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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pequena Show.

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I'm here with Patrick. Patrick. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing good. Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man, tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 2: First time on the show. Okay, first of all, this

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is quite an honor to be on the show. Basically,

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I host a little podcast which is sort of in

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the deepest corridors I would say, the web. It's not

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very well known, but I've interviewed some rather noteworthy people

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on my podcast. I've had the fortune of doing that.

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So what I do is, initially it started out as

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kind of an identitarian podcast, and I decided to sort

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of shift my analysis from identitarian politics to everything from

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survivalism to stuff like more complex sort of metapolitical topics

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and historical topics. But primarily that's that's sort of within

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the realms of identitarian politics and also like extreme politics

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as it relates to modern America.

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Speaker 1: I've been really getting into history, obviously, having Thomas seven

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seven seven, averaging like an episode a week for you know,

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over a year now, and doing as much as many

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other history podcast as I can. So when you reached

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out and you wanted to talk about something that I

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had heard of, but not something that I haven't I

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didn't really dive deep into, and also something that you know,

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I was alive when it was happening. Sure, yeah, I

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want to hear about it, especially since the intrigue of

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the parties involved. So you reached out and you said

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that you want what I'd be interested in talking about

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a little period in Italian history, the about nineteen sixty

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eight to nineteen eighty eight, the main period called the

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Years of Lead. How'd you get into it?

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Speaker 2: Practically? I looked into the Years of Lead after getting

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involved with this thinker by the name of Franko Freda.

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I had heard about this thinker from a person I

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had interviewed on my podcast by the name of that

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was his name, Zero Schizo, And if you look at

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my archives you can probably find that episode where we

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try to discuss it. I'll bee it. Many of my

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guests and broken English because they are from Peru and Mexico, respectively.

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So I was interested in this period because of Franko Freda.

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Primarily because Franko Freda, as I'll get into later, is

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a very fascinating and interesting character and also a what

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you would call a neo fascist. That's what scholars call them.

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I don't think Freda himself would probably call him a

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neo fascist. He would see himself in the mold of

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a revolutionary both combining national socialism and maoism, two things

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that are very contradictory. But he's also one, I would say,

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the premier accelerationist, because I wanted to understand sort of

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how accelerationism molds the political landscape as things start to

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shift from the extreme right to the extreme left. It's

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sort of like a pendulum, you know, it fluctuates and

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oscillates back and forth in American society, and I think

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America has never seen these sort of extremes. It's seen

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sort of individual sort of extremes and third parties, but

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it's never seen the extremes that Italy, you know, has seen.

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It really fascinating me to be two because a lot

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of the sort of neo fascist groups and even a

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lot of the leftist groups have a sort of perspective

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that I've seen on a lot of the more fringes

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on the right. And that's why I sort of got

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it into the years. I got into the years of lead. Well.

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Speaker 1: I think probably the most interesting part of it is

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when you start looking at who was involved, and for

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lack of a better term, just the belligerents that were involved.

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It was just far left, far right. Cia was in there.

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Gladiol is a part of it. This kid, this could

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be considered a part of the Cold War in essence.

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And when you look at who allegedly supported some of

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these people, some of the parties involved. I mean, this

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goes as deep as anything I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's part of why I got interested in it.

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Because as America starts to get more gridlocked in terms

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of in democracy, in my opinion, starts to fail, I

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believe you're going to see more of the rise of

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the extreme left in the extreme right to coincide into

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potential violence. We haven't seen that now, but I believe

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in that we have seen that to you know, a

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small extent, and there have been you know, eras of

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violence in American history from like the anarchists.

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Speaker 1: Well, what's funny is people will tell you, people will

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tell you, oh, Antifa and what happened the summer of

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twenty twenty. I mean, that's just horrible. It's incredible that

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that happened in the United States, there were literally terrorist

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attacks all through the sixties and seventies in major cities.

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People forget all of the freaking hijackings that happened in

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the nineteen seventies. You know, take me to take me

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to Cuba, take me to Puerto Rico, people hijacking play.

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I mean, it was what we've seen so far in

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the last few years has been you know, pretty or

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at least since Trump or you could say Ferguson Missouri

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really helped to kick this off. But seeing nothing compared

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to well, it's compared to what could Yeah, and.

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Speaker 2: I and I say that as could in And actually

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there is a sort of an analog in Italian history

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to what happened on January sixth. There was where the

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neo fascists actually occupied the Minister of Interior and tried

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to stage a coup. That was in nineteen seventy by

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this guy named uh Borghese who was a former uh

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former sort of squadron leader of the fascist His name

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was Borghese, and he did they did stage a coup

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and at the last minute minute it was sort of

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cold off. And so I think there are a lot

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of analogous kind of features of the years of lead,

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which we will we see on both on both sides.

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I don't know if you really could call, idealistically the

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people of January sixth neo fascists in the same sense,

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but yes, you definitely see these sort of parallels between

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the two societies. The only thing I will say is

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the way that the left and right are structured in

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Italy is they're a little different than Americans in that

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they sort of have a cultural landscape and a cultural

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mollule to sort of tap into. Americans, no disrespect to anyone,

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are sort of formless, and they sort of are just consumerist.

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There really is no romantic notion of America anymore like

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there was, let's say, you know, during the Frontier, even

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like in the fifties, there is no And during the

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fifties I think that's when sort of the romanticism of

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America started to wane. The neo fascist and I'm just

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calling them that just for the sake of brevity, and

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the leftists saw Italy as something to culturally tap into,

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and that's something I see that is different from America itself.

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America itself, like I said, doesn't have the institution, he

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doesn't have sort of the culture that Italy had at

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the time. And I will say this that Italy itself

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has a very rich history in revolutions, and that goes

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back to the reseieg Ricogimento. That goes back to during

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that period when there was a guy named Mazzini Garibaldi,

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and there are many other sort of Italian patriots. Now

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what's interesting about Geribaldi was, of course, I would say

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the warrior faction of the Rissogimento. Mazzini was more of

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the thinker. Mazzini was never appreciated within his time period,

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but he took the formations of the eighteen forty eight

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revolutions throughout Europe and he decided to put his uniquely

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sort of Italian stamp on it. He was a big

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proponent of secret societies. He was a big proponent of

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something called the Carbonari. Not to be mistaken by the

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Cabinii or they were. They were actually this kind of

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mystical sect that people think may have formed many of

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the mafias in Italy itself. So the lodge system in Italy,

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and I will that will play a big part in

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the years led because of course there was this this

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lodge called the propaganda do. That was where a lot

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of the sort of neo fascists and even some of

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the Christian Democrats UH sort of hit out and was

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able to, you know, front for a lot of the

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state actors which were helping out both sides. Well. In

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Italy there's a dual system. There's a dual lodge system

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that is a visible lodge and an invisible lodge. So

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unlike other forms of masonry, this had kind of a

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unique stamp of Italian stamp on it, and Mazzini took

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full advantage of that. Now, Mazeni is interesting because he

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rejected the socialism of Carl Marx. He was a friend

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of Adam wisehapp this has led to a lot of speculations,

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such as the very sensationalistic letter that people often taaled

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as Mazini and Albert Pike. That's largely a fabrication. But

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Mazzini was motivated by the nationhood, by Italy finally overcoming

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the hegemony of the Austrio Hungarian Empire. He was tired

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of Italy being under the heel and Italy of course

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was divided into sort of three zones. The only place

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of course being free was the Kingdom of Piedmont, and

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he assembled a group of people called the Young Italians.

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The Young Italians decided to strike out. And that's one

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like misconception people think they have about Italy itself. Italy

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was always a violent place. It was always a place

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of revolt. And this is like distinctly seen in Mazini's

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revolution and Garibaldi's revolution, but also many of the early

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sort of anarchist that made up the Italian landscape, they

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always embraced the sort of notion of death, this notion

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of like warriorhood, this notion of like these democratic ideals

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could not overcome them. And this is like Mazzini, even

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though he was sort of into democratic ideals, he was

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also a Pan Europeanist, and I think he was probably

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one of the first Pan Correct me if I'm wrong,

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but I don't think the notion of Pan Europeanism really

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became was prominent during the time during the late eighteen

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hundred its correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the.

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Speaker 1: Case, No, as far as I know that that movement,

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if that movement existed, it would have been splinter Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Mazzini was a Pan Europeanist. He wanted to see

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a unified Europe at that time, and I know in

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our scene there's a lot of people that think that

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canotes a kind of nefarious, uh sort of notion. And

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also what's what's interesting about Mazzini is there was a

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you're a younger person by the name of Bakunin, which

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if you're familiar with like the early sort of history

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of anarchism, Bakunin, Bakunin and Mazzini, what he actually was

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inspired by Mazzini about the secret society. Mazzini didn't believe

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in the pageantry or any of the metaphysics of freemasonry.

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He simply used the Masonic lodge as sort of a

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political tool. He saw it as like he secularized masonry

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and saw it as a means to sort of rebel

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against both the Vatican and the monarchy at the time,

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which I think a lot of people in your audience

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are probably reactionaries and they're pro monarchy. But this is

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around the time during eighteen forty eight when monarchy was

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sort of being questioned and these liberal ideals the nationhood

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were coming to the forefront, and Italy was no exception.

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Italy was a matter of fact, the last probably to

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adopt any of these notions because it was seen as

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the backwater like Italians. An Italian nationhood was sort of

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just seen as under the heel of the Austria Hungarian

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Empire and also the Vatican. And I think Evola he

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mentions this, the Ghibbelin and the Guelphine, the Giffling they mentioned,

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the Ghibelins of course being the Austro Hungarian Empire and

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thee the Guelphines being sort of the Vatican being the Pope,

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and those were the two sort of factions that were

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controlling most of Italy's history after the fall of Rome

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and after the follow of the Byzantine Empire. Then the

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reason why I mention all this and I'm going to

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move on, is because this set the stage for the

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use of revolutionary violence. Revolutionary violence is very important throughout

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Italy's history, throughout Italy's formation, and as you can see,

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even many of the earlier people like the anarchist and

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in fact, I have a thing I want to read

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from this particular anarchist name, Renzo Novatore. If people are

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not familiar with him, he was sort of the precursor of,

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or maybe influenced by, sort of the Embryonic stages of futurism.

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Futurism is a very strange, i will say, ideology, but

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it is something that came within Italy itself and it's

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something I believe set the stage for the ra cool

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extreme on the right and the left in Italy and

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it's it's stayed made his stamp proceeding that. Also, there

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was a group of people, like I mentioned Bakunin, there

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was a guy named Sergi Sergia Sergi ne Nitchev. Sorry

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if I'm mispronouncing these words, but he was a nihilist.

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He was this nihilist anarchist that spread all throughout Russia

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during the mid eighteen hundreds, which was responsible for a

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lot of different assassinations. They were also he developed the

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cell system, which you see a lot of revolutionaries both

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on the left and the right further use today. And

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this guy was adapted by a lot of the sixties radicals,

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including the Red Brigade, which I'm going to discuss. And

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he pretty much said that the path of a revolutionary

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is doomed. It's it's a person that they have to live,

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breathe and sleep revolution. They don't see any other recourse

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into developing this. Now, this is like I said, I

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have not seen this sort of fervor in any other

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form of you know, scenes in Europe. As a matter

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of fact, I have not seen a parallel of the

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violence that was escalated in the years of Lead in

241
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any of the other sort of post World War two countries.

