip. She 96 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:28.920 was a fifty four year old guidance counselor supervisor for 97 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.439 the Board of Education in school District number twenty, and 98 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:34.680 she lived a normal life in the Bay Ridge neighborhood 99 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.560 in Brooklyn with her fifty seven year old husband, Howard Kip, 100 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.639 and the couple also had two adult children who had 101 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:43.279 since moved out, a twenty seven year old son named 102 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.839 Craig and a thirty one year old daughter named Doreen. 103 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.600 Joan finished off work on the afternoon Friday, May the seventh, 104 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:52.959 and because the following weekend was Mother's Day. She was 105 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:55.439 planning to leave on a weekend outing with her husband 106 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.600 in order to spend the Mother's Day at the family 107 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.600 summer home in Connecticut. So when she got home, her husband, Howard, 108 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:05.360 had not arrived yet, but Joan came across a package 109 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:07.959 which was addressed to her and it had been delivered 110 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:11.240 earlier that day and was postmarked from Staten Island. And 111 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.279 when Joan opened the package, she discovered a series gourmet 112 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:17.160 cookbook inside and just assumed it was a Mother's Day 113 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:19.639 gift from someone. But when she opened the book, she 114 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.879 was taken by complete surprise when a series of bullets 115 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:25.279 were fired off at her and two of them wound 116 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.439 up striking the left side of her chest. Afterwards, they 117 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.759 looked into this whole package and they found out that 118 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:34.240 the cookbook was hollowed out and had been rigged as 119 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.720 a booby trap with a crewde homemade zip gun which 120 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:41.279 was assembled with a pair of six volt D batteries, 121 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.720 a metal plate with copper wiring from a brake line, 122 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:48.480 green stainless steel tubes, and a screw from a ballpoint 123 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:52.079 pan spring which was used as a trigger mechanism, and 124 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.600 three twenty two caliber cartridges were inside the steel tubes 125 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:58.560 and their bases had all been removed to expose the gunpowder. 126 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:01.399 The firing pins at all have been removed, and the 127 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:04.120 filament of a light bulb was stuck into the gunpowder 128 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:07.040 and connected to the wires from the battery, and the 129 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:09.519 device was rigged to go off when the book was opened, 130 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.560 causing the wires to spark the gunpowder and discharge the 131 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:16.240 three bullets in three different directions, and unfortunately two of 132 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:17.600 them wound up striking Joan. 133 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:22.199 This sounds pretty complex, and given that this was the 134 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:26.920 nineteen eighties, the individual that made this wouldn't have access 135 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:30.000 to the Internet or any of the dark web forums 136 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.560 that would give you the know how to build a 137 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.879 zip gun. But in this case, it would lend itself 138 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.079 to the idea that this individual either had some kind 139 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:47.240 of sophisticated knowledge about engineering or maybe potentially about firearms, 140 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.199 or I'm not sure, maybe they would have to have 141 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.959 knowledge about both, because this sounds as the way that 142 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.639 you've described it as it was pretty intricate. 143 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.120 It is. Yeah, like this is pretty much the only 144 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.839 documented case I know of where someone has sent a 145 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.160 package through the mail that has been rigged in this 146 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:07.959 specific fashion, and that's why this case stands out. I 147 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.279 don't know if any other zip gun bombers or any 148 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:13.120 other copycats who have rigged a device in this fashion. 149 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:15.839 And you're right, this is the pre internet world, so 150 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:17.720 it wouldn't have been that easy to dig up this 151 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:20.920 information about how to assemble something like this, which is 152 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.120 why it's easy to assume that this was someone with 153 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.439 a lot of mechanical knowledge, who had a lot of 154 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:28.160 experience with firearms and knew the proper way to rig 155 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:29.079 up a booby trap. 156 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:34.159 This is truly the stuff of nightmares. I can't imagine 157 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:38.200 what Joan must have experienced. She opens up this cookbook, 158 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.399 she thinks it's an early mother's ey gift from her children. 159 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:45.519 What a sweet gesture, and then she opens it, opens 160 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:49.600 up the cover, the zip gun gives two shots to 161 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:55.440 Joan's chest. She must have been so terrified and just 162 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:58.919 questioning who could do this? I mean, who knows what 163 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.159 goes through one's mind at that time, but to be 164 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.960 shot twice and to be all alone at home, it 165 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.639 would be so terrifying. 