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Jump Chumbucasino dot com 46 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:04.319 sens ettails. 47 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:15.599 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 48 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:18.719 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 49 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:26.080 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 50 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.759 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 51 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:34.080 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 52 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:50.039 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. On March thirteenth, 53 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:55.800 nineteen eighty, in Ventura County, California, prominent attorney Lyman Robert Smith, 54 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.680 on the verge of being appointed a superior Court judge 55 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:03.000 and his wife, Sharlene were murdered in their home. Author 56 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:06.680 Anne Penn, her actual name Laurie, is the couple's niece. 57 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.360 She was close to her grandfather, Lymon's father, and saw 58 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:14.439 the devastating impact the murders had on the family. Once 59 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.560 she realized it was the work of Easteria rapists original 60 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.680 night Stalker, Laurie vowed to do all she could to 61 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:25.199 investigate and help solve the incredible serial murder mystery. She 62 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:29.680 was hopeful, convinced that advances in familiar DNA, along with 63 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:34.039 dogged law enforcement, would make an arrest, and she believed 64 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:37.439 the killer still and had always lived in Sacramento, and 65 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:43.000 that Easterio Rapist Original Nightstalker had possibly targeted her family 66 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.599 members four hundred miles away in southern California to kill them. 67 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:51.719 FBI investigator Paul Hols used DNA re recovered from one 68 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:54.599 of the Easter Ay Rapists Original night Stalker crime scenes 69 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:59.439 to first find the killer's great great grandparents and painstakingly 70 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:03.000 worked through thousands of relatives to the present day. The 71 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:06.879 investigation led to a seventy two year old retiree living 72 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:11.439 in the Sacramento suburb of Citrus Heights. On April twenty fourth, 73 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:16.480 Joseph James DiAngelo was arrested. Laurie will discuss the case, 74 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:20.839 her reaction, her predictions and conclusions, and what she will 75 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:25.319 do now regarding this still for her unfolding investigation, the 76 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:27.639 subject that we're dealing with this evening and the book 77 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.439 Easter Ay Rapist, Original Nightstalker, Golden State Killer Unmasked. A 78 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:37.839 family member speaks out and Penn, welcome to the program. 79 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.759 Thank you very much for greeing this interview, and Penn, 80 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.800 or as I should say, Lourie, welcome to the program. 81 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:46.639 Thank you, Dan. 82 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:50.680 How are you, Oh, very fine, Thank you very fine. 83 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.120 Thank you. First off, I just got to get I 84 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:56.519 haven't spoken to you personally. I wanted to save this 85 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:02.480 moment and savor it for just your thoughts when you 86 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:06.680 Where were you, How did you hear about this? What 87 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:09.399 tell us about this? What was your reaction? 88 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:15.040 Well, it was really amazing that I haven't been to 89 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.560 Sacramento in a while to visit friends. And I was 90 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:21.720 taking a break and was actually in Sacramento visiting and 91 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:24.759 was staying with a friend, and I said, can I 92 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:26.879 check the computer. I didn't bring my laptop, I didn't 93 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:29.639 bring any devices anything with me, and so I was 94 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:31.920 on the computer for a few minutes and realized something 95 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:36.839 was happening with the case and that I was like, well, 96 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:39.600 it sounds kind of vague and not really, I'm not sure. 97 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.519 And then I talked to one of the people on 98 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:45.319 the pro boards that I kind of check in on 99 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.519 about the case, and he reassured me. He said, I 100 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:53.000 promise you, and it is one hundred percent real and 101 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.439 it's one hundred percent DNA match. And that's when I 102 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:58.079 could go to bed. It was three o'clock in the morning. 103 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:00.360 By then I was trying to find deep tells an 104 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:03.720 information for about three hours. So the next morning I 105 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.160 was told they would have a press conference in Sacramento, 106 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.879 and so it was just very surreal because I'm never 107 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.920 in Sacramento except to visit friends once in a while. 