WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:08.720 Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of Ruby Roaks. I'm 2 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:12.560 David Kimura, and today on our panel we have John Epperson, Hello, 3 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:17.519 and Luke Sutter's Hi. And today we are talking with 4 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:20.399 a special guest, Yvonne named Chenko. 5 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:22.280 Hi. Guys, thanks poin inviting. 6 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:24.960 Yeah, so do you mind telling us a bit about 7 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:27.160 who you are, some of the things you're working for, 8 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:28.839 and all that good stuff. 9 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:34.159 Of course, these days, I'm freelancer, also consulting from time 10 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.799 to time. But I started to use Ruby and reels 11 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:42.679 in two thousand and six, and since then I was 12 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:45.560 doing a lot of different stuff. I was an owner, 13 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:51.600 a co founder of two agencies, organizing conference, speaking a lot, 14 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:53.439 and all the different stuff. 15 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:56.399 Awesome. So what have you been up to lately? 16 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.960 Just some freelance and some consulting. Also is amount of teaching, 17 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:01.520 of course. 18 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:04.560 And we had you come on to talk about one 19 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:07.040 of the talks that you gave a Ruby comp called 20 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:12.799 less Abstract Surprising Effects of expressing rules and or of 21 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:14.959 object oriented programming. 22 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:20.640 Yeah, in a visual way, uh, in pictures in pictures, right? 23 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:21.760 Would you mind. 24 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:24.200 Giving us a highlight overview of that talk? 25 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:25.159 Sure? 26 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:30.040 The whole thing started as a conversation. I guess a 27 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.280 year ago. It's another conference in Saint Petersburg and me 28 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:38.519 and some other people who are also involved in teaching rubists, 29 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:42.599 we were we had a discussion that sometimes it's very 30 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:47.879 hard to explain some abstract concepts to the newcomers. And 31 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.040 there was one rhetorical question which was said. It sounded like, 32 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:56.000 wouldn't be great if we could illustrate let's say, dependency 33 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:59.799 injection with just one picture and so that everyone can 34 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.920 standard and understand it in. 35 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:03.680 The correct way. 36 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:09.199 So yeah, that was just a rhetorical question, as I said. 37 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:14.360 But later when I was teaching another tacke of students 38 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.400 and I was drawing picture to them, and those pictures 39 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:24.360 were like pictures of little dudes, and those pictures were 40 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.080 meant to be classes. So I was playing in OP 41 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:33.960 to them, and then I recalled this question, and I thought, 42 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:37.599 what could be like the next step to destrade more 43 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:40.360 stuff of the OP in a visual way. And I 44 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:44.319 started drawing like arms to those dudes, and I thought, 45 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:49.360 all right, let's those arms express methods in our code. 46 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:52.800 And then and more and more and more, and. 47 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:59.400 I managed to develop some kind of visual language to 48 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:02.520 express ask what's going on in your code. 49 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:05.599 So yeah, something like this. 50 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.479 I mean, your pictures are awesome. Did you come to 51 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:12.680 a conclusion, did you measure that this works? 52 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:16.400 So in my talks, I was just excited that it 53 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:20.360 all makes sense despite of the fact that it's still 54 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.039 all weird, and I was excited about it and wanted 55 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.240 to present this basically to show that. But I think 56 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:33.159 it was helpful for me in several ways. First of all, 57 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:36.840 I was able to explain some concepts of few to 58 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:42.840 my students. Secondly, I was using it in my freelancing 59 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.319 projects as well, so I found it useful when you 60 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:52.280 have some complex case when you don't know how to 61 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:56.960 model it correctly, or you just have some complicated set 62 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:01.199 of classes when you're solving some specific pro What I 63 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:04.599 did is that I, let's say I had five or 64 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:07.599 six classes and I didn't like the design, so I 65 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:11.360 just decided to draw all of them in using this 66 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:15.439 visual language, and from that I started gaining like insights 67 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:21.199 that like this, uh, this method is duplicated in several places, 68 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:22.759 and and. 69 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:23.879 So on and so on and so on. 70 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:28.040 So yeah, it was useful in in my practice as well. 71 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:32.000 But I'm not sure how to how to share it 72 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:37.120 with more people and how to make more useful. But yeah, 73 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:39.560 I had some attempts in that as well. 74 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.040 I thought it was a really interesting idea because a 75 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:45.720 lot of people can do it, you know, just kind 76 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:50.120 of passing the dependencies as arguments. But I don't really 77 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.720 have an understanding of it, and I think getting that 78 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:56.839 visual model when your head really goes a long way. 79 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:00.319 Did you did you find the people reacted well to it? 80 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:01.040 Yeah? 81 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:05.120 People usually like it a lot because it's a very 82 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.639 surprising way of thinking about the. 83 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:08.240 Code for them. 84 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:13.879 So yeah, people are really excited, but I don't think 85 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.240 many of them find it very practical so far. 86 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:21.480 I assume as you're during the rails mountain, the mountain 87 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:25.879 of learning rails, Yeah, this is a yeah, I should 88 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:30.199 chat about it. Yeah, this is a really interesting thing. 