1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,439 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 15 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,799 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 5: We're joined today by Darren Schaefer here to talk about 17 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,240 the podcast, the Cooper Vortex and school us on everything 18 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:54,320 dB Gooper. 19 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: Darren, Welcome to the podcast. 20 00:00:56,439 --> 00:00:58,119 Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited 21 00:00:58,159 --> 00:00:58,560 to be here. 22 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 5: We're so happy to have you because we know that 23 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,920 in our two episodes on dB Cooper, we did not 24 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,200 even begin to scratch the surface of everything that there 25 00:01:08,359 --> 00:01:10,400 is to know in the I guess we'll call it 26 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:12,719 the dB Cooper space, or we'll use your term for 27 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,239 the dB Cooper Vortex. Start by telling us a little 28 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,519 bit about yourself and your podcast. 29 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 6: My name is Darren Schaeffer. I just I fell into 30 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,920 what is called the Cooper vortex probably about ten eleven 31 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,840 years ago now at this point in time, and then 32 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,640 somewhere along that line, I started my own podcast, The 33 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,519 Cooper Vortex, creatively named and just it's something that I 34 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,200 can't escape. The term the Cooper vortex was coined by 35 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,439 Mark Meltzer because once you fall into this vortex, you 36 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,359 cannot escape. And boy, is that true? 37 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 5: Do you actually first hear about the dB Cooper case. 38 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:54,560 I first heard about it. 39 00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:56,879 Speaker 6: I grew up in Woodland, Washington, which is like the 40 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:00,760 closest town to where his drop zone was believed to 41 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,599 have been at that point in time. And I first 42 00:02:03,599 --> 00:02:06,760 heard about it on Unsolved Mysteries, like watching a rerun 43 00:02:06,799 --> 00:02:10,800 of that probably on some like after school thing with 44 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,639 my sister. And then it was like, hey, in this 45 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:15,919 guy at the Portland International Airport and we're like Portland, 46 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,360 that's over, that's right over there that's close to us, 47 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,080 and then in Seattle it's oh Seattle, that's right over 48 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,520 here too, and then jumped out near Ariel, Washington, so 49 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,039 we know where that is. That's two towns over. This 50 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:29,960 is so crazy. This is right in our backyard, and 51 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,000 then just grown up there. It's a local story, something 52 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,639 I had a passing interest in until I really got 53 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:36,159 sucked in. 54 00:02:36,759 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: So how old were you at this point, Darren, when 55 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,000 you first saw the unsolved mysteries and started talking to 56 00:02:42,039 --> 00:02:43,159 your sister about the case. 57 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,719 Speaker 6: I would have been like ten years old talking with 58 00:02:47,759 --> 00:02:48,919 my sister about the case. 59 00:02:49,039 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: Not so much. 60 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 6: It was more just wow, this crazy thing happened, like 61 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,800 basically in our backyard. That's so crazy, and it's unsolved. 62 00:02:55,879 --> 00:02:56,879 I wonder what happened. 63 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,479 Speaker 5: We chatted off air for a little bit the first 64 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,759 time that we talked, and you said something really interesting. 65 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,199 You said that you aren't a true crime fan, which 66 00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:10,199 is a little hard for me to understand, but that's okay. 67 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,759 It's not for everybody. What differentiates the dB Cooper case 68 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,000 from other true crime cases? What draws you to it 69 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,280 and makes it interesting? 70 00:03:21,199 --> 00:03:24,199 Speaker 6: I think most true crime is some sort of a 71 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,280 personal story. This happened to this person they weren't expecting it, 72 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,759 or this person did this to this other person. The 73 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,319 dB Cooper case, I think is a lot different because 74 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,719 at its basis it's a heist, so it's more along 75 00:03:40,759 --> 00:03:43,879 the lines of bank robbery or a train robbery. In 76 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,319 this case is an airplane robbery more than what would 77 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,120 be a sort of typical true crime story. And all 78 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:55,319 of everyone's saying this in this doc on Netflix is 79 00:03:55,319 --> 00:03:58,599 so good. I'll check it out, But I'm not really 80 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:01,800 a true crime fan because it personally it makes me angry. 81 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,479 I'm like, I'm gonna round up a posse and we're 82 00:04:04,479 --> 00:04:07,439 gonna go get this guy. And that's not what I'm 83 00:04:07,479 --> 00:04:09,919 looking for. When I want to be entertained, it's more, Oh, 84 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,680 I want I want to laugh or I want to 85 00:04:11,719 --> 00:04:15,120 be educated more than I don't want to get angry 86 00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:18,480 about something that happened to someone or something someone else did. 87 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:22,639 Speaker 2: One of the things that you mentioned to us was 88 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:28,160 that there's a big difference in the demographics for your podcast, 89 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,439 The Cooper Vortex, and the average true crime podcast, if 90 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:34,800 there is such a thing. What are some of those 91 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,040 differences in terms of the audience. 92 00:04:37,759 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 6: Along this podcasting journey that I've had. I've met some 93 00:04:40,879 --> 00:04:43,680 other people with some shows, and I found it really 94 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,639 interesting that most of the people in the true crime 95 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,079 space would say my audience is about seventy five percent female, 96 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,360 And when I first gotten in the dB Cooper case, 97 00:04:54,759 --> 00:04:57,480 I would say it was ninety five percent men, And 98 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,800 with some other media in my podcast, I would say 99 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,040 that's changed a little bit, but I would still say 100 00:05:04,079 --> 00:05:07,680 that it's probably eighty percent men at this point in time. 101 00:05:08,319 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: Well, then the first question becomes, why do you think 102 00:05:11,199 --> 00:05:11,720 that is. 103 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 6: It's a question that I ask on my show to 104 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:19,120 almost every guest because it's very odd. It's not just 105 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,639 oh yeah, my show's fifty to fifty when most lean female. No, 106 00:05:23,199 --> 00:05:27,680 my show is completely the opposite. Having talked to many 107 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,879 different guests about it, I think it boils down to 108 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:34,240 a few factors. One is the type of case that 109 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,279 