108 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:16.120 And I actually ended up at the home of a 109 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:20.360 friend that, ironically enough, was the friend who when I 110 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.360 was chased down the street in nineteen seventy one. She 111 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:26.160 was her front door. I ran to I was actually 112 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:28.519 in her home when I found this out. I was 113 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:30.240 just like, wow, wow. 114 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:35.040 Yeah, that's a wow moment. Yeah. 115 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:37.240 She was like, she was like, I can't believe this. 116 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:39.839 You know, I could talk about full circle, you know, 117 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.680 when the fear began when I got chased, and it 118 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.120 went on until all of a sudden, I'm relieved that 119 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.879 this guy's sitting in a thefell a little box. I 120 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.839 was actually driving on the freeway past J Street, and 121 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:59.879 the next day after the announcement by all the different jurisdictions, 122 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.519 and I have to tell you, I mentally had to 123 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:06.920 uh sort of give him a what do you call it? 124 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:15.839 With your hands down. Yeah, it was great relief to 125 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:17.600 know he was just a few blocks away sitting in 126 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:18.040 a box. 127 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:21.879 Yeah. And you sound you sound a lot better too. 128 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.519 I mean you sound different. I mean, I just interviewed 129 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:28.800 Richard Shelby, and you know, I'm I'm sure, like you said, 130 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:33.319 nobody's celebrating in law enforcement, but uh, it's relief and 131 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:35.959 it's and it's a different response for you. This this 132 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.720 means more. I mean, if it can mean more than 133 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:42.839 it means to a dedicated detective who's lived with it 134 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:45.759 his entire career and then be on right up to 135 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:49.160 the present moment. But as we will hear from you, 136 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:53.319 it it can and and it has it when an. 137 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.639 Interesting rollercoaster of emotions. 138 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:01.319 So I would say, certainly understatement. Now when you found 139 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:06.040 out the name, and again I alluded to that you 140 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:11.720 know this is now will what will Laurie do regarding 141 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.879 this still for her unfolding investigation And I'm trying to 142 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.839 be dramatic, but it's not untrue that this is still 143 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:23.360 unfolding for you. You're still I know from the two 144 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:27.879 books that you've written already, you're obsessed, obsession with this case, 145 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:31.759 your need to solve this. You've done a lot of speculation, 146 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:33.960 You've done a lot of predicting, You've done a lot 147 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:40.320 of encouraging, we'll say, and criticism where criticism may be needed. 148 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.720 But what happened when you heard the name Joseph James 149 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:49.480 DeAngelo and then realized, as like Richard Shelby said, he's 150 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.639 been there since the seventies in Citrus Heights. What was 151 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.360 your reaction when you heard number one that you had 152 00:08:55.399 --> 00:08:59.840 predicted all along that he was from Sacramento, he still 153 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:05.639 is in Sacramento, and so what was your reaction when 154 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:11.120 number one you thought you were right, that was verified. 155 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.559 What was your reaction to finding out where he had lived? 156 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:18.039 Well, of course I wasn't the only one who had 157 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:21.600 come to that conclusion. But I investigated the case, as 158 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:25.360 you know, over time, for quite some time. And one 159 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:27.879 day I picked up the phone and I called Larry Crompton, 160 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:32.120 who I had previously contacted after I had read his 161 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:35.600 book a couple of years back, and I said, here's 162 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.679 what I think. And he was really great because he 163 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.519 always listened and he always believed whatever it was you 164 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:44.519 had to say, and he was always very supportive. And 165 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:48.159 I said, this is what I think's I said, I 166 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.799 think that he is from Sacramento. I think he lived 167 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:54.799 in Sacramento at the time. I think he's still there. 168 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.519 I think he's probably never been in any trouble, which 169 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:02.320 is why we can't find his DNA. And it was 170 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:04.960 terrifying to me to think that he was still not 171 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.720 too far from where I lived, and I wrote a 172 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.440 book about him, so that was kind of scary. But 173 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.840 I wanted to get the word out to Sacramento people 174 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:18.519 because I was so certain that he was still there. 175 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:23.759 Because he was arrogant, he was living under everyone's nose. 176 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:26.720 It's not untypical of a serial killer to try to 177 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.799 fit into a community and just stay there and kind 178 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.120 of hide in a family, which is what he did, 179 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:36.279 and never leave that area. And what's really arrogant about 180 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:38.480 him was that he picked Citrus Heights to buy a 181 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.639 home in nineteen seventy nine and he lived in his 182 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.919 attack areas. And that just irks me, no, and I 183 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:47.679 can't tell you. I'm sure it irks all the victims 184 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.480 and all the families that involved that he was just 185 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:54.240 sitting there all this time and thought that he would 186 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.960 never be caught, And he was even surprised when they 187 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:00.600 