166 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:12.000 And unfortunately she did not survive. She did live long 167 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:13.840 enough that she managed to the phone and called for 168 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.480 medical assistance, and almost immediately thereafter, her husband, Howard, finally 169 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.039 came home and actually said that he heard the loud 170 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.200 noise of the guns firing while he was outside the 171 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.879 door and then ran inside. So Joan was still conscious 172 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:29.360 at this point and he heard her say quote there 173 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.600 may be others And while waiting for the ambulance to arrive, 174 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:35.679 Joan also told her husband to contact the school district's 175 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.120 superintendent so that she could warnant all the other educators 176 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.960 and school employees in the area about what happened. And 177 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.360 there's been some question about this. Did Joan have some 178 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:46.759 suspicions about who may have done this? Did she think 179 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:49.919 there was a specific individual who might be targeting guidance 180 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.639 counselors or educators in the area. But unfortunately she didn't 181 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:56.559 get an opportunity to be questioned because after she was 182 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.080 rushed to the hospital, she passed away three and a 183 00:09:59.120 --> 00:09:59.919 half hours later. 184 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:04.279 That is such a curious statement to be made by 185 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:07.960 Joan in that moment where she's thinking who could have 186 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:10.559 done this? The first thing that comes to her mind, 187 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:13.600 it seems, is that there could be an individual or 188 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:18.840 group of individuals that could be targeting educators, And it 189 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:21.879 makes me wonder if she'd received some type of threat 190 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.840 in the past from somebody, or maybe it was recent 191 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.840 and she just hadn't shared her concerns because she just 192 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:32.279 brushed it off, and that's why she automatically jumped to 193 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:36.240 thinking that it was educators that could be under threat. 194 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:39.519 Did you think that, Joan, meant that there could potentially 195 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:42.240 be more victims out there, like there could have been 196 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.919 victims in the past, or there could be future potential victims. 197 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:47.320 Is that how you took it? 198 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:50.120 I kind of did. Yeah. I mean, they did not 199 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.559 have any more packages that were mailed out, no other 200 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:55.440 educators in the area were targeted. But just the fact 201 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.080 that she's probably in complete shock and she still has 202 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.759 the wherewithal to say this to her husband and while 203 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.080 she's waiting for the ambulance to arrive, does give me 204 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:06.759 the impression that she might have had suspicions about somebody 205 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:09.480 and maybe thought that there was a plot a foot 206 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.440 to target educators. But like I said, unfortunately she passed 207 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.000 away before she could be questioned. But I know that's 208 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.039 always going to haunt her family, because obviously, if you 209 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:21.559 find a cookbook in a package, that sent you that's 210 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:24.720 rigged a fire off a gun, something that's completely unprecedent. 211 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:26.879 At that point, you're not immediately going to be thinking 212 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:28.600 who did this to me because it is such a 213 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:32.200 specific thing. So did she know someone who actually had 214 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:35.519 knowledge of building booby traps with guns? And that popped 215 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:37.879 into her head, but she just never got the opportunity 216 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:39.519 to say this person's name. 217 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:44.480 That is a terrifying thought. Given what Jona had experienced, 218 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:46.360 you'd think in that moment that she would be in 219 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.200 a state of shock, and maybe the coming up with 220 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.039 the fact that it could be somebody who is targeting 221 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:56.000 educators could be a result of shock. But I don't 222 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:59.480 want to write off what her gut feeling was or 223 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.720 what the thing that came to her mind was. And 224 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.919 it's just it's really hard not to think that Joan 225 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:09.399 knew something, or that she knew more. And it's just 226 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.840 so unfortunate that she passed away for a multitude of reasons, 227 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:17.000 but one of them being maybe she had a lead 228 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:18.600 as to who the killer was. 229 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.039 And what's also interesting is that they would find a 230 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.799 hastily scribbled note on the inside cover of the cookbook, 231 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.480 though it's unclear if Joan had the opportunity to read 232 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.279 it before she was shot. But even though the package 233 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.519 was specifically addressed to Joan, the message was addressed to 234 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.440 Howard and it said, quote Howard, You're dead first Joan, 235 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:42.039 then Craig and Doreen end quote, and the name Joan 236 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:45.399 was specifically crossed out. So this gave off the impression 237 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:48.080 that someone had a personal grudge against Howard and was 238 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.679 going to wipe out his family one by one. But 239 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:54.080 Craig and Doreen and Howard never received any more packages, 240 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:57.519 and Howard always maintains that he has no idea who 241 00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.720 would have wanted to do that, to send a booby 242 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.279 travel book and have such a personal grudge that they 243 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.480 would want to murder his entire family. 244 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.039 I truly feel for Howard and the whole family here. 245 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.960 I can't imagine how scared he must have been. But 246 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:17.000 this note makes me wonder a couple of things. Was 247 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:21.120 Howard the primary target or is this a red herring? 