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<v Speaker 1>I'd like to give our feast callers the benefit of

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<v Speaker 1>the doubt, but I can't be evolution consciousness, the origins

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<v Speaker 1>of the cosmos, any phenomena that we have good naturalist

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<v Speaker 1>explanations for, plenty of evidence behind. I'm so so tired

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<v Speaker 1>of it always boiling down to I don't understand this.

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<v Speaker 1>Therefore it must be God. Your personal incredulity is causing

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<v Speaker 1>you to commit the God of the Gaps fallacy. And

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<v Speaker 1>more than that, you're making gaps to shove your God into.

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<v Speaker 1>God has never been in those gaps ever. But if

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<v Speaker 1>you disagree, call the show. It's start now.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome everyone. Today is August tenth, twenty twenty five. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>your host, Doctor Bennon. With me today is Jamie the

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<v Speaker 2>Blind Liamy. How are you doing, Jamie?

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<v Speaker 1>I am a act similarly of a copy of a

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<v Speaker 1>man in a place in a hat without a hat.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm FINEO.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And especially talking about God of the Gap,

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<v Speaker 2>sounds like there's a lot of frustration with with more

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<v Speaker 2>years going back to this priest suppositional position of well,

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<v Speaker 2>something must be real there for God and not not

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<v Speaker 2>just being willing to say, you know, maybe we don't

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<v Speaker 2>know the answer to everything, So I'm definitely frustrated about

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<v Speaker 2>that as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean people say that God, God is the

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<v Speaker 1>is the most likely answer, or the most logical answer,

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<v Speaker 1>or the most believable answers. Well, it's an answer, but

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<v Speaker 1>in my estimation, not a very good one, because I

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<v Speaker 1>like evidence, you know, to be to be provided for

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<v Speaker 1>such things rather than just but it has to be,

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<v Speaker 1>it just has to be. I find that not at

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<v Speaker 1>all compelling. And I've been at this long enough now

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<v Speaker 1>to now find it just grating, just tiring. There are

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<v Speaker 1>people who've been in this space a lot longer than

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<v Speaker 1>me and have a lot more credentials than I do,

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<v Speaker 1>and much like yourself, Ben, I don't know how you

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<v Speaker 1>haven't just gone completely start raving Bongers about it, having

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with the same arguments over and over and

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<v Speaker 1>over again.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's that idea that humans are very patterned sinking animals,

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<v Speaker 2>and we want to just into it that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>A plus B equal C, and will just jump from

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<v Speaker 2>A to C and not think about what the B is,

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<v Speaker 2>or we'll just not think about other possibilities of answers.

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<v Speaker 2>And when we're talking on this show, we're not saying,

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<v Speaker 2>don't have God as a possibility, like keep your options open,

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<v Speaker 2>but be willing to consider other possibilities and be willing

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<v Speaker 2>to be wrong. And if there's a good reason to

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<v Speaker 2>believe in God or spiritualism or any kind of belief system,

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<v Speaker 2>we should be able to arrive at that conclusion if

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<v Speaker 2>we considered other options. So it's just let's have a conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>How do we know that this is the one answer?

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<v Speaker 2>How do we rule out these other ones? And I'd

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<v Speaker 2>love some people to call in today and answer that.

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<v Speaker 2>For us, it can be about God. We can do

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<v Speaker 2>that same conversation about aliens or extraterrestrials. We can have

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<v Speaker 2>the same conversation about ghosts, about spiritualism, about pantheism, deism,

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<v Speaker 2>any belief system. Bring it to us and I want

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about it. Or even if you have a

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<v Speaker 2>story of something that happened to you that seems like

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<v Speaker 2>it isn't entirely natural, call in. We can talk about

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<v Speaker 2>why that may have happened, why we think that may

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<v Speaker 2>have happened. Because this is a call in show, this

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<v Speaker 2>is talking. Then we're open to all of your questions

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<v Speaker 2>about these topics and about morality, philosophy, science, secular humanism.

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<v Speaker 2>Bring us all the topics that you want to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about and we can discuss that with you. Talk Heathen

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<v Speaker 2>is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin, a

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<v Speaker 2>five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the

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<v Speaker 2>promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation

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<v Speaker 2>of religion and government. And like I said, this is

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<v Speaker 2>a call in show. We want to hear from you,

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<v Speaker 2>So get your calls in at five to one two

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<v Speaker 2>nine nine one nine two four two, or you can

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<v Speaker 2>go to your browser at tiny dot cc slash call thch.

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<v Speaker 2>We're here live every Sunday at one pm Central on YouTube,

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<v Speaker 2>but you can also find us wherever you get your podcasts,

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<v Speaker 2>so look for the podcast. Also follow us on Patreon,

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<v Speaker 2>where you can get access to bonus content like early

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<v Speaker 2>releases of episodes and some other other fancy things that

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<v Speaker 2>you get. And also you might have your name right

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<v Speaker 2>out later on in the show when we get to

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<v Speaker 2>that section. But enough of that, we have somebody special

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<v Speaker 2>that we'd like to bring up on on the stage

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<v Speaker 2>right now, and that is our backup post. Eli here

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<v Speaker 2>to deliver us the question of the week.

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<v Speaker 4>Hey, guys, how's it on? So last week we asked

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<v Speaker 4>you guys, no, sorry, that's next news. What prayer will

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<v Speaker 4>God always answer? And here's the top three answers we

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<v Speaker 4>got from last week. So number three, see not what

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<v Speaker 4>prayer does God almost always answer? The one from priests, reverends, pastors,

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<v Speaker 4>et cetera. Oh, Lord, please make sure they don't actually

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<v Speaker 4>read the Bible themselves. Make them accept what I tell

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<v Speaker 4>them the Bible says.

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<v Speaker 5>It's a pretty good one.

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<v Speaker 1>That's great.

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<v Speaker 4>Yep, then you're in trouble if they start reading it.

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<v Speaker 4>Number two X million, God always answers when I pray,

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<v Speaker 4>Dear God, please never bother me.

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<v Speaker 3>That's fantastic. That is fantastic.

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<v Speaker 4>The one hundred success right on that one. And then

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<v Speaker 4>number one also x million, well done. God always answers

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<v Speaker 4>when I pray, Dear God, please imbue your followers with

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<v Speaker 4>an impiously arrogant insufferability as great, pretty high success on

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<v Speaker 4>that one. So yeah, those are a pretty good well

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<v Speaker 4>done everybody.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, Okay.

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<v Speaker 4>Next week's question is going to be what gap can

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<v Speaker 4>God always fit into? Jamie question?

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<v Speaker 1>An answer for that one, Yeah, so you can fit

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<v Speaker 1>in the gap on the dial of your shower between

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<v Speaker 1>there and there, which is where the water is comfortable

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<v Speaker 1>between scalding hot and freezing cold. That's where God lives.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a good one, Doctor Ben. Did you have an

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<v Speaker 4>answer as well?

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<v Speaker 2>My answer is very terrible and I'm kind of ashamed

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<v Speaker 2>for this, but the Bible made me say this answer.

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<v Speaker 3>Mary, that's good. It's a good answer. I just have.

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<v Speaker 4>This is this is my answer. It's just my that's

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<v Speaker 4>my God of the gaps right there. Soh yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 4>that's it for me. The question for next week on

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<v Speaker 4>gap can always? Can God always fit in to and

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<v Speaker 4>put your answers in the comments not in live chat

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<v Speaker 4>you won't see it.

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<v Speaker 1>Than we are now approaching immaculate conception station. Mind the gap,

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<v Speaker 1>mind the.

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<v Speaker 3>Games, yes for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>And some other people who uh may be fitting in

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<v Speaker 2>some kind of gap somewhere are the crew.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's see what the crew is doing.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Crewe we have our video and

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<v Speaker 2>audio people as always, moderators, notes and stamps people, and

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<v Speaker 2>the call screeners. Thank you so much for working very

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<v Speaker 2>hard every week for these shows. We would not will

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<v Speaker 2>not be able to do this without you.

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<v Speaker 1>Truly, we stand on the shoulders of giants.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely giants that can also fit into the gap.

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<v Speaker 1>But get some.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we need a spackle for these gaps.

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<v Speaker 2>We do have a theist caller on the line, Steve.

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<v Speaker 2>He him from Nebras. Sounds like you want to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about photographic evidence of artificial satellites. Tell us a bit

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<v Speaker 2>about your position.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, so yeah, Hi Jamie and doctor Benswigan. I'm

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<v Speaker 6>calling this week to discuss a very recent scientific paper

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<v Speaker 6>titled aligned Multiple Transient Events and the first Palmar Sky Survey.

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<v Speaker 6>And this research is led by astronomer doctor Beatrice Vral

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<v Speaker 6>and the Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics, and the research

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<v Speaker 6>study has uncovered photographic evidence found in an analysis of

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<v Speaker 6>nearly three hundred thousand photographic plates from the Polymer Sky

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<v Speaker 6>Survey that captured the images of pezens of transient objects

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<v Speaker 6>which will reflective of sunlight high above the Earth's atmosphere

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<v Speaker 6>well before a launch of the earliest satellites from Earth.

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<v Speaker 6>And the appearance of these non human technological artifacts hovering

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<v Speaker 6>in space above for coincides with nuclear testing events and

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<v Speaker 6>also coincides with a UAP math citing event that occurred

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<v Speaker 6>on Unduly twenty seventh, nineteen fifty two, when multiple UFOs

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<v Speaker 6>over Washington.

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<v Speaker 4>D C.

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<v Speaker 6>Were tracked by radiar. So I think we've got.

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<v Speaker 3>Can you share with me the study title again so

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<v Speaker 3>I can look for it.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, So yeah, it's a very recent it's a pre

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<v Speaker 6>it's a pre print, so it hasn't been subject to

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<v Speaker 6>pure review yet.

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<v Speaker 2>This is not so this is not a published view.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is not a published study. This is something

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<v Speaker 2>But you said it hasn't been period, It was not

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<v Speaker 2>in a journal somewhere.

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<v Speaker 6>It will be. Yeah, hopefully it does get to that point,

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<v Speaker 6>and it doesn't.

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<v Speaker 3>Get So we're in a position.

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<v Speaker 2>We're in a position where the thing that you are

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<v Speaker 2>citing is not yet evaluated and vetted for accuracy and applicability. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>so we're already the impact the impact of the study

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<v Speaker 2>that that you're using already is not is not yet

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<v Speaker 2>to be deemed credible.

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<v Speaker 6>It will be. It's it's you can't say that though.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't just assert that something will be credible because

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<v Speaker 2>you say it is. Are you are you a peer

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<v Speaker 2>of these scientists? Uh? Like? Are are you an astronomer?

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<v Speaker 2>Are you a cosmologist?

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<v Speaker 7>Like?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you would you? Are you rating yourself as a

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<v Speaker 2>part of that.

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<v Speaker 6>No, I study. I study, But I'm not I'm not

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<v Speaker 6>an expert, you know, Like like she is, she's an expert.

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<v Speaker 6>She's a physicist or an astronomer.

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<v Speaker 3>So what's so, what's the title of this.

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<v Speaker 6>She's a credible scientist, she said, They're a.

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<v Speaker 2>Credible They are credible scientists that say stupid things. There

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<v Speaker 2>are credible scientists that say stupid things and reach outside

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<v Speaker 2>of and field of expertise. So we can't appeal to

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<v Speaker 2>somebody's authority. Like I'm a physician, I'm not a surgeon.

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<v Speaker 2>I like, just because I say something reasonable about preventative

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<v Speaker 2>care does not mean that the same thing I say

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<v Speaker 2>about neurosurgery is true. I could be wrong, and even

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<v Speaker 2>even anything I say about my own field, I could

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<v Speaker 2>still be wrong about it. It does matter where I

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<v Speaker 2>get my information and what information I'm communicating. So, but

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<v Speaker 2>what is the what is the title of this study?

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<v Speaker 6>So it is titled aligned multiple transient Events in the

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<v Speaker 6>first almar Sky Survey. Okay, and it's probably a link

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<v Speaker 6>if you google this on where you can find find

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<v Speaker 6>the preprint of the paper.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm finding.

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<v Speaker 6>The scientific community doesn't block this out and I hope

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<v Speaker 6>it does get period, you know, a hostile to scientific

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<v Speaker 6>community when when they're all saved by Steve government.

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<v Speaker 2>Steve, based on based on our conversations previously, I have

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<v Speaker 2>very good reason to doubt your intuition about whether something

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<v Speaker 2>is valid science or not, because, if I remember correctly,

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<v Speaker 2>last time, you were claiming that a paper said something

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<v Speaker 2>that was not set at all by the papers. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a little bit skeptical going into this. But we

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<v Speaker 2>can evaluate this kind of together. Is there a place

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<v Speaker 2>that you've been able to find, like the entire out

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<v Speaker 2>here there is a Oh no, I can't access it.

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<v Speaker 2>It is behind to pay Well, I can see the abstract, it's.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it's new. Yeah, the abstract that's exactly what I

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<v Speaker 6>saw too. You're probably seeing the same thing. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 6>can see that.

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<v Speaker 3>But other thing, Steve, Steve, you can't.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't just go buy an abstract and abstract is

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<v Speaker 2>not a paper, it's not You can't tell anything about

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<v Speaker 2>their design just by the abstracts, like it gives you

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<v Speaker 2>such minimal information.

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<v Speaker 6>Right, But there's some more information online on YouTube, your

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<v Speaker 6>YouTubers and YouTube.

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<v Speaker 2>YouTube is not a credible source, Steve, Steve can I, Steve,

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<v Speaker 2>can I go to YouTube and find incorrect information?

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<v Speaker 6>Well, yeah, but but it doesn't mean it's wrong to

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<v Speaker 6>you know, just because it's on YouTube.

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<v Speaker 3>It also doesn't mean that it's right. It doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 3>that it's right, Steve.

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<v Speaker 2>So we can't say that because something is on YouTube

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<v Speaker 2>that it's correct. So how do we evaluate information to

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<v Speaker 2>see if it's correct? Like I think you're giving us

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<v Speaker 2>these papers, But I think the big underlying issue here

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<v Speaker 2>with the calls that we have with you is that

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not convinced that you know how to vet your sources.

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<v Speaker 2>So I want to explore a bit how do we

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<v Speaker 2>determine what is true information? And I want to let

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<v Speaker 2>Jamie jump in in here too, but maybe let's let's

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<v Speaker 2>approach that before we kind of get into the UFO stuff.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, they have the photographs. You can see those photographs online.

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<v Speaker 6>They have all these plates, these transient images on them

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<v Speaker 6>that's online.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, by that we have a collection of photographs that

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<v Speaker 1>and again we have to start assuming things that they've

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<v Speaker 1>been vetted and verified to be authentic and not timmeled

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<v Speaker 1>with and things like that. And He's one of the

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<v Speaker 1>issues that I have with the conversations that we have, Steve,

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<v Speaker 1>is that you come to us with a paper, a

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<v Speaker 1>paper that we didn't know existed until you tell us

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<v Speaker 1>the title of We know nothing of content of it,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have to take your word for what's in

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<v Speaker 1>it and the interpretation thereof we are a calling show.

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<v Speaker 1>We can't just stop it for fifteen minutes to skim

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<v Speaker 1>the paper that you are presenting us at so, as

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<v Speaker 1>Ben alluded to, we have no way of verifying how

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<v Speaker 1>well you're interpreting the paper, If the paper itself is

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<v Speaker 1>even credible that kind of thing, it's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>very difficult for us to make comment on it because

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<v Speaker 1>we don't know its content, or its context, or its veracity.

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<v Speaker 1>And so what I'm wondering, and not to derail the

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<v Speaker 1>conversation slightly, is that what do you hope to get

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<v Speaker 1>out of these courts? Why are you calling us with

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<v Speaker 1>a paper we haven't read and didn't know existed. What

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<v Speaker 1>are you hoping that we say or do?

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<v Speaker 5>Well?

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<v Speaker 6>I am caring to present the evidence of extra terrestrial

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<v Speaker 6>intelligence and volved with humanity.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's not what you're doing. You're calling to your

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<v Speaker 1>interpretation of some possible evidence that we have no reference

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<v Speaker 1>for right now, so we're literally taking your word for

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<v Speaker 1>it and the actual citation is trust me wrong.

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<v Speaker 6>Well for now, but it won't be long before this

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<v Speaker 6>gets pure reviewed. So maybe I'm jumping the gun and

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<v Speaker 6>I don't want it. Maybe I should be jumping the gun,

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<v Speaker 6>and maybe we have to wait and for further you know,

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<v Speaker 6>they probably need to get more photographic evidence from other telloscope.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, but you're also jumping the gun because I did

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<v Speaker 2>find the full paper. I did find the full paper,

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<v Speaker 2>and here's here's again a disconnect for what you are

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<v Speaker 2>expecting the study to prove and even what the study

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<v Speaker 2>is expecting to prove that it's disconnected from what the

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<v Speaker 2>evidence actually is.

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<v Speaker 3>So we have these.

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<v Speaker 2>Pictures that show transient events that we don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>they are. This is it's just people who can't see

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<v Speaker 2>this image like it's a picture with a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>like random dots on it, and it does look like

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<v Speaker 2>they're I'm not a physicist, but essentially it's the photographic

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<v Speaker 2>evidence is this picture of a bunch of dots on

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<v Speaker 2>a on a white page. So the issue I have

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<v Speaker 2>and they're asserting that there's they're asserting, they're asserting that

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<v Speaker 2>that these are UFO and that they they even mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>in their discussion like that they are artificial objects. I

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<v Speaker 2>maybe need some more, maybe someone to explain to me

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<v Speaker 2>what all the physics is that they're doing here, what

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<v Speaker 2>exactly they're measuring and not like I need to analyze,

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<v Speaker 2>like I need to read through this paper because it's

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<v Speaker 2>fairly dense. But what I'm gathering is there's there there's

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<v Speaker 2>pictures of a bunch of dots that we were able

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<v Speaker 2>to obtain.

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<v Speaker 3>We don't know what these are.

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<v Speaker 2>They were there before like Earth had released satellites, So

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<v Speaker 2>it's not that, but could it be something else?

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<v Speaker 3>Like it's it's just up.

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<v Speaker 2>In the air of what this thing is and you're

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<v Speaker 2>jumping from we don't know what this is to extra terrestrials,

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<v Speaker 2>like we know.

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<v Speaker 6>They're satellites before satellites were launched from Earth. What else

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<v Speaker 6>could it be?

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<v Speaker 2>How do we know that their satellites? What part of

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<v Speaker 2>the paper says that their satellites.

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<v Speaker 6>They reflect, they're reflective of sunlight. They resemble exactly they appeared.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything that reflects sunlight is everything that reflects sunlight. A satellite,

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<v Speaker 2>the water is satellite is a mirror.

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<v Speaker 6>Satellite geosynchronous orbit. Yes, synchrono in geosynchronous orbit around Earth.

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<v Speaker 6>Reflective of reflecting sunlight.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you know that celestial bodies are often made

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<v Speaker 1>of things? They're reflective, Comets are made of ice.