arrested him because he really probably never thought they would 188 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.759 figure it out. 189 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.360 So now you talk about in your book, and you 190 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.279 talked personally that you had a lot of conversations with 191 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.639 Paul Holes, the lead investigator, And then I spoke to 192 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:17.720 Richard Shelby yesterday last evening. On the interview, he said 193 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.840 that credit really has to go to a lot of people, 194 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:25.919 but especially Paul Holes for being innovative and also just 195 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.720 the great work he was doing. And I don't know 196 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.000 if he was official spokesman for the FBI, but he 197 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:34.320 sure acted as such. Tell us about some of the 198 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:40.200 conversations you had with Paul Holes and the relationship you developed, 199 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.360 you know, even though you're on different sides of the 200 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:49.279 equation here in this case. And also a little bit 201 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:52.720 about the explanation. I have the explanation on what exactly 202 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:55.080 he did, but tell us a little bit about your 203 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:57.559 relationship with Paul Holes before this arrest. 204 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:01.799 Well, the day that I old Larry Compton that I 205 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:04.440 thought he was still in Sacramento, I think his job 206 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:07.000 probably hit the floor because he was surprised that that 207 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.440 was the conclusion I had come to. And within the 208 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:13.919 hour after that conversation, he had me on the phone 209 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.600 with some volunteers who worked the case in Sacramento and 210 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.000 who were looking into different persons of interest over time, 211 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:26.720 and they also had thought the same thing, or at 212 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:29.720 least we're investigating people that were persons of interest from 213 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:31.639 that area at the time. And that was a couple 214 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.519 of years back. And so after that conversation, he also 215 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:40.720 talked to Paul Holes and we set up a conversation. 216 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:43.000 So I've been talking with him on and off for 217 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.759 a couple of years as well. Typically he would call 218 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:48.320 me when he was in the car on the way home, 219 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:51.200 and we chat for however long it took him to 220 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:54.679 get there. Sometimes it'd be thirty or forty minutes. And 221 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.039 then he also, of course, as he's stated on television 222 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:00.799 over and over, was in the same line frame as 223 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:05.000 I was, and Larry was, and many others probably were, 224 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.440 that he was still in Sacramento and that he just 225 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:12.240 would hop on the freeway there, Highway eighty or Highway 226 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:15.039 ninety nine and go to either Stockton on ninety nine 227 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:17.279 or he would head out to conquer It or wherever 228 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:22.320 he was going from Sacramento. So the relationship I had 229 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.840 with Paul was we were trying to before they decided 230 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:31.320 to go ahead and go to the genealogy site. We 231 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.799 were talking about different other thoughts and theories about how 232 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:40.320 there might be a connection from Sacramento to my uncle's 233 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:45.639 murder and Charlene's murder. We were investigating different thoughts on that. 234 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.399 I talked to the FBI and I talked to Paul 235 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.159 about different theories that we had because a lot of 236 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:55.240 people thought, well, gee, there might be some connection to 237 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:01.200 Citrus Heights and to my grandfather and Lyman Smith, who 238 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:05.519 lived in Citrus Heights. They lived there for until nineteen sixty, 239 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:09.559 but they had moved in nineteen sixty, so they weren't 240 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.279 there in the seventies at that time. So we were 241 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.080 trying to figure out if there was some connection because 242 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:19.080 my uncle was in Sacramento the week before he was murdered, 243 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:22.879 and he had connections there and you know, development and 244 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.360 different things that he was doing in business. So we 245 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.759 were discussing a lot of different theories and a lot 246 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:32.759 of different things over time before in the last two years. 247 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:36.600 And then one of the things, of course that was 248 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:41.720 always a topic of conversation was the DNA connection to 249 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.320 you know, some kind of family member and how to 250 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:49.120 go about doing that. So, you know, I just was anxious, 251 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:52.639 like most people were, to find out, well, why is 252 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:54.279 it taking so long, Why don't we just do it, 253 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:57.639 you know, because people would talk about that kind of 254 00:14:57.679 --> 00:14:59.919 thing back in two thousand and five they started to 255 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:04.679 you try to figure out how to connect criminals and 256 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.440 through DNA. So anyway, it was a long wait. 257 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.399 Now you let's talk more about Charlene Smith and the 258 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:21.120 former Charlene Doyle, and also your uncle who you called 259 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.000 uncle Bob and the only other people referred to him 260 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.360 as Uncle Bob, and I talked about how he was 261 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.320 a prominent lawyer and on the verge of being appointed 262 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:34.559 to judge. Brother's a very very good possibility. In your investigation, 263 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:39.039 you also talked about speaking with Colleen Cason, and so 264 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:42.720 tell us more about this possible connection with Citrus Heights. 