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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>A quick note before the show, I want to thank

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<v Speaker 2>the listeners who've decided to support us on Patreon. We've

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<v Speaker 2>crossed the one hundred supporter mark and that's awesome, and

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<v Speaker 2>karenin and I thank you very much. Your support really

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<v Speaker 2>helps us a lot. If we could get to five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred supporters at a dollar a show, it would absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>transform our lives. But we're humbled by any support and

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate all of it. But if you love what we

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<v Speaker 2>or your favorite podcast service. It really helps us out. Thanks.

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<v Speaker 2>Every ghost story has two ingredients, a ghost and a story.

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<v Speaker 2>In Edinburgh, Scotland, there's a graveyard that has piled up

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<v Speaker 2>stories for nearly twenty years of people experiencing odd things

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<v Speaker 2>and receiving mysterious injuries. The locations known as the Greyfriars Kirkyard,

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<v Speaker 2>and the ghost has been called the Mackenzie Poultrygeist, though

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<v Speaker 2>it bears little resemblance to the Poultrygeist's common to parapsychology

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<v Speaker 2>people tour in the kirkyard, a reported receiving strange cuts

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<v Speaker 2>and bruises and experiencing many strange phenomena. So bundle up

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<v Speaker 2>in your warm clothes and get ready to walk around

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<v Speaker 2>in the foggy, cold and damp looking for ghosts in

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<v Speaker 2>the kirkyard. It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 3>A giant hairy creature park Ape Park mat in Luckness,

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<v Speaker 3>a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the

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<v Speaker 3>Highlands of Scotland, in a creature known as the Luckness Monster.

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<v Speaker 2>Monsttal Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.

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<v Speaker 2>In this episode, we'll be talking with Fred Fogerty, one

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<v Speaker 2>of the tour guides for City of the Dead tours

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<v Speaker 2>in Edinburgh. Fred was kind enough to talk with some

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<v Speaker 2>very short notice and we had a wonderful time chatting

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<v Speaker 2>with him. I think you'll find he's quite a storyteller.

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<v Speaker 2>I suspect his tours would be a lot of fun.

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<v Speaker 2>We did have more questions than we had time for us.

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<v Speaker 2>We've continued our conversations via email after this chat, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'll talk about that after the interview. Karen and I

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<v Speaker 2>live a bit too far away to go investigate this

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<v Speaker 2>case ourselves, but perhaps some of our listeners will be

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<v Speaker 2>intrigued and go have a look. I think there's some

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<v Speaker 2>interesting aspects to this story to have a look at,

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<v Speaker 2>some on the ground and probably some in the library Monstertal. So, hey, Fred,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't really know much about you, so this is

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<v Speaker 2>all really quick, and we really appreciate your promptness in

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<v Speaker 2>joining us and making time for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Could you give us a little bit of an intro

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<v Speaker 2>for yourself, like who are you? Like a bio.

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<v Speaker 5>Written down somewhere, but essentially.

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<v Speaker 6>I can read it true your life, But essentially I

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<v Speaker 6>work for a City of the Dead tours in Edinburgh

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<v Speaker 6>in Scotland. We take tours into two quite remarkable locations,

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<v Speaker 6>the first being the Comminats Prison, steeped in history, it's

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<v Speaker 6>so important for Scottish history, and most importantly into the

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<v Speaker 6>Black Mausoleum and we learn more about the Mackenzie poltergeist.

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<v Speaker 6>That's fascinating phenomenon that for that, since nineteen ninety eight,

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<v Speaker 6>has been known to violently and physically assort people in

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<v Speaker 6>and around the Airy Graveyard. We also go into the

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<v Speaker 6>south Bridge Vaults, part of Edinburgh's underground city, and we

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<v Speaker 6>go into the southernmost section, is fairly undisturbed, one of

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<v Speaker 6>the least least refurbished portions, and go on about the

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<v Speaker 6>south Bridge entity and it's relevant.

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<v Speaker 5>There's various guises.

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<v Speaker 6>I have been doing that for over a decade, particularly

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<v Speaker 6>with regards to the graveyard.

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<v Speaker 5>Having a wonderful time.

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<v Speaker 6>I've got quite an eclectic history of various things. I

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<v Speaker 6>worked as a professional breakdown ser I've worked as a

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<v Speaker 6>welfare advisor.

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<v Speaker 5>I also work as a hypnotherapist.

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<v Speaker 6>And that's the reason why I'm in Chicago at the

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<v Speaker 6>moment and a similar time zone to yourself, studying with

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<v Speaker 6>my friend and mentor learning about other than conscious communication

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<v Speaker 6>and not psychology.

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<v Speaker 5>So all of these things, what else is there to say?

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, Alison, whom you spoke with recently, describes me as

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<v Speaker 6>a colorful freak.

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<v Speaker 5>It's just probably accurate.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you sound like you're going to be a really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting discussion here. You're going to bring us a very

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<v Speaker 2>interesting discussion, So that's awesome. So she also described you

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<v Speaker 2>as a fairly skeptical person. So but maybe that's not

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<v Speaker 2>how you view yourself? Where do you feel about like?

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<v Speaker 2>I guess you'll talk about this as you go along,

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<v Speaker 2>but how do you feel about her? These? Like what?

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<v Speaker 2>I guess maybe what's the most compelling sort of paranormal

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<v Speaker 2>things you've run into?

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<v Speaker 6>So like it comes across a broad range of things.

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<v Speaker 6>To be honest with you, Blake, I've either myself have

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<v Speaker 6>walked out of this particular portion of the graveyard with

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<v Speaker 6>three fairly deep gouges across my chest in a very

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<v Speaker 6>typical pattern, and that after maybe seven years or so,

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<v Speaker 6>six years of doing the tours, I felt nothing at

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<v Speaker 6>the time.

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<v Speaker 5>It's very common.

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<v Speaker 6>I've experienced things where someone on my tour has seen

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<v Speaker 6>something described to me what they've seen, and later on

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<v Speaker 6>I've discovered that a friend of a friend and didn't

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<v Speaker 6>make it to a particular portion of a tour because

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<v Speaker 6>she saw, in her words, very very closely matched what

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<v Speaker 6>this other person was describing, but from a different angle

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<v Speaker 6>at a different place. And these two stories linked up

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<v Speaker 6>so elegantly, like two cogs in a perfect machine.

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<v Speaker 5>Uncanny. Yeah, I've walked out of them.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, my first tour inside of his place, I experienced

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<v Speaker 6>what people are supposed to describe as cold spots. But

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<v Speaker 6>for me, it's not about the typical dropping temperature that

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<v Speaker 6>people often describe. For me, it is more like an internal,

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<v Speaker 6>like a visceral experience, like a like a real intense discomfort,

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<v Speaker 6>like the kind of experience you might get it well

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<v Speaker 6>from me personally, when I've walked into a place where

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<v Speaker 6>a room or met somebody and absolutely did not feel safe.

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<v Speaker 6>And it was my first ever tour, and I had

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<v Speaker 6>eight customers with me, and the eight of us left

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<v Speaker 6>only five minutes into a fifteen minute section of the

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<v Speaker 6>tour in that particular location because we could not stand

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<v Speaker 6>the experience.

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<v Speaker 5>And yeah, no, we just left.

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<v Speaker 6>We didn't do the scary stuff in there at all.

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<v Speaker 6>That we didn't even get much into the scary stuff.

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<v Speaker 5>We left.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, if you felt scared, you you didn't really need to, right, Yeah, indeed.

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<v Speaker 5>So it's just it's just really weird.

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<v Speaker 6>I mean, yeah, these things for me are fascinating. But

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<v Speaker 6>if you're interested, asked me the question about I miskeptic,

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<v Speaker 6>what does that mean? Later on with my experiences, I'm

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<v Speaker 6>very happy to talk about it until until you respalled off.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, well we'll get to it. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>you fit on a lot of topics that are going

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<v Speaker 2>to be delved into deeper as we get into our question.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, I thought we'd start We'll go back

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<v Speaker 1>to the beginning and talk about grief ries kirkyard in general.

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<v Speaker 1>So kirkyard that's a Scottish term for churchyard exactly.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, we just used the woman in Scotts We've got

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<v Speaker 6>kirk instead of church.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh. Oh, I had a question to follow up question

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<v Speaker 2>and I forgot to ask, which was how do you

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<v Speaker 2>determine a cold spot when you're in Scotland? That was

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<v Speaker 2>my joke I forgot. Oh, very good point.

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<v Speaker 6>We run a we run a similar joke. Do you

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<v Speaker 6>feel do you feel like a really cold sense in

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<v Speaker 6>your ankles? It just really gets the set in from

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<v Speaker 6>the skin starts to get deeper and deeper, and you

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<v Speaker 6>start to get like a flesh like the goose bumps

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<v Speaker 6>at the back of your legs and this discomfort that

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<v Speaker 6>works its way up your your leg, up your calf right.

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<v Speaker 5>What we call that it's a very technical term. It's

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<v Speaker 5>a draft.

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<v Speaker 1>And you are a hypnotherapist, not you the way the

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<v Speaker 1>way you were describing it to sound it like a

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<v Speaker 1>hypnotherapy script or something. So grayfries Cookyard. It's got a

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<v Speaker 1>very long history. But can you give us an overview

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<v Speaker 1>or if it's past.

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<v Speaker 5>Sure, very very brief.

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<v Speaker 6>Gray Friskyard is an extraordinary piece of Edinburgh itself. It

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<v Speaker 6>sits in the southwestern corner of what used to be

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<v Speaker 6>the Old Town and one of our very important structures

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<v Speaker 6>runs along the western side of it, and in fact

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<v Speaker 6>bisects the graveyard. Well it divides it up, and that

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<v Speaker 6>is the flood in the wall. Now, the graveyard itself

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<v Speaker 6>was we began use primarily as an important place of

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<v Speaker 6>burial for the Gray Friars. I think there were Franciscan

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<v Speaker 6>months months at the time, and that was in the

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<v Speaker 6>early sixteen hundreds. Various other portions of the graveyard were

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<v Speaker 6>donated to the church to be used as burial grounds,

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<v Speaker 6>and the Covenant's Prison, which sits to the southernmost point

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<v Speaker 6>of the graveyard and juts out quite prominently, was the last.

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<v Speaker 5>Piece of ground given to the graveyard for burial. Prior

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<v Speaker 5>to that, it had been used, as a name suggests,

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<v Speaker 5>as a prison for these people known as the Cobinators,

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<v Speaker 5>and they were I mean the history is fascinating.

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<v Speaker 6>It's also absurdly complex, and I hope you'll forgive me

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<v Speaker 6>for this, because I ditched history at the age of fourteen,

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<v Speaker 6>because I couldn't make sense of it, like all this

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<v Speaker 6>stuff about name, date, battle, who one who lost, in

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<v Speaker 6>some other nonsense. I gave up history after I got

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<v Speaker 6>past the Romans and chariots. I enjoyed the Romans, the Egyptians,

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<v Speaker 6>a bit of medieval stuff, and the dinosaurs, and that

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<v Speaker 6>was what I enjoyed.

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<v Speaker 5>So I ditched it as soon as I could.

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<v Speaker 6>And it's only by coming back to this company, this

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<v Speaker 6>City of the Dead Tours, and working really just an

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<v Speaker 6>administration briefly, that I discovered how extraordinary history is when

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<v Speaker 6>when you have these these amazing people by colleagues I

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<v Speaker 6>work with and the people who came before me as well.

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<v Speaker 6>I've just been the most extraordinary storytellers. Now there's a

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<v Speaker 6>script for the tours, no one's really seen it. Everyone

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<v Speaker 6>does their own research the tours. They're they're most extraordinary

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<v Speaker 6>storytellers and amateur historians, and everything about it brings the

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<v Speaker 6>history to life, brings the location to life, and it

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<v Speaker 6>makes it relevant to us right now far as.

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<v Speaker 2>Well human narrative, right, I mean it's about people at

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<v Speaker 2>that point, right, not just dates and names.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, and that's that's a lovely way to describe it.

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<v Speaker 5>I think.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, So I got working there, I discovered much more

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<v Speaker 6>about it.

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<v Speaker 5>It got more into it.

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<v Speaker 6>So what I'm saying is that the history of the

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<v Speaker 6>Cobinanchers themselves, these people who in the Graveyard itself in

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<v Speaker 6>sixteen hundred and thirty seven, right, Charles the First wanted

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<v Speaker 6>to unite the disparate churches being in the Scotland, and

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<v Speaker 6>Scotland would have to change your style and worship in

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<v Speaker 6>the English way, and being forced into the English way

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<v Speaker 6>was I believe a step too close to Catholicism. And

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<v Speaker 6>they absolutely, they just repelled. In sixteen thirty eight they

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<v Speaker 6>drew up a lengthy document entitled locally Colloquially is a

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<v Speaker 6>National Covenant with God in the Graveyard itself the went

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<v Speaker 6>it was a lengthy document. If I butcher it for you,

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<v Speaker 6>it goes along the lines of Charles, You're okay as

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<v Speaker 6>a king, You're not better than God, and we reserve

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<v Speaker 6>the right to worship God any style we see fit.

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<v Speaker 6>I think that's beating want to learn from one of

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<v Speaker 6>my colleagues, my first every tour. But essentially essentially that's

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<v Speaker 6>that's what the relevant portion it comes down there, And

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<v Speaker 6>it was an extraordinary move.

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<v Speaker 5>It really was an extraordinary move.

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<v Speaker 6>This National Covenant that they signed is both I think

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<v Speaker 6>one of like a real early example of the church

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<v Speaker 6>and state being separated in an illegal document. Right, But

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<v Speaker 6>it's also like the ramifications of this thing are far reached,

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<v Speaker 6>so the point where the portions of it, and it

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<v Speaker 6>is possibly subjective, it certainly looks like it to me,

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<v Speaker 6>portions of it were taken nearly rebatum and used as

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<v Speaker 6>a foundation for things like the American Constitution.

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<v Speaker 5>Right. It's the impact that this document has from the

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<v Speaker 5>mid sixteen hundreds that we still feel today. It's extraordinary.

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<v Speaker 6>So we cross some time here, and it's point Charles

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<v Speaker 6>the second is on the throne. The covenantal armies, the

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<v Speaker 6>armies of people who who support this document that's brought

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<v Speaker 6>this this notion.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, for the American audience is how long are

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<v Speaker 2>the terms of office for these kings? How long are

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<v Speaker 2>they elected for.

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<v Speaker 1>Just four years?

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<v Speaker 2>The the the the administration is is as long as

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<v Speaker 2>the king lives, right, So that's or until there's a

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<v Speaker 2>battle right.

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<v Speaker 6>Until they advocate or until I mean, there's a lot

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<v Speaker 6>of politics that goes on with a lot of the

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<v Speaker 6>royals behind the scenes.

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<v Speaker 5>And yeah, like so history is not my strong point.

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<v Speaker 6>There's so much there that you do well to get

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<v Speaker 6>a history and on to talk about it because it is.

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<v Speaker 2>That's okay.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, yeah, long mexxed up story.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's interesting. It is interesting, so keep going.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, where was I? I have no idea A.