248 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.799 Are we trying to point away from Howard. If it 249 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:27.679 was Joan and there was a connection to Joan, it 250 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:30.559 might be advantageous for the killer to try to make 251 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.000 it look like Howard was the primary target and everybody 252 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:38.480 else was just collateral damage. But it's also giving a 253 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:42.480 Long Island serial killer vibe rex Huerman in the way 254 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:46.759 that he tortured the family members of the victims after 255 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.399 they were deceased. He did so with Shannon Gilbert's sister, 256 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.039 and I think he might have called other family members 257 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:57.360 of other victims as well. I'm not one hundred percent sure, 258 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:02.519 but there's just something so nefarious about that. A killer 259 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:06.399 that seems to get off on knowing that you're piling 260 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.279 on grief and trauma on top of the grief and 261 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:10.879 trauma that you've already caused. 262 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:14.720 That would make sense that maybe this person had no 263 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.600 intention of ever killing Howard or his children, but just 264 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.080 the idea that they would have to live in constant fear, 265 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.840 thinking that anytime they receive a package it's going to 266 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.559 be booby trapped. That could have been something that added 267 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:28.679 to the enjoyment for the perpetrator. And I don't know 268 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.679 if the perpetrator intended for this to happen, but it 269 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.120 also kind of made the police suspicious of Howard, wondering 270 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:38.000 if he orchestrated the whole thing and wrote the note 271 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.440 to make it look like he was being targeted because 272 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:42.639 they thought it was a bit convenient at first that 273 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:45.240 he just happened to arrive at home at the moment 274 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.279 that the gun went off so that he could discover 275 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:50.279 his wife's body. They think maybe he orchestrated this in 276 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.120 order to fabricate an alibi for himself. They never found 277 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.639 any evidence against him, and as far as anyone can tell, 278 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.639 there were no problems in their marriage, no motive he 279 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.960 would have had to murder his wife. Howard was described 280 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.879 as being very cooperative with investigators, but he began to 281 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:09.799 lose his temper, and his breaking point is when they 282 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.360 decided that they were going to take his daughter, Doreen 283 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:15.879 in for questioning on the same day as Joan's funeral, 284 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.879 As they literally showed up in the cemetery to pick 285 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:20.960 her up and bring her to the station for questioning 286 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:23.960 right after the funeral ended, and that really rubbed power 287 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:24.679 the wrong way. 288 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:29.559 Yeah, the way that the family retreated, especially to children, 289 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.919 and the timing of all this is yucky, But given 290 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:36.279 the time period, I don't think the way that law 291 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:39.480 enforcement was trained to deal with the children of murder 292 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:43.519 victims or families in general, is what it is today. 293 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.480 So when we're looking through the lens of twenty twenty five, 294 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:48.799 we're going to look back at the eighties and be 295 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:53.799 absolutely shocked at the insensitivity. And I know law enforcement 296 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.200 has come a long way since then, there's obviously still 297 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:01.360 room for improvement, and it varies so much between different 298 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:05.639 police departments or sheriff's departments. But I can kind of 299 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:11.320 understand what investigators were working with here in that Statistically speaking, 300 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.120 we all know that if someone is murdered, they're likely 301 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.200 murdered by somebody close to them, So it would make 302 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:19.720 sense that they would zero in on Howard early on, 303 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:25.159 especially in the absence of other leads. But I really 304 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:29.159 can't help but wonder with this killer. My gut keeps 305 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.519 telling me that there has to be one genuine victim. 306 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:37.200 Was this just subterfuge with pointing to Howard? And was 307 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.559 Joan really the victim? I mean, obviously Joan was the victim, 308 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.080 But when I say victim, I mean the one target 309 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.960 of the killer. Amidst all the victims and then these 310 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.639 other people later on are just kind of buried, and 311 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.240 that it was like, let's just have a whole bunch 312 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.360 of victims. They're not going to be able to connect me, 313 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:02.039 especially if I go look over there and over there 314 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.440 is Howard rather than looking at Joan, and then law 315 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.880 enforcement focuses on Howard. And another possibility is that the 316 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.319 whole family. Howard joaned the kids. They weren't the targets 317 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.960 at all, and he didn't have a grudge against the family. 318 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.720 There's just so many possibilities here because we don't have 319 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.480 the answers and these cases are still unsolved. 