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Yes? 44 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:39.000 You do? 45 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:41.640 In the car before my kids pta meeting? 46 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.280 Really yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 47 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:46.519 I never win? 48 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:48.439 And tell well, there you have it. You could get 49 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.599 lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com play for 50 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:53.680 free right now. Are you feeling lucky? 51 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:54.680 No, We're just necessary foid. 52 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:56.239 We're gonna be my long eighteen plus terms and conditions 53 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:57.120 of plus seems. 54 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:09.120 After details Radio. You are now listening to True Murder, 55 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.960 The most shocking killers in true crime history and the 56 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:17.960 authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The 57 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:23.840 Nightstalker BTK every week another fascinating author talking about the 58 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:27.680 most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True 59 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:31.000 Murder with your host, journalist and author. 60 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:46.639 Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. From nineteen twenty six to nineteen 61 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:51.599 twenty eight, Gordon Stewart Northcott committed at least twenty murders 62 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:55.719 on a chicken ranch outside of Los Angeles. His thirteen 63 00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:00.400 year old nephew, Sandford Clark, was the sole surviving victim 64 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.120 of the killing spree. Forced to take part in the murders, 65 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:08.759 Sandford carried tremendous guilt all his life, yet, despite his 66 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:12.000 youth and the trauma, he helped gain some justice for 67 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:15.159 the dead in their families by testifying at Northcott's trial, 68 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:19.280 which led to his conviction and execution. It was a 69 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.599 shocking story. Perhaps the most shocking part of all is 70 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:25.680 the extraordinarily ordinary life Clark went on to live as 71 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:29.360 a decorated World War II VET, a devoted husband of 72 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:33.599 fifty five years, a loving father, and a productive citizen. 73 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:39.759 Using never before heard information from Sandford's son, Jerry Clark, 74 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:43.840 Flacco tells the real story behind the case that captivated 75 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:47.479 the nation. In dramatizing one of the darkest cases in 76 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:52.599 American crime, Flacco constructs a riveting psychological drama about how 77 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.919 Sandford was able to detoxify himself from the evil he'd encountered, 78 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:02.080 offering the ultimately redempt the story of one man's remarkable 79 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:07.159 ability to survive a nightmare and emerge intact. The book 80 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:10.560 that we're featuring this evening is Road Out of Hell, 81 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.599 Sanford Clark and the True Story of the Wineville Murders 82 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:17.199 with my special guest, journalist and author Anthony Flacco. Welcome 83 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:19.480 back to the program, and thank you for agreeing this interview. 84 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:25.079 Anthony Flacco, Thank you, Dan, I appreciate being here today. Well, 85 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:28.800 thank you very much. And I got a like I 86 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.600 said to you in the just before, I'm going to 87 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:34.680 tell people to fasten their seatbelts, because this one is 88 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:39.720 an extraordinarily horrifying tale and like I say, where fiction 89 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.720 is trumped by nonfiction hands down. So let's get right 90 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:49.240 to this. What brought you to this story? 91 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:56.879 Well, Jerry himself had sought out a writer and had 92 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:02.279 interviewed I believe several and I sent to him as 93 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:06.000 one of the people he talked with my take on 94 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:08.360 how I thought the story ought to be told, and 95 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:10.319 so he decided to do it with me, and we 96 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:15.360 partnered up and I interviewed him over over months of time, 97 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.439 and then sat down and wrote this book, this astounding 98 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:26.680 story which was touched on in some newscasts that I'd seen, 99 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:29.160 and part of it was done, of course by Clint 100 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:34.639 Eastwood in the film Changeling, but that movie focused on 101 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:38.319 the murders and the murder farm and never really told 102 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.839 you anything about what about the kid who was put 103 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:45.199 through it all and what happened to him. And that's when, 104 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.160 through Jerry, I got this amazing story of this guy, 105 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:53.240 which is in my mind so powerful because Sandford Clark, 106 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:55.839 who went through this in the age of twelve to fourteen, 107 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.160 was just a completely ordinary person. He wasn't stupid, but 108 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:04.120 he wasn't brilliant. He wasn't ugly, but he wasn't handsome. 