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<v Speaker 6>Second, I think, so these these people, what ends up

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<v Speaker 6>being formed is this covenant army is known as people

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<v Speaker 6>who support this, this national Covenant. They end up going

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<v Speaker 6>heading down to England fighting for their rights. There's loads

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<v Speaker 6>more with this. This is really just the butchering of

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<v Speaker 6>the history to get us to where we need to be.

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<v Speaker 6>The armies don't do well, right, they do remarkably well.

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<v Speaker 6>They're given back this very basic right. I mean, the

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<v Speaker 6>notion that there are people can rise up and commit

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<v Speaker 6>treason in essence and that's exactly what it is, and

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<v Speaker 6>do so well that they are given back this very

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<v Speaker 6>basic right and they're permitted to return home. I mean,

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<v Speaker 6>that's that's extraordinary to me, that notion they can all

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<v Speaker 6>commit treason. There's extra pressure placed on the king from

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<v Speaker 6>a rebellion at the same time, and it just essentially

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<v Speaker 6>in essence is okay, whatever you want to leave me alone.

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<v Speaker 6>I would obviously paraphrase for you there because I wasn't there.

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<v Speaker 6>And they return, Sorry that's not accurate. Some of them return,

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<v Speaker 6>but there is still a chance to go on and

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<v Speaker 6>take the flight to the English. I mean, the history

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<v Speaker 6>of England and Scotland has rarely been amicable at best,

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<v Speaker 6>so at this point here the fortunes of the combinations

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<v Speaker 6>change quite rapidly, and eventually there are.

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<v Speaker 5>Only a handful of these people remaining.

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<v Speaker 6>Now depending on where you look, it's either four hundred

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<v Speaker 6>or twelve hundred people.

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<v Speaker 5>They are marched.

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<v Speaker 6>Back up through England into Scotland, allegedly with no shoes

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<v Speaker 6>on their feet, and said it's a long way, right,

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<v Speaker 6>it's not an easy walk either, right, there's no there's

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<v Speaker 6>no nice paths. Marched all the way up, yeah, right,

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<v Speaker 6>and then marched all the way up with shoes their

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<v Speaker 6>feed to Edinburgh. And this man George McKenzie, who is

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<v Speaker 6>at this point the King's advocate, so he's the he

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<v Speaker 6>starts off some readays I keep getting this suse, I

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<v Speaker 6>keep telling people he starts off as a lawyer, that

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<v Speaker 6>starts off life as a lawyer. In fact, he starts

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<v Speaker 6>off as a child. He becomes a lawyer later.

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<v Speaker 1>On lawyers children.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh that's a good.

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<v Speaker 2>Question, pause for laugh. No, that's good, that's good.

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<v Speaker 6>So he he is. So he's a king's representative in Edinburgh. Right,

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<v Speaker 6>And the story of this man is complex as well,

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<v Speaker 6>Like it's it's always easy for us to it as people,

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<v Speaker 6>I guess, as humans, to create an easy narrative to

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<v Speaker 6>explain stuff and to give people an idea of things.

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<v Speaker 5>But in fact I think it's more complex.

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<v Speaker 6>So he is tasked in Charles with the idea of

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<v Speaker 6>creating a statement with these prisoners that is so dramatic.

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<v Speaker 5>That it is so effective that it will stop any

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<v Speaker 5>kind of uprising from happening again.

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<v Speaker 6>Right now, bear in mind, at the time Edinburgh streets

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00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:36.559
<v Speaker 6>are allegedly an inch deep in everyone's sewage, we regularly

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<v Speaker 6>turn to a torture, public humiliation, execution, witch hunting.

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00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:42.360
<v Speaker 5>Hey, like life is cheap.

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<v Speaker 6>The figure that is thrown around is that for a

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00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.759
<v Speaker 6>portion of our history there were I'm not sure if

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00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.600
<v Speaker 6>its ability, but the story goes that are up to sorry,

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00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:54.480
<v Speaker 6>in excess of eighty thousand people at its peak in

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<v Speaker 6>a space that is two thirds of a mile by quarter.

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<v Speaker 6>You can imagine too, like eighty thousand, Like even if

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<v Speaker 6>the number is only slightly accurate, we're still left with

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<v Speaker 6>a staggering number of people in an extraordinarily small portion

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<v Speaker 6>of space, living in the kind of poverty, not poverty,

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<v Speaker 6>and well, poverty exists there as well, as we'll get into,

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00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:17.759
<v Speaker 6>perhaps in the South Bridge boards.

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<v Speaker 2>Being treated only marginally better than passengers on an airline

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<v Speaker 2>these days.

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<v Speaker 5>Or.

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00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.240
<v Speaker 6>Being dragged down the aisle broken nose and concussion of

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<v Speaker 6>whatever happened. Yeah, as I give you an idea of

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<v Speaker 6>just how far this has to go in order to

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<v Speaker 6>to create a statement that will.

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<v Speaker 2>To stick out in this crowd as a bad guy

325
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<v Speaker 2>making things bad for people, you got to be bad

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<v Speaker 2>at least, or.

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<v Speaker 6>At least just the statement of what happens if you

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<v Speaker 6>commit I mean, that's the standout part.

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<v Speaker 5>To give you some idea of.

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<v Speaker 6>Like, this is more complex, right, So it's easy. It's

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<v Speaker 6>easy for us to vilify George McKenzie, and it is

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<v Speaker 6>absolutely worth remembering the one man's terrorist is another man's champion.

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<v Speaker 5>That's true, right, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 6>So according went to I haven't done it for search

335
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.160
<v Speaker 6>myself is what I get from a colleague of mine.

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00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:11.759
<v Speaker 6>He points out that George McKenzie wrote early treatises, and

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<v Speaker 6>bear in mind this is we're going back to the

338
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.960
<v Speaker 6>late sixteen hundreds, right, so this is really really progressive.

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<v Speaker 6>George mackenzie writes early Treatises on the notion that because

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00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:25.119
<v Speaker 6>essentially just opposite the cominators, prison used to be like

341
00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:26.880
<v Speaker 6>a bedlo play, a bedloin place, a place for people

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00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.400
<v Speaker 6>who are mentally ill, for people who are committing crime stuff.

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<v Speaker 6>At this they we we at various stages. It transformed

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<v Speaker 6>it's face into various things over there. So like at

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00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:42.920
<v Speaker 6>the time, prevailing notion was if you were in these places,

346
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.240
<v Speaker 6>it was because that was essentially your destiny, right, that's

347
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:46.160
<v Speaker 6>the kind of person you were.

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00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:48.559
<v Speaker 5>And people born into poverty are there because they're.

349
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.119
<v Speaker 6>Because they're worth nothing, right, they're they're they're mentally deficient whatever,

350
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.440
<v Speaker 6>they're not as they're not as smart, they're not as godly,

351
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:58.440
<v Speaker 6>they're not as wonderful as as the people in the

352
00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:03.319
<v Speaker 6>upper classes. And here is this exactly right, And here

353
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.599
<v Speaker 6>is this man, who is this person who is writing

354
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<v Speaker 6>a treatise at the time from position of authority so

355
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<v Speaker 6>extrawdinary authority in the capital city, suggesting the notion and

356
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<v Speaker 6>I'm not just positing it but actually doing the best

357
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<v Speaker 6>to fight its corner that if you ended up, say,

358
00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:27.640
<v Speaker 6>like criminals, things like this, maybe they're there as a

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<v Speaker 6>product of society, of their upbringing, of the choices presented

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<v Speaker 6>to them, and they could be educated out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>The nature versus never progressive.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, exactly, right through the late sixteen hundreds. That

363
00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:45.000
<v Speaker 6>is mind blowing. And yet this same man is also

364
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<v Speaker 6>in a position where he is left with these the

365
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:50.960
<v Speaker 6>four hundred and twelve hundred people, he will committed treason,

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<v Speaker 6>and regardless of how he feels about it, regardless of

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<v Speaker 6>how much we have vilified him in following years. He

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<v Speaker 6>took his twelve hundred people of Point, people who were

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<v Speaker 6>essentially here, rose to the locals and to much of Scotland,

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00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.880
<v Speaker 6>and he's got to make a spectacle of them that

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<v Speaker 6>will deter any and all treason or substitute all the

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<v Speaker 6>rest of his stuff in perpetuity. In a world, in

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<v Speaker 6>a place, in a tiny city where we regularly turn

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<v Speaker 6>our thoughts to a whole bunch of cruel, dramatic, bloodthirsty

375
00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:26.759
<v Speaker 6>things living inches deep in sewage. Right, this is this

376
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.839
<v Speaker 6>is what he's going to contend with. So this man

377
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:35.519
<v Speaker 6>he comes, he takes these people, and he places him

378
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<v Speaker 6>in the space at the back of the graveyard. And

379
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.960
<v Speaker 6>it's not consecrated, it's not burial ground at this point.

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<v Speaker 6>It's the last piece to be given to the to

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<v Speaker 6>the graveyard. After this he lines him up. Now the

382
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.160
<v Speaker 6>space of it. Let me think how far it might be.

383
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.759
<v Speaker 6>Describe to you. I'm rubbish to estimate in distance. Let's

384
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.720
<v Speaker 6>say it is. Let's say it to a couple of

385
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.039
<v Speaker 6>hundred feet, Okay, I suspect the information is there online

386
00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:00.319
<v Speaker 6>as part of the graveyard's documents.

387
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:03.079
<v Speaker 5>These days.

388
00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:04.559
<v Speaker 6>If you were to walk up to the gates and

389
00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:07.759
<v Speaker 6>look down into this narrow strip, okay, you see a

390
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.400
<v Speaker 6>space that is maybe twenty feet in width, lined on

391
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:14.480
<v Speaker 6>either side back from there with these gorgeous mausoleums. And

392
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:19.240
<v Speaker 6>they're lovely, right, they're they're beautiful, they're foreboding, but they

393
00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.880
<v Speaker 6>are also places that speak of the history of lineage,

394
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.519
<v Speaker 6>of all sorts of amazing things. I mean, it's such

395
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.319
<v Speaker 6>a place for us. Do we even have a plaque

396
00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:33.200
<v Speaker 6>erected in memory of James Hutting, the father of modern geology? Okay,

397
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:35.559
<v Speaker 6>so it's not just a place that is squirreled off.

398
00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:38.279
<v Speaker 6>It's a place that is even now fairly freshen memory,

399
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.799
<v Speaker 6>because it's quite a fresh plaque, even though nobody's inburied

400
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.839
<v Speaker 6>in the graveyard for over one hundred years. Because it is,

401
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.759
<v Speaker 6>it is, and if you can imagine this for a moment,

402
00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:49.400
<v Speaker 6>they can carry this. This graveyard is full quite literally

403
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:55.039
<v Speaker 6>to bursting point. So you did, and that is how

404
00:21:55.039 --> 00:22:00.680
<v Speaker 6>it gets its name exactly. Yes, So down we gooful

405
00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.000
<v Speaker 6>wars Liams on the side and maybe a couple of

406
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.839
<v Speaker 6>hundred feet in length. And these four hundred and twelve

407
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:10.200
<v Speaker 6>hundred people are taken into this area, lined up from

408
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.799
<v Speaker 6>the back. They're forced kicked down into the ground, and

409
00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:16.000
<v Speaker 6>they're forced to lie there through five months of a

410
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:23.079
<v Speaker 6>brutal Scottish winter. Right now, we give them only the food,

411
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:28.039
<v Speaker 6>water and shelter required just to really prolong this suffering

412
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.119
<v Speaker 6>and just to really drag it out, so that as

413
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.319
<v Speaker 6>many people as possible can endure five months of this.

414
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:36.960
<v Speaker 6>So here they lie, right, I mean they're really I

415
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:42.559
<v Speaker 6>mean they're suffering. Is quite extraordinary. They are, yeah, I

416
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.400
<v Speaker 6>mean if they moved or complained, they're taken out and

417
00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:46.599
<v Speaker 6>shots allegedly by muskets. There are still holes in the

418
00:22:46.599 --> 00:22:49.240
<v Speaker 6>wall outside from where the musket balls like puncturing their

419
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.880
<v Speaker 6>bodies and shatter their rocks behind. It is it is

420
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.480
<v Speaker 6>quite extraordinary now, they said it.

421
00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:56.960
<v Speaker 5>For the five months.

422
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.359
<v Speaker 6>If anybody moves or can play, it said, they're taken

423
00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:03.799
<v Speaker 6>out to the front and executed. If they try to escape,

424
00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:08.720
<v Speaker 6>soldiers positioned around the wall just shot them. Very few

425
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.559
<v Speaker 6>of these common a something here is the thing, these

426
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:16.240
<v Speaker 6>common answers, these people who support their things through prisoners here,

427
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:20.759
<v Speaker 6>they were officially free to leave any time that they

428
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:23.920
<v Speaker 6>wished to do so, Okay, all they had to do

429
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.480
<v Speaker 6>is to swear fealty to the king worship in his style,

430
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:34.039
<v Speaker 6>and very few of them did. Now, there may be

431
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.920
<v Speaker 6>a whole bunch of reasons for this. Some of them, well,

432
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.160
<v Speaker 6>what life is them? Is there for them outside of

433
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.480
<v Speaker 6>those walls if they go back to their families, their friends,

434
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:48.640
<v Speaker 6>their loved ones, having renounced their faith, their beliefs, and gone.

435
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.960
<v Speaker 5>Against everything they stood for. HM. Part of it is

436
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:54.319
<v Speaker 5>they I.

437
00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:57.160
<v Speaker 6>Mean they were willing to die already, they were willing

438
00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:00.119
<v Speaker 6>to join an army sign up, and quite willing to

439
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.519
<v Speaker 6>accept their fate for their beliefs.

440
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.240
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, we can see why why George McKenzie is known

441
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:07.319
<v Speaker 1>as Bloody George.

442
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:09.920
<v Speaker 6>Yes, he's got a head of a reputation, and part

443
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:14.039
<v Speaker 6>of that is are justified. And I think I've already

444
00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:16.000
<v Speaker 6>given you an indication that the story is much more

445
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.920
<v Speaker 6>complex than this, and part of this notion of joined

446
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.279
<v Speaker 6>the easy narrative and then it gets lost in history

447
00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.599
<v Speaker 6>as well. It's quite prevalent, I think, in quite an interesting,

448
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:27.680
<v Speaker 6>quite interesting phenomenon.

