WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:07.280 It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm Wbzy Constance Video Ori. 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:10.679 Welcome back everybody. Before we start the nine o'clock hour tonight, 3 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:14.000 we have a special ticket giveaway here on night Side. 4 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.960 We haven't done this often, but if you happen to 5 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.199 be a Tina Turner fan, well there's a big show. 6 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.760 The Tina Turner Musical is coming to the Hanover Theater 7 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:29.879 in Worcester on Friday, October eighteenth at eight pm. So, 8 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.679 as I begin this hour talking to my guest, if 9 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:37.119 you'd like to give a shot at this, if you're 10 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:43.520 calling number ten right now to this number special number six, one, seven, nine, three, one, 11 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:46.159 ten thirty, you're gonna win two tickets to see Tina 12 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:49.320 the Tina Turner Musical let the Hanover Theater in Worcester 13 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:52.679 on Friday night, October eighteenth at eight pm. It's an 14 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.920 uplifting comeback story like no other. Tina the Tina Turner 15 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.719 Musical is the inspiring journey of a woman who broke 16 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.040 barriers and became the Queen of rock and roll. Set 17 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:08.000 to the post pounding soundtrack of her most beloved hits. 18 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.040 This is an electrifying sensation. It will send you soaring 19 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.920 into the rafters. So Rob, just let them come in. 20 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:18.239 It's going to be caller number ten. Don't have to 21 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.120 spend a lot of time with it. Just tell them 22 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:22.719 caller one, caller two, call a three, call of four, 23 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.159 and we'll move to caller number ten as quickly as possible. 24 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.439 You may get some busy's here, but just give them 25 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:31.959 the courtesy Rob of telling them to call her three, 26 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:34.799 call of four and we'll get him for calling number ten. 27 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:37.879 Call her ten at six pe seven ninth, three, one, ten, 28 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:40.519 thirty will win two tickets to a great musical, The 29 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.640 Tina Turner Musical at the Hintover Theater in Worcester, Friday, 30 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:47.519 October eighteenth, at eight pm. Rob, when you get a winner, 31 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.000 tell me and I'll call. Tell the people that think 32 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:55.280 they can stop calling. All right now, The subject that's 33 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.000 sort of the appetizer for this hour, the subject that 34 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:01.400 he end. The subject that he end is the m 35 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:05.879 CAST question. It's BALLID two. It's BALLID Question number two 36 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:12.599 in Massachusetts, which will ask voters whether or not an 37 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:19.080 MCAST passing score should remain a graduation requirement for public 38 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:25.120 school students throughout the state. The Massachusetts Teachers Association are 39 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:28.520 opposed to this idea, and so they have put a 40 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:34.639 ballid question on which would eliminate not mcast, but would 41 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:38.680 eliminate the graduation requirement. With us to talk about it 42 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:44.280 and explain, I think a question that is a vital 43 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.039 importance to the commonwealth, to be very honest with you, 44 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:51.360 is Matt Hills. Matt is the vice chair of the 45 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:57.439 Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. Matt his family 46 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.000 live in Newton. He in a lovely wife, have four 47 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:06.199 children who went through the Newton Public School K through twelve. 48 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.960 Matt received a bachelor's degree in economics and politics from 49 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:13.400 Brandeis University and NBA from Harvard Business School. He's former 50 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:15.960 chair of the Newton School Committee. He served in the 51 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:18.919 committee for eight years through twenty eighteen, and he is 52 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:22.439 currently vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and 53 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:26.240 Secondary Education. Matt Hill's welcome to Nights Out. How are you. 54 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:30.639 I'm great, Dan, Thanks so much for having me. I 55 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.199 appreciate you inviting me. And it's not my first time 56 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:37.800 on your show. I was on at least once a 57 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.319 number of years ago about some Newton issues. So thanks 58 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:41.159 for having me back. 59 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:44.560 As we say, and by the way, It's important to 60 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:47.560 point out that you serve on this position. This is 61 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:51.240 not a funded position. You do this out of your 62 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:59.120 concern for public education in Massachusetts, and that's very important 63 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:01.639 for people to realize, to be thank you, to be 64 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:05.680 honest with you, this is an appointed position. You were 65 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:10.039 first appointed, well, you've been appointed twice by Governor Baker, 66 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:11.520 if I'm not mistaken. 