Speaker 1: What is up, fellowstick goes, I am Dan Valley coming
at you. Is another twenty twenty four twenty twenty five
NBA look Ahead. We are joined today for the Cleveland
capal years by Justin Rowan of the Chase Down Podcast,
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But let's get to more, or let's get to actual
Cleveland Cavaliers talk with the one, the Only mister justin
Roe justin welcome back. I think this might this might
be year five or six for you coming on to
do the Cavaliers lookhead with me. So I appreciate you
coming back so many times. How the heck are you doing?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 3: I'm doing well. I'm trying to get up to double digits.
I'm trying to, you know, continue to hang more of
these hardwood knocks banners around my office. But it's great
to be back. You know, I'm not the only one
that's back. Like it's fitting that you bring me back
to do preview because the Cleveland Cavaliers basically in their entirety.
Speaker 2: Are back this season, which is a.
Speaker 3: Very unusual thing but something that I do get a
little bit of enjoyment from for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, let's start there. So they obviously they
switched tight coaches. What I'll ask you about they go
from JB. Vickers after Kenny Atkinson. But given how the
season unfolded, I know there were a lot of injuries,
but just the rhetoric around the team and then also
just knowing about what was published in the Athlete immediately afterwards,
are you surprised that they're back in Like, what is
basically the we don't know what's going on with the
Icecale core right now, obviously, but they're basically just ran
it back where it seemed like in that moment maybe
that was a prisoner of the moment type thing, but
it was almost not that I advocated for it. I
personally was surprised that they're running it back to this degree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely is a little surprising.
Speaker 3: I mean when I saw that Athletic article come out
and just you know, when the playoffs came to a conclusion,
I was like, well, you know, like we're probably going
to see this core get split up to some extent, right, Like,
We're probably going to see a little bit of a shakeup,
because that's just the way that the NBA operates. And
you know, I think the Athletic article got cited.
Speaker 2: A whole lot and nothing really came of it.
Speaker 3: You know, it was funny to see that aggregated to
the extent that it was. But then like the follow
up stuff of like Darius Garland like reportedly being really
mad that people were saying that because he didn't want
to leave, and then you even hear like Brian Windhorn
kind of alluded that to later on his podcast where
he's like, you know, Garland never wanted out. This was
maybe like an agent gone rogue type thing. I don't
think it's even that, Like, I think it's just one
of those conversations, Like if I had to guess, when
I looked at that playoff series, Garland was basically put
into an off ball roll, a shooting guard type role,
and I wouldn't be surprised if you know, there was
conversations about, Okay, well, what's the role going to be
moving forward? If we're not using a point guard as
a point guard, would it be better to have a
mutual party in the ways or Like I'm obviously just
speculating here, but I think the way that it was
portrayed in that article just did not match up with reality.
Speaker 2: Because if it was a situation where.
Speaker 3: You know, Donovan wanted Jared gone or he wanted Darius
gone as a condition of extending, that probably would have happened,
because he did end up extending, right, So I think
Donovan's extension was kind of the ultimate vote of confidence
for what they currently have and a beef that hey,
you know, there were external factors that led to where
we got last season. We still kind of accomplished the
goal that we stated on media Day, but we feel
like there's still some meat left on the bone here
with this group and we want to explore that space.
Speaker 1: Was there were any of the extensions surprising to you?
The Evan Mobile one just wasn't. And then I think
Dona Mitchell people were still wondering was he going to
sign it, what was it going to look like when
he signed, and so maybe the terms were a little
bit surprising. I personally, maybe I was reading too much
into the athletic piece. Was just shocked when I saw
the Jared Allen extension.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Donovan one didn't surprise me. It kind of
seemed pretty clear that the Knicks had moved on from
pursuing him in a lot of ways. And like, realistically speaking,
when it comes to Donovan, my belief has been that
he cares about winning more than market Like, I think
that that is a guy who's number one priority is
where can I kind of go the furthest and going
to Miami, who finished worse than the Cavs that have
limited assets that they'd have to kind of deplete to
get there. That would be a lifestyle choice that's not
a basketball choice. I would argue probably even the Knicks,
if they had to give up a whole bunch of
assets to get Donovan, I don't. You're still stuck with
kind of that undersized backward with Donovan and Jalen Brunson,
and you don't have that same defensive infrastructure to make
up for it. Brunson, you know, the last few years,
has rated out as a much worse defender than Darius Garland.
You're going to need to find defense, and you'd probably
be sending that defense out to get Donovan.
Speaker 2: So I wasn't surprised by that.
Speaker 3: Jared One definitely did not necessarily from you know, a
trade standpoint, but he left money on the table, like
serious money on the table. When when you look at
his current contract that he's on and you know the
ability to only extend a certain percentage above that amount,
I was very surprised because this is such a value
contract to have him, you know, getting like Andrew Nemhard
or less than Andrew Nemhard money for near all star
level production. So for him to kind of extend add
those three years onto the deal that are basically what
Hardenstein's getting right now. In a future cap like that
is once again going to be a value contract. So
I think I'm less married to the two big concept
than I have been in the past. But I think
whether you are on team run it back or team
let's find a deal, the extension is a very good
thing because I think it raises his value to a
contending team, which makes them more attractive as a trade asset.
And the Calves and probably in their eyes, view.
Speaker 2: Themselves as a contending team.
Speaker 3: So having that contract on the book is pretty valuable
for them as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if it had like the I looked
at it in two ways where I wonder if he
it was a reaction like what happened on the market
this year when you saw so many non megastars get repressed.
And then the best way, it seems like to get
paid right now is for your team to value you
and just will like they'll just resign you for a
ton of money. And knowing that Evan Mobley's in Cleveland,
if you pass forward two years and they're paying him
at that point, it's well, we're the cat's going to
be prepared to give him that big money deal if
he was still there. So but either way, I do
agree with your point that whether they plan on keeping
him or if this is a contract that gets moved,
he's more valuable to them now than he was before
he signed the extension, which is again why it struck
me that it was actually signed. This leads into the
decision to move on from JB. Bickerstaff, though, But like
so they decide to run it back. As you said,
they think there's more meat left on the bone, but
they think they saw enough last season, despite all the
mitigating circumstances, to decide it was time to move on
from JB. Bicker Staff. How do you strike that balance
to be like, well, this group clearly has more to
extract from it, but we're going to read enough into
this season to move on from the head coach. Anyway,
I think.
Speaker 3: There was enough noise kind of looking back on the
reporting that he had kind of lost the locker room,
and I think when that occurs, no matter how good
you are tactically, you basically have to make a decision
or are we sticking with the coach or are we
sticking with the roster is currently constructed? And I think,
you know, for the Cavs, that's an obvious choice to
stick with the raw.
Speaker 2: During that scenario.
Speaker 3: It was the first year that I felt the Cavs
weren't more than the some of their parts. And you know,
injuries definitely played a factor, but you know, just from
a possession to possession by in level, I didn't feel
that it was there this season. I felt like they
weren't kind of stacking successes, like they weren't taking what
worked well and then you know, adding sets to it
and or like here's our primary look on a play,
what's our second and third option that we're going to
go to. It almost felt like things were getting simplified
as the year went on, and there was just less
buy and there was more isolation play, which historically they've
kind of been a low isolation team for these last
couple of years. I just felt that the level of
buy and just wasn't there anymore. And when when that happens,
and you know, you hear reports about you know, not
necessarily talking to the players as frequently as he used to,
or whatever the case may be, I think those are
the type of situations where a mutual parting of ways
is beneficial because honestly, like I think JB is going
to do a really good job in Detroit. I think
that that's a really smart hire for them. But sometimes
in the NBA, you know, those voices kind of reached
their expiry date, and in the case of JB and
the Calves, I think I think it was fair to
say that that point had kind of been reached.
Speaker 1: What do you make of the decision to hire Kenny
Atkinson and do you have any just thoughts or insight
into how we can expect the Calves to change under
his stewardship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought it was an interesting hire. You know,
when we were looking at the candidates, one of the
things that I felt strongly about was I did not
want a first time head coach. I wanted someone that
had some head coaching experience. I just think when you're managing,
you know, star personalities and whatnot, and you're handling the
pressure of this kind of a situation, I don't want
that to be an Adriane Griffin situation. Right Where do
you know, no matter how good you are from a
tactical standpoint, no matter how well you know the game
making that translate and doing the personality portion of this
from a head coaching perspective, isn't something that just comes
naturally that can be assumed. I do think it's interesting
when you look at Kenny, what he's accomplished as a
head coach in the NBA is very similar to JB Right,
Like you took a team that was not very good,
got it out of the lottery and got it to
the playoffs. In fact, like he's accomplished less as a
head coach. But I really did like in the introductory
press conference with Kenny Atkinson, how he spoke to you know,
learning from the Golden State experience. I think the benefit
of being, you know, an associate head coach on a
championship team. I think you benefit from that experience more
if you already have some head coaching experience, because then
you know, all right, what were my strengths and weaknesses
when I was in that position. And then you're looking
at Steve Kerr in a championship run and seeing how
he manages those same type of situations. And you know,
he talked about that extensively in you know, his interviews
and press conferences and whatnot, of learning to be less
rigid as a coach, getting the input from the players,
really making it a collaborative process, being a sponge right,
and I just really liked everything that he had to
save from that. And you know, I think sometimes when
it comes to basketball, we talk about coaches as kind
of like finished products that we're trying to figure out are.