449
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:30.440
<v Speaker 2>So we'll we'll have to put I mean, we'll put

450
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:35.240
<v Speaker 2>links to some some of the research about McKenzie and

451
00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:37.759
<v Speaker 2>the history of this on the website. Obviously people could

452
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.799
<v Speaker 2>just google it. But I guess we wouldn't be talking

453
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.920
<v Speaker 2>about this story if there wasn't a supernatural or monstrous

454
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.039
<v Speaker 2>aspect to it. Now, the nature of this is somewhat

455
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:54.480
<v Speaker 2>monstrous in general, but this falls into an interesting category

456
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:57.759
<v Speaker 2>because on Monster Talk we talk about ghosts sometimes, and

457
00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:01.039
<v Speaker 2>we've talked about poultry geist. But you know, I'd always

458
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:06.440
<v Speaker 2>heard about the Greyfriar Kirkyard as just that I heard

459
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.720
<v Speaker 2>it called the Gray Friar Kirkyard Ghost, and it wasn't

460
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:11.480
<v Speaker 2>until I talked to Alison I realized that it was

461
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:16.119
<v Speaker 2>being known as the Mackenzie poultrgeist. And so let's talk

462
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.599
<v Speaker 2>about that a little bit if you don't mind. Of course,

463
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.640
<v Speaker 2>where where does the supernatural aspect come into this? Like,

464
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.400
<v Speaker 2>where where does it become a scary story and not

465
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.559
<v Speaker 2>just a pretty graveyard?

466
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.720
<v Speaker 5>Sure so Mackenzie's tomb itself lies maybe seventy feet from

467
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.960
<v Speaker 5>this portion of the graveyard. Now, for a very very

468
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:36.400
<v Speaker 5>long time, hundreds of years, the nearby school children have

469
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.160
<v Speaker 5>often run into his tomb, and depending on which version

470
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:41.920
<v Speaker 5>you hear, it's usually on the lines of McKenzie, Mackenzie,

471
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.960
<v Speaker 5>come out and get me. It's been favored that his coffin.

472
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.079
<v Speaker 5>So we can get to the story in a minute.

473
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:53.000
<v Speaker 6>But essentially, the tomb is quite unique. The musleium is

474
00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:57.319
<v Speaker 6>quite unique in that it exists over a minimum two levels.

475
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.640
<v Speaker 6>So there is a sub there's sub chamber beneath it

476
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:08.480
<v Speaker 6>which contains his coffin, his wife's coffin, and a third

477
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:12.640
<v Speaker 6>coffin that belongs to a lady placed in there quite

478
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:18.039
<v Speaker 6>some time after the tomb was shut. No one has

479
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.839
<v Speaker 6>any idea who she is, but there is no record

480
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:22.440
<v Speaker 6>of her being placed in there, and yet.

481
00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:24.319
<v Speaker 5>To be placed in there. She must have been.

482
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:30.319
<v Speaker 6>Important, right because this tomb is the grandest mausoleum in

483
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:34.440
<v Speaker 6>the graveyard, So it's unusual to his coffin in particular,

484
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:38.079
<v Speaker 6>has been his legendary, his legend has it has been

485
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:43.359
<v Speaker 6>known to move around ever since his burial there at

486
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:45.839
<v Speaker 6>various points throughout the day and night when people walk

487
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:50.359
<v Speaker 6>past me, didn't walk past. So in nineteen ninety eight,

488
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:54.839
<v Speaker 6>that stops. In nineteen ninety eight, as the story goes,

489
00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:58.119
<v Speaker 6>a homeless guy is making his way through Grayfrier's graveyard.

490
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:04.519
<v Speaker 6>He he's seeking shelter from the Scottish night in the weather,

491
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:08.000
<v Speaker 6>and he breaks in from the back of Mackenzie's too.

492
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.880
<v Speaker 6>Now there is indeed like a brick that used to

493
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:13.640
<v Speaker 6>be there, that was I mean, it's potentially Mackenzie buried there.

494
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:16.079
<v Speaker 6>I think it's late, it's only seventeen hundreds. I think

495
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:24.240
<v Speaker 6>in particular, mortar is old. It's old, it's rotten, and

496
00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 6>the brick grumbles inside. So his homeless guy squeezes his

497
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:30.960
<v Speaker 6>narrow maciated body through, and he notices fairly quickly, as

498
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:32.519
<v Speaker 6>you would do if you were to look through the

499
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:37.200
<v Speaker 6>gates just now, that there is a metal grill set

500
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.559
<v Speaker 6>in the floor, and now these days it has been

501
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:42.119
<v Speaker 6>sealed properly so that you can't get through because of

502
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 6>the breakings that they've had in the most recent set

503
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:45.279
<v Speaker 6>of years.

504
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.200
<v Speaker 5>Prior to that, it wasn't even locked.

505
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.440
<v Speaker 6>And the homeless guy makes his way down this steep

506
00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:55.319
<v Speaker 6>stone flight of stairs, finds himself in this subchamber and

507
00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:59.480
<v Speaker 6>proceeds to attempt to hammer into the mint Mackenzie's coughin

508
00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:03.559
<v Speaker 6>itself with a stone slab that he has procured from

509
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:11.880
<v Speaker 6>the floor beneath his feet, But the floor beneath that

510
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:17.279
<v Speaker 6>slab is not solid, and he falls into an additional

511
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.400
<v Speaker 6>burial pit the no one was aware of below it

512
00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:25.880
<v Speaker 6>now as he freaks out on the hollows and screams

513
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:30.759
<v Speaker 6>and shouts, our caretaker Graham, who I have met, is lovely.

514
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:33.960
<v Speaker 6>He is making his way through the graveyard, and he

515
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.680
<v Speaker 6>is categorically not thrilled at the prospect of being outside

516
00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.440
<v Speaker 6>in a typical Scottish night, in a legendary haunted graveyard

517
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:44.440
<v Speaker 6>with a loud, crashing noise coming from the legendarily haunted

518
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:48.440
<v Speaker 6>tomb of George Bloody Mackenzie right, and as he looks

519
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.200
<v Speaker 6>in through the door of the mausoleum, he sees that

520
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:57.640
<v Speaker 6>this grille in the floor is open for the first

521
00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:02.839
<v Speaker 6>time in living history. Now that's not an attractive prospect,

522
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.519
<v Speaker 6>I think for this man, but it's still it's still

523
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 6>absolutely his job to go and work out what it

524
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.920
<v Speaker 6>is to cut some of the story short for you.

525
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:11.400
<v Speaker 5>So there's something still with people to sign up to

526
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:12.519
<v Speaker 5>in a tourist. Uh.

527
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:17.200
<v Speaker 6>He gets downstairs to discover to discover that the homeless

528
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:23.680
<v Speaker 6>guy is emerging from this undisclosed, formally unknown burial pits beneath,

529
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:30.160
<v Speaker 6>shuffling in the dark, making his way towards him, and

530
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:32.160
<v Speaker 6>the two share what I think we can describe it

531
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:37.359
<v Speaker 6>as a moment. So whatever happens for these two men

532
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:39.480
<v Speaker 6>in this place, like, we have no idea, I think

533
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:45.839
<v Speaker 6>it's fair to say, like, what what this thing, what

534
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:50.319
<v Speaker 6>this comorant is There's lots of thoughts behind it or

535
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:54.599
<v Speaker 6>what specifically creates it, So we call it a poltergeist.

536
00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:00.640
<v Speaker 6>And back when, back when we start, that seemed to

537
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:04.079
<v Speaker 6>make sense. It's Certainly, it's much easier for us to

538
00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:07.720
<v Speaker 6>give you the title of a poltergeist than for us

539
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:11.079
<v Speaker 6>to give you all the little details, all the minutiae

540
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:18.359
<v Speaker 6>that we've covered in the last nineteen now nineteen years

541
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:23.000
<v Speaker 6>of researching this, of taking tour groups, through finding out

542
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.680
<v Speaker 6>what awful stuff happens to them, and finding some way

543
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:29.519
<v Speaker 6>of encouraging them to come back to our office and

544
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:31.279
<v Speaker 6>put pen to paper.

545
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:36.279
<v Speaker 1>So do all of the stories of paranormal activity go

546
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.039
<v Speaker 1>back to this incident or do they go back further?

547
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:45.000
<v Speaker 6>So like, certainly there are a bunch of theories about this. Right,

548
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:47.960
<v Speaker 6>So does I understand it because I only started back

549
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:52.119
<v Speaker 6>in the early two thousands. Right, the tomb is desecrated

550
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.000
<v Speaker 6>in nineteen ninety eight by this homeless guy. And something

551
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.480
<v Speaker 6>about this place, whether it's a desecration of the burial

552
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:03.359
<v Speaker 6>Pipperannie or Mackenzie's two or what these two men share together,

553
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.480
<v Speaker 6>the graveyard already has a reputation for being a thin place.

554
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.079
<v Speaker 6>If you look through its history, it is extraordinary how

555
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:14.160
<v Speaker 6>much of the fiction that we know of even today

556
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:17.279
<v Speaker 6>has been birthed in this particular place.

557
00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:18.480
<v Speaker 5>It's remarkable.

558
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Just quickly, I know we've mentioned thin places before. But

559
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:26.079
<v Speaker 2>that's could you describe what that means?

560
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:27.920
<v Speaker 6>So it's described to me it's just a place where

561
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:30.359
<v Speaker 6>the veil between or the place between this world and

562
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:31.519
<v Speaker 6>the next is very thin.

563
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:35.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we sometimes it's also called liminal spaces as well.

564
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:35.559
<v Speaker 2>I think.

565
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 6>Okay, so yeah, that's what so we don't like it

566
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.799
<v Speaker 6>is easier for us to tell you that it's a

567
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:43.680
<v Speaker 6>poltergeist and for people, because people generally have an appreciation

568
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.240
<v Speaker 6>for what a polter geist is or what it implies,

569
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:49.400
<v Speaker 6>then for us to get super technical and described to

570
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:51.279
<v Speaker 6>people all the little things that have happened to us

571
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:55.960
<v Speaker 6>to believe this thing is truly unique. There is nothing

572
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.400
<v Speaker 6>else like this on the planet. And we've been doing

573
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:01.599
<v Speaker 6>this for a long long time. And because we have

574
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.240
<v Speaker 6>sole access with permission from the Council to go into

575
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:09.559
<v Speaker 6>this location, if anything happens to people in there, it

576
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:11.839
<v Speaker 6>happens to people on our tours.

577
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:15.519
<v Speaker 5>Now. A lot of stuff goes unmentioned for a variety

578
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:19.759
<v Speaker 5>of reasons because maybe they feel awkward, a bit embarrassed

579
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.160
<v Speaker 5>about their experience, maybe they dismiss it as being psychosomatic,

580
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.599
<v Speaker 5>maybe they just maybe they quite often they're pretty jarred

581
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.559
<v Speaker 5>by the experience. I don't really know what to make

582
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:32.039
<v Speaker 5>of it until quite some time later.

583
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>So do you get people to sign Sorry to interrupt,

584
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.720
<v Speaker 1>but do you get people to sign disclaimers when they

585
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.960
<v Speaker 1>attend the tours to let them know that anything can happen?

586
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:45.200
<v Speaker 5>There's no disclaimer.

587
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:47.759
<v Speaker 6>It quite clearly says on our web pages, and it

588
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.799
<v Speaker 6>quite clearly says on our sign and we make a

589
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:51.599
<v Speaker 6>disclaimer at the beginning of each of our tours. Are

590
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:55.079
<v Speaker 6>the kind of things that have happened, regardless people's belief systems,

591
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:59.519
<v Speaker 6>to people on our tours, and that the tours can

592
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:02.359
<v Speaker 6>cause genuine mental distress, and.

593
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:03.160
<v Speaker 5>They can, they really can.

594
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.160
<v Speaker 6>People often ask me what the most terrifying thing is

595
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:11.759
<v Speaker 6>that I've seen or experienced than my tours, And it's

596
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:15.519
<v Speaker 6>not what you might think. In fact, it was terrifying

597
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:20.240
<v Speaker 6>precisely because it didn't happen to me on two occasions

598
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:21.160
<v Speaker 6>my tours.

599
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.960
<v Speaker 5>And this is very rare. This is two occasions in

600
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:23.680
<v Speaker 5>over ten years.

601
00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:28.920
<v Speaker 6>Okay, I've had females on my tour room and my

602
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 6>tour who have a couple of minutes in maybe five

603
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.880
<v Speaker 6>seven minutes in collapsed. Now that's not unusual that happens

604
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:40.519
<v Speaker 6>every now and again on our tours. But once they collapsed,

605
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:44.359
<v Speaker 6>they started well, they were unconscious when they came round,

606
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:49.400
<v Speaker 6>they started convulsing, and that will they last for maybe

607
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.759
<v Speaker 6>sort of a minute and a half two minutes, and

608
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:54.799
<v Speaker 6>then they go unconscious again and that maybe last for

609
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:55.680
<v Speaker 6>a minute and a half or so.

610
00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:58.519
<v Speaker 5>Then they come around start compassing again.

611
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:03.279
<v Speaker 6>This like, we got them out of the graveyard as

612
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.799
<v Speaker 6>best I could whilst they were like myself and some

613
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:08.519
<v Speaker 6>people of the tour, we encourage them out of the

614
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:13.159
<v Speaker 6>graveyard once we got to the gates of the prison itself,

615
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:17.320
<v Speaker 6>which is very unusual normally if people experience something untowards

616
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:20.920
<v Speaker 6>or uncomfortable once they leave the gate of the pretty

617
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.639
<v Speaker 6>the mores of the Black Mares Alium, which I think,

618
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.000
<v Speaker 6>for Clarity's sake, I should make clear here that McKenzie's

619
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:28.239
<v Speaker 6>tomb is not the.

620
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:29.000
<v Speaker 5>Black Mares Alium.

621
00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:31.840
<v Speaker 6>Over the last over the last couple of years, there

622
00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:34.400
<v Speaker 6>have been a number of tour groups starting up who

623
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:37.679
<v Speaker 6>have just been on our tour once stolen our stuff

624
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:41.519
<v Speaker 6>and then and then and then just just yeah, just

625
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:43.480
<v Speaker 6>just made up the rest right and keep saying nonsense,

626
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.400
<v Speaker 6>which which is I don't know, I guess how how

627
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.960
<v Speaker 6>history has always happened. I suspect, right, it's just find

628
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:54.159
<v Speaker 6>it curious that it's happening now when the authorities are

629
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.800
<v Speaker 6>still here.

630
00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:56.239
<v Speaker 5>We're the authorities.

631
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:02.719
<v Speaker 6>So so the Black Moors liam exists within the Cobinants Prison.

632
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:05.840
<v Speaker 6>It's about halfway down the left hand side in one

633
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:08.960
<v Speaker 6>of the early tombs some mausoleums that are in fact

634
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.920
<v Speaker 6>fully enclosed. That appears to be where this thing has

635
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:16.719
<v Speaker 6>made its nest for the last So nineteen ninety nine

636
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:18.760
<v Speaker 6>was when it was when it's sort of really focused

637
00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:22.760
<v Speaker 6>in their one particular area. So that makes it nineteen years,

638
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:24.599
<v Speaker 6>I doesn't it? Yes, Okay, so last nineteen.

639
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:26.400
<v Speaker 5>Years inditionally around the place.

640
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:29.119
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it initially moved around the place from to tomb

641
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.039
<v Speaker 6>in there, but really it has really started to focus

642
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.599
<v Speaker 6>in the last fifteen odd years, most definitely in that

643
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:39.480
<v Speaker 6>particular two McKenzie's tomb lines around one hundred feet away

644
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:40.440
<v Speaker 6>from the entrance.

