Speaker 1: All right, I'm here with Johannah mcbrian. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being back.
Speaker 2: You're welcome.
Speaker 1: Thank you for asking me checking in ten years later.
Speaker 1: I just looked, so I was ten years flew by.
Speaker 2: And we've known each other for a lot longer than that.
Speaker 1: But the last time I was, I.
Speaker 2: Was on your your recording, it was it was ten
Speaker 2: years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. I mean I remember when I do
Speaker 1: believe that when we very first met. I had a
Speaker 1: piece of New Hampshire furniture at my auction and you
Speaker 1: showed up with brock Joke and you were there making notes,
Speaker 1: taking measurements, all that stuff. That's when we first.
Speaker 2: Met nine months ago. That was for the master Work
Speaker 2: of Portsmouth Furniture Book and exhibition. Yeah, that was that
Speaker 2: was a lot of fun whenever I met a lot
Speaker 2: of people, a lot of great people through that. So
Speaker 2: I appreciate it that counity.
Speaker 1: I love that book. I have that book and that's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite points.
Speaker 2: And they had the anniversary at the Historical side of
Speaker 2: the Portsmouth recently, not recently, that was probably five years
Speaker 2: ago at this point. I know Jerry Ward put that,
Speaker 2: uh put that a book together and I gave a
Speaker 2: little presentation actually a Lanley boardman who was one of
Speaker 2: the cabinet makers whom I wrote for the book, and
Speaker 2: he was also one of my thesis, the focus of
Speaker 2: my thesis with Samuel Dock when they're both cabinet makers
Speaker 2: enforcement and the I had actually discovered where he trained
Speaker 2: and who put whom he trained.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: I gave a talk there as part of the series
Speaker 2: of the anniversary and unfortunately it will never be published,
Speaker 2: so it will, I guess just go die with me,
Speaker 2: but those who are at the at the session. So
Speaker 2: but yeah, I traced him back to Salem and uh
Speaker 2: and to the into where he were. It was a
Speaker 2: lot of fun.
Speaker 1: Now as far as these things used to seem like
Speaker 1: they mattered so much more, and you know, years ago,
Speaker 1: like when people really really into like for instance, it
Speaker 1: was a wonderful opportunity to own a really nice piece
Speaker 1: support Smith furniture. And you know, I loved those little
Speaker 1: drop apron you know, paneled both front chests and you
Speaker 1: know with the beautiful satin wood and you know match
Speaker 1: Mahogany veneers and all that, and does that still exist
Speaker 1: there's you know, I mean, I know things are selling
Speaker 1: for a fraction, but there's still people that want this
Speaker 1: type of furniture.
Speaker 2: I would certainly hope. So again, I'm not in that.
Speaker 2: When we spoke last ten years ago, I was the
Speaker 2: founding editor of Antiqusifinder Magazine, which now no longer survives
Speaker 2: now is in collect Magazine. That's why I stayed with
Speaker 2: it for so long. I was there for twenty something
Speaker 2: years because I knew that once I left, it's folks
Speaker 2: would shift, and I wanted to stay as long as
Speaker 2: I could to provide a forum for people, for scholars
Speaker 2: to publish material. And so I was very in tuned,
Speaker 2: you know, with with who was buying and whatnot at
Speaker 2: that point. And I've been here at Denna Museum and
Speaker 2: Archive in Dena, mass for seven years this June actually,
Speaker 2: and so I'm not I don't go to the auctions
Speaker 2: like I used to, but I still do go I
Speaker 2: still do attend antique shows and there's certainly still course
Speaker 2: with furniture that I do find, you know, when I
Speaker 2: go through the antique shows, particularly the New Hampshire and
Speaker 2: TSE Dealer Show and the Manchester New Hampshire Shows and
Speaker 2: the other shows that are up there. Deerfield et cetera.
Speaker 2: So it's definitely still out there. There's definitely interest. People
Speaker 2: say there's no interest in brownwood anymore. I don't. I
Speaker 2: don't agree with that. I think that's just been a
Speaker 2: market adjustment because things have gotten so high in price
Speaker 2: that they the average person couldn't afford it.
Speaker 1: That's correct es actually.
Speaker 2: Younger people, because I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when
Speaker 2: most people don't seriously collect, at least in the last
Speaker 2: several decades until they get a little older, because they
Speaker 2: have house to pay off, college to pay off themselves
Speaker 2: and their kids, so they don't have the resources to
Speaker 2: seriously buy something in the in the five digits plus category.
Speaker 2: So a lot of smalls, we find a lot of
Speaker 2: smalls are purchased. A lot of people start off with
Speaker 2: smalls because that's what you can afford, and you can
Speaker 2: add little accents with smalls and people. There was a
Speaker 2: for a long time, a big push with modernism, and
Speaker 2: that's now not as big as it was. For a while.
Speaker 2: You know, the gray and the black and the white
Speaker 2: and everything sleek and whatnot. Then there became more interest
Speaker 2: in this was the term. It's basically maximalism instead of minimalism,
Speaker 2: and so you know, lots of textures and colors and
Speaker 2: you know, patterns in a space, and oftentimes there'll be
Speaker 2: like an accent piece of a one nice really nice
Speaker 2: piece and then smalls you know associated that because again
Speaker 2: you first of all, it's a living comfortable the comfortable
Speaker 2: living aesthetic that I think is also changed. Most people
Speaker 2: don't live in formal houses like museum houses anymore. They
Speaker 2: don't live in a formal side dining room for example,
Speaker 2: the side or laid out. That's why silver isn't as
Speaker 2: popular as it used to be, because people don't do
Speaker 2: that anymore. China, forget about it. I mean, people just
Speaker 2: can't give it away. You know that from I'm sure
Speaker 2: from you know, being the auctions, because people don't have
Speaker 2: these multi course meals anymore. So culture is changing, and
Speaker 2: as culture changes, the interests as far as what people
Speaker 2: want to live with. And again, living in a formal
Speaker 2: setting isn't what many people feel is comfortable. So that's
Speaker 2: why this this shift towards more and also and then
Speaker 2: you have the modernism, which is again cool and whatnot.
Speaker 2: It's still you still see in the designer decorated books.
Speaker 2: It's still chic, but the comfort aspect of the of
Speaker 2: the textiles and the patterns and the and the stuff
Speaker 2: is also now a part of it. And again I
Speaker 2: think the accents play large part, especially with people who
Speaker 2: are who are not able to spend a thousand or
Speaker 2: more on something. Even though an accent piece can be
Speaker 2: a small can be that much too. And when I
Speaker 2: go to a show, I tend to buy buy things.
Speaker 2: In fact, I saw Clayton Pennington of Manti Digestive last
Speaker 2: year at the New Hampshire and Tip Show and he
Speaker 2: and Lada No, it was actually in New York and January.
