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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. On March thirteenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty, in Ventura County, California, prominent attorney Lyman Robert Smith,
Speaker 2: on the verge of being appointed a superior Court judge
Speaker 2: and his wife, Sharlene were murdered in their home. Author
Speaker 2: Anne Penn, her actual name Laurie, is the couple's niece.
Speaker 2: She was close to her grandfather, Lymon's father, and saw
Speaker 2: the devastating impact the murders had on the family. Once
Speaker 2: she realized it was the work of Easteria rapists original
Speaker 2: night Stalker, Laurie vowed to do all she could to
Speaker 2: investigate and help solve the incredible serial murder mystery. She
Speaker 2: was hopeful, convinced that advances in familiar DNA, along with
Speaker 2: dogged law enforcement, would make an arrest, and she believed
Speaker 2: the killer still and had always lived in Sacramento, and
Speaker 2: that Easterio Rapist Original Nightstalker had possibly targeted her family
Speaker 2: members four hundred miles away in southern California to kill them.
Speaker 2: FBI investigator Paul Hols used DNA re recovered from one
Speaker 2: of the Easter Ay Rapists Original night Stalker crime scenes
Speaker 2: to first find the killer's great great grandparents and painstakingly
Speaker 2: worked through thousands of relatives to the present day. The
Speaker 2: investigation led to a seventy two year old retiree living
Speaker 2: in the Sacramento suburb of Citrus Heights. On April twenty fourth,
Speaker 2: Joseph James DiAngelo was arrested. Laurie will discuss the case,
Speaker 2: her reaction, her predictions and conclusions, and what she will
Speaker 2: do now regarding this still for her unfolding investigation, the
Speaker 2: subject that we're dealing with this evening and the book
Speaker 2: Easter Ay Rapist, Original Nightstalker, Golden State Killer Unmasked. A
Speaker 2: family member speaks out and Penn, welcome to the program.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for greeing this interview, and Penn,
Speaker 2: or as I should say, Lourie, welcome to the program.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Dan.
Speaker 5: How are you, Oh, very fine, Thank you very fine.
Speaker 5: Thank you. First off, I just got to get I
Speaker 5: haven't spoken to you personally. I wanted to save this
Speaker 5: moment and savor it for just your thoughts when you
Speaker 5: Where were you, How did you hear about this? What
Speaker 5: tell us about this? What was your reaction?
Speaker 1: Well, it was really amazing that I haven't been to
Speaker 1: Sacramento in a while to visit friends. And I was
Speaker 1: taking a break and was actually in Sacramento visiting and
Speaker 1: was staying with a friend, and I said, can I
Speaker 1: check the computer. I didn't bring my laptop, I didn't
Speaker 1: bring any devices anything with me, and so I was
Speaker 1: on the computer for a few minutes and realized something
Speaker 1: was happening with the case and that I was like, well,
Speaker 1: it sounds kind of vague and not really, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: And then I talked to one of the people on
Speaker 1: the pro boards that I kind of check in on
Speaker 1: about the case, and he reassured me. He said, I
Speaker 1: promise you, and it is one hundred percent real and
Speaker 1: it's one hundred percent DNA match. And that's when I
Speaker 1: could go to bed. It was three o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: By then I was trying to find deep tells an
Speaker 1: information for about three hours. So the next morning I
Speaker 1: was told they would have a press conference in Sacramento,
Speaker 1: and so it was just very surreal because I'm never
Speaker 1: in Sacramento except to visit friends once in a while.
Speaker 1: And I actually ended up at the home of a
Speaker 1: friend that, ironically enough, was the friend who when I
Speaker 1: was chased down the street in nineteen seventy one. She
Speaker 1: was her front door. I ran to I was actually
Speaker 1: in her home when I found this out. I was
Speaker 1: just like, wow, wow.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a wow moment. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She was like, she was like, I can't believe this.
Speaker 1: You know, I could talk about full circle, you know,
Speaker 1: when the fear began when I got chased, and it
Speaker 1: went on until all of a sudden, I'm relieved that
Speaker 1: this guy's sitting in a thefell a little box. I
Speaker 1: was actually driving on the freeway past J Street, and
Speaker 1: the next day after the announcement by all the different jurisdictions,
Speaker 1: and I have to tell you, I mentally had to
Speaker 1: uh sort of give him a what do you call it?