645
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:45.559
<v Speaker 5>His tomb. Rarely anything happens there, very very rarely.

646
00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:49.039
<v Speaker 6>In fact, I was in the habit of saying that

647
00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:51.119
<v Speaker 6>nothing happens there at all anymore. But in fact, on

648
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.159
<v Speaker 6>one of my tours about three months ago, we had

649
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:58.480
<v Speaker 6>a group of six customers, myself just looking ato Mackenzie's tomb,

650
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:02.440
<v Speaker 6>and what is thing is that each of us experienced

651
00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:04.719
<v Speaker 6>the very cold pressure of like a like a cold

652
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.760
<v Speaker 6>finger sideways on something like this, pressing against the back

653
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:09.559
<v Speaker 6>of our necks, right at the base of them. Now,

654
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:12.760
<v Speaker 6>what's interesting is like, yeah, we all got this sensation

655
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:15.679
<v Speaker 6>without anybody mentioning it, you know, like we all went

656
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:17.800
<v Speaker 6>through it and then said, man, that was weird. I

657
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:20.679
<v Speaker 6>had this cold sensation. Yes, me too, Yes, me too,

658
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:24.159
<v Speaker 6>that was weird. All right, very very cool. So where

659
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:26.239
<v Speaker 6>were we bake? That's right, And we're the worst thing

660
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:27.519
<v Speaker 6>that's happened to me, these two guys.

661
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:28.480
<v Speaker 5>We're getting past the gage.

662
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Well quickly, I just want to clarify. So you're saying

663
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:36.719
<v Speaker 2>the black mausoleum is not McKenzie's tomb. Exactly whose tomb is?

664
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:41.280
<v Speaker 5>It belongs to the Dundas family, that.

665
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Is So it's like so right, it's all over the

666
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:45.920
<v Speaker 2>internet like that they think it's the same thing. That's

667
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:48.639
<v Speaker 2>so interesting, Okay, yes, yeah.

668
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:50.480
<v Speaker 5>So you have the scoop right here.

669
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:56.159
<v Speaker 6>This is not the same thing, and yeah, it's it's

670
00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:58.519
<v Speaker 6>just it's really interesting that there have been other tour

671
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:05.480
<v Speaker 6>companies coming by who have rewritten history, even even as

672
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:07.639
<v Speaker 6>it's even if it's happening, it's being rewritten.

673
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, let's be honest, Google could rewrite history

674
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:13.800
<v Speaker 2>if they sit, They could completely change when people believe,

675
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:18.039
<v Speaker 2>way faster than the classes of America, right, all the all.

676
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.320
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely exactly.

677
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.239
<v Speaker 6>Yes, So yeah, it's just really and I've just cast

678
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.599
<v Speaker 6>my mind back. This is what I love about the

679
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:27.000
<v Speaker 6>tour is the things that it teaches us about ourselves,

680
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.039
<v Speaker 6>what it is to be human in society and culture.

681
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:30.159
<v Speaker 5>Things like this, we.

682
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:33.079
<v Speaker 6>Look back, who's to say that what we have now

683
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:36.079
<v Speaker 6>is our appreciation of history was not rewritten as it

684
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:36.920
<v Speaker 6>happened as well.

685
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:39.719
<v Speaker 5>I mean, like here we still have things that are.

686
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.800
<v Speaker 6>Like there's so much knowledge available, information available, at least

687
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.079
<v Speaker 6>you can if you have the mind to make an

688
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:49.840
<v Speaker 6>informed decision, whereas even back one hundred years, that's not really.

689
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:53.159
<v Speaker 5>You know, that's not really a thing that happens.

690
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:56.199
<v Speaker 6>If you think about the gold standards of things like

691
00:37:56.239 --> 00:38:00.320
<v Speaker 6>the Encyclopedia Britannica, that's still one persons or like a

692
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:02.239
<v Speaker 6>collection of people's idea as to what happened. They've just

693
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:05.159
<v Speaker 6>made they put together a narrative for us, they said,

694
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:09.679
<v Speaker 6>here you go. So I find it really interesting that

695
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:11.840
<v Speaker 6>we still face these same problems, and it it puts

696
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:18.280
<v Speaker 6>into perspective our history as a storytellers, as history keepers,

697
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:19.519
<v Speaker 6>as humans.

698
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:24.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, I guess they used to say, what a

699
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.559
<v Speaker 2>history is written by the winners, and I think now

700
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:28.960
<v Speaker 2>history is written by the church engine, right.

701
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:32.039
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, the people who shout the louder, the loudest, that's right.

702
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anyway, did he rail the conversation?

703
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:39.840
<v Speaker 6>Remember where we are, So once you reach a gate

704
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:43.000
<v Speaker 6>to the prison, these two women start to come rounds

705
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:45.519
<v Speaker 6>and we and we get them out of the gradeyard.

706
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:48.320
<v Speaker 6>I'm not getting any kind of statement from them, right,

707
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:49.760
<v Speaker 6>you just have to take it on the authority of

708
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.400
<v Speaker 6>meet I guess, because there's no way I'm encouraging someone

709
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.320
<v Speaker 6>to sit down and write out their experience given what

710
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:58.239
<v Speaker 6>they've just been through. And there is nothing like we

711
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:01.400
<v Speaker 6>have trained them first aid, right, but there is there

712
00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:03.880
<v Speaker 6>is very little in my first aid training that can't

713
00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:08.039
<v Speaker 6>prepare one for something like this. And there's nothing quite

714
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:13.760
<v Speaker 6>like that sense of powerlessness on the unknown, and it

715
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:18.360
<v Speaker 6>happening extemporaneously. I mean, you say it's you can say

716
00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:20.519
<v Speaker 6>it's psychosomatic. Well that's possible, but it's not me that

717
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:22.519
<v Speaker 6>suggested it, right, it's not a power of suggestion that's

718
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.159
<v Speaker 6>got there, not from me anyways, There's there was nothing

719
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:27.760
<v Speaker 6>in our tool literature that would encourage such a thing.

720
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:33.840
<v Speaker 6>It's yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just surprising and very very cool,

721
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:34.239
<v Speaker 6>I guess.

722
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:37.559
<v Speaker 1>And so they were okay in the end, because I'd

723
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:39.800
<v Speaker 1>be worried that that had an epileptic fad or.

724
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:45.639
<v Speaker 6>Something I have not seen anyone experienced like that before

725
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:51.239
<v Speaker 6>or since. Does not experience of epilepsy or seizures, and

726
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.840
<v Speaker 6>maybe it does something more more trainers have more experience.

727
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:56.800
<v Speaker 6>But once they're outside, they find there was no gnashing

728
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:01.039
<v Speaker 6>of the teeth, there was no they yeah, and they

729
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:02.880
<v Speaker 6>walked out of the graveyard. So to my knowledge, they

730
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:08.159
<v Speaker 6>had an experience and left right having had quite an experience,

731
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:12.639
<v Speaker 6>but they left physics.

732
00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Does it seem like all of the paranormal activity cases

733
00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:25.280
<v Speaker 1>or experiences that people have had are attributed to George

734
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:30.159
<v Speaker 1>Bloody mackenzie or are there other reputed posts on the grounds?

735
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:34.079
<v Speaker 5>I mean there are there are. There are occasionally infrequently

736
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:37.840
<v Speaker 5>sightings of various things like like the new typical spectral

737
00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:40.920
<v Speaker 5>white lady going around the place, and children as well.

738
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:46.079
<v Speaker 5>They're not so common. They're not so common. This stuff

739
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.760
<v Speaker 5>largely happens inside of this one particular tumb at this point.

740
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:53.239
<v Speaker 2>So why is it called the black Mausoleum.

741
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:56.679
<v Speaker 6>It's so because I wasn't there to start. I can

742
00:40:56.679 --> 00:40:58.719
<v Speaker 6>give you a hearsay for that one. It allegedly starts

743
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:04.280
<v Speaker 6>before the tours even begin, like just because of what

744
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:06.440
<v Speaker 6>was going on when you when you get there, come

745
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.960
<v Speaker 6>on a tour, when you get to stand outside of

746
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.320
<v Speaker 6>it too, it's immediately obvious it is a small dark

747
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:15.480
<v Speaker 6>to a small dark mausoleum.

748
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:18.199
<v Speaker 5>It's not particularly large. It will hold maybe one hundred

749
00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:22.159
<v Speaker 5>something people if you're pushed in. It's about it the light,

750
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:24.320
<v Speaker 5>Like it's something about the quality of the light in there.

751
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:31.280
<v Speaker 5>It just it just seems like dark. I describe if

752
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:33.000
<v Speaker 5>you better than that, I'm afraid it just seems.

753
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:36.079
<v Speaker 2>Do you actually go inside it during the tours, yes.

754
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:40.840
<v Speaker 6>Sir, indeed, yeah, okay, So that's how that's how we

755
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:43.639
<v Speaker 6>experience it, and that's how we know that the stuff

756
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:46.119
<v Speaker 6>that happens in this click of the Black Mausoleum happens

757
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:51.400
<v Speaker 6>not tours. We do our best to keep accounts acknowledgments

758
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:53.920
<v Speaker 6>of also all the stuff that happens within and around it.

759
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:59.559
<v Speaker 1>So you say sorry, didn't you say to to us

760
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:02.920
<v Speaker 1>just when we were communicating with you? Well, to begin with,

761
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:05.679
<v Speaker 1>you said that there have been over five hundred documented

762
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.440
<v Speaker 1>cases or experience.

763
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:08.079
<v Speaker 5>So it's curious.

764
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:09.920
<v Speaker 6>I mean, that's an easy number to claim. The answer

765
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:12.400
<v Speaker 6>is there have been substantially more than that. We were

766
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.440
<v Speaker 6>claiming over four hundred shortly after I started being a

767
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:20.280
<v Speaker 6>tour guide, and that was over ten years ago, So

768
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:22.599
<v Speaker 6>for at least eight years we've had a well and

769
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:23.199
<v Speaker 6>excess of that.

770
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:26.880
<v Speaker 2>How many tours do you run a week At the moment, we.

771
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:27.880
<v Speaker 5>Run about five a night.

772
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:31.960
<v Speaker 6>One of those does not go through the graveyard, though

773
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.440
<v Speaker 6>it goes specifically through the south Bridge bolts themselves got it.

774
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.159
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but the three out of three of the five

775
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:43.000
<v Speaker 5>of them end up inside is Black mausoleum.

776
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.000
<v Speaker 6>And like, I wish we could claim a higher rate

777
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:50.239
<v Speaker 6>than this of violent attacks, but in fact, I don't

778
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:51.599
<v Speaker 6>think we'd be able to get it past our health

779
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:52.039
<v Speaker 6>and safety.

780
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't want anybody to get hurt, I mean,

781
00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:58.280
<v Speaker 2>but I mean, you're doing what thirty five a week

782
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.800
<v Speaker 2>times fifty two, that's a lot tour. How many people

783
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:01.360
<v Speaker 2>go on a tour?

784
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:05.320
<v Speaker 6>Oh, so the current tour cap set where the council

785
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:08.039
<v Speaker 6>is thirty five, and we'll run with a minimum of

786
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:11.440
<v Speaker 6>a roundabout sort of somewhere between two and eight, depending

787
00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:15.119
<v Speaker 6>on the composition of the group and the time of

788
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:15.440
<v Speaker 6>the tour.

789
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:20.159
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, So, I know this is your primary job is

790
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:22.400
<v Speaker 2>to take people on tours, not to do statistics. But

791
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.280
<v Speaker 2>I was curious, do you keep track of how many

792
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:29.239
<v Speaker 2>people report versus how many don't report having incidents to

793
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:33.159
<v Speaker 2>get some sort of statistical information about what percentage people

794
00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:34.239
<v Speaker 2>experience weird things.

795
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.239
<v Speaker 6>The answer is that we unfortunately have nothing formal in place,

796
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:40.880
<v Speaker 6>so we have a book of accounts at the end

797
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:44.400
<v Speaker 6>of people are welcome to come and fill out. Of

798
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:47.239
<v Speaker 6>course they're welcome to do so, and if somebody experiences

799
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:50.119
<v Speaker 6>something we will endeavor. We will encourage them to fill

800
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:53.400
<v Speaker 6>this book out with their experience sign date. It give

801
00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:55.719
<v Speaker 6>us some way of contact in them, so that so

802
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:57.360
<v Speaker 6>that everyone knows that we're not cheating.

803
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:00.400
<v Speaker 5>Sure, because it's important to us. Did it comes of

804
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:00.880
<v Speaker 5>somebody else?

805
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:02.119
<v Speaker 6>But if we can make if we can make this

806
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:04.199
<v Speaker 6>stuff up I'm pretty sure we would be hilarious.

807
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.599
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I mean, to be fair, it's injuries

808
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:11.960
<v Speaker 2>and and you've got pictures of people, you know, posting

809
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:15.559
<v Speaker 2>scratches in what looked like stuff. So yeah, I mean,

810
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:19.920
<v Speaker 2>for all the I mean, it's interesting from a paranormal perspective,

811
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:23.079
<v Speaker 2>but somebody they're being injured, right, So yeah, it's curious

812
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:24.719
<v Speaker 2>and somewhat scary.

813
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:27.159
<v Speaker 6>So there are a bunch of ways that we find

814
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:29.039
<v Speaker 6>it tricky, because so we have this book as a

815
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:33.039
<v Speaker 6>way of keeping track of things. Formally, quite often the

816
00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:35.199
<v Speaker 6>guides will be approached by people after the tour of

817
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:38.119
<v Speaker 6>people who say, hey, this really weird thing happened, or hey,

818
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.559
<v Speaker 6>look at these scratches, or I felt this cold sensation

819
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:43.480
<v Speaker 6>or I felt like I was being pushed or choked

820
00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:48.880
<v Speaker 6>or punched or kicked, or like a burning sensation or scratching.

821
00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:50.159
<v Speaker 5>Whatever, whatever it is, right, whole bunch of things.

822
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:54.079
<v Speaker 6>And oftentimes that's just the words in the ear of

823
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:58.119
<v Speaker 6>the guide at the end, and we we tell each other.

824
00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:01.119
<v Speaker 6>But because it's quite a solitary job, as you can imagine,

825
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:03.079
<v Speaker 6>we have a little a little office in the in

826
00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:06.599
<v Speaker 6>the graveyard full of full of the books, of actually

827
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:10.679
<v Speaker 6>pretty cool stuff I think, as well as well as

828
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:12.559
<v Speaker 6>some nonsense like old scary movies.

829
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:15.639
<v Speaker 1>We love that we've got to come and visit.

830
00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:17.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah along, well.

831
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:19.719
<v Speaker 5>Yeah it'd be great one day.

832
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:24.360
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, I mean, like the actual communication between us

833
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:26.880
<v Speaker 6>doesn't doesn't happen very much. We we've been doing it

834
00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:28.679
<v Speaker 6>for so long and these things happened so regularly that

835
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.199
<v Speaker 6>we just just don't pass the information on.