320 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.160 That is a possibility that maybe there wasn't a grudge 321 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.000 against anyone at the family, but this family was selected 322 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:35.119 at random. The perpetrator did his research to find out 323 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.000 who the children were, and just felt that I'm going 324 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:39.559 to kill one of the victims and I'm going to 325 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:42.599 torment the rest by making them think that I'm going 326 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.519 to come back and harm the others. And also I 327 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.279 don't know if this was planned, But now Howard and 328 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.880 his family have come under suspicion and the police are 329 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:54.599 extensively interrogating them thinking that they're involved, and that's only 330 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:58.039 going to add to their trauma. Well, this exact thing 331 00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:01.960 what happened to the Sun Craig, because he lived fairly 332 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:04.759 close in New York with his own wife just down 333 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.839 the street, and they started wondering if he orchestrated the 334 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:10.400 whole thing, because it turned out that Howard owned a 335 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:14.119 marine engineering business and Craig had been one of his employees, 336 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.519 but he apparently had difficulty adjusting to the work there, 337 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.319 and they ultimately made the mutual decision that the job 338 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.240 just wasn't for him, and Craig decided to move on. 339 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.279 So investigators started wondering if this could have given Craig 340 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.000 a potential motive for the crime, that he wanted to 341 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.119 get revenge on his father for causing him to lose 342 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.000 his job by orchestrating this elaborate scheme to kill his 343 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:40.319 mother in order to frame his father and cause him 344 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.799 a lot of trauma. But Howard did not believe this 345 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.839 for a second, maintaining that it was Craig who ultimately 346 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:47.839 made the decision to quit the job and that he 347 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:51.319 was not actually fired, and that it was pretty much mutual. 348 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:54.240 And he also said Craig is very devoted to his mother, 349 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:57.319 He had no hatred animasi, and even if he was 350 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.720 angry at me, I don't think he would murder his 351 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.839 own mother just to get back at me. But one 352 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.319 of the reasons that the police were suspicious to Craig 353 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.960 is that one of the traits of the business is 354 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.960 that they would install electrical lines into the boiler rooms 355 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.000 of ships, and investigators wondered if this might have given 356 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:18.039 Craig the necessary knowledge to assemble this booby trap device 357 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:21.240 which killed his mother. But Howard thought that was ridiculous, 358 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.400 because he said, one of the reasons we decided that 359 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.119 the job wasn't working out is because Craig just did 360 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.640 not adapt well to it. He did not have a 361 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:31.200 good time handling the technical side of it. It wasn't 362 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.240 really his thing. He wasn't a barely master of physics, 363 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:37.079 so they really thought that he would not even even 364 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.319 have the mechanical wherewithal to assemble a booby trap like 365 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:43.920 this successfully, let alone him not having a real motive 366 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:44.920 to kill his own mother. 367 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:49.920 So this is really interesting. But I always find the 368 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.720 testimony of parents on whether their child could or couldn't 369 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.680 have committed a crime not to be the most compelling. 370 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:00.839 I know that they know them very well, but parents 371 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.759 always want to see the best in their child, And 372 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.119 I don't know if Craig was a master of physics 373 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.880 like you said, or how much engineering know how would 374 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.920 have been available, but that my son isn't smart enough 375 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:16.839 to do this type of a defense. It doesn't really 376 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.240 land he worked there. I feel like he could have 377 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:22.559 had some knowledge. I'm not saying he did it, but 378 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.599 I'm just saying that Howard saying that he didn't do 379 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:30.559 it is giving me kind of Christopher Porko's mom kind 380 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.559 of a vibe where he attacked his mother and father 381 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:38.160 with an axe and the mother ended up surviving. She 382 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.200 was horribly disfigured. I believe she lost them of her 383 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.880 vision from the attack, but she said that she didn't 384 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:47.799 remember anything. She denied that Christopher had anything to do 385 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.839 with it. And so I think that a parent's love 386 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:55.440 for their child can supersede almost anything. They can believe 387 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.119 almost anything about their child, or I think convinced themselves 388 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.880 of a certain narrative. And I'm not saying at all 389 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:06.599 that's what's happening here, just that we don't know for 390 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.680 sure whether or not Craig would be capable. 391 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.079 Yeah, I do remember the Christopher Porco case, how his 392 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.759 mother was literally disfigured with an axe, and even though 393 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:18.839 her face was all messed up, she was still defending 394 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.279 her son and saying, I have no memory of what happened, 395 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:22.880 so I can't say that he's the man who a 396 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.559 guy who attacked me. But I know he's not capable 397 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.480 of this, even though the evidence against him was overwhelming. 398 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:31.559 But yeah, you're right, children do have blind spots towards 399 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.200 their kids. But this is one where I don't really 400 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.359 see much in the way of evidence against Craig. It's 401 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.160