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<v Speaker 6>These these are these are these images are not streaking,

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<v Speaker 6>They're not comets or not. If they were on a

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<v Speaker 6>photographic plate and they were they were moving like an

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<v Speaker 6>astrog you would see a streak on the on the plate.

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<v Speaker 6>These heard pinpoint light images. He heard exactly how satellites.

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<v Speaker 1>My point is that reflective materials that may seem to

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<v Speaker 1>look like the reflective surfaces. I'm assuming you're you're assuming

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<v Speaker 1>things like solar panels or metallic structures, ice crystals can

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<v Speaker 1>look like that. There's metallic elements out there in the universe.

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<v Speaker 1>It is not impossible for a completely naturally occurring chunk

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<v Speaker 1>of something to have settled into an orbit around Earth

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<v Speaker 1>that is just shining.

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<v Speaker 6>In stationary orbit, not not moving in a different speed

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<v Speaker 6>than then the Earth is rotating. That doesn't happen naturally.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you that's a declarative statement. You would have

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<v Speaker 1>to back up with some kind of evidence that it's

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<v Speaker 1>not possible for something to settle into a geostationary orbit.

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<v Speaker 6>These images are the objects, these transit transient objects appear

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<v Speaker 6>exactly how satellites would appear today on these Uh. But

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<v Speaker 6>this happened before. This happened before spucknet. These images were

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<v Speaker 6>taken before for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's here's the same problem we keep running into. Is

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<v Speaker 2>that we have an unknown variable. And what you could do,

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<v Speaker 2>what you could do in this moment is say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>this paper is showing some unknown thing that has these

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<v Speaker 2>particular properties that seems unnatural to me. And instead of

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<v Speaker 2>staying there and saying I don't know what this is,

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<v Speaker 2>you're jumping a huge leap to say these are extraterrestrial

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<v Speaker 2>things like these are are like unnatural extraterrestrial made satellites,

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't think we can get there. Like why

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<v Speaker 2>are you so against like waiting for things to be demonstrated,

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<v Speaker 2>Like why are you so hesitant to say I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what this is, but we can keep investigating. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not thinking you want your answers. It seems like

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<v Speaker 2>you want all of your answers right now, and we can't.

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<v Speaker 2>We can't always have that, and there are answers were

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<v Speaker 2>not going to have.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, I think it's not. It's just a matter of time.

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<v Speaker 6>I think it's going to be very soon this work

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<v Speaker 6>will be verified.

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<v Speaker 2>So but so the answer hasn't come yet though, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And so instead of saying this is what the answer

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be, why not stay in the moment

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<v Speaker 2>and say, you know, this could be an answer.

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<v Speaker 3>But it might not be.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, find that. I'm not saying it's aliens, but you know,

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<v Speaker 6>it does look like it.

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<v Speaker 1>Steve, this might be a slightly odd question, maybe slightly

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<v Speaker 1>out of left field. Do you want aliens to be real?

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<v Speaker 6>Do I want? Yeah, I'm rooting for them.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. So this is something that I encounter quite often

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<v Speaker 1>in my day job. I work for a cancer charity.

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<v Speaker 1>Many people call in having seen something in the paper

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<v Speaker 1>or having seen some new miracle treatment that's been studied

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<v Speaker 1>in a study and it's got it and it's been

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<v Speaker 1>published in some paper or whatever, and they want it

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<v Speaker 1>to be true so badly because it's life and death.

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<v Speaker 1>So they are presupposing the outcome and just hoping that

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<v Speaker 1>the evidence will fit. And I'm feeling a similar vibe

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<v Speaker 1>from you that you're presupposing what it is and trying

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<v Speaker 1>to find evidence to fit it. Because that's how you

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<v Speaker 1>want the world to be. No scientist wants an outcome,

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<v Speaker 1>No true scientist wants something to be true. They are

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<v Speaker 1>compelled to follow the evidence and whatever it points them to,

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<v Speaker 1>and to stop when the evidence runs out. No one

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<v Speaker 1>wanted gravity to be real. No one wanted evolution to

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<v Speaker 1>be real. No one wanted atoms to be the component

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00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.839
<v Speaker 1>part of the universe. They just are. So I would

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<v Speaker 1>strongly advise you to remove that really quite glaring bias

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<v Speaker 1>from your reasoning when it comes to your interpretation of

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<v Speaker 1>these papers. Because even if and let me give you

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<v Speaker 1>all the toy, let's say that we don't have a

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00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:36.079
<v Speaker 1>reasonable explanation for these phenomena, and that it is an

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00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.279
<v Speaker 1>interesting phenomena that should be studied further. If the paper

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<v Speaker 1>itself has not yet mentioned anything to do with extraterrestrials,

401
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:46.039
<v Speaker 1>and you're plugging that in, you're already jumping the gun,

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00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:51.799
<v Speaker 1>and you're exemplifying this thing that I am frustrated with

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00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:55.559
<v Speaker 1>with people calling in, I have a presupposed reason for

404
00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.960
<v Speaker 1>this happening, and I'm going to shove it in to

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00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.319
<v Speaker 1>that gap until at such time as it's either completely

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<v Speaker 1>indefensible or proven true. And I think that is not

407
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:10.119
<v Speaker 1>a particularly great way to go about thinking. So so

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00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:11.279
<v Speaker 1>what do you say to that.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, I realize I have some maybe I have a

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<v Speaker 6>little bit of confirmation biased there, I'll have that. I

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<v Speaker 6>don't think that means I'm wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong. But you have to again,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm asking you for a little bit of empathy here.

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<v Speaker 1>Look at it from our position. We are skeptics, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're pretty hardcore skeptics as well. Both Ben and myself

416
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:35.799
<v Speaker 1>are trained in some sciences, medical science, on computer scientists,

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00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:39.599
<v Speaker 1>that's not really science, but anyway, but we pride ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>on skepticism. We pride ourselves on going where the evidence

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00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.920
<v Speaker 1>takes us and making as few assumptions as possible. And

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<v Speaker 1>the thing is, when you come to us with an

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<v Speaker 1>obvious assumption as part of your argument, you must understand

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<v Speaker 1>that it's going to harm your credibility with us and

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<v Speaker 1>many of the people who are intellectually aligned with us. So,

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to make your argument compelling to someone

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00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.839
<v Speaker 1>you on their level, think what is going to convince

426
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.119
<v Speaker 1>not what convinces me, what convinces you, What's going to

427
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.279
<v Speaker 1>convince them? Because every time you've called, and I've spoken

428
00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.119
<v Speaker 1>to you a couple of two or three times now, Steve,

429
00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:14.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't find any of your arguments compelling because you're

430
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.000
<v Speaker 1>falling into these intellectual traps, these fallacies, and it's killing

431
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:21.480
<v Speaker 1>your credibility. So if you want to be a credible

432
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:25.599
<v Speaker 1>person who's credibly arguing, then stick to the facts. Keep

433
00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>your biases out if you can. It takes introspection. It's

434
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.400
<v Speaker 1>not easy. I understand that I've made lots of claims

435
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:34.960
<v Speaker 1>as a younger, dumber man that turned out to be

436
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.400
<v Speaker 1>false because I was so certain of what the truth was.

437
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:40.119
<v Speaker 1>So do you think you can do that? Maybe you're

438
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.359
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more introspective there, Steve, Well.

439
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.200
<v Speaker 6>I think yeah. I mean I just think this is

440
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.920
<v Speaker 6>interesting and it's I mean, it's something that work that

441
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:50.079
<v Speaker 6>you know certainly that warrants further study.

442
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:50.519
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

443
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:53.279
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, couldn't agree with you more, but that's it. It

444
00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:56.480
<v Speaker 1>warrants further study, and it warrants to be taken at

445
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.759
<v Speaker 1>its own value, inserting no extras.

446
00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:00.160
<v Speaker 4>Yea.

447
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.279
<v Speaker 6>In this state, I mean, people just tend to just

448
00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:08.559
<v Speaker 6>miss this, you know, the aliens, without without being you know,

449
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.319
<v Speaker 6>without serious study. This warrants because there is there is,

450
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.759
<v Speaker 6>there is evidence, it's out there. The truth is out there.

451
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they're missing it. I don't think they're

452
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:20.160
<v Speaker 2>missing it, Steve. What the difference is, we're withholding our

453
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:23.519
<v Speaker 2>belief until the evidence comes out. That's what we're doing.

454
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:27.480
<v Speaker 2>So we're not saying that we won't ever believe in aliens.

455
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.000
<v Speaker 2>It's just I don't have any reason yet to accept it.

456
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.039
<v Speaker 2>But what we've noticed you're doing is you're accepting it

457
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:37.720
<v Speaker 2>before the evidence comes out. And that's where our disconnect is.

458
00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:41.079
<v Speaker 6>Okay, we'll always serve my judgment until she gets peer

459
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.279
<v Speaker 6>reviewed and that maybe there's some other explanation, but it

460
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:46.960
<v Speaker 6>just it seems to me it's pretty compelling evidence.

461
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm assuming you have studied a lot of

462
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:53.400
<v Speaker 1>issue you're very interested in, you are, I'm asuming you're

463
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.759
<v Speaker 1>aware of the Drake equation and the Fermi paradox.

464
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.920
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, the great equation on

465
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:02.319
<v Speaker 6>what the probability years were technologically.

466
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Alien life out there somewhere, and then the Fermi paradox

467
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:07.160
<v Speaker 1>of why haven't we seen them yet?

468
00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:08.799
<v Speaker 2>Right?

469
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.200
<v Speaker 6>Because I think they're there in plain say, and we

470
00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:13.160
<v Speaker 6>just don't want to see it.

471
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:19.119
<v Speaker 1>I think you are very much denigrating the entire scientific

472
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:23.039
<v Speaker 1>field because many discoveries that people would prefer to have

473
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:27.079
<v Speaker 1>not have discovered, truths about this universe that are not great,

474
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:33.519
<v Speaker 1>have come from scientific inquiry, and the concept that scientists

475
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:37.519
<v Speaker 1>would on the whole suppress something that's true. I mean, yes,

476
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:40.279
<v Speaker 1>we have examples of government sometimes getting involved, but it

477
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:44.200
<v Speaker 1>doesn't last forever. And we've been doing SETI for nearly

478
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.440
<v Speaker 1>one hundred years now. We've been looking to the stars,

479
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.400
<v Speaker 1>to the sky to see if there's anything else out

480
00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:53.000
<v Speaker 1>there for as long as we have been able to,

481
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:56.119
<v Speaker 1>and we've been doing it really in earnest since the

482
00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.200
<v Speaker 1>seventies and still and that data is publicly available, and

483
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.480
<v Speaker 1>there's little anomalies, and there's the wow noise and all

484
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:05.640
<v Speaker 1>this kind of stuff and things that you've told talked

485
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.319
<v Speaker 1>to us about before. But all you've ever given us

486
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.400
<v Speaker 1>is like individual papers and fringe things that are from

487
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.759
<v Speaker 1>people who aren't particularly well credentialed. It isn't particularly compelling,

488
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.359
<v Speaker 1>and the and the thought and when we challenge you, like, well,

489
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.359
<v Speaker 1>why hasn't the consensus of all of the other astronomer

490
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.599
<v Speaker 1>astronomers and all of the other physicists and all of

491
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the other researchers in this field come to this conclusion,

492
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.200
<v Speaker 1>you start going, oh, well, they'll just cover it up

493
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.240
<v Speaker 1>they don't want to see And I'm like, oh no,

494
00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:38.559
<v Speaker 1>not conspiracy theory again, because again, a conspiracy of that

495
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.400
<v Speaker 1>magnitude to obscure what you're saying is obvious evidence of

496
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:47.759
<v Speaker 1>extraterrestrial life that we are seeing with plainly, it will

497
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:51.920
<v Speaker 1>take orders of magnitude more organization and resources to keep

498
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.279
<v Speaker 1>that stub than basically anything else. And if you're thinking, well,

499
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:58.440
<v Speaker 1>there's been plenty of conspiracies that have come out though

500
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.240
<v Speaker 1>were really big, it's like, yes, they've come out, we

501
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:04.799
<v Speaker 1>know about them because you can't keep these things secret forever.

502
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:08.400
<v Speaker 1>So again you kind of torpedo an incredibility.

503
00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:11.680
<v Speaker 6>I think we need congressional investigation on this. I know

504
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:17.400
<v Speaker 6>we've had some progressional investigations about laps and extraterrestrial intelligence,

505
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:19.920
<v Speaker 6>but we need to look into this some more. These

506
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:24.039
<v Speaker 6>images too. Interestingly enough, little side know these plate images

507
00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 6>were taken back in the early fifties. Well they were

508
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.359
<v Speaker 6>the Harvard or the guy that ran this that was

509
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.319
<v Speaker 6>in charge of these plates had them destroyed later on.

510
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.720
<v Speaker 6>So the plates like from nineteen fifty seven into the

511
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:42.000
<v Speaker 6>nineteen sixties were destroyed. Why that happened, boom, I wonder.

512
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Why because the storage resources that required often outweigh their

513
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.559
<v Speaker 1>apparent use at the time. There were just plates that

514
00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:53.599
<v Speaker 1>were studied and discarded. I mean, the BBC deleted entire

515
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.359
<v Speaker 1>series of Classic Doctor Who because they couldn't be bothered

516
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.920
<v Speaker 1>to store them. And that's a pretty trivial thing. No

517
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.599
<v Speaker 1>just basic snap their fingers. An entire series of a

518
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:05.400
<v Speaker 1>beloved t what was to become a beloved TV show

519
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.079
<v Speaker 1>went into the ether just because they didn't want to

520
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:11.720
<v Speaker 1>store the tapes. And also storage media of the time

521
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:18.279
<v Speaker 1>was notoriously fragile. You know, everyone thinks that data is

522
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.319
<v Speaker 1>an immutable thing now because we live in the data age,

523
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:24.480
<v Speaker 1>But even now we have things like bit rotten and

524
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:28.920
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that. Like how credible were those plates? How

525
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:31.480
<v Speaker 1>well preserved were they're what equipment did they use to

526
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:34.039
<v Speaker 1>take the photos? I mean, camera technology has come a

527
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:36.680
<v Speaker 1>long way since then. I mean, maybe we should redo

528
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:43.160
<v Speaker 1>the sky search with modern technology. That's possible, you know,

529
00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:46.519
<v Speaker 1>if we get the funding. I'm all for science funding, yes, please, please,

530
00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:50.160
<v Speaker 1>please please, And I agree that these things should be investigated,

531
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:53.640
<v Speaker 1>but assumptions should be left out of the equation. And

532
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.279
<v Speaker 1>that's again where you seem to come in, like it's aliens.

533
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:58.480
<v Speaker 1>It's got to be aliens and what it might be,

534
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.400
<v Speaker 1>but it might well not be.

535
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:08.000
<v Speaker 6>Okay, well, my people will just have to wait and see.

536
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.319
<v Speaker 6>I mean, it's still what some more needs to be done.

537
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Any less tools they've been now.

538
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 2>I think I think we're on the same page as

539
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.240
<v Speaker 2>far as like we need to see more information, and

540
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:23.599
<v Speaker 2>I think, like, I do really appreciate you bringing the papers.

541
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:28.799
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you bringing what you believe is evidence, and

542
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:32.039
<v Speaker 2>I want more callers to do that as well. The

543
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.880
<v Speaker 2>thing is, though, I kind of want to take these

544
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.759
<v Speaker 2>papers and instead of just synthesizing the information into what

545
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:42.119
<v Speaker 2>we believe, they say, like, maybe we can break them

546
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:45.680
<v Speaker 2>down into what like what does the paper like, what

547
00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:48.759
<v Speaker 2>is the hypothesis of this paper, what are the methods,

548
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.079
<v Speaker 2>what is the data they actually collected? How how did

549
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:55.039
<v Speaker 2>they collect this data, how did they analyze the data?

550
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.799
<v Speaker 2>What are the stats that they use to determine the

551
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:01.799
<v Speaker 2>significance of this data? And then what are they actually

552
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.319
<v Speaker 2>saying the significance of this paper is? And that'll help

553
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:09.480
<v Speaker 2>help us kind of avoid inserting claims into the paper

554
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:13.359
<v Speaker 2>that maybe weren't there and just evaluating it for what

555
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:16.400
<v Speaker 2>it is. So I encourage you, like keep calling in,

556
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:19.039
<v Speaker 2>keep bringing this stuff. I just think we're getting a

557
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:23.799
<v Speaker 2>little bit disorganized in how we're like relating things together.

558
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:27.119
<v Speaker 1>Forgive us our incredulity, we do have quite life standards

559
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:29.640
<v Speaker 1>of evidence because we're just decades long.

560
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:34.799
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, thanks, thanks for how far doctor beach. Uh this

561
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:39.519
<v Speaker 6>astronomer gets with trying to get plates from other telescopes

562
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:41.319
<v Speaker 6>of that air other other plates and what kind of

563
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:43.519
<v Speaker 6>roadblocks that show run into on that, so that that

564
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:44.359
<v Speaker 6>will tell us a lot.

565
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, well we'll see and if more information comes out,

566
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:51.599
<v Speaker 2>definitely call back in and we'll we'll revisit. But I

567
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:53.759
<v Speaker 2>hope you have a great rest here Sunday, Steve.

568
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:54.519
<v Speaker 1>Thanks, ma'am.

569
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:55.720
<v Speaker 6>Yeah you usual world. Thanks.

570
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean right. I think one of the reasons

571
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:00.880
<v Speaker 1>I find Steve so frustrating is the he's obviously kind

572
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:02.880
<v Speaker 1>of like he's got like he's got the spirit he

573
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:05.720
<v Speaker 1>wants he wants to know a truth, what's true, but

574
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:09.480
<v Speaker 1>that it is that presupposition of wanting a particular truth

575
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:11.119
<v Speaker 1>to be true and anyway.

576
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:16.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, but some exciting things to talk about,

577
00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:21.279
<v Speaker 2>which I'm I'm super pumped for this upcoming week because

578
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:25.440
<v Speaker 2>it is the Back Cruise twenty twenty five. Is this

579
00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:30.440
<v Speaker 2>upcoming weekend August sixteenth at seven pm. Sounds like there

580
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.000
<v Speaker 2>are still tickets available, so get them as soon as

581
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.960
<v Speaker 2>you can, because I think they're going to sell out

582
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:40.839
<v Speaker 2>if they aren't already. People like Caitlin, Jonathan R and

583
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:44.200
<v Speaker 2>Kelly K already got their tickets and so I'm looking

584
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.960
<v Speaker 2>forward to meeting them on the Back Cruise. But you

585
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:51.519
<v Speaker 2>should totally, I'm totally not peer pressuring you into coming,

586
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 2>but it's a it's a fun time and I think

587
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.559
<v Speaker 2>you'll have a great time if you get your tickets

588
00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:59.880
<v Speaker 2>and come join us. But if you're also, if you're

589
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:03.480
<v Speaker 2>if you want somebody else to enjoy the Back Crewise,

590
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.799
<v Speaker 2>but you know that you can't make it yourself, you

591
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:09.920
<v Speaker 2>can also give a donation in the live chat to

592
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:12.960
<v Speaker 2>help purchase a ticket for one of the hosts or

593
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.839
<v Speaker 2>one of the crew members so that they're able to

594
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.720
<v Speaker 2>go for those who maybe wouldn't have been able to

595
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.119
<v Speaker 2>go otherwise. So go to tiny dot cc slash back

596
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.960
<v Speaker 2>crewise to get your tickets and we'll see you this

597
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker 2>next Saturday. I'm so pumped, and don't forget as well

598
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.319
<v Speaker 2>for a back cruise weekend. It's not just the back cruise, right,

599
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:35.440
<v Speaker 2>there's also the Sunday. Let's say you can't you're in Austin,

600
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.759
<v Speaker 2>the Austin area and you can't afford to go to

601
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:41.680
<v Speaker 2>the back cruise. That's okay because on Sunday we're doing

602
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:47.200
<v Speaker 2>live shows from the library, So show up, come say hi.

