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Join today and play 18 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:53.719 for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices. 19 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:56.560 Jump chumpacasino dot com. 20 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:57.600 Nobrid's necessary Weight. 21 00:00:57.640 --> 00:00:59.600 We're promitted by eighteen plus terms and conditions of Plice 22 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:01.119 Webster loop. 23 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.760 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 24 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.879 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:25.560 written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 26 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.560 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 27 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:33.599 killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host, 28 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.480 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 29 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:49.920 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 30 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.159 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 31 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:56.840 history and the authors that have written about them. When 32 00:01:56.879 --> 00:02:01.439 filming his TV series Race Relations On, Saffran spent an 33 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:04.680 uneasy couple of days with one of Mississippi's most notorious 34 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.439 white supremacists. A year later, he heard that the man 35 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:11.759 had been murdered, and what was more, the killer was black. 36 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:14.840 At first, the murder seemed to twist on the old 37 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:18.680 deep self race crimes, but then more news rolled in. 38 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:22.599 Maybe it was a dispute over money or, most intriguingly, 39 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:28.560 over sex. Could the infamous racist actually have been secretly 40 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:43.560 pardon me? At first, the murder seemed to twist on 41 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:45.879 the old deep self race crimes, but then more news 42 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:48.719 rolled in. Maybe it was a dispute over money, or, 43 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:52.560 most intriguingly, over sex. Could the infamous racist actually have 44 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:55.759 been secretly gay with a thing for black men? Did 45 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:59.159 Saffran have the last footage of him alive. Could this 46 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.759 be the story of a life time? Seizing his Truman 47 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:04.400 Capote moment, he jumped on a plane to cover the trial. 48 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:09.639 Over six months, Saffran got deeper and deeper into the South, 49 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.479 becoming entwined in the lives of those connected with the murder, 50 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:18.680 white separatists, black campaigners, lawyers, investigators, neighbors, even the killer himself. 51 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.240 And the more he talked with them, the less simple 52 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:25.840 the crime and the world seemed. The book is Murder 53 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:31.360 in Mississippi And with my special guest, John, author and 54 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.800 documentary filmmaker John Saffran. Welcome to the program, and thank 55 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:41.120 you for agreeing to this interview. John Saffran, thank you 56 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:45.280 very much. Leave me John fine, Thank you fine, thank you, 57 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:48.759 thank you very much for this interview. 58 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:53.719 I think we're a bit out of sync, but we'll 59 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:55.479 be able to figure that out. I guess we'll just 60 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:59.360 leave death after our sentences or something. But I'm very 61 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.000 on your show. I listened to your show a loss, 62 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:05.759 and your show directed me to all the true crime 63 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:07.879 writers that helped me a loss with writing my true 64 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:10.280 crime books. So I really appreciate it. 65 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:12.919 Well, thank you very much, and it was an honor 66 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.639 to be on your program and the special sixth part 67 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:20.279 six author sixth part true crime series that aired on 68 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:24.839 the ABC this summer. Was fantastic to be on that 69 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:29.959 program with you. So that was a great honor. Exert 70 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.079 He's got some children running around, don't you. 71 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:35.839 Yeah, I'm trying to get into a quiet place. But 72 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:38.560 you know, maybe this is good atmosphere. You know how 73 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.160 I say, like sometime's right, the ice sounds good when 74 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:44.160 you know there's a bit of noise in the background, 75 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:47.040 like the same alive or something. Sure. 76 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.279 Congratulations on the book, by the way, this is a 77 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:53.959 one wild tale. Maybe you can tell our audience to 78 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:56.000 give up like you very much do in the book. 79 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:58.399 And I think it's very important, obviously, because you are 80 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.040 integral part of this story and you've put yourself inside 81 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:06.360 this story and rightfully self. Tell us about your background 82 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.639 and so we can understand how you came to this 83 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.519 story in particular. But tell us about your background in 84 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:17.240 Australia and on Australia and the kinds of documentaries, the 85 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.000 kind of filmmaker that you are, the kind of journalism 86 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.519 that you have done. Tell us about your background, John. 87 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.600 You know, I do documentaries that have a bit of 88 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:32.680 a twist. So I guess for international audiences something a 89 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:36.040 bit like Michael Moore or even sometimes a bit like 90 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:39.759 Sasha Baron Cohen Borat, where you go out to tell 91 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.759 a story and it is documentary, but you've got you've 92 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:44.720 got twists in them, and you try to make them 93 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:49.000 amusing too. And so I went off of filming a 94 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:53.480 TV show and I I went to Mississippi