836
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:34.000
<v Speaker 2>What about your guides themselves, I mean, you guys seems

837
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:36.599
<v Speaker 2>like you would be exposed to this more than anybody

838
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:38.239
<v Speaker 2>if you guys had any trouble.

839
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:42.039
<v Speaker 6>We have a bunch of trouble happening, right, So, I

840
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:44.000
<v Speaker 6>mean in terms of our experience there, like some of

841
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:48.119
<v Speaker 6>my colleagues have been just gets randomly strangled by their scars.

842
00:45:48.159 --> 00:45:51.400
<v Speaker 6>They somehow when the when the gate was being replaced

843
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:52.920
<v Speaker 6>and there was a different kind of door and lock

844
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:56.199
<v Speaker 6>and there two of them got locked in somehow from

845
00:45:56.239 --> 00:46:00.920
<v Speaker 6>the gate the locks on the outside. Right, we get

846
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:02.719
<v Speaker 6>show my scars, like I've walked out of there with

847
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:05.480
<v Speaker 6>these three gouges down my chest, experienced the cold spots.

848
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:11.639
<v Speaker 6>Well it's the guy's experience something. They'll just feel really

849
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:15.239
<v Speaker 6>really uncomfortable but we just take it in our stride.

850
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:16.760
<v Speaker 6>I mean, it's part part of the job is what

851
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:18.679
<v Speaker 6>keeps us coming back. You're either like, if you don't

852
00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:19.760
<v Speaker 6>like it, don't do the job.

853
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Right. Have you had anybody quit out of fear?

854
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:27.119
<v Speaker 5>No? No is the answer.

855
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:30.239
<v Speaker 2>It's almost like it's self selecting you. People wouldn't take

856
00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:31.719
<v Speaker 2>the job if they're afraid, right, I.

857
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:34.000
<v Speaker 6>Mean, yeah, exactly, yes. I mean you've got to be

858
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:38.400
<v Speaker 6>a bit pretty quirky. I'm curious to take this kind

859
00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:41.039
<v Speaker 6>of thing up. The bits where we do have concerns

860
00:46:41.239 --> 00:46:45.280
<v Speaker 6>is that previously, up until gosh, I don't you know,

861
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:46.880
<v Speaker 6>for an official picku, I'm going to say ten years

862
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:49.960
<v Speaker 6>for arguments, say ten years ago. So the gates were

863
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:55.679
<v Speaker 6>closed at night the graveyard itself, which meant it was

864
00:46:55.719 --> 00:47:00.480
<v Speaker 6>relatively safe. Now the council refuses to have the gates close.

865
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:07.519
<v Speaker 6>What that means is that sometimes they're unfortunately repurposed for

866
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:13.679
<v Speaker 6>illegal activities. And also Edinburgh has, okay, it has a

867
00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:17.239
<v Speaker 6>homeless problems, as many many cities and places do, and

868
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.119
<v Speaker 6>the tombs, when they're left open and thride an opportunity

869
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:23.039
<v Speaker 6>for someone who really needs some kind of shelter to

870
00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:27.320
<v Speaker 6>get a break, and sometimes that comes with a commensurate

871
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:33.639
<v Speaker 6>with mental health concerns, And oftentimes the most dangerous thing

872
00:47:33.639 --> 00:47:35.639
<v Speaker 6>in the graveyard is not what lies in the prison

873
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.079
<v Speaker 6>itself in the Black Marsleum, but comes from the human factor.

874
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, you do you so? Uh sorry, caring you

875
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:48.320
<v Speaker 2>go sorry.

876
00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:48.960
<v Speaker 5>If you have a question.

877
00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:52.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I mean we're kind of coming to drawing

878
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.760
<v Speaker 1>to a close soon, So I was just going to

879
00:47:56.039 --> 00:47:59.280
<v Speaker 1>ask a change topic just slightly, just to say that

880
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.760
<v Speaker 1>has got quite a few famous residents, but one of

881
00:48:03.800 --> 00:48:07.039
<v Speaker 1>the most famous residents is a dog. So could you

882
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:10.280
<v Speaker 1>toss a little bit about the break fries Bobby? And

883
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:12.079
<v Speaker 1>is he believed to haunt the cemetery?

884
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:16.159
<v Speaker 5>Oh my goodness, So do you know what The answer is? No,

885
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:20.119
<v Speaker 5>not until recently when a tour company started telling people

886
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:20.599
<v Speaker 5>that he was.

887
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:28.480
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, yeah, so's he's not believed to haunt the place.

888
00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:32.960
<v Speaker 6>My manager is an extraordinary woman instrument. She does so

889
00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:36.679
<v Speaker 6>much of the primary research. It's so interesting, especially given

890
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:38.400
<v Speaker 6>I think your chat with Alison last time round and

891
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:40.159
<v Speaker 6>people just kind of reading blogs and stuff like this

892
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:43.440
<v Speaker 6>and taking things at face value. She and she goes

893
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:45.280
<v Speaker 6>right and she loves nothing more than getting into the

894
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:48.840
<v Speaker 6>archives and pulling out bundles of stuff that are hundreds

895
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.719
<v Speaker 6>of years old and no one's looked at since they

896
00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:54.360
<v Speaker 6>were first written or done up in a beautiful little ribbon,

897
00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:56.320
<v Speaker 6>and opening them up and finding out what people thought

898
00:48:56.360 --> 00:48:57.280
<v Speaker 6>in the seventeen hundreds.

899
00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.440
<v Speaker 5>Things like this. Really interesting stuff comes out of it.

900
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:04.599
<v Speaker 6>And one of the things she's been looking up researching

901
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.719
<v Speaker 6>is the history of Bobby now Greyfriars. Bobby used to

902
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.760
<v Speaker 6>be the reason why Grayfriars was famous, and people traveled

903
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:15.440
<v Speaker 6>on a near pilgrimage from the entire globe to pay

904
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:16.920
<v Speaker 6>their respects to him. So if you come in through

905
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:20.559
<v Speaker 6>the main gate of Grayfriars, it's a little cobbled entrance,

906
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.559
<v Speaker 6>a little bit of tarmac, and then directly between you

907
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.719
<v Speaker 6>and the kirk is it opens up. The graveyard spreads

908
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:29.400
<v Speaker 6>out to the sides, but you're directly in front of you.

909
00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:32.480
<v Speaker 6>In between you and the kirk is a shiny new

910
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:36.239
<v Speaker 6>headstone dedicated to Bobby, erected by the American Dog Love

911
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:39.719
<v Speaker 6>and Dog Lovers, I think American Lovers and Bobby's Society,

912
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:44.239
<v Speaker 6>something like this, I forget. So it's placed there, He's

913
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:46.760
<v Speaker 6>not buried there, it's been believed that he was buried

914
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:50.840
<v Speaker 6>just outside the walls in the streets, because dogs are

915
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:52.880
<v Speaker 6>still not allowed in a human graveyard.

916
00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:55.079
<v Speaker 5>Man, I think the answers reasons for that are are

917
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:56.039
<v Speaker 5>pretty self evident.

918
00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:59.559
<v Speaker 2>It's because nobody's to walk them.

919
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:09.239
<v Speaker 5>Is that I love the bones so in there. Yeah.

920
00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:12.320
<v Speaker 6>So, in fact, the documentation, like the original document of

921
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:14.400
<v Speaker 6>the newspaper ports things like this, showed that he was

922
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:19.760
<v Speaker 6>buried in a flower pot, a flower bed, sorry, and

923
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:22.440
<v Speaker 6>a flower bed somewhere very close to that side of

924
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:24.719
<v Speaker 6>the graveyard. So it's highly likely that he in fact existed.

925
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:26.760
<v Speaker 6>He was noted in the papers before his death, before

926
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:31.360
<v Speaker 6>he got super famous, and it's not that he was. Yeah,

927
00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:33.440
<v Speaker 6>he was buried in a flower bed near the church.

928
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:34.920
<v Speaker 2>What was he famous for?

929
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:37.679
<v Speaker 6>So he was famous for a living on his master's

930
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:40.440
<v Speaker 6>grave for fourteen years the premises his master turns up.

931
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:42.320
<v Speaker 5>And let me preface it with this.

932
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:46.480
<v Speaker 6>There are as many different stories of Bobby as there

933
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.360
<v Speaker 6>are people writing stories.

934
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:49.760
<v Speaker 5>About Bobby, right.

935
00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:53.199
<v Speaker 1>There are a few stories like this across the globe too,

936
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:54.559
<v Speaker 1>of similar stories.

937
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:55.599
<v Speaker 5>Yeah indeed.

938
00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:59.360
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, but I mean it's just been like everybody who

939
00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:01.679
<v Speaker 6>has a book to write about Bobby comes out with

940
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:04.199
<v Speaker 6>a new set of facts and then rewrites the story

941
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:07.559
<v Speaker 6>of Bobby. So in one version he's owned by a

942
00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:11.119
<v Speaker 6>policeman and another version he's owned by a shepherd.

943
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:13.960
<v Speaker 5>Is it's a bit all over the shop.

944
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:17.199
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, Like the story is that he lives in

945
00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:21.599
<v Speaker 6>his master's grave for fourteen years, such as his loyalty

946
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:24.599
<v Speaker 6>and devotion from a puppy through to very very old age,

947
00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:28.519
<v Speaker 6>and the people of Edinburgh they love him, for sure,

948
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:30.880
<v Speaker 6>they absolutely love him. The legend goes that he's given

949
00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:35.039
<v Speaker 6>the keys to the city for his loyalty and devotion,

950
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.480
<v Speaker 6>never mind that he's got no posable thumb to use

951
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:42.480
<v Speaker 6>it with. Also, apparently that means we gave the right

952
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:45.000
<v Speaker 6>to vote to a dog, like some considerable time before

953
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:45.960
<v Speaker 6>we would give it to a woman.

954
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:48.920
<v Speaker 5>It's really pe juliar.

955
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:53.239
<v Speaker 1>So this was the nineteenth century when he died.

956
00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:56.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's one of these dogs that's alleged to have

957
00:51:57.079 --> 00:52:00.960
<v Speaker 2>come to the grave of his master after his master dies, stays.

958
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:04.159
<v Speaker 6>There, right, he's so loyal and devoted exactly, Yes, yes,

959
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:07.119
<v Speaker 6>I mean it is like various different stories say that

960
00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:09.840
<v Speaker 6>maybe he was replaced at some point.

961
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:12.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like Skippy the Kangaroo.

962
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:18.239
<v Speaker 2>Ah, yes, yes, I'm especially fine to that. There's an

963
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:21.840
<v Speaker 2>incident a variant of this in the Discworld series by

964
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Terry Pratchett, where basically the whole thing is the dog's

965
00:52:25.159 --> 00:52:27.559
<v Speaker 2>loyal but he's not that loyal, but they put the

966
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:29.800
<v Speaker 2>tombstone down on his tail so he can't leave.

967
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:36.800
<v Speaker 1>That explained. It's a charming story anyway.

968
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.480
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, so he used me where the graveyard is famous

969
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:43.599
<v Speaker 6>and now, which turns out that the bulk of tourism

970
00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:44.840
<v Speaker 6>is because.

971
00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:45.920
<v Speaker 5>Of Harry Potter.

972
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Harry Potter, Yeah indeed, yeah, why why.

973
00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:57.719
<v Speaker 5>So I sent a bit of a Harry Potter.

974
00:52:57.639 --> 00:52:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Fan in you a bit, a bit a bit. Just

975
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:02.280
<v Speaker 2>don't muggle me. I'm just saying.

976
00:53:04.599 --> 00:53:04.639
<v Speaker 5>So.

977
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:10.159
<v Speaker 6>The behind the school, behind the Coveinages prison, the portion

978
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.800
<v Speaker 6>of the graveyard is a large castle like school called

979
00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:18.280
<v Speaker 6>Harriet's Believes, been inspiration for Hogwarts round in the rear,

980
00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:23.000
<v Speaker 6>the westernmost portion of the graveyard lies the tomb of Sorry,

981
00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:27.519
<v Speaker 6>the headstone and burial place of he should not be.

982
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:32.400
<v Speaker 5>Named Thomas Riddle. There we go. Really wow, Moody is

983
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:32.840
<v Speaker 5>also in.

984
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:37.000
<v Speaker 6>There, somewhere along the flodden wall. William McGonagall, officially the

985
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:42.119
<v Speaker 6>world's worst poet he is also got a bath from there,

986
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:45.079
<v Speaker 6>along with a piece of his extraordinary poetry that you'll

987
00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:46.840
<v Speaker 6>never get out of your brain once you've read it.

988
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Wow. So does the Hogwarts Express have a stop at Edinburgh.

989
00:53:56.199 --> 00:53:56.880
<v Speaker 5>That I do not know?

990
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:02.519
<v Speaker 1>Gosh, it's famous for lots of different reasons.

991
00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:05.519
<v Speaker 5>Yes, yes, indeed, so can I bring us to this?

992
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:11.360
<v Speaker 5>So earlier on you asked about skepticism in your skepticisms

993
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:15.480
<v Speaker 5>in your name here as well. I find it very interesting.

994
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:20.480
<v Speaker 5>So for example this, people often ask me if I

995
00:54:20.599 --> 00:54:21.679
<v Speaker 5>believe in.

996
00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:24.440
<v Speaker 6>A paranormal, in ghosts, things like this, especially given the

997
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:26.159
<v Speaker 6>nature of what I do, and I find it a

998
00:54:26.199 --> 00:54:27.239
<v Speaker 6>tricky question to answer.

999
00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:31.480
<v Speaker 5>What I've observed is this that.

1000
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:37.800
<v Speaker 6>When people experience something, either in the south Bridgeables or

1001
00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:41.920
<v Speaker 6>in the Black Mausoleum inside of this prison area, they

1002
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:46.440
<v Speaker 6>really experienced something. What you attribute it to is entirely

1003
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.760
<v Speaker 6>like a separate matter. They really experienced something. And I

1004
00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:56.159
<v Speaker 6>think people can be remarkably unkind and disingenuous when they

1005
00:54:56.280 --> 00:54:59.360
<v Speaker 6>say to people, well, you're talking nonsense, because there's no

1006
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:01.880
<v Speaker 6>such things, so it must be in your head, right,

1007
00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:05.679
<v Speaker 6>These people have genuinely experienced something. These people were making

1008
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:08.079
<v Speaker 6>no effort to find out what that experience was, and

1009
00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:10.159
<v Speaker 6>no effort to find out what the mechanism behind it is.

1010
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:12.840
<v Speaker 6>Really dismissive, I think, is what I'm looking for and

1011
00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:16.480
<v Speaker 6>what happens people when they have their belief systems challenged,

1012
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:22.800
<v Speaker 6>and when they have their experience dismissed. We'll lose a

1013
00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:25.880
<v Speaker 6>little piece of ourselves in the process, lose our sense

1014
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:29.280
<v Speaker 6>of self when we feel diminished like that, and it

1015
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:33.480
<v Speaker 6>immediately gets our backup right immediately. It just creates some distance.