Speaker 2: They good or are they bad?
Speaker 3: When in reality, they're just like players, where they have
good and bad years. They can learn from their experiences,
or they can learn the wrong lessons and regress as
a coach.
Speaker 2: I think it's a good swing to take.
Speaker 3: And you know, I do think the fact that he
is regarded as one of the stronger player development coaches
that we have in the league. I think that's beneficial
for a team that still is relying on a lot
of internal growth to take those steps forward.
Speaker 1: I think it also helps too, because people point out
the concern about look how things unfolded in Brooklyn once
he had the stars there. The situation was so unique
because he was already there and so you spent years
laying this certain culture and it just gets upended, like
the whole thing was meteoric and how quickly it happened,
So there's a difference in how it's happening here. And
also he's coming into this situation rather than just he's
already there and the ground is shifting beneath his feed
And so that on top of what you just mentioned
about having that experience now with the Warriors of Yeah,
because before he gets to Brooklyn, like he just wasn't
with the same type of star players that he was
like Yo in Atlanta and stuff like that, they had
a golden State. So I think those two factors made
me I would have liked the higher regardless, because I
like the way he coaches. I like the way his
teams play. He seems to get This is diffferent because
the Cavs are so good, but he does seem to
like get more runway out of his teams, like when
he's not dealing with as many star players. So I
would have liked it regardless, but I like it even
more knowing those two factors like sort of colliding.
Speaker 3: And it also was encouraging to hear stories of you know,
Draymond and Steph reaching out to Donovan A and Darius
you know obviously both of those guys have relationships with
Stephan Draymond as well, and them being like Kenny really
learned from this experience, Like Kenny played a big role
in us winning a championship like Ken Kenny's the guy
that's going to help get you over the mountaintop. And
I definitely shared some of those concerns with Brooklyn of okay,
like you got it done with role players, but you
didn't get it done with stars. But you also got
to remember who those stars were and how difficult those
stars were. One of them, in fact, I think his
quote was, we don't need a coach. Those were also
stars that weren't happy with the coach that they handpicked.
Speaker 2: To coach the teams.
Speaker 3: Those are stars that on multiple occasions have not been
happy with the franchises that they handpicked going to that
reached those expiry dates very very very quickly. So I
think this is a little bit of a different situation.
And I think one of the things that doesn't get
talked about enough when it comes to the Cavs, and
you know, a lot of the focuses on two guards,
two bigs and all like, historically.
Speaker 2: Have teams won like that.
Speaker 3: The thing to remember is like historically a lot of teams,
there's not a lot of teams that have won without
a top ten like a consensus top ten player and
the Cavs. Like, as good as Donovan is, he's not
a consensus top ten player. The teams that have one
with those type of players usually get production from a
whole lot of different guys. You surround them with all
star level talent. I think the Cavs have four all
star caliber players on their roster, So getting all four
of those guys to work and managing those personalities, I
think that's a different skill set. Then you know, we
have a hierarchy of two super duper stars and everyone
else is just falling in line.
Speaker 1: It's funny you say about Dona Mitchell. I think this
is probably a season he came closest to being a
consensus top ten players. I had him on my first
team All NBA before the injury both knuked his performance,
and like then he just wasn't eligible too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's and that's part of why I say consensus
because in my mind, like I always think tiars matter
so much more than rankings, right, Like, there might be
you know, five top ten players in the league in
any given year, and I definitely think Donovan is in that,
you know, caliber of guy that can outplay any player
in the league in a playoff series. I felt that
way about Kyrie Irving back in the day, where you
know people wouldn't have them necessarily as a top ten player,
but we could also see him outplay Steph in multiple finals. Right, Like,
you're of that caliber, but it's still a different thing
than when you're that consensus Lebron James type guy, and
you know that that takes some that takes some adjusting.
But I honestly think like he's closer to like a
Tatum than Tatum is to a Lebron caliber guy. Right
Like Boston won a championship without Tatum really playing that. Well,
that's not the case for like a Joel Embiid or
a Nikola Jokic or Lebron James and all that. I
think from a Cavs standpoint, if they're going to want
to contend, it's going to need to look similar to Boston,
where you know, if one of the stars doesn't have it,
we have other guys that are able to contral be
at a star level for a playoff series and help
raise the tie day and give the team a chance
to compete.
Speaker 1: I think that's also kind of what I saw for
Donovan Mitchell during that injury stretch. Where you don't have mobily,
don't have deres gone on in the stuff he was
doing as balancing in terms of being the floor general
for everybody else, but also having to carry the offense
as a score. Even dating back to his time in Utah,
I just never seen a balancing act like that from him.
And it continued along this trend of for the most part,
the Donovan Mitchell experience in Cleveland. For me, and I'm
curious how you feel about this, it is just it's
exceeded even what my expectations were when I had pretty
long you know, I was higher on the Caves last
year and we did this than you were turned out.
I was wrong injuries, really new to that. But like
so it's exceeded my expectations, just the Donovan Mitchell experience
in Cleveland.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it definitely exceeded mine.
Speaker 3: I was not incredibly high on Donovan Mitchell prior to
him coming into the Caves. I was a little skeptical
win when the trade went down. You know, looking at
his tenure in YOUWTI, he had one season of career
average efficiency, right the majority of those years the Jazz
were better with him off the court than they were
on the court. I do think that he has grown
as a player. I've been incredibly impressed with the way
that he carries himself both on and off the court,
and I'm really encouraged by his ability to continue to grow.
I think that stretch with Garland and MOBILEI out was
the best playmaking that I'd seen from him, really, really,
really impressive. You know, obviously there's a disclaimer that you know,
they won eleven and three in those games with Donovan
and Jarrett. They only played two teams within above five
hundred record. One was the Milwaukee who was below five
hundred after the firing of Adrian Griffin and with an
interim coach at the time, and the other one was Orlando,
who we know that they're better than they beat them
in a playoff series, so you know, maybe that had
something to do with it. But I do think his
playmaking took another step forward last year, and I just
think that the infrastructure that the Calves have had, Like
He's talked in the past about how you know, he
benefits from playing off of a point guard, whether it
was Ricky Rubio, Mike Conley, and then you know Darius.
He had his best individual season they both had their
best individual seasons in twenty two to twenty three, So
I think, you know, that muscle memory of handling that
playmaking load is going to help as they stagger. I
think it's also going to help as we transition to
a Kenny Atkinson offense where you're going to have a
lot of guys initiating, You're going to have a lot
of guys responsible for creating and having Donovan improve as
a playmaker, I think is going to fit neatly into
what Kenny wants to do.
Speaker 1: So before we get into more of the granular aspects
of this team, its upcoming season, what is the biggest
single development storyline whatever that you're just looking at or
going to be monitoring, not just heading into next season,
but over the course of it.
Speaker 3: You know, you bring on someone that covers the calves
all the time so they don't give the same answers
that the national folk.
Speaker 2: Are going to do.
Speaker 3: But I think I've got to go default here and
say the growth of Evan Mobley. I flat out think
when you are building an offense around two smaller guards,
you need to have a front court initiator for it
to work. Right, Like we saw that with Toronto when
they won the championship with Fred Van Vlieta and Kyle
Lowry playing major minutes together. You had that with Marc
Gasol right, and Kawhi Leonard was able to do some
of that. You need to have a front court initiator
to alleviate the pressure and allow those guards to not
have to face you know, the traps and the craft
that defenses can throw at them. So Evan Mobley developing
as a secondary initiator for the offense and being that
at least valve and allowing Donovan and Darius to get
easier looks off ball at times, I think that is
what helps make their offense more multifaceted and gives them
a chance to compete against the Boston's, New York, Philly,
Milwaukee's of the world, because you know, the thing about
them in the playoffs is their defense is held up
their defense. Well, actually their offense and defense was better
against Boston than Dallas' was.
Speaker 2: Their defense with both guards.
Speaker 3: And only one big has been elite in the regular
season in the playoffs, right, Like so often people say
you need to have Jared Allen and Evan Mobley to
make Donovan and Darius work defensively. No, No, it worked
really really damn well with both guards and just one
of the bigs.
Speaker 2: Even in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: They outscored Boston with Darius and Donovan and Mobley on.
Speaker 2: The court for the playoff series.
Speaker 3: Right, Like the thing that hasn't translated, whether it's one big,
whether it's two bigs, whether it's two guards, whether it's
one guard, the offense has not translated to the playoffs.
And I think getting mobilely to the point where he
can help be that front court initiate of the offense
gives them the best chance to make what's worked well
in the regular season at times to something that can
you know, be viable in the playoffs and give them
a chance to compete.