603
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:51.559
<v Speaker 2>We'll be doing Talk to Ethan and XP with multiple

604
00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:54.200
<v Speaker 2>different hosts playing musical chairs, and it's going to be

605
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.000
<v Speaker 2>a great time. So I want to want to see

606
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:58.960
<v Speaker 2>all of you there if you're able to get in.

607
00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:02.160
<v Speaker 1>Yep, ye all the there's a lot of the hosts

608
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.400
<v Speaker 1>coming into town. It's going to be great. It's always

609
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:06.400
<v Speaker 1>a good fun party. It actually all starts off on

610
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.240
<v Speaker 1>the Saturday and the game all the way through to

611
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:12.680
<v Speaker 1>the Sunday's a weekend long party. And even if hosts

612
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:14.839
<v Speaker 1>aren't going to be on those Sunday shows, they'll be

613
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:18.279
<v Speaker 1>in the building, like we'll all be here. So it's

614
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:21.279
<v Speaker 1>a unique opportunity. We often get a rush on tickets

615
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.200
<v Speaker 1>in the final week, So yeah, do get yours in quick.

616
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:25.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm bringing you a couple of friends with me who

617
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:30.880
<v Speaker 1>are awesome, and yeah, I can't wait to Pesta forest

618
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Alqai in person and make him squirm and you know,

619
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:35.319
<v Speaker 1>play with j Mike's beard and that kind of thing,

620
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:37.000
<v Speaker 1>usual shenanigans.

621
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:39.319
<v Speaker 3>It's going to be super super fun.

622
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:43.799
<v Speaker 2>Also, just as usual, you can send in your super

623
00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:47.079
<v Speaker 2>chats during the show and we will read them at

624
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:49.920
<v Speaker 2>the end. As many as we can read during the show,

625
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.559
<v Speaker 2>we will read them. You can also become a channel

626
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.799
<v Speaker 2>member click the joint button below the video and you'll

627
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.000
<v Speaker 2>get custom chat emotes, early access to clips and shorts,

628
00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:00.839
<v Speaker 2>and you will help perpetuate the mission TALKI Than and

629
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.480
<v Speaker 2>the atheist community of Austin. And if you're looking for

630
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:09.159
<v Speaker 2>a non monetary way to support the channel and the ACA,

631
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:12.199
<v Speaker 2>you can like the video. That goes a long way.

632
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:16.360
<v Speaker 2>People don't understand how much that like button does for

633
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:19.719
<v Speaker 2>increasing views and getting the message out there to others.

634
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.920
<v Speaker 2>So click that like button, subscribe to the channel, enable

635
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:26.920
<v Speaker 2>notifications and comment in the live chat and below after

636
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.440
<v Speaker 2>the video, and all of that goes a long way.

637
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.599
<v Speaker 2>And we appreciate all of your comments and your likes

638
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:33.400
<v Speaker 2>on these videos.

639
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:35.199
<v Speaker 1>I love the fact that the EMO that they made

640
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.559
<v Speaker 1>for me as a host. Emos mean that, don'tlin As.

641
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:41.800
<v Speaker 3>It's hilarious. I love it.

642
00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:43.079
<v Speaker 1>It's great.

643
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:48.400
<v Speaker 2>So we have a Yeah, we have another caller, and

644
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.519
<v Speaker 2>this one actually is a great one, I think for

645
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:55.159
<v Speaker 2>both of us. This is atheist Lisa. She Her from

646
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Canada wants to talk about what atheists slash the science

647
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:04.880
<v Speaker 2>the community can do about religious beliefs interfering with medical care. Lisa,

648
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.519
<v Speaker 2>you are alive on Talk Heathen. What is your discussion

649
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:10.159
<v Speaker 2>topic today?

650
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:11.280
<v Speaker 5>Hi?

651
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 7>So I'm a little nervous problem, so I can of

652
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.599
<v Speaker 7>just give like an example of what I mean by that.

653
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:21.519
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, Okay.

654
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:28.800
<v Speaker 7>I volunteer with a mental health organization in my city

655
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.400
<v Speaker 7>and we deal with people, you know, from all different

656
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:36.480
<v Speaker 7>kinds of mental health disorders. And what I mean is,

657
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.320
<v Speaker 7>how do we, like, let how do we stop religion

658
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:43.360
<v Speaker 7>from interfering with people getting proper health care. There was

659
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:47.400
<v Speaker 7>someone there was someone who we were trying to help

660
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.880
<v Speaker 7>in the past and they were living in a group home.

661
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:55.440
<v Speaker 7>They needed some help taking care of themselves. They had schizophrenia,

662
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:59.320
<v Speaker 7>and all was going well until the people who are

663
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.880
<v Speaker 7>running that facility, thought that they should do an exorcism

664
00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:05.679
<v Speaker 7>on him, and you know, things like that not only

665
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.280
<v Speaker 7>do not only are they bullshit, but it causes I

666
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:12.639
<v Speaker 7>think a lot of emotional damage to people. You know,

667
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:15.599
<v Speaker 7>some people don't want, don't won't take their kids to

668
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.159
<v Speaker 7>the doctor, you know, thoughts and prayers kind of thing,

669
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.960
<v Speaker 7>you know. Or maybe we're just being tested and our

670
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:24.760
<v Speaker 7>faith needs to get better and they'll get better. But

671
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:29.920
<v Speaker 7>I think sometimes that religion interferes in more areas than

672
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.280
<v Speaker 7>we think it does, and it's the religious people who

673
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:37.039
<v Speaker 7>suffer as a result of that. I'm not saying that

674
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.920
<v Speaker 7>all religious people are not I'm not saying that all

675
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:46.840
<v Speaker 7>religious people have medical neglect. Obviously that's not true. But

676
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:50.960
<v Speaker 7>I do think that religion can interfere with our physical

677
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:54.840
<v Speaker 7>and mental wellness. And how do we as atheists try

678
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.679
<v Speaker 7>to try to put a stop to that from interfering

679
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:01.960
<v Speaker 7>into some one getting medical services.

680
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.920
<v Speaker 1>It is a conundrum, and I don't just take it

681
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:10.519
<v Speaker 1>from an atheist standpoint. It can become a broader topic

682
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:14.320
<v Speaker 1>of people who do not properly engage with medical services

683
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:18.599
<v Speaker 1>due to misinformation. Of course, religion and religious doctrine is

684
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:21.039
<v Speaker 1>very powerful but you've also got things like the anti

685
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:25.000
<v Speaker 1>vaxx movement stuff like that. There's two things. One if

686
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:31.039
<v Speaker 1>it's the caretakers of people who are not engaging with

687
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.480
<v Speaker 1>the medical field, that are on behalf of the person

688
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:38.199
<v Speaker 1>they're caring for, especially parents. We do have laws and

689
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:42.960
<v Speaker 1>things around that, but one of the most sacrisanct things,

690
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:47.480
<v Speaker 1>in my opinion, is bodily autonomy. And unfortunate as it is,

691
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:54.119
<v Speaker 1>we cannot force someone to undertake a medical or mental

692
00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:00.280
<v Speaker 1>health intervention without their permission unless we can declare them

693
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:04.039
<v Speaker 1>unable to make those decisions themselves. And that's very important

694
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:09.119
<v Speaker 1>to me that patient autonomy and dignity is preserved. And

695
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:13.440
<v Speaker 1>yet we have religious denominations that in their very doctrine

696
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:17.440
<v Speaker 1>prohibit things like blood transfusions for Jehovah's witnesses, that kind

697
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:23.440
<v Speaker 1>of thing, And there isn't really a very easy way

698
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:26.239
<v Speaker 1>to do it on a broad scale. We can't ban

699
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:29.599
<v Speaker 1>these religions. I wouldn't want to ban them. I wouldn't

700
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:32.920
<v Speaker 1>want to make it illegal to refuse doctor's orders or

701
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:36.559
<v Speaker 1>to have people compelled to undertake a medical procedure that

702
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.800
<v Speaker 1>they don't want to do for whatever reason. Now I

703
00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:45.079
<v Speaker 1>am only secondhand in this I work parallel to the

704
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:50.039
<v Speaker 1>healthcare system in my role in a cancer charity, but

705
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.639
<v Speaker 1>these issues pop up now. I've also seen the flip side,

706
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:56.840
<v Speaker 1>where people are in bold and to keep going and

707
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:01.039
<v Speaker 1>to engage with the medical things when things like really

708
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:04.719
<v Speaker 1>horrific side effects keep people feeling sick and chemotherapy is

709
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:08.280
<v Speaker 1>briillt off on some people. But their faith is one

710
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.280
<v Speaker 1>of the things that keeps them strong enough to keep going.

711
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:13.199
<v Speaker 1>So I'm not saying that religion as a whole is

712
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:18.599
<v Speaker 1>entirely detrimental to people's ability to seek the best medical outcomes.

713
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:21.159
<v Speaker 1>But I haven't done a medical ethics class. I think

714
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:23.920
<v Speaker 1>you talked about might have a bit more insight on that.

715
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:27.599
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, like I said, maybe I was referring more to, like,

716
00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.519
<v Speaker 7>you know, stopping kind of these I don't want to.

717
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.000
<v Speaker 7>I'm trying to figure out how to say it without

718
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:38.639
<v Speaker 7>stopping kind of like religious Like if someone's a caretaker,

719
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:41.519
<v Speaker 7>like you said, and they're religious, like there has to

720
00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:44.880
<v Speaker 7>be I just think that it.

721
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.000
<v Speaker 2>May I ask a quick question for the example you

722
00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:53.840
<v Speaker 2>gave about the exorcism, was that a group home that

723
00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:58.800
<v Speaker 2>was explicitly like labeled as a religious institution or was

724
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:03.800
<v Speaker 2>this like like a group home that services the public

725
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:09.880
<v Speaker 2>and serves as you know, not a specifically religious entity.

726
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:12.440
<v Speaker 7>I'm not sure if it was religion based.

727
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:16.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it was, because if it wasn't, if

728
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:20.719
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't a religious institution, like if the patient wasn't

729
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:25.519
<v Speaker 2>consenting to be placed in a religious group home, that's.

730
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:28.880
<v Speaker 3>A big legal problem.

731
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Because even if you are a minor, or if you're

732
00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:37.519
<v Speaker 2>an adult, or if you have whatever condition, it doesn't matter,

733
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:41.119
<v Speaker 2>Like you should have the ability to consent to what

734
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:45.679
<v Speaker 2>religious procedures are done for you in the same way

735
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:50.679
<v Speaker 2>as medical procedures, like if this is a group home

736
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:54.239
<v Speaker 2>meant to help take care of you and keep you safe,

737
00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:57.079
<v Speaker 2>make sure you're getting your medical treatments, et cetera, and

738
00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 2>you are not explicitly and apparently a religious place. They

739
00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:05.519
<v Speaker 2>should not be forcing an exorcism on anybody. They should

740
00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:07.960
<v Speaker 2>not be doing that at a at a public institution.

741
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:10.039
<v Speaker 2>So that's that's one facet of this.

742
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:15.039
<v Speaker 7>Like I just think that personally, just my opinion, I

743
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:19.760
<v Speaker 7>don't think that religious organizations should have like their own

744
00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:23.840
<v Speaker 7>hospitals and be selected based on that religion's morality.

745
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:28.679
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I agree, or to disclude.

746
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:32.239
<v Speaker 7>Certain right, Like, there was a case in my province

747
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:35.320
<v Speaker 7>a few hours north of here, and there was this

748
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:37.800
<v Speaker 7>they had. One of the things that we're kind of

749
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.559
<v Speaker 7>struggling within the West in Canada is they're creating more,

750
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 7>you know, hospitals that are kind of like run by

751
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:48.400
<v Speaker 7>religious groups. And you know, and I don't care what

752
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:51.880
<v Speaker 7>anyone's opinion is on abortion. My opinion is that it's

753
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.159
<v Speaker 7>part of healthcare. I don't know the reason, it's none

754
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.440
<v Speaker 7>of my business, but you know, to to not offer

755
00:41:57.760 --> 00:41:59.840
<v Speaker 7>you know, I live in a province that there's only

756
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:03.119
<v Speaker 7>two cities. Everywhere else is a rural place, so there

757
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:06.800
<v Speaker 7>aren't a lot of options. But to deny someone like,

758
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:09.679
<v Speaker 7>you know, they could possibly be a life saving procedure.

759
00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.960
<v Speaker 7>But you know if they say, like they're miscarrying or something,

760
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:16.440
<v Speaker 7>but the nearest hospital is Catholic run and they refuse

761
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:17.559
<v Speaker 7>to do that procedure.

762
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:17.960
<v Speaker 5>Right.

763
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:22.000
<v Speaker 7>I just don't think that medical groups should really be

764
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:26.159
<v Speaker 7>involved in medical care. I think it's wrong. And I

765
00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:29.199
<v Speaker 7>also think that and this is just my opinion, right.

766
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:32.400
<v Speaker 7>You know, when people are suffering, when people are desperate,

767
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:35.559
<v Speaker 7>sometimes they do turn to religion. And that's not like

768
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:38.760
<v Speaker 7>to criticize them. You know, we've all been there where

769
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:41.920
<v Speaker 7>we want something to grab them to because we're afraid.

770
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:46.239
<v Speaker 7>And I think that along with and I'm not saying

771
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:50.079
<v Speaker 7>all religious organizations you don't do that or manipulate them

772
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 7>or whatever, but there is an influence with ulterior motives

773
00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:57.840
<v Speaker 7>in some places that I've seen. And I also think

774
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.679
<v Speaker 7>that as a result of that, there's a lot of

775
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.760
<v Speaker 7>emotional abuse that goes on. When I was when I

776
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.960
<v Speaker 7>was thirteen, I grew up in a very Catholic household,

777
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:11.639
<v Speaker 7>and when I was thirteen, I was diagnosed with epilepsy.

778
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.039
<v Speaker 7>I just started having seizures and I didn't grow out

779
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.239
<v Speaker 7>of it. Some people grow out of it, some people don't.

780
00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:19.639
<v Speaker 7>And I didn't grow out of it. And you know

781
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.880
<v Speaker 7>what my Catholic mom told me was, you know, this

782
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.719
<v Speaker 7>is a test from God. And I thought to myself,

783
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:28.920
<v Speaker 7>a chronic illness is a test from God. What could

784
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:30.960
<v Speaker 7>I have as a thirteen year old, What could I

785
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.719
<v Speaker 7>have done to have some sort of you know, need

786
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:35.679
<v Speaker 7>to be tested this way for the rest of my

787
00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:39.559
<v Speaker 7>life or you know, some people will say you're sick

788
00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:43.800
<v Speaker 7>because you're sick, because it's a punishment you did something wrong. Well,

789
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.400
<v Speaker 7>I don't. I don't know. I just think that it

790
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.559
<v Speaker 7>doesn't just cause physical harm, it doesn't just cause harm

791
00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:53.239
<v Speaker 7>in the medical system. But I also think it's emotionally abusive.

792
00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:54.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh.

793
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:58.639
<v Speaker 7>Like, and when I was twenty two, I went to

794
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.960
<v Speaker 7>I was traveling, and I don't know if you've heard

795
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:04.719
<v Speaker 7>of this before, but there's this place in France called

796
00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:08.519
<v Speaker 7>Lords and they have like apparently there was this miracle

797
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:12.159
<v Speaker 7>where the Virgin Mary came down and by the Lord's

798
00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:15.400
<v Speaker 7>fountain and healed people. And so I went there, not

799
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:18.039
<v Speaker 7>because I believe in God, is I wanted to get

800
00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:21.400
<v Speaker 7>some water from there. As a president for my Catholic mother.

801
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:24.400
<v Speaker 7>I just thought I just thought it would have meaning

802
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:28.199
<v Speaker 7>to her. And yeah, I see people, you know, they're

803
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:32.119
<v Speaker 7>from all over the world bringing human you know, humongous

804
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.159
<v Speaker 7>jugs to I almost said it out loud.

805
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:35.599
<v Speaker 5>I didn't.

806
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.760
<v Speaker 7>I'm glad I didn't, but I almost said it, Like,

807
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:42.360
<v Speaker 7>you know, it's just water, right, and like, can you

808
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:47.880
<v Speaker 7>imagine like funding someone from South America with religious donations

809
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:50.639
<v Speaker 7>to fly all the way to France just to get water,

810
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:54.039
<v Speaker 7>and then these people are going to be disappointed because well,

811
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:56.440
<v Speaker 7>obviously they are not cured.

812
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.079
<v Speaker 2>And money, and that money and the money could have

813
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:01.960
<v Speaker 2>been used to give them evidence based treatment, like it

814
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:04.000
<v Speaker 2>might not cover all of the treatment, but it could

815
00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:06.800
<v Speaker 2>at least give them a head start in getting a

816
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:11.280
<v Speaker 2>specialist evaluation or something that's more tangible and more likely

817
00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:14.360
<v Speaker 2>to succeed. And yeah, I'm I'm with you on how

818
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:19.480
<v Speaker 2>frustrating this whole thing is. I've worked with a fair

819
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:24.480
<v Speaker 2>number of religious physicians I've worked at I did rotations

820
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:29.159
<v Speaker 2>during med school at Catholic facilities, and it is very

821
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:33.199
<v Speaker 2>frustrating when you have this disconnect between, you know, religion

822
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:37.159
<v Speaker 2>and evidence based medicine. And I wholeheartedly agree that I

823
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:41.280
<v Speaker 2>don't think that churches should be able to have like

824
00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:45.239
<v Speaker 2>basically a monopoly like they do on community health. They

825
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:49.599
<v Speaker 2>have it on like rural health, and a lot of

826
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:55.599
<v Speaker 2>the more service based medical charities are run through religious institutions.