1016
00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:36.199
<v Speaker 6>People get all hostile about it, and I think, like

1017
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:39.559
<v Speaker 6>the guy I've been studying, this wonderful hypnotist from the

1018
00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:43.360
<v Speaker 6>last century, Dave Dobson, fascinating man. Here's what a wonderful

1019
00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:47.280
<v Speaker 6>way of talking about belief systems. He says, you can

1020
00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:49.920
<v Speaker 6>tell a belief system, but when you bump up against it,

1021
00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:52.639
<v Speaker 6>I think a courser experience. If anyone who's paid attention

1022
00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:57.760
<v Speaker 6>outside of themselves will appreciate that sentiment, Especially if you're

1023
00:55:57.760 --> 00:56:00.280
<v Speaker 6>in the business of talking to people about the paranormal.

1024
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:06.559
<v Speaker 5>And like that, people just clamp down and stuff. The

1025
00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:08.159
<v Speaker 5>same thing goes for.

1026
00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:12.960
<v Speaker 6>People from the other side, people who are believers when

1027
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:15.960
<v Speaker 6>they experience something weird in these places and they say, oh,

1028
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.599
<v Speaker 6>it's a ghost or para poulter geist or whatever. They're

1029
00:56:18.599 --> 00:56:23.039
<v Speaker 6>blaming it on right, without any notion of the mechanism

1030
00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:25.400
<v Speaker 6>of how it happens, without any any evidence, and that's

1031
00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:26.079
<v Speaker 6>what's happening.

1032
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:27.800
<v Speaker 5>Does that make sense to you?

1033
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:30.599
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, Like if they've got sprens of a table here,

1034
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:33.239
<v Speaker 6>then then all they've done is just again stated a

1035
00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:36.320
<v Speaker 6>belief system and they've asked everybody else to take it

1036
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:39.840
<v Speaker 6>on faith, and like it might still be something truly

1037
00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:43.039
<v Speaker 6>bizarre and paranormal. But now we have no room for

1038
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:46.079
<v Speaker 6>a discussion because we've got two groups of people who

1039
00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:49.599
<v Speaker 6>are just stating how they feel about something and they believes,

1040
00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:54.199
<v Speaker 6>and all this rich space in the middle for discussion. Like,

1041
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:56.079
<v Speaker 6>from what I appreciate, I think might've listened to your

1042
00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:57.840
<v Speaker 6>right that you're doing your best to inhabit right there

1043
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:01.079
<v Speaker 6>in the middle. That for me is lost when these

1044
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:03.079
<v Speaker 6>two camps of people just come straight at it with

1045
00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:06.320
<v Speaker 6>with the blanket statement it was this without any any

1046
00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:07.360
<v Speaker 6>any foundation to it.

1047
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:11.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we've set up shopping a mindfield. It's not really why.

1048
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:14.079
<v Speaker 5>I think it's a great place to be.

1049
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:16.960
<v Speaker 6>I think like when did feel uncomfortable end up being

1050
00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:20.199
<v Speaker 6>so bad, right, Like, it's going to be uncomfortable if

1051
00:57:20.199 --> 00:57:22.239
<v Speaker 6>you don't know stuff people. I think we've already discussed

1052
00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:24.760
<v Speaker 6>this that people love the easy narrative. It seems so

1053
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:27.280
<v Speaker 6>humand because it's tricky for us to hold these competing

1054
00:57:27.360 --> 00:57:28.880
<v Speaker 6>notions in our body and in our mind.

1055
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:32.480
<v Speaker 5>But that's that's where real value is. That's where we

1056
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:33.599
<v Speaker 5>get to learn new stuff.

1057
00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:37.039
<v Speaker 6>That's where progress and growth are, right, And it's going

1058
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:39.679
<v Speaker 6>to feel uncomfortable, of course it is. Yeah, that we

1059
00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:41.239
<v Speaker 6>certainly nature progress and growth.

1060
00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:43.719
<v Speaker 2>It's the whole thing that we call it the search

1061
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:47.599
<v Speaker 2>for cognitive closure. Right you want to like put a

1062
00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:50.639
<v Speaker 2>put a button on it, or you just sort I

1063
00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:53.559
<v Speaker 2>know it's this and I'm comfortable, but I you know,

1064
00:57:53.639 --> 00:57:56.760
<v Speaker 2>maybe you know there's there's. It's tough because so much

1065
00:57:56.800 --> 00:58:00.559
<v Speaker 2>of the human experience is dependent on our psycho and

1066
00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:03.519
<v Speaker 2>we're not very good at evaluating what's real and what's

1067
00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:06.920
<v Speaker 2>not real. So you know, our goal is yeah, so

1068
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:09.360
<v Speaker 2>our goal is to try to like see what science

1069
00:58:09.400 --> 00:58:13.519
<v Speaker 2>can tell us, but we're really interested in the human experience.

1070
00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:17.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, we love the stories, we love folklore and history,

1071
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:19.559
<v Speaker 1>and we just try to keep open minds and.

1072
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:23.639
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, there about it.

1073
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:27.760
<v Speaker 1>We certainly enjoyed hearing the stories you've been telling us

1074
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:31.519
<v Speaker 1>and about your own experiences as well, and it's just

1075
00:58:32.119 --> 00:58:33.199
<v Speaker 1>such an incredible place.

1076
00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, I I don't know. I have to

1077
00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:37.559
<v Speaker 2>write the intro and the outro to this, and it's like,

1078
00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:42.760
<v Speaker 2>I part of me says, well, you know, there's a

1079
00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Wiseman once told me that the priming one receives prior

1080
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:51.320
<v Speaker 2>to experiencing something can have a huge impact on how

1081
00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:55.000
<v Speaker 2>one perceives it. Right. That Wiseman was Richard Wiseman. But

1082
00:58:59.320 --> 00:59:03.239
<v Speaker 2>the point is, you know, looking at psychology and all

1083
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:06.159
<v Speaker 2>these other things, you know, it's hard to say, but

1084
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:11.480
<v Speaker 2>you've got real people experiencing really strange things and it's, uh,

1085
00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:16.199
<v Speaker 2>it's it's interesting and regardless. I mean, we could say,

1086
00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:19.239
<v Speaker 2>oh no, it's it's all about priming, or oh no,

1087
00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:22.639
<v Speaker 2>these people are misinterpreting it, but the people are still

1088
00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:26.159
<v Speaker 2>experiencing something unusual and weird, and we wanted to talk

1089
00:59:26.199 --> 00:59:28.000
<v Speaker 2>about it. And we really appreciate your time.

1090
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:30.719
<v Speaker 5>Very welcome, Thanks very much for having me on. It's

1091
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:32.800
<v Speaker 5>been really good. I should probably put a plug in

1092
00:59:32.840 --> 00:59:35.239
<v Speaker 5>there about Hawaii parakon I will be there given some

1093
00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:38.320
<v Speaker 5>talks talking about Mackenzie, Poltry guys talking about the attacks

1094
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:40.519
<v Speaker 5>with a list of them, and.

1095
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:45.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, your job makes you go to Hawaii, how terrible.

1096
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:52.480
<v Speaker 1>Jealous? We do have a final question. We always like

1097
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:55.000
<v Speaker 1>to ask our guests, what's your favorite monster?

1098
00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:56.039
<v Speaker 7>This?

1099
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.519
<v Speaker 5>This is an interesting question for me and I I

1100
00:59:58.519 --> 00:59:59.679
<v Speaker 5>don't know if this it's a bit too high brow.

1101
00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:03.000
<v Speaker 5>I'm not sure here it goes right. So every night

1102
01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:07.199
<v Speaker 5>I've been working, I've been walking past Mackenzie's tomb McKenzie's

1103
01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:08.960
<v Speaker 5>too unless you get real up close to it. And

1104
01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:10.480
<v Speaker 5>in Edinburgh during.

1105
01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:13.000
<v Speaker 6>The winter months it is dark for much of a day,

1106
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:16.000
<v Speaker 6>for like four hours of a day. There's some sun

1107
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:18.800
<v Speaker 6>through the clouds if that, and the rest of the

1108
01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:23.480
<v Speaker 6>time it's pitch black, and Mackenzie's tomb just swallows up

1109
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:27.519
<v Speaker 6>the light swallows it up, and it's imposing. If you

1110
01:00:27.519 --> 01:00:30.519
<v Speaker 6>look at the Hawaiian paracn website you'll see a picture

1111
01:00:30.519 --> 01:00:32.920
<v Speaker 6>of it there right as Mackenzie's too. And when I

1112
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:35.320
<v Speaker 6>walk past it. For years, I've had the habit of

1113
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:39.039
<v Speaker 6>asking myself, I wonder, I wonder what would scare me

1114
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:41.679
<v Speaker 6>inside of there? I wonder what that experience inside of

1115
01:00:41.719 --> 01:00:45.400
<v Speaker 6>there would be that would genuinely get to me and

1116
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:48.599
<v Speaker 6>really free me out. And my mind just brings something

1117
01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:51.519
<v Speaker 6>up right, whether it's an image of something or a

1118
01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:55.199
<v Speaker 6>little video or eyes or I can a sound or

1119
01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:57.360
<v Speaker 6>some kind of experience, or just a sense inside of

1120
01:00:57.440 --> 01:01:01.039
<v Speaker 6>me of something there, it really gets to me.

1121
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:01.679
<v Speaker 5>And it's this.

1122
01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:06.320
<v Speaker 6>I think it's this nature of I'm a firm believer

1123
01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:08.760
<v Speaker 6>in that all hypnosis are self hypnosis. I think a

1124
01:01:08.840 --> 01:01:13.679
<v Speaker 6>couple of cursory thought experiments would demonstrate that to be accurate.

1125
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:18.880
<v Speaker 6>And people when they ask themselves some questions like this,

1126
01:01:19.079 --> 01:01:20.920
<v Speaker 6>and maybe they're not even aware of asking themselves this,

1127
01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:23.760
<v Speaker 6>it conjures up exactly the kind of stuff that's going

1128
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:26.840
<v Speaker 6>to get to them. And I think for me, like this,

1129
01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:30.239
<v Speaker 6>this custom made monster that I couldn't possibly explain to

1130
01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:34.599
<v Speaker 6>you and would almost certainly not be the same kind

1131
01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:37.679
<v Speaker 6>of monster that would inhabit inside somewhere for you to

1132
01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:39.079
<v Speaker 6>ask yourselves the same question.

1133
01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:40.760
<v Speaker 5>This.

1134
01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:42.920
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, like this, this is a bit that really gets me.

1135
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:45.039
<v Speaker 6>And it's it's quite it's quite thrilling, it's quite exciting

1136
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:46.960
<v Speaker 6>to titillate oneself like that.

1137
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:48.480
<v Speaker 2>It's really interesting.

1138
01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:50.840
<v Speaker 1>This has been so much fun hearing about this story.

1139
01:01:51.199 --> 01:01:53.559
<v Speaker 2>My god, I wish we could take a tour, right Karen,

1140
01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:54.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean like yeah.

1141
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, as I said one day someday.

1142
01:01:57.639 --> 01:01:59.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I got to get a passport.

1143
01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:02.239
<v Speaker 1>You don't have a passport.

1144
01:02:03.519 --> 01:02:05.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm a typical American. I don't go anywhere.

1145
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:09.679
<v Speaker 1>Anyway.

1146
01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, with the Navy, that's not really the same as it, right.

1147
01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:15.239
<v Speaker 1>It still need a possible that you mean you need

1148
01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:16.039
<v Speaker 1>to renew.

1149
01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:17.960
<v Speaker 2>It or you know, they give you a military passport.

1150
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:21.039
<v Speaker 2>It's totally different. Yeah, you go, Yeah, you get a

1151
01:02:21.159 --> 01:02:23.679
<v Speaker 2>Navy passport. When you leave the Navy, you have to

1152
01:02:23.800 --> 01:02:27.280
<v Speaker 2>forfeit it. So I don't have a civilian passport. So

1153
01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:30.480
<v Speaker 2>not important. I don't have the money to travel right

1154
01:02:30.519 --> 01:02:32.559
<v Speaker 2>now anyway, but I would love to come to the

1155
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:36.199
<v Speaker 2>UK and travel, make it to Scotland, Ireland, the Al

1156
01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:38.239
<v Speaker 2>of Sky, the Isle of Man. I've got so many

1157
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:40.559
<v Speaker 2>paranormal oriented sites I want to go see.

1158
01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:44.760
<v Speaker 5>So coming on to tours, my guest, both of you.

1159
01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, we totally will. Yeah, maybe we'll crowd fund.

1160
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.599
<v Speaker 1>Oh, thank you so much for your time and absolutely

1161
01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:56.000
<v Speaker 1>short notice as well.

1162
01:02:56.239 --> 01:02:58.320
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, thank you both. It's it's been real nice.

1163
01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:03.639
<v Speaker 2>You've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.

1164
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:06.320
<v Speaker 4>I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.

1165
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:08.760
<v Speaker 2>You just heard an interview with City of the Dead

1166
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:12.159
<v Speaker 2>tour guide Fred Fogerty. As I mentioned in the introduction,

1167
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:15.119
<v Speaker 2>Fred Carrot and I continued our discussion via email after

1168
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:16.960
<v Speaker 2>we ran out of time for the full set of

1169
01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:19.840
<v Speaker 2>questions that we'd prepared. It wouldn't be Monster Talk if

1170
01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:21.679
<v Speaker 2>we didn't at least remind folks of our stance on

1171
01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:25.280
<v Speaker 2>ghost phenomena that when you're faced with potential paranormal situations,

1172
01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:27.719
<v Speaker 2>we believe you should look at the individual aspects and

1173
01:03:27.800 --> 01:03:30.239
<v Speaker 2>not group everything together to explain it as a haunting.

1174
01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:32.679
<v Speaker 2>The skeptic of me always wants to know what are

1175
01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:36.480
<v Speaker 2>the testable, falsifiable aspects of such stories. So, thinking about this,

1176
01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I wrote Fred with a few questions. The first thing

1177
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:42.519
<v Speaker 2>I noticed was that online there's many many versions of

1178
01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:45.079
<v Speaker 2>the story about the homeless guy breaking into Mackenzie's tomb.

1179
01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:48.000
<v Speaker 2>What I wanted to know was did this event really happen,

1180
01:03:48.079 --> 01:03:49.960
<v Speaker 2>and if so, what evidence do we have because at

1181
01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:52.079
<v Speaker 2>this point it has definitely been corrupted by word of

1182
01:03:52.119 --> 01:03:55.960
<v Speaker 2>mouth retelling. So first, here's Fred's response about that incident.

1183
01:03:56.480 --> 01:04:00.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to attempt Fred's accent the man Graham.

1184
01:04:00.800 --> 01:04:03.599
<v Speaker 2>He exists. The event really happened, though not exactly as

1185
01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:06.239
<v Speaker 2>described on our tours and almost guaranteed to be very

1186
01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:09.639
<v Speaker 2>different to any other tour company's efforts. Currently, ghost tours

1187
01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:12.760
<v Speaker 2>is very competitive in Edinburgh and companies are keen to

1188
01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:15.960
<v Speaker 2>carve out their niche and justify how come they're not

1189
01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:17.360
<v Speaker 2>going into the prison itself.

