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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm

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Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 5: We're joined today by Maureen Boyle, author of Shallow Graves,

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The Hunt for the New Bedford Highway serial Killer.

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Speaker 3: Maureen, thank you for joining us today, and thank you

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very much for having me on the show. I greatly

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appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Start by telling us a little bit about how you

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got your start in journalism.

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Speaker 3: I started in journalism actually in high school, working a

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school paper, and I went to college for journalism. Throughout

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my college career, I interned at the local newspaper, Deally

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Newspaper in Bridgeport, Connecticut, where I'm originally from, and then

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after graduation, I started working at different newspapers throughout New England.

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I like to say, though I started my career in journalism,

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actually started in the second grade when a nun was

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teaching us how to do quotation marks, and I have

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this distinct memory of looking up at her and thinking

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in my head, I really need to know this. And

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after that.

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Speaker 6: Career was born, I noticed in the notes to your

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book you're very clear on something, which is if something

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is quoted directly, those, as you point out, are from

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conversations you participated in directly, or court docs or other

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things where you know, for certain so and so said

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exactly these words.

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Speaker 2: And then in other situations where you're talking about things

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where you weren't in the room, which obviously is some

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at the time, then it's no quotes. And you're very

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clear about when you have precise quotations and when you

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have other things that are probably paraphrased.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I think that's something that you really have

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to be very accurate about for the reader, because you're

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not there for all of it. I was very lucky

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with the New Bedford Highway serial killing case because I

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was a reporter for the New Bedford Standard Times in

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Massachusetts at that time, and I was covering the case,

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so I could draw on what was going on, what

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I remembered, what I saw, and my own stories that

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I wrote back then, so I preserved those quotes, so

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that is what was said, So that served is some

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of the notes for the book, as well as some

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of the additional interviews that I did with people.

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Speaker 5: Were you the only reporter who was covering that case

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or was it something that just about everybody on staff

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was covering at some point or another.

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Speaker 3: Later on, obviously I could not cover every single angle

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of it because the story really got too big. We

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had the New York Times there, There was I believe

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someone from the Washington Post may have been there, all

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of the Boston stations, all of the Boston newspapers, the

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Providence stations, the Providence newspaper, the Fall River Paper. So

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it was a what someone might call a real cluster

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at that point with all of the media there. As

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the story progressed in the very beginning, though primarily it

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was me and this son's very odd, but it also

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tells you something about the staffing of local newspapers. At

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one point early on, it was me and a photographer

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from the Providence Journal, because the photographer for the Journal

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lived in the New Bedford area, so when anything happened,

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he's able to get there quickly, while the reporters were

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in Rhode Island and at the Standard Times at that point,

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our photographers were tied up on other assignments, and we

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did have a running joke that between the two of

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us we worked for two different papers, but were between

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the two of us we had the story covered in

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print and photo. But then as the months progressed, more

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and more reporters came on the scene.

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Speaker 2: My family is from Lowell, Massachusetts, and I remember when

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this story was happening, which is nineteen eighty eight, how

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much press there was, and there was a tremendous amount

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of coverage. I was probably reading some of your stuff.

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Would you get picked up then and carried in other

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papers as well?

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Speaker 3: It would have been the Associated Press would have picked

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up the stories and carried them.

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Speaker 2: Now, were you as always a crime reporter?

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Speaker 3: When I started in New Bedford. I was working in

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a town, then very quickly became their police reporter. Then

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for a brief period of time, I was general assignment.

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Actually when this case broke, I was general assignment covering

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of all things politics, which I have to say is

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pretty boring. It really is. But because I was still

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a general assignment, I just moved right into this case.

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Speaker 5: There are probably going to be some of our listeners

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who have not heard of the New Bedford Highway serial killer.

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Until Bill put your book on my radar, I had

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not heard of it. Can you take a couple of minutes,

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while we're still at the top of the conversation and

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just give us a quick rundown for anybody who's not familiar.

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What is the New Bedford Highway serial killing case all about?

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Speaker 3: Well, it started in March April of nineteen eighty eight.

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That was when some the women began and disappearing. Between

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March and April and September of nineteen eighty eight, eleven

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women went missing from New Bedford. Nine of them were

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eventually found dead near or along local highways, the highways

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that circled New Bedford. None of the women were found

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inside New Bedford proper. Two of the eleven women are

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still missing. People have a tendency even around here, thinking

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that the killer was active for a much longer period

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of time because the bodies weren't found until all of

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the bodies weren't found until spring of eighty nine. Then

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there was a lengthy investigation and a grand jury investigation

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as the district attorney was trying to get some potential

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witness testimony on the record before a grand jury. This

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was a very tight killing spray. So you've got just

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from roughly March April until September of eighty eight, and

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two of the women are still missing. They are presumed dead.