this is, like I said, a heist, and then the 110 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,480 other is the style of the case and the means 111 00:05:40,519 --> 00:05:43,040 and by which he did it. And so I think 112 00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:45,800 the audience for this, just by the fact that it's 113 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,600 a heist would lean more towards men. But then the 114 00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:52,319 way Cooper did it using an airplane and jumping out 115 00:05:52,319 --> 00:05:56,680 of the airplane. This case really appeals to pilots, it 116 00:05:56,759 --> 00:06:01,120 really appeals to skydivers, it really appeals to people who 117 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,199 are in the military and formerly military, as well as 118 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,279 aviation fans. And now the vast majority of all the 119 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,800 groups I just mentioned skew way heavily male. So I 120 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,639 think all of those things really contribute to the fact 121 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,519 that if you go to Cooper Kahn, if you get 122 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,439 on forums or a MySpace group, that's the reason that 123 00:06:22,879 --> 00:06:24,639 it's going to be mostly dudes in there. 124 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 5: Okay, before we stray away from Cooper Kahn, tell us 125 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:29,959 about Cooper KHN. 126 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:30,439 Speaker 3: Please. 127 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 6: Cooper Kahn's been going on for a while. There were 128 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,839 a couple early versions. Jeffrey Grace held the first one 129 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,079 in Gosh, I want to say that was two thousand 130 00:06:40,079 --> 00:06:45,399 and twelve of twenty eleven, don't quote me exactly on that. 131 00:06:45,759 --> 00:06:48,439 And then Eric Youulss picked up the torch, and I 132 00:06:48,439 --> 00:06:53,040 think the first one he did was twenty eighteen, and 133 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:56,839 then twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. I believe there 134 00:06:56,879 --> 00:07:00,480 were no Cooper KHN for obvious reasons. 135 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,959 Speaker 2: And are these typically held in the Pacific Northwest? 136 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, either in Portland or Seattle. 137 00:07:07,399 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 5: So is it like a one or two day convention 138 00:07:09,519 --> 00:07:12,519 or like, how does this work when we talk about 139 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:16,439 crime con which is what we're most familiar with, I imagine 140 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:18,120 it's very different from Cooper KHN. 141 00:07:18,199 --> 00:07:20,079 Speaker 3: So can you tell us a little bit about it? 142 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:22,279 Who could you see guesting there? 143 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,319 Speaker 6: Yeah? Con it's very interesting because there's two different aspects 144 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,519 to it. There's a very collegiate presentation and hey, here's 145 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,959 this evidence, and here's my analysis of this evidence. And 146 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:37,759 here's this speaker that's going to come on and tell 147 00:07:37,839 --> 00:07:41,800 us about this angle or about their expertise in titanium 148 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:45,560 for example, or some obscure aspect of the case. And 149 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,120 then there's the getting together and drinking and just talking 150 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,519 about Cooper and the community and the hangout aspect of it. 151 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:56,399 It's just a great time if you're super into this case. 152 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,079 There's going to be a bunch of authors from the 153 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,360 books you've read, people you have seen on documentaries or 154 00:08:02,399 --> 00:08:07,040 on podcasts, for on YouTube channels speak and talk and 155 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,360 then you just hang out with them and ask him questions. Hey, 156 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:11,399 I know you covered this, but what do you really 157 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:14,839 think about it? 158 00:08:14,879 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 5: Is there a dB Cooper lookalike contest or anything. There's 159 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,560 no role playing at crime conton, so thankfully we've been 160 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:23,720 spared that. But I'm just curious do people show up 161 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:24,360 in the gray suit? 162 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 6: And there was dB Cooper Days, which was held at 163 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,759 the Aerial Store. I think it was the Friday after 164 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,559 Thanksgiving every year and that went on for gosh, thirty 165 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,720 five years or something like that until the Aerial Store 166 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,360 closed down. And that was just a party that was 167 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:49,519 like a Hey, we think dB Cooper landed in our 168 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,440 backyard and we're going to throw this party in his honor, 169 00:08:53,159 --> 00:08:56,000 and if he wants to show up, that's cool. And 170 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,600 they did have a dB Cooper lookalike contest, but Cooper 171 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,519 cause it's more like informative and educational in the main 172 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:08,720 event than a looklike contest sort of thing, although there 173 00:09:08,759 --> 00:09:12,039 have been people that have shown up in dB Cooper GARB. 174 00:09:13,039 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 5: What was the impetus for you to start your podcast 175 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:19,360 on dB Cooper? Was it just that you needed to 176 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:21,600 fill a void that wasn't there. 177 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:25,519 Speaker 6: Absolutely, And a lot of things happened at the exact 178 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,759 same time. So I really got heavy into this and 179 00:09:29,799 --> 00:09:34,360 my wife bought me Jeffrey Gray's book Skyjack in probably 180 00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:36,879 twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen. It had been out for 181 00:09:36,919 --> 00:09:39,360 a while, and I was like cool, And then it 182 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,360 set on my bookshelf for a while. I was traveling 183 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,639 for work. I brought that to read and read that 184 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,679 book and I was like, dang, there is so much 185 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,960 more to this case than I was aware of, and 186 00:09:51,039 --> 00:09:53,399 it goes so much deeper, and there's so much crazy 187 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,639 stuff going on here. And that book sort of references 188 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,039 he's working with this private investigator, Skip Portius, and a 189 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:03,720 certain point in the book, Skip says, Hey, I'm not 190 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,440 going to work with you anymore. I'm going to write 191 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,879 my own book about this. And so I thought, this 192 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:10,440 book is a few years old, maybe that's out, and 193 00:10:10,519 --> 00:10:12,960 it was It's Into the Blast by Skip Portius and 194 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:15,399 Robert Blevins. So I ordered that book. I read that 195 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,440 book and I was like, Okay, it's Kenny Christiansen case closed. 196 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,720 I know who dbe Cooper was Into the Blast mentions 197 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:28,879 an online forum, the drop Zone, which is now skydiveforum 198 00:10:29,039 --> 00:10:31,960 dot com. I believe I got on there and there 199 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,919 was a group of people on there just argue a 200 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,879 NonStop about dB Cooper. But one thing that they did 201 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,360 was completely tear apart all of the work that Skip 202 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,919 Portius Robert Blevins had done on Kenny Christensen. And looking 203 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,840 at that, I was like, Okay, if it's not Kenny Christensen, 204 00:10:46,919 --> 00:10:49,879 then who is it? And then that led me to 205 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:53,080 Bruce Smith's book dB Cooper and the FBI, which had 206 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,919 just came out. Fantastic, phenomenal book. I can't recommend it enough. 