Speaker 1: Now what needs to be done on Mobley's part, And
I do think this eventually ties in the question of
where you're at with the dual big setup for him
to reach that level. I think the obvious low hanging
through we saw a little bit of it when he
came back from injury is taking three pointers. He was
almost a two a game from there. Hit on a
nice clip didn't necessarily hold up in the playoffs, but
like to do what you're asking him to do it
seems like one there needs to be more space and
he's going to be part of generating that space. But
too there's gonna need to be other things like can
he tighten up his handle and not just in space
but in traffic. But if you're looking at that role
or for him to actualize that ceiling, what's the one
thing that you'll be monitoring them most closely about his development,
like to make that happen to him to fulfill that role.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if I can pick one thing, it's
it would be the handle, Like I want the handle
to improve because I think that would help, you know,
him be a more consistent initiator of the offense. I
think that would help him be a threat and be
able to put rim pressure on. My favorite stat is
Evan Mobley last year despite missing you know, a good
chunk of the season with that surgery, he made more
threes last season than Bam ad of Bios made in
his career and Zion Williams Williamson has made in their careers.
Like they don't get talked about in that way, right
Like Bam, you know he hit some three so with
a shorter line in FEBA competition and it's, oh my god,
is this the year stretch five Bam?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: And we're we're putting kelll way or here to to
play the five, and BAM's moving over to the four, right,
like he's what four years five years older than Evan
Mobley and Mobiley's made more threes last season than Bam
has in his career. Like, I would like to see
the volume go up, right, you shot thirty seven percent
last year.
Speaker 2: I'd like to see that tick up.
Speaker 3: The three three attempts per game. I think that's where
I would feel comfortable, But I don't. I don't want
to see him taking more than that. What I want
to see is him, you know, being able to put
that riom pressure on, being able to handle the ball,
bringing it up in transition and helping them up their pace.
Like that's the kind of stuff that can help unstick
the offense. And it like you don't hear Pelicans folks
talk about well like we need, uh, you know, a
stretch five to work around Zion right because we have
Herb Jones out there who shoots like Isaac O Korro
and gets ignored at the exact same rate. And you know,
we we have Yonis who take one three a game,
although he's gone to Washington, like you don't hear that,
But you don't hear that because Zion is able to
negate that spacing issue by his ability to create. So
I think I want to see that from Evan mobile
more than anything else. And like if I could, you know,
gift him with the one skill or one thing from
you know, the summer workout videos to have translated, it's
definitely that.
Speaker 1: I also wonder too with those two specifically, I actually
do think Pelicans fan well, I guess they want any
sort of five on the team right now, but I
do think that it was kind of a yeah they did.
There was kind of.
Speaker 2: When well, Carter JUNI you're not on there, Sorry to
get sidetracked, but.
Speaker 1: With Zion and Bam, it's they can score as a
play finisher in such like a physical way that and
even's Iron on the ball, like he's not your traditional
big and I wonder if Evan Mobley I think he's
gotten better at that, but like that was also a
concern about how he's going to deal with contact and physicality.
So even if he as a play finisher, felt like
more of a physical presence. I wonder if the discourse
around him would be different. I also think he probably
just set like the bar too high for himself where
he was my Defensive Player of the Year pick, not
this past he's obviously, but the one before, and then
just he sets the bar so high through his first
like year, and then the Cavs are quote unquote honest
accelerated timeline because of the Donovan Mitchell trade. I do
wonder how that's also impacted how people view him too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, to give him some credit too,
I think they're on an accelerated timeline because of Evan Mobley,
right Like, they were a lottery team and drafting Evan
Mobley immediately made them a elite defense, right And once
you have that end of the floor figured out, you
can make a move for Donovan Mitchell, right like. So
I think you know, his growth has kind of helped
accelerate that timeline as well. So, but he's definitely a
victim of that to some extent. But you look at
it from a per thirty six possession kind of standpoint,
is averaging career highs and everything, right like, his minutes
came down just when he was on minute restriction, but
like points, field goal percentage, three point percentage, you know,
defensive metrics, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Efficiency, It was all career highs.
Speaker 3: I just think, you know, he's just got around out
his game and do things that he's already shown at
a higher frequency. Right, Like he shot better from mid
range last year. I think that's one of the big
differentiations between he and Bam is Bam is that kind
of credible threat to shoot from the free throw line
at all times. You can run an offense and have
him as that hub at you know, at the nail,
and you have to respect his jumper from that spot.
Speaker 2: If Mobiley can do that, I think.
Speaker 3: That opens up a wide variety of options, and it
makes easier to have Alan in the dunker spot and
run some actions with the guards and whatnot. So I
think what he needs to do isn't something that he's
never shown.
Speaker 2: Right, Like he's shown it in spurts. He'll hit those shots.
Speaker 3: You know, I forget which team he hit the game
winning mid range shot against it. He's hit some big
threes coming down in the clutch in the fourth quarter
and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: He's just got to do it. Consistently and at a
higher volume.
Speaker 1: The I guess the two concerns I would have though,
is so Donald Mitchell Darius Garland can play fantastic, like
they work off the ball like defense need to respect them,
but we also kind of you know, you've talked about
it a couple of times about the concern about moving
Darius Garland off the ball too much to where it
sort of disinvolves him. And so is the opportunity going
to be there for Evan Mobley to explore like the
depths of like getting to that point with like him
as an individual ceiling of course, but then also if
you're trying to maximize his time alongside Jared Allen, like
is there going to be sort of enough reps to
go around there to It's not a matter of Donovan,
I want to make clear anyone listening. It's not a
matter of Donovan Mitchell Darius Garland can't. It's how much
do you want to invest in moving them away away
from the ball to kind of help facilitate the optimal
version of Evan Mobley.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a really good question, And you know,
you also have to factor in the growth that Jared
Allen showed last year, right Like, I thought, you know,
it is the best season of his career, and he
was passing like really well the short role, and he
was someone that you could initiate offense through at times,
Like you know, it's it's a good problem to have,
but it is a problem to have at times. And
you know, I think what he's going to need to
do within that starting lineup is going to be different
than you know, over the course of the game. Like
I think, if he's taking three threes a game, I
want those threes to occur when Jared Allen is on
the court, right Like, when Jared Allen is not on
the court, I want to see, you know, let's run
some more offense through him, right Like, I think, you know, historically,
the funny thing to look at is when you look
at the two years worth of lineup data, Evan Mobley
and Donovan Mitchell as a pairing without Garland and Allen
does not work. Their net rating is you know about
where the Brooklyn and that's where last season. But him
and Darius work incredibly well, Donovan and Jared work incredibly well.
Darius and Jared did not work really well. So I
think that's a really interesting dynamic. But ultimately, like those
guys will play eighteen minutes together per game, that's typically
where you're at. You do still have kind of thirty
minutes to explore the space where it's going to be
one garden. It's going to be one big out there.
It will be interesting to see though, what happens in
in closing minutes, right, And you know, maybe this is
one of the benefits of having Jared on a value contract, right,
Like that deal apparently is supposed to be like fifteen
sixteen percent of the cap once those cap numbers come in,
like fifteen sixteen percent, Like we're talking about max Druce
money in terms of you know, percentage of the cap.
Speaker 2: If you need to play him.
Speaker 3: Twenty eight minutes in a game rather than you know,
thirty four, that is something that you can do and
like you're not kind of handcuffed to make those decisions.
But I think if we want to look at the
best version of what this CAS roster can be, it's
maximizing those minutes when you know all four of them
are out there together twenty two to twenty three. They
did that, they were tremendous. You look at the last
forty one games of that season, and Darius was getting
twenty two and eight, Mobiley was getting his eighteen and ten,
Jared was getting his fifteen and ten, Donovan was getting
his like twenty eight and four whatever he was getting right, Like,
all four of them were eating and they were playing
well alongside in one another. But I think making it
so that there's the buy into the system that the
minutes together are maximized, the minutes of hard are maximized,
where it's not, as you know, Stark of okay, well,
what are these pairings like, figuring out how to make
Donovan and Mobile work, figuring out how to get you know,
Darius and j back on the same page like they
were in the All Star season. Like, I think all
of that stuff is going to be kind of one
of those interesting things to track with his coaching staff.
Speaker 1: My final concern with it would be that there's a
chance Evan Mobley does all these things and the Cavs
play it perfectly to some extent may not matter because
and I'm not comparing him to this player, but we
saw it in OKAC when Josh Giddy was actually taking
and hitting threes and defenses still didn't care because it
was never enough at a clip, so it was still
a It still made Okac thunder when he was on
the floor with some of these other guys a lot
easier to defend. And so I'm gonna be very interested
to track that dynamic. But my own answer to my
own concern has been you mentioned that first season they had,
they were in the ninety six percentile of offensive efficiency
with all four of those guys on the court, and
I think three of their most their three top used
lineups all included a fifth member of the rotation that
was a below average shooter. You would call them. It
was asco Quorro at the time, Carris Lavert. I think
that might have been the Lamar steven Gee. I can't remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that Lamar was the only one that it
didn't work, I believe.
