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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right

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<v Speaker 1>back in to the Kathy Ruemler conversation with Congress. Question

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<v Speaker 1>by mister Lynch, Okay, did mister Epstein ever talk to

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<v Speaker 1>you about the nature of his dealings with mister Black? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I understood they had a business relationship, but I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>know any more details than that, mister Lynch. Yeah, what

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<v Speaker 1>in any particular business rumler, No, I didn't understand the

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<v Speaker 1>details of the business relationship. Question Were you ever aware

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<v Speaker 1>of any abuse allegations against mister Black? Answer? No, not

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<v Speaker 1>that I can. I know there has been some litigation subsequently,

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<v Speaker 1>meaning you know, after Epstein, you know, died. In more

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<v Speaker 1>recent years, there has been mister Black's been involved in

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<v Speaker 1>some civil litigation. I'm aware of that, mister Lynch. What

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<v Speaker 1>about affairs? Were you ever ever aware of mister Black

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<v Speaker 1>being involved in any affairs? Answer? I don't remember at

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<v Speaker 1>the time. I know there have been allegations again in

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<v Speaker 1>the media covering civil lawsuits or civil lawsuits that a

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<v Speaker 1>legend affair. Question I see, And were you ever aware

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<v Speaker 1>of mister Black requiring women to sign non disclosure agreements

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<v Speaker 1>in connection with any of that litigation. Answer. I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have knowledge of that, mister Lynch. Okay, that's all I have. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Were you aware that Brad Karp was working with mister

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<v Speaker 1>Black on any of the things Representative Lynch just described.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer No, I knew that. I knew that mister Carp

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<v Speaker 1>and mister Carp's law firm were the primary law firm

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<v Speaker 1>for Apollo, and at the time mister Black was the

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<v Speaker 1>CEO and chairman of Apollo, and in fact, Apollo referral

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<v Speaker 1>that I referred to earlier, I recall came because Paul

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<v Speaker 1>Weiss had a conflict on that particular on that particular matter,

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<v Speaker 1>so there was an opportunity for another law firm to

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<v Speaker 1>step in, whereas typically Paul Weiss was handling most of

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<v Speaker 1>Apolo's matters redacted. Thank you. That concludes our hour. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>go off the air, mister Grant. We'll go back on

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<v Speaker 1>the record. It's fifty five, and I believe mister Biggs

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<v Speaker 1>has some questions. Mister Biggs, I do, thank you so much,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I just want to clarify some things to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure I understood them. Rooumler. Sure, question you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>that you knew mister Epstein had a girlfriend. She looked

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<v Speaker 1>about thirty and her name was Crenia Roumler. Yeah. Question

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<v Speaker 1>and how did you know of his relationship with her? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I met her on a couple of occasions, and he

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<v Speaker 1>introduced her as his girlfriend and referred to her, you

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<v Speaker 1>know from time to time, you know, general passing as

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that someone the way that someone refers

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<v Speaker 1>to their significant other, you know, Crinia and I you know,

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<v Speaker 1>went to you know this thing or that thing. Question

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<v Speaker 1>and you mentioned Darren Endyke. Did you know Darren Endyke

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<v Speaker 1>previous to the twenty nineteen indictment of mister Epstein. Roumler, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I had met mister Endyke once in person. Biggs, did

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<v Speaker 1>you know he was mister Epstein for lack of a

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<v Speaker 1>better term, maybe his criminal defense attorney or someone that

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein had retained made maybe even before the twenty

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen indictment. Answer. I understood mister Endyke to play a

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<v Speaker 1>different role for Epstein. I understood that mister Biggs a

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<v Speaker 1>different role from what answer. I did not understand mister

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<v Speaker 1>Indyke to be a criminal defense attorney. Biggs okay. Question

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<v Speaker 1>I understood him to be his in house counsel who

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<v Speaker 1>actually worked more onlike business contracts, you know, those types

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<v Speaker 1>of things. Question, So, were you surprised that, ostensibly it

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<v Speaker 1>sounds like a commercial transaction attorney was putting together a

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<v Speaker 1>defense team for mister Ebstein. Answer, well, I understood that

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<v Speaker 1>he was his legal He was one of his legal advisors.

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<v Speaker 1>But unlike the other legal representatives, the other lawyers who

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<v Speaker 1>had who you know, had multiple other clients. My understanding

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<v Speaker 1>is that mister Ebstein was mister Indyke's only client. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>he was like Tom Hagen. Remember in The Godfather, Tom

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<v Speaker 1>Hagen had one client, samwood in Dyke. The only difference

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<v Speaker 1>is Tom Hagen was actually a good lawyer. Mister Biggs,

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<v Speaker 1>would you say he was in house? Answer right? Question okay. Answer,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the way I thought about it and understood it.