827
00:45:55.639 --> 00:45:57.800
<v Speaker 2>And I think kind of the one of the big

828
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:01.800
<v Speaker 2>ways that we can fight this is by establishing more

829
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:06.719
<v Speaker 2>secular organizations that can do the same thing without requiring

830
00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:10.440
<v Speaker 2>people to adopt a certain belief system, that won't require

831
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:13.960
<v Speaker 2>people to sit through a sermon in order to get

832
00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:17.880
<v Speaker 2>their medical care. We can have more people with initiatives

833
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:22.880
<v Speaker 2>setting up evidence based groups in secular groups to go

834
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:26.320
<v Speaker 2>out to these communities who may have only had missionary

835
00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:29.519
<v Speaker 2>groups show up. I mean, if you have a missionary

836
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:32.440
<v Speaker 2>group of doctors show up and you get treatment that

837
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:36.119
<v Speaker 2>you need, of course you're more likely to lean on

838
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:39.360
<v Speaker 2>a religious belief after that because that's the only group

839
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:42.880
<v Speaker 2>of people that gave you help. So if we start

840
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:45.719
<v Speaker 2>kind of getting on board and establishing services like that,

841
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.000
<v Speaker 2>I think that would help. As far as the autonomy issue,

842
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:53.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm one hundred percent with Jamie and the fact that

843
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:58.280
<v Speaker 2>we can't force people to not make or make decisions

844
00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:03.719
<v Speaker 2>based on their own religious perspective. There there's kind of

845
00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:06.400
<v Speaker 2>some nuance with how you play out these conversations, and

846
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:09.280
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of this is related to education

847
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.760
<v Speaker 2>and how we present the information. Of course, there's always

848
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:16.199
<v Speaker 2>going to be people, for example, Jehovah's witnesses who won't

849
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.800
<v Speaker 2>accept a blood transfusion. There's informed consent that you have

850
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:24.159
<v Speaker 2>to have with obtaining a medical procedure, but there's also

851
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.639
<v Speaker 2>a degree of informed consent with declining a procedure, and

852
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:31.199
<v Speaker 2>there's a very detailed discussion that you should be having

853
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:35.400
<v Speaker 2>with patients either way. Like I can give a recommendation,

854
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:39.599
<v Speaker 2>and if somebody is declining the recommendation, I should be

855
00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:42.800
<v Speaker 2>having a good conversation with them, making sure that they

856
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:47.159
<v Speaker 2>actually do understand the risks of not accepting this particular

857
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:51.400
<v Speaker 2>piece of care. Ultimately, they do get the decision. They

858
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.079
<v Speaker 2>get to make the decision of whether or not they

859
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:58.079
<v Speaker 2>will accept or decline. But we should still try to

860
00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:01.559
<v Speaker 2>answer the questions, make sure that they're not declining because

861
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:05.280
<v Speaker 2>of misinformation, and if there is misinformation, we can address

862
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.719
<v Speaker 2>it there and then, because sometimes it is on me.

863
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:13.039
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes that lapse in communication is because I phrase something inappropriately,

864
00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:16.159
<v Speaker 2>or if I thought that the person knew something that

865
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:19.440
<v Speaker 2>they didn't know. A lot of that does fall on

866
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:22.760
<v Speaker 2>the way I'm presenting info, and I will admit there

867
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:26.280
<v Speaker 2>are times when it is useful to rely on a

868
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:30.920
<v Speaker 2>bit more religious wording for things, knowing that this particular

869
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:35.480
<v Speaker 2>issue isn't going to be what deconverts them. But the

870
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:37.880
<v Speaker 2>important thing is in the here and now for that person,

871
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:41.079
<v Speaker 2>maybe saving their life so that later on they can

872
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:45.960
<v Speaker 2>evaluate their belief system. But you can kind of almost

873
00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:48.840
<v Speaker 2>take like a little bit of a straight epistemology stance

874
00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:51.760
<v Speaker 2>with this and just kind of ask ask the questions

875
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:55.599
<v Speaker 2>that maybe they didn't think of before. For example, if

876
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.840
<v Speaker 2>they think that an exorcism is going to cure them,

877
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:03.639
<v Speaker 2>but then they also might have a belief that doctors

878
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:07.519
<v Speaker 2>are put there by God and have been blessed by

879
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:10.559
<v Speaker 2>God in order to do their job. Where's that disconnect

880
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:13.920
<v Speaker 2>at that point? Why are you if you believe that

881
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:18.079
<v Speaker 2>these experts exist because of your faith and because of

882
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:21.960
<v Speaker 2>your God, why is that seen Why are these people

883
00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:26.320
<v Speaker 2>seen as like the secondary option, or why are they

884
00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:29.639
<v Speaker 2>seen as less credible? Why are you not trusting them

885
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:32.960
<v Speaker 2>in the way that you are trusting the exorcism. There's

886
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:37.199
<v Speaker 2>some inconsistencies that you may here with religious people in that.

887
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:39.119
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if any of that helped.

888
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:42.199
<v Speaker 7>I am and I just I just you know. In concluding,

889
00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:45.360
<v Speaker 7>I just wanted to say, like, I don't care what

890
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:48.519
<v Speaker 7>a person believes in. I just when it comes to

891
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:53.280
<v Speaker 7>essential services like hospitals, I don't think they should be

892
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:57.159
<v Speaker 7>church run. I don't think there should be that religious influence,

893
00:49:57.280 --> 00:50:00.920
<v Speaker 7>especially if it's in a rural place where whether you're

894
00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:03.559
<v Speaker 7>a Christian or not, that's the nearest hospital to go to.

895
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:08.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And for example, like another thing, because I've kind

896
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:12.480
<v Speaker 2>of been in between jobs lately. I was looking at

897
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:16.480
<v Speaker 2>ways to do some more community medicine, and pretty much

898
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:20.800
<v Speaker 2>the only organization going out well, I guess there's two

899
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:25.320
<v Speaker 2>organizations going out on ships like big hospital ships. The

900
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:29.519
<v Speaker 2>only one that's like not military run is a Christian

901
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:33.280
<v Speaker 2>organization And if you apply to work there, they require

902
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:38.239
<v Speaker 2>a statement of faith, So they require you to share

903
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:42.000
<v Speaker 2>your testimony and to be sure that you believe the

904
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:44.679
<v Speaker 2>right things before you go work on this hospital ship.

905
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:46.960
<v Speaker 2>So that kind of calls in a question, is your

906
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:52.559
<v Speaker 2>agenda to actually heal people or is your agenda to evangelize?

907
00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:55.559
<v Speaker 2>And so we need, we definitely need to step up

908
00:50:55.760 --> 00:50:58.679
<v Speaker 2>our game on the secular humanist side and say, you know,

909
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:01.239
<v Speaker 2>we can have a boat too, not only have a

910
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:03.360
<v Speaker 2>boat and go out and do the same things, but

911
00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:06.639
<v Speaker 2>just not have the faith statement question, just have what

912
00:51:06.679 --> 00:51:09.920
<v Speaker 2>are your credentials and like, can you do the job

913
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:10.760
<v Speaker 2>that we need you to do.

914
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:13.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, in an ideal world, it would be great to

915
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:16.679
<v Speaker 1>be able to excize like religious bias from these things

916
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:20.960
<v Speaker 1>that all hospitals and secular run and nonprofit if possible

917
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:24.079
<v Speaker 1>and these kinds of things. But if we just as

918
00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:30.400
<v Speaker 1>the world stands right now, just excise religion from medicine. One,

919
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.360
<v Speaker 1>we're cutting off a massive source of resources and funding

920
00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.199
<v Speaker 1>for everything from the medical care itself to research and

921
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:41.039
<v Speaker 1>all that kind of stuff and charitable care. And secondly,

922
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:46.480
<v Speaker 1>we are cutting off community outreach. Like if, for example,

923
00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:49.400
<v Speaker 1>the organization I work for refuse to work with religious

924
00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:53.559
<v Speaker 1>organizations because of their potential biases, more women out there

925
00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:57.159
<v Speaker 1>would have missed their breast cancer screenings and their cervical

926
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:01.960
<v Speaker 1>cancer screenings, because it's those Sundays groups after Mass where

927
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:04.719
<v Speaker 1>the ladies get around and pass out the pamphlets and

928
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:07.519
<v Speaker 1>talk about when they should get their mammograms, and it's like,

929
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:10.760
<v Speaker 1>is it ideal? No, but it's kind of it's the

930
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:12.960
<v Speaker 1>world we live in, and the change is going to

931
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:18.760
<v Speaker 1>have to come incrementally and really quite painfully slowly. So

932
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:22.199
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's an easily solved issue. I don't

933
00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:24.360
<v Speaker 1>think it's one that's going to go away anytime soon.

934
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:27.760
<v Speaker 1>And as Dr Ben was saying, it behooves us in

935
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:32.159
<v Speaker 1>the secular humanist community to try and provide better alternatives

936
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.239
<v Speaker 1>to allow people to just get what they need without

937
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:38.320
<v Speaker 1>any of the whole and don't forget to thank Jesus

938
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:41.639
<v Speaker 1>for for this healing that you have received.

939
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:44.800
<v Speaker 7>Of course. Okay, well thanks for the conversation. I just

940
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:51.039
<v Speaker 7>wanted to know your opinion on that.

941
00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:53.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think we're very much in agreement with you.

942
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:55.639
<v Speaker 1>We're very much in agreement with you, Alisa. Yeah, we

943
00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:57.239
<v Speaker 1>are very frustrated to.

944
00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:01.199
<v Speaker 7>Okay, well, thanks so much for us. I really do

945
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:04.679
<v Speaker 7>appreciate the discussion because I don't think people sometimes I

946
00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:08.480
<v Speaker 7>don't think that people consider like different ways religion can

947
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:11.880
<v Speaker 7>harm people. And I'm not saying that all religious people

948
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:12.800
<v Speaker 7>are like that.

949
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:13.480
<v Speaker 4>That's not true.

950
00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:16.960
<v Speaker 7>It's mostly when you see things like that, it's mostly

951
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:19.760
<v Speaker 7>just kind of people who are on the extreme side.

952
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:24.760
<v Speaker 7>And yeah, anyway, I gotta go, but thank you for

953
00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:27.559
<v Speaker 7>answering my question. And I do hope you guys have

954
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:28.239
<v Speaker 7>a good weekend.

955
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.880
<v Speaker 2>Intend Thank you so much, Lisa, have a great rest

956
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.119
<v Speaker 2>of your Sunday. And with that, it is it is

957
00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:40.039
<v Speaker 2>that time. It is that time of the stream, Jamie,

958
00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:42.480
<v Speaker 2>would you like to do the honors and read the

959
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.440
<v Speaker 2>top five patrons.

960
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:47.519
<v Speaker 1>These names of those that have given of themselves for

961
00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:52.239
<v Speaker 1>our cause. Champions, heroes, every jack of them, and they

962
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:55.960
<v Speaker 1>are at number one oops all Singularity and at number

963
00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:01.239
<v Speaker 1>two still it's been two years, Barry Jackson, whoever they are,

964
00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:03.639
<v Speaker 1>I will never not giggle when I'm talking about your name.

965
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:09.800
<v Speaker 1>Number three, Calari Helvetti, number four, Carlton, number five, moldread

966
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:16.679
<v Speaker 1>d malcontent awesome, and our honorable mention is Ted Duision

967
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:20.159
<v Speaker 1>d Ui Duisian Duision. I'm sorry I've butchered your name,

968
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:23.679
<v Speaker 1>but thank you very much for all of your support.

969
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:26.840
<v Speaker 1>We literally couldn't do what we do without you. And

970
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:30.599
<v Speaker 1>if you out there in great listener and want to

971
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:35.360
<v Speaker 1>be included in this pantheon of wonderful people, you can

972
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:39.840
<v Speaker 1>do so at tiny dot c c ford slash, Patreon

973
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:42.119
<v Speaker 1>t H and give whatever you can.

974
00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:46.199
<v Speaker 2>Every little helps absolutely. All right, are you ready for

975
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:47.480
<v Speaker 2>another caller?

976
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:49.239
<v Speaker 1>All right?

977
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:53.800
<v Speaker 2>So we have Benji. He him from Alabama. Sounds like

978
00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:57.119
<v Speaker 2>he wants to talk about real religious people are in

979
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:01.679
<v Speaker 2>denial of God being bad. Benji, you are alive on talk?

980
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:05.960
<v Speaker 2>He then, can you clarify your your conversation topic for us?

981
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:11.159
<v Speaker 5>Yeah? Uh yeah, so I was in earlier and I'm

982
00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:13.519
<v Speaker 5>kind of I didn't mean to bombarded the guy with

983
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:17.159
<v Speaker 5>a hundred different you know, kind of problems with the Bible,

984
00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:19.760
<v Speaker 5>but they just kind of came out naturally pretty much.

985
00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:25.199
<v Speaker 5>And then I told him that God created evil and

986
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:27.400
<v Speaker 5>he was like, oh, well, no he didn't. You know,

987
00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:31.679
<v Speaker 5>evil came in the world through humans and sin and

988
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:35.039
<v Speaker 5>YadA YadA. And I said, which I couldn't remember the verse,

989
00:55:35.079 --> 00:55:38.719
<v Speaker 5>but it literally says, you know, I created good and

990
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:41.719
<v Speaker 5>evil like you created light and dark. That in evil,

991
00:55:41.800 --> 00:55:45.960
<v Speaker 5>YadA YadA. So I told him that, and it's like

992
00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:49.599
<v Speaker 5>his brain just malfumpson, like he taught about it for

993
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:52.800
<v Speaker 5>maybe like a split second, and then he asked me, well,

994
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:54.760
<v Speaker 5>where's it at? And I was like, well, I think

995
00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:57.440
<v Speaker 5>it's an Ezekiel, but am not one hundred percent, sir,

996
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:00.719
<v Speaker 5>but I know it was. I knew, I know it's

997
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:04.320
<v Speaker 5>in there. And and then he just kind of he

998
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:07.360
<v Speaker 5>kind of just blusted off and kind of just you know,

999
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:10.360
<v Speaker 5>like thanks to subject pretty much is like you stay

1000
00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:13.920
<v Speaker 5>in for church. I'm like, no, not today, but I

1001
00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:16.760
<v Speaker 5>mean it's like, you know, it just kind of threw

1002
00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:18.920
<v Speaker 5>me on guard a little bit, because, like, you know,

1003
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:21.719
<v Speaker 5>if he's a Tristan, because he said he's been a

1004
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:25.440
<v Speaker 5>Tristan for decades, you would thank somebody that's been that

1005
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:28.440
<v Speaker 5>way for decades. Would at least lead the Bible, because

1006
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:32.320
<v Speaker 5>if you weed the if you absolutely read the entire Bible,

1007
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:35.599
<v Speaker 5>you're gonna end up reading that part anyway. So like

1008
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:39.480
<v Speaker 5>somebody that says that about Tristan, you know, they would

1009
00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:43.000
<v Speaker 5>already know that, And the fact that it surplied him

1010
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:45.039
<v Speaker 5>and he didn't know that what on pretty said he

1011
00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:47.800
<v Speaker 5>didn't know that because they caught him off guard. I

1012
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:50.159
<v Speaker 5>was just gonna get y'all's opinion on that. I mean,

1013
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:52.320
<v Speaker 5>I feel kind of bad for the guy too.

1014
00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:55.880
<v Speaker 1>But I mean your initial question of religious people, I mean,

1015
00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:59.239
<v Speaker 1>it seems like you're talking specifically about Christians, and there

1016
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:03.639
<v Speaker 1>are the major religions do predicate that their God is good.

1017
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:06.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, God is great. Not all religions do very Historically,

1018
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:09.400
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the pantheon based religions like Greek and

1019
00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Norse and stuff, their gods were more like people, flawed

1020
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:16.599
<v Speaker 1>and potentially bad and capable of doing wrong things. They

1021
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:20.440
<v Speaker 1>weren't paragons like the Abrahamic God is often lifted up

1022
00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:22.840
<v Speaker 1>as But you are correct. Again, I don't know the

1023
00:57:23.599 --> 00:57:25.199
<v Speaker 1>exact versus the top of my head, but I'm pretty

1024
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:26.960
<v Speaker 1>sure there is a a verse in the Bible where

1025
00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:30.119
<v Speaker 1>God literally says I do all these things. I create

1026
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:31.719
<v Speaker 1>the light in the dark, I create good and evil.

1027
00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:36.159
<v Speaker 1>And also there's the whole. If he's triomne, they be

1028
00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:40.360
<v Speaker 1>all powerful. Then everything that happens is his purview, good

1029
00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:42.800
<v Speaker 1>or evil, and it's all part of the plant.

1030
00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:46.840
<v Speaker 5>Which would make cam boast any boy.

1031
00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:53.639
<v Speaker 1>Yes, depending on your interpretation. But there's an entire religious

1032
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:59.360
<v Speaker 1>philosophy called the theodicy, which is explaining evil under the

1033
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:01.519
<v Speaker 1>auspices of a good God, and that's been going on

1034
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:06.840
<v Speaker 1>since before Christ, like the Epicurean trilemma is the famous example.

1035
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:08.639
<v Speaker 1>You know, whence it come with gard and all that.

1036
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:12.320
<v Speaker 1>We've been wrangling with this idea for longer than Christianity

1037
00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:17.199
<v Speaker 1>has been Christianity, and and no good answer has yet

1038
00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:20.360
<v Speaker 1>to be brought forward. So I mean you are pointing

1039
00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:24.440
<v Speaker 1>out something that in some cases for many, for many

1040
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:30.000
<v Speaker 1>religious adherents, especially Christians, Muslims, Jewish jew I think maybe

1041
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.719
<v Speaker 1>there may be an argument that Jewish people understand that

1042
00:58:32.840 --> 00:58:35.159
<v Speaker 1>God's not the greatest guy on the planet. But you'd

1043
00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:38.199
<v Speaker 1>have to ask what you have to ask them. Yes,

1044
00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:41.360
<v Speaker 1>I agree it is. It is cognitive dissonance. But like

1045
00:58:41.559 --> 00:58:43.800
<v Speaker 1>you're basically calling in saying water is wet. I mean,

1046
00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:47.079
<v Speaker 1>it's almost self evident. Got any thoughts on this, ben.

1047
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:52.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Yeah, it's a situation where essentially Christianity has to

1048
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:57.599
<v Speaker 2>deal with inconsistencies in the Bible and even direct contradictions between.

1049
00:58:57.320 --> 00:58:59.679
<v Speaker 3>The Bible and their worldview.

1050
00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:04.800
<v Speaker 2>And so the verse that we're talking about is Isaiah

1051
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:07.519
<v Speaker 2>forty five to seven, which says I form the light

1052
00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:10.280
<v Speaker 2>and create darkness, I make peace and create evil.

1053
00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:12.000
<v Speaker 3>I the Lord do all these things.

1054
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:15.320
<v Speaker 2>And of course, oftentimes when you bring this up to

1055
00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:19.280
<v Speaker 2>a Christian there's a lot of mental gymnastics going on

1056
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:23.039
<v Speaker 2>because they have a couple options. They either have the

1057
00:59:23.079 --> 00:59:27.800
<v Speaker 2>option of, you know, reconciling that like there's a difference

1058
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:33.280
<v Speaker 2>here and saying, you know, the Bible can't be the perfect,

1059
00:59:33.800 --> 00:59:39.760
<v Speaker 2>unaltered word of God. Or they can say, well, the

1060
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Bible's the correct and that my viewpoint was wrong and

1061
00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:46.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to adjust my belief to what the text says.

