WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.919 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. 2 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:11.759 This week, on our panel, we have Steve Edwards. 3 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:13.880 You know, from a cold and rainy Portland, which is 4 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:15.199 typical for this time of year. 5 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:19.640 A j O'Neil yo ya yo, coming at you live 6 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:23.800 from a beautiful day in the shed. 7 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:28.000 I thought it was the purple room. 8 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:30.120 It changes every time, you know that. 9 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:31.719 No, it doesn't. It's always purple. 10 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:35.600 Well yeah, I mean it's obviously it's purple for those 11 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:36.399 that can see. 12 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:43.520 Right. Yeah, he won't tell us. 13 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.359 Where he is, but folks just look at the counting 14 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:48.679 records that he Healan's house. I'm Charles Maxwood from Top 15 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:53.320 End Devs and we have a special guest this week, 16 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:55.600 and that's Corey Brown. Corey, do you want to say 17 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.920 hello and let people know who you are and kind 18 00:00:58.920 --> 00:00:59.960 of what your background is? 19 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:04.799 Sure? Hi, Corey Brown, I'm coming at you from Saint 20 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:07.719 George currently, not where I regularly live. That's where I 21 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:08.480 am right now. 22 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:10.719 It's supposed to be warm down there. 23 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:13.560 It's warmer than where I Yeah, it's warmer than up north, 24 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:15.280 that's for sure, which is why we're here. 25 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:17.319 I have a friend that lives down there. I'm always 26 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:17.879 so jealous. 27 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:19.359 It's it's love. 28 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:21.359 Yeah. 29 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:25.400 I I am a well currently I'm architect at a 30 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:29.239 place called Omni. We are a GPM company, JP Morgan Company, 31 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.439 and I've been in the industry for about fifteen years. 32 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:38.200 I enjoy speaking and sometimes on occasion, arguing with people 33 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:39.519 about childscript stuff. 34 00:01:41.319 --> 00:01:43.799 Yeah, you picked a fight with our friend Dan and 35 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.760 then he ran away. 36 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:50.680 That's right. Well it was either that or he had 37 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:51.599 something else going on. 38 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:55.040 But you know, it reminded me of the argument and 39 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.959 a Family Guy where the rich guy rolls up and 40 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.200 he says, oh, Reginald, I disagree and peels off those 41 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:03.599 kind of the extent of the argument. 42 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:05.480 Ouch. 43 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.199 Yeah. Yeah. 44 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:13.280 So anyway, so yeah, from what I am gathering, and 45 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:15.599 it looks like AJ was part of the conversation on 46 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:18.960 Twitter as well, and so you all can tell me 47 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:19.919 where I get this wrong. 48 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:21.439 But there was a conversation. 49 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:26.319 AJ was suggesting maybe we do an episode on some 50 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:31.719 of the less understood dom APIs, and then Dan asked 51 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:36.080 the question, do React developers really need to understand the 52 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:38.560 dom APIs because React does a lot of these things 53 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:43.759 for you, and you said, yeah, they do, and he 54 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:47.039 kind of disagreed and So the idea was you could 55 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:53.120 come on and that conversation with you, and then he 56 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:55.360 ran away because you're so intimidating. 57 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.080 I think it's weird, but it's. 58 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.039 Got to be. It's very a little bit of gray 59 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.240 right there. Really, Oh, you rus really know what he's 60 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:01.719 talking about. 61 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:05.400 That's right. You've got a real gray beard in the house, folks. 62 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:11.319 So anyway, let me know if I missed anything important there, 63 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:14.639 and then if you or AJ want to chime in 64 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:16.560 and give us a little more context. 65 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:18.719 We get going on talking about this because I think 66 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.479 it'll be interesting. Yeah. 67 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:23.199 I think that's the sum of it. And had I 68 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:26.759 known that you could get on this podcast just with 69 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:29.919 a simple I don't think that's quite right comment, that 70 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:31.280 would have done it a long time ago. 71 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:39.719 But no, it's good, all right. So yeah, so is 72 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:42.120 there anything more to it? Did miss anything? 