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So you had eleven missing, nine found. All of the women.

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The link between all of the women, in addition to

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most of them had somewhere height and weight where they

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were all addicted to drugs. That was the link between

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all of them. Some of them did have criminal records

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for prostitution, but not all of them.

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Speaker 2: Although the thread of sex work is one of the

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through lines. In other words, not that all eleven women

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were involved in sex work, but a fair number of

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the victims were.

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Speaker 3: Yes. But we have to keep in mind, especially in

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New Bedford. Those that are working, the women that were

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working in the street, they were there because of their addiction.

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That is the only reason why there was nothing romantic

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about it. There is this image when people used term

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sex work. People have this image of women coming in

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and out of hotels, wearing high heels and dressed nicely

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and this sort of thing. The women that were on

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the street in nineteen eighty Bedford were there only because

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of their addiction. Once they got into recovery, they were

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not there at all. Every penny that they made went

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right to buying drugs.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there was one of the women that I was

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reading about as I was going through and tracking all

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of the different victims, and it said that she was

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only doing this to feed her habit, that she was married,

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that her husband didn't even realize that she was doing this,

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and the only reason that she was doing it at

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all was because the amount of money she could charge

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for such sex work was related to the amount of

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money it costs to get the drug that she wanted,

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and that, for some reason or another, it did not

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occur to me. I have the same stereotype I think

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in my head that a lot of people do. That's

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put there by Hollywood, Like you just said, high heels, hotels.

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It didn't occur to me that might be a reason

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someone might turn to sex work. So I really enjoyed

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that you were able to put that out there, and

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that you were able to like be very compassionate towards

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these women, because it's really obvious that they didn't want

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to be having to feed this habit that way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the women that did eventually wind up on

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the street, the reason they head prior to that. Not

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necessarily all of these women, but a lot of the

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women who were who warmed up on the street, their

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previous criminal records were things like bad checks, shoplifting, things

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like that, and you could see a progression in their crimes,

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most more like crimes against themselves, not against other people,

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as their habits got worse.

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Speaker 2: And then let's talk about New Bedford for a second.

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For our listeners who are around the country and even

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around the world who have never been to New Bedford, Massachusetts,

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tell us a little bit about what New Bedford is

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like or was in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 3: New Bedford is a lovely, lovely city. I cannot say

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enough good things about it. It's a waterfront community, the

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country's largest fishing pool, very close knit families, a close

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knit community, a lot of first second, third generation immigrants, multicultural,

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just a nice place. When I lived there, I absolutely

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loved living there. Great restaurants, great people, good people. Yes,

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it has crime, but all cities have crime. Compared to

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other cities, I would say the crime is fairly low.

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When you live in a city generally, and you're former city,

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people have a tendency to be hypercritical of their own hometown.

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But I have seen other cities that are very harsh

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and New Bedford does not have that harshness to it.

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In nineteen eighty eight, it was a bit isolated because

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it's so far from Boston. One politician in I believe

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it was nineteen eighty four had called New Bedford the

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end of the universe, Southeastern Massachusetts the end of the universe,

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a view from the politicians in Boston because it was

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so far away. It was it's only like an hour

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and a half because most of that is because of traffic,

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maybe two hours. So the city was always a bit isolated,

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and during that period of time, New Bedford was a

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bit isolated. It was more aligned with Providence and the

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Cape a very large number of people were employed in

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the fishing industry. In the trades, there had at one

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point been a very thriving textile industry, but that of

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course faded very quickly in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 5: Is there any particular reason why the drug trade seemed

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to be thriving so much in New Bedford? It sounds

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the drugs and the addiction were really the biggest part

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of the problem here.

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Speaker 3: Why might that be.

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Speaker 5: Did it have anything to do with drug running coming

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in from fishing boats? What was contributing to this drug

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epidemic in New Bedford?

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Speaker 3: And that's what I had always wondered about, and had

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asked some of the narcotics, older narcotics guys, and they

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said that they noticed the heroin trade picking up in

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the nineteen sixties nineteen seventies when they were seeing some

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programs that had started in the city where people from

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New York were coming into the city. For whatever reason,

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someone decided that was the place to be. Because I

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could never quite and we're talking about heroin, I could

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not understand why you didn't have the same serious heroin

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problem in Fall River, that is a city that's mostly

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known for an axe murderer as Lizzie Morton, and it

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seemed that the heroin when it was coming in by car,

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they were driving right through Fall River and coming into

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New Bedford, and that just seemed a bit odd, but

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that's how it was. Someone had I did that was

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the place for the heroin trade and then to move

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out from there. Marijuana during the nineteen eighties was coming

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in by boat through some of the fishing boats. Large

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bales of the marijuana were coming in, But the main

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problem drug during that period of time was heroin.