Speaker 2: I hadn't been in there five years, but I decide, okay,
Speaker 2: so that should go down. And I saw Clayton and
Speaker 2: Leda Lida Salls Colin. She's amazing, she's in her nineties,
Speaker 2: God bless her. And they were like, oh, we should
Speaker 2: do an article on you. And you know, you know
Speaker 2: what's you collect. It's like I wouldn't say I'm a collector, certainly.
Speaker 2: I I just it's things that I enjoy. So it's
Speaker 2: nothing even't expensive at all, trust me. But there are
Speaker 2: things that I enjoy it like smalls And when I
Speaker 2: go to the antique shows show I can afford things
Speaker 2: that I'll buy things that are just small, you know,
Speaker 2: like a little a little miniature bench or you know, silver,
Speaker 2: a pewter shoe or just entiniable things that are just
Speaker 2: from little accents because they make me happy. And that's
Speaker 2: I think the important thing is is you want to
Speaker 2: look at something and you want to make you happy.
Speaker 2: And you should never buy for investment, you know, That's right,
Speaker 2: that's like buying one oh one. Do not buy for investment,
Speaker 2: as you guilt. You know what's going to happen in
Speaker 2: the market, you don't know how interest are going to change,
Speaker 2: and so buy what you love, what.
Speaker 1: You love because you're living with it, live with it exactly.
Speaker 1: That's what I've told people many times over the years
Speaker 1: when they ask what should I invest in? You know,
Speaker 1: because you know, we all, as they say, as dealers,
Speaker 1: we all live with our mistakes to that, as they say,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think you know, the trend are are
Speaker 1: funny when you think about him, But I remember, you
Speaker 1: know you think about I know you're a furniture lover.
Speaker 1: You love a nice period American furniture and.
Speaker 2: Me but I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, like you think of like Garter Townsend or
Speaker 1: a really nice Boston Peace, you know, I mean, they're
Speaker 1: They're just wonderful, and you would hope that market. I
Speaker 1: remember that Albert Sach bid for the Brown I want
Speaker 1: to say the Brown Secretary at twelve million dollars and
Speaker 1: at the time it was a young couple that bought that.
Speaker 1: You know those I don't think that would happen today, and.
Speaker 2: I I it would be. It would be unusual for
Speaker 2: that way. And Ashuly, my cousin, Alan Reid made the reproduction.
Speaker 1: For the I didn't know he was your cousin. I've
Speaker 1: known Alan since I was a kid. Alan is awesome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I did a podcast with him.
Speaker 2: Oh that's great, good, good good. He's a great guy,
Speaker 2: so talented. He made the copy for the that's right.
Speaker 2: Family could still have the have it. But you bring
Speaker 2: up an interesting design point is that to me, classic
Speaker 2: design is classic design. It doesn't matter when it was made.
Speaker 2: So it can be from the goddard in towns in time,
Speaker 2: it can be from the nineteen sixties. If it's great design,
Speaker 2: it's great design, and they work together. And that's what
Speaker 2: people are doing more too. They're meshing time periods as
Speaker 2: long as the design works, it doesn't matter when it
Speaker 2: was made. So that's why you have fun when you collect.
Speaker 2: You know, you can buy from different time periods as
Speaker 2: long as they work together. Have fun with it. You know,
Speaker 2: you don't have to follow this this guide of you
Speaker 2: know what am I collecting? Am I doing it the
Speaker 2: right way? Follow your gut, follow your heart, and if
Speaker 2: it's something sings to you, then bam. You know that's
Speaker 2: the way to go. And if I could collect anything seriously,
Speaker 2: if I win the lottery, I certainly will. It would
Speaker 2: be actually Salem in Massachusetts from the seventeen seventies ish
Speaker 2: time period, because you have that Newport gracefulman, but it's
Speaker 2: even better, and the wood is so dense and heavy
Speaker 2: and beautiful mahogany, and there's just that gorgeous line that
Speaker 2: Hogarth curve, you know, and the and the and the
Speaker 2: carving of the I mean the shaping of uh no, no,
Speaker 2: no McIntyre.
Speaker 3: Actually McIntyre's a little later years later, but this is
Speaker 3: uh this is smack dab in the middle of you know,
Speaker 3: the the eighteenth century, and it's just such a little
Speaker 3: later mid to late eighteenth century.
Speaker 2: It's just a gorgeous, but it's it's simple. It's simple beauty,
Speaker 2: just like Hogarth. That's it, you know, the simple beauty.
Speaker 2: And that's that's that's what you That's what I look for,
Speaker 2: is just and that's what I appreciate when I go
Speaker 2: to a museum or I go to Manchie show and
Speaker 2: draw out of that simple beauty. And I like funky
Speaker 2: things too, you know. But it's again, classic design is
Speaker 2: classic design doesn't matter what time. Look a look at fashion.
Speaker 2: Women's fashion for example, you know they they cycle back around,
Speaker 2: you know, the hemlines or whatever it is, even men's ties,
Speaker 2: you know, the thin the thing that's I mean just
Speaker 2: just nothing's new. It just kind of gets added on.
Speaker 2: What is I think Steve Jobs, although he was not
Speaker 2: the first one to say this, basically said, you know
Speaker 2: how he came. You know why he was successful is
Speaker 2: he took other people's ideas and made them better.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's kind of funny you think about what
Speaker 1: we talked earlier about sort of the Federal era designs.
Speaker 1: You know, Hepa White, the Chippendale and all that. How
Speaker 1: they shere it and how it seemed like every twenty
Speaker 1: years it be a revival of that as you go along.
Speaker 1: You used to be much more involved in auctions than
Speaker 1: you are these days. But I wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: since you and I have talked. We had this little
Speaker 1: thing called the pandemic, and that kind of changed everything
Speaker 1: for a while. I remember I I didn't know what
Speaker 1: I was going to do when that first happened. I
Speaker 1: knew I couldn't do appraisals anymore. I couldn't, you know,
Speaker 1: be involved in auctions anymore for a while. But I
Speaker 1: did a very interesting podcast with three different auction companies
Speaker 1: during the pandemic, and I remember Wes. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of Wes, and yes, Wes Cowen said a collector
Speaker 1: has to collect, they'll figure it out. And I really
Speaker 1: thought that was really a great saying because they did.
Speaker 1: I mean, look at the group shops when they started
Speaker 1: opening up. They were flooded with people buying. You know,
Speaker 1: everyone that I knew that owned a group shop was
Speaker 1: doing really well. Eventually auctions came back, and what I
Speaker 1: thought was going to happen was I thought it would
Speaker 1: be like a dam breaking, like they'd be so much
Speaker 1: flooded into the market, and it kind of happened that
Speaker 1: it would change everything. I look at my friend John McGinnis,
Speaker 1: for instance, and he's still backed up, you know, like
Speaker 1: a year a worth of merchandise here and there and
Speaker 1: all over the place, ready to sell all the time.