207 00:10:57,159 --> 00:11:00,120 Third edition is out and now I believe. Then I 208 00:11:00,159 --> 00:11:04,080 started a job where I worked completely alone. So I 209 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,639 was listening to talk radio and podcasts for forty to 210 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,480 sixty hours a week. And this is twenty fifteen ish, 211 00:11:12,879 --> 00:11:16,759 and so I got on Apple Podcasts and I was like, 212 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,960 I've already ran out of all the shows I want 213 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,000 to listen to. What else should I find? So I 214 00:11:22,039 --> 00:11:24,120 was like, I'm into this dB Cooper thing right now. 215 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:28,080 So I typed dB Cooper into the search bar, and 216 00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:30,399 at that point in time, there were about twenty different 217 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,120 shows that had done one episode on dB Cooper. So 218 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,120 I just started burning through them. I found it frustrating 219 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,679 because I was so deep into it by this point 220 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,480 in time that covering the case for twenty minutes and 221 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,200 then going over five suspects, and then at the end 222 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,120 we think it's this guy. By the end of those 223 00:11:49,159 --> 00:11:52,200 I was fast forwarding them going over the hijacket because 224 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:53,639 I was like, I don't want to hear that. Let 225 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,240 me just hear what their theories and conjecture on the 226 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,519 case are. And then I was listening to this podcast 227 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,440 called Mormonism, which is just about the history of Mormonism 228 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:05,639 in the United States. 229 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: I was gonna say, and what's the connection. 230 00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 6: The connection is listening to that show. His show became 231 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,240 successful enough that it was something he did as a hobby, 232 00:12:17,399 --> 00:12:21,279 like driving an interstate battery truck. To he quit his 233 00:12:21,399 --> 00:12:24,679 job and was just doing this podcast. I thought to myself, 234 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,840 what I really want to hear is long form interviews 235 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,120 with the authors of these books and the people arguing online. 236 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,279 And if this guy can make a real podcast about 237 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,039 Mormon history, then I can make the podcast that I 238 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,440 want to listen to. So I decided I'll give this 239 00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:45,159 a shot. But I'm not known in this community at all. 240 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,879 I don't even have a screen name on the website. 241 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,240 So I decided I'm going to reach out to five 242 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:52,480 people that I won on the show, and if two 243 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,559 of those five agree to be on my show that 244 00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:58,159 doesn't exist, then I'll create it. And so I reached 245 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:00,440 out to five people and all five of them said yes, 246 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:01,799 I'd love to be on the show. 247 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:04,039 Speaker 7: Even though the show didn't even exist. At that point, 248 00:13:04,279 --> 00:13:08,120 the show didn't exist. So I googled what equipment I 249 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,200 would need to start a podcast, and then loaded up 250 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,080 my car and I did all five of those interviews 251 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,960 in person, driving across the Pacific Northwest. 252 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,759 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, What made you decide to do the podcast interviews? 253 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,759 When you launched the Cooper Vortex in person? 254 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 6: Two different podcasters it would be Tim Ferriss and Joe Rogan, 255 00:13:30,759 --> 00:13:34,080 and both of them by then had discussed how much 256 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,399 better an interview is in person than remotely, and at 257 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:43,240 that time, zoom wasn't where it is today. Basically all 258 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,320 my interviews pre twenty twenty I traveled to do those 259 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:48,320 interviews in person. 260 00:13:49,039 --> 00:13:49,519 Speaker 2: Wow. 261 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:53,039 Speaker 5: I actually really loved that idea, and it had to 262 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,360 have been fascinating to be able to get out there 263 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,519 meet people, get a feel for their energy. It probably 264 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,200 puts the use a little bit too, that they're able 265 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,639 to talk with you see you in person. 266 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 3: That sounds really neat. I would love to be able 267 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:07,720 to do that. 268 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: What's interesting too is that and Kristin and I we 269 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,240 may have forgotten this ourselves when we started Mind Over Murder. 270 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,399 This is just before COVID. Now, I know there's a 271 00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:24,159 big joke about how many podcasts got started as a 272 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,200 result of the pandemic. We actually started just before the pandemic. 273 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,840 Our original intention was to have more face to face interviews. 274 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,080 And I had moved back from Los Angeles to Connecticut, 275 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,000 which at least put me closer to Virginia, where Christen's based, 276 00:14:43,159 --> 00:14:46,039 and particularly with the Colonial Parkway murders one of our 277 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,679 key cases, that's a Virginia case as well. But we 278 00:14:49,919 --> 00:14:52,879 didn't end up going down that road, if you will, 279 00:14:53,159 --> 00:14:57,480 because we did end up being increasingly dependent on doing 280 00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:01,879 interviews via the computer. And and so even today now 281 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,840 for everybody's benefit, we're on zoom and I can see Kristin, 282 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:07,639 and I can see Darren, and they can see me. 283 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:12,600 We don't use the visual component of what we record. 284 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,200 But it's very interesting that you chose to go and 285 00:15:17,279 --> 00:15:20,600 meet with these people face to face, and interestingly, so 286 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:23,000 many of them are in the Pacific Northwest. 287 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, and I was living in Boise Idaho at the time, 288 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,600 so not that far. I think my farthest one was 289 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:32,200 like eight hours, although I did drive from Boise to 290 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:36,799 Great Falls, Montana, which is like eleven hours to interview 291 00:15:36,879 --> 00:15:38,000 John Cameron. 292 00:15:38,399 --> 00:15:40,639 Speaker 5: So you got some nice travel time in there too. 293 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:44,480 Let's go ahead and get into the suspect aspect of 294 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:47,960 the case before we talk about the community around dB Cooper. 