265 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:48.320 Before you found out about Joseph James DeAngelo and his 266 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.080 connection to Citrus Heights, you were already on that Citrus 267 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.799 Heights trail. So, reviewing your book again, I'm amazed at 268 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:58.480 some of the things that you have said there now 269 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.480 in light of what has happened, do you think, as 270 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.919 I alluded to in the in the show description, that 271 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:13.360 there is a more sinister connection and reason for your 272 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:16.799 uncle and your aunt being targeted in four? Like I say, 273 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:18.519 four hundred miles away from Sacramento. 274 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.840 Well, it's one of two things. It was either a 275 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:26.440 major coincidence that they were, you know, related to people 276 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.519 from Sacramento, that my grandfather and grandmother lived off the 277 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:35.320 Highway ninety nine freeway there, or it was something that 278 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:40.799 maybe this guy saw Charlene and Lyman in Sacramento when 279 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:44.759 they were there visiting. They would visit my grandparents in 280 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:48.960 you know, it's close to downtown Sacramento, so you know, 281 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.240 like I said, or it's just a major coincidence. But 282 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.639 we were we were looking into what the connections were 283 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:59.240 and who who Lyman knew in Sacramento and things like 284 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.639 that for a while, because you know, you never know 285 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.840 what the one thing is it's going to connect it all, 286 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:07.400 and the one thing that's gonna solve it. And obviously 287 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.519 it was DNA. So I guess over time we'll find 288 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:14.440 out you know, maybe we won't, maybe we'll never find 289 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.079 out those details. I don't know what kind of details 290 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:19.720 this guy might give up. And I know that the 291 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:23.680 investigators have their hands full trying to figure out who, 292 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:26.559 who did what and where and when and how it 293 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:32.279 all connected. It just amazed me over time that as 294 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:33.640 I said in the book, it was like I was 295 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:35.799 doing some kind of dance with this guy, because when 296 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:40.119 I found out he was in Auburn, that was shocking 297 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.359 to me because I was married in Auburn in nineteen eighty. 298 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.279 The reason I got married in Auburn was because I 299 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.680 loved being up there. I used to go there for hikes, 300 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:54.200 used to go off of Auburn, off the major road there. 301 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:57.720 It was a mile from where this criminal was married. 302 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.200 I was married in a church a mile away from 303 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.240 where he was. He was a police officer in Auburn. 304 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.039 While I was going there all the time after work 305 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:09.640 to go hiking. I just it just blows my mind. 306 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.400 I really thought that somewhere along the way that I 307 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.359 probably crossed paths with the guy. And I always felt. 308 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:20.079 That what I thought interesting when you, I was just 309 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:22.480 going to mention the Auburn because that's what was startling 310 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:27.319 to me, is these again seeming coincidences. But the other 311 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.200 one I wanted to put out to you was that 312 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:34.720 you know, given what you already know, I'm interviewing Richard 313 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.039 and re reading his book as well, I realized this 314 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.160 he has certain he's taunting police to a certain degree. 315 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:45.119 He certainly thinks he's much smarter than a smarter police. 316 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:50.720 He's employing things such as accents to throw off and 317 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:54.440 all kinds of other techniques that he could have certainly 318 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.319 learned quite a bit of information from being a police 319 00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.640 officer in the six years that he did to be 320 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.000 able to throw off law enforcement. So he has some 321 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:06.119 issue with thinking he's much smarter than law enforcement. Would 322 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:10.799 have kind of extended to your uncle Bob, who was on, 323 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.119 like I say, the rd ship of being appointed a 324 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:20.119 superior court judge, a prominent lawyer, a former district attorney, again, 325 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:23.400 a super popular person in the school with a woman 326 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:28.759 ten years his junior, so in a very attractive woman. 327 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.839 But also I just thought, more so the idea of 328 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.839 law enforcement, where are the other crimes? 