1062
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Or they can try to keep this dissonance and just

1063
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:54.639
<v Speaker 2>not do anything about it but start making excuses for

1064
00:59:54.920 --> 00:59:59.719
<v Speaker 2>why the text actually confirms what they already believed. And

1065
00:59:59.800 --> 01:00:03.199
<v Speaker 2>that's often what people do. So they'll make statements like, oh, no,

1066
01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:07.039
<v Speaker 2>but he didn't. He didn't create evil. He created the

1067
01:00:07.159 --> 01:00:11.239
<v Speaker 2>circumstances in which evil could take place. He gave the

1068
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:15.039
<v Speaker 2>free will which allowed people to do evil, But he

1069
01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:17.960
<v Speaker 2>didn't actually create the evil. But then they're not recognizing

1070
01:00:17.960 --> 01:00:20.960
<v Speaker 2>that it says that he created the evil.

1071
01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:21.400
<v Speaker 5>He didn't.

1072
01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:25.400
<v Speaker 2>He wasn't just the dungeon master playing the role in

1073
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:28.960
<v Speaker 2>setting up the scenario. He was the one that caused

1074
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:32.239
<v Speaker 2>this to be in existence. And so you'll get you'll

1075
01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:36.599
<v Speaker 2>get different answers to of no, No, he wasn't creating

1076
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.719
<v Speaker 2>the evil part. He just created the consequences of evil.

1077
01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:43.159
<v Speaker 5>So, yeah, what he did was the first time you

1078
01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:45.920
<v Speaker 5>just said he he literally said half of what you

1079
01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:48.679
<v Speaker 5>just said. He's like, yeah, well no, he gave us

1080
01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:51.039
<v Speaker 5>free will and gave us choice and this and that,

1081
01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:54.280
<v Speaker 5>and I gave him the rebuttal, which was, you know,

1082
01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:58.760
<v Speaker 5>if God knows every time, then he knew that. You know,

1083
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:01.480
<v Speaker 5>basically he allowed and in the first place. So he's

1084
01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:05.360
<v Speaker 5>still responsible either way, even if he didn't directly create it,

1085
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:08.519
<v Speaker 5>which it says he did, Even if he knew about

1086
01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:11.199
<v Speaker 5>it ahead of time, that still makes him responsible because

1087
01:01:11.719 --> 01:01:15.000
<v Speaker 5>he could have stopped it. And I also brought up

1088
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:18.719
<v Speaker 5>the point that somebody. This was years ago that one

1089
01:01:18.760 --> 01:01:20.960
<v Speaker 5>of y'all pointed out, but I pointed it out to

1090
01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:24.599
<v Speaker 5>him at a few minutes ago when I talked to

1091
01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:28.639
<v Speaker 5>him about this, I said, I said that if God,

1092
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:32.760
<v Speaker 5>if somebody killed someone, right, and you're saying God is

1093
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:36.199
<v Speaker 5>all good, then that means somebody killing somebody was good.

1094
01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:38.760
<v Speaker 5>Either God could have stepped in and stopped it. But

1095
01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:40.800
<v Speaker 5>if he didn't, and it was part of his plan,

1096
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:43.920
<v Speaker 5>which means that he allows bad things to happen. But

1097
01:01:44.119 --> 01:01:47.199
<v Speaker 5>under their worldview, they would have to look at every

1098
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:51.320
<v Speaker 5>evil and good saying is good since they considered God

1099
01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:53.880
<v Speaker 5>to be the ultimate good, which means any bad he

1100
01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:57.199
<v Speaker 5>does he does would also be good, which is self confidentially,

1101
01:01:57.320 --> 01:01:58.639
<v Speaker 5>But they don't look at it that way.

1102
01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:01.960
<v Speaker 1>And that's the point basis of divine command theory. Yes,

1103
01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:05.320
<v Speaker 1>where got everything that God does and instructs is inherently

1104
01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:06.719
<v Speaker 1>good because it's God?

1105
01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:07.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

1106
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

1107
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.920
<v Speaker 2>The idea that it is possible to still grant free

1108
01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:15.360
<v Speaker 2>will and child proof the house like it doesn't take

1109
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:18.559
<v Speaker 2>away your free will to put the covers over the

1110
01:02:18.559 --> 01:02:22.079
<v Speaker 2>outlets and make sure that appliances aren't on when the

1111
01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:25.119
<v Speaker 2>children are like nearby and stuff right, and.

1112
01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:28.039
<v Speaker 5>He brought that. He also was like, oh, well that

1113
01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:30.320
<v Speaker 5>would affect to our free will. I might, No, it doesn't.

1114
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:32.320
<v Speaker 5>And then I told him those free will on oers

1115
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:37.079
<v Speaker 5>and those free will in heaven, you know, hypothetically, He's like, oh, well,

1116
01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:39.559
<v Speaker 5>there's no free will in heaven because there's no evil

1117
01:02:39.639 --> 01:02:42.599
<v Speaker 5>in heaven. I'm like, well, then how did Lucifer increase

1118
01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:45.320
<v Speaker 5>force and the angels decide that what it gives God?

1119
01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:47.599
<v Speaker 1>And these are all arguments we've had in the past

1120
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:49.880
<v Speaker 1>with fasts that have called in. Yeah. One of the

1121
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:52.800
<v Speaker 1>things though, I would say is that unless is saying

1122
01:02:53.159 --> 01:02:55.880
<v Speaker 1>God is good and therefore that's why you should follow

1123
01:02:55.960 --> 01:02:59.679
<v Speaker 1>these teachings, and his morality is better than yours. It's

1124
01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:02.199
<v Speaker 1>kind of just an academic discussion, you know. It's an

1125
01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:05.280
<v Speaker 1>interesting point to sort of go, hmm, some inconsistencies there.

1126
01:03:05.360 --> 01:03:09.280
<v Speaker 1>But unless someone's put trying to like litigate or legislator

1127
01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:12.559
<v Speaker 1>push that morality on me or people they care about,

1128
01:03:13.960 --> 01:03:16.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna just let them wrangle with it unless they

1129
01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:20.920
<v Speaker 1>want to have a discussion about it. Because this that I.

1130
01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:24.519
<v Speaker 5>Went earlier, they make a point of asking I mean,

1131
01:03:24.559 --> 01:03:27.079
<v Speaker 5>they've asked me like ten different times in one day.

1132
01:03:27.159 --> 01:03:30.800
<v Speaker 5>Literally if I you know, do I know God is

1133
01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:33.559
<v Speaker 5>God in my heart? YadA, YadA, And I would sit

1134
01:03:33.639 --> 01:03:35.519
<v Speaker 5>down and say, well, yeah, of course I know God,

1135
01:03:35.559 --> 01:03:37.679
<v Speaker 5>and I know the Bible at the back of my hand,

1136
01:03:37.760 --> 01:03:41.239
<v Speaker 5>and I would litually troape them verbatim, you know, the

1137
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:45.559
<v Speaker 5>stuff that they're getting at, because the third it's a search,

1138
01:03:45.559 --> 01:03:49.000
<v Speaker 5>a trust I believe, if I'm not mistaken, and their

1139
01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:53.480
<v Speaker 5>stuff is basically a combination of both I believe Baptists

1140
01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:56.559
<v Speaker 5>and Methodists and a little bit of other stuff. And

1141
01:03:56.639 --> 01:04:00.519
<v Speaker 5>then I bought up the you know, the good insane

1142
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:04.719
<v Speaker 5>because I maybe, you know, similar to a Gnostics essentially

1143
01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:07.639
<v Speaker 5>and believing in the old Christie had you said, where

1144
01:04:07.639 --> 01:04:11.000
<v Speaker 5>if you're doing good and good rewards you and that

1145
01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:13.760
<v Speaker 5>helps you get in the heaven. And also, I don't

1146
01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:15.920
<v Speaker 5>really believe that you have to go to search to

1147
01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:19.320
<v Speaker 5>get to heaven. That's you know, not really with fire

1148
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:21.440
<v Speaker 5>Man's I mean, it wasn't mentioned like that.

1149
01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:21.960
<v Speaker 2>You know.

1150
01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:24.760
<v Speaker 1>Let me just let me just jump in here, Benji,

1151
01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:27.400
<v Speaker 1>just for a second, because I've heard you say a

1152
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:29.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of this already in previous cause and things like that.

1153
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:32.800
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to matter it too much. But from

1154
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:35.440
<v Speaker 1>my perspective, we may as well be having an argument

1155
01:04:35.480 --> 01:04:39.119
<v Speaker 1>about the morality of lex luthor like and imagine every

1156
01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:43.320
<v Speaker 1>person a fictional character. So while this is all very

1157
01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:46.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, astute observation on your part, the fact that

1158
01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:49.079
<v Speaker 1>you are taught you from your perspective, are talking about

1159
01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:56.079
<v Speaker 1>someone you believe exists in actuality and I don't because

1160
01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:59.280
<v Speaker 1>I haven't had any evidence compelling enough to convince me

1161
01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:02.760
<v Speaker 1>of it. This is just this is just Bible fan

1162
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:04.440
<v Speaker 1>wank right now pretty much.

1163
01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:09.360
<v Speaker 5>So to see in mind, if I try to put

1164
01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:13.519
<v Speaker 5>God to you, if I could try that just for argument's.

1165
01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:17.159
<v Speaker 1>Sake, to quote the great Matthew Mercer, you can certainly try.

1166
01:05:17.320 --> 01:05:17.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1167
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:21.559
<v Speaker 2>But also also on the like, while we're just kind

1168
01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:24.559
<v Speaker 2>of leaving that initial topic, I would love for you

1169
01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:27.480
<v Speaker 2>to try to say the people that you were having

1170
01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:30.480
<v Speaker 2>these arguments with, please have them call into the show.

1171
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:35.159
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to address that particular issue about God creating

1172
01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:37.639
<v Speaker 2>evil with the people that you're having this discussion with.

1173
01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:40.199
<v Speaker 2>If they're willing to reach out, that would be awesome.

1174
01:05:40.480 --> 01:05:42.920
<v Speaker 5>I don't know if they would actually ask them, but

1175
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:44.199
<v Speaker 5>I mean.

1176
01:05:44.239 --> 01:05:45.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, just go to a shot.

1177
01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:48.639
<v Speaker 2>It would be it would be interesting, and we're we're

1178
01:05:48.679 --> 01:05:51.199
<v Speaker 2>willing to change our minds if they're willing to, like,

1179
01:05:51.320 --> 01:05:53.519
<v Speaker 2>if they bring in good arguments for it, and if

1180
01:05:53.840 --> 01:05:54.800
<v Speaker 2>they are convincing.

1181
01:05:54.960 --> 01:06:01.079
<v Speaker 5>So well we already know how that turns out. I

1182
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:04.199
<v Speaker 5>was gonna go ahead and try to argue for God myself,

1183
01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:05.920
<v Speaker 5>so I don't want to say hypocritical.

1184
01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:08.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, go for it, go for it, give us your

1185
01:06:08.599 --> 01:06:09.280
<v Speaker 3>argument for God.

1186
01:06:09.519 --> 01:06:11.800
<v Speaker 5>So why I'm trying to decide which one to go

1187
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:14.559
<v Speaker 5>with because I don't want to fall into a fallacy. Well,

1188
01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:17.559
<v Speaker 5>I could seeo edically, I could do it this way.

1189
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:22.599
<v Speaker 5>So I was watching a video one of y'all's videos yesterday,

1190
01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:24.960
<v Speaker 5>and there was a point with I don't know if

1191
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:28.519
<v Speaker 5>he's still on here or not, said, I can't remember

1192
01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:32.079
<v Speaker 5>the guy's name now, damn it. Well, basically he was

1193
01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:36.400
<v Speaker 5>saying that any evidence that would be presented to him

1194
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:40.000
<v Speaker 5>would be insufficient evidence because it would fire its coordinary

1195
01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:44.760
<v Speaker 5>evidence and not just ordinary evidence. And so in my mind,

1196
01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:48.960
<v Speaker 5>you know that, do y'all not falling into the terror

1197
01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:52.719
<v Speaker 5>fallacy with that? Like if I was to present evidence

1198
01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:57.559
<v Speaker 5>and evidence is dependent on your you know, observations or

1199
01:06:57.639 --> 01:07:03.400
<v Speaker 5>your experiences or even subject to y'all's either one of

1200
01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:06.480
<v Speaker 5>y'all's opinions on if that evidence is good enough for

1201
01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:08.719
<v Speaker 5>you or not, because at the end of that, you know,

1202
01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:12.639
<v Speaker 5>it is pretty much subjective because it depends on you know,

1203
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:15.559
<v Speaker 5>if that would you. It's not like I'm climbed.

1204
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:15.800
<v Speaker 3>No.

1205
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:21.599
<v Speaker 2>Evidence is not subjective, and there are degrees of how

1206
01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:25.159
<v Speaker 2>convincing certain pieces of evidence are, and I think that's

1207
01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:29.079
<v Speaker 2>what we're dealing with right now. Like there, it is

1208
01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:33.039
<v Speaker 2>easy to demonstrate that this chair is going to keep

1209
01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:34.840
<v Speaker 2>me held up for the rest of the show, because

1210
01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:36.480
<v Speaker 2>over and over and over again I've sat in the

1211
01:07:36.519 --> 01:07:40.039
<v Speaker 2>same chair and it's pretty reliable. I could calculate out

1212
01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:43.639
<v Speaker 2>the statistics of how many times this chair has successfully

1213
01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:47.440
<v Speaker 2>held me up during a Talkie Ethan show, and it's

1214
01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:48.599
<v Speaker 2>pretty significant.

1215
01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:50.719
<v Speaker 3>It's and if I told.

1216
01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:53.639
<v Speaker 2>Jamie, you know, hey, this chair is pretty surty, I'm

1217
01:07:53.719 --> 01:07:56.039
<v Speaker 2>confident that it's not going to fall over during the show.

1218
01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:57.239
<v Speaker 3>I could still be wrong.

1219
01:07:57.360 --> 01:07:59.440
<v Speaker 2>It could be the time where it breaks, but I

1220
01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:04.280
<v Speaker 2>have enough evidence to where I'm convinced of the proposition.

1221
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:08.519
<v Speaker 2>The difference is nobody really cares about my chair most

1222
01:08:08.519 --> 01:08:10.679
<v Speaker 2>of the time. Nobody gives a crap if I go

1223
01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:12.559
<v Speaker 2>out in public and I say, hey, did you know

1224
01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:15.159
<v Speaker 2>that my chair is really sturdy and it can it

1225
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:17.359
<v Speaker 2>can hold me while I sit in it. Nobody is

1226
01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:19.920
<v Speaker 2>really going to baton I because that's what the chair

1227
01:08:20.159 --> 01:08:22.720
<v Speaker 2>is supposed to do, and everyone has been in a

1228
01:08:22.840 --> 01:08:25.399
<v Speaker 2>chair that has done a good job being a chair.

1229
01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:25.880
<v Speaker 5>Uh.

1230
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:29.760
<v Speaker 2>But when we get to God claims in supernatural claims,

1231
01:08:29.800 --> 01:08:33.520
<v Speaker 2>that's why there's the standard of evidence to be convincing

1232
01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:38.079
<v Speaker 2>changes because you need number one, you're trying to demonstrate

1233
01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:42.520
<v Speaker 2>something that is less common, and you have you have

1234
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:48.319
<v Speaker 2>the burden of having something that is statistically reliable to like, uh,

1235
01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:52.159
<v Speaker 2>make future predictions and to you know, be have that

1236
01:08:52.359 --> 01:08:56.560
<v Speaker 2>same truth demonstrated over and over again. And we we

1237
01:08:56.840 --> 01:08:59.880
<v Speaker 2>don't get that with God claims. So yes, there is

1238
01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:03.039
<v Speaker 2>a difference, but it's not subjective. And you can even

1239
01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:07.600
<v Speaker 2>break this down like statistically into like what very what

1240
01:09:07.800 --> 01:09:12.039
<v Speaker 2>variables do to the statistical significance of the particular problem.

1241
01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:18.760
<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, it seems like it's subjective octive that is,

1242
01:09:19.000 --> 01:09:22.640
<v Speaker 2>that is objective, and the majority of the majority of

1243
01:09:22.680 --> 01:09:27.079
<v Speaker 2>people asking for evidence with this are asking for objective evidence.

1244
01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:30.319
<v Speaker 2>We're asking for something that isn't going to be reliant

1245
01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:32.960
<v Speaker 2>on me having faith in it or not, and it

1246
01:09:33.079 --> 01:09:34.600
<v Speaker 2>can still be out to me whether or not. Like

1247
01:09:34.800 --> 01:09:38.319
<v Speaker 2>I accept stats, but that is not a problem with

1248
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:41.159
<v Speaker 2>the stats. That's a problem with the person understanding the stats.

1249
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:45.159
<v Speaker 2>But if if something can be statistically demonstrated, that's going

1250
01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:48.000
<v Speaker 2>to be a lot harder to debunk and a lot

1251
01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:50.239
<v Speaker 2>harder to disbelieve.

1252
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:52.199
<v Speaker 5>Well, I mean I could do this in a few

1253
01:09:52.279 --> 01:09:55.000
<v Speaker 5>different steps. I mean I could say, number one, that

1254
01:09:55.199 --> 01:10:00.960
<v Speaker 5>the the universe evolved in a way that created life.

1255
01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:03.560
<v Speaker 5>And then I should say that the Earth evolved in

1256
01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:06.520
<v Speaker 5>a way after millions of years for life to form

1257
01:10:07.000 --> 01:10:09.159
<v Speaker 5>and toak someone earlier.

1258
01:10:09.560 --> 01:10:12.439
<v Speaker 2>That's that's a claim, that's a claim in itself.

1259
01:10:12.560 --> 01:10:13.560
<v Speaker 3>That's not evidence.

1260
01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:17.159
<v Speaker 5>That's not evidence, right, right, But the clients are supported

1261
01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:19.680
<v Speaker 5>by science. So I could go step by step.

1262
01:10:20.199 --> 01:10:21.920
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, But here's the here's the problem.

1263
01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Here's the problem though, because yes, we have the the

1264
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:29.399
<v Speaker 2>idea that like we have our planet, we have our universe,

1265
01:10:29.760 --> 01:10:33.039
<v Speaker 2>we have organisms that evolved over time to what they

1266
01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:36.920
<v Speaker 2>are now. However, we cannot like we have that stuff

1267
01:10:37.000 --> 01:10:41.279
<v Speaker 2>demonstrated by science. We do not have a reason, we

1268
01:10:41.359 --> 01:10:44.000
<v Speaker 2>don't have evidence to say that God is connected to

1269
01:10:44.079 --> 01:10:46.079
<v Speaker 2>that at all. And the problem with a lot of

1270
01:10:46.119 --> 01:10:49.840
<v Speaker 2>God claims is that there isn't a way to connect them.