89 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.199 What is at the top? What is at the top 90 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:34.519 of the rails mountain? 91 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.360 So I would say it's not a rails mountain, it's 92 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:42.879 a cycle of not a cycle, but well, let's say 93 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:48.040 life cycle of every rails developer. So it's also another 94 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:53.120 model I developed for another talk in Ukraine, and I 95 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.720 simply spotted that many of Ruby developers go through the 96 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.839 same steps and I was on many of them as well. 97 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:05.399 So the first step when you love rails, when you 98 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:09.879 believe in Rail's way and you just fell in love. 99 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.600 Then later on you started getting some problems and you 100 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:19.000 fix them with some magic, and after like several attempts 101 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:22.800 to fix stuff with magic, you might get disappointed in 102 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:25.920 rails way. And then you switch to another step where 103 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:32.600 you start learning about all the alternative approaches like solid dryer, 104 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.839 be I don't know, trail blazer service objects and so 105 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:42.920 on of course patterns. Then you can, of course find 106 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:48.639 your spot where you feel comfortable because like your projects 107 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:53.160 of a specific size, or like you just found your 108 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:58.839 way of managing complexity in web publications. But many people 109 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.160 they decided that all right, something is wrong with the Ruby, 110 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:08.240 something might be wrong with the way we develop applications, 111 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:12.639 and they started to leave and they decided they should 112 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:18.480 try other languages, other approaches. And this is step three 113 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:20.959 and step four, like the final the top of the 114 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:24.920 mountain is when you managed to learn from all those 115 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:27.800 approaches in different ecosystems and. 116 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.680 You well on the top level. 117 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.879 It actually doesn't matter for you what technology you use, 118 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:36.879 but you can return to Ruby, and you can return 119 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:40.360 to Rails with all this knowledge, and you've broken the metrics, 120 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:43.240 so now you know how to do stuff. 121 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:45.360 So that's the final step. 122 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.879 Yeah, I think for me getting up to that matrix's 123 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:55.240 broken place, it originally came from me learning Rails before 124 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.079 I learned Ruby. That was probably one of the biggest 125 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.639 mistakes that I made. I just dove right into Rails 126 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:06.800 without understanding how Ruby classes worked, how to create true, 127 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:11.720 plain old Ruby objects, and so I would have super 128 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:16.439 fat controllers with super fat models. Things were not maintainable, 129 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.439 they were not manageable. I had zero unit tests on 130 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:25.680 my old applications, and I thought that man rails isn't 131 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:29.920 really all that intuitive, it's not all that great. So 132 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.919 it really was, hey, maybe I'm just a bad programmer, 133 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:37.279 which is kind of down in your Rails disciple way. 134 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.000 So for me, it was getting up to that peak 135 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.600 of the mountain by actually learning Ruby, picking up on 136 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:51.039 some Ruby techniques like minimalization, or just creating Ruby objects 137 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:55.399 instead of just relying what just rails provides. So becoming 138 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:59.039 a better Ruby developer made me understand a lot more 139 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:00.799 and become a better Else developer. 140 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:01.440 Essentially. 141 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:07.440 Do you think that people hit that stage faster with 142 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.639 Ruby and rails because it's so good at accelerating you 143 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:14.320 through the early stuff. 144 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:17.919 For me, I would say no, I was a pretty 145 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:22.759 horrible developer for a long time, mostly because I was 146 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.639 just trying to do things by myself. I wasn't including 147 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.679 other people in my work, and that inherently limited me 148 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:31.840 on what I was able to do. 149 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:35.519 So Von, I feel like I'm seeing a pattern here 150 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:38.600 that you are taking these abstract concepts and putting them 151 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.840 into pictures and for the most part, like you seem 152 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:44.399 to be getting good reception of it. Like I myself 153 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.159 am connecting with this kind of stuff. I feel like 154 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.519 it's kind of analogous to you know that, maybe that 155 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:51.960 one dude that you know that like maybe it makes 156 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.799 good analogies all the time kind of thing. I feel 157 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:57.480 like it's kind of like that, like that kind of 158 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.519 a person tends to be able to Maybe it's a 159 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.080 skill of a teacher. I don't know exactly where I'm 160 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:05.240 going with this, but I feel like there's something here, 161 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:06.960 which is I think what you're coming to tell us 162 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:10.039 they like, Hey, maybe I don't have a system, I 163 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.279 haven't measured it yet, but but here's the beginnings of 164 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:15.440 one is that where you feel like you are in 165 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:17.200 the process or do you feel like you're further along? 