Speaker 1: And so like that's what I continue to let John
Tore was like, Okay, well, even if it's like like
if Evan Mobley, if that version ember Mobley's hitting threes
and defense is they're gonna have to respect him a
little bit more so they can play and say, you
know what, we're fine with his three attempts per game
and he can make two of them and we're just
not going to care every time. But I point back
to that season where we just have this extended sample
I would call it at full strength. It was worse
circumstances when you look at the supporting cast. So I
almost don't understand how this isn't going to work now
if everybody's healthy. So it's like I've concerned, Like I
have concerns, but I'm like, well, just let's go look
at the first season when they had less experience and
less talent like together, I just so that's that's where
I'm at.
Speaker 3: And that goes back to what I said before about
if you wanting to build a contending team without a
consensus top ten player where it's just inarguable that you
had this superstar Lebron James level.
Speaker 2: Talent, you don't bridge that gap by.
Speaker 3: Trading all star level talent for role players that just
you know, fit an archetype, you know, like a big wing,
Like let's move Jared Allen for Cam Johnson. Okay, well,
like now you have a big wing, but like you're
getting worse from a talent perspective, right, like or you know,
as much as I love Brian win Horse, like the
fact that he is so adamant that Dono Mitchell can
be the only ball handler on the team and we
got to run a helio centric offense with spot up
guys in one big around Donald Mitchell.
Speaker 2: Like that never works.
Speaker 3: Like Dallas learned that lesson and got Kyrie for Luca,
right Like you know, like that, like Donovan Mitchell playing
Russell Westbrook martyr ball is not going to bridge the gap, right, Like,
this is not what needs to be done here, or
like we have to get all star level talent.
Speaker 2: We need to maximize all of this talent.
Speaker 3: I don't think Donovan's as good of a playmaker as
Russ was, and it didn't work with Russ, right, Like, uh,
I share some of your concerns. For for sure, I
think if Mobley is, you know, taking three threes a
game at the same percenta you did last year, you know,
thirty seven percent, I agree with you. I don't think
people are like sprinting out to the three point line
to go guard him, but I think him being a
viable threat there is at least important because if he's
out there and he gets the ball and you're completely
sagging off of him, all right, I'm just going to
do a little dribble hand and off to to you know,
Garland or Mitchell. I'm I'm going to take this shot
myself and I'll convert some of these. But I think
that the handle, that's where it becomes so important, because
if you're giving a seven footer that's you know, added
strength that finishes well historically around the rim, that has
a good floater, good touch from you know, that mid range.
If you're giving him a head start and you're flat
footed at defender, sitting in the paint, you are going
to get exposed.
Speaker 2: You are not you know, that's why people come out
at Yannest.
Speaker 3: They don't want to give him that running start, even
though he can't shoot from three right.
Speaker 2: So that's why I think that that is so important.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think guys that shoot well but
at a low volume, I think that's more of a
concern at the perimeter than it is for a power
forward or a center right. Like, I think that's just
a different equation, and that's where we run into someone
like Isaac o Korro who shot thirty nine percent from three.
But because the volume isn't there, guys are going to
leave him.
Speaker 2: Why open.
Speaker 3: I think he took two threes with the defender within
six feet last year, and you know, to go back
to the Pelicans example, exact same thing happened to Herb Jones.
I think he shot forty percent but did not have
a single contested three in the playoffs because people are like, well,
if you're going to shoot forty percent, but you're taking
three threes like worst case scenario hit one or two here, like,
we can live with that in order to pack the
pain and take away you know, more consistent threats like
a Zion Williamson.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting. I would say definitely when he's
at the five, Like, I don't think it matters. I
still think we're at the point where with us from
the four spot, I still think you could see some
of the like similar ill.
Speaker 2: Effects there of that, oh for sure, for sure.
Speaker 3: I just think you know, you can mitigate some of
that by by improving the handle.
Speaker 2: It would be my argument.
Speaker 1: So Darius Garland had the numbers on his season ended
up being mostly fine, like when you just look at
the individual numbers, but it was just a very uneven campaign.
How much is there actually there's stuff he could do better?
We've talked about his finishing around the basket in the
the past. I also wonder if they're able to open
up more space for him, if that just improves. You've
mentioned I know you've been an advocate of like, well,
you don't want to disinvolve him from the offense too much,
like in that playoff series it felt like he wasn't
on the ball enough. Is there any level of concern
here or do we just talk this up to that
man had his jaw wired shut and just the physical
toll that has to extract from you of probably losing weight,
not being as strong, that we just need to write
off whatever issues we had with him last season.
Speaker 3: I don't think we write it off entirely, because I
think you know, when you have a kind of consistent
injury history, that's something you have to factor right, Like
you have to think about that with Darius, You have
to think about that with Donovan, Like Donovan's missed more
games than Darius the last four or five years.
Speaker 2: Like that, we have to think about that.
Speaker 3: We have to think, you know, about guard depth, because
these guys are going to miss some time. But in
terms of you know, the stuff that went wrong, like
I do try I do chalk that up, you know,
the injuries. You know, people focus on on the jaw
injury rightly, so you know, he did have the situation
with his grandmother passing as well, where you know, he's
incredibly close to his family, so after games, he would
fly back home to be there with his family, then
fly back to Cleveland or wherever they were playing, and
then you know, play another game and fly back to
his family and kind of do that for an extended
period of time. And you know, when you're already working
your way back from an injury, that's going to be difficult.
And you know, in the long list of things that
went wrong for him last year, I think people overlook
what happened at the start of the year, right He
and Donovan started the year with hamstring injuries. He injured
his shooting hand, I believe in the first game back
and was wearing you know, a brace for about a
month kind of on and off trying to figure that out.
And I think that really impacted his ability to handle
the ball. Like you saw the turnovers go way up
for him. He saw a reluctance to take three points
because he just couldn't grip the ball ironically, like his
stats were still fine in that stretch because he was
actually finishing really well at the rim and he was
drawing free throws. He just became such like he was
seeking out contact to such an extent to kind of
compensate for the fact that he couldn't really grip the
ball to shoot that he ended up ramming as Johan
Ta Kristavs for Sincas and things went sideways there. But
you know, that Boston injury was terrible timing because at
that point the hand injury had to recovered and we
did get like this extended stretch of oh, there's you know,
the twenty two to eight Darius on great efficiency not
turning the ball over that we're used to, right, Like.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: A lot of the Darius concern that a hear, especially
from national podcasts, is like, well, you know, he just
hasn't been the same since Donovan was there, Like it
just you know, his game has completely fallen off, and
that like.
Speaker 1: Right off that first season together. Then I guess like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 3: Like he averaged i think zero point one fewer points
per game, but actually more per thirty six he just
played fewer minutes. His efficiency went way up across the board,
His defensive metrics went through the roof. His assistant turnover
ratio was second to only Nikola Jokic among like high
usage players like this is a guy that like that.
That was the player that we saw and I was
really expecting to see a step forward from him in
a leap going into next year. When we talked to
him in media day, he was talking about how we
really wanted to up the volume for his three point attempts,
which of course got sidetracked and derailed by an injury
to the shooting hands. So I have some concerns because
I think when you're building positive momentum and you have
a setback like this and you know, just kind of
one of these throwaway years, I think it is a
challenge to get back to not only where you were before,
but then you know, take that step forward that you
were anticipating taking. That's, you know, not something that should
just be taken for granted and assume that it's going
to occur. But if I had to bet, at the
very least, I think we're getting Darris going back to
who he was in twenty two to twenty three. I'm
still you know, I'm emotionally and this is probably you know,
me being an optimist, but I think we're still going
to see that step forward in the leap that we
should have seen last season.
Speaker 1: What is because I assume that he texted you on
the regular what's going on with Isco Coro?
Speaker 3: So I think that's a you know, it's a complicated
situation because you alluded to it before, where you know,
kind of the middle class under this new CBA is
just getting squeezed. And I think from the cast perspective,
they don't want to enter the luxury tax until next
season because you know that.
Speaker 2: The repeater is tough. You saw. I think Bomber letting
Paul George walk.
Speaker 3: For nothing is a bit of like a signal to
fans that hey, things are going to be a little
bit different under this and we have to, you know,
kind of take this into consideration. The reporting out there,
I think from what the Cavs are reportedly offering, I
don't know. I think to the people that aren't familiar,
even though we got partnership with the Caves, we do
not do reporting. We do not talk to the team
about this stuff.
Speaker 1: We just assume they ran moves by you to make
sure you guys are all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I wish they did. You know, Isaaca
Coral your podcast.
Speaker 1: If we gave Isaaca Coro thirteen million.
Speaker 3: Dollars, he'd be on a lifetime contract at this point
if they consulted the podcast. Now, I do think, you know,
that mid level range, I think would would be fair
for Cora.
Speaker 2: But you know, it.
Speaker 3: Becomes difficult to fill out their roster. And I wouldn't
be surprised if they're you know, just listening to some
reporting from Chris Fiedoor and other people on the beat,
like they're still exploring options, right, Like they're still looking
at you know, potential Karroslavert moves, right and if you
can find one of those deals that shed some salary,
maybe it makes them more feasible to sign a coorl
to extension that works for both sides.
Speaker 2: You know, I.