Speaker 1: So we're kind of force feeding. I had a conversation
Speaker 1: with John, I don't know, not that long ago, and
Speaker 1: he said, buyers, buyers is what I need. I need
Speaker 1: buyers get me buyers, not sellers. So right, right right,
Speaker 1: I mean, but we made it through the pandemic. We're
Speaker 1: still going things. It depends on what it is. Some
Speaker 1: things seem to be holding really well. Some things, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a hit or miss. I think you could have
Speaker 1: something in three different auctions and get three different extremes.
Speaker 1: I mean, these things are possible.
Speaker 2: So so much of it is location, location, location, location.
Speaker 2: Who where you sell a collection, And oftentimes collections have
Speaker 2: a lot of material and some things are going to
Speaker 2: do better in one place and other things would have
Speaker 2: done better had they gone somewhere else. But a family
Speaker 2: just wants to, you know, move along, so everything goes
Speaker 2: to one location and that that's always been an issue.
Speaker 2: And then you have other things like the Scrimshaw issues,
Speaker 2: you know, the which have unfortunately impacted, you know, antis
Speaker 2: dealers and collectors. I mean, think of people who.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit expand on that a little bit.
Speaker 1: There was the Endangered Species Act of nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 1: but it's been really heavily enforced and now you need
Speaker 1: a certificate of some kind right when you go to
Speaker 1: South I believe so, yeah, yeah, which is costly.
Speaker 2: It's costly, and also a lot of historic objects have
Speaker 2: been have been destroyed because of it. And unfortunately I
Speaker 2: actually spoke at the State House here in Boston with
Speaker 2: other people in the field when there were bills in
Speaker 2: Massachusetts related to in Dager Species Act. And I'm all
Speaker 2: for saving elephants me too, but you can't the things
Speaker 2: that were made hundreds of years ago. You can't put
Speaker 2: those in the same pot as things that are being
Speaker 2: done today, being poached and killed for their testimony. That's yes,
Speaker 2: of course they back then as well, but it's it's
Speaker 2: you can't put them in the same basket. And of
Speaker 2: course we want bills that save the elephants and that
Speaker 2: prevent you know, poaching and and all these horrible things
Speaker 2: that are happening now. But it doesn't mean you punish
Speaker 2: the artifacts and the history. And there's a great miniature
Speaker 2: portrait miniature sorry, somebody's rimming bell of John Ravage by
Speaker 2: John Ravage, I believe, of George Washington on Ivory. So
Speaker 2: you can destroy that because it's on Ivory. I mean, seriously,
Speaker 2: it's it's part of history. It's just crazy.
Speaker 1: So are these things, like you're saying, they're not like
Speaker 1: being destroyed destroyed? Are they?
Speaker 2: I mean, well, some are being some from what I understand,
Speaker 2: are being a disposed of or seized and or seized. Uh.
Speaker 2: And so it's it is a serious issue with antiques,
Speaker 2: you know, because so and it's difficult to tell whether
Speaker 2: something is Elphant Ivory or you know, if it's you know,
Speaker 2: uh lawrus Tusk or whatnot. If it's if it's the truth,
Speaker 2: you can tell the difference.
Speaker 1: But well, there's also the I R S as far
Speaker 1: as fair market and as far as a state tax purposes.
Speaker 1: If you have, say Asian Ivory, it's not even you know,
Speaker 1: whenever it's made, you have to appraise it as if
Speaker 1: you could sell it. When you're appraising for the I
Speaker 1: R S. Right, right, But even though you can't sell it,
Speaker 1: you have to appraise it. As if you can. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a tough it's a tough situation.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: When I come across people that say what do I
Speaker 1: do with this? I say, well you can. I don't
Speaker 1: even know if you can donate it. I I've been
Speaker 1: telling people if they could, but I don't even know
Speaker 1: if that's if that's another issue that I'm.
Speaker 2: Not I can't give you an answer. We haven't had
Speaker 2: that issue at the museum, so I can't. I can't.
Speaker 2: If somebody offers us something, then we have to look
Speaker 2: into that. But I don't know. Actually, what's it? What
Speaker 2: are amusing collections? Hopefully they want be damaged. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a changing you know, it's always a
Speaker 2: changing landscape. It's just and again that's the reason why
Speaker 2: you buy what you love and don't buy for investment. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so you live with it and you appreciate it, and
Speaker 2: you love what you have and don't plan to you know,
Speaker 2: I'll sell this is going to be my retirement fund,
Speaker 2: and I'll sell it, you know, twenty years down the road,
Speaker 2: because you never know what's what the interests are going
Speaker 2: to be, or what the laws are going to be,
Speaker 2: you know, for for so that's why it's really critical
Speaker 2: to have that your heart sing. And if your heart
Speaker 2: doesn't sing when you see things, and you shouldn't be collecting.
Speaker 2: But as you pointed out, with the pandemic, true collectors,
Speaker 2: they're always looking for you know, it's it's a it's
Speaker 2: a it's a it's a need, it's a it's a session,
Speaker 2: it's a per session. And when I worked with Wayne
Speaker 2: Pride Antiques, this is back early in the nineties, No,
Speaker 2: mid nineties, I can't remember at this point, yeah, late nineties,
Speaker 2: and he was a consummate. He couldn't He just had
Speaker 2: to sell things. He couldn't hold on to anything. He
Speaker 2: didn't want to. He first of all, he didn't want
Speaker 2: to deny his clients, his best clients. The best stop
Speaker 2: by holding himself. He loves selling things, so he I
Speaker 2: remember one story he told me. He was He was
Speaker 2: sitting back in his chair over his desk, his feet
Speaker 2: up on the desk, saying, Hey, Johanna, I finally got
Speaker 2: this chair back. I said, when I was he said,
Speaker 2: when I was twelve years old, I sold this Windsor chair.
Speaker 2: Is the best windsor I had ever seen. And his
Speaker 2: specialty was Windsor's in antack of baskets blocked on chest,
Speaker 2: you know, my Cahoun paintings, et cetera. And he said,
Speaker 2: this is the best Windsor chair. And I promised myself,
Speaker 2: if I ever got it back, this is the one
Speaker 2: thing I would keep. The next day he was sold.
Speaker 2: Couldn't he couldn't sell. He could have not sell. So
Speaker 2: that was his passion. He loved collecting, so you know,
Speaker 2: and sell and selling, and you know he had he
Speaker 2: had the collectors loved to love to collect, and so
Speaker 2: it was that's what that's what you know, that's why
Speaker 2: people go into the business. They love the material and
Speaker 2: they love to love to sell, and you know, place
Speaker 2: place things in the right places, right locations.