1271
01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:53.439
<v Speaker 2>It's just asserted that this is a possible answer.

1272
01:10:53.920 --> 01:10:57.439
<v Speaker 5>If I took if I took all of those steps

1273
01:10:57.840 --> 01:11:01.520
<v Speaker 5>right at the universe beginning the Big Bain model, the

1274
01:11:01.640 --> 01:11:06.119
<v Speaker 5>universe having multiple galaxies and planets and everything else, the

1275
01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:10.800
<v Speaker 5>ods forming, the sun forming uh, the os forming water,

1276
01:11:11.399 --> 01:11:16.000
<v Speaker 5>water created lives or bacteria that created the lives or

1277
01:11:16.119 --> 01:11:19.760
<v Speaker 5>elements lather that created the live and and then life

1278
01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:23.640
<v Speaker 5>evolving for millions of years and creating people like Benji.

1279
01:11:23.800 --> 01:11:27.279
<v Speaker 2>Do you understand how probability works? So wanting so, do

1280
01:11:27.399 --> 01:11:29.159
<v Speaker 2>you understand how probability works?

1281
01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:31.359
<v Speaker 6>Yes, it's a fifty sixty.

1282
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:32.760
<v Speaker 4>No no, no, no, no, no no.

1283
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:36.920
<v Speaker 2>So this is this is actually a more complicated aspect

1284
01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:39.760
<v Speaker 2>of probability. So like, let let's say if I have

1285
01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:43.439
<v Speaker 2>a bag of marbles and I have a certain amount

1286
01:11:43.560 --> 01:11:45.880
<v Speaker 2>that are red, a certain amount that are green, a

1287
01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:48.720
<v Speaker 2>certain amount that are blue, and if I said, my, my,

1288
01:11:49.359 --> 01:11:52.800
<v Speaker 2>it would be cool if I had three red marbles.

1289
01:11:53.079 --> 01:11:55.760
<v Speaker 2>If I only picked three mar three red marbles in

1290
01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:59.199
<v Speaker 2>a row. When I start, before I pull out a

1291
01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:03.399
<v Speaker 2>single marble. Sure, if all the marbles aren't equal amounts, sure,

1292
01:12:03.479 --> 01:12:07.880
<v Speaker 2>there's equal probability of getting any of those marbles, and

1293
01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:09.880
<v Speaker 2>it's a less chance that I'm going to get three

1294
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:13.239
<v Speaker 2>red ones in a row. However, if I pull out

1295
01:12:13.359 --> 01:12:17.279
<v Speaker 2>a red marble on the first try, the probability still

1296
01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:19.960
<v Speaker 2>is higher that all three of them are going to

1297
01:12:20.039 --> 01:12:20.479
<v Speaker 2>be red.

1298
01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:22.680
<v Speaker 3>Then if I pulled out a blue.

1299
01:12:22.520 --> 01:12:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Marble, Like if I pulled out a blue marble from

1300
01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:28.600
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, there's like a zero chance that I'm going

1301
01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:32.159
<v Speaker 2>to get three red marbles in a row at the beginning,

1302
01:12:33.039 --> 01:12:35.479
<v Speaker 2>But if I pull out a red one, then it's

1303
01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:39.279
<v Speaker 2>more likely that the end result is going to happen

1304
01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:41.760
<v Speaker 2>with three red marbles. So what we have here in

1305
01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:44.920
<v Speaker 2>our universe, Yeah, if you calculate, if you think about probability,

1306
01:12:44.960 --> 01:12:47.239
<v Speaker 2>as in, there's such a small chance that all of

1307
01:12:47.359 --> 01:12:49.600
<v Speaker 2>these things could happen in the way that they do.

1308
01:12:50.119 --> 01:12:53.800
<v Speaker 2>The problem is you're not starting from ground zero every

1309
01:12:53.920 --> 01:12:57.720
<v Speaker 2>single time another event happens. You're starting from the place

1310
01:12:57.800 --> 01:13:01.479
<v Speaker 2>where an event already happened, and now the next one

1311
01:13:01.720 --> 01:13:04.600
<v Speaker 2>the probability of the next one happening after this first

1312
01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:07.479
<v Speaker 2>event happened, So you can't look at it as if

1313
01:13:07.520 --> 01:13:10.720
<v Speaker 2>probability from a vacuum every single time. And I think

1314
01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:15.159
<v Speaker 2>there's a misunderstanding with what what is the probability of

1315
01:13:15.319 --> 01:13:18.199
<v Speaker 2>these things under the circumstances that have already occurred.

1316
01:13:18.399 --> 01:13:20.239
<v Speaker 5>And the other suit you pull is going to be

1317
01:13:20.279 --> 01:13:22.199
<v Speaker 5>with that's not a guarantee.

1318
01:13:22.520 --> 01:13:25.000
<v Speaker 3>If you pull a guarantee, it's not a guarantee.

1319
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:27.600
<v Speaker 2>But do you understand that? Do you understand that? Do

1320
01:13:27.640 --> 01:13:31.680
<v Speaker 2>you understand that we're not starting from zero every single time?

1321
01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:35.960
<v Speaker 2>The fact that an event occurred changes the probability from

1322
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:39.279
<v Speaker 2>a would have been before you had picked up any marble.

1323
01:13:39.479 --> 01:13:42.479
<v Speaker 2>And so that's what is we're seeing here, Like, sure,

1324
01:13:42.920 --> 01:13:46.039
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like there's very little probability for all these

1325
01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:49.760
<v Speaker 2>events to happen, but as they happen, the probability changes

1326
01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:51.720
<v Speaker 2>for another similar event to happen.

1327
01:13:51.960 --> 01:13:55.279
<v Speaker 5>Right, But you're still starting from strant the more you're

1328
01:13:55.319 --> 01:13:58.119
<v Speaker 5>not in and trying to pick them all when it's

1329
01:13:58.239 --> 01:14:02.640
<v Speaker 5>one one, one circumstance, one circumstance where you're starting from

1330
01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:05.039
<v Speaker 5>zero from what we from what we know, and we

1331
01:14:05.319 --> 01:14:06.079
<v Speaker 5>don't have, we.

1332
01:14:06.119 --> 01:14:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Don't have evidence, we won't probably won't ever have evidence

1333
01:14:09.079 --> 01:14:12.079
<v Speaker 2>of how many rolls of the dice, if you will,

1334
01:14:12.239 --> 01:14:15.359
<v Speaker 2>things had in order to get to where we're at now.

1335
01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:19.600
<v Speaker 2>But the fact is there is only that one time

1336
01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:24.279
<v Speaker 2>where it went from from ground zero to then having

1337
01:14:24.319 --> 01:14:27.000
<v Speaker 2>an event occur. And so but once you have that

1338
01:14:27.199 --> 01:14:31.199
<v Speaker 2>first event occur, the probability is not the same as

1339
01:14:31.319 --> 01:14:33.239
<v Speaker 2>from being ground zero every single time.

1340
01:14:33.399 --> 01:14:36.119
<v Speaker 5>Okay, if you will to dice and the dice lands

1341
01:14:36.199 --> 01:14:38.920
<v Speaker 5>on one, and then you will the dice again and

1342
01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:41.520
<v Speaker 5>it lands on one again, and you will the dice

1343
01:14:41.560 --> 01:14:42.520
<v Speaker 5>again and it lands.

1344
01:14:42.319 --> 01:14:45.720
<v Speaker 2>On that's not That's not the circumstance that we're talking about.

1345
01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:50.000
<v Speaker 2>We're not talking about just happenstance each dice roll in isolation.

1346
01:14:50.359 --> 01:14:53.039
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about how many Like if we're trying to

1347
01:14:53.079 --> 01:14:56.920
<v Speaker 2>get a yachtzi and you roll certain dice that allow

1348
01:14:57.039 --> 01:14:59.840
<v Speaker 2>you to get that. Let's say you roll like, uh,

1349
01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:02.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't even remember how to play yazi, Like you

1350
01:15:02.520 --> 01:15:05.680
<v Speaker 2>get three sixes on the first role, it's more likely

1351
01:15:05.760 --> 01:15:07.520
<v Speaker 2>that you're going to be able to achieve a yatzi

1352
01:15:07.680 --> 01:15:10.439
<v Speaker 2>than if you got like all different numbers on the

1353
01:15:10.479 --> 01:15:14.079
<v Speaker 2>first role. Right, So, I think your understanding of probability

1354
01:15:14.560 --> 01:15:19.399
<v Speaker 2>is limited to a very very basic understanding of stats.

1355
01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:22.880
<v Speaker 5>It's not. I just pointed out the flaw that you gave.

1356
01:15:23.399 --> 01:15:26.039
<v Speaker 5>These flaws in the example you gave with the.

1357
01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:29.439
<v Speaker 2>But you're giving, you're giving an argument from probability. So

1358
01:15:29.800 --> 01:15:32.399
<v Speaker 2>if you're saying that these probability, the probability is so

1359
01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:35.720
<v Speaker 2>low of all these things happening, how did you calculate that?

1360
01:15:35.840 --> 01:15:38.319
<v Speaker 3>How did you figure that out? Did you do the math?

1361
01:15:38.680 --> 01:15:39.119
<v Speaker 6>How many?

1362
01:15:39.239 --> 01:15:42.640
<v Speaker 5>Okay, yeah, so I'll just point something out. Do you

1363
01:15:42.760 --> 01:15:45.199
<v Speaker 5>know how many events have happened that could have wiped

1364
01:15:45.880 --> 01:15:47.000
<v Speaker 5>out before it even mapped?

1365
01:15:47.039 --> 01:15:49.560
<v Speaker 3>I don't, and I don't. But that's the thing.

1366
01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:54.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm not asserting a claim that anything specific happened to

1367
01:15:54.920 --> 01:15:58.199
<v Speaker 2>get that. I don't know all of the events that

1368
01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:01.560
<v Speaker 2>led to here. I'm also not claiming a certain thing

1369
01:16:01.640 --> 01:16:04.520
<v Speaker 2>to be the start you are claiming. You are making

1370
01:16:04.600 --> 01:16:07.880
<v Speaker 2>that claim. So if you're making the claim that probably

1371
01:16:07.960 --> 01:16:13.279
<v Speaker 2>that there's a higher probability that a creator was responsible

1372
01:16:13.319 --> 01:16:16.159
<v Speaker 2>for that, you have to demonstrate that probability.

1373
01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:17.319
<v Speaker 3>So where are your numbers?

1374
01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:17.880
<v Speaker 6>Yeah?

1375
01:16:18.079 --> 01:16:21.680
<v Speaker 5>So there have been multiple I say, is we have

1376
01:16:21.800 --> 01:16:22.920
<v Speaker 5>had multiple violence.

1377
01:16:22.920 --> 01:16:25.560
<v Speaker 2>That's not an answer to my question, Benji, answer my question,

1378
01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:28.880
<v Speaker 2>where are your numbers? You said, probability is in favor

1379
01:16:29.199 --> 01:16:33.119
<v Speaker 2>of a god doing these things going, So, where is

1380
01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:33.760
<v Speaker 2>your math?

1381
01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:36.960
<v Speaker 5>And you gave me the gumball example, Okay, I.

1382
01:16:37.000 --> 01:16:39.119
<v Speaker 2>Gave you an example of the kind of math that

1383
01:16:39.239 --> 01:16:41.760
<v Speaker 2>you would need to demonstrate like you have to bring

1384
01:16:42.079 --> 01:16:44.640
<v Speaker 2>you cannot say. There's a huge pet peeve of mind

1385
01:16:44.920 --> 01:16:49.000
<v Speaker 2>people making a claim about probability or using probability as evidence,

1386
01:16:49.199 --> 01:16:52.039
<v Speaker 2>but then they don't actually do the math for their probability,

1387
01:16:52.279 --> 01:16:54.920
<v Speaker 2>like you're you're allowing maths to carry a lot of

1388
01:16:55.000 --> 01:16:57.960
<v Speaker 2>weight in this debate, but not actually bringing that math

1389
01:16:58.039 --> 01:17:00.439
<v Speaker 2>to the table. I don't want to take the whole

1390
01:17:00.439 --> 01:17:03.840
<v Speaker 2>conversation from from Jamie. I know he's having an aurism

1391
01:17:03.880 --> 01:17:06.039
<v Speaker 2>over there, Jamie, what are your thoughts?

1392
01:17:07.359 --> 01:17:10.720
<v Speaker 5>First, it could be any colored gumball. And then even

1393
01:17:10.840 --> 01:17:14.880
<v Speaker 5>if you picked two wear gumballs, I'm sorry, one ware gumball.

1394
01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:17.039
<v Speaker 5>That doesn't mean that the other two are going to

1395
01:17:17.079 --> 01:17:19.000
<v Speaker 5>be were that could still be any other color.

1396
01:17:19.479 --> 01:17:26.960
<v Speaker 1>No, no, both you both bends. Please please bens bens plural,

1397
01:17:27.239 --> 01:17:29.960
<v Speaker 1>Please allow me to have a little, a little interjection.

1398
01:17:30.039 --> 01:17:32.520
<v Speaker 1>I think one thing is I think the simple thing

1399
01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:35.720
<v Speaker 1>that Ben was Ben doctor Ben was trying to exemplifies

1400
01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:40.560
<v Speaker 1>that in his example, the the determining of the probability

1401
01:17:40.600 --> 01:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>of pulling out a certain marble necessary necessarily changes the

1402
01:17:45.399 --> 01:17:48.079
<v Speaker 1>probability of the next marble coming out red because it's

1403
01:17:48.079 --> 01:17:50.319
<v Speaker 1>a different amount of marbles in the bag now, So

1404
01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:52.039
<v Speaker 1>it's you know, it's that kind of thing.

1405
01:17:52.359 --> 01:17:55.560
<v Speaker 5>Secondly, that well, that's what I was trying to say,

1406
01:17:55.640 --> 01:17:56.399
<v Speaker 5>because okay.

1407
01:17:56.239 --> 01:18:00.479
<v Speaker 1>Cool, so we've cleared that up. Groovy, Please allow them

1408
01:18:00.560 --> 01:18:02.560
<v Speaker 1>to just say this next thing. I think another thing

1409
01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:10.640
<v Speaker 1>that that you're committing here, Benji, is you are presupposing

1410
01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:13.680
<v Speaker 1>that the current state of the universe was the goal

1411
01:18:14.079 --> 01:18:20.600
<v Speaker 1>or target, not the inevitable eventuality of the natural chain

1412
01:18:20.680 --> 01:18:26.199
<v Speaker 1>of causality. From that perspective, the actual probability of the

1413
01:18:26.359 --> 01:18:29.159
<v Speaker 1>universe being as it is one because we only have

1414
01:18:29.399 --> 01:18:32.560
<v Speaker 1>one universe, we don't have any other universes to compare

1415
01:18:32.600 --> 01:18:37.520
<v Speaker 1>it to. And so while any amount and considering that

1416
01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:40.239
<v Speaker 1>the that we don't know the span of time the

1417
01:18:40.359 --> 01:18:44.119
<v Speaker 1>universe is going to exist, it may be eternal, or

1418
01:18:44.239 --> 01:18:47.960
<v Speaker 1>at least close enough to that. Basically there is given

1419
01:18:48.119 --> 01:18:52.479
<v Speaker 1>enough time space and distance, the probability that everything that

1420
01:18:52.560 --> 01:18:56.720
<v Speaker 1>could happen will at some point happen. So again, You're

1421
01:18:56.720 --> 01:19:00.640
<v Speaker 1>saying that God set this Rube Goldberg machine in motion

1422
01:19:00.800 --> 01:19:02.520
<v Speaker 1>to get us to this point, and I'm saying we're

1423
01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:05.159
<v Speaker 1>at this point just because the machine worked that way,

1424
01:19:05.479 --> 01:19:09.159
<v Speaker 1>and that unless you can demonstrate that it's possible for

1425
01:19:09.359 --> 01:19:12.960
<v Speaker 1>a universe to exist without life in it and compare

1426
01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:16.000
<v Speaker 1>and have other universes to compare to, we can't really

1427
01:19:16.119 --> 01:19:18.560
<v Speaker 1>use probability in the way that you're talking about, because

1428
01:19:18.840 --> 01:19:22.680
<v Speaker 1>while it might seem astronomically impossible, and so many things

1429
01:19:22.760 --> 01:19:25.520
<v Speaker 1>had to go a certain way for us to be

1430
01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:29.359
<v Speaker 1>here having this conversation, they all did and we don't

1431
01:19:29.439 --> 01:19:31.640
<v Speaker 1>know whether they could have happened any other way. So

1432
01:19:32.239 --> 01:19:37.039
<v Speaker 1>that's where I'm coming from. It's the Douglas Adams puddle analogy.

1433
01:19:37.399 --> 01:19:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Isn't this whole perfect for me? I feel it perfectly.

1434
01:19:41.159 --> 01:19:44.159
<v Speaker 1>It must have been made for me. It must be intentional.

1435
01:19:44.279 --> 01:19:47.359
<v Speaker 1>You're essentially giving me the fine tuning argument. And again,

1436
01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:49.600
<v Speaker 1>just to go back to the cold open, it's the

1437
01:19:49.640 --> 01:19:52.760
<v Speaker 1>god of the gaps. We don't know exactly how the

1438
01:19:52.880 --> 01:19:55.520
<v Speaker 1>universe came to be, and you're proposing a god, and

1439
01:19:55.600 --> 01:19:58.399
<v Speaker 1>I'm proposing that it's naturalistic, and I feel like you're

1440
01:19:58.399 --> 01:20:01.279
<v Speaker 1>shoving that God in that gap, we'll say you Benji no.

1441
01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:03.479
<v Speaker 5>So I'm not doing the God of the gaps and

1442
01:20:03.560 --> 01:20:06.520
<v Speaker 5>I'm not doing the pine turning watchmaker argument. What I

1443
01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:09.359
<v Speaker 5>was trying to say is that if I was to

1444
01:20:09.520 --> 01:20:12.319
<v Speaker 5>add up right all of the times that during the

1445
01:20:12.439 --> 01:20:15.439
<v Speaker 5>Earth was forming, that it could have been discarded and

1446
01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:18.279
<v Speaker 5>hurting when it made the moon because the moon came

1447
01:20:18.319 --> 01:20:21.640
<v Speaker 5>from the Earth, or you know, all the climate changes,

1448
01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:25.000
<v Speaker 5>the ice ages, the virus is every other time that

1449
01:20:25.079 --> 01:20:29.239
<v Speaker 5>has happened, not counting Noah's florid of course. Then and

1450
01:20:29.319 --> 01:20:32.479
<v Speaker 5>then I take that and I put one to divide

1451
01:20:32.560 --> 01:20:36.119
<v Speaker 5>that into because this, you know, it created life, So

1452
01:20:36.239 --> 01:20:39.359
<v Speaker 5>I use that as the time. And then I say, well,

1453
01:20:39.640 --> 01:20:42.600
<v Speaker 5>there's a one out of whatever tant that you.