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There was a little bit of radicalism with the Red

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Army faction in Germany itself, but the Red Army Faction largely,

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I think was largely a blip on the radar of

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like in largely German speaking countries. But I think Italy

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sort of has a unique sort of revolutionary stamp on that.

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So anyway, let me read this from surrogaate name give Nicheff.

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The revolutionary is a dedicated man. He must not be

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driven by his personal impulses, but must be directed by

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a common interest of the revolution. For him, the only

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thing that is moral and that with contributes to the

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triumph of revolution. All that obstructs that is immoral and criminal,

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and that is like the words of Catechism of a

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Revolutionary by Sergei Netzchev, that was part of the melliu

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that contributed, I believe, to a lot of the early

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impetus of anarchy. You know Italian anarchism, which would probably

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manifest itself in later times in uh, you know, in

258
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the Red Brigade and many I would even argue many

259
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of the fascists sort of the divide between the fascism

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and anarchism in Italy itself and the and sort of

261
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how it's delineated is an interesting subject onto itself, and

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00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:04,359
many people that are in antifa will argue that the

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fascist stamp on anarchism or the anarchist stamp on fascism

264
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is a point of contention to a lot of like

265
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modern day anarchists. Now, I'm personally not an anarchist myself,

266
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but I do find the subject rather interesting, considering the

267
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fact that this is sort of the framework that a

268
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lot constructs a lot of the certain postmodern kind of left,

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and especially the so called revolutionary left, which I said,

270
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largely in America. It's based on liberal ideals, mainly about

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identity as opposed to ideology. Now, this is something from

272
00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:45,400
Renzo Novatore. He says, only the one who knows and

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practices the iconoclast theory of destruction can possess the joy

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born of freedom, of that unique freedom fertilized by sorrow,

275
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is rise up against the reality and the outer world

276
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for the triumph of the reality of my inner world.

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I reject society for the triumph of I. I reject

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00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,640
the stability of every role, every custom, every morality, for

279
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:14,839
the affirmation of every wilful instinct, all free emotionality, every passion,

280
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and every fantasy. I mock every duty and every right

281
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so I can sing free will I score in the

282
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future to suffer and enjoy the good, bad and present.

283
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,440
I despise humanity because it is not my humanity. I

284
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hate tyrants, I detest slaves. I don't want, I don't want,

285
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and I don't grant solidarity because I'm convinced the new chain,

286
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,519
and because i believe with Ibisin the one is the

287
00:19:43,559 --> 00:19:48,759
most alone, is the strongest world one. This is my nihilism.

288
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And further, he says, we have killed duty so our

289
00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:56,720
ardent desire for free brotherhood acquires heroic valor in life.

290
00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:00,640
We have killed pity because we are the barbarian capable

291
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,200
of great love. We have killed altruism because we are

292
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the glorious egoist. We have killed philanthropic solidarity so that

293
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the social man onearths his most secret eye and finds

294
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the strength of the unique, and that is Renzo novatory

295
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towards a creative nothing.

296
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Speaker 1: In other writings, that sounds like it could be the

297
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,279
Shining Path in Peru could have adopted that. It was

298
00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,920
probably the most nihilistic of all the communists in the

299
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:31,720
twentieth century.

300
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Shining Path is an interesting anarchist group. But yes,

301
00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:40,640
I think they probably did adopt a lot of the

302
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,480
Russian nihilist. The reason why I'm reading this is because

303
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,880
I'm trying to produce a backdrop of sort of what

304
00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:53,920
influenced a lot of both the fascist and the leftist.

305
00:20:54,039 --> 00:20:56,559
And I will say also another prominent thinker that is

306
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:04,279
very important is Surrill George Georgia Surreal of course and

307
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:09,799
his reflections upon violence. He emphasized that the violence of

308
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:16,880
the proletariat was a sort of measuring stick for class

309
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,839
and a strengthening and kind of a cleanser of sort

310
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,519
of the bourgeoisie. And I think this appealed to a

311
00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:30,880
young Mussolini very much. Mussolini, who at the time was

312
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,720
a socialist, when he was reading Currell or Sorel, really

313
00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:40,279
was impressed by this and really was impressed that there

314
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,799
was sort of a syndicalist thinker such as Cirell that

315
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:51,200
was embracing sort of Nietzschean you know, concepts of overcoming

316
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,799
and not not you know, emphasizing kind of you know,

317
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,359
the oppressed or that or sorrow should be a main

318
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,039
you know, staple of you know, kind of leftist thinking

319
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,680
or that you know, the oppressed.

320
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: Well, Thomas uh has done two episodes. We've done two

321
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:16,559
episodes together on Sorel on Reflections on Violence. I keep

322
00:22:16,599 --> 00:22:20,680
a copy of it on my desk with me. You know,

323
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,400
Thomas said, Sorell is what Nietzsche should have been.

324
00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 2: I actually agree, because Sorell was kind of proactive, unlike

325
00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:32,799
Nietzsche was sort of not pro Nietzsche just sort of

326
00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:36,039
wallowed and sort of is, you know, in his own

327
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,319
nihilism as much as he wanted to overcome. So I

328
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,119
kind of agree with that that Soirell kind of put

329
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,519
Nietzsche's thoughts into praxis as opposed to just you know,

330
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:53,400
lingering and lanterning. I agree with that about his observations

331
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,119
about Cyrel. But I think this inspired and this of

332
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,079
course inspired Giovanna a Gentilla who was also inspired by Hegel,

333
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:05,400
who came up with a concept called actualism, who soon

334
00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:09,200
saw sort of the state as a necessary function to

335
00:23:09,279 --> 00:23:15,440
move history as opposed to like class antagonism. So that's

336
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,799
a little backdrop about some of the foundations about, you know,

337
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,759
the ideological foundations I believe that are very essential to

338
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:28,079
the years of lead. That is bakunin Is concept of

339
00:23:28,319 --> 00:23:33,279
you know, violence and the commune, the eternal commune, the

340
00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:37,680
concept Georgia Sirel and his concept of like a heroic violence.

341
00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:46,599
In addition to that, also the concept of Sergei Natschev

342
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,279
and the horror of course the nihilist revolutionary which would

343
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later sort of influence the the Red Brigade. Also one

344
00:23:57,279 --> 00:24:01,000
central feature that I've noticed with the left that's maybe

345
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:06,000
some commonality in America itself is the use of criminals,

346
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,000
which I believe, according to Marx would be called the

347
00:24:09,079 --> 00:24:16,160
lumpen prol However, to the Red Brigade, the Rebrigade believed

348
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:23,160
that the prisons were fertile grounds for recruitment, for they're

349
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,960
the revolt against the state and their Marxist Leninist expression.

350
00:24:28,279 --> 00:24:32,400
They saw the you know, prisons as a fertile ground

351
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,480
of sort of recruitment, and I believe that's that's some

352
00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:40,079
commonality with the left in America, but I think there's

353
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,200
some vast differences there. Like I said, the Italian landscape

354
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:47,720
is a little different from America in that largely I

355
00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:53,000
don't want to stereotype Italy, Italians or Italy because it

356
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,400
is a good culture. But there is some, uh, you know,

357
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,799
streams of corruption in terms when you know, the state

358
00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:05,319
and criminals and politico radical politics come into play in

359
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,400
many cases, maybe the you know, Red Brigade and maybe

360
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,640
even the fascists themselves, who also recruited, I would say,

361
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,720
from the criminal underworld, really didn't have a choice in

362
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,920
terms of what the who their bagmen were. So let

363
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:26,759
me get into sort of the post World War two Italy.

364
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:32,720
Excuse me, now, Post World War two Italy is an

365
00:25:32,759 --> 00:25:38,079
interesting study onto itself because you have, like I said,

366
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,160
the division between north, central and South Italy. These things

367
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:49,119
are important geopolitically, and this is an important portional meta history.

368
00:25:49,599 --> 00:25:55,279
The Allied forces largely disposed of the Salo Republic. The

369
00:25:55,319 --> 00:26:00,200
Salo Republic was the remaining public of the Fascist that

370
00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:03,440
was still remaining in nineteen forty. In the early nineteen

371
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,799
forties to the mid nineteen forties, now at the same time,

372
00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:08,559
and I want to say that in terms of the

373
00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:11,240
years of lead, there's many different things in the backdrop

374
00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:15,160
that's going on simultaneously in tandem with one another, and

375
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,519
there's many layers to this, and I want to illustrate

376
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:23,519
this to the audience that understand that there's many different

377
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,319
like layers to Italy and the foundations of Italy. Well,

378
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,720
the Americans, I believe, people like James Jesus Angleton, and

379
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:36,680
I don't want to get too too far into like

380
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,119
conspiracy territory, because you know, this topic can lead to

381
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,839
a lot of like conspiracy and a lot of different layers.

382
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:48,680
And Italians, from what I've researched and what I've looked into,

383
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:52,240
they really love conspiracies. They really love conspiracies. But anyway,

384
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,240
a very important player in Italy's sort of foundations of

385
00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:04,400
all people is James Jesus Ingleton. James Jesus Engleton had

386
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:10,079
this notion because of his experience with Kim Philby, and

387
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,519
Kim Philby was this sort of spook that was, you know,

388
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,480
part of the British intelligence that was also a double agent.

389
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:27,200
And because of this this incident, James Angleton, James Jesus

390
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,240
Angleton decided that it would probably be a good proactive

391
00:27:31,319 --> 00:27:36,160
measure to try to stop communism from spreading into you know,

392
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,680
portions of Western Europe. And at that time it was

393
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,640
really important to keep communism out of you know, places

394
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,200
like you know, it would it was rather failed, but

395
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,559
it was important to keep it out of like central

396
00:27:50,599 --> 00:27:55,119
and you know, expreading any further into like a you know, uh,

397
00:27:55,279 --> 00:27:58,960
you know, places like Yugoslavia, et cetera, of the Czech Republic.

398
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,720
They didn't want to spread there because Italy was a

399
00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:08,480
very important sort of geopolitical position for them to have

400
00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:14,200
to seize upon. Well, he decided because his father also

401
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,720
had many friendly relations with Bussolini. Now that fascism is

402
00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:22,839
sort of condemned in America, it's important to note that

403
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,720
America itself used to be on friendly relations with Bussolini.

404
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:30,960
When Mussolini rose to power, many people thought he was

405
00:28:31,599 --> 00:28:34,079
sort of a prodigal he They thought he was sort

406
00:28:34,079 --> 00:28:38,039
of the answer to a lot of the problems that

407
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,519
was with socialism and democracy, so they sort of herald

408
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:45,759
him as you know, a figure. There was a lot

409
00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:50,319
of friendly gestures to America. Well, Angleton's father was very

410
00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:54,480
was a businessman. He established a lot of factories and

411
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,960
managed a lot of factories in Italy itself, and his

412
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:00,880
son lived there for a little while, and I think

413
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,880
this made an impression upon his son, just like the

414
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,680
Kim Philby incident. So what Angleton decided to do is

415
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,799
decided to collude with a lot of the former fascists

416
00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:16,319
that were getting liberated by the resistance. So America was

417
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:19,200
using the resistance at the same time, it was sort

418
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,640
of working with the fascists. That's kind of how American

419
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,960
geopolitics work. It's anything that's Macchiavellian that can work on

420
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,480
either political extreme, they will utilize that to maximize that

421
00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:38,559
to its fullest extent. And Angleton was doing this. He

422
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:42,799
devised and he was in charge of the Italian Desk

423
00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:48,960
up until I believe nineteen forty six. I think he

424
00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:55,039
was uninstalled, but still Gladio stay behind networks largely in Italy,

425
00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:59,160
probably where the probably was the work of James Jesus Angleton.