1190
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:19.199
<v Speaker 5>I know he exists.

1191
01:04:19.599 --> 01:04:21.840
<v Speaker 2>He came to one of our tours and enjoyed it thoroughly,

1192
01:04:22.119 --> 01:04:23.639
<v Speaker 2>and I met him at the end in quizd him

1193
01:04:23.679 --> 01:04:26.920
<v Speaker 2>on the actual events. Since the police were called, I'm

1194
01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:28.880
<v Speaker 2>assuming there would be a police record of it, though

1195
01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how much is or was recorded. The

1196
01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:33.440
<v Speaker 2>date the homeless guy was said to have broken into

1197
01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie's tomb as nineteen ninety eight, as there's been quite

1198
01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:39.199
<v Speaker 2>a number of homeless people seeking refuge in various tombs

1199
01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:42.000
<v Speaker 2>and Greatfriars, and the police assigned to the case might

1200
01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:44.719
<v Speaker 2>not have specifically recorded or even known which tomb it was.

1201
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how easy it would be to find

1202
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the specific record of it with the police themselves. Fred

1203
01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:53.400
<v Speaker 2>did link to another ghost investigation site which was allowed

1204
01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:56.559
<v Speaker 2>to go into Mackenzie's tomb. We can't post those photos,

1205
01:04:56.599 --> 01:04:57.960
<v Speaker 2>but I'll put a link to the article in the

1206
01:04:58.000 --> 01:04:59.960
<v Speaker 2>show notes and you can scroll down to the photos

1207
01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:02.920
<v Speaker 2>and read the notes yourself. It certainly does look as

1208
01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:05.400
<v Speaker 2>though there are a lot of old bones under Mackenzie's coffin,

1209
01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:08.400
<v Speaker 2>and the flooring around it was perilous, but may have

1210
01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:11.280
<v Speaker 2>since been repaired. Those photos are from quite a while back,

1211
01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:13.599
<v Speaker 2>much closer to the time of the original break in story.

1212
01:05:13.880 --> 01:05:16.559
<v Speaker 2>The grating has been replaced and is permanently closed, and

1213
01:05:16.679 --> 01:05:20.639
<v Speaker 2>no tours were allowed in Mackenzie's tomb. Fred wanted me

1214
01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:23.199
<v Speaker 2>to make it clear that while people call the accompanying

1215
01:05:23.199 --> 01:05:26.639
<v Speaker 2>phenomena of the Mackenzie poltergeist, this is not widely believed

1216
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:29.159
<v Speaker 2>to be the ghost of Mackenzie by most ghost researchers,

1217
01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:33.719
<v Speaker 2>but rather a phenomena associated with this tomb. As time

1218
01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:36.280
<v Speaker 2>has passed, the stories have moved to the Black Mausoleum,

1219
01:05:36.519 --> 01:05:38.800
<v Speaker 2>which is also on the tour, and you actually go

1220
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:41.079
<v Speaker 2>inside it on the tour. I think you'll find that

1221
01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:43.800
<v Speaker 2>there's variants of these stories surrounding the tours, but this

1222
01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:46.800
<v Speaker 2>is normal for lore of this type. The stories of

1223
01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:49.960
<v Speaker 2>tour participants passing out and having seizures is interesting to me.

1224
01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:52.639
<v Speaker 2>I have family members with epilepsy, and this doesn't sound

1225
01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:54.840
<v Speaker 2>like what I've seen, but it does sound familiar to

1226
01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:57.960
<v Speaker 2>me from my research into demon possession cases. Before you

1227
01:05:58.039 --> 01:05:59.880
<v Speaker 2>call me up and ask me to turn my skeptics car,

1228
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:03.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about the topic from a skeptical perspective. I

1229
01:06:03.320 --> 01:06:05.039
<v Speaker 2>was not there, and I didn't see what these people

1230
01:06:05.079 --> 01:06:07.360
<v Speaker 2>went through, but the symptoms do sound quite a bit

1231
01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:10.280
<v Speaker 2>like the stuff I've seen with Bob Larson's exorcist ministry,

1232
01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:13.480
<v Speaker 2>which I could only describe as elaborate role playing. I

1233
01:06:13.519 --> 01:06:15.639
<v Speaker 2>can't be sure that's what happened here. I wasn't there,

1234
01:06:15.679 --> 01:06:18.320
<v Speaker 2>and even if I had been, I'm not medically qualified

1235
01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:21.639
<v Speaker 2>to diagnose anyone. What I can say is that the

1236
01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:25.280
<v Speaker 2>phenomenal claims would make for an interesting skeptical investigation. It

1237
01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:27.519
<v Speaker 2>would be hard to test, I think, but the first

1238
01:06:27.559 --> 01:06:29.360
<v Speaker 2>thing that comes to mind would be to build some

1239
01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:32.280
<v Speaker 2>tour groups composed of volunteers who would let you photograph

1240
01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:34.079
<v Speaker 2>their arms and legs prior to the tour, and then

1241
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:36.159
<v Speaker 2>video of the tour, and then afterwards see if anyone

1242
01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:39.760
<v Speaker 2>reports injuries that aren't captured on video or film. That's

1243
01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:41.960
<v Speaker 2>very rough thinking, and a good experiment would need a

1244
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.960
<v Speaker 2>lot more design than that and a lot of prep work.

1245
01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I haven't had enough time to think about it, and

1246
01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know if anyone's interested in looking into

1247
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:51.360
<v Speaker 2>this to that level. But it's very easy for skeptical

1248
01:06:51.400 --> 01:06:54.000
<v Speaker 2>people to say, oh, this is just a post talk

1249
01:06:54.119 --> 01:06:57.320
<v Speaker 2>rationalization of pre existing injuries as components of a haunting.

1250
01:06:58.159 --> 01:06:59.719
<v Speaker 2>But I think that falls into the kind of thinking

1251
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.960
<v Speaker 2>which get skeptics accused of being armchair researchers. And I'd

1252
01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:05.280
<v Speaker 2>love to look at from a more statistical and practical

1253
01:07:05.320 --> 01:07:08.400
<v Speaker 2>approach and to see more about the natures of the injuries.

1254
01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:11.760
<v Speaker 2>Right this minute, that's financially impossible for caring to myself,

1255
01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:13.880
<v Speaker 2>but maybe some of our UK listeners can have a look.

1256
01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:16.079
<v Speaker 2>At any rate, it sounds like you'd have a fun

1257
01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:19.360
<v Speaker 2>and historically interesting tour of a fascinating site, and if

1258
01:07:19.400 --> 01:07:21.960
<v Speaker 2>thread's any indication, you'll certainly be entertained, even if you

1259
01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:26.519
<v Speaker 2>don't solve the mystery or encounter in any oddities. Monster

1260
01:07:26.639 --> 01:07:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Talk is an official podcast of Skeptic magazine. The views

1261
01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:32.400
<v Speaker 2>expressed on this show or those of myself and my guests,

1262
01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:35.320
<v Speaker 2>and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of Skeptic Magazine or

1263
01:07:35.320 --> 01:07:36.320
<v Speaker 2>the Skeptic Society.

1264
01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:39.880
<v Speaker 8>We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Monster Talk. Each

1265
01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:42.159
<v Speaker 8>episode we strive to bring you the best in monster

1266
01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:45.599
<v Speaker 8>related content, with a focus on bringing scientific skepticism into

1267
01:07:45.639 --> 01:07:49.000
<v Speaker 8>the conversation. If you enjoy Monster Talk, we now have

1268
01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:51.760
<v Speaker 8>a variety of ways to support the show, all with

1269
01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:55.559
<v Speaker 8>convenient links at monster talk dot org forge slash support.

1270
01:07:56.280 --> 01:08:00.280
<v Speaker 8>That's monster talk dot org forge slash Support. There we

1271
01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:02.320
<v Speaker 8>have links to our Patreon pages as well as a

1272
01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:05.159
<v Speaker 8>donation button. A great way to support the show is

1273
01:08:05.199 --> 01:08:08.400
<v Speaker 8>to buy us books from our Amazon Monster Talk wish list,

1274
01:08:08.719 --> 01:08:12.360
<v Speaker 8>which directly helps us with our research. We love usbooks

1275
01:08:12.480 --> 01:08:14.559
<v Speaker 8>very much, so don't feel compelled to buy new ones,

1276
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:16.880
<v Speaker 8>and we love Kindle, and we can share our digital

1277
01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:20.960
<v Speaker 8>library with each other. Finally, without spending any money at all,

1278
01:08:21.079 --> 01:08:23.359
<v Speaker 8>you can support us by leaving a positive review at

1279
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:27.680
<v Speaker 8>iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Positive reviews help

1280
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:29.920
<v Speaker 8>keep us visible in iTunes, which is a great way

1281
01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:32.840
<v Speaker 8>to help us find new listeners. And please share our

1282
01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:35.079
<v Speaker 8>show on your favorite social media platforms.

1283
01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:49.920
<v Speaker 7>Save the data for a colossal Psicon twenty eighteen. Bigger venue,

1284
01:08:50.239 --> 01:08:56.399
<v Speaker 7>biggest stars, bigger ideas, bigger fun, Las Vegas, October eighteenth

1285
01:08:56.600 --> 01:09:02.600
<v Speaker 7>to the twenty first, twenty eighteen. Sikon is already one

1286
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:07.159
<v Speaker 7>of the planet's premiere skeptical conferences, where hundreds of critical

1287
01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:10.319
<v Speaker 7>thinkers come to Las Vegas, the City of Illusions, to

1288
01:09:10.439 --> 01:09:14.399
<v Speaker 7>hear from the leading lights of science and skepticism. For

1289
01:09:14.520 --> 01:09:18.119
<v Speaker 7>twenty eighteen, we want Sikon to be bigger than ever.

1290
01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:23.880
<v Speaker 7>We've even booked a bigger hotel. Come to Las Vegas

1291
01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:27.760
<v Speaker 7>at the Westgate Resort and Casino to see the brilliant

1292
01:09:27.840 --> 01:09:33.399
<v Speaker 7>and hilarious Stephen Frye on stage with Richard Dawkins, an

1293
01:09:33.479 --> 01:09:37.239
<v Speaker 7>opening night talk by Stephen Pinker on the ideas behind

1294
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:42.680
<v Speaker 7>his new book Enlightenment Now the triumphant return of James

1295
01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:49.880
<v Speaker 7>the Amazing Randy, plus New York Times science writer Carl Zimmer,

1296
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:56.600
<v Speaker 7>psychologist and mimetics expert Susan Blackmore, the Cybabe, Yvette Dontemnt,

1297
01:09:57.079 --> 01:10:01.039
<v Speaker 7>virologist and advocate for science based medicine, Paul Offert, and

1298
01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:05.760
<v Speaker 7>many many more, along with comic musician George Rubb serving

1299
01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:09.920
<v Speaker 7>as master of Ceremonies, a magic show from Banachek, author

1300
01:10:09.960 --> 01:10:16.399
<v Speaker 7>book signings, and of course a Halloween costume party. It's

1301
01:10:16.520 --> 01:10:21.680
<v Speaker 7>true conspiracy theorists, quax peddling, fake medicine, and the deniers

1302
01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:26.600
<v Speaker 7>of evolution, climate change, and vaccine science are bigger threats

1303
01:10:26.680 --> 01:10:30.640
<v Speaker 7>than ever. With saikon twenty eighteen, Let's show them that

1304
01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:36.199
<v Speaker 7>they have just met their match. We'll see you in

1305
01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:39.359
<v Speaker 7>Las Vegas. For more information and to book your tickets,

1306
01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:46.079
<v Speaker 7>visit csiconference dot org. That Psyconference dot org.

1307
01:10:55.359 --> 01:10:58.680
<v Speaker 2>Master talk theme music is by Pete Stealing Monkeys. As always,

1308
01:10:59.079 --> 01:10:59.880
<v Speaker 2>thanks for listing.

1309
01:11:39.560 --> 01:11:42.600
<v Speaker 9>Want to stay abreast of the latest from Skeptic magazine

1310
01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:47.119
<v Speaker 9>and the Skeptic Society. Want cutting edge skeptical articles delivered

1311
01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:52.119
<v Speaker 9>straight to your inbox every week, then subscribe to e Skeptic,

1312
01:11:52.600 --> 01:11:56.880
<v Speaker 9>the free electronic newsletter of the Skeptic Society. Visit Skeptic

1313
01:11:57.039 --> 01:11:57.720
<v Speaker 9>dot com.

1314
01:11:57.800 --> 01:11:59.399
<v Speaker 2>To sign up right.

1315
01:12:00.279 --> 01:12:04.680
<v Speaker 6>We give them only the food, water, and shelter acquad

1316
01:12:05.159 --> 01:12:08.960
<v Speaker 6>just to really prolong this suffering and just to really

1317
01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:11.920
<v Speaker 6>drag it out so that as many people as possible

1318
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:14.000
<v Speaker 6>can endure five months of this.

1319
01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:18.800
<v Speaker 2>So like one hogis for every five people that kind

1320
01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:35.000
<v Speaker 2>of thing that was terrible. Right, you've been listening to

1321
01:12:35.119 --> 01:12:37.239
<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.

1322
01:12:37.600 --> 01:12:39.880
<v Speaker 4>I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.

1323
01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:42.319
<v Speaker 2>You just heard an interview with City of the Dead

1324
01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:45.760
<v Speaker 2>tour guide Fred Fogerty. As I mentioned in the introduction,

1325
01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Fred Carrot and I continued our discussion via email after

1326
01:12:48.760 --> 01:12:50.560
<v Speaker 2>we ran out of time for the full set of

1327
01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:53.439
<v Speaker 2>questions that we'd prepared. It wouldn't be Monster Talk if

1328
01:12:53.439 --> 01:12:55.239
<v Speaker 2>we didn't at least remind folks of our stance on

1329
01:12:55.359 --> 01:12:58.840
<v Speaker 2>ghost phenomena that when you're faced with potential paranormal situations,

1330
01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:00.960
<v Speaker 2>we believe you should look at the end visual aspects

1331
01:13:01.239 --> 01:13:03.840
<v Speaker 2>and not group everything together to explain it as a haunting.

1332
01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:06.239
<v Speaker 2>The skeptic of me always wants to know what are

1333
01:13:06.279 --> 01:13:10.079
<v Speaker 2>the testable, falsifiable aspects of such stories. So, thinking about this,

1334
01:13:10.199 --> 01:13:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I wrote Fred with a few questions. The first thing

1335
01:13:13.079 --> 01:13:16.079
<v Speaker 2>I noticed was that online there's many many versions of

1336
01:13:16.119 --> 01:13:18.640
<v Speaker 2>the story about the homeless guy breaking into Mackenzie's tomb.

1337
01:13:19.039 --> 01:13:21.239
<v Speaker 2>What I wanted to know was did this event really

1338
01:13:21.319 --> 01:13:23.439
<v Speaker 2>happen and if so, what evidence do we have? Because

1339
01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:26.399
<v Speaker 2>this point has definitely been corrupted by word of mouth retelling.