and I 95 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.519 filmed this white supremacist called Richard Barrett, and I played 96 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.680 a little trick on him that I in the book, 97 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.680 where I procure a saliva sample of him and then 98 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.399 take it to be the DNA tested. And then I 99 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.279 returned to one of his white supremacist meetings and you know, 100 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:13.279 in front of the room, you know, announced that you know, 101 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.360 he's got a bit of African DNA. And anyway, obviously 102 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:21.399 Richard Barrett, he wasn't happy with this, and he started 103 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:25.680 legal action and that had and he was a lawyer 104 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.319 as well as a white supremacist, and it was a 105 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:31.240 very clever lawyer, and he just managed to threaten my 106 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.079 TV station in a way that we just felt, well, 107 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.720 they felt compelled to not air the story. So I 108 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:39.519 just ended up on the cutting room floor. I spent 109 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.480 two days with this guy, Richard Barrett, and got to 110 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:46.279 see inside his weird secret world, but we weren't able 111 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:48.319 to use any of the footage. And that was that. 112 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:54.360 And then eleven months late, I'm just schooling around the 113 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.480 internet and Richard Barrett. I find out he's just been 114 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:02.040 killed in his house. And you know, the house and 115 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:04.839 both him were the killer tried to light them on fire. 116 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:08.160 And then the killer, a man, a young black man 117 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.800 named Vincent McGee, was caught and you know, one of 118 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:15.480 his first stories is, hey, it was self defense because 119 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:19.120 Richard Barrett, the white supremacist, tried to make sexual advances 120 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:23.199 on me. And you know, so that's been pretty wild. 121 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.279 And you know, the trial was scheduled to start soon, 122 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.279 so I just had to either jump on a plane 123 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.199 and cover it or not. And you know, there wasn't 124 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.319 really enough time to think or do anything, or try 125 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:38.560 to get together a TV production or anything. So just 126 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:40.879 ye had jumped on a plane with my dictaphone and 127 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.680 my notepad and then ended up spending six months in 128 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:45.079 Mississippi following the case. 129 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:51.600 Now, was your original intention just in realizing that when 130 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.079 you were searching the internet that because you do have 131 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.199 a conversation with the guys that you were involved with 132 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:59.680 that had been involved with the filming of Richard Barrett 133 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:04.360 and when he was murdered, you guys had a conversation like, well, 134 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:06.920 now we can use this footage, can't we? And so 135 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.240 did you jump on that plane with the plan to 136 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.399 write a book or did you jump on the plane 137 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:13.759 just to follow up that story. 138 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:20.199 No, definitely to write a book, because yeah, as I said, 139 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.240 it's quite exhausting getting a production up, like a film 140 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.839 or a television production up. I mean, unless you're just 141 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:30.079 going to run off and shoot it yourself. So I 142 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.960 didn't kind of want to do that. And I also 143 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.279 just felt this great freedom in kind of just being 144 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.039 able to go on my own. And when you're filming, 145 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:43.159 you have to like hustle a lot. You have to 146 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.559 like talk people into appearing on camera. And so someone 147 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.600 can have an incredible someone can have an incredible story 148 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:53.159 to tell, but as soon as you press record, suddenly 149 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:55.840 they don't want to say everything like they would, you know, 150 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:01.159 if they weren't being filmed. And then people can you know, 151 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:04.039 not be really good talent for TV. For instance, they 152 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:08.080 can be rambling too much, your lack energy or something. 153 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.720 And whilst if you interview people and put them in 154 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:15.039 a book, suddenly, as long as their story is really good, 155 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.320 you can kind of dodge around those other things and 156 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.159 sort of just not mentioned oh, by the way, this 157 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.679 guy told me this story in an excruciating, long winded 158 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:26.879 way that lacked energy, so like you just don't you 159 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.519 just don't mention that bit and you've got like a nice, 160 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.840 tight little story and so and yeah, there was a 161 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:38.679 lot of freedom and it was really refreshing, and you 162 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:42.480 also you could just spend more time. Like when I'm filming, 163 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:44.840 usually we land in a place like when we did 164 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.639 the Richard Barrett thing, the original prank, Like we just 165 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:51.000 landed there for like a day basically, and then everything 166 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:53.399 else is travel and you just have to capture everything quickly, 167 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:56.639 and you know, you can't always get to the essence 168 00:09:57.080 --> 00:10:00.799 of something, and whilst with a book I could, so yeah, 169 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:02.799 I really liked it. I also like the parameters of 170 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:09.320 writing a book because often it's good to have parameters 171 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.480 because it just kind of sets down something that you 172 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.960 can work at. So for instance, if a TV station says, oh, 173 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:20.600 you have to deliver a half hour show. It's not like, 174 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:23.399 oh damn, I wish I could do forty minutes. It's 175 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:27.039 like I wish I could do twenty minutes. It's like, okay, fine, 176 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.200 there's one thing set in place that I can work towards. 