295 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:51,399 It seems to me, and again please correct me if 296 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,279 I'm wrong, because I'm not an expert, it seems to 297 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,919 me like the dB Cooper suspects seem to fall into 298 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,360 two categories, the likely category and the unlikely category. Who 299 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,679 is your favorite unlikely suspect? They probably aren't D. B. Cooper, 300 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:06,159 but you like their backstory. 301 00:16:06,559 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 6: There's going to be two of them. My favorite by 302 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:14,200 far is Barb Dayton, the transgender suspect of Washington State. 303 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:17,480 That was one of my first five interviews I did. 304 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:20,519 I interviewed the Foremans, who wrote the book about her D. B. 305 00:16:20,639 --> 00:16:25,000 Cooper death by natural Causes. I hadn't read that book 306 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,440 when I had reached out to him, and my first impression, 307 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:34,679 not knowing the Foremans and not truly knowing that story, was, 308 00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:37,519 oh my gosh, this is going to be some woke 309 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:41,519 couple from Seattle just trying to sling this book to 310 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,279 fit a Pacific Northwest narrative with this D. B. Cooper 311 00:16:46,399 --> 00:16:50,080 story from the Pacific Northwest also, And then I read 312 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,039 the book and the book's very sweet. 313 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:52,799 Speaker 3: They are. 314 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 6: Truly just great friends of hers that met at Dunfield 315 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,120 just became lifelong friends. I went to the Foreman's house 316 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,119 to do that interview and I knocked on their door. 317 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,400 They let me in and they were the nicest people ever. 318 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,880 It was like hanging out with my aunt and uncle 319 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,200 that I hadn't seen in a long time. We stopped 320 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,240 the interview halfway through because that one's three and a 321 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:21,720 half hours or something like that, and I was like, hey, 322 00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:23,720 I need to break for a minute. Let's go get 323 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:25,880 lunch and then we can finish the second half of this. 324 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,119 And they took me out to lunch. He showed me 325 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,240 as playing, he showed me his car collection. 326 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:31,759 Speaker 2: Wow. Very cool. 327 00:17:31,839 --> 00:17:36,599 Speaker 6: Actually, just the greatest people in that story is truly amazing. 328 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:42,279 There's also been some work done recently. There's this infamous 329 00:17:42,319 --> 00:17:45,200 book on the dB Cooper case called dB Cooper What 330 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:48,319 Really Happened? By Max Gunther and that came out in 331 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,559 nineteen eighty five. I believe and Max Gunther is a 332 00:17:51,599 --> 00:17:55,279 serious journalist. He writes this book is non fiction where 333 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:58,319 he is communicating with the widow of Dbie Cooper, who 334 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,519 tells him the story of what happened, and she remains anonymous. 335 00:18:04,559 --> 00:18:07,400 So I don't know for sure if Max Gunther even 336 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,960 knew who she was. It's possible Max Gunther made this 337 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,160 whole thing up in nineteen eighty five, being a serious 338 00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:18,240 journalist presenting this as nonfiction even though the whole thing's 339 00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:21,720 a joke, would be that could ruin your career and 340 00:18:21,759 --> 00:18:27,160 potentially end it. Martin Andrade did some forensic linguistics I forgot. 341 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:30,880 Stylometry is the term for that, where there are some 342 00:18:31,079 --> 00:18:35,279 letters from Clara to Max Gunther in that book, and 343 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,480 he compared it to the writings of Barb Dayton and 344 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,839 got an incredible match. And what that more than likely 345 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,799 means is that Barb Dayton communicated with Max Gunther to 346 00:18:46,839 --> 00:18:48,200 tell the story. 347 00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:52,599 Speaker 2: Under a pseudonym, or did he give her the pseudonym. 348 00:18:53,039 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 6: That I'm not one hundred percent shirt certain of. I 349 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,640 believe Clara chose the name Clara because she also wrote 350 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,680 a letter Max Himmelsbach, not Max Simmelsbach, Ralph Himmelsbach, and 351 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,319 to sell this Dbie Cooper story also and in that 352 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,960 letter she uses the name Clara, so it would have 353 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,240 been the name she gave to Max Gunther. But I 354 00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:16,559 don't think that this proves that Barb Dayton is dB Cooper. 355 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,599 But I think it proves that Barb Dayton has always 356 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,319 had an obsession with this case, okay, And she was 357 00:19:23,519 --> 00:19:26,920 lonely at a certain point in time and could envision 358 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,640 herself both as D. B. Cooper and as now a 359 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,880 woman who fell in love with dB Cooper. 360 00:19:35,839 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: Was Barb Dayton? Had she passed by this point? Is 361 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,720 she still with us? Or is she gone? 362 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 6: Barb Dayton died in the early two thousands, I believe 363 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,240 if you read the book by the Foremans, D B. 364 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,119 Cooper Death by natural causes born Robert Dayton. Robert Dayton 365 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,279 was truly a badass and lived this wildlife. He was 366 00:19:56,319 --> 00:19:59,079 a merchant marine and he's captured like in the Philippines 367 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,960 as a prisoner of war, and then they needed crew 368 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:04,160 for a ship, and so he just like raised his 369 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,480 hand like hey, I could do. This was in a 370 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:13,200 motorcycle gang, just an all around tough guy, and then 371 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,039 always had this thing where it's like I was born 372 00:20:16,079 --> 00:20:19,119 in the wrong body because the first person in Washington 373 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,480 State I believe to have ginger reassignment surgery got it 374 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:27,160 done in Baltimore and then living his life as gender 375 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,480 assignment surgery in nineteen sixty nine, by. 376 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,319 Speaker 2: The way, Yeah, long time ago, right, yeah. Yes. 377 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 6: And so now she's living a life as a woman, 378 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:38,960 sad and lonely and working as a librarian for the 379 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,759 Seattle Public Library. She wants to prove to herself that 380 00:20:42,839 --> 00:20:46,039 she's still like this tough, no nonsense person and not 381 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,960 just this meek librarian. So she pulls off the dB 382 00:20:50,079 --> 00:20:54,240 Cooper hijacking, ditches the money in a cistern and would 383 00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:58,799 burn Oregon, and goes back to her job as a librarian, 384 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,240 fulfilled that she proved to herself that she's still tough 385 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,799 old Robert Dayton as well as today being Barbara Dayton. 