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Speaker 5: What ultimately made you decide it's time to write a

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book about this case, because as we all know, writing

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a book is a massive undertaking. You're probably better equipped

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for it than most people because you had done all

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of this writing and reporting on the case. But what

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finally tipped you over to I think it's time to

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do the book of record on the case.

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Speaker 3: If you will. You're never fully equipped to do a

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book forever. I think it's going to be hard, and

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then it is even harder than you ever thought. And

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I'm glad I didn't know how hard it was going

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to be. I had always wanted in a planned to

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write a book on the case. But I kept on

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waiting for it to be solved, right because everyone wants

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everything story to be tied up in a neat package.

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That's what readers want. I kept on waiting for it

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and waiting for it and waiting for it because I

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was convinced, of course, this case is going to be solved.

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No one can get away with these many murders, especially

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not in a place like New Bedford, where people cannot

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keep secrets. They really can't. And because everyone's married to

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someone's cousin, or they've gone to high school with someone,

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or they're talking in bars, people would find out who

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the killer was, and it never happened. So it was

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year after year after year after year, and I was

255
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having some conversations with people. I discovered that number of people,

256
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even in the city, were misremembering what happened. Some people

257
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thought the killer was found, some people thought that he

258
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was convicted. They were forgetting who was the victims. And

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that's one of the reasons why I decided to write

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the book. Also, because it hasn't been solved. I wanted

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to put a spotlight on the case so that more

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people could come forward and say, this is who the

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killer is. Because I am firmly convinced that there is

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someone out there who knows who the killer is. That said,

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what's awsome, very frightening is the number of people that

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I've spoken to since the book came out who have said, Oh,

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I know who the killer is, and it's their brother,

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or their father, or their boyfriend or their ex boyfriend,

269
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or their neighbor. And it really is an eye opener

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that there is a potential of so much evil out

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there that someone would think this person could be the

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killer of eleven women. It was a challenge writing the

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ending to the book because there was no ending, and

274
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then I just took a step back and realized, sometimes

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life isn't me, and life does go on even in

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the wake of just such horror, so that you have

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to how does a community heal? How does a family

278
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go on? That's part of the story.

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Speaker 2: How did people react now the book came out several

280
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years ago in twenty seventeen. How did people react When

281
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the book came out and people had a chance to

282
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go back and revisit the whole case. But as a

283
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result of Shallow Graves coming out.

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Speaker 3: They reacted very well. Both the police, the attorney's office, families. Overall,

285
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a very good reaction. Anyone who was tied to the

286
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case had a very good reaction to it.

287
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Speaker 5: You did a really wonderful job highlighting the dog in

288
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pursuit of this killer from the law enforcement side. Every

289
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single law enforcement agent that came up in the book.

290
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I was like, boy, I would love to meet these

291
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people and have a beer with them.

292
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Speaker 3: They sound terrific. How much access did you have to them?

293
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Speaker 5: Were they all like, absolutely, yes, I will share everything

294
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with you, or was there any resistance on their part

295
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to having the book written.

296
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Speaker 3: And any resistance to having the book written? I will

297
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say that Josie Gonzalz, who was one of the state

298
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police investigators, he was very careful about what information that

299
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he gave me when I interviewed him. He was already retired,

300
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but he is still a state trooper right to the hinge,

301
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and he would have his reports or copies of his

302
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,279
reports in front of him, and he'd be going through

303
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with answering my questions. I said, can I look at

304
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the reports? No?

305
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Speaker 2: No, But.

306
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Speaker 5: He was.

307
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Speaker 3: But some other people were very good at also sharing

308
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some of their old reports.

309
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Speaker 2: Were there ever people that you wanted to talk to

310
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that refused to speak to.

311
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Speaker 3: You one of the suspects family members, and I think

312
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that was it. Most of the people that I wanted

313
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to talk to were very cooperative. Even the priest, who

314
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was one of the last people to live seen one

315
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of the suspects in the case. I did talk with

316
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him and he was very hopeful.

317
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Speaker 5: When you're talking to family members of the victims, it's

318
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very painful and very difficult for them to relive what

319
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is got to be one of the worst emotional shocks

320
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of their life. Did it ultimately feel like a good

321
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experience for you and for them to be able to

322
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talk and work through here's this terrible thing that happened,

323
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and here's how we have lived with.