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<v Speaker 1>Question okay, And so you received a call, I believe,

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<v Speaker 1>from mister Epstein informing you that he'd been indicted on

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps the day that he was that the indictment was announced. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>not exactly the sequence as I remember it is that

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<v Speaker 1>he called me to tell me that he'd been arrested.

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<v Speaker 1>Question Okay, answer, but the indictment was which would have

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<v Speaker 1>been just mechanically what happens in general practice. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>talking about specifics, but from my experience as a prosecutor,

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<v Speaker 1>an indictment is returned from the grand jury to a court,

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<v Speaker 1>and then an arrest warrant is issued. So that's what

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<v Speaker 1>I assumed that happened there, and then the indictment itself

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<v Speaker 1>was unsealed and made public upon the arraignment date. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>so did you hear from him that he had been

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<v Speaker 1>arrested Rumler on the day of his arrest? That was

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<v Speaker 1>my understanding that he was arrested, and he called me

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<v Speaker 1>and informed me that he had been arrested. Did question?

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<v Speaker 1>And if I remember your testimony right, it was a

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<v Speaker 1>short conversation. He informed you that he had been arrested,

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<v Speaker 1>and you basically told him to call his lawyer Rumler. Yeah. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>it seems were you interested at all and why you

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<v Speaker 1>would have called you to tell you that he was arrested. Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>It didn't surprise me, because again I knew him, and

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<v Speaker 1>I was, you know, quite a well known defense attorney,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think he thought that I was a good lawyer,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think so in that regard. I guess I

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't surprised. I know if I had been if I

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<v Speaker 1>had been like a tax attorney and he called me,

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<v Speaker 1>that would have been a bit more surprising. But given

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<v Speaker 1>the nature of my practice, it didn't really surprise me. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>But he didn't request that you provide any kind of

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<v Speaker 1>counsel or advice at all. I know that when I

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<v Speaker 1>practiced as a defense attorney, almost everybody asked for a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of advice when they would call Ms. Rumler.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very familiar with that question. Yeah, so kind of.

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<v Speaker 1>I was surprised when you testified. Oh, he just said, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I got arrested, and you said, call your attorney Rumner. Yeah. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious to know what more might have been said,

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<v Speaker 1>if anything. Answer Again to my recollection, it was a

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<v Speaker 1>very short call, and he seemed to me to be

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<v Speaker 1>in a state of shock, and I was shocked. I was,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, stunned and didn't understand, you know, what the

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<v Speaker 1>guy could possibly have been arrested for. Again, just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>based on my understanding. Questions, So he didn't tell you

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<v Speaker 1>what the allegations was, where the charge was answer, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't believe he did. And I'm not sure that he

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<v Speaker 1>knew at the time. I'm not sure how much he

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<v Speaker 1>was told because again, you know, the arrest would typically

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<v Speaker 1>be executed by you know, the agents, the FBI agents,

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<v Speaker 1>and in my experience, they don't really get into great

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<v Speaker 1>detail about, you know, what the indictment says or anything

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<v Speaker 1>like that. Question. Did he reveal whether he'd already talked

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<v Speaker 1>to mister Endyke before he called you? Answer? I don't

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<v Speaker 1>remember whether he did or not. In my mind when

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<v Speaker 1>I said you should call your lawyer, I was not

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about Darren Endyke as a person he should call.

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<v Speaker 1>I was thinking he should call his defense attorney. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>so he had a different defense attorney answer he did? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>And who was that answer? Martin Weinberg? Question? And do

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<v Speaker 1>you know if he had reached out to Martin Weinberg

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<v Speaker 1>before he called you? Answer? I don't know. Question, And

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<v Speaker 1>I guess I'll just leave that alone. I just have

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<v Speaker 1>one more area. I wrote down just a few adjectives

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<v Speaker 1>you used to describe mister Epstein earlier today. Extremely arrogant?

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<v Speaker 1>Did I get that right? Miss Rumner? Yeah? Question? Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>a buncular Miss Ruemner, Yeah. Question, which is not a

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<v Speaker 1>term we usually hear around this table, but I thought

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<v Speaker 1>it was interesting and you said that he was I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if you used the term in veterate, but

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<v Speaker 1>you implied he's a mans plainer. Rumler, he was a

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<v Speaker 1>man's plainer. Indeed, question okay, without asking you what a

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<v Speaker 1>man's plainer is, I'll leave that one alone. It makes

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<v Speaker 1>me wonder if you could And this is not a

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<v Speaker 1>question that is unique to you. This is a question

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<v Speaker 1>that has been asked to many of the witnesses wh

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<v Speaker 1>knew him or work with him. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein, you knew him the way you described him,

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<v Speaker 1>is the kind of man who would have ended up

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<v Speaker 1>killing himself, Miss Rumler, I believe he killed himself, mister Biggs,

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<v Speaker 1>So that's a yes, Miss Rumler. Yeah, I believe he

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<v Speaker 1>killed himself. I don't know that I can shed a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of light on whether he's the type of person

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<v Speaker 1>who would kill himself, but I believe that he killed himself.