1454
01:20:42.640 --> 01:20:44.720
<v Speaker 3>Know but we don't. But we don't know.

1455
01:20:45.159 --> 01:20:49.159
<v Speaker 2>There's so many variables we're missing. You cannot make that calculation, ill,

1456
01:20:49.520 --> 01:20:52.640
<v Speaker 2>because I think you're misunderstanding what the N equals one

1457
01:20:52.800 --> 01:20:56.439
<v Speaker 2>thing is that Jamie was talking about. You can't determine

1458
01:20:56.479 --> 01:20:59.119
<v Speaker 2>statistical significance with an N equals one.

1459
01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:03.039
<v Speaker 5>I can add up how many times yours almost that destroyed,

1460
01:21:03.359 --> 01:21:04.239
<v Speaker 5>or I say that that.

1461
01:21:04.800 --> 01:21:08.479
<v Speaker 2>Means absolutely nothing. That means absolutely nothing. For the claim

1462
01:21:08.520 --> 01:21:09.359
<v Speaker 2>that you are making, I.

1463
01:21:09.399 --> 01:21:11.920
<v Speaker 1>Can add up all the times to Earth didn't get destroyed.

1464
01:21:12.000 --> 01:21:13.760
<v Speaker 1>I can add up all the times that we are

1465
01:21:13.800 --> 01:21:16.800
<v Speaker 1>still The very fact that we are still here. Having

1466
01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:21.199
<v Speaker 1>this argument is proof that the probability of this existence

1467
01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:25.439
<v Speaker 1>is the most likely, and there's no evidence that it

1468
01:21:25.560 --> 01:21:28.439
<v Speaker 1>was done on purpose or has an outside agent.

1469
01:21:29.119 --> 01:21:29.319
<v Speaker 5>Fact.

1470
01:21:29.479 --> 01:21:32.119
<v Speaker 2>The fact is we are missing too many variables to

1471
01:21:32.279 --> 01:21:36.039
<v Speaker 2>make these calculations, and so using probability as a way

1472
01:21:36.399 --> 01:21:40.039
<v Speaker 2>to demonstrate God just does not work because we have

1473
01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:41.279
<v Speaker 2>an incomplete equation.

1474
01:21:41.960 --> 01:21:46.319
<v Speaker 5>What variables? What other variables is there to consider?

1475
01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:50.039
<v Speaker 2>If I'm the variables that we don't know, variables that

1476
01:21:50.119 --> 01:21:52.720
<v Speaker 2>we do not know and probably will never know. We

1477
01:21:52.920 --> 01:21:56.800
<v Speaker 2>have to account for the unknown unknowns. We cannot do that.

1478
01:21:57.319 --> 01:21:59.640
<v Speaker 2>The only things we have we only have the one

1479
01:21:59.720 --> 01:22:02.560
<v Speaker 2>union that we know of. We have this one existence

1480
01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:06.560
<v Speaker 2>that we know of. We can hypothesize others, but we

1481
01:22:06.760 --> 01:22:10.880
<v Speaker 2>cannot we cannot confirm that we cannot get I mean,

1482
01:22:10.960 --> 01:22:15.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe someday we'll get sufficient evidence for these missing pieces

1483
01:22:15.079 --> 01:22:17.640
<v Speaker 2>of the puzzle, but at present they are missing. And

1484
01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:19.720
<v Speaker 2>so that's why we're saying you're falling into God of

1485
01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:22.800
<v Speaker 2>the gaps, Because the probability, you're trying. You're trying to

1486
01:22:23.600 --> 01:22:30.680
<v Speaker 2>adapt a probability equation for a scenario that the concept

1487
01:22:30.760 --> 01:22:33.680
<v Speaker 2>of probability does not work for. Like the math that

1488
01:22:33.760 --> 01:22:38.479
<v Speaker 2>we do has specific applications and specific times where it

1489
01:22:38.600 --> 01:22:41.840
<v Speaker 2>is actually useful. If you're outside the parameters of what

1490
01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:44.319
<v Speaker 2>that math can do, you're not going to get a

1491
01:22:44.439 --> 01:22:48.079
<v Speaker 2>reliable answer. So that's something that we have to take

1492
01:22:48.119 --> 01:22:48.960
<v Speaker 2>into consideration.

1493
01:22:49.520 --> 01:22:53.039
<v Speaker 5>Like if I can well vost it and do the

1494
01:22:53.119 --> 01:22:55.960
<v Speaker 5>exact same thing that you're claiming I'm doing, and I

1495
01:22:56.039 --> 01:22:57.359
<v Speaker 5>can say that you're doing, oh.

1496
01:22:57.359 --> 01:23:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Because no, Because what the different difference in what we're doing, Benji,

1497
01:23:02.279 --> 01:23:05.520
<v Speaker 2>is that you are saying that there is an explanation

1498
01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:10.039
<v Speaker 2>and that explanation is supernatural. We are saying that we

1499
01:23:10.279 --> 01:23:13.439
<v Speaker 2>don't know the variables that we don't know, and we

1500
01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:17.279
<v Speaker 2>can hypothesize, but we don't know. We don't have enough

1501
01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:20.479
<v Speaker 2>information to know that wow, And so we are not

1502
01:23:20.680 --> 01:23:22.760
<v Speaker 2>making a claim to know.

1503
01:23:23.960 --> 01:23:26.840
<v Speaker 5>How would that not be the same argument you're using.

1504
01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:29.239
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I could play god with science and then

1505
01:23:29.359 --> 01:23:31.680
<v Speaker 5>argue against you with the same thing that you're.

1506
01:23:31.520 --> 01:23:33.359
<v Speaker 3>Doing with me not claiming.

1507
01:23:34.039 --> 01:23:37.720
<v Speaker 2>We're not claiming that science is the one and only answer.

1508
01:23:37.840 --> 01:23:42.399
<v Speaker 2>And because science itself is a field of it's a methodology.

1509
01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Science is not an answer. We're not claiming science is

1510
01:23:45.640 --> 01:23:47.079
<v Speaker 2>an answer. It is a method.

1511
01:23:47.439 --> 01:23:49.600
<v Speaker 3>So you're misunderstanding our position.

1512
01:23:49.720 --> 01:23:52.079
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like and even if I grant you, Benji,

1513
01:23:52.159 --> 01:23:54.520
<v Speaker 1>let's let's let's for the sake of argument, Benji, let's

1514
01:23:54.520 --> 01:23:57.159
<v Speaker 1>say let's let me go with you. Let's say I

1515
01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:01.039
<v Speaker 1>agree with you that the the occurrence of intelligent life

1516
01:24:01.239 --> 01:24:05.039
<v Speaker 1>on this ball of rock we call Earth is like

1517
01:24:05.399 --> 01:24:11.039
<v Speaker 1>calculatively demonstrably like very unlikely, like like like dealing it

1518
01:24:11.199 --> 01:24:14.520
<v Speaker 1>like dealing, like dealing every spade out of a out

1519
01:24:14.560 --> 01:24:17.399
<v Speaker 1>of a deck of cards in order, you know, from

1520
01:24:17.439 --> 01:24:20.439
<v Speaker 1>a shuffled deck of cards. You know, something really really

1521
01:24:20.560 --> 01:24:25.279
<v Speaker 1>really unlikely. Just because it's very unlikely does not mean

1522
01:24:25.840 --> 01:24:28.880
<v Speaker 1>that it necessarily must have been put into action by

1523
01:24:28.960 --> 01:24:32.600
<v Speaker 1>an external agent. I mean, many things that are very

1524
01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:36.640
<v Speaker 1>unlikely happened for basically no good reason other than they

1525
01:24:36.840 --> 01:24:41.880
<v Speaker 1>just happen all the time. I encounter it daily. Perfectly

1526
01:24:42.079 --> 01:24:44.840
<v Speaker 1>healthy people that, just by dint of a bit of

1527
01:24:44.960 --> 01:24:48.079
<v Speaker 1>bad luck and the design floor in our genes, are

1528
01:24:48.159 --> 01:24:52.479
<v Speaker 1>struck with a horrific cancer for apparently no reason, and

1529
01:24:52.640 --> 01:24:56.880
<v Speaker 1>so unlikely. Things happen all the time, but there is

1530
01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:00.960
<v Speaker 1>no demonstration that they happen because they were designed to

1531
01:25:01.079 --> 01:25:02.960
<v Speaker 1>be that way by an external force.

1532
01:25:03.239 --> 01:25:06.600
<v Speaker 5>So the well, I agree with you there, I mean

1533
01:25:06.640 --> 01:25:09.640
<v Speaker 5>it also doesn't mean that it's impossible either, So.

1534
01:25:09.720 --> 01:25:12.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm not I'm not discounting God as an external force

1535
01:25:13.000 --> 01:25:16.079
<v Speaker 1>as a potential explanation, But until it is evident to

1536
01:25:16.199 --> 01:25:19.960
<v Speaker 1>me that such a thing exists, or even is even

1537
01:25:20.119 --> 01:25:23.119
<v Speaker 1>possible to exist, I'm not going to give it as

1538
01:25:23.199 --> 01:25:26.199
<v Speaker 1>much credence as the fact that the natural forces of

1539
01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the universe can tend for these things to come into

1540
01:25:29.920 --> 01:25:32.600
<v Speaker 1>coming to being. We know why we're here. For the

1541
01:25:32.680 --> 01:25:34.840
<v Speaker 1>most part, we can trace it all the way back

1542
01:25:34.880 --> 01:25:36.439
<v Speaker 1>pretty much to the plank time.

1543
01:25:36.640 --> 01:25:39.479
<v Speaker 5>Well before the big band stuff breaks down. But let

1544
01:25:39.600 --> 01:25:43.199
<v Speaker 5>me let me ask you this. So let's say that

1545
01:25:43.359 --> 01:25:46.680
<v Speaker 5>I had evidence, right, or just for the sake of argument,

1546
01:25:46.840 --> 01:25:48.960
<v Speaker 5>so I want to make a point. Let's say that

1547
01:25:49.079 --> 01:25:52.520
<v Speaker 5>I had evidence that would convince you, Sam, but not

1548
01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:56.159
<v Speaker 5>convince the other person. Okay, Now, how would I go

1549
01:25:56.319 --> 01:25:59.239
<v Speaker 5>about it? If I had evidence that would just convince

1550
01:25:59.399 --> 01:26:03.159
<v Speaker 5>you personally of a god, but not convince the other

1551
01:26:03.279 --> 01:26:06.479
<v Speaker 5>person of a god. Then you have different you have

1552
01:26:06.680 --> 01:26:12.760
<v Speaker 5>different expectations of evidence, then because I don't, because I might,

1553
01:26:12.960 --> 01:26:16.199
<v Speaker 5>I might give you evidence that would convince you but

1554
01:26:16.319 --> 01:26:18.560
<v Speaker 5>then not be enough to convince the other person, but

1555
01:26:18.680 --> 01:26:21.760
<v Speaker 5>it still convinces you, and to have, you know, and

1556
01:26:22.279 --> 01:26:24.720
<v Speaker 5>no offense to any of y'all. And I know you know,

1557
01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:28.079
<v Speaker 5>I respect gall and I know I get it. But

1558
01:26:28.880 --> 01:26:31.640
<v Speaker 5>if you had a tristan on here that said, you know,

1559
01:26:32.199 --> 01:26:34.920
<v Speaker 5>let's say that they had evidence and they presented their

1560
01:26:35.000 --> 01:26:37.880
<v Speaker 5>evidence and they convinced one of you and didn't convince

1561
01:26:37.920 --> 01:26:40.279
<v Speaker 5>the other one, then what would the point be of

1562
01:26:40.439 --> 01:26:43.279
<v Speaker 5>trying to call in and present evidence in the first place,

1563
01:26:43.359 --> 01:26:45.920
<v Speaker 5>Because if you all have different standards of evidence and

1564
01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:49.359
<v Speaker 5>different levels of evidence that you would accept as you know.

1565
01:26:50.239 --> 01:26:53.840
<v Speaker 2>So I would think, you don't really don't really go

1566
01:26:54.079 --> 01:26:55.239
<v Speaker 2>with this scenario.

1567
01:26:56.000 --> 01:26:58.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm down with it. I can imagine that we would

1568
01:26:58.199 --> 01:27:01.960
<v Speaker 1>be able to spin off an entire extra show of

1569
01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:06.079
<v Speaker 1>just the now believer trying to convince the rest of

1570
01:27:06.159 --> 01:27:12.159
<v Speaker 1>their hosts. What a concept. But again, as skeptics, I

1571
01:27:12.319 --> 01:27:15.479
<v Speaker 1>would want to I would be constantly questioning. Even if

1572
01:27:15.520 --> 01:27:19.119
<v Speaker 1>something was very convincing to me, I'd still be continually

1573
01:27:19.239 --> 01:27:20.600
<v Speaker 1>questioning it and.

1574
01:27:21.439 --> 01:27:24.159
<v Speaker 5>Why it can be a skeptic and believe in God.

1575
01:27:24.359 --> 01:27:26.840
<v Speaker 5>That's why you became an atheist in the first place.

1576
01:27:26.880 --> 01:27:28.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to Well, I've always been an atheist.

1577
01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:32.319
<v Speaker 1>I was never a believer, but I.

1578
01:27:34.520 --> 01:27:36.560
<v Speaker 5>Did know there were some that did believe, and they

1579
01:27:36.560 --> 01:27:39.640
<v Speaker 5>were skeptical, and then they used those skepticism and became

1580
01:27:40.239 --> 01:27:40.560
<v Speaker 5>that way.

1581
01:27:41.199 --> 01:27:44.560
<v Speaker 1>I've never seen someone skeptic their way into religion, at

1582
01:27:44.640 --> 01:27:47.880
<v Speaker 1>least not honestly into a god belief. But it would

1583
01:27:47.920 --> 01:27:51.239
<v Speaker 1>be fascinating if you were able to. And yes, everyone's different.

1584
01:27:51.319 --> 01:27:54.800
<v Speaker 1>Atheism is not an and secular humanism and all these

1585
01:27:54.840 --> 01:27:57.520
<v Speaker 1>things are not monoliths. We have no dogma, we have

1586
01:27:57.680 --> 01:28:01.159
<v Speaker 1>no overriding creed. Yes, standard of evidence may well be

1587
01:28:01.279 --> 01:28:06.039
<v Speaker 1>different than Ben's, probably relatively similar as these things go.

1588
01:28:06.279 --> 01:28:08.840
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I'm not saying it's impossible for me to

1589
01:28:08.920 --> 01:28:11.039
<v Speaker 1>be convinced of something and Ben to not be convinced

1590
01:28:11.039 --> 01:28:15.479
<v Speaker 1>of something. But uh, like, for example, I mean, I

1591
01:28:15.560 --> 01:28:17.680
<v Speaker 1>could try and pull examples out of my out of

1592
01:28:17.760 --> 01:28:20.039
<v Speaker 1>my ass for things that could be attributed to a God,

1593
01:28:20.159 --> 01:28:23.199
<v Speaker 1>but I could still give you things like my eyes

1594
01:28:23.239 --> 01:28:28.640
<v Speaker 1>suddenly become perfect, like like a miraculous, unexplained instantaneous healing

1595
01:28:28.960 --> 01:28:31.600
<v Speaker 1>of my vision problems which I've gone into in the past,

1596
01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:34.560
<v Speaker 1>but are physical in nature, like there's parts of my

1597
01:28:34.760 --> 01:28:39.319
<v Speaker 1>eyes missing that should be there. Yeah, I've heard, and

1598
01:28:39.399 --> 01:28:41.640
<v Speaker 1>that would be amazing and it would be crazy, And

1599
01:28:41.720 --> 01:28:44.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking that anybody immediately go right, We're going to

1600
01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:47.000
<v Speaker 1>get you into every scanner. We're going to start looking

1601
01:28:47.079 --> 01:28:49.680
<v Speaker 1>into this because maybe it was God, but it could

1602
01:28:49.680 --> 01:28:52.600
<v Speaker 1>have been a wizard, could have been nanomachines, could have

1603
01:28:52.640 --> 01:28:56.600
<v Speaker 1>been could have been anything. Maybe I've just manifested a superpower.

1604
01:28:56.720 --> 01:29:00.279
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. So while I could give creed that

1605
01:29:00.439 --> 01:29:05.560
<v Speaker 1>some amazingly powerful thing just happened, there's still a spectrum

1606
01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:12.840
<v Speaker 1>of potential explanatory sort of things that could explain what

1607
01:29:13.119 --> 01:29:15.880
<v Speaker 1>just happened to me. So while I would entertain a

1608
01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:19.560
<v Speaker 1>god or godlike figure, I can't rule out aliens or

1609
01:29:19.680 --> 01:29:26.760
<v Speaker 1>wizards or fairies, or spontaneous magic, superpowers, or some aspect

1610
01:29:26.840 --> 01:29:29.199
<v Speaker 1>of the human physiology little known.

1611
01:29:30.640 --> 01:29:33.479
<v Speaker 5>Also, Jeremy, if you don't mind, can I add something

1612
01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:35.920
<v Speaker 5>to that? So I'd say, for the sake of argument,

1613
01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:39.479
<v Speaker 5>that somehow your eyes did get healed, right, and you

1614
01:29:39.600 --> 01:29:42.279
<v Speaker 5>wanted to tell people, Hey, my eyes got healed I

1615
01:29:42.359 --> 01:29:47.760
<v Speaker 5>can see again now that by itself, by definition is subjective.

1616
01:29:47.960 --> 01:29:50.560
<v Speaker 1>No, because I would be able to have them take

1617
01:29:50.800 --> 01:29:53.359
<v Speaker 1>photographs of my retina and you could see that the

1618
01:29:53.479 --> 01:29:56.800
<v Speaker 1>scar tissue that was there is gone. Like I say,

1619
01:29:56.920 --> 01:29:58.960
<v Speaker 1>the things that are wrong with my eyes are very

1620
01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:03.600
<v Speaker 1>physical and physical and unless they are rectified, they my

1621
01:30:03.760 --> 01:30:05.239
<v Speaker 1>eyes will not get better.

1622
01:30:05.560 --> 01:30:08.880
<v Speaker 5>Right, Well, seeing my point there was it unless you

1623
01:30:09.039 --> 01:30:11.359
<v Speaker 5>have something you're compared to. Like if you have a

1624
01:30:11.439 --> 01:30:14.199
<v Speaker 5>photo of your eyes that have the start to issue

1625
01:30:14.239 --> 01:30:17.640
<v Speaker 5>on them, They're on my Facebook, and somehow your vision

1626
01:30:18.000 --> 01:30:20.479
<v Speaker 5>gets prepared and then they do it again and it

1627
01:30:20.600 --> 01:30:23.439
<v Speaker 5>has no damage, then you have something to compare it to.