324
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Speaker 3: It since then.

325
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Speaker 5: This is going to be so painful for them, especially

326
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because it is still unsolved. Do you feel like working

327
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with the victims' families was good for you and did

328
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it bring you some sort of emotional closure with the

329
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whole entire thing.

330
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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say closure, what it was more of a

331
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shared purpose. They knew what we were, what the book

332
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,559
was about. They knew that how I was portraying their

333
00:18:51,599 --> 00:18:54,759
loved ones and the information that I was looking for

334
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to present a whole person, not a caricature that was

335
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trade in some of the media back in eighty eighty

336
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nine and ninety even into ninety one. I was looking

337
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for something deeper. These are families, and these are how

338
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families had to deal with adyption, how they had to

339
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overcome their frustration when they were trying to get their

340
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loved one's help, and the grief that they felt when

341
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it all came down to a killer taking away the

342
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hope that they had for a better wife, for their mother, sister, daughter.

343
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Speaker 2: Where we stand now in twenty twenty five, Maureene, do

344
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you believe that the murder and the disappearance of eleven

345
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,240
women altogether? Do you think those cases are all related

346
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and there's one single killer.

347
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Speaker 3: If it isn't one, it would be two people working

348
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in concert.

349
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Speaker 2: In your mind, not much chance that these are overlapping

350
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cases or anything like that. You're thinking, this is one

351
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or two people who killed this cluster of eleven women

352
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over a fairly short period of time. Time.

353
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Speaker 3: Yes, some people have asked me in the past, could

354
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,960
be a copycat, and the answer to that would be no,

355
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because there was no publicity when the women first went missing.

356
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:15,839
The first two victims that were found there were found

357
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in July of nineteen eighty eight. It involved a woman

358
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who went missing in the spring and a woman who

359
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,799
had gone missing in July. When those two bodies were

360
00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:29,160
found in two different towns along the highways, it didn't

361
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get a lot of press at the time. During that

362
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period of time, other women were going missing or they

363
00:20:35,079 --> 00:20:40,200
reported missing, but no alarms really went off until much

364
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later in the fall of that year. There was only

365
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two bodies that were found early on, so there wasn't

366
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a copycat per se at that point.

367
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Speaker 2: One of the things that you mentioned in the book

368
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was that of the nine victims that were found, they

369
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were all outside the city limits of New Bedford. Is

370
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that really significant? Is someone really trying to drop these

371
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bodies off in a place where the New Bedford Police

372
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Department would not be the investigating agency, or is that

373
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just a coincidence in your opinion.

374
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Speaker 3: That's a very good question, and that is something that

375
00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:21,799
a number of the investigators looked at. That is one

376
00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:24,720
of the theories is it's someone who did not, for

377
00:21:24,759 --> 00:21:28,160
whatever reason, did not want New Bedford to investigate the case.

378
00:21:28,839 --> 00:21:33,119
They just wanted it away from the city. Another theory

379
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,599
is that the person wasn't familiar enough with New Bedford

380
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,799
and felt much more comfortable in the outlying areas. Would

381
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:44,039
be someone who might live in one of the smaller towns.

382
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Even though New Bedford is a city, it's a small

383
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and it's a small city. But if you're from a

384
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much smaller town that may be overwhelmed by even a

385
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city such as New Bedford. So that was one of

386
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,240
the theories of one of the issues that they looked at.

387
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,440
And then it goes to the question was it a cop?

388
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,519
And that is also one of the theories. Was this

389
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,039
say someone involved in law enforcement is responsible for the murders?

390
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,599
Was it a cop or is it someone else involved

391
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,720
in a law enforcement someone who is wearing a uniform,

392
00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:21,839
someone who has a badge. And when you look at

393
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,279
the number of people who have badges who are not

394
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,079
technically cops, there's a lot of them. We've got people

395
00:22:28,079 --> 00:22:31,599
from a sheriff's department as one of the main suspects

396
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,640
in the case early on, as an attorney who was

397
00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:38,880
also a deputy sheriff in the Bristol County Sheriff's Department.

398
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Speaker 2: You're listening to mindover Murder, We'll be right back after

399
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:49,759
this word from our sponsors, we're back here at mindover Murder.

400
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Speaker 5: There was a very interesting little I don't think it's

401
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,519
big enough to be a rabbit hole. We're just going

402
00:22:55,599 --> 00:22:57,599
to call it a little side street, but you went

403
00:22:57,759 --> 00:23:01,359
down at one point and it is a discussion of

404
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,960
snuff films. I do know that we're gonna have listeners

405
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,000
who aren't familiar with the term snuff film. Can you

406
00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:10,839
explain what a snuff film is and how that rumor

407
00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:13,640
of it came up and got involved in the case,

408
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,640
because I can't think of another case outside of like

409
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,920
CSI or something like that, where the term snuff film

410
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,240
even gets brought up.