Speaker 1: With your hands down. Yeah, it was great relief to
Speaker 1: know he was just a few blocks away sitting in
Speaker 1: a box.
Speaker 5: Yeah. And you sound you sound a lot better too.
Speaker 5: I mean you sound different. I mean, I just interviewed
Speaker 5: Richard Shelby, and you know, I'm I'm sure, like you said,
Speaker 5: nobody's celebrating in law enforcement, but uh, it's relief and
Speaker 5: it's and it's a different response for you. This this
Speaker 5: means more. I mean, if it can mean more than
Speaker 5: it means to a dedicated detective who's lived with it
Speaker 5: his entire career and then be on right up to
Speaker 5: the present moment. But as we will hear from you,
Speaker 5: it it can and and it has it when an.
Speaker 1: Interesting rollercoaster of emotions.
Speaker 5: So I would say, certainly understatement. Now when you found
Speaker 5: out the name, and again I alluded to that you
Speaker 5: know this is now will what will Laurie do regarding
Speaker 5: this still for her unfolding investigation And I'm trying to
Speaker 5: be dramatic, but it's not untrue that this is still
Speaker 5: unfolding for you. You're still I know from the two
Speaker 5: books that you've written already, you're obsessed, obsession with this case,
Speaker 5: your need to solve this. You've done a lot of speculation,
Speaker 5: You've done a lot of predicting, You've done a lot
Speaker 5: of encouraging, we'll say, and criticism where criticism may be needed.
Speaker 5: But what happened when you heard the name Joseph James
Speaker 5: DeAngelo and then realized, as like Richard Shelby said, he's
Speaker 5: been there since the seventies in Citrus Heights. What was
Speaker 5: your reaction when you heard number one that you had
Speaker 5: predicted all along that he was from Sacramento, he still
Speaker 5: is in Sacramento, and so what was your reaction when
Speaker 5: number one you thought you were right, that was verified.
Speaker 5: What was your reaction to finding out where he had lived?
Speaker 1: Well, of course I wasn't the only one who had
Speaker 1: come to that conclusion. But I investigated the case, as
Speaker 1: you know, over time, for quite some time. And one
Speaker 1: day I picked up the phone and I called Larry Crompton,
Speaker 1: who I had previously contacted after I had read his
Speaker 1: book a couple of years back, and I said, here's
Speaker 1: what I think. And he was really great because he
Speaker 1: always listened and he always believed whatever it was you
Speaker 1: had to say, and he was always very supportive. And
Speaker 1: I said, this is what I think's I said, I
Speaker 1: think that he is from Sacramento. I think he lived
Speaker 1: in Sacramento at the time. I think he's still there.
Speaker 1: I think he's probably never been in any trouble, which
Speaker 1: is why we can't find his DNA. And it was
Speaker 1: terrifying to me to think that he was still not
Speaker 1: too far from where I lived, and I wrote a
Speaker 1: book about him, so that was kind of scary. But
Speaker 1: I wanted to get the word out to Sacramento people
Speaker 1: because I was so certain that he was still there.
Speaker 1: Because he was arrogant, he was living under everyone's nose.
Speaker 1: It's not untypical of a serial killer to try to
Speaker 1: fit into a community and just stay there and kind
Speaker 1: of hide in a family, which is what he did,
Speaker 1: and never leave that area. And what's really arrogant about
Speaker 1: him was that he picked Citrus Heights to buy a
Speaker 1: home in nineteen seventy nine and he lived in his
Speaker 1: attack areas. And that just irks me, no, and I
Speaker 1: can't tell you. I'm sure it irks all the victims
Speaker 1: and all the families that involved that he was just
Speaker 1: sitting there all this time and thought that he would
Speaker 1: never be caught, And he was even surprised when they
Speaker 1: arrested him because he really probably never thought they would
Speaker 1: figure it out.