Speaker 3: I do think, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if
they're out there shopping him as well, right like even
in you know, in combined with Karas laverta to see
what's out there. You know, when when I hear the
name of Cam Johnson, like I'm not for it for
Jared Allen, but if you're talking about that kind of package,
I can see, you know, balancing the roster out that
way and finding a way to add some length and
from some versatility could be attractive. So I think he's
in a little bit of a roster crunch. They used
the first round pick on a guy that's going to
be playing a very similar position as well. There's depth
at the shooting guard position with sam Merril Ti Jerome
is probably going to play some minutes there, so you know,
it's it's a bit of a leverage game, and I
think a lot of players kind of in his position
are facing that when it comes to negotiations with teams.
Speaker 1: I was excuse me, I will say, I can already
see myself pulling my hair out. If Cam Johnson is
playing next to Evan Moble and Jared Allen and the
Cavs have a below average defensive rebounding rate in those minutes, That's.
Speaker 2: That's why we got Jalen Tyson. Baby, don't don't you worry.
He's here.
Speaker 3: He's here to fill those rebounding gaps. Getting his triple
doubles in Summer League or or damn close to it.
He he came one to us as short, but everyone
was missing those shots on the tenth one. But I'm I'm,
I'm all aboard the Jalen Tyson the express here.
Speaker 1: So I guess, just based off you read on it,
they're like ten point seven below the tax right now
is what I have them at. So if I sycle
Cored's going to get more than that, it's probably as
part of a sign and trade where he's eltwhere there's
like another move that the Cavs are making, because I.
Speaker 3: Don't think he's going to get signed in trade this summer,
like I think, you know, I think the Q qualifying
offer is possible. I you know, I think an extension
is certainly possible. I don't know if that ten point
seven includes some sort of icycle.
Speaker 2: Coral cap hold. I haven't dove into the finances a
little bit, but I.
Speaker 1: Don't think it does. But I'll have to double check that.
I would say, though the qualifying offer might not be
a great scenario for them because it nukes his trade
value since his bird rights won't transfer.
Speaker 3: Right And I think it's eleven million as well, if
I'm not mistaken. So you know, it's like you know,
we're right back into that scenario. So you know, I
expect a resolution at some point because something does have
to happen. But yeah, it wouldn't surprise me to see,
you know, a move to free up some space or
a move to you know, go over for a player
that they feel is a little more worthwhile. Like I
think that that is certainly possible. But as much as
he took a step forward last year in the regular season,
and you know, I don't think they win Game seven
against Orlando without Ocoro, I think, you know, Game two
stands out as well as a game where he had
a very impactful stretch in that series.
Speaker 2: You know, the.
Speaker 3: Hesitancy to take shots in the playoffs just really has
cost him. I think he's a player that would benefit
from a more structured offense, a movement offense like Kenny
Atkinson plays, you know, just a better understanding what he
should be doing out there on the court, because he
does have really good instincts. Like I thought, he had
a really really great regular season and I think he's
one of the best on ball defenders in the league.
And usually you know, elite on ball defenders that shoot
thirty nine percent from three on over three attempts per game,
Like there's usually a spot for those teams but or
those type of players.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately for.
Speaker 3: Him, like spacing and shooting is just at such a
premium with the Cavs that I think it becomes more
of a conversation. Whereas if he played for like the
Indiana Pacers, I think, like you can play him in
the playoffs even if he's not taking threes incredibly easily
because they play up tempo and you know you need
that point of attack defense. You saw what TJ McConnell
just got from them like that of course is a
much better defender and shooter than TJ McConnell. Like I
think it would be a really seamless fit. But when
you're out there with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, like
a lot.
Speaker 2: Is expected from YouTube to make up for that shooting
deficit at those two positions.
Speaker 1: And it's also a situation with him where because of
who's already on the calves that you can't really expand
his role on the ball, and like even the stuff
he might be able to move away off the ball,
your already menacing, like that's just they might they don't
have a space to do that the way Indiana would,
and so it makes it an interesting So I'm very
curious to see how this ends. Like I'm assuming, I'm
if you had a guess, he's probably just back with
the team for next season, would.
Speaker 3: Be your Yeah, yeah, I think he'll be on the
roster opening if I had to guess.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can go through some of the
other players on the tw roster and just get your
impressions on what they did last season and what you
expect their role to be moving forward. Let's begin with
was a new edition this year. Now he's a Calves.
Now he's a CALVS vet.
Speaker 3: Max Truce Cav's a legend. Hit it right, Yeah, Max,
I think had the best season of his career. Another
guy that took a playmaking leap last season. You know,
I think Max and a lot of those guys that
played in that stretch without Mobiley and Garland, I think
one of the things that wasn't discussed enough was, you know,
we talked about how it was a light schedule. They
actually had a lot of time off during that stretch
as well, because they had that Paris trip that you know,
gave them basically a week off and an All Star
break in the middle of the season. But despite that,
the increased load that all of those guys played, like
that took a number, Like that didn't number on all
of them. Like Donovan's knee kind of went to crap
and he was shut down after the All Star break.
Dean Wade's knee went to crap, got shut down. Max
Struce's knee they had to shut him down after the
All Star break. Karris Lavert had the same issue as well,
like the physical burden of like just carrying the team
against a bunch of below five hundred teams with Garland
and Mobile like that.
Speaker 2: Cost all of those guys physically.
Speaker 3: So I think Max, you know, I probably won't need
to be counted on as much as he was last season.
Speaker 2: Ended up needing to play a lot of point guard
for the Cavs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the playmaking from him was just incredible.
Speaker 3: But like his efficiency in those games was way down
because you know, he's, you know, playing such a heavy
on ball role. He was like forcing shots at the rim,
but they just like really needed someone to take an
attempt at some point. Like I just think that he's
going to be in a role that's much more aligned
to like what we thought we were getting when when
we signed Maxtrus. I loved everything that he added to
his game. I loved the season that he had. He
was like the on off god for the Cavs. But
I think, you know, a funny stat to look at
is when you look at the games that he played
with Darius Garland last year, he shot forty five percent
from the floor in thirty nine percent from three. In
the games he played without Garland, he shot thirty seven
percent from the floor in twenty nine percent from three. Like,
that's a ten percent difference in three point percentage and
a massive gap in field goal percentage. And I think
some of that is, you know, how much easier Darius
makes life for everybody else and just you know, having
a point card to act him on the roster. And
I think some of that is how much he was
asked to do in those games, and I think that
had a toll on his efficiency, and I think that
had a toll on him physically.
Speaker 2: So I'm excited for another year, Max.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think even just the I mean, you broke
it down there, Arius Garland, but he only played six
hundred and twenty minutes with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell
on the floor, and in those minutes he shot thirty
eight point nine percent from three and fifty seven point
one percent on TUESA. And so I would guess that
if the Cavs are relatively healthy, he's going to have
an incredibly efficienciason. One that's probably closer to was that
now three years ago in Miami, or was twenty one
twenty two where he shot forty one percent from three
and like fifty six percent from two. So that would
be my guess for him. Up, I thought someone who
had has had it's not even just quietly had a
good season in Cleveland, but has having quietly like a
good couple of seasons in Cleveland, mister Carris the Vert.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if I had to guess, I think this
is Carris's last year with the Calvs. I think they
drafted his kind of successor in Jalen Tyson. Some of
them that you know is able to provide playmaking, is
able to provide shooting, is able to provide defense and
rebounding and all that kind of stuff. I'm very high
on Jalen Tyson, but I've I've been impressed with what.
Speaker 2: Carris has done.
Speaker 3: I think people get frustrated with him because the efficiency
kind of is a roller coaster where he goes through
very high highs and very low lows when it comes
to his shot making. But the playmaking has been really important,
especially when you talk about navigating the injuries that they've had.
It's been really really important that he is such a
good pick and roll ball handler that's able to make
a life easier for the bigs and generate some of
those shots in take and make some tough shots at times.
And his defense man like that, that's been the biggest
thing in his time in Cleveland. Like the defense he
played in Brooklyn and Indiana like pales in comparison to
what he's done as a cavalier.
Speaker 1: And he's really with Spider too when you look at
what he did in Utah versus what he's done in Cleveland.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, Max had some rough defensive metrics
in Miami. I think some of that was he had
to play a lot of power forward at six five.
You know, people ripe about him playing small forward, but
he was playing a lot of for in Miami. But
I do think you know, they've managed to get the
best out of all of these guys kind of individually defensively,
you know, Darius didn't have a strong defensive reputation, but
the metrics have really kind of, you know, shot up
across the board for him. You know, when when you
look at defensive EPM, he's been well above average last
couple of years. Max has improved, Donovan's improved, Caris has improved.
So you know, I think that's one of those things
that you have to give credit to the past coaching
staff and it's going to be interesting to see if
that translates to this new one under Kenny Atkinson. Not
that he hasn't you know, had a defensive reputation of himself.
I know in talking to the light Years boy, Sam
and Andy, they talked about how from what they've heard,
he played a major role in the Warriors defense in
the championship year and his influence had a big difference.
Speaker 2: So hopefully it continues.
Speaker 3: But you know, that's one of those things where you
got to give a you know, give credit to the
old coaching staff.