411
00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:23,759
Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about that. A

412
00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:27,920
snuff film is a film where someone is it's almost

413
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,200
like a porno film of sorts, but the person is murdered.

414
00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:35,759
It is literally there's snuffed out. There were rumors throughout

415
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:39,680
the city around that time that someone is making porno films,

416
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,759
hardcore pornal films. That was one aspect of the investigation,

417
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,759
and then there was rumors that there were snuff films,

418
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,759
and so they're scrambling all all around. One of the

419
00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:56,480
stay Troopers Josie Ganzelves, who is the have to say,

420
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:03,720
he is just a very devout Catholic. So they went

421
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:08,200
to an old video store this is when video was big,

422
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,440
and they went through all they took out a hawk

423
00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:14,400
of their hardcore porn films to see if there was

424
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,119
any homemade snuff films, and poor Josie had to watch

425
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:25,279
all of them. Oh my, and he's watching them, not

426
00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:28,400
of what's going on, to see if he recognizes any

427
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,880
of the faces that are in And nothing came out

428
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,200
of that. However, that rumor persisted, and there was one

429
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,680
woman who made some allegations that there was this videotape

430
00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:43,720
was stolen from one of the suspects homes and they

431
00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:47,559
planted it in a planter, a flower pot. Everyone was

432
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,400
running around in circles trying to find this mysterious videotape

433
00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:57,559
and until a until another member of the state police

434
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,640
was listening to the woman to and realized that they

435
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,480
were not talking about snuff films. What they're really talking

436
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:16,640
about was smut films. Oh, so you're talking about and

437
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:22,039
this is where accents come into play. It's and that's

438
00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:25,480
a rabbit hole. So this woman is talking about snuff films.

439
00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:28,599
And then as they're circling back to who's talking to

440
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,039
who and talking to who, and it is smut rather

441
00:25:32,079 --> 00:25:35,079
than snuff. Oh my gosh.

442
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I got to this scene where he is sitting

443
00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:41,359
there having to watch stacks of porno films after he's

444
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,319
had dinner with his kids and put his kids to bed.

445
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,799
Speaker 3: He's just sitting there like that.

446
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 5: Oh gosh, the things that the agents assigned this case

447
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,519
we're going through. You really just did a wonderful job

448
00:25:53,599 --> 00:25:56,559
painting like this is what it is like for an investigator.

449
00:25:56,599 --> 00:26:00,039
It is not glamorous. It is not a job that

450
00:25:59,839 --> 00:26:02,039
you get to do nine to five. You don't get

451
00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:04,440
to do it all glamorously dressed up. As Bill always

452
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,240
jokes when we're talking about CSI, there's not one scene

453
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,599
where they're just getting a bag of snack food from

454
00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:12,839
seven to eleven to hit the road and keep circulating

455
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,599
and talking to people. You really get the sense of

456
00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:18,119
this is a very difficult job.

457
00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:22,079
Speaker 3: And I used to run into both Josie and Mariandel

458
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,480
Josie Gonslfs of Mariandel with the two primary state police

459
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,720
investigators on the case, and at that time, the Standard

460
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:30,920
Times was an afternoon paper, so I would be in

461
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,160
at seven and my stories and then go out and report.

462
00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:36,720
And I would often see them that night because I'd

463
00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:39,359
be looking for some people on the street, particularly some

464
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,519
of the girls who are on the street. Just see

465
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:44,640
what they're hearing, what they're what they've seen. I'd always

466
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,440
swing by the DA's office, and the seven eleven was

467
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,960
downstairs from the DA's office, and I would see them

468
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,720
out there with their junk food coming out to get

469
00:26:54,759 --> 00:26:57,960
back into their on mark cruiser. They were working long,

470
00:26:58,039 --> 00:27:01,400
long hours at that time. Their dinner was not good.

471
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: No, I can imagine it's not the healthiest lifestyle with

472
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,559
the long hours and eating junk food in your unmarked car.

473
00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:14,039
Speaker 3: And everyone in the street knew the two of them

474
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,319
because both of them were very pleasant and very nice people.

475
00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:19,920
So just when they would pull up, and I know

476
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,440
there's one scene in the book where they pulled up

477
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,079
and some of the girls who were out there run

478
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,640
off until they realized who it was and then they

479
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,960
oh come back to talk with them.