67 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:16.639 Right, like most people on the board, I believe most 68 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:20.560 people on the board. I'm a registered Democrat, and Governor 69 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:26.399 Baker appointed us notwithstanding any party affiliation, So that's correct. 70 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:31.199 I was appointed originally in twenty nineteen and then in 71 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.600 the summer of twenty twenty two for a second five 72 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:35.240 year term. 73 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:38.639 And before we begin, I want to make it clear 74 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.079 to my audience that we had hoped to turn this 75 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.319 program tonight, at least the hour that we're going to 76 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:48.000 spend with you, into a conversation or a discussion. We 77 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:53.160 invited Max Page, who is the president I believe, of 78 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:58.160 the mass Teachers Association, to join us, but he declined, 79 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.680 and I just wanted to make a there. We actually 80 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:07.439 invited them to designate someone else. So let's by the way, Rob, 81 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:09.079 I assume you got a winner there. On the Tina 82 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.519 Turner tickets, right, Okay, so you can stop calling folks 83 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:15.240 of the Tena Turner tickets. That's what's important about that. 84 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.519 So congratulations. Maybe I get that name from you during 85 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:22.399 the break so I can give them a congratulations. Now, 86 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:26.800 let's talk just a little bit of history here before 87 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:29.279 we go to break, and then we will take phone 88 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:36.000 calls from interested individuals. Mcass was part of education reform 89 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.879 in the mid nineteen nineties when Republicans and Democrats felt 90 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:43.680 that there had to be some standards in the public 91 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.800 school systems, in every public school system throughout the Cormwealth 92 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:53.959 of Massachusetts. Explain to us if you could briefly how 93 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.720 that legislation came to be and how the system that 94 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:02.600 parents today are very well you came into in your creation. 95 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:09.439 So the very short answer to a very long story 96 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:13.800 is the legislation was just a great example, as you 97 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:20.199 said in nineteen ninety three, of bipartisan cooperation and excellent 98 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:24.519 policy that came out of that bipartisan cooperation. Bill Weld 99 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:29.240 was governor, I believe Tom Birmingham was President of the 100 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:34.519 Senate at the time, and it's origins, I'd love to 101 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:38.040 say it was all good intentions, but its origins were lawsuits, 102 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:44.879 and the essence of the lawsuits were the Commonwealth has 103 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:50.800 a constitutional responsibility, given the words in the Massachusetts Constitution, 104 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:57.319 to fix the unequal educational arrangements that we have with 105 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:02.360 three hundred plus district having three hundred plus different ways 106 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:06.120 of funding, and three hundred plus standards. Out of that 107 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:10.160 game was often referred to as the Grand Bargain, the 108 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:18.720 Massachusetts Educational Reform Act, which in a nutshell, provided significant 109 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:23.240 amounts of additional state funding billions and billions of dollars 110 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:29.120 today in addition to local funding in return for certain 111 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:34.839 standards voluntarily being adopted by districts, not all districts to 112 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:39.639 adopt them, and some way for the state to assess 113 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:46.720 whether districts are meeting their obligation to all students, not 114 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:50.240 just to the best performing students, to all students to 115 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:51.439 meet certain standards. 116 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:55.519 Just to make sure people understand that because some of 117 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.160 our listeners have kids in schools in school systems, others don't. 118 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:04.399 There are some tests that are given to students in 119 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:08.240 some basic courses in the third grade, uh and in 120 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.920 the eighth grade, and in the tenth grade, and in 121 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.399 the third grade in eighth grade. Those tests, as I 122 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:15.920 understand that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, are 123 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:20.480 intended to uh measure the strengths and weaknesses of the 124 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:25.319 kids in certain in certain subjects, and for the teachers 125 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.519 then to have an opportunity to help the kids, uh 126 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:32.000 the students that need some help, whether it's in English 127 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:34.559 or math, both in the third grade and then in 128 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:37.960 the eighth grade. And that there are test scores and 129 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:41.759 all of that, but there's no uh, there's no consequence 130 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:43.960 of good grades or bad grades in the third grade 131 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.440 or eighth grade. That's just part of the process that 132 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:50.639 that's going on. And those tests in the third and 133 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:53.720 eighth grade are not the issue in this ballot question, 134 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.960 but talk about the importance of those tests because they're 135 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.799 not going away no matter what the ballot question siderect. 