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 1: Dean Wade looked like he was back for a minute,
and I guess in a sense he was back because
he got injured again, right angle, right knee stuff. Really,
but what's up? You were I think approaching this upcoming
year from him last last time we did this with
like a measured dose of skepticism. Where are you sort
of at with him now? Because it seems like healthy
Dean Wade is pretty much exactly what this.
Speaker 2: He tis me that's the problem, man, Like, well, it's
been too many years. It's been too many years.
Speaker 3: That we are sitting and earnestly talking at the end
of the season being like, well, you know, if Dean
Wade was healthy.
Speaker 2: Like it's a true thing.
Speaker 3: He is a really impactful player, someone that you know,
really helps from a rebounding standpoint. He protects the rim well,
he shoots well, he can defend three through five. He's
someone that you can throw on a Jason Tatum. He's
done a great job on Tatum historically and and other
longer wings like that.
Speaker 2: It's just, you know, he can't stay healthy.
Speaker 3: And you know it's been at the end of the year,
whether it was you know, the play in or the
last two years in the playoffs, like he just hasn't
been available or hasn't been himself at that time of year, healthy,
Dean Wade really matters. You know, when you look at
the current roster construction where they don't currently have a
backup center, Dean wait's really going to matter. He might
need to play some backup five. I expect them to
bring in a center before camp. But you know, as
it currently stands, he is still a very important part
of this equation. I don't know if he's at one
hundred percent health yet. I know, when you know, media
day came around last year, he said, you know his
shoulder was that it about eighty five percent. But he
was very effective to start the year, and you know
he did have a very good stretch before the knee
issues came up. So I hope he can stay healthy.
I think, you know, he's been a very valuable part
of this. But you know, somewhere it would be nice
to fuse both like him and George Niang together and
just get you know, someone that that's available all the time,
that that is a consistent shooter, that that has you know,
no fear firing way, that can defend, that can rebound.
Like this is why when we came to last offseason,
I so badly wanted nas Reed and I so badly
wanted PJ. Washington for the Cavs because I wanted that
player that kind of brings both of those traits to
the table, someone that is perfect a stagger for with
either Mobili or Alan and also lets you get to
test drive what it looks like, you know, a potential
post Jared Allen world where you kind of have a
stretchboard that's able to provide rim protection and play defense
at the five. Like I think if you ever had
Mobili as kind of the primary starting center, you'd need
a rim protecting four like a nas Read because that
allows Mobley to still play free safety and doesn't kind
of reduce him to the Rudy Gobert role on the
defensive end.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite players from this team last season,
mister Sam Merril. Papa shot God. I'm assuming, but Papa
Shot God.
Speaker 2: Apparently a very good golfer. I was listening to a
podcast unlocked on CAS shout out Danny Cunningham. Merrill apparently
has a three handicap, which is a little bit braggy, Bud.
He's a great golfer.
Speaker 3: I don't know how much of a role he's going
to have just because of you know, he plays at
one of the deepest positions for the Cavs. That the
guard depth is wild on this team. I do think
that Tyjerome is going to to give him run for
his money when it comes to minutes as well. But
I could definitely see him being that kind of spark
plug that comes in and gives them some juice offensively
in kind of that tenth or eleventh man role.
Speaker 1: So Todd, you expect tidj your own to play like
a fairly big role then for this, if you're gonna
run out the rotation, what are just your impressions of
him then? Like he's got nice size. I think I
don't think people understand that Tydrome is like pretty big.
Speaker 2: For he's six y five. He's six five, He doesn't
turn the ball over, he shoots well from three, He's
a good defender. He would have been the perfect guard
for staggering Donovan and Darius. Unfortunately, he rolled his ankle
in the second game of the season and was done
for the year. Like it's it's wild man.
Speaker 3: Like we talked at media day, we talked to Max
Strus and we were saying, you know, when you're in Miami,
you're playing a lot of minutes without a point guard,
you have to play a lot of minutes of power
forward because of injuries. Like it was just, you know,
a very very weird season where you're out of context.
How good is it going to be to play for
Cleveland where you're going to have a point guard on
the floor at all times? There's great depth, There's Garland,
there's Jerome, there's Rubio, right, like, uh, we we just
you know, we felt so good about it, and then
by game two we hit we're down our first, second,
and third string point guards. Like that's that's ridiculous, that
absolutely ridiculous. And of course he was playing power forward.
I do expect Ti Jerome to have a role obviously.
You know, he played under Kenny Atkinson and Golden State,
so I think they have a relationship there. He's good
friends with Donovan Mitchell. I think he's the type of
role player that would have been a great fit for
them last year. But just one of those kind of
unfortunate injuries. And I think, you know, in an offseason
where they didn't make any additions outside of Jalen Tyson
and you know JT thor on a two way and
Luke Travers on a two way. I do think ty
Jerome is probably going to be one of those kind
of sneaky I don't even want to call him an addition,
but he is an addition that people aren't factoring in.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I'm I'm curious to see just because he
has a nice size, he's you know, been twenty two
to twenty three. He shot the ball pretty well, even
on some pull ups, and so that's just like a
very interesting player for what this team could need. A
fun player from the season who I just don't know
how they would ever carve out a role for moving
forward outside of injury. Craig Porter Junior thinking of him,
he's like a very odiosyncratic player when you consider the
position that he plays.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm a massive Greig Porter Junior fan. I
really like what he brings to the table.
Speaker 3: You know, sneaky old like he is the same age
as Darius, but you know, a good undrafted fine for
the Cavs, who have had a lot of success with
undrafted players like Dean Wade, like Lamar Stevens, you know,
brought up. You know, I shouldn't even say brought up
through the league because he didn't really get the opportunity
to play in the G League with the injuries, I
definitely am happy that he's on the roster as a
break glass in case of emergency guard. You know, talked
about how Darius and gone in this time and Ti
Jeromes missed a lot of time in his career. I
think there is going to be a time where Craig
Porter Jr. Is going to be important for this team. Unfortunately,
another guy that got hurt right before the playoffs, so
we didn't have the luxury of playing him, so he.
Speaker 2: Joined that very very long list for Cleveland.
Speaker 3: But I definitely think that there's going to be a
time where where Craig Porter Junior's presence on the roster manners.
Speaker 1: Where are you at with GEORGEI Yang? Later after adding him.
Speaker 3: Like less of namor than it was kind of coming in.
Carter was the bigger George Niang guy the two of us.
I mean, I George the person. I love, I love
him in interviews, I love him on podcasts.
Speaker 1: I love my nickname as well for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, he had a great nickname with you know, the
Mini van, and then they bestowed the nickname g Wagon
on him as well, which which I Love. You know,
I expect him to have a better season than he
did last year. He sneakily had a great post All
Star Break stretch for the Cavs. Just everything was going wrong,
so it kind of fell onto the radar. I expected
him to bounce back and be productive, but you know,
there's the obvious limitations with him right where he's just
not going to be able to defend in space to
the level that you know what Dean Wade would be.
When you're looking at guys competing for minutes at that position,
and you know there's the possibility that if they do
downsize and play some small maybe you know, Jalen Tyson's
getting minutes there or Max Strus gets some more minutes
a power forward like he did last season. So I
do think he's someone that's really going to help them
over an eighty two game season. But when it comes
to the playoff kind of rotation and whatnot, I think
there was a lot of issues with him against the Magic.
A lot of their minutes that went very poorly involved
George Nyeing getting targeted, particularly by Polo bank Carrol. I
think some of that was a product of, you know,
Jared Allen.
Speaker 2: Being out with the broken rib and whatnot. So I
do think, you know, it's not someone that I'm counting
on when it comes to the postseason just yet.
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of another guy you can't count on
to rebound it a consistent clip for you either, which
is something this team definitely needs as a secondary front
line present. Sounds like you're pretty high on Jalen's license.
You what are your early impressions of him? He has
this is that was the thing I heard coming into
the draft where he's ever around the Cavs was people
kept analoging him to Karroslvert a lot of the time.
And now that's obviously picked up even more steam because
he's on Carousel Birds team.
Speaker 3: He is Hobe Hawks with a three ball. That's my
favorite comp. You know, real modest expectations. I will say
these year younger than Hawks coming out of college. He
was better in college than Hawk has. He has shot
better than three from three than Hawk has. I just
really like the comp because I think they win in
similar ways where they don't blow people away with their
ability to.
Speaker 2: Blow by people.
Speaker 3: Hawks is a very good vertical athlete, but you know
that the first step isn't how he wins. He's kind
of got that crafty game where he really uses his
strength to get to the rim and finish well and
get to his spots. Jalen Tyson plays in the same
kind of way. I love his ability to fill up
a box.
Speaker 2: Or with rebounds blocks.
Speaker 3: You know, he blocked a three in Summer League, which
just surprised the hell out of me. But you know,
he's just kind of got that timing and he's got
that knack for winning. And what I really like about
him is you look at his college career and prior
to his last season, he was a very good role guy,
right Like, he shot the spot up threes at an
elite rate. You know, the defense was there, all the
kind of metrics that you wanted to see from a
three and d wing were present. Then the last season,
like he was basically the straw that stress the drink,
right Like, he was doing absolutely everything. He had Luca
levels of usage on offense, was shooting the ball really well,
but the defense slipped a little bit. And you know,
he still shot well from three, but not as well.