386 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 3: I like that. That's an interesting story. 387 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, And she confessed to the Foremans. Ron Foreman told 388 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,000 me that he believed all along that Barb was Clara 389 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,440 in the Max Gunther book, which is very interesting because 390 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,960 the Max Gunther book is quite controversial. There's a lot 391 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,359 of stuff in there. There's details that we didn't learn 392 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,279 until the FBI files came out that are like, wow, 393 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:30,799 that was right on the nose, And then there's a 394 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,960 lot of details that don't make sense that could be filler. 395 00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:37,240 Did Max Gunther make that up to fill in the 396 00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:40,279 gaps of the story or did Clara truly not know 397 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,759 and give information that was wrong. 398 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 399 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:55,720 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 400 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:56,640 mindover Murder. 401 00:21:58,079 --> 00:22:01,599 Speaker 5: You said you also had another favorite unlikely suspect. 402 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 3: Who is that? 403 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 6: That would be Wolfgang Gossip. Wolfgang Gossip. He's a veteran, 404 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,079 he's a survivalist. His son Greg told me he would 405 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,480 go on these camping trips alone where his family would 406 00:22:13,519 --> 00:22:15,559 drop him off and then pick him up a week later, 407 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,359 like fifty sixty miles a different direction with no gear 408 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,759 or anything like that. He confessed to both of his 409 00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:27,279 sons on their twenty first birthday of being dB Cooper. 410 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,279 He also confessed to two different lawyers in two different states. 411 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:36,359 There have been a handful of books in the works 412 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,920 about him that never seemed to get finished real mysterious figure. 413 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:44,119 I wasn't really sure how I felt on him until 414 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,000 I interviewed Greg Gossett, another one I traveled to. He 415 00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:50,880 was just outside Salt Lake. He was very skeptical of me, 416 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,480 probably because he's been contacted by other dB Cooper researchers. 417 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,599 So he wanted to have dinner with me before we 418 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,240 did the interview, which I really didn't want to do 419 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:01,279 because I didn't want to go over the same things 420 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:04,960 and then my questions would be fake. During that dinner, 421 00:23:05,039 --> 00:23:07,680 it was very clear to me that he just wanted 422 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,039 to know do I have an agenda? As am I 423 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,599 trying to pitch his father as Cooper? Or am I 424 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,960 trying to pitch his father as not being Cooper, which 425 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,880 neither was the case. I just wanted to hear Greg's story. 426 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,279 In Greg's thoughts on his father being involved in the 427 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:23,440 Stevie Cooper myth. 428 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,319 Speaker 2: Do you feel like for people that are connected to 429 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,200 the case that they must run into people that are 430 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:35,400 either skeptics or cranks or difficult people with a strong agenda? 431 00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:37,359 Is that kind of what he was trying to filter 432 00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:39,640 out by having dinner with you the night before? 433 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:40,319 Speaker 4: Oh? 434 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, And you guys briefly spoke about Vince Peterson 435 00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:48,839 in your last episode. Eric, you listed this like press conference. Hey, 436 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,039 it's Vince Peterson. I connected him via these tai particles. 437 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,759 I had his daughter on my show, Julie. She's adamant 438 00:23:57,279 --> 00:24:00,920 that her father is not Dbe Cooper and very upset 439 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,920 by the fact that here's this group, here's this community 440 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,279 that just named her father as being involved in criminality 441 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,960 and pulling off this crime when he was the kind 442 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,440 of guy who was never involved in anything like that, 443 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,880 wouldn't have done this. There's just no evidence for it. 444 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,640 She thinks it's absolutely ridiculous. I love that episode I did. 445 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,119 It's one of my favorite I've wanted. I've had relatives 446 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,599 of people who believe their uncle, their father, their grandfather 447 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,319 was Cooper. But I've always wanted to have someone on 448 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,279 whose family member has been accused and doesn't believe it. 449 00:24:35,599 --> 00:24:37,839 And so I was very excited to do that episode. 450 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,799 It was hard to get her on because of course 451 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,039 she's jaded to this community. Yeah, and so I had 452 00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:45,279 to earn her trust and look, this, I just want 453 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:48,319 to hear from you. Also, I don't believe your father 454 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,000 was Vince Peterson. So that definitely helps. But I just 455 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:54,000 want to hear what you have to say about this, 456 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:57,720 what you think of Hey, your father is accused of this, 457 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,319 because now you google his name and the first thing 458 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:01,680 that comes up as DBE Cooper. 459 00:25:01,839 --> 00:25:04,799 Speaker 2: It has to be really frustrating for her because she 460 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,640 firmly believes that he is not dB Cooper, and yet 461 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,240 she has to now deal with this. 462 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,559 Speaker 6: And she had to look up what dB Cooper was 463 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,880 when her father was accused of this crime. 464 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 5: Okay, so who then is your favorite likely suspects? Like 465 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,680 you've examined all of the evidence, you know it way 466 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,039 better than the two of us. Do Who do you 467 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,119 think is most likely dB Cooper? 468 00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:31,799 Speaker 6: If you want a JFK connection. 469 00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:33,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. 470 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:39,559 Speaker 6: Laurence skip Hall is a very interesting suspect. Obviously, I 471 00:25:39,599 --> 00:25:41,759 can't put him on the plane because if we could 472 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:43,920 put any of these suspects on the plane, then it's 473 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,079 game over. We're done. He was like this Cuban freedom fighter. 