109 00:06:04.199 --> 00:06:07.639 He was kind of small statuted, he was kind of 110 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:11.360 quiet in his demeanor. He's someone who could pass through 111 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:16.360 a crowd unnoticed. He could be anybody. And yet when 112 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:21.439 it came down to this hellish goolog that he was 113 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:26.399 dragged through for two years, he found a reservoir of 114 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:31.240 determination to be well, to get back on his feet 115 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:36.279 that was so astounding. It puts on that level. He was, like, 116 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.519 you know, a brilliant musician playing at their best. He 117 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:45.399 encountered this talent for survival that I believe makes the 118 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:49.439 story so interesting because obviously, if he can do it, 119 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:52.480 so can you, and so can I. We spend our 120 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:56.319 lives detached from that ability, because you know, God forbid 121 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.680 we have to actually call on it. But it exists, 122 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.040 and you can watch it happen here in this very 123 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.839 ordinary boy. And then how he went about living the 124 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:11.279 next half century later and without not without great great 125 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.759 pain and sacrifice. He wasn't able ever to shrug this off. 126 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:20.279 He was able to carry it and endure and flourish 127 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:24.360 in spite of, you know, like a heavily handicapped person 128 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:28.839 of any kind does when they meet their determination with reality. 129 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:33.199 So to me, that's what captured me in the story, 130 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:37.000 and it was the only reason I could endure learning 131 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.920 about and then even worse, having to write about his 132 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.360 two years on the murder farm. But it was an 133 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:45.079 early choice I made in one of the things I 134 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:47.040 said to Jerry when we were first talking about the 135 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.199 project was, if you're going to tell this story, you 136 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.879 can't backpedal on what happened. You can't make it politically correct, 137 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:57.439 you can't soften it in any way, because if you 138 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.360 do that, you're already lying. The boy didn't go through 139 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:04.600 a softened version, and until we understand what the cave 140 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.879 he was pulled through for those two years, I don't 141 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.079 believe you can appreciate his recovery as well, because you 142 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.040 can't really measure the distance otherwise. So that's why we 143 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.199 spend a fair amount of time on that murder farm 144 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.720 in this story, because I think in that way, it's 145 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:27.680 like any medieval torture situation, like Auschwitz or any other 146 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:31.839 place where it's so horrible you have to say what 147 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.600 it is. You have to describe what it is because 148 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.879 you can't sanitize it. The very act of sanitizing. It 149 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:42.279 seems somehow a little obscene, given the fact that this 150 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:48.039 boy didn't get anything sanitized. And yet, and yet, and yet, 151 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.279 many years later, when he finally meets his love he 152 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:55.720 stayed with forever, and they marry and find out they 153 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:57.480 can't have kids of their own. What does he do. 154 00:08:57.559 --> 00:08:59.639 He goes to the orphanage and adopts two of their 155 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:03.879 hard adopt older boys, three and six years old, because 156 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.360 he has been so filled with empathy for what it's 157 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.960 like to be stranded, and he doesn't want those guys 158 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.279 stranded in an orphanage the way he was stranded on 159 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.240 that farm. I mean, that's a hint as to how 160 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:22.720 he transposed his torment into success. And I say again, 161 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.600 I don't mean to make anything blithe about this. You 162 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.399 know that it was at easy at all, or that 163 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:32.399 he had any ability to wall it off, which he didn't. 164 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:35.320 You know, he suffered with it. But that's an example 165 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:39.639 of how he physically transformed the energy he was carrying 166 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:44.559 into something good in his present day life. 167 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.759 Now let's go back to how you start this book. 168 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:53.519 We introduced the characters that are in this tragic play. 169 00:09:55.600 --> 00:10:00.759 You introduced his sister Jesse. Yes, again, won't too much away, 170 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:05.600 but this is such a heroic character. His sister is 171 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:09.639 seventeen years old. You said Sandford is twelve or thirteen. 172 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:11.159 Yes, and you can correct me on that age when 173 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:11.519 it starts. 174 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:14.960 And then it's his mother Winnie and her husband John Clark. 