177 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.919 And sometimes, I know this sounds of extrange, because everyone 178 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:38.039 likes to creative freedom, but sometimes having parameters just you 179 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:40.960 just get on with things and you move on with them. 180 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.440 So I started reading lots of true crime books which 181 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.440 I haven't read before, and I started trying to understand 182 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:52.039 the architecture of them and how they work. And so 183 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:54.320 when I went over there, I sort of had that 184 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.519 in my head. I had these I saw what all 185 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.559 these other true crime writers did, and I tried to 186 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:03.639 follow their directions of how they found out things. And 187 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.080 it didn't always work, and that was that, And sometimes 188 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:10.039 it sort of did the opposite of work. It didn't 189 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:11.720 work at all. Like, for instance, I noticed a lot 190 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:15.399 of true crime books start up where they just explain 191 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:18.360 really simply the crime and then the rest of the 192 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.039 book is, you know, the why or how did it 193 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.120 end up there. But when I went over there, the 194 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:27.120 more I spoke to people, the more I started getting 195 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:32.240 slightly different versions of everything, and I found it really annoying, Like, 196 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:36.039 for instance, the mother of the killers, then Richard Barrett 197 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.080 pulled up on the day of the killing. He pulled 198 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.200 up in a black suv. And then you know, another 199 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:44.919 person close to the case said, oh, on the day 200 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:47.120 of the killing, Richard Barrett, he pulled up, but he 201 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.440 was riding a bicycle. And then I'm like, well, what 202 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:51.720 do I write in that chapter in the book where 203 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:53.879 I do I say he pulled up in a bicycle 204 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.159 or do I say pulled up in an suv? And 205 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.120 so yeah, things like that drove me crazy. But then 206 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:04.080 once I up back with all the all the material 207 00:12:04.279 --> 00:12:06.679 and I typed a lot of things, lots of interviews 208 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:12.120 and written lots of nights, I realized, like, all that confusion, like, 209 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.279 that's the book, and I might as well, yeah, not five, 210 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.799 It might as well just write the book about how 211 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.879 the further I got into the story, the foggy things 212 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:24.879 got right. 213 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:29.000 Yeah, for various reasons, but certainly that's what you found. 214 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.759 The more you talk to people, there more questions rather 215 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.960 than answers. Yes, so let's get back to let's get 216 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:40.200 to for our audience, that doesn't know too much about this. 217 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:43.440 You've talked about Richard Barrett. Was there in your two 218 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.000 days with Richard Barrett? Was there anything extraordinary about Richard Barrett? 219 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.840 Because I think it's you haven't really explained exactly why 220 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.799 you thought you had this real story, this story that 221 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:59.360 you could instinctively as a documentary filmmaker, you knew that 222 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.360 there was when you do have a story that's extraordinary, 223 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.039 when there's something else to be learned from this, And 224 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:08.039 what did you think and what did you believe you 225 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:10.679 might learn from this or what you might see or 226 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.399 what it might be an example of, and hence you 227 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:14.840 were interested in writing this book. 228 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.360 Well, we kind of thought we were. We thought me 229 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:21.879 and the crew when we were over there, and we 230 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:24.279 weren't particularly trying to trip him up on anything like 231 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:26.919 this or whatever, but we we thought he was a 232 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.679 big camp and we thought, oh, it's weird. He sort 233 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.320 of you know, if I had to make a guess 234 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.360 after spending two days with him, I'd be going, Oh, 235 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:38.759 he's probably gay, you know, and which is kind of weird. 236 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.879 If the guys are leading white supremacist then you know 237 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.759 that had nothing to do with what we were filming 238 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:46.440 or whatever. So we didn't really like think about it 239 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:49.639 that much, but that was that. And then so then 240 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.559 when we found out he'd been killed and one of 241 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:54.200 the versions of events was he may have made a 242 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.519 sexual advance on the black guy, I was like, Oh, 243 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:00.360 that kind of matches up with that. So I guess 244 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.480 that became an interesting part of the story for me, 245 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.879 like can you be a leading white supremacist who's like 246 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:12.960 hiding such a deep secret? And the more and the 247 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:15.399 more the more I got into the book, the more 248 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:17.440 I found out that one way into the book it 249 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:22.519 is all about secrets and how you know it's impossible 250 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.360 to get to them sometimes and Mississippi, Yeah, it's definitely. 