73 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:43.800 No? 74 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:45.639 I think I think that is the That was the 75 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:49.560 conversation we had on Twitter. But you know, should I 76 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:52.159 guess the premise of the argument is should dude react? 77 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.520 Developers need really need to understand the dom is is 78 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:59.319 react sufficient for your needs? I think there's there's a 79 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:06.840 bigger question under that. More like, given the rise and 80 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:12.719 the universality essentially a frameworks out there. The NILA jobscript 81 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:17.000 crowd has grown increasingly smaller. So given that you really 82 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:19.160 a lot of people make the argument you really can't 83 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:22.600 do jobscript work anymore without working inside of a framework. Therefore, 84 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:26.120 do you need to know the platform upon which that 85 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:30.199 framework is built or those frameworks sufficient to accomplish everything 86 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:32.600 you need? Do you want to live in the abstraction 87 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:34.319 or do you need to be able to dive down 88 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.279 into the metal Sometimes, at least that's the way I 89 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:40.800 am thinking about the problem. 90 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:47.000 The question, and your answer, it seems is obviously, yeah, 91 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:49.399 sometimes you need to get into the metal. So do 92 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:52.639 you have examples or do you have an argument for that? 93 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:53.519 Yeah? 94 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:55.800 Actually I had. It was interesting just a couple of 95 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.720 days after that conversation, which made it sound like it 96 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:02.079 was a it was a monumental thing. It was kind 97 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.879 of a passing thing. But with that said, just a 98 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:08.000 couple of days later, I was working on a problem 99 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:16.680 and just it was attaching a pop over a drop 100 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:22.040 down and kind of anchoring it to a to an element, 101 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.879 and I was refactoring something that'd done this, and the 102 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:32.160 original the old version was using just pure react as 103 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:33.879 much as React as they could, so using all the 104 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:35.959 hooks and all that stuff. And even then you have 105 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.360 to you have to do some some event listening. Even 106 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:41.360 when you're trying to go completely into React, you have 107 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:43.040 to do event listening, so you ad event listener on 108 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:47.920 scroll and and that sort of stuff. But in the refactor, 109 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.279 I just ripped all of that stuff out and I 110 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:54.600 did a very simple event listener on scroll and an 111 00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:01.680 event listener on on resize and use the same handler 112 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:06.279 for both. And it was not The previous version had 113 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:08.439 a lot of bugs. It would not track well, it 114 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.319 would drift, and when things things would get out of whack. 115 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.720 Ripping all of that framework stuff out and dropping just 116 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:20.199 down into the very simple I mean scroll eventlisteners and 117 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.199 reset event listeners are not like new domain pies. They're 118 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:28.399 super they've been around forever. But just leaning on those 119 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:31.720 like fixed all of the bugs that had with it. 120 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.800 It is now buttery smooth. And it was kind of 121 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:40.399 a lesson that these frameworks they're designed to do something 122 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:44.079 that like a specific thing, and when you're doing what 123 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:45.839 those things are designed to do, they work really well 124 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.800 and you should lean into them, but they they aren't 125 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:54.519 designed to do everything, and when you try to force 126 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.800 that square peg into that round hole. For everything you 127 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:00.879 try to do and you are not aware of your 128 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.959 disregard the platform upon which it's built, which is designed 129 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:08.959 to do a slightly different thing, you can you over complicated. Actually, 130 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:12.319 I was just reading this morning. I was rereading out 131 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:16.199 of the tar Pit that that old article I can't 132 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:19.920 remember the author's names. That's really about complexity, about the 133 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:24.160 difference between necessary complexity and unnecessary complexity, and depending what 134 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:25.879 you're trying to do with the frameworks, can introduce a lot 135 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:30.879 of unnecessary complexity. And that's what I found. That's what 136 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.560 I happened then was fifteen years. 137 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:35.480 You know, check I have to add the obligatory joke 138 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:39.439 in here that this seems like a really overreaction. 