175 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:18.799 So before we start, as you start in the book, 176 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:24.360 you have uncle Gordon Stuart Northcott, and you have this 177 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:30.480 conversation about Uncle Stuart taking little Sandford to go to Regina. 178 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:36.559 Tell us about this conversation and how it transpired, what 179 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:41.639 did Uncle Stuart really want? And tell us about the 180 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.559 dynamic between Winnie and John, who really wears the pants 181 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:47.360 in the family, and what does Winnie really like in 182 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:50.360 terms of her character. Tell us about this as you 183 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:55.159 do in the book. Describe this very very vivid scene. 184 00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:01.279 Well, Gordon Stewart Northcott was Sandford Clark. Uncle Sandford is 185 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.080 twelve at Northcott at that time is only twenty. He's 186 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:06.679 not quite twenty one yet, but he's already living on 187 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:10.519 his own and he's driven up to Canada from Los Angeles, 188 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:12.399 where he and his family have lived for the last 189 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:16.399 two years. Even though they're Canadians. The reason they left Canadian. 190 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.799 They'd fled their home neighborhood because there were all sorts 191 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:24.960 of bad rumors about their son, Gordon Stewart Northcott and 192 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:29.000 his conduct around the little children, and so they went 193 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.759 to escape to America. But after two years he shows 194 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.600 up back in Canada at his sister Winnie's house, and 195 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:40.360 Whinnie is Sandford's mom. He and when he's his older sister, 196 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:44.840 but they're extremely close. They have this incestuous relationship which 197 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:47.840 I don't know or nor do I claim there was 198 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:51.600 a sexual component, but there was certainly a hugely inappropriate 199 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.720 intimacy between them, like two giggling lovers, and they would 200 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:01.120 carry this out underneath her husband, John's nose, because Winnie 201 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:06.399 was already basically a poorly contained psychopath and John had 202 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.799 just been bitched into silence. This guy just wanted to 203 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:11.919 get through the day without having his ear chewed off 204 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.879 and have dinner. So in terms of being any protection 205 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:19.039 to Sandford against Winnie, he was inert. He was a 206 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:25.600 piece of furniture. Unfortunately, now Stuart shows up, Uncle Stuart 207 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.600 and says he's got this grand plan. He's going to 208 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:32.360 start a chicken ranch out outside Los Angeles, down near 209 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.480 his parents' place, and he needs for Sandford to come 210 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.960 along to help him work on the ranch and get 211 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.399 it started. And after all, Sandford's not doing well in 212 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:43.759 school and they figure it's time for him to learn 213 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:48.480 a trade. And he actually talks Sandford's mom into letting 214 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:51.440 him put Sandford in the car, and of course they're 215 00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:54.720 crossing the border illegally and drives straight down into La 216 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.720 and outside La in the little town of Wineville, which 217 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:00.960 was this irrigated part of the desert where they were 218 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:05.679 growing some grapes. Back then. He had this three acres 219 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.639 of land his parents had bought for him, raw desert 220 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:11.679 scrub with a little fence around it, and these two 221 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.840 guys were to transform it into a functioning chicken ranch. 222 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:17.679 And the thing is, she let him go, even though 223 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:19.879 the whole family knew why they had had to flee 224 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.799 Canada in the first place two years earlier, and he 225 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:26.440 was back there by himself, without a kny oversight at all. 226 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.679 But she let him go, and Sandford right away knew 227 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:31.879 it was trouble and objected and didn't want to go 228 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:37.919 and was basically dragged into the car, and shortly after 229 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:40.480 they got on the road, virtually as soon as Sandford 230 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:45.120 was completely under Uncle Stuart's control is when the beatings began. 