I'm really interested to see Okay in a more defined
role where you're playing off of good creators and whatnot,
Like is he able to kind of take that step forward,
and like, this is the type of guy that if
he hits it really moves the needle for Cleveland right
Like we've seen it time and time again with these
playoff teams where you know, whether it's a Christian Brawn
or you know, Hami hawkas like these guys that come
in that spent a little bit more time in college
that are ready to contribute right away.
Speaker 2: Maybe they're brought along slowly, but once.
Speaker 3: They hit it just completely kind of changes the complexion
of these teams and drafting a wing that does project
to be a three and D wing that can create,
that can do a variety of things that you know,
is the exact same height as a Jalen Brown, Like
that is what the Cavs need. And it's really hard
to find those type of players and they don't become
available once they hit the trade market. So I'm very
very high on on Tyson and Wood he can bring
to the team. I just don't think that that role
is going to be there at the start of the season.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious, and you've already mentioned this, just how
he ends up faring away from the ball if he's
going to get minutes from this team. But is there
a chance. I do think we tend sometimes tend to
overromanticize what rookies can do for really good teams. But
you mentioned the Nuggets, Christian Brown contributed to them winning
a title when he was a rookie. When you look
at sort of the way the front line is set
up right now, where Dean Wade always seems like he's
dealing with something, there's the uncertainty like not to put
him in the front line, like just the uncertainty with
Azgacorro right now, his contract situation, maybe just his role
moving forward, and then on top of that, maybe not
being in love with the George Niang minutes. Is there
a pathway even if it's like kind of post trade
deadline or something and they've just exhausted all their other
options and haven't found the solution that he plays a
role for this team as like a like a meaningful
role for this not not necessarily on the floor and
crunch time, but it's part of like a core part
of their maybe tertiary or secondary lineups.
Speaker 2: I think it's certainly possible.
Speaker 3: I think he is someone that maybe gives them some
flexibility to pursue a deal like that, Like you know,
talk about how they're you know, shallow at the four
or five where you know you got some backup options
at the four, but none of them are really like
kind of a true four or five where they can
actually slide over and play the center. Like if an
opportunity comes along to get like in Isaiah Stewart or
Larry Nance Junior and move on from Karaslovert, like that
might be something that they consider if they really like
what they're seeing in practice from Jalen Tyson, right, Like
if you can kind of stitch together the Krislovert role
with Tyson, Jerome Sam Merrill and maybe you know a
little bit more responsibility for Isaac okorl if you feel
confident about your ability to do that, then you can
make kind of one of those smaller consolidation trades to
go address your need to get a big wing or
to get that four or five.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: I definitely think that you know, if he hits, if
he is someone that you know appears ready and when
injuries inevitably hit, because they hit every team, hopefully not
as hard as last year, but when when those injuries hit,
like he's going to have an opportunity to prove himself
in the way that you know Craig Porter Junior did
last year. He steps up like Creig Porter Junior did
as a guy that had been in college for you know,
extended period of time. I think that that could inform
the decision making come trade deadline. Like, you know, you
don't want to like count on an eighteen year old rookie,
but this is a guy that's turning twenty two in December.
This is a guy that has physical maturity. This is
you know, someone that if he's.
Speaker 2: Going to be an NBA player and going to be
a rotation player, you're probably going to need to see
it sooner rather than later because he's a little further
along on the development curve.
Speaker 1: Are you ready to enter the lightning round cookie Cutter
portion of the podcast?
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, always ready.
Speaker 1: What is this team's biggest need right now?
Speaker 3: A four or five without a doubt of four or five.
I would love a stretch power forward that is able
to protect the rim. You know, I said Isaiah Stewart.
I would love Larry Ance Jr. I would love them
get me one of those guys. And give me some
depth at the.
Speaker 1: Big I would say, Byron Nance Junior, feels eminently gettable.
If the Hawks are serious about playing Jalen Johnson again
at plus on Yaka Kungu, so that feels like a break.
If they like Carris, like right now their backup point
guards either Dice and Daniels and or Kobe Buffkin and
so to have Carris Averts playmaking not the worst idea
in the world for them there, So that would be interesting.
Speaker 2: It would save the cas a lot of money as well.
Speaker 1: Would well, the Hawks would have to send out more
money because they don't want to pay a tax either.
Speaker 2: That's you know, that would probably be the hang up
at this point. You know, there's you know, as we would.
Speaker 3: Want to shed salary and the Hawks do not want
to pay the luxury tax for whatever that team is
going to be.
Speaker 1: Are you open to the idea of like acquiring someone
who's more of just a four or a combo wing
rather than it having to be a combo big.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah for sure.
Speaker 3: Like you know, I did mention Cam Johnson before, like
if there is an avenue there to Cam Johnson deal,
I would be very open to that. And you know,
just signing like a Javelle McGee to be the backup big,
like I bring him home, I'm here for it, or
you know, bringing back Triston Thompson as a break glass
in case emergency, Big, Like, maybe you can do that,
you know, take advantage of whatever the best opportunity is
out there. But ideally I would love, you know, that
kind of stretch.
Speaker 1: For So let's just assume, because we'd like to be
optimistic here, this roster is fully healthy. What does the
top ten rotation look like. I think it's it feels
like safe. I mean, the Isaaca coor it all makes
this so complicated, but it feels like there might be
like eight or nine locks to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's just say assuming o' coral's back, because I
think that makes it easier. I think, you know, starting
five with Struce is locked in. I think after that
it's Karros Lavert Isaac Ocorol. I'd assume George.
Speaker 2: Nianing over Dean Wade, and then nine to ten would
be Dean Wade and Ty Jerome would be my guess.
Speaker 1: Uh, That's how I had sam Merril penciled in for
the ten spot. But I'm just like a sam Merril
fanatic of I it's.
Speaker 2: Very possible that I'm wrong on that. It's very possible
I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: I mean, Kenny Atkinson teams do like to shoot threes,
so Sam mal might come in and just get on heaters.
What is this team's this will be I'm sure it'll
be matchup dependent, and but you do get into interesting
like the two bigs of it all question, if we
fast forward to the end of the season, what do
you think ends up being their most used crunch time lineup.
Speaker 2: I think it's the starting five.
Speaker 3: Still, they have not played a lot of minutes together
in the clutch like that. That's one thing, you know
that has been talked about, But their minutes have actually
been good when they're in the clutch together. I just
think this might be cheating a little bit too. I
think it's more interesting how they close, you know, when
they're down, Like if you know it's a five point
game and they're trailing the Boston Celtics or something like that,
where do they go in those situations? Because I think
for the majority of the season they're probably going to
be leading in the fourth quarter. I think that this
is a team that's going to be in the mid
fifties in terms of wins, and that just means like
you're going to be closing out a lot of teams.
And I think when you're closing out teams and you
have the lead, you're gonna want Moblean.
Speaker 2: Allen out there. You're gonna want Garland, you wanna want Mitchell,
You're gonna want Strews.
Speaker 1: Is there a weird, offbeat, unpredictable lineup that you would
like to see them roll out this season?
Speaker 3: I you know, this is going back to Jalen Tyson.
I'd like to see a little Jalen Tyson at before.
I don't care which pairing it's with. I don't care
if it's you know, I still think if you're trying
to maximize this roster, I do think when you're staggering,
you're still going to want Garland and Moley together. I
think they have the best chemistry together. We saw them
in a game, you know, a playoff game against Boston
without Donald, without Jared, they still almost beat Boston in
Game four. It came down to the wire. Boston has
thirty more free throws and still barely won. Like that
pairing still rocks. They're really good together. Even in you
know a limited state. I still want to see them together.
I still want to see Donovan and jarreted together because
I think Jared's the better screen setter, and you know,
he fits Donovan's skill set better than Mobley does. I
just want Tyson out there. I want I want him
out there. I want to see him, you know, whether
it's with like a Sam Merrill and a Max Druce
just to get ultimate shooting and let him kind of
make decisions with space and a big man to playoff of.
I just want to see what the rookie can do,
which again ties into like if it hits, that makes
a huge difference, right, Like that addresses one of the
biggest needs that this team has, you know, from a
contending macro standpoint. So any opportunity to kind of let
him shine, I think would be the funky lineup I
want to see.
Speaker 1: And you might have sold me on him to the
point where the lineup I was trying to figure out
is I want Mobley at the five, but I want
no bones about like, oh that he will we will
run the offense a good share of the time through him,
so I had I was looking for a fifth.
Speaker 2: Darlin Meryl Strus Tyson Mobley, let's go.
Speaker 1: I want I want none of Mitchell or Garland on
during those minutes. I'm not leaving anything up. Okay, Okay,
give me.
Speaker 2: Ti Jerome Meryll Struce, Tyson.
Speaker 1: Mobley done that book it. I'd love to see that.
Speaker 2: I'm into it. I'm into it.
Speaker 1: As we record this, which is being recorded on September
the fourth, They're over Under is set at forty eight
point five. Are you taking the over.