480
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:33,279
Speaker 2: There has to be a delicate dance here because if

481
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:38,279
the investigators are talking to people that are involved in

482
00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:42,359
many examples with sex work and the sale and distribution

483
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,119
of drugs. So we're talking about people that are clearly

484
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,640
breaking the law. The investigators aren't there to bust people

485
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,759
for drugs or sex work. They're trying to solve a murder.

486
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,359
There has to be a real delicate dance there. How

487
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,200
do you convince people who work on their fringes of

488
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,160
society to talk to you when you're not there to

489
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,519
bust them for other behaviors. You're really trying to solve

490
00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:10,440
a series of unsolved murder.

491
00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 3: And that comes down to trust. They trusted the individuals

492
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,039
who were working the case. Now, both Marion and Josie,

493
00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:21,119
the two state troopers, they were the primary on the case,

494
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,279
but there were many other people that were also working

495
00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:27,079
other aspects of the case. They approached it as we're

496
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,720
looking for who the killer is. We're not here to

497
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,640
arrest you for this right now, you're not in trouble.

498
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,480
Because they knew that to get to the heart of

499
00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:41,519
what happened, they had to go into that world and

500
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,200
they had to earn the trust of the people that

501
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,640
were in that world, and that's what they did, and

502
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,119
unfortunately it still wasn't enough. The law enforcement side of things,

503
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,920
it really looks like they did everything they could conceivably do.

504
00:28:56,559 --> 00:29:02,079
So why do you think the new Bedford murder remain unsolved?

505
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:07,039
As you said earlier, this person has heild nine women

506
00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:10,640
presumably two more who are still missing, eleven total.

507
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 5: How do you go that long uncaught? Why do you

508
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,880
think this is still unsolved to this day.

509
00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:19,759
Speaker 3: I think part of it has to do with the

510
00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:24,240
time when it happened. We're talking nineteen eighty eight, and

511
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:26,279
that was a period of time when we did not

512
00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:29,920
have where everyone didn't have a mini computer in their pocket,

513
00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:35,440
everyone did not have a cell phone, There wasn't social media.

514
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,000
The surveillance cameras were really poor quality, and they were

515
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:44,079
mostly at gas stations. And the reason they were at

516
00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:47,480
gas stations is because people used to rob gas stations

517
00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:51,680
and convenience stores, and they were at banks. Today there

518
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,480
are surveillance cameras everywhere. If it happened today, the women

519
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,960
most likely would have had a cell phone on them,

520
00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:01,240
and they would have been able to track where they were,

521
00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:05,079
who they last had contact with, and see who else

522
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,920
might have been in that area. One of the other

523
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,759
problems with the case was by the time the investigation started,

524
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,480
the killer had already stopped is believed that the killer

525
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:19,000
stopped in September of that year.

526
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: Was there any sent among the investigators you talked to

527
00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,240
as to why the murders appeared to stop.

528
00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:29,839
Speaker 3: They had several different theories. One was the killer was dead.

529
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,440
Another was that he was a fisherman from down south

530
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,200
and a sword fisherman and had come up to New

531
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,359
Bedford for the summer spring summer and had gone back

532
00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:46,119
left the area. That was another theory. Another theory was

533
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,400
that he was in prison. There was another theory that

534
00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:54,559
he may have left the country or he had just

535
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,880
stopped for whatever reason. Many people seem to think that

536
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,839
serial killers just continue killing at a frenzy rate all

537
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,200
the time, but they do have cooling off periods, and

538
00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:10,240
for whatever reason, a serial killer can stop for a

539
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:14,160
period of time that may have happened here. They don't

540
00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:15,559
kill every single day.

541
00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: Something we mentioned to you off air was that we

542
00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:22,880
had received a tip last year from a woman who

543
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,079
believed there was a connection between a waterman from Virginia

544
00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:31,720
who she thought might be involved in the Colonial Parkway murders,

545
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:36,960
who interestingly moved to New Bedford continuing his work on

546
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,759
the water in nineteen eighty eight and would have been

547
00:31:39,799 --> 00:31:43,359
there right at the time that the murders started. Now,

548
00:31:43,359 --> 00:31:46,240
this guy has an extensive history of violence, and his

549
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,720
ex wife in this example, he was deceased by the

550
00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:53,519
time she and I spoke last year, but very interesting

551
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,119
given how much she knew about him and their life together,

552
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,839
which doesn't sound very pleasant. And then he ends up

553
00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:04,799
to New Bedford. Given his proclivities. It was very eye

554
00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:07,640
opening for Kristen and me to hear from this woman.

555
00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:11,480
If we were to pursue that tip, we then have

556
00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:16,599
to go back to the cold case detectives from Massachusetts

557
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:18,640
State Police. They're handling the case now.