139 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:41.160 Oh to this question. 140 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:47.560 Wow, there it is, But you know, I mean, so Corey, 141 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.800 My background is I started out with PHP straight PHP World, 142 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:53.680 and I got into droupil for a while and then 143 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:57.399 Angular and View. I have never played with React myself, 144 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.360 but to me, I'm like, my answer to this question 145 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:08.199 is duh, yes, you need to know both. I'm just like, yeah, 146 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:11.439 how would you not need to know the underlying basics? 147 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:15.399 Of any given language. There's no way that any framework 148 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.720 I think, is going to be able to do everything 149 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.439 that the underlying platform can do. And you know, I 150 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.079 listened to as woke as he is. I still listen 151 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:29.680 to Chrispherd Nandy quite a bit, and you know, I 152 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:31.800 get his newsletter. He makes a lot of great points. 153 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:33.799 You know, you listen to other podcasts and people talk 154 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.279 about using the platform. You know, use the platform, use 155 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.879 the dom APIs, use what's already there, and even in 156 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:46.919 view and uh and uh Lara Bell and Drupel. You know, 157 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:49.039 there's a lot of helper functions. There's a lot of 158 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.279 things that will do stuff. But time and time again, 159 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:54.559 you just got to get down to the basics and 160 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:57.440 use some of the basic tools. I mean, a framework's 161 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:00.200 not going to do everything, and why should it, you know. 162 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.919 Yeah, yeah, and more than that, a few more things. 163 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:05.840 I add a little bit of color to that. So 164 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:09.559 the original the new one uses the new popover API. 165 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:11.480 I don't know if any of you guys know of 166 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.639 it or used it. It's fantastic, it's lovely. 167 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:15.440 I keep wanting to play with it. 168 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:17.360 Yeah, I've seen a lot about it, haven't had a 169 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.639 chance to get down and use it yet, because that's 170 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:21.840 a you know, that's one thing that javascripts had to 171 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:23.919 do a lot of anytime of pop up, pubble or 172 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:27.440 stuff with dialogues, modals, whether it's date pickers, you know, 173 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:29.639 you name it, that's always something jobscripts. 174 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:31.440 I saw that was in the spec and I was 175 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.879 just like, oh, my life just got better. 176 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:38.240 But oh it's it's a delight. And ninety percent of 177 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:40.759 the code I was able to eliminate from the pure 178 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:44.279 React version was just state management, which again goes back 179 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:48.120 to the out of the Tarpet article where it identifies 180 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:51.159 this primary source of a necessary complexity of state management. 181 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:54.679 And you can just eliminate all of that. You do 182 00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:56.840 not have to worry about it. And so you have 183 00:09:56.919 --> 00:09:59.600 the scroll handlers and the research handlers. But the thing 184 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.559 that really reduced the complexity of it entirely was the 185 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.039 pop over API, which is not a vailable it's not 186 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:08.480 a React thing, it's a platform thing. 187 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:09.480 Right. 188 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.279 It reminds me very much of I mean, you guys, 189 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:18.200 I'm sure you all remember the the left pad incident. 190 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:23.039 Comes up with eight lines or something like that. Yeah, 191 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:24.120 the Internet. 192 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:26.759 But can you give people context because I'm sure we 193 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:27.399 have listeners. 194 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:31.200 Yeah sure, so I okay, So I love jobscript I 195 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:32.799 love the jobs community. I have been doing it for 196 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:35.960 fifteen years. I have I've learned of the languages, but 197 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.840 I have only ever been professionally paid to write JavaScript. 198 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:44.559 And but one thing that the jobscrip community does, I 199 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:48.960 think poorly or has done poorly is an over reliance 200 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:53.960 on abstractions, overliance on libraries, overliance on on frameworks. 