136 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:05.399 So, yes, that's correct. School districts have their own assessments 137 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:11.399 of their students. The one opportunity, the only opportunity that 138 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.720 the state has to assess the performance of districts and 139 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:21.960 students is the MCAST MASSACHUSETTSS Comprehensive Assessment System. I think 140 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:26.159 that's what MCAST stands for. They are given third through 141 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:30.000 eighth grade, so third, fourth, fourth, fifth, seventh, sixth, seventh grade, 142 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:35.519 tenth grade, and there's state law and federal law that 143 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:41.080 requires it. None of that goes away if this referendum would, 144 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:48.000 unfortunately pass, the referendum would do away with the single 145 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:55.600 opportunity that the state has to ensure minimum standards across 146 00:09:55.679 --> 00:10:00.480 districts are being met for all students that are ready 147 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:04.519 to graduate from high school and to ensure some consistency. 148 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.720 That's all we're talking about here. It's a tenth grade 149 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:16.240 m CAST assessment. It's based on tenth grade educational standards, 150 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:21.120 and in the absence of this test, there is no 151 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:25.440 other opportunity for the state to ensure minimum standards or 152 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:27.480 some consistency across districts. 153 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:30.840 Matt, I got a pause for a commercial break. But 154 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:32.799 when we get back, what I want to talk about 155 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:38.440 what happens if when the students take the test in 156 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:41.120 the tenth grade. And I thought that these tests only 157 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:43.600 were given into third and eighth grade. So you've educated 158 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.919 me already that all of this the testing is three 159 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:49.919 through eight, not just third and eighth. 160 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.799 Correct, correct, the graduation requirement is only tenth grade. 161 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:55.960 Though yes, I understand that, No I did. I thought 162 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:59.960 but okay, so the only thing that is at risk 163 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:02.639 here is the graduation requirement. We'll talk about that. We'll 164 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.559 talk about the success rate of students, the number of 165 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:09.279 tests that students have, the number of opportunities they have. 166 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:14.519 There are certain students obviously who have you know, some 167 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:19.679 have maybe their anxiety. We'll talk about all of that. 168 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:25.080 They try to help kids achieve at a very minimal 169 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.840 level this test. But the Teachers' Union, as I understand it, 170 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.759 is leading the charge to eliminate this test and in effect, 171 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.799 in my opinion, return to what we used to call 172 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:39.120 social promotion, where it doesn't matter how prepared you are, 173 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.240 whatever your age is, you get promoted, and then eventually 174 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:45.879 the system kind of kicks you out at the end 175 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:48.799 of your senior year and says good luck. We'll be 176 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.679 back with my guest, Matt Hills, who is the vice 177 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:56.440 chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. 178 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.639 We'll get to some phone calls if you want to 179 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.480 join us right away. Six one, seven, two, five, four 180 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:05.600 ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty 181 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:10.360 Back with Matt Hills talking about the MCAST graduation requirement, 182 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.679 A ballid question that all of us who are going 183 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:15.799 to vote. It's ballid question number two, when we will 184 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.919 explain to you kind of the complexity of this because 185 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:20.960 what might seem like a yes vote should be a 186 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:23.440 no vote. Inconversely, what you might think is a no 187 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:25.600 vote as a yes vote, because it is all the 188 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.399 way the question is phrased. We'll be back on night 189 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:29.279 Side right after this. 190 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:33.720 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 191 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.000 night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. 192 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:41.600 Well, I guess this Matt Hills. Matt is the vice 193 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:46.200 chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, 194 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:50.399 and he is here to support mcast not only the 195 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.879 testing that goes on during the elementary and junior high 196 00:12:54.919 --> 00:13:00.000 school years and the assistance and the instruction the teachers 197 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.000 are supposed to give students who are having difficulty with 198 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:06.080 one or more subjects, but he also is a supporter 199 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:09.759 of the testing. Now, Matt, these tests, some would say 200 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:12.200 their high stakes test. I think that's what the Teachers 201 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:19.200 Union are saying. What percentage of students in Massachusetts do 202 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:23.360 not successfully complete these tests? My understanding it is a 203 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.039 very low percentage, that's right. 