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<v Speaker 1>Question So, okay, I'm not asking for a psychological profile here,

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<v Speaker 1>just you know, just you then, were not surprised to

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<v Speaker 1>hear that the unvuncular Epstein had killed himself. Roumler I

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<v Speaker 1>was very surprised, Biggs. You were surprised, Rumler, I was

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<v Speaker 1>very surprised. And when I learned when I learned the news,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the first thoughts I had was how in

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<v Speaker 1>the world would he know how to do that? So,

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<v Speaker 1>you know that that came to my mind. And of course,

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<v Speaker 1>given you know, my experience in the Justice Department and

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<v Speaker 1>when I was a principal associate Deputy Attorney General, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people would call that the pad dag. When I was

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<v Speaker 1>a pad dag, the Bureau of Prisons, you know, fell

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<v Speaker 1>under the dag. The Deputy Attorney General's office a super

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, the primary responsibility of the Bureau of Prisons,

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<v Speaker 1>the federal Bureau of Prisons, is to keep the community

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<v Speaker 1>safe and keep the inmates safe. And obviously, for someone

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<v Speaker 1>at the time with mister Epstein's profile to have been

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<v Speaker 1>in a situation where he could kill himself was a massive,

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<v Speaker 1>massive failure at the Bureau of Prisons. Question, Uh huh.

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<v Speaker 1>You haven't looked at any any report or anything like that,

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<v Speaker 1>the post mortem or anything like that, Rumler, I haven't,

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<v Speaker 1>other than what I've read in terms of media coverage

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<v Speaker 1>of those reports. But I haven't read. I believe the

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<v Speaker 1>Inspector General did a report around the circumstances of Epstein's suicide,

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<v Speaker 1>and I have not read that question absolutely, last question,

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<v Speaker 1>because I want to make sure I get this right.

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<v Speaker 1>Were you the first person that he called the day

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<v Speaker 1>he was arrested for the charges? Rumler? I don't know, Biggs. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for letting me take time. Mister Grant, Yes, sir,

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<v Speaker 1>question by mister Grant. Just to follow up a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of things mister Biggs brought up. How did you hear

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<v Speaker 1>the news that mister Epstein had killed himself? Answer? It

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<v Speaker 1>popped up on my phone in a New York post.

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<v Speaker 1>You know how you get those pop ups. Question So

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't from an associate of his or someone in

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<v Speaker 1>his orbit? Answer no, I don't believe, so I learned

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<v Speaker 1>through the media. Question did you discuss it with his

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<v Speaker 1>death with anyone in his orbit or any of his associates? Answer? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>in his orbit, I at some point discussed it with

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<v Speaker 1>his lawyer. Question and that lawyer being answered mister Weinberg,

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<v Speaker 1>and I certainly would have discussed it, discussed it with

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<v Speaker 1>mister Carp because you know, mister Carp knew mister Epstein.

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<v Speaker 1>I discussed the client that Epstein and I shared, Miss

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<v Speaker 1>the Rothschild question and gets cut off by Rumler. So

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<v Speaker 1>those are the ones I remember. I remember I may

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<v Speaker 1>have discussed it. Biggs jumps in again. Could I ask

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<v Speaker 1>there was a question I wanted to ask you with

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<v Speaker 1>regard to Arianna, I believe to a Rothschild, and what

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<v Speaker 1>was the extent of that relationship between mister Epstein and

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<v Speaker 1>miss Rothschild, Miss Rumler? It was a business relationship as

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<v Speaker 1>far as I observed, he was, you know, an adviser

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<v Speaker 1>to her. Biggs, was he managing the money? Answer? I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know. I don't not to my knowledge, but I

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have any information about that one way or the other. Biggs,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you. Mister Grant had to follow up on a

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<v Speaker 1>previous point. You said that you discussed news of mister

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein's death with his attorney, mister Rothchild and mister carp

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<v Speaker 1>By discussed it with them. What do you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 1>What was the discussion? Answer? Oh gosh, just an expression

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<v Speaker 1>of shock. Shock. And all these events, the arrest, the indictment,

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<v Speaker 1>the suicide were all quite shocking to me. And again

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<v Speaker 1>this is someone who I knew and I had dealt with,

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<v Speaker 1>and so it was quite surreal to be, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And again, the media coverage around Epstein's indictment in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen was very extensive, and the idea that the Bureau

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<v Speaker 1>of Prisons you know, could have been so negligent in

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<v Speaker 1>a core duty to have allowed him to commit suicide

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<v Speaker 1>was shocking and appalling to me. Mister Biggs, I have

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<v Speaker 1>to go vote mister Fishman. Good luck with that. Ms. Rumler,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you, Congressman, mister Biggs. Yes, thanks. All right, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next

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<v Speaker 1>episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where

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<v Speaker 1>we left off. All the information that goes with this

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<v Speaker 1>episode can be found in the description box.