Speaker 5: So now you talk about in your book, and you
Speaker 5: talked personally that you had a lot of conversations with
Speaker 5: Paul Holes, the lead investigator, And then I spoke to
Speaker 5: Richard Shelby yesterday last evening. On the interview, he said
Speaker 5: that credit really has to go to a lot of people,
Speaker 5: but especially Paul Holes for being innovative and also just
Speaker 5: the great work he was doing. And I don't know
Speaker 5: if he was official spokesman for the FBI, but he
Speaker 5: sure acted as such. Tell us about some of the
Speaker 5: conversations you had with Paul Holes and the relationship you developed,
Speaker 5: you know, even though you're on different sides of the
Speaker 5: equation here in this case. And also a little bit
Speaker 5: about the explanation. I have the explanation on what exactly
Speaker 5: he did, but tell us a little bit about your
Speaker 5: relationship with Paul Holes before this arrest.
Speaker 1: Well, the day that I old Larry Compton that I
Speaker 1: thought he was still in Sacramento, I think his job
Speaker 1: probably hit the floor because he was surprised that that
Speaker 1: was the conclusion I had come to. And within the
Speaker 1: hour after that conversation, he had me on the phone
Speaker 1: with some volunteers who worked the case in Sacramento and
Speaker 1: who were looking into different persons of interest over time,
Speaker 1: and they also had thought the same thing, or at
Speaker 1: least we're investigating people that were persons of interest from
Speaker 1: that area at the time. And that was a couple
Speaker 1: of years back. And so after that conversation, he also
Speaker 1: talked to Paul Holes and we set up a conversation.
Speaker 1: So I've been talking with him on and off for
Speaker 1: a couple of years as well. Typically he would call
Speaker 1: me when he was in the car on the way home,
Speaker 1: and we chat for however long it took him to
Speaker 1: get there. Sometimes it'd be thirty or forty minutes. And
Speaker 1: then he also, of course, as he's stated on television
Speaker 1: over and over, was in the same line frame as
Speaker 1: I was, and Larry was, and many others probably were,
Speaker 1: that he was still in Sacramento and that he just
Speaker 1: would hop on the freeway there, Highway eighty or Highway
Speaker 1: ninety nine and go to either Stockton on ninety nine
Speaker 1: or he would head out to conquer It or wherever
Speaker 1: he was going from Sacramento. So the relationship I had
Speaker 1: with Paul was we were trying to before they decided
Speaker 1: to go ahead and go to the genealogy site. We
Speaker 1: were talking about different other thoughts and theories about how
Speaker 1: there might be a connection from Sacramento to my uncle's
Speaker 1: murder and Charlene's murder. We were investigating different thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: I talked to the FBI and I talked to Paul
Speaker 1: about different theories that we had because a lot of
Speaker 1: people thought, well, gee, there might be some connection to
Speaker 1: Citrus Heights and to my grandfather and Lyman Smith, who
Speaker 1: lived in Citrus Heights. They lived there for until nineteen sixty,
Speaker 1: but they had moved in nineteen sixty, so they weren't
Speaker 1: there in the seventies at that time. So we were
Speaker 1: trying to figure out if there was some connection because
Speaker 1: my uncle was in Sacramento the week before he was murdered,
Speaker 1: and he had connections there and you know, development and
Speaker 1: different things that he was doing in business. So we
Speaker 1: were discussing a lot of different theories and a lot
Speaker 1: of different things over time before in the last two years.
Speaker 1: And then one of the things, of course that was
Speaker 1: always a topic of conversation was the DNA connection to
Speaker 1: you know, some kind of family member and how to
Speaker 1: go about doing that. So, you know, I just was anxious,
Speaker 1: like most people were, to find out, well, why is
Speaker 1: it taking so long, Why don't we just do it,
Speaker 1: you know, because people would talk about that kind of
Speaker 1: thing back in two thousand and five they started to
Speaker 1: you try to figure out how to connect criminals and
Speaker 1: through DNA. So anyway, it was a long wait.
Speaker 5: Now you let's talk more about Charlene Smith and the
Speaker 5: former Charlene Doyle, and also your uncle who you called
Speaker 5: uncle Bob and the only other people referred to him
Speaker 5: as Uncle Bob, and I talked about how he was
Speaker 5: a prominent lawyer and on the verge of being appointed
Speaker 5: to judge. Brother's a very very good possibility. In your investigation,
Speaker 5: you also talked about speaking with Colleen Cason, and so
Speaker 5: tell us more about this possible connection with Citrus Heights.