Speaker 1: So anyway, well I remember he he bought uh the
Speaker 1: at the Bartlet auction that I had in nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 1: He bought the apothecary Chess and I had. What I
Speaker 1: did was I had to move that thing. It was
Speaker 1: all It was full of the drugs, original all the
Speaker 1: way through, including a whole drawer full of lead pills
Speaker 1: that they used to prescribe. So I had all the
Speaker 1: I had all the drugs. I had one of my
Speaker 1: helpers at the time take each one out, label it
Speaker 1: in a bag and put everything in a bag. So
Speaker 1: we had all these you know, like I don't know
Speaker 1: how many drawers there were. There was like fifty sixty drawers,
Speaker 1: maybe even more.
Speaker 2: I remember that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Wayne, Wayne bought that at the time, and
Speaker 1: that was that was just a beautiful piece. And for
Speaker 1: some reason the State of New Hampshire didn't want it
Speaker 1: when they bought the other pieces. But yeah, that was
Speaker 1: that was incredible. But I remember dealing dealing. That was
Speaker 1: the only time. I mean I had talked to Wayne
Speaker 1: before different times, but that was like the first one
Speaker 1: on one dealing I had on him directly with that,
Speaker 1: and he was I just said, oh my god, this
Speaker 1: guy's funny. He's said character.
Speaker 2: He really is he he I should say, was he? Uh?
Speaker 2: He was. His mind was like a steel trap. He
Speaker 2: had like the memory every deal, every person, every contact,
Speaker 2: every whatever. It was there yead his great eyes where
Speaker 2: he would just remember every object word that he'd seen
Speaker 2: it before, and you know, is the same way. And
Speaker 2: he really knew his stuff and he was a really
Speaker 2: actually most people don't realize that he was very giving, caring, funny, uh,
Speaker 2: generous person, you know to those who you know worked
Speaker 2: with him, and you know if he didn't show that,
Speaker 2: you know, publicly in the same way. So but he did.
Speaker 2: He had a great sense of humor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's great, and I think that's a that's
Speaker 1: that's funny. I used to say that I remember things,
Speaker 1: not names. Like if I would see a person and
Speaker 1: they would have me in their house, I remember where
Speaker 1: they had as Simon Willard clock over their mantle or
Speaker 1: whatever it was. You know, like I remember those type
Speaker 1: of things, and when I run into them again, I'd say, oh, hey,
Speaker 1: do you still have that clock? But I couldn't remember
Speaker 1: their name, so that that didn't help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm there with you.
Speaker 1: It's true when we see something exciting, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: here's the thing we can talk about again.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The appreciation that I have and I know you have
Speaker 1: tenfold of what I have, is how one fall these
Speaker 1: pieces of furniture were made with the tools that they
Speaker 1: had to make them with, and the lighting and everything
Speaker 1: you can imagine, and the apprentices working and just how
Speaker 1: they made such perfection on some of these pieces, and
Speaker 1: it's they're like a piece of artwork. Some of these
Speaker 1: pieces of furniture and and the drawers still work perfectly,
Speaker 1: and you know, I mean, it's just amazing. And I
Speaker 1: remember your cousin Alan Breed told me when he was
Speaker 1: making that copy that there were some things he just
Speaker 1: couldn't understand how they could have done with the tools
Speaker 1: they had at the time. You know, there were all
Speaker 1: these little trick things and you know that trick doors
Speaker 1: are something that you know, he just said, it was
Speaker 1: just the watches underneath.
Speaker 2: You have to trust something in the whole center. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's and the amazing thing about it is that they
Speaker 2: weren't taking their time. I mean they had to make
Speaker 2: money too, so they were I mean they had you know, assembly,
Speaker 2: you know, even though it was different from to the
Speaker 2: fancy chairs and whatnot, where things literally are piece piece
Speaker 2: piece pieces. Uh then severally lines later on, but even
Speaker 2: in a cabinet jop you'd have something to make dovetails
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. But they were they weren't just you
Speaker 2: know there. In fact, Alan he uh, I'm writing a
Speaker 2: conversation with him once where he had a several let's say,
Speaker 2: six uh Portsmouth games chair type crest to carve to recreate,
Speaker 2: and he said the first one, you know, took he
Speaker 2: just took a bit for him to kind of get
Speaker 2: into the groove. But then you know, once he started
Speaker 2: moving along, he just knocked them out, you know, because
Speaker 2: you got into a rhythm and you again, you were
Speaker 2: on the clock. You wanted to make money. So even
Speaker 2: though yes, these things still survive, and yes it's amazing
Speaker 2: and how some of them were made, but they were
Speaker 2: you know, they weren't like being ar teeths. They were
Speaker 2: they were doing the job and that had to be done.
Speaker 2: And but there was craftsmanship, you know, versus just you know,
Speaker 2: whipping it together and and you know, rid of here
Speaker 2: out of the next one. There was definitely a craft
Speaker 2: that ship involved. As it was your reputation too, you
Speaker 2: want that. I was actually, there's a there's a lost
Speaker 2: art books. I think it is not to plug somebody's business,
Speaker 2: but he just re or just just reproduced h French
Speaker 2: seventeenth or eighteen eighteenth century books on tools and workmanship.
Speaker 2: And if I was still in that field in the
Speaker 2: same way, I would buy it in a heartbeat, because
Speaker 2: it's it's it's been translated also, so it's not in
Speaker 2: the original obviously the original French version. But at that
Speaker 2: I mean I look at my bookcase. I mean in
Speaker 2: my bookcase is at home, and that's right, that's where
Speaker 2: you know, I put the so much focuses collecting these
Speaker 2: great books of the years.
Speaker 1: But you know, and how how did the designs a
Speaker 1: lot of them originate. You think of like apple White
Speaker 1: or Sherat and you know, and and England, and yet
Speaker 1: the design comes over to America all in about the
Speaker 1: same time. And was that through publications?
Speaker 2: It was through publications, It was from imported furniture and
Speaker 2: also from craftsmen. All the craftsmen came up over so
Speaker 2: they they bring their knowledge and their skills. Actually, where
Speaker 2: I am now, the Dead Museum in Arca, we have
Speaker 2: furniture from the seventeenth century sixteen thirties time period, and
Speaker 2: it's made. It's attributed to a craftsman who was in
Speaker 2: England and trained there and about ten miles away from
Speaker 2: where he lived. His name is John Thurston. There was
Speaker 2: a pulpit and carvings that match what's on the chair,
Speaker 2: for example, And Bob Saint George Robert St. George was
Speaker 2: the first one to write about this, or an earlier
Speaker 2: person to write about this in his book, his book
Speaker 2: on the seventieth century Craft. And this is the oldest
Speaker 2: date of piece of furniture in America, so it's an
Speaker 2: extraordinary piece. It's a great chair, and they are earlier
Speaker 2: pieces made done in Plymouth, but this is the oldest
Speaker 2: stated piece of sixteen fifty two. But you can see,
Speaker 2: you know his car. But he came over, he brought,
Speaker 2: he brought what he knew in England and you know,
Speaker 2: made the furniture in the same manner as he made
Speaker 2: in England. Then he trained another fellow who came over
Speaker 2: at a younger age at about fourteen. His name was
Speaker 2: John Houghton, and that you can see the similar similarities.