329 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:34.000 There? 330 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.920 There seemed to be no one of any not I 331 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.680 don't say prominence, but again law enforcement, taunting of police, 332 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:46.920 a possible judge, and the connection it seems even more 333 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:49.240 or less actually less coincidental. 334 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:52.400 I suppose he could have read something in the newspaper 335 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.839 and decided that would be his target. Or he could 336 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.559 very simply have just seen Charlene down by the ocean 337 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:02.519 there where she was working and followed her home. Like 338 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.680 I said, it's all speculation, but it'd be interesting. I 339 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.799 would love for the guy to just stand up and say, yeah, 340 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:11.759 I'm the guy. I did it, and here's what I 341 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:14.519 can tell you. I mean, that would be amazing, But 342 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:16.839 I don't think that he's going to. From what it 343 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:20.559 looks like at least BTK said yeah, I'm BTK, you 344 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:24.839 got me. But this guy that wimpy performance in court 345 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:28.119 the other day was really awful. 346 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:33.680 I didn't get to see it, so what was the 347 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:36.599 pathetic display? I know, he came in a wheelchair, looking 348 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:38.200 all right. 349 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:42.359 Yeah, looking like an old old man. Yeah, and according 350 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:44.599 to what I've read, and I haven't had time, as 351 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.359 you can imagine, in the last week, it's been insane 352 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:51.079 and very busy, but I haven't had enough time to 353 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.960 read enough about him yet. I actually wanted a moment 354 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.680 to just sort of see how I felt before I 355 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:00.880 try to get into the d tells of what this 356 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.440 guy is or did or whatever. But he was in 357 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:08.039 a wheelchair, handcuffed to the wheelchair, and acted like he 358 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.000 was having a hard time understanding the judge. He acted, 359 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.279 I mean, he didn't speak very clearly. I thought maybe 360 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:16.759 he was sort of whispering like that so that no 361 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:20.200 one could hear his voice, because if we hear his voice, 362 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.200 we will that'll be one more thing that we can say, Yeah, 363 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.680 that's him. But he was just a couple of weeks 364 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.200 before that. I guess they were surveilling him and he 365 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.039 was doing all kinds of stuff that was, you know, 366 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.720 more like a fifty year old according to Paul Holes, 367 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.000 And all of a sudden, he's this old old man 368 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:40.200 in a wheelchair. So I don't know if they had 369 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.640 him on some kind of sedative or what, but you know, 370 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:48.119 I'm like, really, give me a break. 371 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.839 Well, it was interesting talking to Richard because he believes 372 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.960 that he will talk, and I was surprised. Again, I 373 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:02.480 can't see in his given the background, not to say predictability, 374 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:07.359 but just given the non sympathetic story he could present. 375 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:09.720 No matter what he said, I thought it would be 376 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:13.000 I just thought it would be odd that he would talk. 377 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.960 Well, you know, here's what my initial reaction was. It's 378 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.519 sort of like, well, maybe what he's doing is just 379 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:25.480 trying to see kind of where everybody else sits, like 380 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:27.640 what position he's in. And of course he's in a 381 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:31.759 terrible position. But because he's the guy, and he you know, 382 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:33.359 he can sit there and deny it all day long, 383 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.799 but one hundred percent DNA match, it can't be. I 384 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.720 can't fathom that it could be anything other than guilty. 385 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.559 But you know, obviously in the court of law he 386 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.440 has to be. He's presumed innocent until he's proven guilty. 387 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:52.519 But you know, this is a president setting kind of 388 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:55.680 case when it comes to what's happened with DNA being 389 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.519 part of the equation. So we'll see what happens in 390 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.640 my book. I had said, why can't I see the reports? 391 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.599 Why can't I, you know, know what's in the paper files, 392 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.559 Because when we find this guy, it's not going to 393 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:09.960 have anything much to do with it with what's in 394 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.680 the files and the autopsy reports and different things. It's 395 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:15.720 going to be DNA and and that's all we're going 396 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:20.720 to need to know. And you know, I just can't set. 397 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:28.079 Sorry, go ahead, no, no, go ahead. What Richard had 398 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:32.079 said that that the the idea though that with the 399 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:37.200 the and all genealogy sweep, and when they had come 400 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.640 then narrowed it down, that they had still were using 401 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:44.359