204 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:31.039 So this is a great place to start. So if 205 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:36.159 I could just explain kind of the facts and fiction 206 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:40.759 about the test and why it's so important to keep it. 207 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:44.559 I mean, this is, as I said before, the sole 208 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:51.159 only opportunity the state has to ensure minimum graduation requirements 209 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:56.720 in some consistency. If this referendum passes, every district sets 210 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.519 its own standards. It is not repeal and replace, as 211 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.360 some people call it. It is repeal and there's a 212 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:11.919 prohibition in the question on any other statewide graduation requirement. 213 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:16.840 So this throws away a graduation requirement that's been in 214 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:20.639 place for decades. It would cause harm to the quality 215 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:27.039 of our public education. It's particularly unfair and unjust to 216 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:31.600 the most vulnerable students because, as you have already pointed out, Dan, 217 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.320 the whole purpose of AMCASS is to focus the effort 218 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.600 of districts on the students who need to help the most, 219 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.279 and not just push people along or push students off 220 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:49.679 to the side. So the mythology around this question is striking. 221 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:53.960 I've been involved in local political issues for almost twenty 222 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.159 five years, and this one stands out. So let me 223 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:02.720 just go through some very quick points. Number one, the 224 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:08.519 scores on the tenth grade graduation test actually are very 225 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:12.840 predictive of future life outcomes that are the very reason 226 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:19.240 we value a good education system, future income and or 227 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:21.919 the likelihood of en rolling in a two or four 228 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.279 year college. We want to prepare our students to launch 229 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.080 into the workforce or for further education. If you hear 230 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.519 this test is nothing more than testing your ability to 231 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:36.759 take a test, that's false. This is predictive of what 232 00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:42.840 we value in education. Secondly to your question, one percent 233 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:47.320 of the students, approximately seven hundred in the last pre 234 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:51.919 pandemic year, did not graduate solely because they didn't pass 235 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:57.360 the tenth grade M test. It's just not true that 236 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:00.960 thousands and thousands of students are not passed. There are 237 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.879 students who don't pass, but also don't mean local requirements 238 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.240 that wouldn't They wouldn't get a graduation diploma even if 239 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.320 mcast went away. 240 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.679 One fos for a second here if I can mat, 241 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.039 I want to since we don't have anyone for the 242 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.120 teachers union here, I want to make sure it's a 243 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:20.600 little fair. So so you have seven hundred kids out 244 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:26.159 of I guess it's about sixty seven seventy thousand seniors 245 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.399 who are graduating every year. How many shots do these 246 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.600 kids have at this exam. Is it one and done? 247 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.879 Next point, that's your your your feet. You're feeding into. 248 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.879 Uh because I want to I want to get to 249 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:41.440 calls to man, So let's just feed. 250 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:47.440 I'm where I'm gonna sort of wrap this up shortly. Third, 251 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:54.000 most students, almost ninety three percent pass on their very 252 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:58.679 first attempt, which is almost always in grade ten, okay, 253 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:03.080 And almost all students pass on their second or third attempt, 254 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:07.480 which is grade eleven. There are five attempts you have 255 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.720 while you're in high school to pass the test, and 256 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:16.880 in addition, there's other ways to be deemed to have 257 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:18.839 met the requirement there. 