Speaker 2: We have a John Thurston, he was given the master
Speaker 2: as they were called at the time. We have that chair,
Speaker 2: the great chair, and we have a chest that we
Speaker 2: bought actually at some other piece in twenty nineteen that's
Speaker 2: tribute to him. And then we have a matching chest,
Speaker 2: you know, with three panel carb chest that's made by
Speaker 2: the fellow, his apprentice whom he trained here, John Houghton,
Speaker 2: that was actually owned by the Fairbanks family and the
Speaker 2: Fairbanks house here in Denham is the oldest timber frame
Speaker 2: house in North America. It's extraordinary, so not just much
Speaker 2: to the US, US and Canada. And then he Houghton
Speaker 2: also made again the Apprentice, also made a matching or
Speaker 2: a great chair that has the same laws engine, the
Speaker 2: back panel which is the diamond shaped, similar shaped crest,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, and the three panel chests are
Speaker 2: almost identical even the way they're made, with the with
Speaker 2: the interlacing bottom boards. And so as far as I know,
Speaker 2: we're the only museum that has from the seventieth century
Speaker 2: matching Master Apprentice forms. It's really very cool. But the
Speaker 2: point is, yeah, it was right. And Thurston who was
Speaker 2: again the Master, also was one of the builders of
Speaker 2: the Fairbanks House and he also built the first school
Speaker 2: and meeting house. And Denham is the first community in
Speaker 2: the colonies lease in England to where the public voted
Speaker 2: for a tax supported public school. So that's very cool
Speaker 2: in the sixteen forties. But anyway, so he was very
Speaker 2: involved in the town. But the point being back to
Speaker 2: your question, he came over from England and we can
Speaker 2: trace exactly you know where he we know where he lived.
Speaker 2: But then with then within ten miles, there's this carving
Speaker 2: that matches what's on the chair, and so that's that's
Speaker 2: that's the fastest way that the styles would get you know, introduced,
Speaker 2: and not just in the seventeenth century. That continues, you know,
Speaker 2: through the eighteenth century, et cetera. On. But again, once
Speaker 2: you get the pattern books like the Happo Whites and
Speaker 2: Shared Heppo White, Charity's pattern Books, Charity and Happle Whites books,
Speaker 2: that's also you know, that's where you get more of
Speaker 2: a extended similarities because they're following. Chippendale's book wasn't as
Speaker 2: in earlier in the eighteenth century, it wasn't as distributed
Speaker 2: as widely, and there are other pattern books as well.
Speaker 2: This was not the only one. Chipendale was not the
Speaker 2: only one in eighteenth century. Well, but you also you
Speaker 2: also have cabinet makers producing their own books and their
Speaker 2: own price thing and whatnot. Winter Tour has some examples
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: For example, Wow, yeah, what a great museum that is.
Speaker 2: So I was lucky to go there, really was. It was.
Speaker 2: It was shop and we at that point we were
Speaker 2: able to go in and students on our own and
Speaker 2: we'd go to the collection and we could handle things
Speaker 2: and it was just it was it was, it was unreal.
Speaker 2: Actually went Frank Leevey was leave Antiques, was a year
Speaker 2: behind me, and he and I would go into the
Speaker 2: question together and uh we'd take opposite views of something.
Speaker 2: I'd say it's right and he'd say it's wrong, and
Speaker 2: so we'd try to prove each other.
Speaker 1: It was that sounds fun.
Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. And Bob and Bob Trent,
Speaker 2: Robert Trent was there at the time, and he's genius,
Speaker 2: a genius, and uh so it was really wonderful to
Speaker 2: go through and learn from from Bob as well.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's the thing about learning and passing down
Speaker 1: all that and I, you know, write everything's online now.
Speaker 1: It's so you know, I tell people learn, go talk
Speaker 1: to people if you can, you know, right.
Speaker 2: And people people, you know, it's it's it is a concern,
Speaker 2: you know, who's who's learning you know, for the next generation,
Speaker 2: who's teaching for the next generation? Where are people learning information?
Speaker 2: I mean, what are to of course still still there.
Speaker 2: When I was there, I asked such a classes and
Speaker 2: the conservation departments that I could, you know, see that
Speaker 2: side of it. And then when I was at Christie's
Speaker 2: I'd hang out with Alan Miller, the cabinet maker, and
Speaker 2: just you know, he'd show me about tool marks and
Speaker 2: we talk about you know, all sorts of things that
Speaker 2: we'd see there. So uh, I mean you have to ask.
Speaker 2: You need mentors, you know, going through life, whatever you
Speaker 2: whatever you do, having people that you can trust and
Speaker 2: that want to teach you and that are and want
Speaker 2: to share so that others learn. I mean there's some
Speaker 2: people that are like, oh, no, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: tell you anything. That's right.
Speaker 1: They think that their knowledge is power and the.
Speaker 2: Best, right, the best, uh, the best thing you can
Speaker 2: do is to share, because that's how things, that's how things,
Speaker 2: that's how you learn things. And I look at the
Speaker 2: early books Vincent Lockwood and Wallace Nun and people will
Speaker 2: go oh pooh, pooh pooh. No, somebody had to be
Speaker 2: out there first, yeah, you know, and look at the
Speaker 2: contributions they made and then others built on that, you know,
Speaker 2: and so it has has has been proven and others
Speaker 2: are like, yeah, what a great example. You know, so
Speaker 2: it's appreciating. But again it's that knowledge and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: having people who really know what they're looking at it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I hope you hope it continues.
Speaker 1: I know, I wish you could download someone's brain sometimes and.
Speaker 2: Some of that I think about several people, you know,
Speaker 2: a number of people. I know. It's like I wish
Speaker 2: there was like like a download button. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: it's really great. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So getting back to the influences, it just made me
Speaker 1: think of someone in particular. And I'm wondering if you
Speaker 1: even know the answer to this question. But you think
Speaker 1: of like an American eighteenth century cabinet maker that had
Speaker 1: his own, you know, design, And I think of Duncan
Speaker 1: Fife for instance, And I wonder if Duncan Fife ever
Speaker 1: influenced anyone in England to you know, design like him,
Speaker 1: because you do see the well a lot of times
Speaker 1: they're they're you know, George the third uh they call him,
Speaker 1: you know, a double pedestal bait tables that do have
Speaker 1: a similarity to Duncan Fife's design. But but I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that ever went that.