1340
01:13:27.159 --> 01:13:30.279
<v Speaker 2>So first, here's Fred's response about that incident. I'm not

1341
01:13:30.359 --> 01:13:34.119
<v Speaker 2>going to attempt Fred's accent. The man's name is Graham.

1342
01:13:34.359 --> 01:13:37.199
<v Speaker 2>He exists. The event really happened, though not exactly as

1343
01:13:37.239 --> 01:13:39.840
<v Speaker 2>described on our tours, and almost guaranteed to be very

1344
01:13:39.880 --> 01:13:43.239
<v Speaker 2>different to any other tour company's efforts. Currently, ghost tours

1345
01:13:43.359 --> 01:13:46.319
<v Speaker 2>is very competitive in Edinburgh and companies are keen to

1346
01:13:46.399 --> 01:13:49.520
<v Speaker 2>carve out their niche and justify how come they're not

1347
01:13:49.640 --> 01:13:50.960
<v Speaker 2>going into the prison itself.

1348
01:13:51.399 --> 01:13:52.760
<v Speaker 5>I know he exists.

1349
01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:55.439
<v Speaker 2>He came to one of our tours and enjoyed it thoroughly,

1350
01:13:55.720 --> 01:13:57.279
<v Speaker 2>and I met him at the end in quisdom on

1351
01:13:57.319 --> 01:14:00.920
<v Speaker 2>the actual events. Since the police were called, I'm assuming

1352
01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:02.520
<v Speaker 2>there would be a police record of it, though I

1353
01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:04.920
<v Speaker 2>don't know how much is or was recorded. The date

1354
01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:07.560
<v Speaker 2>the homeless guy was said to have broken into Mackenzie's

1355
01:14:07.560 --> 01:14:10.039
<v Speaker 2>tomb as nineteen ninety eight, as there's been quite a

1356
01:14:10.119 --> 01:14:13.479
<v Speaker 2>number of homeless people seeking refuge in various tombs in Greyfriars,

1357
01:14:13.880 --> 01:14:15.840
<v Speaker 2>and the police assigned to the case might not have

1358
01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:18.760
<v Speaker 2>specifically recorded or even known which tomb it was. I

1359
01:14:18.840 --> 01:14:20.399
<v Speaker 2>don't know how easy it would be to find the

1360
01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:24.239
<v Speaker 2>specific record of it with the police themselves. Fred did

1361
01:14:24.319 --> 01:14:27.039
<v Speaker 2>link to another ghost investigation site which was allowed to

1362
01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.199
<v Speaker 2>go into Mackenzie's tomb. We can't post those photos, but

1363
01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:31.800
<v Speaker 2>I'll put a link to the article in the show

1364
01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:33.680
<v Speaker 2>notes and you can scroll down to the photos and

1365
01:14:33.720 --> 01:14:36.640
<v Speaker 2>read the notes yourself. It certainly does look as though

1366
01:14:36.680 --> 01:14:39.000
<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of old bones under Mackenzie's coffin,

1367
01:14:39.279 --> 01:14:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and the flooring around it was perilous but may have

1368
01:14:42.039 --> 01:14:44.840
<v Speaker 2>since been repaired. Those photos are from quite a while back,

1369
01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:47.199
<v Speaker 2>much closer to the time of the original break in story.

1370
01:14:47.479 --> 01:14:50.159
<v Speaker 2>The grating has been replaced, it is permanently closed and

1371
01:14:50.279 --> 01:14:54.199
<v Speaker 2>no tours are allowed in Mackenzie's tomb. Fred wanted me

1372
01:14:54.279 --> 01:14:56.760
<v Speaker 2>to make it clear that while people call the accompanying

1373
01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:00.000
<v Speaker 2>phenomena of the Mackenzie Poultergeist, this is not widely believe

1374
01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:02.720
<v Speaker 2>to be the ghost of Mackenzie and by most ghost researchers,

1375
01:15:03.159 --> 01:15:07.279
<v Speaker 2>but rather a phenomena associated with this tomb. As time

1376
01:15:07.319 --> 01:15:09.880
<v Speaker 2>has passed, the stories have moved to the Black Mausoleum,

1377
01:15:10.119 --> 01:15:12.359
<v Speaker 2>which is also on the tour, and you actually go

1378
01:15:12.439 --> 01:15:14.640
<v Speaker 2>inside it on the tour, I think you'll find that

1379
01:15:14.680 --> 01:15:17.399
<v Speaker 2>there's variants of these stories surrounding the tours, but this

1380
01:15:17.560 --> 01:15:20.359
<v Speaker 2>is normal for lore of this type. The stories of

1381
01:15:20.479 --> 01:15:23.560
<v Speaker 2>tour participants passing out and having seizures is interesting to me.

1382
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:26.199
<v Speaker 2>I have family members with epilepsy, and this doesn't sound

1383
01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:28.439
<v Speaker 2>like what I've seen, but it does sound familiar to

1384
01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:31.520
<v Speaker 2>me from my research into demon possession cases. Before you

1385
01:15:31.640 --> 01:15:32.880
<v Speaker 2>call me up and ask me to turn in my

1386
01:15:32.920 --> 01:15:36.359
<v Speaker 2>skeptics card, I'm talking about the topic from a skeptical perspective.

1387
01:15:36.680 --> 01:15:38.359
<v Speaker 2>I was not there, and I didn't see what these

1388
01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:40.760
<v Speaker 2>people went through, but the symptoms do sound quite a

1389
01:15:40.840 --> 01:15:43.840
<v Speaker 2>bit like the stuff I've seen with Bob Larson's exorcist ministry,

1390
01:15:44.520 --> 01:15:47.039
<v Speaker 2>which I could only describe as elaborate role playing. I

1391
01:15:47.119 --> 01:15:49.199
<v Speaker 2>can't be sure that's what happened here. I wasn't there,

1392
01:15:49.239 --> 01:15:51.920
<v Speaker 2>and even if I had been, I'm not medically qualified

1393
01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:55.199
<v Speaker 2>to diagnose anyone. What I can say is that the

1394
01:15:55.279 --> 01:15:58.880
<v Speaker 2>phenomenal claims would make for an interesting skeptical investigation. It

1395
01:15:58.880 --> 01:16:01.239
<v Speaker 2>would be hard to test think, but the first thing

1396
01:16:01.319 --> 01:16:03.239
<v Speaker 2>that comes to mind would be to build some tour

1397
01:16:03.279 --> 01:16:06.000
<v Speaker 2>groups composed of volunteers who would let you photograph their

1398
01:16:06.079 --> 01:16:08.000
<v Speaker 2>arms and legs prior to the tour, and then video

1399
01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:10.119
<v Speaker 2>of the tour and then afterwards see if anyone reports

1400
01:16:10.159 --> 01:16:13.600
<v Speaker 2>injuries that aren't captured on video or film. That's very

1401
01:16:13.680 --> 01:16:15.720
<v Speaker 2>rough thinking, and a good experiment would need a lot

1402
01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:17.520
<v Speaker 2>more design than that and a lot of prep work.

1403
01:16:18.039 --> 01:16:19.520
<v Speaker 2>I haven't had enough time to think about it, and

1404
01:16:19.600 --> 01:16:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know if anyone's interested in looking into

1405
01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:24.960
<v Speaker 2>this to that level. But it's very easy for skeptical

1406
01:16:25.000 --> 01:16:27.560
<v Speaker 2>people to say, oh, this is just a post talk

1407
01:16:27.720 --> 01:16:30.880
<v Speaker 2>rationalization of pre existing injuries as components of a haunting.

1408
01:16:31.720 --> 01:16:33.359
<v Speaker 2>But I think that falls into the kind of thinking

1409
01:16:33.399 --> 01:16:36.560
<v Speaker 2>which gets skeptics accused of being armchair researchers. And I'd

1410
01:16:36.600 --> 01:16:38.880
<v Speaker 2>love to look at from a more statistical and practical

1411
01:16:38.880 --> 01:16:41.960
<v Speaker 2>approach and to see more about the natures of the injuries.

1412
01:16:42.399 --> 01:16:45.319
<v Speaker 2>Right this minute, that's financially impossible for caring to myself,

1413
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:47.439
<v Speaker 2>but maybe some of our UK listeners can have a look.

1414
01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:49.680
<v Speaker 2>At any rate, it sounds like you'd have a fun

1415
01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:52.920
<v Speaker 2>and historically interesting tour of a fascinating site, and if

1416
01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:55.560
<v Speaker 2>thread's any indication, you'll certainly be entertained even if you

1417
01:16:55.600 --> 01:17:00.600
<v Speaker 2>don't solve the mystery. Orn't counter in Any Oddities is

1418
01:17:00.640 --> 01:17:04.000
<v Speaker 2>an official podcast of Skeptic Magazine. The views expressed on

1419
01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:06.279
<v Speaker 2>this show or those of myself and my guests, and

1420
01:17:06.359 --> 01:17:08.960
<v Speaker 2>don't necessarily reflect the opinions of Skeptic Magazine or the

1421
01:17:09.000 --> 01:17:09.880
<v Speaker 2>Skeptic Society.

1422
01:17:10.359 --> 01:17:13.439
<v Speaker 8>We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Monster Talk. Each

1423
01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:15.760
<v Speaker 8>episode we strive to bring you the best in monster

1424
01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:19.159
<v Speaker 8>related content, with a focus on bringing scientific skepticism into

1425
01:17:19.239 --> 01:17:22.560
<v Speaker 8>the conversation. If you enjoy Monster Talk, we now have

1426
01:17:22.640 --> 01:17:25.359
<v Speaker 8>a variety of ways to support the show, all with

1427
01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:29.119
<v Speaker 8>convenient links at monster talk dot org forge slash support.

1428
01:17:29.840 --> 01:17:33.800
<v Speaker 8>That's monster talk dot org forge slash Support. There, we

1429
01:17:33.920 --> 01:17:35.880
<v Speaker 8>have links to our Patreon pages, as well as a

1430
01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:38.760
<v Speaker 8>donation button. A great way to support the show is

1431
01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:41.960
<v Speaker 8>to buy us books from our Amazon Monster Talk wish list,

1432
01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:45.920
<v Speaker 8>which directly helps us with our research. We love usbooks

1433
01:17:46.079 --> 01:17:48.119
<v Speaker 8>very much, so don't feel compelled to buy new ones,

1434
01:17:48.199 --> 01:17:50.439
<v Speaker 8>and we love Kindle and we can share our digital

1435
01:17:50.520 --> 01:17:54.560
<v Speaker 8>library with each other. Finally, without spending any money at all,

1436
01:17:54.640 --> 01:17:56.920
<v Speaker 8>you can support us by leaving a positive review at

1437
01:17:57.000 --> 01:18:01.239
<v Speaker 8>iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Positive reviews help

1438
01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:03.520
<v Speaker 8>keep us visible in iTunes, which is a great way

1439
01:18:03.560 --> 01:18:06.439
<v Speaker 8>to help us find new listeners. And please share our

1440
01:18:06.479 --> 01:18:08.640
<v Speaker 8>show on your favorite social media platforms.

1441
01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:23.479
<v Speaker 7>Save the data for a colossal Siicon twenty eighteen. Bigger venue,

1442
01:18:23.800 --> 01:18:29.960
<v Speaker 7>bigger stars, bigger ideas, bigger fun. Las Vegas, October eighteenth

1443
01:18:30.159 --> 01:18:36.159
<v Speaker 7>to the twenty first. Twenty eighteen Siicon is already one

1444
01:18:36.199 --> 01:18:40.720
<v Speaker 7>of the planet's premiere skeptical conferences, where hundreds of critical

1445
01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:43.920
<v Speaker 7>thinkers come to Las Vegas, the City of Illusions, to

1446
01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:47.960
<v Speaker 7>hear from the leading lights of science and skepticism. For

1447
01:18:48.079 --> 01:18:51.680
<v Speaker 7>twenty eighteen, we want Sichon to be bigger than ever.

1448
01:18:52.399 --> 01:18:57.479
<v Speaker 7>We've even booked a bigger hotel. Come to Las Vegas

1449
01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:01.359
<v Speaker 7>at the Westgate Resort and Casino to see the brilliant

1450
01:19:01.399 --> 01:19:06.960
<v Speaker 7>and hilarious Stephen Frye on stage with Richard Dawkins. An

1451
01:19:07.039 --> 01:19:10.800
<v Speaker 7>opening night talk by Stephen Piner on the ideas behind

1452
01:19:10.880 --> 01:19:16.279
<v Speaker 7>his new book, Enlightenment Now, the triumphant return of James,

1453
01:19:16.479 --> 01:19:23.479
<v Speaker 7>the Amazing Randy, plus New York Times science writer Carl Zimmer,

1454
01:19:24.079 --> 01:19:30.159
<v Speaker 7>psychologist and mimetics expert, Susan Blackmore, the Cybabe, Yvette Dontemont,

1455
01:19:30.640 --> 01:19:34.600
<v Speaker 7>virologist and advocate for science based medicine, Paul Offert, and

1456
01:19:34.880 --> 01:19:39.359
<v Speaker 7>many many more, along with comic musician George Rubb serving

1457
01:19:39.520 --> 01:19:43.479
<v Speaker 7>as master of ceremonies, a magic show from Banachek, author

1458
01:19:43.520 --> 01:19:49.960
<v Speaker 7>book signings, and of course a Halloween costume party. It's

1459
01:19:50.119 --> 01:19:55.279
<v Speaker 7>true conspiracy theorists, quax peddling, fake medicine, and the deniers

1460
01:19:55.319 --> 01:20:00.000
<v Speaker 7>of evolution, climate change, and vaccine science are bigger threat.

1461
01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:03.960
<v Speaker 7>It's than ever With psikon twenty eighteen, Let's show them

1462
01:20:04.159 --> 01:20:09.640
<v Speaker 7>that they have just met their match. We'll see you

1463
01:20:09.720 --> 01:20:12.960
<v Speaker 7>in Las Vegas. For more information and to book your tickets,

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<v Speaker 7>visit csiconference dot org that Psyconference dot org.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk. The music is by Peat Stealing Monkeys. As always,

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01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:33.479
<v Speaker 2>thanks for listening.

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<v Speaker 9>Want to stay abreast of the latest from Skeptic Magazine

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01:21:16.319 --> 01:21:20.720
<v Speaker 9>and the Skeptic Society. Want cutting edge skeptical articles delivered

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01:21:20.760 --> 01:21:25.720
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01:21:26.199 --> 01:21:30.439
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01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:33.600
<v Speaker 9>dot com to sign up right now.

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<v Speaker 6>We give them only the food, water, and shelter required,

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01:21:38.760 --> 01:21:42.960
<v Speaker 6>just to really prolong this suffering, just to really drag

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<v Speaker 6>it out, so that as many people as possible can

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<v Speaker 6>endure five months of this.

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<v Speaker 2>So like one Hoggis for every five people, that kind

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01:21:52.399 --> 01:22:02.000
<v Speaker 2>of thing that was terrible, right,