258 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:21.799 What about kids who have any We'll get to those 259 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.799 of the What about kids who have anxiety or they 260 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.480 are disliked that they have some impediment to take it? 261 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.279 Is there any consideration of those kids? 262 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:38.240 So yes, And not only are there considerations for those kids, 263 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:44.759 there's a significant number of accommodations for any special need 264 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:48.079 student on an IEP. I mean, there's a forty four 265 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:53.480 page book filled with accommodations. But the but the exceptions 266 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.119 go further than that because in addition to the five 267 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:00.960 attempts you have to pass, there's a lower score you 268 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:04.880 could earn and with some additional help from the district, 269 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:10.359 be deemed to have passed. And there's appeals process for 270 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:14.680 special needs students and for what you described as kind 271 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.480 of the students with anxiety, you know, sort of decent 272 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:20.400 grades but not good test takers. 273 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:24.119 And at the bottom of the hour, Matt, so I 274 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.759 got to put you on pause for a second, I 275 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:29.680 got to take the news. At the bottom of the hour, 276 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.319 we get back. We will finish the reason that all 277 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:36.480 the information we have and then here phone, I'll phone calls. 278 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:38.960 Don't understand, but I got to stay on course with 279 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.119 the news and all of that sort of stuff on 280 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.079 the radio show. Here I do. We'll take a quick 281 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.160 break back. But I guess, Matt Hills, who is the 282 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.480 vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, 283 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.319 a poll, which we will be talking about next hour, 284 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:57.400 shows that most people are not convinced that this this 285 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:01.160 graduation requirement should stay based upon a poll we're going 286 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:04.960 to be talking next home with Dave Paleologus, Suffolk University polster. 287 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.519 But I won't. But there's been a lot of advertising 288 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:12.920 done by the teachers Union. They have bombarded local television. 289 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.799 We're going to talk about that as well, and if 290 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.079 you'd like to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, 291 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.160 thirty six, one, seven, nine, three, one tenth. They would 292 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.119 try to get called two calls as quickly as we 293 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:27.440 can back right after the news. Now at nine thirty two. 294 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:35.000 Night Side with Dan Ray ONBZ, Boston's news radio. 295 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.240 We're talking with Matt Hills, the device chair of the 296 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.400 Massachusetts Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. We're talking about 297 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.599 ballot question number two, which if you want to get 298 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:50.160 rid of about this on this graduation requirement, this MCAST graduation requirement, 299 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.839 you're going to vote yes. If you'd like to keep it, 300 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.920 you vote no. We'll explain that a little bit. But Matt, 301 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:58.960 I want to come back to this situation and let 302 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.960 me sort of if you played Devil's advocate for just 303 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.200 one second with you here, okay, despite. 304 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:05.640 It, And I also just want to wrap up the 305 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:08.079 point we were talking about if I have a moment. 306 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:09.759 To do that, So yeah, you got to do it 307 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:11.400 quickly for me because I want to get the phone 308 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:12.319 calls to go ahead. 309 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:15.200 I just want to be clear on the question you asked. 310 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:17.799 There's not one attempt you got to take the test. 311 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:20.480 There's five in high school. You can also take it 312 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:27.319 after twelfth grade indefinitely. There's accommodations for special needs students. 313 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.799 There's also appeals processes, So if you have a student 314 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:35.160 with anxiety, who's you know, bad test taker, but good students. 315 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:39.480 There's appeals processes also for special needs students who don't pass. 316 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:44.160 About seventy five percent of appeals get approved. So if 317 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.839 you hear you have one chance to take the test 318 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.799 and that's it, that's just a total falsehood. You have 319 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:54.839 many chances, are opportunities. 320 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:57.960 That is why matt I phrased the question that way, 321 00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:59.319 to give you that opportunity. 322 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:01.480 No, I understand, and they're fine. 323 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.680 Now let me go from the point of view please 324 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:05.640 devil's advocate for a second. What do you say to 325 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.839 a parent who has a child who is having trouble 326 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.519 is not a great test taker and they want to 327 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.480 vote on this. My argument is that this is sort 328 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.960 of the reality of life, that there will be tests 329 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.599 people will have to take every day in there, either 330 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.319 in college or wherever they might go to school, or 331 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.079 or in life if they open a business that they 332 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.400 work in a business. And this sounds to me like 333 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:39.599 the Teachers' Union is looking to basically make sure everybody 334 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:43.440 gets the same trophy. It's no longer you know, kindergarten 335 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.079 soccer where everybody gets a trophy. It's something you don't 336 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:51.400 want to devalue the value of the diploma by giving 337 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.759 a diploma and socially basically getting back to social promotion 338 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.839 promoting everyone. How far off am I on that as 339 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:00.880 an argument. 