Speaker 2: Way, I would I would think more came over here.
Speaker 2: But again I'm not a five expert, so I wouldn't
Speaker 2: dare to make a proclamation in one way or the other.
Speaker 2: But I would I would tend to think that. Uh,
Speaker 2: I mean on Lanue also, I mean he was from
Speaker 2: the French perspective. He was also bringing designer over here.
Speaker 2: Yeah that I I as far as Fife. I mean
Speaker 2: I know I know his work, but I wouldn't be
Speaker 2: able to I don't know historically transfer and that's a
Speaker 2: time that's a little later than my specialty. And it's
Speaker 2: also in New York, which again isn't mine Wick but
Speaker 2: uh yeah, I mean the whole transfer and sharing of
Speaker 2: information and people. I actually taught a class out the
Speaker 2: Rizzy Road Doland School of Design years ago and I
Speaker 2: was I was Cheryl Robertson who was teaching the class
Speaker 2: would take me sabbatical chase, but I go in for her.
Speaker 2: So it was a history for Ensure class. And so
Speaker 2: you start with the Egypt Police. That's where I started
Speaker 2: and went you know to today and a lot to cover,
Speaker 2: no question, and uh these were these these students again
Speaker 2: no offense to students whosy, but uh, they had an attitude.
Speaker 2: It was a required course and they they felt that
Speaker 2: they knew everything and they just wanted to but they
Speaker 2: wanted to make And so as I do, las to
Speaker 2: teach also at the Boston Architicial Center which is now
Speaker 2: the Boston College, and that was different. Those were people
Speaker 2: who wanted to take the class. It was, you know,
Speaker 2: after ed whatever that's called actor, you know, continuing it,
Speaker 2: and so they wanted to be there. So it was
Speaker 2: a quite different. But I mean, so i'd go around,
Speaker 2: I'd ask you know what, what what are your interests?
Speaker 2: What do you want to get out of the class,
Speaker 2: blah blah, and they were all like, you know, they
Speaker 2: have the hats halfway down and uh, I said, well,
Speaker 2: I only care you want one kid said a students said, well,
Speaker 2: I only care about, you know, contemporary stuff. I said, well,
Speaker 2: we're getting to monitoring contemporary the last two classes, and
Speaker 2: before that you'll get an be able to see the
Speaker 2: context of where that came from, it that or center.
Speaker 2: He's like, well, I don't care about modern contemporary. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, those are the last two class and
Speaker 2: I kind of repeated myself and he said and he
Speaker 2: said to me, well, then those are the only classes
Speaker 2: I'm going to come to. And I said, and I said,
Speaker 2: then you're going to fail the course next But it
Speaker 2: was that attitude of I don't need to know anything else,
Speaker 2: which is total. I mean, I hope learned since then
Speaker 2: that context within anything, regardless of what you're talking about,
Speaker 2: is critical to understanding and if you're going to look
Speaker 2: at again design, what came before it. It's like anything.
Speaker 2: It's like history. You know, history, you know, repeats itself.
Speaker 2: Whether you want to accept that or not, it does.
Speaker 2: I'm the same exactly ways, but the same concepts, and
Speaker 2: so do design and so yeah, I mean everybody is
Speaker 2: sharing from everybody else, well, learning from everybody else and
Speaker 2: interpreting in their own putting their own swing on it.
Speaker 2: That's why even somebody who comes from England in the
Speaker 2: seventeenth century, you know, who makes this piece of furniture,
Speaker 2: He's going to introduce something locally, you know, the local
Speaker 2: craftsman is oh I saw. Because creative people they're always looking,
Speaker 2: you know, they're creative, and so they're always looking for
Speaker 2: new inspiration and the nature nature or you know what
Speaker 2: a competitors doing.
Speaker 1: Right, right, And yeah, I love that, and I do
Speaker 1: think it's very very important. You know, we have to
Speaker 1: pass the torch. And here's a you know, just a
Speaker 1: couple of thoughts on that, you know, I mean, we're
Speaker 1: only caregivers to what we have here just for the
Speaker 1: time we're here. And you know, I mean it's important
Speaker 1: that these things get passed on and good hands, caring hands,
Speaker 1: and I do have some fear of that. But I
Speaker 1: also I heard someone's perspective on why there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of separation and the way it used to be,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of truth to it.
Speaker 1: And I'm just going to run it by you what
Speaker 1: this person told me. He basically used a Limos chocolate set.
Speaker 1: Let's just say, you know, it became in the seventies
Speaker 1: and eighties, all of a sudden, it became collectible and costly.
Speaker 1: But the reason it became collectible is because the person
Speaker 1: at the time remembered their grandmother serving them hot cocoa
Speaker 1: through this chocolate set. And now it's put in a cabinet,
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's expensive, you can't touch it, and
Speaker 1: so it loses that connection, the family connection and the
Speaker 1: ephemeral connection at the time when you're a child to
Speaker 1: look back to. So now the old saying, if it
Speaker 1: loses its story, it loses its value, you know, that
Speaker 1: type of thing. So so what do you think about that?
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think. And we also were in
Speaker 1: a place right now we click on something used to
Speaker 1: be where you had all these stories. I still have stories.
Speaker 1: I go to Facebook marketplace. I got this Spanish circle
Speaker 1: of old Master painting, you know, through Facebook. Terrible frame,
Speaker 1: I know, but anyway, so but I love the chase,
Speaker 1: and I think that's gone a lot when all you
Speaker 1: have to do is click on something and you're not,
Speaker 1: you know, running it down.
Speaker 2: I think in a lot of ways people are lacking
Speaker 2: in patience and because everything is just instant, Yeah, they
Speaker 2: can get it, so they don't want to take they
Speaker 2: don't want to wait, they don't want to wait, they
Speaker 2: aren't now, and I think that that's kind of a
Speaker 2: lost I'll call it an art and I'm not I'm
Speaker 2: not saying that it doesn't happen to me too, but
Speaker 2: I try to try to keep that in mind, that
Speaker 2: we appreciate, appreciate the process. We have third graders come
Speaker 2: through the museum every spring. That's pretty soon and one
Speaker 2: of the one of the sessions we have we have
Speaker 2: three different stations, and one of which is which is
Speaker 2: when I run. It's it's the then and now, and
Speaker 2: it's giving them opportunity to handle. Uh, you know, original material,
Speaker 2: even if it's the nineteen sixties. You know telephone dialogue,
Speaker 2: you know, wrot telephone. Uh. And I make the connection
Speaker 2: with the phone, and we start with the candlestick phone.
Speaker 2: We kind of work up and then with a start
Speaker 2: with a oh, I'm blank on the name of this stereograph.
Speaker 1: Yeah, put the.