1628
01:30:23.680 --> 01:30:26.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean the scenario of that my eyes do

1629
01:30:26.920 --> 01:30:30.000
<v Speaker 1>not physiologically change, but I can demonstrate that my vision

1630
01:30:30.199 --> 01:30:32.720
<v Speaker 1>is in fact perfect even though my eyes are still

1631
01:30:32.720 --> 01:30:35.880
<v Speaker 1>physically broken. That would be stepping into the realm of

1632
01:30:36.439 --> 01:30:39.560
<v Speaker 1>magic and the unexplained. But then again, how do you

1633
01:30:39.600 --> 01:30:41.720
<v Speaker 1>know I'm not cheating. I can take you on a

1634
01:30:41.840 --> 01:30:45.199
<v Speaker 1>walk around my apartment and the local areas, and I

1635
01:30:45.239 --> 01:30:47.399
<v Speaker 1>could point to signs off in the distance and tell

1636
01:30:47.399 --> 01:30:49.760
<v Speaker 1>you exactly what they say, not because I'm reading them,

1637
01:30:49.960 --> 01:30:52.279
<v Speaker 1>because I know what they say, because I've passed them before.

1638
01:30:53.439 --> 01:30:53.640
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

1639
01:30:53.840 --> 01:30:57.199
<v Speaker 5>So but okay, if I was in your apartment and

1640
01:30:57.279 --> 01:30:59.920
<v Speaker 5>then I moved something and you still knew where, well,

1641
01:31:00.359 --> 01:31:01.720
<v Speaker 5>is that not miraculous.

1642
01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:06.039
<v Speaker 1>No, that's just logical. It's you know, I just because

1643
01:31:06.039 --> 01:31:08.199
<v Speaker 1>I can't see doesn't mean I can't reason. And if

1644
01:31:08.239 --> 01:31:11.119
<v Speaker 1>someone's if I know that something was there and someone's

1645
01:31:11.199 --> 01:31:13.319
<v Speaker 1>moved it, I have a housemate and he does that,

1646
01:31:14.960 --> 01:31:19.800
<v Speaker 1>love Cole. I'm not going to attribute my ability to

1647
01:31:19.920 --> 01:31:21.600
<v Speaker 1>track it down as a miracle. I'm just going to

1648
01:31:21.640 --> 01:31:23.640
<v Speaker 1>be like, well, I was either tenacious or I reasoned

1649
01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:25.920
<v Speaker 1>that here is a more sensible place to put it,

1650
01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:29.279
<v Speaker 1>or the person that I'm with is either absent mindedly

1651
01:31:29.319 --> 01:31:32.039
<v Speaker 1>putting it somewhere and there for where would they put it? Absolutely,

1652
01:31:32.199 --> 01:31:34.680
<v Speaker 1>or it's trying to fuck with me where would they

1653
01:31:34.800 --> 01:31:37.079
<v Speaker 1>put it? So, No, it's not a miracle. It's just

1654
01:31:37.239 --> 01:31:39.680
<v Speaker 1>it's just lateral thinking. Anyway, I've said my piece.

1655
01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:42.119
<v Speaker 5>But I mean the other thing I was going to

1656
01:31:42.199 --> 01:31:45.000
<v Speaker 5>say too, is that you know that kind of goes

1657
01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:48.199
<v Speaker 5>into the concept of fates because a lot of presents

1658
01:31:49.039 --> 01:31:51.640
<v Speaker 5>the way of thinking is well, I can't prove it,

1659
01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:54.279
<v Speaker 5>but it's better than the book to believe than not believe,

1660
01:31:54.319 --> 01:31:56.680
<v Speaker 5>and that goes into arkansaser.

1661
01:31:57.079 --> 01:32:01.039
<v Speaker 2>Benji, is that a good way to evaluate true faith?

1662
01:32:01.239 --> 01:32:04.239
<v Speaker 2>Is faith good enough for you? Like is it good

1663
01:32:04.319 --> 01:32:07.319
<v Speaker 2>enough for you to just insert and answer just to

1664
01:32:07.439 --> 01:32:10.039
<v Speaker 2>have one even if you have no idea if it's

1665
01:32:10.039 --> 01:32:10.399
<v Speaker 2>true or not.

1666
01:32:10.720 --> 01:32:15.199
<v Speaker 5>Well, faith's in the calonical sense, you know, having faiths

1667
01:32:15.279 --> 01:32:17.760
<v Speaker 5>in something is different from faiths in the Bible. But

1668
01:32:17.840 --> 01:32:19.840
<v Speaker 5>I would say, as far as fate's in the Bible,

1669
01:32:20.720 --> 01:32:24.880
<v Speaker 5>Bible's votion of faith, if I have basically evidence for

1670
01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:28.560
<v Speaker 5>stuff that's unseen, which again that makes really no sense anyway.

1671
01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:32.399
<v Speaker 5>But if I had that kind of fate and I

1672
01:32:32.520 --> 01:32:37.239
<v Speaker 5>attributed it to a God or Jesus or whatever, I

1673
01:32:37.479 --> 01:32:42.039
<v Speaker 5>think that depending on the circumstances, it could lead me

1674
01:32:42.159 --> 01:32:45.039
<v Speaker 5>to something that is true and not true. I would

1675
01:32:45.079 --> 01:32:45.439
<v Speaker 5>say that.

1676
01:32:46.199 --> 01:32:46.359
<v Speaker 6>Now.

1677
01:32:46.800 --> 01:32:49.840
<v Speaker 5>The reason why people try to claim that it is

1678
01:32:49.960 --> 01:32:53.840
<v Speaker 5>a reliable way to truth is because it still gets

1679
01:32:53.920 --> 01:32:56.680
<v Speaker 5>some of the truth sometimes, you know, fifty to fifty,

1680
01:32:56.720 --> 01:32:58.960
<v Speaker 5>it's a flip of a coin. If it didn't get

1681
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:01.439
<v Speaker 5>them the truth at all, they couldn't claim that because

1682
01:33:01.479 --> 01:33:03.399
<v Speaker 5>it doesn't get them the truth at all, But because

1683
01:33:03.439 --> 01:33:05.960
<v Speaker 5>it gets them the truth sometimes and they say, well, yeah,

1684
01:33:06.000 --> 01:33:09.439
<v Speaker 5>it's still reliable half the time. But in y'all's case,

1685
01:33:09.600 --> 01:33:13.600
<v Speaker 5>your argument is is it reliable completely one hundred percent

1686
01:33:13.720 --> 01:33:16.399
<v Speaker 5>of the time? And in that case no, But the

1687
01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:19.279
<v Speaker 5>way that Tristan's look at it, you know, even half

1688
01:33:19.359 --> 01:33:22.239
<v Speaker 5>and half fifty fifty is good enough for them because

1689
01:33:22.279 --> 01:33:25.000
<v Speaker 5>it still gets under the trars half the time, even

1690
01:33:25.039 --> 01:33:27.279
<v Speaker 5>though sometimes it can get them to something that ain't

1691
01:33:27.319 --> 01:33:29.560
<v Speaker 5>crue and other times it can get in to something

1692
01:33:29.600 --> 01:33:31.960
<v Speaker 5>that is crue. And when it gets into something that

1693
01:33:32.199 --> 01:33:34.239
<v Speaker 5>is true, they say God did it. If it gets

1694
01:33:34.279 --> 01:33:36.119
<v Speaker 5>some of something that ain't crue, they blame the devil.

1695
01:33:36.319 --> 01:33:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Again, water is wet, counting heats, that kind of thing.

1696
01:33:40.079 --> 01:33:41.840
<v Speaker 1>And yes, that is a conversation we have with a

1697
01:33:41.880 --> 01:33:45.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of believers about like how can you demonstrate that

1698
01:33:45.079 --> 01:33:47.960
<v Speaker 1>your faith is any better than just chance? And it

1699
01:33:48.039 --> 01:33:50.600
<v Speaker 1>has actually been demonstrated that, you know, especially in things

1700
01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:54.880
<v Speaker 1>are intercessory prayer, it's not. Again, these are pretty in

1701
01:33:55.039 --> 01:33:55.680
<v Speaker 1>the colo.

1702
01:33:55.920 --> 01:33:59.880
<v Speaker 5>Sense is connected too, SAPs like if you have faiths

1703
01:34:00.159 --> 01:34:00.960
<v Speaker 5>something you take a.

1704
01:34:01.039 --> 01:34:04.600
<v Speaker 1>Chance on some well I would when someone uses faith

1705
01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:08.279
<v Speaker 1>as in I have faith that I'll wake up tomorrow morning,

1706
01:34:08.479 --> 01:34:10.840
<v Speaker 1>or rather the sun will rise that's trust.

1707
01:34:11.239 --> 01:34:13.279
<v Speaker 3>That's it's confidence.

1708
01:34:13.439 --> 01:34:17.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like we were talking about with probability, I can

1709
01:34:17.199 --> 01:34:24.079
<v Speaker 2>demonstrate statistical significance. That'll tell me how how reliable something is,

1710
01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:27.520
<v Speaker 2>how likely that something is to be true, And that

1711
01:34:27.720 --> 01:34:31.880
<v Speaker 2>is demonstrable. It can be used to predict things that

1712
01:34:31.960 --> 01:34:35.079
<v Speaker 2>will happen in the future, not because of divine anything,

1713
01:34:35.199 --> 01:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>but just because we have enough data that we can

1714
01:34:38.319 --> 01:34:42.760
<v Speaker 2>calculate and rely on. Is this eighty percent likely to happen?

1715
01:34:42.840 --> 01:34:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Is this ninety percent likely to happen? Is this ten

1716
01:34:44.720 --> 01:34:47.560
<v Speaker 2>percent likely to happen. That's not faith, that's math.

1717
01:34:47.840 --> 01:34:51.520
<v Speaker 5>Okay, well, let's see the faith that they say is

1718
01:34:51.760 --> 01:34:55.560
<v Speaker 5>they use it in place of trust, So that's or confidence.

1719
01:34:55.760 --> 01:34:59.119
<v Speaker 2>But that's but that's not so using faith in place

1720
01:34:59.159 --> 01:35:02.760
<v Speaker 2>of trust is just to us miscommunicating because if we're

1721
01:35:02.880 --> 01:35:06.439
<v Speaker 2>having a completely different discussion, and if someone says it

1722
01:35:06.560 --> 01:35:10.720
<v Speaker 2>thinks that I'm meaning faith when I'm saying statistical reliability

1723
01:35:10.840 --> 01:35:13.239
<v Speaker 2>or if I'm saying trust, or if I'm saying confidence.

1724
01:35:13.439 --> 01:35:16.119
<v Speaker 2>That's why I tend to use the word confidence, because

1725
01:35:16.159 --> 01:35:18.840
<v Speaker 2>it gives you more of a spectrum of options that

1726
01:35:18.920 --> 01:35:22.880
<v Speaker 2>you can give. If someone else is here is thinking

1727
01:35:22.960 --> 01:35:25.319
<v Speaker 2>that I mean faith, when I say confidence, then we

1728
01:35:25.399 --> 01:35:28.399
<v Speaker 2>need to revisit the conversation and I need to say, hey, no,

1729
01:35:28.479 --> 01:35:30.920
<v Speaker 2>this is what I mean by confidence, and then they

1730
01:35:31.000 --> 01:35:33.680
<v Speaker 2>need to say what they mean by faith, and then

1731
01:35:34.079 --> 01:35:36.239
<v Speaker 2>we will understand that we're not on the same page

1732
01:35:36.640 --> 01:35:38.520
<v Speaker 2>with how we are making our decisions.

1733
01:35:38.600 --> 01:35:43.600
<v Speaker 5>Sometimes it is christens when they say face. Sometimes they

1734
01:35:43.760 --> 01:35:46.560
<v Speaker 5>just say it's in the calonical sense. Yes, sometimes when

1735
01:35:46.600 --> 01:35:49.079
<v Speaker 5>they say it's in the biblical sense.

1736
01:35:49.439 --> 01:35:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, but the problem is they're using one word

1737
01:35:53.079 --> 01:35:55.000
<v Speaker 2>to do all their heavy lifting, and then they don't

1738
01:35:55.159 --> 01:35:57.600
<v Speaker 2>and then they don't have to clearly define it because

1739
01:35:57.640 --> 01:35:59.960
<v Speaker 2>they just assume the other person knows what they're talking

1740
01:36:00.000 --> 01:36:03.239
<v Speaker 2>talking about, and it just becomes a very messy conversation.

1741
01:36:03.760 --> 01:36:08.520
<v Speaker 2>So I think, I think maybe we're kind of reaching

1742
01:36:08.720 --> 01:36:12.079
<v Speaker 2>the end of a productive discussion. I think call back

1743
01:36:12.199 --> 01:36:15.119
<v Speaker 2>next week. We'll have multiple hosts next week, and you

1744
01:36:15.199 --> 01:36:18.279
<v Speaker 2>can try this with a few different people and see

1745
01:36:18.279 --> 01:36:22.439
<v Speaker 2>how it goes. But I think, maybe go listen back

1746
01:36:22.479 --> 01:36:25.319
<v Speaker 2>to this call, think about kind of any other ways

1747
01:36:25.319 --> 01:36:27.560
<v Speaker 2>that we can approach this next time, and I hope

1748
01:36:27.560 --> 01:36:29.399
<v Speaker 2>you have a great rest of your day.

1749
01:36:30.039 --> 01:36:30.960
<v Speaker 3>And I just dropped him.

1750
01:36:31.199 --> 01:36:35.279
<v Speaker 1>Okay, the closest thing I ever get to the biblical

1751
01:36:35.880 --> 01:36:39.800
<v Speaker 1>concept of faith is hope. But that's a that's a knowing,

1752
01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:42.359
<v Speaker 1>Like I'm you know, I know that this thing that

1753
01:36:42.479 --> 01:36:45.039
<v Speaker 1>I hope is going to happen is not likely. It's

1754
01:36:45.119 --> 01:36:47.399
<v Speaker 1>not like I think it's definitely going to happen because

1755
01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:49.479
<v Speaker 1>I believe in it so much. But that's about as

1756
01:36:49.479 --> 01:36:51.760
<v Speaker 1>close as I get to that Hebrews eleven nonsense.

1757
01:36:52.119 --> 01:36:52.479
<v Speaker 5>Anyway.

1758
01:36:52.680 --> 01:36:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, thank you everybody for joining us this week

1759
01:36:56.640 --> 01:36:59.399
<v Speaker 2>on Talk he then and I hope to see a

1760
01:36:59.479 --> 01:37:01.760
<v Speaker 2>bunch of you you this upcoming weekend at the back

1761
01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Cruise and at the live shows at the library. But

1762
01:37:05.720 --> 01:37:08.119
<v Speaker 2>just a reminder, the prompt for this week is what

1763
01:37:08.399 --> 01:37:11.520
<v Speaker 2>gap can God always fit into? Reply in the comments

1764
01:37:11.760 --> 01:37:13.640
<v Speaker 2>and tune in at the beginning of next week's show

1765
01:37:13.920 --> 01:37:16.960
<v Speaker 2>to hear those top three answers. And we want to

1766
01:37:17.000 --> 01:37:20.119
<v Speaker 2>thank Eli for helping out today. Thank you so much

1767
01:37:20.159 --> 01:37:23.800
<v Speaker 2>for being here. And was there anything in particular you

1768
01:37:23.880 --> 01:37:25.439
<v Speaker 2>wanted to address about this show.

1769
01:37:26.399 --> 01:37:28.479
<v Speaker 4>I think you guys did greet the only I wanted

1770
01:37:29.399 --> 01:37:32.319
<v Speaker 4>Steven to know that in the article, like in one

1771
01:37:32.359 --> 01:37:34.640
<v Speaker 4>of the first couple of paragraphs there, it does it

1772
01:37:35.000 --> 01:37:37.560
<v Speaker 4>that where it introduces the idea that it's you know,

1773
01:37:37.880 --> 01:37:41.039
<v Speaker 4>reflective material. It just kind of pops up out of nowhere.

1774
01:37:41.119 --> 01:37:44.000
<v Speaker 4>They're like, one possibility is this if it's real, So

1775
01:37:44.159 --> 01:37:46.319
<v Speaker 4>that's the sort of evidence that we're dealing with in that,

1776
01:37:46.399 --> 01:37:48.159
<v Speaker 4>But otherwise I think, I mean, I couldn't add anything

1777
01:37:48.199 --> 01:37:50.000
<v Speaker 4>to anything you guys said. You guys did awesome, as.

1778
01:37:49.880 --> 01:37:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Always awesome, and it is time for some lover rings

1779
01:37:54.039 --> 01:37:56.159
<v Speaker 2>if we can send those out. Oh and we got

1780
01:37:56.319 --> 01:38:00.560
<v Speaker 2>a super chat from Miranda Renzberger. Great show today. You

1781
01:38:00.680 --> 01:38:03.720
<v Speaker 2>have managed to have productive conversations with one difficult caller

1782
01:38:03.760 --> 01:38:05.159
<v Speaker 2>and made a valiant effort with another.

1783
01:38:05.279 --> 01:38:06.239
<v Speaker 3>Oh, I can't see the rest of it.

1784
01:38:06.520 --> 01:38:09.279
<v Speaker 2>You guys are awesome. Thank you so much, Miranda. Miranda

1785
01:38:09.680 --> 01:38:13.479
<v Speaker 2>is one of the MVPs of this show, always showing

1786
01:38:13.600 --> 01:38:14.720
<v Speaker 2>up those super chats.

1787
01:38:14.920 --> 01:38:18.399
<v Speaker 1>She is to the ACA as the Pope was to

1788
01:38:18.479 --> 01:38:20.479
<v Speaker 1>the Renaissance, like just the payment.

1789
01:38:22.159 --> 01:38:23.479
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely amazing.

1790
01:38:23.640 --> 01:38:28.239
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Miranda, And as always, it's great

1791
01:38:28.319 --> 01:38:32.600
<v Speaker 2>to see the community coming together having these more difficult discussions.

1792
01:38:33.640 --> 01:38:36.640
<v Speaker 2>And if you don't believe this is your place, these

1793
01:38:36.680 --> 01:38:39.039
<v Speaker 2>are your people. We hope to see you.

1794
01:38:39.119 --> 01:38:40.159
<v Speaker 3>This upcoming weekend.

1795
01:38:40.319 --> 01:38:42.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm so excited to meet some of you in person

1796
01:38:43.560 --> 01:38:46.439
<v Speaker 2>and hang out for a bit and watch the shows together.

1797
01:38:47.319 --> 01:38:50.880
<v Speaker 2>We appreciate all of your time staying with us every week,

1798
01:38:51.239 --> 01:38:53.680
<v Speaker 2>and if you do believe, we don't hate you.

1799
01:38:54.039 --> 01:38:55.079
<v Speaker 1>We're just not convinced.

1800
01:39:12.680 --> 01:39:13.399
<v Speaker 7>We want the truth.

1801
01:39:13.760 --> 01:39:16.720
<v Speaker 4>So watch Truth Wanted live Fridays at seven pm Central

1802
01:39:17.079 --> 01:39:20.039
<v Speaker 4>Call five one two nine nine one nine two four

1803
01:39:20.119 --> 01:39:23.439
<v Speaker 4>two or visit tiny dot cc forward slash call tw