474 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,839 They then got involved with this Cuban casino magnet and 475 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,039 goes by all these aliases. Has the skill set to 476 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:59,960 both plan and execute this sort of crime. There's some loose, 477 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,119 goosey air America ties there as well. He seems to 478 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,000 be likely to be involved in the JFK assassination. He 479 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,000 was testified in one of the hearings about that. But 480 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,079 one of the things I like about him more than 481 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,440 anything else that doesn't really prove he's Cooper, But it's 482 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,400 so interesting is if you look at the description of Cooper, 483 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:24,079 the official FBI one, they list possible Mexican or Native 484 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,240 American history or ancestry with an olive or swarthy complexion. 485 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,960 And if you pulled up a screenshot of fifty dB 486 00:26:32,079 --> 00:26:36,720 Cooper Suspects, it's a lot of pasty white faces on there. 487 00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:41,319 And Laurence skip Hall, in some of his freedom fighting endeavors, 488 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:45,119 went by the alias Lorenzo Pacia. I think it was 489 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,319 Lorenzo Yea, I'm prettyure it's Lorenzo Pasia. If I told 490 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,759 you my name was Lorenzo Pacia, you'd be like, no, 491 00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:54,720 you don't look like that name fits. 492 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: You, like Lorenzo. 493 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,759 Speaker 6: Just the fact that he could go by this like 494 00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:05,680 Cuban alias and get away with it. He is obviously 495 00:27:05,839 --> 00:27:09,559 has some sort of Latin influence in there as well. 496 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,519 The other suspect that's been around a little bit longer. Oh, 497 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:15,720 and let me plug. Where was Skip? By John Limbach 498 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,160 is a really good book on Lauren skip Hall. He 499 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,559 goes by Lauren Hall or Skip Hall. So that's why 500 00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:24,680 I'm saying both first names. But the other suspect that's 501 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,000 been around a while that just seems to get more 502 00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:31,720 and more fascinating is Ted Braiden. Ted Braden is a 503 00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:36,240 mac v SAG, a special Forces dude from Vietnam. He 504 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:41,319 goes a wall during Vietnam. He's captured working as a 505 00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:45,480 mercenary in the Congo. He then gets taken to Fort Dix, 506 00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:48,640 where I spoke to one of the prison guards there 507 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:51,680 and he said, when he encountered Ted Braden was in 508 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,799 his cell at Fort Dix for desertion, and he was 509 00:27:55,839 --> 00:27:58,799 in his cell in full uniform with a belt buckle, 510 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,839 shine shoes, smoking a wood tipped cigar, and watching a 511 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,920 television And he said, Darren, I'm only giving you all 512 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,640 those details because everything I just mentioned was strictly not allowed. 513 00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:14,519 And he said, when I saw that, I knew right 514 00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:17,240 away that there's something going on about this guy that's 515 00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:19,640 above my pay grade. And when it came time for 516 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,799 him to be tried for his crimes. He was released 517 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,720 because there was quote not enough staff to fill the 518 00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:26,759 courtroom that day. 519 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: It just seemed crazy, like how did this happen? 520 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, And I know a lot of people in the 521 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:36,880 dB Cooper community that have access to a lot of 522 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,920 resources to look up people in history, more so than 523 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,720 the average person on Google. And if you look in 524 00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:46,079 Ted Braden's history, there is truly nothing there as if 525 00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:49,279 he never existed. And my friend Drew Beeson has this 526 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,599 great book on him called Soldier of Fortune. I'm sorry, 527 00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,599 Paratrooper of Fortune. The story of Ted Braden. One of 528 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,240 my favorite facts about him is he's seventy two years old, 529 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:04,440 gets pulled over for drunk driving. He's driving a car 530 00:29:04,519 --> 00:29:08,920 with no registration and no plates. He has no identification 531 00:29:09,119 --> 00:29:12,960 on him and refuse to identify himself to the police officer. 532 00:29:13,359 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: He sounds a Reacher on television that character. 533 00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:20,559 Speaker 6: Yes, and a lot of the macv SAG guys from 534 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,240 that time period, some of which I've spoken to, and 535 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,359 Drew Beeson many more, unanimously they say, oh, that dB 536 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,000 Cooper thing, that's Ted Braden. One hundred percent, that's Ted Braden. 537 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,000 And it's not, even though some guys thought it was Ted, 538 00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:36,799 but uh, we don't really think so, or maybe it's 539 00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:40,440 this other guy. They unanimously believe that it's Ted Braden. 540 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,599 He's by far the most qualified to pull off this skyjacking. 541 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,319 And one of the things about the skyjacking that's so interesting, 542 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,119 especially compared to the six copycats, is the entire time 543 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,799 dB Cooper is calm, cool and collected. It takes a 544 00:29:56,839 --> 00:29:59,799 different person to be pulling off something like this and 545 00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:04,160 remaining completely calm, someone who has maybe seen some stuff 546 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,279 and done some stuff. This isn't their first rodeo, and 547 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:10,160 this isn't in any way the most dangerous thing they've done, 548 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:12,279 and that would definitely be Ted Brayden. 549 00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:16,759 Speaker 5: We had in our two episodes, Bill and I, again 550 00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:19,599 not having done the full breadth of research that you've done, 551 00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:22,920 advocated for Richard Floyd McCoy, and you had set off 552 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,880 air that you wanted to utterly destroy Richard Floyd McCoy. 553 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:26,559 Speaker 3: So please go. 554 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 5: Ahead and tell us why we are wrong on Richard 555 00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:29,960 Floyd McCoy. 556 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 6: There are a few suspects that, for whatever reason, they 557 00:30:33,559 --> 00:30:38,279 just get picked up and continuously reran. Robert Rockstraw is. 558 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 3: One of those. 