Speaker 5: Before you found out about Joseph James DeAngelo and his
Speaker 5: connection to Citrus Heights, you were already on that Citrus
Speaker 5: Heights trail. So, reviewing your book again, I'm amazed at
Speaker 5: some of the things that you have said there now
Speaker 5: in light of what has happened, do you think, as
Speaker 5: I alluded to in the in the show description, that
Speaker 5: there is a more sinister connection and reason for your
Speaker 5: uncle and your aunt being targeted in four? Like I say,
Speaker 5: four hundred miles away from Sacramento.
Speaker 1: Well, it's one of two things. It was either a
Speaker 1: major coincidence that they were, you know, related to people
Speaker 1: from Sacramento, that my grandfather and grandmother lived off the
Speaker 1: Highway ninety nine freeway there, or it was something that
Speaker 1: maybe this guy saw Charlene and Lyman in Sacramento when
Speaker 1: they were there visiting. They would visit my grandparents in
Speaker 1: you know, it's close to downtown Sacramento, so you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, or it's just a major coincidence. But
Speaker 1: we were we were looking into what the connections were
Speaker 1: and who who Lyman knew in Sacramento and things like
Speaker 1: that for a while, because you know, you never know
Speaker 1: what the one thing is it's going to connect it all,
Speaker 1: and the one thing that's gonna solve it. And obviously
Speaker 1: it was DNA. So I guess over time we'll find
Speaker 1: out you know, maybe we won't, maybe we'll never find
Speaker 1: out those details. I don't know what kind of details
Speaker 1: this guy might give up. And I know that the
Speaker 1: investigators have their hands full trying to figure out who,
Speaker 1: who did what and where and when and how it
Speaker 1: all connected. It just amazed me over time that as
Speaker 1: I said in the book, it was like I was
Speaker 1: doing some kind of dance with this guy, because when
Speaker 1: I found out he was in Auburn, that was shocking
Speaker 1: to me because I was married in Auburn in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 1: The reason I got married in Auburn was because I
Speaker 1: loved being up there. I used to go there for hikes,
Speaker 1: used to go off of Auburn, off the major road there.
Speaker 1: It was a mile from where this criminal was married.
Speaker 1: I was married in a church a mile away from
Speaker 1: where he was. He was a police officer in Auburn.
Speaker 1: While I was going there all the time after work
Speaker 1: to go hiking. I just it just blows my mind.
Speaker 1: I really thought that somewhere along the way that I
Speaker 1: probably crossed paths with the guy. And I always felt.
Speaker 5: That what I thought interesting when you, I was just
Speaker 5: going to mention the Auburn because that's what was startling
Speaker 5: to me, is these again seeming coincidences. But the other
Speaker 5: one I wanted to put out to you was that
Speaker 5: you know, given what you already know, I'm interviewing Richard
Speaker 5: and re reading his book as well, I realized this
Speaker 5: he has certain he's taunting police to a certain degree.
Speaker 5: He certainly thinks he's much smarter than a smarter police.
Speaker 5: He's employing things such as accents to throw off and
Speaker 5: all kinds of other techniques that he could have certainly
Speaker 5: learned quite a bit of information from being a police
Speaker 5: officer in the six years that he did to be
Speaker 5: able to throw off law enforcement. So he has some
Speaker 5: issue with thinking he's much smarter than law enforcement. Would
Speaker 5: have kind of extended to your uncle Bob, who was on,
Speaker 5: like I say, the rd ship of being appointed a
Speaker 5: superior court judge, a prominent lawyer, a former district attorney, again,
Speaker 5: a super popular person in the school with a woman
Speaker 5: ten years his junior, so in a very attractive woman.
Speaker 5: But also I just thought, more so the idea of
Speaker 5: law enforcement, where are the other crimes?
Speaker 1: There?
Speaker 5: There seemed to be no one of any not I
Speaker 5: don't say prominence, but again law enforcement, taunting of police,
Speaker 5: a possible judge, and the connection it seems even more
Speaker 5: or less actually less coincidental.