201 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.879 What is not just a JavaScript problem. I'm just gonna 202 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.360 point that out. No, everybody does this. 203 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.279 Well there, Yeah, I think the some do it better 204 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:08.759 than others, but fair but yeah, So what it happened 205 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:11.960 is in this over aliance on on foremeworks, you know, 206 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.919 the hyper hyperrization of don't repeat yourself. We have created 207 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:19.879 libraries so we never have to write the same thing 208 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.559 over and over. Of course, so I'm tangenting a little bit. 209 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:26.080 The libraries end up all the overhead of importing it 210 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:27.519 and do this all their stuff, end up writing more 211 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.440 code sometimes then it would be just to write the thing. 212 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:35.639 In this case, that's exactly so. This library literally pads 213 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.919 the left side of a string, so the beginning of 214 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:41.399 a string with some characters that you give it right. 215 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:44.360 Turns out that there has been for a very long 216 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.320 time a native way to do this in JavaScript, but 217 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:51.519 we designed a lot of people decide yeah, shocker, a 218 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:54.120 lot of people decided, no, no, we're gonna use library because 219 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:56.519 because this is going to be better tested. I don't 220 00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:57.799 really understand the logical. 221 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:03.960 Well, I think that pads start came after left pad 222 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:07.440 it may. I think that pad start was one of 223 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.679 the when they were calling it ECMAScript six where they 224 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.120 were just before they went hogwild crazy, and they were 225 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:19.440 just introducing things that the language actually needed. That was 226 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:22.440 around the time that pad start was introduced, and then 227 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.240 of course that didn't get implemented by browsers until what 228 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:28.399 you know, six years later or whatever, because they prioritized 229 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.000 dumb stuff that we don't need over stuff that we 230 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:31.919 actually do need. 231 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.200 In any case of the time, at the time this happened, 232 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.039 pad start was has art had already been a jobscript 233 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:45.600 for some time. So yeah, if if and this gets 234 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.840 the problem of like transit dependencies and deep dependencies and stuff. 235 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:50.279 A lot of people didn't even know that they had 236 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.679 a dependency on this library. So what happens is this 237 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:58.200 the owner of this library, uh, for reasons I don't recall, 238 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:03.559 and history we'll probably forget, got upset and pulled his 239 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.159 his library and at the time INPM allowed you to 240 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:10.120 do this. He just belieted it, and all of a sudden, 241 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.519 everybody's builds in the entire. 242 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:13.799 Yeah, the internet world. 243 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:16.559 Well everyone said the Internet broke. The Internet never broke 244 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.519 the builds. Everybody's build it would Yeah, well the pre 245 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:25.600 release part of the web break. So nobody's site went down, 246 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.480 but nobody could deliver anything anymore either. For a little while. 247 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:32.320 They could figure this out, and it was it was 248 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:35.679 a huge joke in the whole software community. Oh job ascript. 249 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:38.200 You know, they don't know what they're doing over there, 250 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.519 which is probably something great true, But so anyway, so 251 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:44.600 that's how it all went down. 252 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:47.559 Yep, as I recall. 253 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:51.120 Right, So the point you're making then is if people 254 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:56.679 had been relying on the underlying core API of start 255 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.440 pad instead of using the left pad library read, then 256 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:02.320 their stuff would have just kept on work. 257 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.919 It goes, it goes deeper than that, even because to 258 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.720 to AJ's point, if you it the if you look 259 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.000 at the the if you ever looked at the code 260 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:16.840 for left pad, it was very, very few lines of codes. Yeah, 261 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.200 very simple, very straightforward. Anyone could have wrote this, but 262 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:23.279 we used the library instead. Instead of everyone writing writing 263 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.559 it themselves, writing their own utility library, we used a 264 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:29.039 third party library, which created a dependency on someone else, who, 265 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:35.399 at their own whims could do whatever they wanted our 266 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:40.600 our insistence on like outsourcing our code. This way that 267 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:45.440 the simple code kind of created this problem. Everyone could 268 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:50.720 have written their own left pad and then updated as 269 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:55.440 they felt ready to to pat start when it came 270 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:59.159 into JavaScript. But instead it got very deeply, deeply deeply 271 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:03.759 into these dependencies that nobody even knew was there. We 272 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.080 don't keep up, we don't update our stuff. They didn't, 273 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:08.080 you know, left pad didn't update there to use the 274 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:10.159 native or anything like that. And so we got into 275 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:13.440 the system where there's these blind corners of things that 276 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:15.440 were relying on. We have no idea what we're relying 277 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:18.799 on them, because we've outsourced even the simplest of stuff. 