559 00:30:38,839 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of media attention. And I'm very forgiving 560 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,839 of this because when I came into the case, I 561 00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:46,680 would have told you, oh, it's Kenny Christensen, for sure, 562 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,359 it's Kenny Christensen, and then I continued to read and 563 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,960 do more. Richard Floyd McCoy has been a suspect since 564 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,079 April seventh, I think, nineteen seventy two. He committed a 565 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:03,359 copycat skyjacking six months after Cooper. There are many things 566 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,240 he did in a very similar way. There are also 567 00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:10,720 a couple things where he'd improved on Cooper's plan. He 568 00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:15,160 gave much more specific flight instructions. For example, he lands 569 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,720 just a few miles from his home, but his execution 570 00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:25,000 is completely sloppy. He hilariously leaves his hijacking notes in 571 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:28,880 the airport, and so when he's on the plane, they 572 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,720 call out, hey, did somebody leave him in ela envelope 573 00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:35,119 in the airport and it's full of his hijacking notes? 574 00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:41,160 Is hijacking? He's a complete mess. He makes it obvious 575 00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:44,200 that there's something going on with him before his hijacking starts, 576 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,240 so the pilots were going to land somewhere else before 577 00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:52,119 his hijacking even begins. He drew a lot of attention 578 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:55,839 to himself. He was all over the place. He was 579 00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:00,000 angry and flustered, not in any way similar to Cooper. 580 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,640 The stewardesses were immediately shown pictures of McCoy. Hey, look 581 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,079 at this guy, he just committed a similar hijacking. This 582 00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:12,720 is six months later. All of the stewardesses said, that 583 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,319 is definitely not him. He's twenty nine at the time. 584 00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:20,240 Cooper is given the age of mid to late forties. 585 00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:23,880 Tina Mucklow is twenty two years old sitting right next 586 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,200 to him. Do you think a twenty two year old 587 00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:28,559 is going to mistake someone a few years older than 588 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:31,519 her for someone that could be her father? Definitely not. 589 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,920 McCoy has big ears that prominently stick out. He has 590 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,039 blue eyes. Cooper is believed to have brown eyes. McCoy 591 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,759 has a South Carolina accent and a little bit of 592 00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:48,160 a speech impediment, like a slight lisp. The FBI thoroughly 593 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,559 ruled out McCoy in seventy two, and whatever you think 594 00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:55,279 of the FBI and whatever job they did, I want 595 00:32:55,319 --> 00:32:58,960 to make this point. The FBI had him in custody, 596 00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:02,480 so if there were any evidence that they could have 597 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,640 used to pin the nor Jack hijacking. dB Cooper's on 598 00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:10,319 him as well. They would have tried that. They didn't 599 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,680 do any of that. The dB Cooper files are out, 600 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,079 you can read them. They thoroughly ruled out McCoy. There 601 00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:21,480 are witnesses that say McCoy was home the morning of Thanksgiving. 602 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,400 So if he's jumping out north of Portland, southwest Washington 603 00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,160 the night before Thanksgiving, getting to his home in Utah 604 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:35,960 by the morning, theoretically it's possible, but would be extremely difficult. Also, 605 00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:41,160 dB Cooper smoked seven cigarettes in four hours. McCoy was 606 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,839 a non smoker. If you believe you can use smoking 607 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,000 cigarettes as a disguise, I would challenge you to smoke 608 00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:50,960 seven cigarettes in four hours as a non smoker and 609 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,279 see how that works out for you. 610 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,759 Speaker 2: One of the things we laughed about was just there's 611 00:33:56,759 --> 00:34:00,200 so much about the Cooper cases of a time. It 612 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,279 was fifty years ago. We were discussing the fact that 613 00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:05,200 back then you could smoke on aircraft. 614 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 6: Here's my favorite detail about this hijacking and one of 615 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,000 the reasons, and we can get into the dB Cooper's 616 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,840 a full care versus a criminal. But he's sitting in 617 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,920 the back of that plane drinking a bourbon and soda 618 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,039 with sunglasses on, and he's got a beautiful young stewardess 619 00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:26,039 sitting next to him and she lights his cigarettes for him. 620 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 2: It seems like a James Bond movie. Yes. 621 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,559 Speaker 5: One of the things that I thought was very interesting 622 00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:38,599 is the parallels that people have drawn between D. B. 623 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,039 Cooper and the Roger Thornhill character from the nineteen fifty 624 00:34:42,119 --> 00:34:46,159 nine Hitchcock film north By Northwest. And he definitely kind 625 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:48,800 of struck me as Yeah, Roger Thornhill, what one hundred 626 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,639 percent have done that? And just because I'm a film 627 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:54,599 buffer a film teacher, I just like that little particular 628 00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:59,320 element there. I definitely see where Richard Floyd McCoy's is 629 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,679 definitely not the correct suspect. Because you mentioned the FBI, 630 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,119 I do want to ask your thoughts about the FBI 631 00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:08,320 and their work on the case. 632 00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 3: They did give up their investigation. Do you feel like 633 00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:13,280 they gave up too easily? 634 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,639 Speaker 5: Did they do everything they could to solve the case, 635 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,360 or should they have kept doggedly on. 636 00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:20,119 Speaker 6: I have a couple different schools of thought on this. 637 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,039 I think that the FBI did everything they could to 638 00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:27,280 get this case solved, and I've spoken to several agents 639 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,079 that have worked on this case. I had Larry Carr 640 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:33,360 on my show. All of those guys wanted to be 641 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,840 the one to solve the case. To purp walk dB Cooper. 