426
00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:04,160
Ever know for sure if that is like the definite

427
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,240
person who started this, because like I said, a lot

428
00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:09,960
of Italian history around this part is kind of this point,

429
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,319
it's kind of murky on all sides. But we do

430
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,599
know that the intelligence agencies were heavily fixed into Italian

431
00:30:17,599 --> 00:30:21,359
politics at this time, and the Communist we're gaining a

432
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,000
lot of foothold in the northern portion of Italy, there's

433
00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:29,319
no doubt about it. Around post World War Two, there

434
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,079
was a lot of industrial development, you know, due to

435
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:35,319
the Marshall Plan, A lot of Southerners, a lot of

436
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:38,519
people from southern Italy who were more agrarian started to

437
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,200
migrate to places like Milan, Padua, all these different places

438
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,519
in northern Italy which later I believe will be hotbeds

439
00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:52,359
to in Tuscany, which will be hotbeds of both neo

440
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:58,599
fascists and also like leftists sort of extremism. So it's

441
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,880
important to note that that is like these are like

442
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,279
the ground levels, these are the players. So what they

443
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:07,319
did is they divided these different parties. They made the

444
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,720
Christian Democrats. The Christian Democrats was sort of these moderate

445
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,960
They had a coalition of both center right, center left people.

446
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:22,519
There was of course the PCI, they were a Italian

447
00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,559
communist group. They were largely sort of subdued. They were

448
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,680
kept out of like elections. It didn't stop their popularity

449
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,359
of course, because northern Italy, for whatever reason, has always

450
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:37,319
been a hotbed, with the exceptions of places like Venice

451
00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:44,400
or Tuscany, of leftists, communists, sort of extremism. It's it's

452
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,000
always been a hotbed of that. I don't know why

453
00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:49,960
that is. It always seems like the further closest to

454
00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:54,200
the Germanic speaking you know, the Germans speaking sort of nations.

455
00:31:54,599 --> 00:31:58,440
It seems to have sort of these progressive or liberal

456
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,119
ideas seem to appeal uh to a lot of these

457
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,279
these groups. I don't know whether it did. Maybe there's

458
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:08,279
a bio character, maybe there's something biological in there that's

459
00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:11,920
intertwined with their politics. But this is a very hot

460
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,799
spot for that. This is a very so there also

461
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,799
was it In addition to that, the MSI, the ms

462
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,279
I was was a fascist group. It was a fascist group.

463
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:28,480
I will note, unlike Nazi Germany, there was never a

464
00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:31,680
dnacific There was never any kind of a defascification, if

465
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,000
that's even a word of Italy. There was never any

466
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:39,680
kind of cleansing of the Italian infrastructure of fascist. Fascists

467
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,440
were ingrained and they were entrenched in all of the

468
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,920
military and all of the all the different sectors, you know,

469
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,599
the military sectors, the police sectors, and the state intelligence sectors.

470
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,000
So they didn't really cleanse, you know, if that's appropriate word.

471
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,960
They never really lends, you know, Italy of any of

472
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,440
the sort of fascist infrastructure. And this continued on the day.

473
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,000
That's why I think Angleton and some of the intelligence

474
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,200
agencies were able to sort of collude with one another

475
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,720
against the Communists. Well, nineteen nineteen forty eight rolls around,

476
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,640
and the Communists are gaining momentum. The Communists are gaining momentum.

477
00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:27,279
This is the first time in Italy's politics they interfere

478
00:33:27,319 --> 00:33:30,720
with the elections. Now, let me just emphasize I'm not

479
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,519
pro communists. I need to illustrate that I'm not pro communists.

480
00:33:34,519 --> 00:33:40,039
I'm just stating what is a historical fact. America, for

481
00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:44,680
better or worse, interfered with the elections of Italy. And

482
00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:46,759
you know, I think this will probably set the trend

483
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:50,839
in America interfering in many different elections across the globe.

484
00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:54,640
But part of the ground zero was in Italy and

485
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,079
they stopped. They put the Christian Democrats in a position

486
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,680
of power, and I believe this antagonized not only the

487
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,759
leftists who saw the the Communists, all the Christian Democrats

488
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:12,920
and also even the mainstream Communist Party as being sort

489
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:18,199
of interlopers and not true representation of their ideology. So

490
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,639
this like lock the system. This provided a type of

491
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:26,440
gridlock that we see in today's democracies. This provided a

492
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,800
kind of This paved the way for the years, the

493
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,920
years of lead and with the MSI. However, the initial

494
00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:42,320
person they installed was actually anti Uit. Now the America

495
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,320
didn't like that. America didn't like and they didn't like

496
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,519
the fact that they were anti NATO, anti sorry not

497
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:52,880
anti anti NATO and anti Uit. They didn't like that

498
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,800
at all. They wanted to unstall him, so they did,

499
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,119
and they put in a more friendly sort of moderate

500
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,199
fascist candidates. So, like I said, this caused a lot

501
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,960
of splinter This caused a lot of derision in the MSI,

502
00:35:09,119 --> 00:35:11,519
and like I said, all these things are going on

503
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,000
in tandem in the backdrop, and it just created sort

504
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,280
of a elaborateine sort of mess in Italy itself and

505
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,960
made sort of things kind of convoluted and really paved

506
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:33,599
the way for extremism. Fast forward, fast forward to nineteen sixty. Well, actually,

507
00:35:33,639 --> 00:35:38,360
let me go back to nineteen fifty seven. Nineteen fifty seven,

508
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,519
there is a new party. This is a more extreme party.

509
00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:49,719
This is called the Nuovo Ordaine. This is the National Order.

510
00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:56,159
This was started by a guy named Pino to Ratu Ratui,

511
00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:04,039
and he of course would have under his tutelage both

512
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,840
a guy named Stefano de la Chiai and also frank

513
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,480
Go Freda, which I'm sure people in your audience know

514
00:36:11,559 --> 00:36:14,840
who Franko Freda is. They may not be that acquainted

515
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:23,239
with Stefano de la Chiai. Now the fashion the radical

516
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,239
faction of the the You.

517
00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: Know Franco Freda is still alive.

518
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's still alive.

519
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: Yes, he's eighty two.

520
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be really cool to the interview them, if

521
00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:39,079
anybody could get an interview with them. That would be

522
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:41,280
really awesome if someone could do that. And I'm kind

523
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,760
of a I'm impressed. You know who Franko Freda is.

524
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:51,119
That's pretty awesome. But that's pretty awesome. But like I said,

525
00:36:51,159 --> 00:36:53,480
people don't know who Stefano de la Chiai, and he's

526
00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:57,760
actually kind of just as important as Frankofreda hisself because

527
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,960
they actually colluded with one another, and they also Now

528
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,679
I've heard people say Frankofreda was largely responsible for most

529
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,920
of the terrorist activity that occurred during the years. Let

530
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,880
this is actually incorrect. The guy who was largely the

531
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,039
bagman and is very elusive is Stefano de la Chiai.

532
00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:26,039
And this guy is as fascinating as Franco Freda. So

533
00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:33,559
Stefano de la Chiai. He decides to he wants to

534
00:37:33,599 --> 00:37:39,400
start his own party. He doesn't like the MSI, he

535
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,440
doesn't like the Nuovo Ardine. He starts the avant Gardia.

536
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,800
He starts the avant Gardia, which is the the new

537
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,119
the new order, not sorry, not the new order, but

538
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:59,000
the let me find uh. Yeah. He starts at the

539
00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:03,840
avant Gardia National Vanguard, National yes, yes, sorry, National Vanguard, yes, sir.

540
00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:09,119
He starts to National Vanguard, and he decides he decides

541
00:38:09,159 --> 00:38:15,000
to take politics in a more sort of extreme manner. Now,

542
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,360
I have held off on mentioning the strategy Attention, but

543
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,159
I'm going to mention here right now about the strategy Attention. Well,

544
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:29,320
Strategy Attention, there's some controversy about its its origins. You

545
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,039
could attribute it maybe to you know, the state actors

546
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:36,960
which were colluding with the ci and Glaudio. But I

547
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,159
think that's a little bit too simplistic, because people like

548
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,440
Stefano de la Chiai and Freda himself actually wanted to

549
00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:52,760
They wanted to accelerate the destruction of the state. They

550
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:58,000
did not respect the sort of democratic republic which was

551
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:01,360
installed by America. They saw it as decadent, they saw

552
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,519
it as degenerate. They saw it as entrenched in sort

553
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:09,639
of Americanism and the purveyor of liberalism all across Europe.

554
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:12,960
They wanted something that is more heroic, they wanted something

555
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,840
that is more warrior like, and they believe the only

556
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,280
means that you could develop this society was through blood.

557
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,880
They didn't believe you could, you know, compromise with the state.

558
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,960
They didn't believe there was political action. They believed simply

559
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,159
that you had to attain this sort and they sort

560
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:38,119
of had a metaphysical understanding of attaining the statehood through

561
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,719
the works. And I'm sure your audience knows of Julius Vola,

562
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,400
and they were especially fond of a particular book called

563
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:50,559
Right the Tiger. They were which in that book, I

564
00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:54,079
believe Evola says, and I have read it. Evola says

565
00:39:54,159 --> 00:39:59,519
that a Holy Warrior basically is based upon war. The

566
00:39:59,559 --> 00:40:04,400
person has to bring about a new order, bring around

567
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,239
a new sort of like what he said, aristocracy, you know,

568
00:40:08,559 --> 00:40:12,440
of the soul through war. You couldn't like mince words.

569
00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:16,639
And I think this fire that Ivola had and the

570
00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:21,719
adaptation the adaptation of Ivola's principles too by Stefano di Lacchiai,

571
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,599
and also to fred it hearkens back to Sorel. It

572
00:40:25,679 --> 00:40:29,480
hearkens back to people like Rinzo Novatore. It hearkens back

573
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:33,320
to you know, even I would say, even to Mazini,

574
00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:36,639
to where there was like the spirit, to where the

575
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:42,000
modern day world democracy, Americanism is like a corrosive rot

576
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,840
in Italy itself. It's a rot, it's disease that's spreading

577
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,400
all throughout society. And I will contrast sort of the

578
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:56,159
notions of the fascists versus the you know, leftist sort

579
00:40:56,159 --> 00:40:59,400
of the communist in that they kind of wanted the

580
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,920
same thing, but they wanted a different ideal. The communists

581
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,760
didn't care about aristocracy, they didn't care about sort of

582
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,039
a new spiritual sort of aristocracy. They instead wanted sort

583
00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:16,639
of a proletariat sort of dictatorship. Based upon pure Marxist

584
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:24,400
Leninist praxist ideology. The communists in the state, they wanted

585
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,239
to do things, do more, They wanted to compromise, they

586
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,239
wanted to do it more through state action. People like

587
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:37,639
the Red Brigade. They wanted to strike the system, just

588
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,199
like Freda. And I think that's probably why Freda decided

589
00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:45,719
it was good to strike up a relationship with the

590
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,960
left and the right. Now, Freda, of course didn't didn't

591
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,639
get much popularity. He was not very popular in his time.