251 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:32.360 It's definitely a place of secrets where people and I 252 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:34.799 guess that it's kind of like the opposite of a 253 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.240 lot of the modern world where everyone's just trying to 254 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.080 take a hundred photos of themselves and put them up 255 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.720 on Facebook every hour, and that's the way the world 256 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.120 is going in one way, but in another way, there's 257 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.720 still you know, lots of secrets and lots of people 258 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:52.000 trying to hide things. 259 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.120 Now, you know, I found interesting too, and it was 260 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.720 we have this in common is that our stories made 261 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.639 Stormfront and this tell us of what Stormfront is and 262 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:07.200 what sort of the what you've found out yourself looking online, 263 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.240 what Stormfront have to say about you and this story. 264 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:18.000 Yeah, the Stormfront is a white nationalist website, like an 265 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.200 international one, but people from all over the world, people 266 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.559 from all over the world, you know, post on it. 267 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.879 And I was a person of interest to them because 268 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.320 I pranked in the past, in a totally separate case, 269 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.919 I'd pranked this ku Klux Klansman where I tried. I 270 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:39.279 tried to join the ku Klux Klan even though I'm 271 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:41.559 even though I'm Jewish, and I thought, so I kind 272 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:44.240 of go in there and I kind of act all naive, 273 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:46.559 like I'm like, listen, why can't I join? I don't 274 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.559 do anything Jewish anymore, you know, I don't. I don't 275 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.919 eat kosher. I haven't been into a synagogue since my 276 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.679 bar mitzvah let me join. And yeah, and so anyway, 277 00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:01.879 so once that was aired, then the people from Stormfront 278 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:04.960 were onto me. So were they were warning everyone, listen, 279 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:08.120 if you hear Saffran's filming another show, just watch out. 280 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:16.759 So yeah, they're definitely onto me. Interesting and also they 281 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.080 also the thing with Richard Barrett once I start once 282 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:20.840 he was killed and I started looking into it, just 283 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:25.039 all over message boards or white supremacist message boards, are 284 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.799 people all suspect with that he was, Yeah, he was 285 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.679 secretly gay. So it wasn't like I was the only 286 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.200 one who had that impression. But then one of the 287 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.120 sort of weird twists in the book is like it's 288 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:41.399 like the opposite of what you'd expect. It's like, at 289 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:44.720 a certain point in my researching, when I'm over there, 290 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:47.960 it might be the big reveal or I was thinking 291 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.639 in my head, I was like, my god, it might 292 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:53.320 be that he's not gay, like because you just instinctively think, oh, 293 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.440 the way a book should be is there's this white 294 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.080 supremacist and I don't know what's going on, and then daddah, 295 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:02.759 I find this secret ever that he's gay. But it 296 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.640 was more like everyone spoke about how he was probably gay. 297 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:09.000 But then I'd sort of like I met up with 298 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.480 so many people who actually knew him, not knew him 299 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:13.720 from one degree of separation, but like knew him and 300 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.720 knew him when they were young boys, and Richard was 301 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.279 a bit older and they didn't think he was it 302 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.000 was like, anyway, so many people who had like direct 303 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:28.279 contact with him and you know, really didn't have an 304 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.440 agenda to stand up for him, would say, I listen, 305 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:32.079 he was a jerk. I hated him. He was a creep. 306 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:33.880 But I've got to tell you, you know, I was 307 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.000 fourteen at the time he was twenty, and you know, 308 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.400 I can't remember him being a predator. And so it 309 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:45.279 was like that became an interesting part of the journey, 310 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:48.559 was maybe people just make up rooms and stories in 311 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:52.039 their heads and then they just become the truth in 312 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:56.119 inverted commas. But then you know it's not the truth. 313 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:04.599 Yeah. Now you have been to the US before, Like 314 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:09.319 you said, you're in Orange County with the KKK. Now 315 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.000 you're back in Mississippi again, and this is the state 316 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:16.519 capital's Jackson, Mississippi. Tell us describe the people and the 317 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:21.519 atmosphere of the geography. Tell us a little bit about Jackson, Mississippi. 318 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.599 A little bit of a culture shock, I would imagine. 319 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:29.000 Oh yeah, definitely, there's been a lot of self segregation 320 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.880 over the last ten years. So you have the Jackson 321 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:36.480 which is in Hinz County and Jackson's like vast majority black. 