166 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:18.759 So, yeah, I do. 167 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:23.399 I do a lot of teaching, and like a lot 168 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:27.600 of my relatives at teachers, so I have some something 169 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:34.080 something like this, and yeah, these things I'm talking about 170 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:37.159 here and there, they are kind of a part of 171 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:38.600 a bigger system that I have. 172 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:39.279 In my mind. 173 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:45.360 And also I've tried to write a book. It should 174 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:49.960 called Painless Rails. But yeah, it's already two years after 175 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:53.080 I started writing it and right now it's in postponed state. 176 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:59.000 But like the bigger the big goal for me is 177 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:07.360 to make development using rails joyful again. Because I'm a freelancer, 178 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:12.200 I usually I frequently switched from project to project, and 179 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:17.360 I see that a lot of people they inventing their 180 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:21.000 own bicycles. I mean, remember those times when we had 181 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:25.399 like single rails, way, when we were all on the 182 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:31.039 step one of this mountain. We all were enjoying the process. 183 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:36.320 And then we started like inventing more approaches because like 184 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:40.120 we all grew, our projects become bigger and more complex. 185 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:45.600 We needed some other methods to manage complexity. But we 186 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:50.039 ended up having like dozens of different approaches and there's 187 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.000 no single unified way of doing that. Now, I think 188 00:11:54.200 --> 00:12:00.519 ideally we should have one unified approach again would feed 189 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:05.159 to ninety percent of all projects. Of course, like the 190 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:09.600 domain models and a lot of specifics is different. But 191 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:14.080 I'm still pretty sure that for ninety percent of ninety 192 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:17.120 percent of a project, for ninety percent of functionality of 193 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:22.120 ninety percent of all rails projects or web projects on Ruby, 194 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.240 we can develop a single unified way. Like imagine if 195 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:31.080 we could measure mathematically like a different a progress like 196 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:36.480 with Trailblaser, we have a complex situatio of I don't 197 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:41.480 know five, and some another metric of I don't know ten, 198 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:45.600 and for another like wul rails approach, we. 199 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:47.799 Have like those numbers of. 200 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:52.240 Seven and six, and we could just compare those approaches 201 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:57.320 and let's say and this this approach is optimal. And 202 00:12:57.399 --> 00:13:03.320 while it sounds pretty like fantastic, I would say I 203 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.120 still think it's doable. 204 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.000 Man, I can explain it, but it's gonna take some time. 205 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:12.519 So from my perspective, I think that that right there, 206 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:16.320 that motivation to sort of like get the I don't 207 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:18.879 know that there's I look at this as sort of 208 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.159 being a platonic thing that there's there's a perfect thing 209 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.360 out there and we're all trying to go get it, right, 210 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:26.519 We're all trying to seek it. And I feel like 211 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.200 that is sort of like the motivation that drives like 212 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:31.679 half of the things that you see out in the world. 213 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:34.399 You know, somebody's upset about rails, you know. Now we 214 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:38.840 have what Sinatra Anami. I mean, they're even on your mountain, right, 215 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:43.159 like they're so popular. Trailblazer is not exactly competitor rails 216 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:47.120 so much, but it's it's competing against like pieces of it. 217 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:47.360 Right. 218 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.200 But like we have these things where somebody's like I'm 219 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.279 going to try and seek that one thing, right or 220 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:54.639 you know, in JavaScript world, we have this like we 221 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.080 have React, now we have you. Somebody's gonna come up 222 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:02.440 with another, you know framework. I mean Angular is kind 223 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.000 of like sort of underway, and Ember is basically kind 224 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:05.759 of gone. 225 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:07.960 You know, we're not even talking about. 226 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:11.720 The generation before that, right, Like that are just gone now, 227 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:14.480 Like people are always like trying to recreate this bicycle 228 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:16.919 to achieve that one place. I don't know that we 229 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.000 can stop that cycle. 230 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.720 I think there's always going to be more churn in 231 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:24.919 the front end than the back end. 232 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.399 That wasn't my conclusion, but you're welcome to make that conclusion. 233 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:33.279 So let me explain what I mean sure, and why 234 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:39.039 I think it's achievable, well at least theoretically. So, first 235 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:43.320 of all, this approach of expressing code in. 236 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.000 Pictures of little dudes. 237 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:51.200 So what ways to analyze our code we have right now? 238 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.360 So we have code coverage, for example, we have some 239 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:57.879 complexity metrics with flog or some other stuff with. 240 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:01.039 Rugby Critick, but those are numbers. 