592
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:57,199
And I think there's probably more people on the Internet

593
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:01,280
that sort of appreciate Treda, you know, an accelerate his

594
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:07,840
brand of accelerationism more so than anybody at the current

595
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:11,760
like contemporary like Freda was considered I think a nut

596
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,960
by most Bimel still left in the right, he was

597
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,079
sort of a marginal figure. Now let me go back

598
00:42:18,119 --> 00:42:23,000
to strategy attention. The strategy attention came about in a

599
00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:30,199
meeting between Penal Ratu Ratui, Stefano de la Chiai, Freda,

600
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,639
and a various other neo fascist They had a meeting

601
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:38,639
in nineteen sixty four and there and and there probably

602
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:41,360
were plenty state actors there. There were probably people from

603
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,079
the P two lage. There were probably people from the CIA.

604
00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:48,079
There were probably various different like state actors that were

605
00:42:48,119 --> 00:42:53,480
acting as you know, officials, and the sort of brokering

606
00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:56,880
between the two sort of factions. As a matter of fact,

607
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,880
what's interesting is the MSI itself, you sort of use,

608
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,719
the neo fascist themselves has sort of broke as sort

609
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,920
of bagmen. They sort of saw the n O and

610
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:13,000
the AV as sort of like people that you could

611
00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:17,000
they were actors upon the state, people from which you

612
00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:20,519
could easily utilize and then discard. So they saw them

613
00:43:20,559 --> 00:43:26,840
as bag men to dispense violence across Italy. And like

614
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,280
I said, this is all still very controversial, however, make

615
00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:35,400
of what you will say about violence. But obviously at

616
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,199
this time they thought that was a very good strategy.

617
00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:42,920
They thought the CIA state actors in Italy thought it

618
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:48,280
was all something that should be maximized to its fullest extent. Now,

619
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:53,559
strategy attention said that they would do terrorist acts and

620
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:56,159
they would blame it on the left. Now the left,

621
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,320
let me just stull you the left is no stranger

622
00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:02,320
to islands. As we can kind of, as I discussed earlier,

623
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,679
sort of the dictates that it was based upon. You know,

624
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,800
the anarchist Italy's history of the left has you know,

625
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,800
been tremendously bloody, and they did not mind utilizing the

626
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,519
left and the left and did mine. The only pronounced

627
00:44:19,519 --> 00:44:23,559
difference I will say between leftists and rightis sort of

628
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:27,840
strategy attention violence, was that the right tended to focus

629
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:33,840
on bombing public areas, and the left they liked to

630
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:40,440
kidnaped magistrates, public officials. They did something called kneecapping. Kneecapping

631
00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:45,159
was where they would shoot someone in the kneecap. I

632
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,159
don't know where they got that method from, but that

633
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,880
was a very popular method amongst the left at the time.

634
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,719
They would they would they wouldn't They would actually kidnap

635
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,679
you know, these different middle management factory workers and engineers

636
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:02,440
and aimed them up to different factories. So it was

637
00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:07,840
not unheard of because like simultaneously, as like the strategy

638
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,119
attention was unfolding, there was also like, you know, this

639
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,400
was soon to be the hot Autumn in nineteen sixty eight,

640
00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:19,760
which was the spread of this sort of leftist these

641
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,079
leftist notions that were adopted from France and from America

642
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:28,039
itself kind of their equivalent of the nineteen sixty you know,

643
00:45:28,119 --> 00:45:32,760
nineteen sixties in America. So they started to adopting, adopting

644
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:38,119
these like sort of radical you know, these radical ideologies

645
00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:43,039
within their you know, within their milieu. So, like I said,

646
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,360
the use of violence was not unknown to the left.

647
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,719
So like they thought this the State Department of Italy,

648
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,679
the State Intelligence and the CI and probably a lot

649
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,400
of the neo fascists said, well, they don't like one another. Okay,

650
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,440
they were very strange bedfellows. And oftentimes when I read

651
00:46:03,519 --> 00:46:08,639
stuff about frieda Aras Staffano de la CHIAI I often

652
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,440
wonder the people that are examining, you know, these people,

653
00:46:13,519 --> 00:46:16,880
just as their analysis to the left, do these people

654
00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:23,599
really understand or truly want to understand why such terrorism

655
00:46:23,639 --> 00:46:28,239
sort of manifests itself? What causes this? What central thing

656
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:33,679
about democracy seems to irritate people to the extent to

657
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,360
where they want to lash out at the system very violently,

658
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,880
to where they shut out any kind of let's just say,

659
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,199
heroic notions or any kind of notions of valiancy or

660
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:52,119
warriorhood or like it's it's like almost like neoliberalism and postmodernism.

661
00:46:52,159 --> 00:46:55,679
It doesn't matter that these these notions. It's Italy is

662
00:46:55,639 --> 00:46:59,639
a democratic everyone has represented it and everybody has a

663
00:46:59,679 --> 00:47:02,960
represent and if everyone has their say, and therefore it

664
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,639
invalidates or nullifies any kind of tradition which any of

665
00:47:06,639 --> 00:47:09,440
this country had. It doesn't mold or shape itself to

666
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,480
the tradition of the country. It simply sort of creates

667
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,119
this aberration for what I've seen of democracy. And they

668
00:47:19,199 --> 00:47:21,599
don't have this notion that, you know, maybe there's something

669
00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:25,039
wrong with democrat itself. Every single scholar I've read on

670
00:47:25,119 --> 00:47:29,920
the years of Lead, they don't want to qualify what

671
00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:36,320
causes this, you know, they're very vague about what causes this. Now.

672
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,440
One thing that's that's interesting, also preceding the years of lead,

673
00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:44,679
which sort of shows state collusion, was this this incident

674
00:47:44,679 --> 00:47:49,880
that occurred a coup and a nineteen sixty five called

675
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,320
the Piano Solo. This is where a neo fascist and

676
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:02,599
also some of the state actors wanted to destroy as

677
00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:05,719
sort of the communist centers. They also wanted to destroy.

678
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,400
They wanted to they wanted to destroy, they wanted to

679
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:12,639
kidnap and hijack sort of the government at the time.

680
00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:17,519
And what's interesting about that is that many people believe

681
00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:20,199
this is kind of a false flag. I don't know

682
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:26,480
how people feel about false flags. But the Italian politician

683
00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:31,000
of Aldo Moro, which in later times, which was kidnapped

684
00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:39,679
by the Red Brigade in nineteen seventy seventy eight, they

685
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,199
tried to actually kidnap him. They tried to exile and

686
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:50,760
deport you know, filmmakers like Passolini, who was an Italian

687
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:56,559
communist filmmaker. He did the Salo Days of Sodom. They

688
00:48:56,639 --> 00:49:02,920
wanted to hijack the television industry, the communications, and they

689
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:09,320
wanted to occupy government buildings. And this was largely the mastermind,

690
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,199
I would say, of the Italian State Department to Italian intelligence.

691
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,280
And of course again they were using the neo fascist

692
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:22,280
sort of as bagmen to utilize this. Excuse me, now,

693
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,119
what I wonder about this, maybe you can fill me

694
00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:28,119
in on this, peat is, what do you think about

695
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,760
you know this this sort of a state intelligence in

696
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,440
Italy itself sort of utilizing the neo fascist as bagmen.

697
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it would seem to line up with Gladio,

698
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,719
with what we know about Gladio. You know what you know,

699
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,320
we asked the question, why was there not a denocification

700
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:52,440
in Italy. Well, I mean, I think it's obvious. I mean,

701
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,800
I think that's just if you know anything about Gladio,

702
00:49:56,639 --> 00:49:58,119
that question answers itself.

703
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: But I mean I've also wondered why. I mean, I know,

704
00:50:01,519 --> 00:50:05,599
I understand Italy was a central sort of geo political point,

705
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:07,280
and this is saying I believe the same thing is

706
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,119
going on right now with Ukraine. I hate to veer

707
00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:12,760
off topic, but I think Ukraine parallels a lot with

708
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:17,599
the years led in that they're sort of they're utilizing,

709
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:21,199
in my opinion, the far right to implement a lot

710
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:25,920
of the neoliberalism in America in Ukraine itself. That's very controversial,

711
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,559
I know, but that seems what they're doing. It seems

712
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,360
like the far right are always willing actors of sort

713
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,440
of the CIA or the State Department of Intelligence. They

714
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,920
always latch on. And I'm just going to say, I

715
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,840
believe that the far right has some healthy instincts about tradition.

716
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,639
Speaker 1: About well the right, I mean, Thomas talks about this

717
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,400
in our Spanish Civil War series. And there's no Fascist

718
00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:01,000
internationale so but you have if you have a leftist

719
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:07,039
or a communist or any kind of leftist movement pop

720
00:51:07,159 --> 00:51:10,800
up in a country, especially back then, there's international money

721
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,239
flowing in anything that would pop up from the right,

722
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:16,800
you know, and people are going to be like, well,

723
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,320
these guys weren't right wingers and everything. It's like that

724
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,599
these are European right wingers. It's a different thing. Have

725
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:28,679
some nuanced shut up. If they're motivated, they're basically willing

726
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,400
to take their money wherever they can get it. And

727
00:51:31,559 --> 00:51:33,960
unfortunately it seems like a lot of the time, a

728
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,760
lot of the time when you know, I know Pinoch

729
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,000
basically for the coup, took help from the CIA, but

730
00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:44,519
he immediately kicked them out. I mean, I have the CIA,

731
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,119
I have the CIA's file on him. They hated that guy.

732
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,719
He was not a CIA puppet. He used the CIA,

733
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,400
which is I mean, one of the reasons why, you know,

734
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:59,599
the man was brilliant. But I think it's just more

735
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,639
more of anything that you don't you don't have international support.

736
00:52:04,639 --> 00:52:07,840
Right wing movements don't have international support like left wing

737
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,360
movements do. So right wing movements take support wherever they

738
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:11,760
can get.

739
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:17,559
Speaker 2: That's that's good assessment. But what I did discover, however,

740
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,800
when I was investigating in the years of lead is

741
00:52:20,519 --> 00:52:24,559
Stefano de la Chiai actually was an international thinker. He

742
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:29,039
was a person that thought geopolitically internationally. Now, whether that

743
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:34,360
was by coercion, by by coercion by the CIA, or

744
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:41,159
by you know, other factors, he had to wherewithal to

745
00:52:41,199 --> 00:52:46,239
strike out alongside the O A S. I don't know

746
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,519
if you're familiar with the if your audience is familiar,

747
00:52:48,599 --> 00:52:51,519
I'm not going to underestimate the intelligence your audience, but

748
00:52:51,599 --> 00:52:53,719
I think they're probably familiar with the OA S. O

749
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,480
S was this French sort of pro colonial force that

750
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:02,599
was going throughout Algae area and they were fighting against

751
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,000
you know, the former you know, anti colonialist movements. Well,

752
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,880
CHII actually struck up sort of a friendship or an

753
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:16,239
alliance with the OAS, which, of all places, was actually

754
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,719
going through this this particular publishing company called a Genter Press.