Speaker 2: Cards in your eyes come together and you see the
Speaker 2: three image of three D and so I you start
Speaker 2: with those to those things and that can I work
Speaker 2: up to the president I merge them in an iPhone
Speaker 2: of to day. You know it has both so three
Speaker 2: D three D you know when you go to movie
Speaker 2: next and have three D glasses, think of this, but
Speaker 2: also the whole concept of the visual, the photographs and
Speaker 2: the and the phone with you phone. Uh so again
Speaker 2: but but and we also talk about we also have
Speaker 2: several cannibals. I talk about candle making and you know
Speaker 2: spoons that you know somebody obviously card on our own.
Speaker 2: The other one they bought from you know, a store
Speaker 2: from the you know, nineteenth or the twentieth century, and
Speaker 2: just talking about the process and how long things took.
Speaker 2: You couldn't just run this, you know a store and
Speaker 2: buy something you had to you know, you barred for,
Speaker 2: you made it, you you know whatever. And again it's
Speaker 2: that that patience and appreciation that things took time, they
Speaker 2: weren't instant and instantaneous. And that is something I think
Speaker 2: it's important to remind students about because they they don't
Speaker 2: know because everything is so instant. Wow, I want to
Speaker 2: ask I want something, to run to the store and
Speaker 2: get it, or I want order.
Speaker 1: Or Amazon it's here tomorrow whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I think that's something which with history,
Speaker 2: I think again taking a step back and appreciation is important,
Speaker 2: take a step back and appreciating, uh, things from the past,
Speaker 2: and uh that includes you know, using things from the past.
Speaker 2: Just that chest of drawers, open that every time and
Speaker 2: smell that great wood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're amazing to be used.
Speaker 2: And glass and suramester a little more iffy because they
Speaker 2: can break, but same token. There's so many sets of
Speaker 2: china out there now that you know you wouldn't want
Speaker 2: to break it, but you know, yeah, so you use it,
Speaker 2: appreciate it, be careful hand washing it, you know, break it,
Speaker 2: dropping the sink. But I think I think things as
Speaker 2: you say that the stories are what make an object important,
Speaker 2: even though, if you're going to go back to the
Speaker 2: auctions or dealers, you know, if you're just because George
Speaker 2: Washington sat in a chair doesn't make it a great
Speaker 2: looking chair. It could still be an ugly chair. And
Speaker 2: so just because you have that provenance doesn't mean it's
Speaker 2: going to sell for a lot of money. But it's
Speaker 2: nice story, So there's still a story connected to it,
Speaker 2: even if it's not worth a lot of money. So
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to work a lot of money to
Speaker 2: have a story. It can be a little trinket. I
Speaker 2: can have a fun story about my grandmother or grandfather
Speaker 2: or a cousin whatever, a golant uh you know, brought
Speaker 2: this from X y Z time or they made this
Speaker 2: or they played with this or whatever. It just makes it.
Speaker 2: The life is stories. That's what our lives are. That's
Speaker 2: what a museum does. They tell stories and their their
Speaker 2: history based of course, but it's the stories of people's lives,
Speaker 2: and a lot people's lives don't really the basic needs
Speaker 2: don't the basic needs don't change, and the situations don't
Speaker 2: really change on the broad scrip of things. But it's
Speaker 2: again those stories and what they you know, how their
Speaker 2: life was when you know, within the automobiles or whatever
Speaker 2: happens to be. I mean, uh, it's those stories that
Speaker 2: make make history so so interesting. It's so much fun
Speaker 2: and so relevant to our lives, you know today. And
Speaker 2: that's why if you're going to do history, you've got
Speaker 2: to be a storyteller. If you're gonna do if you're
Speaker 2: gonna sell you know, antiques, it's being a storyteller adds
Speaker 2: a lot to it. And it's like it's, you know,
Speaker 2: we all want to sit and listen to a good storyteller.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: My brother, my younger brother, is an amazing storyteller. I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't he has the you know, the personality,
Speaker 2: just tells great stories. I'm not in the same category
Speaker 2: more like, and this happened then and I still you
Speaker 2: know whatever, But it's still the stories right around. That's
Speaker 2: what we've enjoyed. We go to family dinner, we tell stories.
Speaker 2: You know. I was just a love hearing my uncle
Speaker 2: you know, tell stories about you know, X y Z.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's all the human connection. Yeah, I got
Speaker 1: to tell you the funny story that happened to me.
Speaker 1: I was out and when I was in California. It's
Speaker 1: a Walnut Creek. It's an area, and that I was
Speaker 1: at a garden club and doing an appraisal clinic for
Speaker 1: a benefit for the garden club. And there was a
Speaker 1: big line, and and they knew I was like the
Speaker 1: old antique type of guy, like I could do like
Speaker 1: the real antiques and then they'd have like the Martyr.
Speaker 1: And then so this woman came up to me and
Speaker 1: she says, there's a woman standing back in the back
Speaker 1: of the line, but I want to bring her right
Speaker 1: up to you because she has an eagle that belonged
Speaker 1: to George Washington. And so I'm kind of like chuckling,
Speaker 1: and I said, okay, all right. So so she comes,
Speaker 1: they bring up to the front of the line, and
Speaker 1: she unwraps this thing very carefully whatever and she puts
Speaker 1: out the most beautiful bellamy two foot eagle you could imagine.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, I got good news and bad
Speaker 1: news for you. I said, first of all, George Washington
Speaker 1: was dead for about one hundred and fifty years when
Speaker 1: this thing was carved. And but it was her family history,
Speaker 1: you know, you know how that can happen, like it
Speaker 1: came down through like George Washington might have stayed at
Speaker 1: their house one time or in their family or something whatever.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I said, you still have a very valuable
Speaker 1: eagle made in Kittery Point, Maine. And you know, I
Speaker 1: mean it was just it was really funny. But you
Speaker 1: hear these I love the stories, even though they're wrong.
Speaker 1: Here when people have these.
Speaker 2: Type of and sometimes it crushes there there them. But
Speaker 2: at the same token, it's the stories are George Haley
Speaker 2: Bellamy he was It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, John yep, yep. So anyway, this is uh, and
Speaker 1: were you involved? Now I may have this wrong, but
Speaker 1: were you involved when they found his tools?
Speaker 2: I was involved? Did you say involved? I was? It
Speaker 2: was the same the course with a Porson of historical society.
Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, And it had something to do did have
Speaker 1: anything to do with Frost A gentleman named Frost.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Frost, Yeah, rememorish. I'd totally forgotten about that. I
Speaker 2: remember seeing his tools in the in the second floor
Speaker 2: of the Historical at the time. Uh, And isn't this cool?
Speaker 1: Yeah, my dad had something to do with that years ago.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm trying to think when was that it
Speaker 2: was it was in that same general time frame or
Speaker 2: I was wrapping up things of rock in my thesis.