241 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.799 And let's say you have a class of five hundred 242 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:08.279 lines of code, and alright, you have a metric that 243 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:13.600 your class has complexity of something like I don't know, fifteen, 244 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:17.799 and that doesn't give you like a lot of information 245 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:18.720 you can work with. 246 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.200 And most of. 247 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:26.639 The tools give us very low level hints on code quality. 248 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.600 And we tend to think that rubocop hints are. 249 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.360 About code quality, but I think those are just about 250 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.000 code style mostly, and they can't show you that something 251 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:42.399 is wrong, but they can't give you a high level hints. 252 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:47.039 And now let's say we take the same. 253 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:49.759 Class of five hundred lines and when we try to 254 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:52.399 express it with the picture of little dudes, we can 255 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.879 have like here's old guy and this guy. 256 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:57.360 So since all. 257 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:02.039 The arms are methods, let's say we have seven methods. 258 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.080 So our guy has seven arms, and we see like this, 259 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.720 and yeah, in my talk, I was showing like the 260 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.240 if the method is to loan, then the army is 261 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.000 kind of lone and wavy. And from that picture you 262 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:20.320 already see that it's not very good to have such 263 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:20.720 an army. 264 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:22.360 It's not very convenient. 265 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:28.000 And for another method you have you have seven arguments there, 266 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.799 and seven arguments are seven fingers, and the army with 267 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.840 seven fingers is not convenient also, and so on and 268 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.120 so on and so on like and now you have 269 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:43.120 this class and the properties of the code expressing in 270 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:48.799 one little compact picture, and your brain is actually, well, 271 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:55.320 it works with visual objects much better when with the text, 272 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.639 and it takes you less time to understand. 273 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:00.919 Property of this picture. 274 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:05.839 And actually, there is a thing called channal faces, and 275 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:06.519 it's used. 276 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:08.319 You can google for it. 277 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:14.000 And this is a technique when people used faces with 278 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:18.039 different expressions to show multi dimensional data. For example, you 279 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.119 have a table with a lot of columns and you 280 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:21.599 have to. 281 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:25.039 Like, I don't know, it's. 282 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:29.920 Something like it's showing some death rates or some information 283 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:34.519 about health in different states. And for example, death rate 284 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.599 is expressed with the size of eyes and like and 285 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.319 I don't know, something else is expressed with the size 286 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.640 of mouth and so on and so on. So and 287 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:51.160 this uses parts of our brain which recognize faces. And 288 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:54.079 with this you can get very efficient. And this I 289 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:58.559 found very close, this channal faces thing. And yeah, and 290 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:03.200 what I found that if you use this in dynamics. 291 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.119 So let's say we we have this picture of a 292 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.799 five one hundred lines class and then we get a 293 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:14.319 pull request which changes this class and maybe some others. 294 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:19.200 Then we can have another picture. Then this arm is gone, 295 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:25.559 this arm got two new fingers, and this arm. 296 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.400 Become longer, and so on and so on. 297 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:33.720 So now you can, like very compactly you can see 298 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:40.960 what differences, what high high level differences were added to 299 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:41.519 your system. 300 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:46.680 So this is so that would be kind of part 301 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:50.559 of some kind of continuous integration system. 302 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:55.599 Yes, correct, Actually, so two links I've sent to you, 303 00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:01.319 the one which called dudes up. This is a prototype 304 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:04.359 which is developed by my student. 305 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:05.880 Which already does that. 306 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:10.480 Actually, so you can plug it to your pository and 307 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:14.119 it will start posting you pictures of those little dudes. 308 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:15.839 Whenever you create full request? 309 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.559 Does it work on Ruby? It looks like as a 310 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:19.839 gem f on a cat file. 311 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.640 Yeah, it should work. I Unfortunately I didn't have the 312 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.000 chance to play with it a lot. And as I said, 313 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.440 it's a prototype, but it should work. 314 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:33.599 Okay, awesome, let's see here. I'm not sure it looks 315 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.519 like an app. All right, well we'll link it in 316 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:37.720 the stuff or whatever you play with. 317 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:42.440 Oh yeah, so the gem is the last one called 318 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:47.400 Judity and Dude's tap is. Yeah, it's an app. Basically 319 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:52.440 it should be deployed first to Yeah, but I think 320 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.920 I should just do that so that you could be 321 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:57.200 able to plug it to your report. 322 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.119 Should they work together or something? 