Speaker 3: The Ham or the over Ham or the over They
were at that line with everything going wrong last season.
Speaker 2: I think they are very easy over.
Speaker 1: I was actually, we haven't done our over unders yet,
like Brent and I. I was surprised that it ended
up kind of here, But I guess that might say
more about just the state of the East at the
top where if they're taking in like jumps from Indiana
or Orlando on top of Philly, New York. Boston of
course is there. But I was surprised, like I thought
this one was going to be at least forty nine
obviously not a huge gap, but I thought it was
gonna be like fifty ish around there. Where do you
see them? Sort of so there's Boston obviously, but how
do you see them stacking up with the other teams
that are mentioned in that conversation of who's the second
best team in the East? Is there between Milwaukee, Philly
and New York specifically? And if you want to throw Orlando, Indiana, Miami,
and there's like which are those teams either fascinate you
the most? Do you find the most difficult matchup for
the Caves however you want to go with it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think the second tier in the
East is like New York, Cleveland, Philly, Milwaukee in some order.
I go back and forth between Nix and Calves. The
interesting thing about the Knicks is they're very similar to
the Caves, which is, you know, the conversation of how
do you win without a consensus top ten player? I
think it's the same kind of team building questions. I
think it'll be really interesting to see how I think
Julius Randall's really going to matter to them because.
Speaker 1: Oh, I I'm sorry, I'm just he matters more to
them now because they decided to cash in all, basically
all of their trade chips on someone who really shouldn't
even be the number two best shot creator on a team.
Speaker 3: Michail Bridges and Ogianna and Obi are two of the
worst isolation players in the league that don't provide much playmaking.
Mitchell Robinson's not providing playmaking, so Julius Randall and Jalen
Brunson are going to be shill during that load. Obviously,
you know you can sub Dante Devencenza win, but we
saw that, like he's not as effective as a low
minute player as he is when he was like playing
forty two minutes per game, Like he kind of found
his rhythm there. I'm interested to see how that dynamic goes.
I have the Knicks still over Philly and Milwaukee. I'm
going to need to see it.
Speaker 2: With Milwaukee, I mentioned before that you know they were
below five hundred team with Doc, I think they're better
than that.
Speaker 3: But like, I just need to see them stay healthy.
I need to see it click. I need to see
how old brook Lopez is, what Middleton's ankles look like like.
Speaker 2: I just I don't love it.
Speaker 1: I think I'm fine with way brook Lopez played last year,
not too worried about him, but it's the hell thing
with them. But I also do think that Milwaukee and
Cleveland both I don't know if it's just because of
the gravitas of look at all these moves that Philly
and New York made, they're just mentioned like, oh, they're
going to be competing for second best in the East.
I think both Cleveland Milwaukee deserved more consideration there and
I would, honestly, if to me Milwaukee was healthy, I
would probably pick Milwaukee as the second best team.
Speaker 3: And I can say it man like so often, you know,
NBA history comes down to who's the best player in
a series, and Giannis is still probably the best player
in the East. Philly top three is great, but there
are questions you know about and being and Paul George
of can they get healthy or stay healthy by the playoffs?
Speaker 2: Can they play well in the playoffs? The rest of
that roster, man, like that supporting cast is rough. We'll
see if it kind of shakes.
Speaker 3: Out, but like that's a lot of pressure on that
top three.
Speaker 1: They they have a not I think they have a
nice top seven to eight. But you do get into
just like you're asking Caleb Martin Endel, Paul George Ran
how to play a lot of four And then it's like,
is Yabusele you're gonna actually get minutes for this team
as of now, they're gonna make a move. They have
the picks, they have some tradable contracts.
Speaker 3: So I just like, if Caleb Martin's your fifth best player,
how good are you?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: That's that's the thing I keep running into, like he
would if you like just dropped him on the casts.
Speaker 2: He's eight. No, he's behind Struce. He's behind Struce, he's
behind the vert.
Speaker 1: I might still take him over cars Lavert.
Speaker 2: As I win.
Speaker 3: I don't think he didn't have that great of a
season last year, so maybe I'm over indexing on that, but.
Speaker 1: He was banged up, and I value he's he's to me,
he's more malleable at both ends of the floor when
you look at positionally defensively and then it's sort of
more of a connector rather than a driver of things
on offense. But last year was not good for him.
I don't remember what he shot from three, but it
wasn't super efficient, but I think he would be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me look at it. Okay, it was thirty
five percent, so it was better than I thought. Yeah,
I can see the argument anyways, Yeah, six or seven,
so yeah, it's not that far different.
Speaker 1: I mean it's even be health thing for me, for
all the people that are harping on Milwaukee's health, and
it's like we've watched Joelle and b now never get
to the postseason, like even a semblance of healthy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean the East, like the top four or five
in the East is going to be super fascinating to
watch unfold last year. And I do think I said
this last year to you. If you told me the
Cavs were in the NBA Finals last year, I wouldn't
beat ny I don't I'm not going to predict it,
but I wouldn't bet Nye at it.
Speaker 3: I'm at that point this year. I think they needed
the experience of the last two seasons. They they've kind
of met our preseason predictions all on the podcast, Like
you know two years ago when when people were saying,
you know, even after the Mitchell trade, like you listen
to low posts and it's, well, you know, they're behind Toronto,
they're behind Atlanta. Atlanta made a conference finals like they
had them as like the seven eight seed. I think
that sometimes gets forgotten about it, and then you know
they were.
Speaker 1: I don't even remember that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, proving I'm Petty.
Speaker 3: I remember everything they you know, like they worked their
way up to to be the kind of that home
court team and everything went wrong last year and they
still got home court. Like I think the experience, everything
they went through, the fact that you know, even in
the depleted state where Mitchell's knees busted, Mobile's playing through
a high ankle spring, Garland's backs messed up, and He's
still coming back from the jaw and Jared Allen's out
with a bruised rib, like, they still gave Boston the
toughest series, like the that was still the closest Boston
got to going six games with a team that to
me means something. I do think that the supporting cast
is going to be better. I think Garris Garland's going
to be a whole lot better. I think Evan Mobley
is going to take a step forward, and hopefully Donovan
Mitchell's healthy come playoffs, because you know, I was super
impressed with his ability to do what he did in
the playoffs while being injured, but he was physically limited
and man like that was a shell of him physically.
So I do think I might only put it like
a five percent chance that they can make the NBA Finals.
But I do think that they are a team that
could beat anyone in the East. It's just going to
come down to can they win three times? That that's
going to be the hard thing.
Speaker 1: Justin, is there anything about this team? Anyone else on
this team we didn't discuss that you would like to
touch upon before I let Uskidado.
Speaker 3: I mean we went deep on Jail and Tyson. I mean,
just you know, I would encourage people to watch Summer
League highlights because those obviously really matter. Summer League really
really matters. That we've never seen someone play well there
and not play well in the NBA.
Speaker 1: Clearly the biggest draft bust of all time matter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they take it, take it incredibly seriously.
Speaker 3: I did, like, so, we don't watch college like Carter
and I don't watch college. So we had Maxwell Baumgardner
on right before the draft, and it was funny that
he said, like before then he's like, my favorite fit
for the Cavs is Jalen Tyson, and then boom, Jalen Tyson.
Speaker 2: Like it was great that it worked out that way.
Speaker 3: My big thing, and I think one of the takeaways
from Boston's championship is I do think the NBA is moving,
especially in this kind of parody driven league, to you
need to have guys that can do a lot of things.
You need guys that can create a lot of positions.
I think Kenny Atkinson's offense is catered towards that, and
I hope that the Caves are taking a step towards
that direction because I think in the past it was
too clearly defined who was a play initiator and who
was a play finisher, and that made them predictable in
the playoffs. I think they have the personnel. I think
they have the coaching staff in place, and I think
the failures of the last two years in the playoffs
have kind of highlighted that need enough that they're able
to take those proper steps forward. Because if they are
able to do that where it's not always on Darius
and it's not always on Donovan to create absolutely everything,
I do think that this roster has the talent to
go out there and have their offense translate to the playoffs.
Speaker 1: Justin this was fantastic, educational, instructive, and sightful the whole nine.
As always, can you just very quickly tell our listeners
where they can find you and all the fantastic audio
content that you're just pumping out there.
Speaker 3: Wherever you found this podcast, you can find the Chase down.
We are on the Cavs YouTube channel. We do go
live once a week in the off season, twice a
week in during season. You know, support us, leave us ratings, reviews,
all that good stuff, just like you do with Hardwood Knocks.
If you're not doing that and you listen to these podcasts,
what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Man Like?
Speaker 3: It's the easiest thing in the world. You can also
find me on Twitter. I'm not on there super frequently,
but at Kavvanna you can find me.
Speaker 1: There the Twitter handle that I was mispronouncing until last year.
So for basically seven years it was just have the
nada is what I would call it.
Speaker 2: It looks way better in writing than it does out lot.
Speaker 1: That's fine, Well, thanks so much. As you know right now,
I will be festering you again down the line, so.
Speaker 2: I will talk to you too. Man. You better I
will pick it very personally. If you don't