755
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,000
I don't know if anyone's heard of that, but a

756
00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:29,840
Genter Press was this publishing company. It was really a

757
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,599
front for a paramilitary organization that many people think might

758
00:53:33,639 --> 00:53:36,960
be a front for the CIA or some intelligence agency.

759
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,039
It was paced in Portugal, but Chiai had the sort

760
00:53:41,039 --> 00:53:46,000
of tact tactum to you know, initiate a relationship with

761
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:51,199
them to use them to disperse his message. And this

762
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,599
also is interesting as he also struck up kind of

763
00:53:54,599 --> 00:53:58,320
a There was no international but there was a group

764
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,599
of people in Spain and frank with Spain that was

765
00:54:01,679 --> 00:54:04,519
largely sympathetic to the neo fascists in Italy that did

766
00:54:04,679 --> 00:54:08,199
harbor them. This was made comprised of Otto Skorzeni. I

767
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,679
believe Degrell was a member. I believe Ramer I believe

768
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:16,000
many of these former sort of national socialists and fascist

769
00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:20,960
were sympathetic to the Italian neo fascist so Stefano di

770
00:54:21,159 --> 00:54:25,760
la Chiai especially and this will pertain to the Piazza

771
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:33,360
Fontana bombing. The Piazza Fontana bombing was a cataclysmic event

772
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,119
in Italy's history. This is the first time that we

773
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:43,480
sort of see the strategy of tension take root, and

774
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,800
largely this is considered to be The authorities at the

775
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,760
time didn't see it as the brainchild of Franco Freda,

776
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,800
although they will round it up later, and they also

777
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:59,079
rounded up Stefano Dilachiai. They saw it as the brainshot

778
00:54:59,079 --> 00:55:03,880
of the anarchist. There was this particular anarchist from which

779
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:09,400
they threw out the window. They actually they interrogated him,

780
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,280
this officer by the name of Luigi Calibrazi. Through this

781
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,440
this anarchist out the window to his death and called

782
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,920
it a suicide. An investigation later proved that it was.

783
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:25,400
It was largely the Italian cops did throw the anarchist

784
00:55:25,599 --> 00:55:29,760
out the window and during nineteen sixty nine. Now what's

785
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,280
interesting about Stefanodela Chiai, he put his money where his

786
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:38,079
mouth is in terms of the strategeum or the strategy

787
00:55:38,079 --> 00:55:43,159
attention is that he was allegedly trying to utilize the

788
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:48,679
local this anarchist which was hopping from the neo fascist

789
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:54,519
to the anarchist to the leftist by the name of

790
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,679
I believe his name is Merlin Mary Linda Lindo. And

791
00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:06,719
now Marilando claims that he was not a neo fascist,

792
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,000
he was not a part of that, but he belonged

793
00:56:10,039 --> 00:56:14,480
to the same neo the same anarchist faction that this

794
00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:17,679
particular anarchist that got thrown out of the window in

795
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:24,360
during due to interrogation. Now, of course, like Freda was

796
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:29,880
was was brought in for questioning and tried, and I

797
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,679
believe it was he in his entire sentence. They never

798
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:38,360
proved that Freda was responsible for the Piazza Fontana, largely

799
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,519
because they couldn't match the detonator that he used and

800
00:56:41,639 --> 00:56:43,960
the sort of German leather that he used for the

801
00:56:44,039 --> 00:56:48,440
bombs that was throughout you know, Padua at the time

802
00:56:48,639 --> 00:56:53,079
or Milan. They couldn't like match up, you know, any

803
00:56:53,119 --> 00:56:55,920
of these factors. And he claimed, of course there was

804
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:02,960
a particular Algerian that gave him the Debton. But what's

805
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,159
interesting about Freda is, you know, Freda sort of shows

806
00:57:06,199 --> 00:57:08,920
that there was collusion with the State department. In the

807
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,840
State Department locked his you know, he locked the whole

808
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,519
information in kind of a box of security box to

809
00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:18,599
where he could get to to prove that he was

810
00:57:18,679 --> 00:57:25,480
colluding with like state actors. But nevertheless, nineteen sixty nine

811
00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:29,159
sent kind of chills down you know, Italian spine. It

812
00:57:29,239 --> 00:57:31,920
sent chills down their spine because like, oh, I think

813
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:36,639
over fourteen people died, eighty eight people were injured in

814
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,559
the entire blast. And while there had been like violence

815
00:57:40,599 --> 00:57:44,840
and coups and especially left his violence in the north,

816
00:57:46,039 --> 00:57:50,639
you know, in the factories and kidnappings, this was probably

817
00:57:51,679 --> 00:57:53,960
the incident and the turning point in the years of lead.

818
00:57:54,079 --> 00:57:57,039
This is what really kicked off the year's lad and

819
00:57:57,119 --> 00:58:00,760
this this also inspired, didn't two are a lot of

820
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,599
leftists from from also practicing sort of their extremism. The

821
00:58:05,679 --> 00:58:09,519
leftist section were motivated by this. The Red Brigade were

822
00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:13,480
just gaining you know steam at this time, which was

823
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:18,519
founded in a university coincidentally in the same area of

824
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:27,320
trent Trento by Renato krush Karushi and also Margharita. Forgive

825
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:34,159
me if I'm mispronouncing Margharita Cagol, Yes, Cagol. They founded

826
00:58:34,159 --> 00:58:37,400
the Red Army faction around in you know, nineteen seventy.

827
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,079
Speaker 1: But by the way, h Corzio, he's still alive too.

828
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,599
Who's that Renato Cortio. He's still alive too.

829
00:58:44,599 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 2: Oh he's in prison. Yes, what an interesting story he has, though,

830
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,800
What an interesting story. I would even like to talk

831
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,159
to him if I could speak Italian proficiently. I mean,

832
00:58:54,199 --> 00:58:59,039
the things he would probably tell me, because like I said, Uh,

833
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:03,320
some of the interesting fact facts about the Rebrogade is,

834
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,719
you know they had they had so many people that

835
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:11,719
were infiltrating them at the time. You know, they had

836
00:59:11,719 --> 00:59:13,679
so many people that were influenced. I think this sort

837
00:59:13,679 --> 00:59:17,880
of applies to our scene now, is there's all these

838
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,519
groups style that you know, people call them FEDS, they

839
00:59:20,519 --> 00:59:24,039
call like Patriot Front FEDS, they call you know, each

840
00:59:24,039 --> 00:59:27,800
other online feds. They they had this sort of discourse

841
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,119
to where there's like suspicion of everybody, and maybe that's justified.

842
00:59:32,079 --> 00:59:34,519
But the Italians at the time were no different. They

843
00:59:34,519 --> 00:59:39,039
were suspicious of everybody and everybody that was in their group.

844
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,920
So I think the other person that founded the Red

845
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:52,159
the Red Brigade was a guy named Francissi. Francissi I

846
00:59:52,159 --> 00:59:54,119
think it was his name. He was like one of

847
00:59:54,119 --> 01:00:01,880
the earlier founders along with cagoul And and Renato Carucci,

848
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:09,360
and he he largely suspected there was this earlier adopter

849
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,320
of like the Red Brigade of and he quickly after

850
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:18,679
joining the Red Brigade decided to defect, defect to you know,

851
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,559
this was around the time when they were capturing, they

852
01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:25,920
were kidnapping and capturing sort of magistrates and then we're

853
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,920
starting to get a little bit more violent. He defected

854
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:34,559
to France and he started this particular study, the school

855
01:00:34,599 --> 01:00:39,480
called the Hyperion Language School, which sort of was the

856
01:00:39,599 --> 01:00:42,639
leftist counterpart to the agenta press that I mentioned about

857
01:00:42,639 --> 01:00:49,239
Stefano de la Chiai. And this has just been one

858
01:00:49,239 --> 01:00:53,000
conspiracy theory after another when it comes to Italian politics.

859
01:00:53,519 --> 01:00:56,840
No one could ever decide if you know, there was

860
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,039
a type of there was a type of infiltration in

861
01:01:02,039 --> 01:01:05,039
the Red Brigade. But there is no doubt that there

862
01:01:05,199 --> 01:01:07,960
was infiltration. You know, there was infiltration. I mean, I

863
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,840
guess that that's a dilemma that you sort of have

864
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,159
if you are an open sort of group and you

865
01:01:14,239 --> 01:01:17,039
are a terrorist group at that and even if you

866
01:01:17,119 --> 01:01:21,079
are like you know, practicing the cell system, which they

867
01:01:21,079 --> 01:01:25,159
were doing in various these different cities they were in

868
01:01:25,199 --> 01:01:28,079
the Italian north, they were doing, you still couldn't stop

869
01:01:28,239 --> 01:01:33,039
sort of federal infiltration. And there was like in nineteen

870
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:39,559
nineteen seventy two, there was this person that infiltrated their

871
01:01:39,679 --> 01:01:45,920
cell and they started they had to go underground because

872
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,800
a lot of their people were were getting locked up,

873
01:01:49,679 --> 01:01:51,400
a lot of their people were getting a sort of

874
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:54,440
thrown in jail. And then and then what's unique about

875
01:01:54,519 --> 01:01:57,119
you know, Italy is that it doesn't it didn't matter

876
01:01:57,119 --> 01:02:01,199
if like you know, dissonance are people that were in

877
01:02:01,239 --> 01:02:04,360
these extreme you know, political groups were getting locked up.

878
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:10,199
They were seen in prison as heroes. The people in

879
01:02:10,199 --> 01:02:13,159
prison sort of saw them as heroes. And the prison

880
01:02:13,239 --> 01:02:15,760
at the time was so lax. It was so lax.

881
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,760
There wasn't much infrastructure in keeping people in prison. So

882
01:02:20,559 --> 01:02:26,320
literally literally in the Red Brigade, there were the leader Ranato,

883
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,719
he got locked He got like he got locked up

884
01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:33,559
by the largely by the work of a guy named Dchasia.

885
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,599
D Chasia again, forgive me if I'm mispronouncing that name,

886
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:43,119
but this was a guy who was sort of battle

887
01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:47,320
hardened by his dealing with the mafia and Sicily, and

888
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,119
they decided to hire him to try to get rid

889
01:02:50,119 --> 01:02:52,960
of the minace. What the Italian States saw was the

890
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,960
minnesot the Red Brigade, and this guy sort of utilized

891
01:02:57,079 --> 01:03:02,880
all the latest innovation of surveillance. Uh, he had everything,

892
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,320
he had, he had everything to surveil the Red Brigade.

893
01:03:06,199 --> 01:03:08,880
He you know, he would wire he'd wire tap, he'd

894
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:13,679
say informants, and yeah, he's the one responsible for putting

895
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:19,400
krushi and jail. He's the one pro largely responsible for

896
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:23,039
disbanding that. Of course, it didn't disband the Red Brigade

897
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:29,239
because the Maria Margherita cagoul was able along with the

898
01:03:29,239 --> 01:03:31,559
Red Brigade to bust him out of out of prison.