558
00:32:18,839 --> 00:32:23,359
Speaker 3: Yes, their number would be five oh eight nine six

559
00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:28,599
one nineteen fourteen, and that would be Sergeant Hollis Crowley

560
00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:33,319
was in charge. The email would be Hollis dot Crowley

561
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,839
crow l e Y at pol dot state dot MA

562
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:43,839
dot us. People can also call this state police directly

563
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,359
on a line called massoff. It would be eight five

564
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:52,559
five six two seven sixty five eighty three. That'd be

565
00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:54,599
eight five five MSLF.

566
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,119
Speaker 2: When we were talking about the bodies being found outside

567
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,680
New Bedford, New Bedford PD wasn't the lead agency. It

568
00:33:03,759 --> 00:33:07,200
sounds like in most of this investigation. So how is

569
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,039
it that it's the Massachusetts State Police and not local

570
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,440
law enforcement.

571
00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 3: In Massachusetts has to do with the way they do

572
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,720
things in Massachusetts. Each of the District attorney's offices has

573
00:33:18,759 --> 00:33:22,200
a State Police unit assigned to them, and the state

574
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,000
Police has jurisdiction for the most part of all of

575
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:28,960
the homicides in the state. With the exception of a

576
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,079
few cities like Boston, the state police do not have

577
00:33:33,359 --> 00:33:37,599
the primary investigation and homicides in Boston. So the state

578
00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:42,319
police are the primary investigators in the homicides, and they

579
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,559
work with the local police departments in the case they

580
00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:50,519
pair up when they're covering these now in this case

581
00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:54,519
to complicate the investigation. To go back to Kristen's question

582
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:57,519
about how things are different in some of the challenges.

583
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,079
The bodies were found in the town of Town, which

584
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:03,680
is a town north of New Bedford that was a

585
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,159
small town at the time, Dartmouth, which is to the west.

586
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,159
Three of the bodies were found in Dartmouth. That was

587
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,679
for the bodies for the bodies were found in Dartmouth,

588
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,840
which is to the west, the town west of New Bedford.

589
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,840
There was a body found in Westport, which is one

590
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,119
town over from Dartmouth, and then there was another body

591
00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:28,800
that was found in Marion, which is in a completely

592
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,639
different county, a couple of towns over from New Bedford.

593
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,760
Most of the bodies were found right along the highway,

594
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:40,719
just inside the brush line, so that you wouldn't have

595
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,039
seen them if you're driving by. But if, let's say

596
00:34:44,119 --> 00:34:47,159
someone pulled over, is what happened in at least two

597
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,320
of the cases, pulled over to the side of the

598
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,239
road to quote unquote use the facilities. That is how

599
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,800
the bodies could be discovered. In a couple of cases,

600
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,960
it was highway Queen Up cruise found bodies. Some other cases,

601
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,320
especially trained dogs that were brought in from the other bodies.

602
00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,960
One of the bodies that was found in Westport, which

603
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,360
is unusual, it was found on a road in a

604
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,280
brush on a road that goes to a state beach

605
00:35:15,639 --> 00:35:18,960
on Beautiful Beach cult Horseneck Beach, and to get there

606
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,280
you would take a road off of one ninety five,

607
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,760
which was the highway that most of the bodies were

608
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,719
found on. My theory is that the killer had planned

609
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,519
to dump that body on one ninety five, but for

610
00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:36,599
whatever reason, he got spooked and kept on driving and

611
00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:40,199
took that exit and wound up on this other secondary

612
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,079
highway and dumped Mary Rose Santos's body on Wreugh eighty

613
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:45,280
eight and Westport.

614
00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: How were these women kill?

615
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: Do we know? At least two of them they were

616
00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,960
they believed were strangled, and they believe all of them were.

617
00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:58,239
The rest of them was quote unquote and inconclusive just

618
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,880
because of the deterior of the remains. But they believe

619
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,159
that two of them were strangled based on what they found.

620
00:36:06,559 --> 00:36:09,400
There was clothing wrapped around their necks.

621
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 5: So are you still keeping an ear to the ground

622
00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:15,639
on the new Bedford case? Will you be one of

623
00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:18,119
the first to know if it does get solved? Do

624
00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:21,119
you still have people inside the law enforcement community who

625
00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:23,400
would give you a heads up if there's something that

626
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,079
broke I hope so.

627
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 3: I hope so. But obviously the first people to know

628
00:36:29,079 --> 00:36:32,719
would be those that house have solved it, and that

629
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,800
would they would be the first, and I would hope

630
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,039
the second would be the families. And I am convinced

631
00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:40,960
that once they identify who the killer is, and I

632
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,400
am convinced at some point they will identify the killer.