322 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.640 And then right next to it. You've got rankin county 323 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.440 where all the white people have gone, and you know 324 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:48.359 that's majority white. And because of the way people have 325 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.599 voted in in America, in the little community, as soon 326 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.640 as the demographic shifts in the community, you start voting 327 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:58.039 for people of your own race or ethnicity. So you know, 328 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.920 the people in power in Jackson over the last ten 329 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.680 years have you know, the sheriffs and the heads of 330 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.000 police and the judges and everyone else that gets voted in. 331 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.240 You know, more black people have becoming in charge. But 332 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.599 the one difference I really noted compared to Melbourne where 333 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:21.039 I live, is there there was generally only black people 334 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:24.319 or white people, whilst in I don't know what's going 335 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.400 down in different places in Canada, but you know, in Melbourne, 336 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.359 you know we'll have Arabs, or will have Greek people 337 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:34.640 and Maltese people and Chinese people and Indian people and 338 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:39.400 you know, few Aboriginal people. But whilst yeah, in Mississippi, 339 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:42.000 it seems like you're either black or you're white, and 340 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:44.279 there were nothing none of these sort of like in 341 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:50.359 between people that you have in multicultural places. So that 342 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:53.119 was like really start, like, I don't think there's even 343 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:58.880 many like Latino Latin American people there. So yeah, that 344 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:01.519 was that was that was really stark and I really 345 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.640 noticed that. And also you turn up to some place 346 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:07.799 and pretty much everyone's black, you know, like in a 347 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.400 or pretty much everyone's white, like yeah, and that's that's 348 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.079 really notable. And I know I'm not going mad by 349 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:20.279 noticing that because I found this promotion I think in 350 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:25.519 some Jackson local newspaper where they're trying to encourage black 351 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:27.640 and white people that like eat together at the local 352 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:32.240 eateries and there were like twenty percent off if you 353 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.680 dine with someone of the other Rakish and this was 354 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:40.759 like two ten or something that that little promotion was. 355 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:44.960 Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, so that's that's a culture shock. 356 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.960 I would be for me too. That's exactly the situation here. 357 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:54.839 It's multicultural. You see every reason ethnicity everywhere, and so 358 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:56.759 it's very diverse in all the community. 359 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:03.920 So yeah, now you said, the other thing I noticed 360 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:10.640 about Mississippi was very parochial, where like other parts have 361 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:12.799 been in America. Like you say, you're from Australia and 362 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:14.839 everyone kind of wants to ask you questions about it 363 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.920 and what's it like, and everyone's really enthusiastic about finding 364 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:20.720 out about some other place in the world. But in 365 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:24.640 Mississippi it was very parochial. They didn't really think of 366 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:28.279 the rest of America except in really negative ways, like 367 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.480 as if everyone in New York their only purpose of 368 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:34.839 existence is to try to somehow keep Mississippian down, like 369 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.000 the real bitter, paranoid view of the rest of America. 370 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.640 And then and yeah, not the rest of the world 371 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:45.720 that doesn't even enter there generally, you know, generalizing, but 372 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.079 compared to other places I've gone, Yeah, it's very parochial, 373 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:53.640 not a very cosmopolitan outlook, and parochial almost to the 374 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:57.240 extent of like the county in Mississippi you're in, so 375 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.559 not even like the whole of Mississippi. It's like you're 376 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.119 in your little county and you're really inward looking to 377 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.400 that county and you're just not really that interested in 378 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:07.759 what's going on outside. 379 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:13.160 Now, in your journey in Mississippi, you go to this 380 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:17.240 trial and it's about a month before the trail occurs, 381 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.279 So you're in Mississippi for a month, am I correct? 382 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:20.440 Yeah? 383 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:22.039 Yeah, for previous to the trail. 384 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:25.480 Yeah, yeah, that's right. I kind of base that on 385 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:27.519 when I was just trying to guess at what I 386 00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:30.119 meant to be doing. I just decided I'll go a 387 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.039 month early because in Midnight in the Garden of Good 388 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.039 and Evil, that true crime book, you know, he's in 389 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:40.759 the small town, the author John Barrant, way before the trial, 390 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.079 and that really helps you, you know, get to know 391 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:47.839 the locals and suddenly you're not just this kind of 392 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:52.000 strange journalist is just rocked up, and you know, you 393 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.279 get a bit of time to sort of build up 394 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:57.480 trust and sniff around. So yeah, I was there for 395 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:01.480 a month, and you know, I met lots of interesting 396 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:04.160 people that ended up in the book. And it's always 397 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.920 like I couldn't have asked to bump into more interesting 398 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:10.759 people that who were exactly what I was looking for 399 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.160 for the sake of my book. So but then then 400 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:18.720 the trial was delayed, and that's when I decided, well, 401 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:20.759