899
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:34,840
And the funny thing is is that while they were

900
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,800
in prison they were recruiting new people. They were just

901
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,480
getting adherents h left after rights, and they didn't have

902
01:03:42,559 --> 01:03:45,079
a problem with like recruiting the people they was. It

903
01:03:45,159 --> 01:03:48,679
was very popular. That's another central feature of like the

904
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:53,519
Red Brigade is people don't understand and TIFA isn't very popular,

905
01:03:54,480 --> 01:04:00,159
but in in Italy it's it was very popular. The

906
01:04:00,159 --> 01:04:05,239
the Rebrigade was extremely popular, and the neo fascist counterparts

907
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:09,440
as well were very popular too. They weren't. I mean,

908
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,599
people had this notion that people into like fascism or

909
01:04:13,679 --> 01:04:16,280
national socialists are sort of from the margins, in the

910
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:21,480
lowest tiers of society. Well, in this case, the neo

911
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,719
fascists were recruiting from universities. The extreme left were recruiting

912
01:04:25,719 --> 01:04:28,960
from universities. Freida himself was a lawyer and a well

913
01:04:29,119 --> 01:04:35,360
educated man. He was not like a peasant. So the

914
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,199
leadership at least and even though they did draw from

915
01:04:38,239 --> 01:04:41,320
a largely working class and even peasants on both sides.

916
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:50,159
The sort of like leading figureheads of all these factions

917
01:04:50,199 --> 01:04:52,159
were largely educated. They were not.

918
01:04:53,159 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: Ronaldo graduated, got a scholarship to the Institute of Sociology.

919
01:05:01,159 --> 01:05:03,320
Oh and just and I know this is this one's

920
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:07,519
easy to forget. Renado was released from prison in nineteen

921
01:05:07,559 --> 01:05:11,880
ninety eight. Oh was he? He's he's been free, know that. Yeah,

922
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,440
he's been free since nineteen ninety eight. He actually started

923
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:19,400
a publishing company and started publishing leftist literature while he

924
01:05:19,519 --> 01:05:20,159
was in prison.

925
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 2: Really yeah, I mean he also was like reading books

926
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,119
on explosives when they actually busted him out, when they

927
01:05:27,119 --> 01:05:30,960
busted him out, when Margherita Kagoule busted him out of prison,

928
01:05:31,239 --> 01:05:34,480
he was actually reading. He was right there reading, you know,

929
01:05:34,559 --> 01:05:41,440
explosive manuals. In Marguerita Kagoule, she she wasn't so fortunate.

930
01:05:41,559 --> 01:05:45,880
She got killed, I believe in nineteen seventy seventy five.

931
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,440
I believe she got killed then by by nineteen seventy five. Now,

932
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:54,480
let me discuss an interesting character. And I think a

933
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:56,639
lot of people should probably take heed to this that

934
01:05:56,679 --> 01:06:03,239
are activist about the whole notion of filtration into groups.

935
01:06:03,239 --> 01:06:05,719
Whether you're an extremist group or whether you're you know, whatever,

936
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:08,639
if I don't by the way, I don't endorse any

937
01:06:08,679 --> 01:06:11,480
kind of violence, a disavowal, but if you're like just

938
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,360
an average sort of like you know group in America

939
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,360
and the American system, because they are for what I've

940
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:22,239
seen a lot of these security think tanks such as

941
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:27,920
Track and others. They are utilizing data they've extrapolated from

942
01:06:28,159 --> 01:06:32,760
the years of lead and tracking different groups, not even

943
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:36,679
extremist groups, but just far right groups. I'm sure they

944
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:38,679
do it to the far left more so, but it

945
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,079
seems like, you know, conversely, in America, the far right,

946
01:06:42,159 --> 01:06:44,599
the far left is probably given it more of a

947
01:06:44,639 --> 01:06:46,880
free ride, just like they were kind of in Italy.

948
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,920
There is like typically more favoritism I think, to the

949
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,400
FBI and to intelligence agencies, probably to you know, people

950
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,039
like antifa or leftists. Maybe because they don't they see

951
01:06:56,039 --> 01:07:01,719
them as harmless. I don't know, but they definitely were not.

952
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,239
I will say the left in America is nothing like

953
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,320
the Red Brigade. They are nothing like the Red Brigade.

954
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,960
You may not like their ideology or their politics, but

955
01:07:11,119 --> 01:07:14,199
largely they were about their practice. They were they knew

956
01:07:14,199 --> 01:07:18,800
their practice inside and out, and they didn't mine destroying

957
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,480
the system to try to implement a sort of Marxist

958
01:07:21,519 --> 01:07:26,159
lenin estate. They they didn't want anything to do with Americanism.

959
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,679
And this is one of the differences I've seen with

960
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,880
the Italian left is and and sort of the European

961
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,800
left is they are more traditional. You know, we you

962
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,440
discussed the Spanish Civil War and just to you know,

963
01:07:39,519 --> 01:07:43,039
contrast those two things, is they anarchists in the Spanish

964
01:07:43,079 --> 01:07:47,719
Civil War largely were going around desecrating, you know, holy relics,

965
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,679
like they were desecrating and I believe, digging up you know, priests,

966
01:07:51,679 --> 01:07:54,679
and they were destroying like churches, they were defecating. And

967
01:07:54,719 --> 01:07:57,199
this was also a pretty common I think even in

968
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:01,280
Romania there were these like communists that were doing that,

969
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:07,519
desecrating sacred you know, sacred sort of items. They didn't

970
01:08:07,519 --> 01:08:11,400
do this in amongst the the Red Brigade. The Reprigade

971
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:17,399
actually structured their practice through Catholicism. They actually structured a

972
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:21,239
lot of their practice and a lot of their early adherents,

973
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:26,560
a lot of their converts were Catholics, even though and

974
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,359
I wouldn't even say they were secular. I wouldn't say

975
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:32,479
they were secular materialists like a lot of Marxist Leninists were.

976
01:08:33,239 --> 01:08:36,520
You know, they probably weren't the most adherent Catholics, but

977
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:42,880
they were definitely not averse to, you know, religion. That's

978
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,359
one of the contrasting things I've seen with like the

979
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,680
left in Italy. And they also wanted their sort of

980
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,880
Marxist Leninist expression to be provincial, meaning they wanted to

981
01:08:54,199 --> 01:09:00,000
remain and confined to Italy itself and not to expand international.

982
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,880
They did sort of pay lip service to a lot

983
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,239
of deliberation movements around the time, a lot of the

984
01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:10,319
anti colonialists at the time, a lot to other uh

985
01:09:10,399 --> 01:09:14,199
sort of Marxist Leninist factions you know in communist states,

986
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,520
but nevertheless, they really didn't care about those. They only

987
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:23,319
wanted you know, Italy itself to adopt Marxist Leninist as

988
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:27,399
that you know, probably the dictatorship of the proletariat. The

989
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:29,680
other central feature I will say of like the left

990
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:34,319
is they had intellectual vanguards. They had people like Anthony Nigri,

991
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,119
who was outside of like Marx, considered to be probably

992
01:09:40,159 --> 01:09:45,479
one of the most premier Marxist scholars, and many people

993
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:52,000
actually thought that Anthony Nigri was part of the kidnapping

994
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,520
of Aldo Moro. You know, they they actually thought he

995
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:58,760
was instrumental. And he openly advocated in most of his

996
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:06,000
publications that in order to bring about a Marxist Leninist

997
01:10:07,199 --> 01:10:09,800
uh you know, republic, and they they kind of wanted

998
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:12,640
their own republic, They wanted to make the North sort

999
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:18,279
of their Marxist Leninist republic. That you had to strike

1000
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:25,079
down the state through violence, through armed revolution. And as

1001
01:10:25,159 --> 01:10:27,079
a matter of fact, I find it interesting that they

1002
01:10:27,079 --> 01:10:33,520
sort of utilized, you know, Catholicism and I believe liberation theology.

1003
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,279
They used that as a means to justify a lot

1004
01:10:36,279 --> 01:10:39,640
of their a lot of their violent acts. You read

1005
01:10:40,319 --> 01:10:42,880
a lot of like you know, Red Brigade stuff. They

1006
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,359
had this fervor about them to where they were religious.

1007
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:49,560
They were almost apocalyptic, they were, uh they had they

1008
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:52,479
were practicing this sort of milleninary and sort of Christianity,

1009
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,880
and you know, they they were integrating this with Marxist

1010
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,880
Leninist and uh this I think the SOM's Anthony Negri.

1011
01:11:00,359 --> 01:11:02,960
Now Anthony Nagri of course was let off. He was

1012
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:07,800
he was not convicted of the Aldo Moro kidnapping and

1013
01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:12,880
he guess what, like most Red Brigade, he went to France.

1014
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,520
There again it highlights another like conspiracy.

1015
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 1: Theory Anton and teaching right alongside and Fuco And yes.

1016
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, isn't that isn't that interesting? Isn't it interesting?

1017
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:34,239
He did eventually go back to Italy and decided to uh,

1018
01:11:34,399 --> 01:11:36,399
you know, he decided to like serve out the rest

1019
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:39,479
of his remainder of his sentence and in Italy and

1020
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:43,680
he's remained like free to this day. But you know,

1021
01:11:44,159 --> 01:11:45,920
that leads a lot of I think a lot to

1022
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:47,680
a lot of people in Italy. That leads a lot

1023
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:51,439
of credence to the Hyperion schools. Might be might mean

1024
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:57,680
more valid as sort of covers for you know, political

1025
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:02,079
extremism and political violence. Because it was also ledge that Carlos,

1026
01:12:02,119 --> 01:12:06,439
the Jacko, Plo, the r A F they were all

1027
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:12,039
getting trained at the Hyperion schools. There was this like networking,

1028
01:12:12,199 --> 01:12:16,000
just like there was networking with the extreme rights and

1029
01:12:16,039 --> 01:12:20,600
the fascist the neo fascist which Stefano de la Chiai

1030
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:24,720
that I mentioned earlier utilized himself to escape a lot

1031
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:29,399
of the investigations into the terrorist plots. And according the

1032
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:35,600
Bologna Bologna bombings, which were probably the most devastating out

1033
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:39,279
of all of the terrorists in bombings and bombing attacks.

1034
01:12:40,319 --> 01:12:42,840
He was able to like you know, be spirited away

1035
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,520
somehow to Latin America into places, you know, I believe

1036
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:52,039
in Bolivia. Uh, he set roots in Bolivia. And that's

1037
01:12:52,159 --> 01:12:54,000
kind of odd that they were able to like, you know,

1038
01:12:54,079 --> 01:12:58,600
transverse all across you know, Latin America. Maybe not, maybe

1039
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,920
it wasn't so weird. But you mentioned there wasn't no

1040
01:13:02,079 --> 01:13:05,600
Fascist International. There may not have been a fashion International,

1041
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:08,560
but I think there was kind of a informal agreement

1042
01:13:10,239 --> 01:13:14,720
amongst the fascists and amongst the extreme right, and I.

1043
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 1: Think I think de Grel helped a lot with that.

1044
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:21,920
Oh yes, yeah, and definitely in the fifties it was

1045
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:28,960
a lot. Yeah, in the fifties, people were still scrambling

1046
01:13:29,039 --> 01:13:34,239
and you know, basically hiding. And as as the years

1047
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:38,520
went by, then there could be a little more people

1048
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:43,279
coming out of the shadows and coming together and doing

1049
01:13:43,279 --> 01:13:43,800
some planning.