340 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:02.480 So. 341 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:10.440 I can only speculate about what's truly motivating. 342 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:18.480 The That's not my question. My question is is this 343 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:24.200 an extension of what used to be called you know, 344 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:28.440 everyone gets yeah, And so if it doesn't matter how 345 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.960 you do in high school, everybody gets it. Everybody gets 346 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:32.279 a graduate, gets a diploma. 347 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:38.279 Whether that's the motivation, that will be a key and 348 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:41.519 negative outcome of this, and that will be the shame 349 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:46.240 of it. So social promotion, you know, when it comes 350 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:49.119 to schools is not just you know, as simple as 351 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.200 everybody gets a trophy, so everybody's a winner and everyone 352 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.920 feels happy. What we are doing as a state is 353 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:02.680 shirking our responsibility to give our students what they need 354 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.559 to move on after grade twelve in the workforce or 355 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:11.119 for further education. If we are not doing something to 356 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:16.079 ensure that those minimum standards are met. That's what the 357 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:20.119 constitutional violation would have been that led to the nineteen 358 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:25.640 ninety three and Reform Act. That's what MCAST is a 359 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.599 critical part of remedying over the last thirty years, the 360 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:35.119 ability of the state to ensure that the focus is 361 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:41.720 put where it's needed. And that's why educational achievement has 362 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:46.759 gone up. It's straightened though, but it went up and 363 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:50.319 now it's flattened out. We need to try other things. 364 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:53.720 You don't throw out the CAST that's enabling us to 365 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:58.599 see that. You have to try other policies that work, 366 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.680 and that's what, for quite a number of years narrowed 367 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:05.759 some of the achievement gaps in the state. So with 368 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:10.440 respect to a parent who's seeing their students struggle with testing, 369 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:14.119 I would simply say this the only way for the 370 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.359 state to ensure this is not an IQ test, this 371 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:22.119 is not an FAT This is testing whether the educational 372 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.920 standards are being met, and the only way for the 373 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.559 state to ensure this is through these tests and through 374 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:33.880 the graduation requirement. If we don't have this graduation requirement, 375 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.839 we will be one of three states in the entire 376 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:43.720 country with no comprehensive statewide requirements. 377 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:47.880 I got to go to phone calls. Okay, I'm sorry 378 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:49.960 to interrupt you, but I think you've made some of 379 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.400 those points repeatedly, and that's why I want to go 380 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:54.920 to phone calls. Let me go first to Lawrence in 381 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:58.440 West Roxbury. Lawrence, you're a night side with Matt Hills, 382 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:02.000 the vice chair of the Massachusetts Board of Elementary and 383 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:03.079 Secondary Education. 384 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:08.240 Go ahead, Lawrence, mister Hills, rather than on you the path, 385 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:14.279 why when you use the Stanford of metropolitanic teament tests, 386 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.599 which have you know, fifty years of data, or make comparison? 387 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:20.880 I'll think your answer optophone. 388 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.279 Okay, I'm not familiar with that particular test, Matt. I 389 00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:27.480 don't know that you necessarily are either. But if you 390 00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:33.119 are correct, then feel free to defend the MCAST test 391 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.839 because it's been around here for a while and you 392 00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:37.680 said that it was that it is predictive. 393 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.400 M test gives us the information we need, so I 394 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.720 can't compare it to another test. I will only say 395 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.400 it is it enables us to see whether those minimum 396 00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:49.480 standards are met. 397 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.640 Yeah, and that is also not the issue here. The 398 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:53.519 issue is whether we're going to blow up this test 399 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:56.359 and get rid of it as a graduation requirement. That's 400 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:00.920 the question played. It simple. It's not that we will 401 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.799