323 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:03.680 Is a gem that you can pluck to your repository. 324 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.440 And I believe it's a common line utility and you 325 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:15.039 can say, well, please express these classes as those pictures 326 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.000 of little nets and you will get that. 327 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:18.559 Gotcha? 328 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:25.720 Do gl is the Yeah, it's a librariation of it. Yeah, 329 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.279 it's the core of the whole thing which actually draws 330 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:35.160 all those Uh. This can potentially change a way of 331 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:41.359 thinking about code complexity, and of course it requires a 332 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:45.200 lot of more research, and I don't know marketing, sure, 333 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.160 but yeah, I like it. 334 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.119 So it sounds like what you're arguing here, Please correct 335 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:53.160 me if I'm wrong. Sounds like what you're kind of 336 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:59.759 making an argument for is that if you express your 337 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:04.640 code quality in this visual kind of language, you basically 338 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:09.319 can do I think two things. One you're cutting down 339 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:14.559 on noise, and two you're increasing bandwidth because we're using 340 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:16.359 more parts of our brain to help kind of handle 341 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:19.200 this or whatever, So you're communicating with more bandwidth. 342 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.359 Correct, Yes, I mean the amount of information you can 343 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:28.039 express in one place is also important. Like remember that 344 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:32.079 our brain can handle only like seven five to seven 345 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.160 things in one bite like here. 346 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.400 Because of the compactness, you. 347 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:40.200 Can place like a decent amount of colde and analyze 348 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:42.359 it in one place on one picture. 349 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.240 Yeah, And I think that where I like this is 350 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:50.319 the at a glance visual of where things are at. 351 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.640 So if I guess one of these little people or 352 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:58.400 dudes as looks like they're called, if one of them 353 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:03.240 has ten different norms, that would essentially be like ten 354 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:09.079 different public methods that that class has, which in a 355 00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:12.759 lot of cases, if you're creating a poro, would not 356 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:16.599 be ideal. So right off the bat, you could say, wow, 357 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:20.640 this class has some serious complexity because you have ten 358 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:24.359 different entry points to be able to interact with this class. 359 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:27.319 Maybe we should simplify it so it only has one 360 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:31.160 arm at most two and then create other smaller classes 361 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.440 to handle whatever the other methods public methods were that 362 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:37.680 this class was originally housing. 363 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.319 Correct. Yes, that's a good example. 364 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.640 I did similar thing in my talk in a trubconf 365 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:49.119 I just took another talk of Sandy Mats where she 366 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:51.480 was doing exactly that. 367 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:56.000 She took one huge class and step by step. 368 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:59.880 She splitted it into something like fifteen smaller classes, and 369 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.279 I basically illustrated the whole thing. 370 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.799 So and yeah, you can see it in the talk itself. 371 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:11.680 I mean kudos to Sandy Metz for like kind of 372 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:16.359 basically doing this for so long and giving good talks 373 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:20.400 right on it. But yeah, I definitely am am coming 374 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.920 around to the thing here that having a visual would 375 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.000 make communicating about that stuff a lot faster, because I 376 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.240 think one of the things that I've definitely encountered is 377 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:33.319 that while I've spent a lot of time looking at 378 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.160 talks like Katrina Owen is also really good at this right, 379 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:41.359 But like watching talks and reading about stuff, and I 380 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.240 feel like I'm pretty good at identifying these things, you know, 381 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.319 and I'll comment on them and prs and things like this. 382 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.680 I feel like it's a very hard thing, even for programmers, 383 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:53.599 who you know, we were like, oh, programmers are smarter 384 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.000 than the average bear, and therefore they should be able 385 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.559 to get this stuff. But I think it's a hard 386 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.559 concept for everyone. Maybe visual language would help overcome some 387 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:04.559 of those barriers. 388 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.880 I know for me it definitely would. And just take 389 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.319 the example this kind of like off topic but related, 390 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.640 but like a con bond board, a combine board usually 391 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.920 has three columns to do, doing and done. And that's 392 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:25.480 great for single flow tasks, tasks that don't require anything 393 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:28.240 other than a to do doing or done. 394 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:32.359 The most important column which is that won't do column. 395 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.640 A yeah yeah if yeah. But anyways, my problem with 396 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:40.960 that kind of style is that you don't have a 397 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.039 great visualization. Okay, so this story that we have now 398 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.680 developed this feature on, it's done? What is done even mean? 399 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:52.519 Does it mean that it has gone through the proper 400 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:57.400 code reviews, that it has passed a QA checkpoint, that 401 00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:01.119