642 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,880 The FBI is an organization. I think they made a 643 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,360 couple of small mistakes on this and some of them 644 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,199 aren't even really all their fault. So Cooper, like I said, 645 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,039 smoked seven cigarettes. That's some of the evidence recovered from 646 00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:55,880 the flight. You can see in the FBI files, an 647 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,199 FBI file where they send the cigarette butts to a lab. Hey, 648 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:02,159 check the cigarette butts, see if you can pull any 649 00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:04,760 prints off it. If you can't, then throw them in 650 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:11,079 the garbage. Because they didn't know in nineteen seventy one, Hey, fifteen, 651 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,039 twenty twenty five years from now, we will exactly be 652 00:36:15,159 --> 00:36:17,480 able to figure out who this guy is thanks to 653 00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:20,960 these cigarette butts. It was probably just more than likely. Hey, 654 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,159 we don't want these these smolly cigarette butts in the 655 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:27,119 evidence locker forever, because they're obviously of no doubt. The 656 00:36:27,199 --> 00:36:30,840 other weird one is the hair slide. They pulled one 657 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,960 piece of hair off of his seat that they believed 658 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,519 could have been his This is where I'm like, this 659 00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:38,719 is crazy sloppy work. Because if I have my dB 660 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,000 Cooper hair slide and Bill, you have a suspect and 661 00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:45,159 you have a piece of his hair, I would say, hey, Bill, 662 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,880 send me your hair sample. I'll compare it to my slide. 663 00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:51,559 That's not what they did. What they did is they 664 00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:54,400 would send it to other offices. Okay, here's the dB 665 00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:56,719 Cooper hair slide. It's in the mail, and in the 666 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,719 process of doing that time and time again, somewhere in 667 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,679 the mix that hairslide is now lost. 668 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 2: Don't get me started with the FBI and the Parkway murders. 669 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,960 That's a whole nother discussion. 670 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 6: But the case isn't actually closed. They publicly suspended the 671 00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:15,239 investigation in twenty sixteen, and I think there are a 672 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,360 couple different reasons for that. First of all, by publicly 673 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,920 doing that, they're going to slow down this barrage of 674 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,039 people saying, Hey, look at this information I found, check 675 00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:29,000 out my theory, I solve the case. What do you 676 00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:31,639 think of this? Hey, my neighbor bought a new corvette 677 00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:35,199 in seventy two, isn't that suspicious? And then the real 678 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,880 reason is just resources. By twenty sixteen, this case is 679 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,480 forty five years old. They haven't really gotten anywhere. So 680 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,960 how much more time and money are we going to 681 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:47,679 invest in this? 682 00:37:48,519 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 2: Do you feel that the are the files truly open? 683 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,039 Can you see everything they have on dB Cooper. 684 00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 6: The files have been in the process of being released 685 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,599 for quite some time. We're towards the end, so the 686 00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:07,800 files that are coming out now are later years. As 687 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,679 far as reactions, there isn't much because most people involved 688 00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:14,559 in this case have passed away, and also all these 689 00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:17,519 super sluts in the community are able to figure out 690 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,119 what is likely in the reactions, both based on number 691 00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:24,559 of characters and who likely would be in that So 692 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,800 the files are quite extensive. But the files are what 693 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,000 the FBI calls three O two's right, and a three 694 00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:35,360 oh two is a case agent's notes. So one three 695 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,719 to two, for example, can be a field agent taking 696 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,559 a call from a guy, and this is a real file. Hey, 697 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,960 I was watching Matt Locke the other night and there 698 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,760 was a guy in the jury. He sure looked like 699 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,400 the dB Cooper sketch. It was on Tuesday at eleven pm. 700 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,880 You guys should watch that episode and check it out. 701 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,800 And that that's an LBI three to two that's not 702 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,119 going anywhere. They're not going to investigate. But because it 703 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,480 was in the process of this active investigation, a case 704 00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:08,159 agent has to make a note on it. Wow, there's 705 00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:10,239 a lot of good information in there, a lot of 706 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,960 things we learned, suspects that we thought were legit, that 707 00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:18,800 the FBI had cleared time and time again, suspects that 708 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,960 have been gone over multiple times, leads they've chased. Just 709 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,880 to show you how far this case has gone. And 710 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,639 like I said, it's they're not any further today than 711 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,519 they really were November twenty fifth, nineteen seventy one. There's 712 00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:36,159 a file from like nineteen seventy six where they're reaching 713 00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:38,320 out to a bunch of case agents and different field 714 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,880 offices and to paraphrase it, basically says, Okay, five years 715 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,199 have gone by and we haven't gotten anywhere. So we're 716 00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:47,360 going to have this meeting in San Francisco and we 717 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,119 want all of you to bring fresh ideas on where 718 00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:53,079 to take this case next. And that was just five 719 00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:56,000 years after the fact. We're coming up on fifty four 720 00:39:56,079 --> 00:40:00,400 years this year and five years in they feel like 721 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:01,360 they'd gone anywhere. 722 00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:05,119 Speaker 2: Join us again next time as we continue our conversation 723 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:10,599 with Darren Schaefer of the Cooper Vortex podcast. A fascinating 724 00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:15,760 conversation into dB Cooper suspects and where the case might 725 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:16,559 go from here. 726 00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:19,159 Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of 727 00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:21,960 mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 728 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:22,800 see you next time. 729 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 730 00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:38,480 Another Dog Productions. 731 00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 732 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,159 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 733 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 734 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 735 00:40:53,079 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 736 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 737 00:40:59,079 --> 00:41:00,360 Murders on facebok. 738 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 2: Buck and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 739 00:41:03,519 --> 00:41:05,360 at Bill Thomas five six. 740 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.