Speaker 2: It was all kind of the same time as I
Speaker 2: as I recall, that was pretty nifty. That was nifty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that just for the listener, And that's just
Speaker 1: it's a real famous John Haley Bellamy, a very famous
Speaker 1: eagle carver. Uh start out the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, carving
Speaker 1: eagles there and carving other things to uh you know,
Speaker 1: uh bowsprits and things like that and and uh trans
Speaker 1: on boards and things. But I mean he was just
Speaker 1: an amazing carver, had his own style of eagle and
Speaker 1: it became very popular. And there's all kinds of very
Speaker 1: colorful person I did a I did a podcast. You
Speaker 1: can check back on this podcast. I did a podcast
Speaker 1: about that carver. I'm trying to remember the gentleman that
Speaker 1: put the book together. Oh yes, I just can't think
Speaker 1: of I can't. But anyway, Jim, Jim, there was.
Speaker 2: There was a and he was you know, he also
Speaker 2: number of things in Portsmate in the Traderal House for
Speaker 2: Ron Borgeaux used to have his auction yeah building, I
Speaker 2: believe it's now condos. The huge reproduction bell on the
Speaker 2: ego was on the front of that if anybody remembers
Speaker 2: the banners above the eagle's head and saying live for
Speaker 2: or die and all sorts of different things. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: also made them. Also made them shelves, you know, the
Speaker 2: that would have Masonic.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he made the shelves. He made the picture
Speaker 1: frames that George Boston used to paint paintings on. He
Speaker 1: made deer heads, He did all kinds of Yeah, he
Speaker 1: did all kinds of things. I've had a bunch of
Speaker 1: them over the years. But well, anyway, it's been such
Speaker 1: a pleasure to talk to you again. I don't know
Speaker 1: if he really made any progress here the state of
Speaker 1: antiques today, but it's uh, well, I.
Speaker 2: Think, I think, I think quickly. The one of the
Speaker 2: things that is a challenge that history isn't being taught
Speaker 2: the same way it was once taught in schools with
Speaker 2: all those standardized testing. You have, you know, math of sciences,
Speaker 2: but the arts, the arts and you know, his history,
Speaker 2: Civics just not taught it anymore. So if they're not
Speaker 2: in the same way with the same emphasis because of
Speaker 2: the standardized testing and the need to you know, for
Speaker 2: schools to rank, et cetera, so students aren't getting they're
Speaker 2: not learning the history that they should be learning. And
Speaker 2: so therefore, if you're not learning something, how can you
Speaker 2: be aware of it? So and it's like anything cultural,
Speaker 2: be it, you know, museums, symphony, ballet. If you're not
Speaker 2: being exposed to it, you're not going to know, and
Speaker 2: therefore you're not going to care. And that is a
Speaker 2: very serious issue with culture in general. If you don't know,
Speaker 2: then you're not going to care. So that's that's a
Speaker 2: that's why I love having you know, school kids come
Speaker 2: in here, you get you you like that sparking. You
Speaker 2: never know what it is that you're going to like
Speaker 2: that spark if they go to an option, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever it is something you they need. People need to
Speaker 2: be exposed and to to history, to culture because it's important.
Speaker 2: It makes us, It makes us a richer person, you know,
Speaker 2: having that, I mean having that exposure. So that's that's
Speaker 2: that's a really really important issue that I don't have
Speaker 2: an answer for other than figure out a way to
Speaker 2: get history back into schools and part of the curriculum.
Speaker 2: More so, younger people are exposed to it, so there
Speaker 2: is that interest. Otherwise it's just you know, they're going
Speaker 2: to fall into it. They're going to you know, some
Speaker 2: one way or the other. But it's it's more difficult,
Speaker 2: more challenging to to get younger people aware. So that's
Speaker 2: that's something which which I'm I would love to see
Speaker 2: more more focus on.
Speaker 1: I have when I have run into like at appraisal
Speaker 1: clinics and things like that, there's actually kids that are interested.
Speaker 1: I always ask them, Hey, how did you get you know,
Speaker 1: interested in a lot of times, Oh, I watch you know,
Speaker 1: uh shop for you know, American pickers or and one
Speaker 1: kid said, I love the antiques roadshow. I go really,
Speaker 1: I said, oh, that's so awesome, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: so it's good that at least you know that that's
Speaker 1: out there. That's good exposure.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: But I love the hands on. I think the hands
Speaker 1: on is so important, you know. I mean you think
Speaker 1: of if if I never had the hands on, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have had interest in this, you know.
Speaker 2: If I had not taken a class by John Kirk,
Speaker 2: who was furniture historian the Importunitius furniture collector of the
Speaker 2: Importunitia's house collector, et cetera, house restorer, et cetera, I
Speaker 2: would not have known there was a field to study furniture.
Speaker 2: I would have had no idea. I was an art
Speaker 2: history major. They don't, I mean, our history classes, they
Speaker 2: really need to introduce furniture, reductive arts because art doesn't
Speaker 2: hang on a wall by itself in space. They're usually
Speaker 2: architecture classes that they don't teach decorative our furnature classes.
Speaker 2: And I was very fortunate there was a program an
Speaker 2: artistry artistanery also at BEU at the time where John was,
Speaker 2: and he taught us one semester to semester class on
Speaker 2: the history of furniture, and the p I A kids
Speaker 2: were there too, so I got the people making the
Speaker 2: stuff and I got him talking about the stuff, and
Speaker 2: it just lit the spark. I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: Again it was that exposure, that opportunity, and it changed
Speaker 2: my trajectory entirely to that was that that Again, it's
Speaker 2: about the opportunity and so regardless of how you find it,
Speaker 2: but the you know, the more exposure to classes or
Speaker 2: TV shows, stars or whatever, pond stars, yeah, pickers, America, pickers, whatever,
Speaker 2: they're they're important.
Speaker 1: Right right, Well, thanks so much. You're such a positive
Speaker 1: thing to the antiques world.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm that and I'm tangential at this point and
Speaker 2: it's a very but still it's it's uh, it's it's
Speaker 2: about getting people involved in families also, people of all ages,
Speaker 2: you know, into the museum for different programs and and
Speaker 2: and connecting them with how fun history is. And we
Speaker 2: have one of the most important archives in New England.
Speaker 2: It's incredible. It goes back in sixteen thirties and you
Speaker 2: just go down these rabbit holes, you know. It's it's
Speaker 2: so many layers. It's just fascinating. So history is a
Speaker 2: great thing, it really is. Yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I've been looking at reading a book on Dutch Manhattan
Speaker 1: and boy is that really interesting? Really interesting? How that
Speaker 1: I'll start it. But anyway, thank you so much. A
Speaker 1: real pleasure is always to talk to you.
Speaker 2: I hope to see you before ten other ten years.
Speaker 1: That's right, Okay, take care of right.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Maron