278 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:23.120 I can I clarify something here, because what you're pointing 279 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:26.919 out is not just the people who like in their 280 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:30.799 project said I need left pad right. It was a 281 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:32.919 dependency of a whole bunch of the other library. So 282 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:34.879 even if they were making the kind of decision that 283 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:37.720 you're talking about where they're saying, you know what, something 284 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.559 like left pad, it's simple. It's simple for me to 285 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.240 write my own little library that does it, or you know, 286 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:47.559 if I'm late enough, i can use the native JavaScript 287 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:48.559 API that does it. 288 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.639 But I had other things that. 289 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:55.799 Were solving more complex problems for me that also relied 290 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.360 on left pad. So even if I was making some 291 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:01.879 of these better decisions, I still fell prey to this 292 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.840 because my my other underlying stuff wouldn't build. 293 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:10.600 That's right, because because of a more of a community problem. 294 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:14.919 I guess, uh, we we as a community have kind 295 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.559 of fall into this and so yeah, uh, which which 296 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:23.000 is why I do think that like dependencies come with 297 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.279 a certain amount of cost, it's often very hidden that 298 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:28.879 we don't we don't acknowledge, we don't recognize. I'm not 299 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.360 saying we shouldn't have dependencies, we shouldn't rely on frameworks 300 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.720 or libraries. We definitely should. There are great things that 301 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.759 come with them, But but to do so too often 302 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:39.720 or without acknowledging that there is that there's a cost 303 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:44.519 associated with that I think has bitten us as a 304 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:47.919 community and individually several times, and we still haven't learned 305 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:50.279 the lesson that maybe we should be a little bit 306 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.120 more intentional about the the dependencies that we bring on board. 307 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:58.120 Right, So let let me summarize a little bit because 308 00:16:58.120 --> 00:16:59.480 I have some thoughts here too, but I want to 309 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:01.639 make sure that we've kind of covered what you've already covered. 310 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:06.039 So you've basically pointed out that you can use the 311 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.119 dom APIs to simplify the path that your code takes 312 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.559 and get more reliable results. 313 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:14.319 You've pointed out that. 314 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.799 Depending on somebody else's code can wind up causing you 315 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:21.799 issues if they change things in a way that you 316 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:28.599 don't expect, including having the library go away. One thing 317 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:30.440 that I've picked up on some of this, right, So 318 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.759 I've I've learned not not I guess at the level 319 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:36.680 where I was getting paid to do it, you know, 320 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:40.880 I've learned angular, I've learned view, I've learned react, mostly 321 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.400 because I was doing the podcast and I wanted to 322 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.119 sound like I knew what I was talking about, because 323 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:47.920 I at least kind of knew what I was talking about, 324 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:52.880 and in those cases that I as I was picking 325 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.119 things up, and also with with my history with like 326 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.680 Ruby on rails or some of the other you know 327 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.200 systems or frameworks that I've used a lot of time. 328 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:02.440 When you're learning them, they give you a way of 329 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.880 doing things, and so you kind of do things the 330 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:07.920 React way for a lack of a better way of 331 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:11.119 doing it, right, And as you build those apps, it's 332 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.160 often appropriate for you just to use those and not 333 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.279 think too deeply about, Hey, is there a simpler way 334 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.000 to do this or is there a better way to 335 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.759 do this? And so there's a lot of value in 336 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:28.039 kind of doing the accepted happy pathway that the framework 337 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:33.480 gives you, right. And I think this is where Dan 338 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.079 is saying, you know, for a lot of developers, if 339 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.920 they never learn deeply learn a lot of these dominpis, 340 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:43.799 they're gonna be fine. They're gonna be able to write 341 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.759 code that works. It's you're gonna be able to deliver 342 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:47.880 working features. 