1050
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 2: Let me mention after the Red Brigade, after they were

1051
01:13:49,319 --> 01:13:55,399
after you know, Marita cagu was was killed. This of course,

1052
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:59,720
the leadership went over to Mario Maretti. Uh, he was

1053
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:04,079
the nuts believed that was the person behind the Aldo Moro,

1054
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:10,680
you know, kept sort of kidnapping. And although Moray himself

1055
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:14,000
is sort of a he was a beloved Christian Democrat

1056
01:14:14,039 --> 01:14:19,279
figure that still strikes a lot of mystery to this

1057
01:14:19,399 --> 01:14:26,560
day amongst Italian politicians and Italian citizens. They wonder exactly

1058
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:30,359
what happened to Aldo Moro on that faithful day, you know,

1059
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:33,359
as he was kidnapped in nineteen seventy eight and later

1060
01:14:33,399 --> 01:14:37,000
found in the boot of a car in later times.

1061
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:40,600
And he left all these notes, all these notes in

1062
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:44,840
the apartment, all these notes everywhere, and he actually implicated

1063
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:48,800
I think the current the prime minister at the time

1064
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:54,920
may have been behind his killing. Now you're wondering how

1065
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,720
that he was acquitted, of course, but there was this

1066
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:03,800
other journalist by the name of Percorelli that broke this story,

1067
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:11,319
Carmine Purkle Perkoli, that broke this story into the mainstream

1068
01:15:11,399 --> 01:15:14,680
and sort of gave light to some of the political

1069
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:18,960
corruption at the time. And he was he was fingered

1070
01:15:19,199 --> 01:15:22,880
as the culprit the prime minister at the time of

1071
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:27,560
Aldol Morrow's sort of kidnapping. And what's interesting about Aldol

1072
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:31,359
Morow is what made him such a controversial figure is

1073
01:15:31,399 --> 01:15:37,039
he wanted to integrate the Communist Party into the into

1074
01:15:37,079 --> 01:15:40,520
the mainstream of Italian society. He wanted to integrate them

1075
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:43,680
into the Italian society. At the same time, he was

1076
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:48,279
also a big proponent of the Arabs in the Middle

1077
01:15:48,279 --> 01:15:51,520
East crisis, and he pissed off a like quite a

1078
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:55,960
bit of like Israeli and probably Massad as well. He

1079
01:15:56,399 --> 01:15:59,319
really made them angry about being taking a very pro

1080
01:15:59,399 --> 01:16:03,199
Arab stand and I can imagine, uh, he probably didn't

1081
01:16:03,199 --> 01:16:07,279
make the US intelligence too, you know, too happy about

1082
01:16:07,279 --> 01:16:11,399
that sort of geopolitical stance either, So that could that

1083
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:14,439
could be some implications about all domorrow. It is a

1084
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:17,760
really strange case. I will say that Aldomorrow is kind

1085
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,800
of a new war for if you're really into the war,

1086
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:23,039
if you're really into you know, I like to call

1087
01:16:23,079 --> 01:16:26,560
it parapolitics, even if you're into that. Although all the

1088
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:29,439
Moro case has all the trappings of JFK and it's

1089
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:33,479
it's it's very interesting, But the guy that's agreed that

1090
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:38,359
did the whole ordeal was Mario Alretty and Marrow Molreaty

1091
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:43,239
was less idealistic. I would say than Kayushi and also

1092
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:48,439
Kagoul he was a bit more less idealistic. He was

1093
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:55,680
more into violence, a little bit more into kidnapping, you know.

1094
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:58,119
And that that is like, that's saying something considering what

1095
01:16:58,159 --> 01:16:59,560
the Red Brigades were into.

1096
01:17:01,159 --> 01:17:01,319
Speaker 1: UH.

1097
01:17:02,119 --> 01:17:06,520
Speaker 2: Let me also mention that the Red Brigades ideologically modeled

1098
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:13,119
themselves off uh, the Uruguayan movements. UH. And also this

1099
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,960
the the movements that were in South America at the time.

1100
01:17:17,359 --> 01:17:20,399
One of their cherished sort of possessions was something called

1101
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:25,960
the Mini Manual of the Urban Gorilla Gorilla. This was

1102
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:30,279
a very popular pamphlet UH. And this is something they

1103
01:17:30,319 --> 01:17:35,399
modeled a lot of their kidnappings off of. And you know,

1104
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:38,720
they took a hard line, Maoist, third world this sort

1105
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:43,239
of stance into implementing a lot of their measures. But

1106
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:51,479
the Reprigade didn't. What's what's really surprising is despite jailing uh,

1107
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:54,079
the main proponent of the you know, Red Brigade and

1108
01:17:54,199 --> 01:17:58,600
killing his his his wife and lover, they still did

1109
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:02,000
not lose steam in Italy. They were they were doing

1110
01:18:02,319 --> 01:18:05,279
people were doing terrorist acts. Up until two thousand and three,

1111
01:18:06,159 --> 01:18:08,800
there was still you know, indications of the Red Brigades.

1112
01:18:09,039 --> 01:18:13,119
UH sort of terrorist acts in many of the Red Brigade.

1113
01:18:13,279 --> 01:18:17,039
After they lost a lot of their you know, they

1114
01:18:17,079 --> 01:18:21,960
lost a lot of their popularity in Italy, they fled, Oh,

1115
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,159
they all fled to France. France had this policy where

1116
01:18:25,159 --> 01:18:28,960
it would welcome a lot of former you know, leftist

1117
01:18:29,039 --> 01:18:33,319
terrorists to where they would if they you know, if

1118
01:18:33,359 --> 01:18:36,960
they renounced their their extremism and their terrorism, they could

1119
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:41,399
easily get French citizenship. I guess that kind of leads

1120
01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:46,000
more sort of ammunition to the whole Hygh period, the

1121
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:53,800
languished schools thesis that a lot of people have constructed. Yeah.

1122
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,880
Speaker 1: I mean what's interesting is, you know, even in twenty

1123
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:04,479
twenty one, there were still a France arrested seven leftist

1124
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:12,479
militants Georgio Pietro Stefani. Yeah, I mean there were This

1125
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:14,640
is still going on, there's still looking for these I mean.

1126
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:18,079
The thing is is that it's in such recent history

1127
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,199
that a lot of these people are just still alive.

1128
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 2: And CHIAI was the neo fascist terrorist idealogue, was actually

1129
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:30,920
still alive until twenty nineteen. Yeah, and you know you

1130
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:33,479
could probably even like talk to him. And that's the

1131
01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:35,920
thing about it. CHIAII was never fingered for any of

1132
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:40,279
the terrorist incidents at all, because he was rather elusive

1133
01:19:40,279 --> 01:19:43,079
when he gave interviews and probably had a lot of

1134
01:19:43,079 --> 01:19:46,560
the state protection as well a VI through the Agenter

1135
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:48,319
press and through the Black Orchestra.

1136
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:50,279
Speaker 1: Well, he did a lot of He also did a

1137
01:19:50,319 --> 01:19:52,640
lot of business in South America, so he spent time

1138
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:53,159
down there.

1139
01:19:53,319 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, there actually is a point of his life in

1140
01:19:56,079 --> 01:19:58,960
seventy five to seventy seven that's like unaccounted for that

1141
01:19:59,359 --> 01:20:02,159
we don't knowing that that leads up to the Bologna

1142
01:20:02,199 --> 01:20:08,720
train bombing. And and what's interesting is that the second generation.

1143
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,520
Speaker 1: The craziest thing about the craziest thing about that bombing

1144
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:14,640
is is that up until that point, that the few

1145
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:18,359
years before, I mean you had the assassinator, that kidnapping,

1146
01:20:18,359 --> 01:20:26,000
an assassination of all Tomorrow, but it was just basically assassinations, assassinations, assassinations, assassinations,

1147
01:20:25,119 --> 01:20:29,119
and they were everyone was just asleep and then all

1148
01:20:29,119 --> 01:20:30,319
of a sudden, just boom.

1149
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 2: And it's because the Aldolmorrow kidnapping really open their eyes.

1150
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:38,359
The Piazza Fontana bombing was important, I think to Italy,

1151
01:20:38,399 --> 01:20:41,279
but it was like such there was such distance between

1152
01:20:41,319 --> 01:20:44,239
the two but they started to pay attention when a

1153
01:20:44,359 --> 01:20:49,680
very prominent and beloved elected official started getting kidnapped and

1154
01:20:50,359 --> 01:20:53,159
ended up killed. And you know what's weird about the

1155
01:20:53,159 --> 01:20:55,960
Aldo Moro kiss. And I'm going to go here in

1156
01:20:56,079 --> 01:21:01,159
speculative territory. I'm sorry if like, if I sound the

1157
01:21:01,279 --> 01:21:03,960
I'm not trying to sound schizoid here, but this was actually,

1158
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:09,159
this is actually practiced in like Italy itself, amongst the politicians,

1159
01:21:09,239 --> 01:21:13,520
supposedly amongst the educated politicians. They tried when he was missing,

1160
01:21:14,079 --> 01:21:17,359
they tried to do a seance to find out where

1161
01:21:17,399 --> 01:21:22,079
he was. I kid you not. And a prominent Italian

1162
01:21:22,079 --> 01:21:26,319
investigator and now politician, he tried to do a seance

1163
01:21:26,399 --> 01:21:32,800
to summon the spirit of Aldo Moro. That was something

1164
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:36,199
that really happened on the Congressional War.

1165
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:40,600
Speaker 1: That's nineteen seventy eight people.

1166
01:21:40,399 --> 01:21:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen seventy eight. That was going on in Italian politics.

1167
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:49,119
That's crazy. That's probably one of the most craziest things

1168
01:21:49,119 --> 01:21:53,600
about you know, Italian politics itself. I didn't know there

1169
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:56,239
was like some of those and it was some of

1170
01:21:56,279 --> 01:22:00,000
that superstition that was in Italian politics.

1171
01:22:01,279 --> 01:22:04,359
Speaker 1: Well, let's well talk about the Bologna massacre and then

1172
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:07,359
and then we'll start wrapping up, and we'll see if

1173
01:22:07,359 --> 01:22:12,960
we can pick up pick up another time, and yeah,

1174
01:22:13,159 --> 01:22:14,000
do a little bit more.

1175
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 2: Okay. The Bologna massacre was largely a train station. It

1176
01:22:20,079 --> 01:22:23,720
was this this nexus that was going to between Rome

1177
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:26,359
and Milan. By the way, there was that was not

1178
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:29,920
the only bombing. There also was the Italicus bombings as well.

1179
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:35,159
But the people they believed was behind that, they speculated

1180
01:22:35,199 --> 01:22:37,199
for a long time that it might have been Carlos

1181
01:22:37,239 --> 01:22:40,359
the Jackal, considering it coincided with a lot of the

1182
01:22:41,359 --> 01:22:45,920
sort of violence in Rome with the PLO at the time.