231 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:51.159 By the time they even reached California, he had already 232 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.679 taken a lot of violence enough to know that he 233 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:58.159 was in real trouble. So they get to Uncle Stuart's 234 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:01.320 parents' house in LA before they go on out to 235 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.399 the Chicken Ranch area, and he thinks, well, now finally 236 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.840 there's other people around and he'll stop this. And it 237 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.120 turns out their household is just as crazy and violent 238 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.039 as his own, which kind of tells you where the 239 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:18.399 man who would become Gordon Stewart Northcott grew up and 240 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:20.120 why he grew up the way he did. Because there 241 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:25.879 again the woman is a completely toxic, psychotic woman who 242 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:30.960 has completely beaten her husband into silent submission, and she 243 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.799 winds up driving a lot of the murder story herself, 244 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.919 and then later participating and trying to help her son 245 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.960 escape once the whole thing unravels two years down the road. 246 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:47.639 So these two guys, Gordon Stewart Northcott and Sanford Clark, 247 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:54.799 were both trapped between two highly psychotic, dominant female figures 248 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:58.840 who just had their own demons and like some kind 249 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:02.840 of magnetism. They were drawn together, this group of people, 250 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.840 a psychotic magnetism, and for Sandford found himself caught in 251 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:12.840 the middle of that. I'm losing my train of thought. 252 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:14.480 But oh no, they got pups of They go out 253 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:18.480 to the desert and they pitch a tent and literally 254 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:21.759 begin building this chicken ranch from scratch, building the chicken coops, 255 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:25.519 building a small two room house to be the main 256 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:29.480 home there, and they do over time get it built. 257 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.000 Sandford winds up doing much of the work while Uncle 258 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:38.480 Stuart overseas, and it isn't too long during their time 259 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.480 out on the ranch before Sandford takes his first knockdown 260 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:47.159 beating rape from Uncle Stuart. These rapes then continue throughout 261 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.600 the rest of his time there, and shortly after that 262 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.600 he brings home his first boy to lock into a 263 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:57.720 chicken coop and force Sandford to be his jailer. 264 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:04.840 Now, just a little bit, you talk about that Stewart 265 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.600 was trapped between these two psychopaths, but to be fair 266 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:13.840 for our audience, we really haven't talked about how bizarre 267 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:16.919 his behavior is and some of the things that he 268 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:22.799 tells Sanford almost immediately about his utopia and about trash 269 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.879 and about half Wits and about Hollywood. So there's some 270 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:31.559 real ratings that Sanford also realizes that this guy's very crazy, 271 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:34.799 and so he needs to adapt his behavior so that 272 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:37.559 he gets less of a beating, which he knows is 273 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:39.759 going to come anyway. So tell us a little bit 274 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:45.000 more about distinctively Stuart's behavior, right. 275 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:49.200 He instinctively starts taking on a classic victim stance, which 276 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.399 is to modify your behavior to keep your tormentor as 277 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:54.600 quiet as you possibly can. And I think it's just 278 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:57.600 it must be instinct among us that we do that, 279 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.759 you know in some Yeah, I think you can see 280 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.440 it with animals around a dominant animal, the way they 281 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:08.160 curtail their behavior. And he started learning that right away, 282 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:15.200 even before the actual so called teaching began emphasized with beatings. 283 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.440 But what, yes, and what. Uncle Stuart may have been 284 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:20.640 born as a normal person, but with the family he 285 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.079 was in, you're almost guaranteed to come out crazy. And 286 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:26.920 by the time Sandford was in his care from the 287 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.960 age twenty on of Uncle Stuart, he was already a 288 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:36.839 full blown psychopath. And to me, when I say psychopath, 289 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.079 I'm not a doctor. I'm not using any kind of 290 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:43.680 a psychiatric term. That the distinguishing mark I draw when 291 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:46.839 I'm interpreting any character or any person as a psychopath 292 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:50.000 is it's not enough that they don't care if they 293 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.519 hurt you. There's something in them that needs to hurt 294 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.839 you while they're getting done whatever it is they're getting done. 295 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.160 That even if they could steal your money, that's okay, 296 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:02.640 But it's not enough unless they steal your money and 297 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.960 hurt you, or steal your money and kill you. That 298 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:09.880 need to do harm to the innocent on top of 299 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:12.920 whatever you're stealing or whatever's going on, that need to 300 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:17.400 me is the element of psychosis. And Gordon Stewart Northcott 301 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.079 had it in spades, and you're right. Shortly after getting 302 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:25.039 in the car, Stuart, excuse me, Sanford, he knew he 303 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:29.160 was in deep trouble, deep deep trouble. But part of 304 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.880 it is a sign of the times. It's nineteen twenty six. 305 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.799 Then what is he going to do? The only communication 306 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:38.960 is a telephone, and most people still don't have one. 307 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.680 Once you're out of sight, once you're out of shouting distance. 