343 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:53.599 Is this just I mean, is that wrong? 344 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:57.400 Or is there a certain point you get to where 345 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.079 all of a sudden it's becomes really really valuable to 346 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.960 know these APIs Or is there some other X factor 347 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.240 that you know about that I'm not thinking of that 348 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.279 makes the difference right that It's like it's like Okay, 349 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.680 you're totally good using the react way until you have 350 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.759 to do this or until this changes, or until your 351 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:18.400 code is a certain size or whatever. 352 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:20.359 I think. 353 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.359 I think people in situation. Life is complicated, so there's 354 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:29.319 no there's no one answer here. But obviously you can 355 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:36.319 you can be productive in straight react or straight view 356 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.960 or straight angular, whatever it is. You can get some 357 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:43.240 stuff done, particularly if you're kind of a junior engineer. 358 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:46.559 But good get paid, right. 359 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:51.480 Right, exactly right. There's a there's an element of practicality there, immediacy, 360 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.960 immediate practicality. But I'm reminded of my actually of my 361 00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:01.799 calculus classes in college. CALC one we spent an entire 362 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:07.240 semester going over how how to do by hand like 363 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:12.759 derivatives and summations and all this stuff. And it was yeah, yeah, yeah, 364 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:13.400 it was so hard. 365 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:15.119 I'll get my mom on the show. She teaches this 366 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:15.920 at the high school. 367 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:18.279 This is giving me nightmares. 368 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.160 But then I had I had the same teacher for 369 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.000 first in CALC one, Cup two, and the second semester 370 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.559 we went into CALC two. On day one, he said, okay, 371 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.960 so last semester we learned all this stuff. Now I'm 372 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:35.559 going to show you how to do that real fast, 373 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:38.720 and in five minutes he taught the entirety of CALC 374 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.880 one with some simple like do this, you know, move 375 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:45.400 this down here and do this multip and that's it, 376 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.920 and everyone grown. And he just got a kick out 377 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:50.400 doing that every year. You could tell because he taught 378 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:53.839 the entirety of CALC one in five minutes in CALC two. 379 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:57.359 But then he pointed out, like why did I why 380 00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:59.039 did we go through all this stuff? It's important to 381 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:02.759 understand why and how we got to this point because 382 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:04.279 I can just show it to you do this and 383 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.559 it works, but you don't know why it works. But 384 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.799 now you do. You had calkawan, you know why it works. 385 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:11.839 You have you can now have inferences and understandings that 386 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.079 you wouldn't have had otherwise. And this is exactly the 387 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:16.279 same thing when you when you jump into a framework 388 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:19.279 and you learn the frameworkisms, the reactisms or the anbulisms, 389 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.640 whatever it is, you can be productive. You know, the 390 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.880 incantations to make to produce something, but that's what they are. 391 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:30.920 They're incantations. If you know the platform, if you begin 392 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:33.759 to understand how is this thing built, what is it 393 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:38.039 doing under the hood, it ceases to become incantations and 394 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.759 it starts to become recipes and you say, oh, okay, cool, 395 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.119 that's a cool bread recipe. I'm going to do this 396 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.160 thing and create like an orange loaf or a sour 397 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:51.160 dough or whatever it is. Whereas if you're just heads 398 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:54.440 down this, you don't exactly know how bread is produced 399 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.359 or how your application is, how it functions under the hood. 400 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:00.759 It's it's you're less useful than you could be. 401 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:03.640