1183
01:22:46,239 --> 01:22:49,319
But however, and that was decided in two thousand and

1184
01:22:49,319 --> 01:22:55,000
five by some investigators. However, it's believed that the Italian

1185
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:59,520
neo fascist group, the second generation neo fascist group called

1186
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:13,000
NAR and I'm not going to even try to pronounce that, yes, yes, Revolutionari, Yeah, yeah,

1187
01:23:13,039 --> 01:23:16,560
I just believed they were behind the culprits behind the bombing,

1188
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:20,319
and they largely were the people that were uh, they

1189
01:23:20,319 --> 01:23:24,039
were the largely the people that were isolated for you know,

1190
01:23:24,119 --> 01:23:26,640
for investigation for that it was they were I don't

1191
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:28,920
know if they were cleared or not of that bombing,

1192
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:31,880
but it was largely speculated that the guy that was

1193
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:35,039
behind that was either Stefano de la Chiai or a

1194
01:23:35,039 --> 01:23:40,000
guy named Mario Tuti or which by the way, has

1195
01:23:40,039 --> 01:23:44,880
a connection to Freda and a pro Libyan fascist group,

1196
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:48,399
which you know that there was a whole network. I

1197
01:23:48,399 --> 01:23:50,479
think that Freda and some of the people like his

1198
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:55,079
associates like Claudio Multi, they they sort of formed this

1199
01:23:55,199 --> 01:23:59,960
like pro Kadaffi sort of group. So Kadafi was dabbling

1200
01:24:00,239 --> 01:24:01,920
and sort of the left and the right at the time,

1201
01:24:02,399 --> 01:24:04,079
so it was like believe that those were the main

1202
01:24:04,079 --> 01:24:05,800
culprits in the hole Boloya bombing.

1203
01:24:07,239 --> 01:24:14,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I think initially it was Francesca Mambro

1204
01:24:14,399 --> 01:24:20,000
and Valario fier Theoreti. They got life in prison, and

1205
01:24:20,039 --> 01:24:25,359
then in twenty seventeen, in two thousand and seven they

1206
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:35,560
confirmed the They looked at Luigi u Ardini and who

1207
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:38,760
had close ties to turns up. This is one that

1208
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:42,399
I have trouble pronouncing. Posizione.

1209
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:46,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, third position, the third position, Yeah.

1210
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 1: Third position. And he got thirty years thirty years in

1211
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:52,520
prison for that one.

1212
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 2: And one more thing before we wrap it up, I

1213
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:57,439
want to mention that. And this is like for further

1214
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:00,479
maybe for a further show. But there was a particular

1215
01:25:01,359 --> 01:25:06,039
Roman crime syndicate and if people are not familiar, Roman

1216
01:25:06,079 --> 01:25:07,640
is sort of the way it's structured. It has these

1217
01:25:08,359 --> 01:25:11,359
these different sort of gangs in its city, and I

1218
01:25:11,359 --> 01:25:17,000
think it was called the Bonda. The Bonda were largely

1219
01:25:17,399 --> 01:25:22,079
considered responsible also potentially for the bombings as well, and

1220
01:25:22,119 --> 01:25:25,560
they also tried to implicate them potentially in the Oldo

1221
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:30,960
Moro kidnapping because they actually knew the guy who was

1222
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:33,520
the leader of the Bonda in Rome actually knew where

1223
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:38,279
Aldo Moro was and tried to contact the Italian authorities,

1224
01:25:38,319 --> 01:25:42,439
but they disregarded his tip and which I said I

1225
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:45,880
mentioned earlier, it's it's not an unusual function in you know,

1226
01:25:46,039 --> 01:25:48,319
Italian politics to kind of use the underworld.

1227
01:25:49,039 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean in the future, I mean I

1228
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:57,760
think we could do a dedicated episode propaganda do Yeah.

1229
01:25:57,600 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 2: I'd like to. I didn't mention that, but there's a

1230
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:01,520
lot into that. I didn't know if you wanted me

1231
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:03,960
to go into like conspiracy territory, but yeah, I'd love

1232
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:04,319
to do that.

1233
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, is it really conspiracy territory?

1234
01:26:09,039 --> 01:26:11,279
Speaker 2: Not really, but I mean there's some people that consider

1235
01:26:11,319 --> 01:26:15,640
it to be speculative, sure, but they consider Glaudio to

1236
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:18,840
be speculative, even though there's like there's the wes Moore papers,

1237
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,399
there's a lot of evidence that it's it did exist.

1238
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:26,399
Oh man, Well, before I go off your peed, let

1239
01:26:26,399 --> 01:26:28,079
me ask you why why do you think people in

1240
01:26:28,159 --> 01:26:31,680
our MILIU don't like to tackle Gladio Because whenever I

1241
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:34,640
bring it up, there's there's a lot of trepidation that

1242
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:37,960
is met in you know, in this millium about Gladio.

1243
01:26:38,239 --> 01:26:39,520
What do you think they dislike it?

1244
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, having maybe having some kind of sympathy

1245
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:49,760
for sympathy for it, so they don't want to get it.

1246
01:26:52,079 --> 01:26:54,680
Nobody wants to believe that, you know, people that they

1247
01:26:54,760 --> 01:27:03,600
may have had a yeah, may have leaned towards, you know,

1248
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:08,760
given a choice, was operating and being controlled by you know,

1249
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:13,880
the West, by the the CIA, which you know, I

1250
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,600
mean we basically know who controls the CIA.

1251
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:20,560
Speaker 2: So I want to say, also, this doesn't implicate you know,

1252
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:24,159
neo fascism or implicate national socialist that if that's your

1253
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:29,439
particular practice and that's your political expression, I will say

1254
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:32,439
that it does sort of show that fascism and national

1255
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:36,640
socialism probably until it has a proper rejuvenation in society

1256
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:39,800
is largely a corpse that, in my opinion, was used

1257
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:43,479
by the CIA and used by the US. The US,

1258
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:46,159
you know, they're also like the Italian even the State Department.

1259
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:49,000
It shows kind of that it was dead ideologically. But

1260
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:53,000
I mean, I don't want to never mind, I'm not

1261
01:27:53,079 --> 01:27:54,560
going to say what I'm gonna say.

1262
01:27:56,279 --> 01:27:59,920
Speaker 1: Well, there were people who tried to keep it alive, Yaki. Yeah,

1263
01:28:00,039 --> 01:28:02,039
you have to try to keep it alive, and you

1264
01:28:02,079 --> 01:28:07,239
know it just uh, yeah, it was just too much.

1265
01:28:07,319 --> 01:28:10,680
You know what Thomas calls the Nuremberg regime. I mean

1266
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:19,079
we you know, we still normy Khan conservatives suffer when

1267
01:28:19,119 --> 01:28:22,000
they say something just a little bit right, when they

1268
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:25,000
get they get shot down. So and that's how that's

1269
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:29,199
how far it's gone. Yeah, it's kind of uh, that's

1270
01:28:29,199 --> 01:28:33,560
a yeah, that's one hundred pounds.

1271
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:35,760
Speaker 2: That's it's a fifth rail.

1272
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:38,399
Speaker 1: It's a fifth well, it's you know, it's it's also

1273
01:28:39,239 --> 01:28:42,119
right now, it seems like an impossibility to even uh,

1274
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:45,039
you know, to challenge or to even just.

1275
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 2: I mean, why couldn't they do it again? My question

1276
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:49,760
is about Gladio and all this, and I'll let you go,

1277
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:52,119
but why couldn't they do it again in places like Ukraine?

1278
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:54,239
Like I have been met with a lot of like

1279
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:58,640
scoring because I said that potentially there, you know, Ukraine

1280
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:01,319
could be another Gladio No two point oh or three

1281
01:29:01,319 --> 01:29:04,880
point oh, depending on how many do you believe there

1282
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:07,039
really are speculation.

1283
01:29:07,399 --> 01:29:10,479
Speaker 1: I wouldn't worry too much about scorn. What is scorn.

1284
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:14,800
Scorn is what people people in the comments on Odyssey

1285
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:16,760
and bit Shoot, yeah.

1286
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:20,600
Speaker 2: They think I'm crazy for just even suggesting that as possibility.

1287
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:27,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, okay, yeah, whatever. They're so smart. They're

1288
01:29:27,199 --> 01:29:30,399
so smart. It's like I said, I've said this before,

1289
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:34,760
the comments on your videos. That's where intellect goes to die.

1290
01:29:38,199 --> 01:29:43,039
It's everybody. It's all the you know, it's it's all

1291
01:29:43,079 --> 01:29:46,840
the people who are sitting out there and you know,

1292
01:29:47,039 --> 01:29:50,119
just it's like the fans, the fans at are sports,

1293
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:54,359
you know, watching a sporting event, screaming at the screaming

1294
01:29:54,359 --> 01:29:56,119
at the athletes and saying, oh I could do it

1295
01:29:56,159 --> 01:29:59,479
better and everything. Okay, well, sure, let's see you do

1296
01:29:59,520 --> 01:30:03,520
it Monday morning quarterbacks. Yeah, let's see it. But tell

1297
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:06,880
people how they can find your work deep down there

1298
01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:08,039
in the recesses of.

1299
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 2: Okay, first of all, I want to thank Pete for

1300
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:15,000
bringing me on to to a show to discuss the

1301
01:30:15,079 --> 01:30:18,399
years of LAD. I enjoyed this discussion. I love discussing

1302
01:30:18,399 --> 01:30:21,359
this topic. If there's anybody else out there that wants

1303
01:30:21,359 --> 01:30:25,319
to discuss this topic with me, I'm free. Uh it's

1304
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:29,439
my My podcast is Surviving by America, which I will

1305
01:30:29,479 --> 01:30:32,520
admit it, it's not the most polished podcast. It's it's

1306
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:35,760
at times, you know, I've had to like work with

1307
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:37,720
what I have in terms of guests and in terms

1308
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:41,560
of technical uh you know, in terms of like technical

1309
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:44,760
sort of ability. Let's just say not on my part,

1310
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:47,520
but I'm part of like the you know, the the

1311
01:30:47,560 --> 01:30:53,399
YouTube and due to my limited resources. But yes, nevertheless,

1312
01:30:53,800 --> 01:30:57,680
I kind of like the low scale production because it

1313
01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:01,960
does show a certain authenticity. It harkens back to sort

1314
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:06,520
of like the Raid of the Pirate radio days. And nevertheless,

1315
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:09,439
you can find me at Surviving by America on Odyssey,

1316
01:31:10,159 --> 01:31:13,960
on bit shoot and also on YouTube as well, and

1317
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:17,560
hopefully people will put my uh YouTube in the descriptor.

1318
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:21,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you just send me whatever lengths you want

1319
01:31:21,239 --> 01:31:23,439
me to to include, and I'll include and when I

1320
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:23,960
release this.

1321
01:31:24,399 --> 01:31:26,279
Speaker 2: And again I want to thank Pete for giving me

1322
01:31:26,359 --> 01:31:28,439
a chance to speak on uh, you know, Years of Led,

1323
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:30,600
one of my one of my favorite subjects because it

1324
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:35,439
has so much i think relevance to the political terrain

1325
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:37,840
we're going into in the modern era.

1326
01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: It's also very European. I mean, it's it really shines

1327
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:49,640
a light on European politics, on the fact that right wing,

1328
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:53,319
right wing and left wing are different in Europe from

1329
01:31:53,359 --> 01:31:55,039
whatever you know, we want to call it. I mean,

1330
01:31:55,079 --> 01:32:02,199
there's just it really shows that you know that mhm, yeah, language,

1331
01:32:03,119 --> 01:32:10,079
language and labels, their inter they're interchangeable, and they're they

1332
01:32:10,119 --> 01:32:12,279
mean different things in different parts of the world.

1333
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:14,279
Speaker 2: Yep, there's a lot more nuanced in Europe.

1334
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 1: I can tell you that, that's for sure. Thanks Patrick,

1335
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:18,760
thank you, thank you, Pete.