308 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:46.359 Back in those days, you are gone. And he was gone, 309 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:49.480 and now he's an illegal alien in a country. He's 310 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.200 not supposed to be in where they have no connections, 311 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:57.839 no friends other than one toxic family of psychotics in 312 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:03.200 Los Angeles. This boy had invisible bars around him from 313 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.519 the moment he left Canada. And of course Stuart doing 314 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.759 the thing that so many dominating people will do in 315 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:16.319 a situation like that, to assert dominance immediately makes Sandford 316 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.799 paranoid about what would happen if the Americans caught him 317 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.759 down there illegally, and how he would go to prison, 318 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:27.119 and what they do to boys in prison, and graphically 319 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:32.279 describing gang rape to him ironically while he's doing this 320 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.839 as they're driving down, as if this is the way 321 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:38.039 to avoid all of that. It was actually getting close 322 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.559 to the beginning of that very thing for Sandford himself, 323 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:42.640 at the hands of his uncle. 324 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.640 Now, one other thing before we talk about while, we 325 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.680 should just talk about the depths of depravity from Sandford 326 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:57.119 right now, because it's key to him being silent and 327 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.480 not wanting to escape and not having the confidence in 328 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:06.000 so many areas it's certainly not confidence instilling whatsoever. But 329 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.039 there was also again when we talk about sadism, sadism 330 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.279 when we're talking about rape, but also sexual assault with 331 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:20.319 weapons and objects, and so it's added to the humiliation. 332 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.279 And I'm not sure when this occurs, but he has 333 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:27.200 this huge scar on his back, which becomes very very 334 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:31.160 important later with his sister, but where he is scalded. 335 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.599 So any little thing he is beaten for. But tell 336 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:40.400 us about how the sexual assault is perpetrated on the 337 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.599 boy and some of the things, horrendous things that he 338 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:45.720 does to him. 339 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:48.960 Now, I have to tell you, Dan, I've been asked 340 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.799 the question before, and I just won't go into the 341 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.119 details of it in an interview, which is only my 342 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:57.920 way of trying to say it's that awful. You know, 343 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:00.359 it is written down, it's in the story part of it, 344 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:02.559 need to know, But in an interview, I just I 345 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.599 don't even like repeating that stuff. The energy is too sick. 346 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.519 Suffice it to say your worst nightmare about being captive. Now, 347 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.720 let's set the scene a little better. This chicken ranch 348 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.079 is in what's now even now is it kind of 349 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.680 a remote suburb of Los Angeles. But back then was 350 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:26.160 an isolated little desert town with that California sun, big 351 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.160 desert stretching in all directions around him, or some equally 352 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:34.480 dry desert mountains on the other side, even if he ran, 353 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:37.920 that's what he was running too. He was afraid to 354 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:40.839 knock on doors because he'd been indoctrinated about what would 355 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:43.400 happen because he was there illegally, and how he would 356 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:47.759 wind up in prison. There was no telephone anywhere in 357 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:53.119 the area. Residences didn't have them except for wealthy people 358 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:57.200 back then. And once, after months of abuse and terror, 359 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.440 he finally risked just running just I think his instinct 360 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.319 made his legs run. But once he got out in 361 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.119 the desert realized there was nowhere he could go, he 362 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:08.960 turned around and came back, and you know, was thrown 363 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.160 in a chicken pit for days for his trouble. So 364 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:17.440 it's a lesson too, on the psychological breakdown a person 365 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.599 goes through under this kind of captivity. When we sit 366 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:23.720 and say, well, why didn't you run, you know, we're 367 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:27.720 being really ignorant of what they're up against. That his 368 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.519 world at that time was so crushed and so distorted, 369 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:38.240 and help was absolutely remote. 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