633
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,719
I don't know when I didn't think it would take

634
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,039
over thirty years, but they will look back in their

635
00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:52,239
records and they will find the name of that person.

636
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:56,119
I really think that they have cross paths with the

637
00:36:56,199 --> 00:37:01,639
killer at some point during the investigation. Reason why, here's

638
00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:04,599
another reason why it was also so difficult to solve.

639
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:08,119
They didn't have PCs the way we have them today.

640
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,599
You didn't have a searchable databases like we have now.

641
00:37:13,079 --> 00:37:14,800
People were typing.

642
00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: Reports and even handwriting reports. We found this in the

643
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,800
Colonial Parkway murders as well. There's there were five thousand

644
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,119
documents in Kathy, my sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca's

645
00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:30,880
part of the Colonial Parkway murders. Five thousand documents in

646
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,119
two thousand and ten, and it's probably many more since then.

647
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:40,800
So they said that cross referencing was incredibly difficult.

648
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 3: And that's the same here. They were starting to computerize

649
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,639
the records. Rui Pachico, who was in charge of the

650
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,840
Drug Task Force at that point assigned to the DA's office.

651
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,119
He was starting to put the records onto a computer.

652
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,599
But it really and now there's I'm sure at this

653
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,559
point they've also scanned reports and things like that to

654
00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:05,960
make it searchable. Maybe hopefully something will pop up. But

655
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:08,920
that was also another reason, or less you could. They

656
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,960
had to rely very much on people's experiences, investigators experiences,

657
00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:14,000
and their memories.

658
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,639
Speaker 5: I know you said that writing a book is terribly difficult,

659
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,159
and we've both tried it, so we know if we

660
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:20,920
agree with you.

661
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,679
Speaker 3: Do you have another book that you're working on or

662
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,280
was one enough? Since then I wrote two other books.

663
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,920
One was called The Ghost the Murder of Police Chief

664
00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:33,599
Craig Adams and the Hunt for His Killer. That was

665
00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:37,440
about a Pennsylvania police chief who was killed by a

666
00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:41,199
individual from a criminal from New Bedford who is in

667
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,079
the town of Saxonburg and Butler County in Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania,

668
00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:48,599
who was scouting out some jewelry stores to rob. And

669
00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:51,800
then this guy just disappeared for years, even though he

670
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,840
was on the FBI's most wanted list. And then my

671
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,480
book after that was Child Last Scene, which was about

672
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,280
the eight disappearance of a sixteen year old girl in

673
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,039
Pennsyl Western Pennsylvania. They had a suspect in that case

674
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,760
and it wasn't until someone came forward that they were

675
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,119
able to solve the case years and years later. And

676
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,000
finally locates a child, and right now I'm writing about another.

677
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,159
It wasn't quite a Cold Colds case, but it's about

678
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:24,719
a fifteen year old girl who was abducted by a

679
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,360
convicted serial killer and killed, and is the long quest

680
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,000
for justice in that case.

681
00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:34,679
Speaker 5: Oh, that sounds fascinating. Do you have a publication date

682
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,159
for that yet? Or are you still working on it?

683
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 3: I am still working on it. Marine.

684
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,039
Speaker 5: Tell us where everybody can find your book.

685
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 3: The book can be found Barnes Noble. If they don't

686
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,440
have it in stock, they can order it on Amazon,

687
00:39:48,119 --> 00:39:50,519
and any of your local bookstores can order it for

688
00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:55,199
you a million. I believe can't forget book for a million.

689
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 5: The book is Shallow Graves The Hunt for the near

690
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,199
Bedford Highway serial Killer. Marine, thank you for joining us.

691
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,480
We really appreciate you shedding some light on the case.

692
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:08,679
And thank you both for having me on the show.

693
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,920
I really appreciate it, and thank you so much for

694
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,159
sharing the story of all these women who were killed

695
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,239
and the two that are still missing. That is going

696
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,920
to do it for this episode of Mind Over Murder.

697
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,800
We will put a link to Marine's book into those

698
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:27,840
phone numbers. Four tips in our show notes. Thank you

699
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,679
so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

700
00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:43,679
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

701
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,159
Another Dog Productions.

702
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,039
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

703
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

704
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,559
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

705
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

706
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:03,079
Speaker 2: Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

707
00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

708
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,599
Murders on Facebook.

709
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

710
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,039
Bill Thomas five six.

711
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:15,639
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.

712
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:00,280
Speaker 5: Yeah,