Speaker 1: I suppose he could have read something in the newspaper
Speaker 1: and decided that would be his target. Or he could
Speaker 1: very simply have just seen Charlene down by the ocean
Speaker 1: there where she was working and followed her home. Like
Speaker 1: I said, it's all speculation, but it'd be interesting. I
Speaker 1: would love for the guy to just stand up and say, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm the guy. I did it, and here's what I
Speaker 1: can tell you. I mean, that would be amazing, But
Speaker 1: I don't think that he's going to. From what it
Speaker 1: looks like at least BTK said yeah, I'm BTK, you
Speaker 1: got me. But this guy that wimpy performance in court
Speaker 1: the other day was really awful.
Speaker 5: I didn't get to see it, so what was the
Speaker 5: pathetic display? I know, he came in a wheelchair, looking
Speaker 5: all right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, looking like an old old man. Yeah, and according
Speaker 1: to what I've read, and I haven't had time, as
Speaker 1: you can imagine, in the last week, it's been insane
Speaker 1: and very busy, but I haven't had enough time to
Speaker 1: read enough about him yet. I actually wanted a moment
Speaker 1: to just sort of see how I felt before I
Speaker 1: try to get into the d tells of what this
Speaker 1: guy is or did or whatever. But he was in
Speaker 1: a wheelchair, handcuffed to the wheelchair, and acted like he
Speaker 1: was having a hard time understanding the judge. He acted,
Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't speak very clearly. I thought maybe
Speaker 1: he was sort of whispering like that so that no
Speaker 1: one could hear his voice, because if we hear his voice,
Speaker 1: we will that'll be one more thing that we can say, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's him. But he was just a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: before that. I guess they were surveilling him and he
Speaker 1: was doing all kinds of stuff that was, you know,
Speaker 1: more like a fifty year old according to Paul Holes,
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, he's this old old man
Speaker 1: in a wheelchair. So I don't know if they had
Speaker 1: him on some kind of sedative or what, but you know,
Speaker 1: I'm like, really, give me a break.
Speaker 5: Well, it was interesting talking to Richard because he believes
Speaker 5: that he will talk, and I was surprised. Again, I
Speaker 5: can't see in his given the background, not to say predictability,
Speaker 5: but just given the non sympathetic story he could present.
Speaker 5: No matter what he said, I thought it would be
Speaker 5: I just thought it would be odd that he would talk.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, here's what my initial reaction was. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like, well, maybe what he's doing is just
Speaker 1: trying to see kind of where everybody else sits, like
Speaker 1: what position he's in. And of course he's in a
Speaker 1: terrible position. But because he's the guy, and he you know,
Speaker 1: he can sit there and deny it all day long,
Speaker 1: but one hundred percent DNA match, it can't be. I
Speaker 1: can't fathom that it could be anything other than guilty.
Speaker 1: But you know, obviously in the court of law he
Speaker 1: has to be. He's presumed innocent until he's proven guilty.
Speaker 1: But you know, this is a president setting kind of
Speaker 1: case when it comes to what's happened with DNA being
Speaker 1: part of the equation. So we'll see what happens in
Speaker 1: my book. I had said, why can't I see the reports?
Speaker 1: Why can't I, you know, know what's in the paper files,
Speaker 1: Because when we find this guy, it's not going to
Speaker 1: have anything much to do with it with what's in
Speaker 1: the files and the autopsy reports and different things. It's
Speaker 1: going to be DNA and and that's all we're going
Speaker 1: to need to know. And you know, I just can't set.
Speaker 5: Sorry, go ahead, no, no, go ahead. What Richard had
Speaker 5: said that that the the idea though that with the
Speaker 5: the and all genealogy sweep, and when they had come
Speaker 5: then narrowed it down, that they had still were using
Speaker 5: circumstantial evidence to be able to narrow things down because
Speaker 5: they had the fourth right.
Speaker 1: Oh, sure, of course they had to do old fashioned
Speaker 1: police work on top of everything. They found out it
Speaker 1: was in Auburn, they found out he was fired, they
Speaker 1: found out, you know, all kinds of things about him
Speaker 1: and whether or not it's fit, and it's fit. So, yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely had to do the old fashioned police work to
Speaker 1: go along with the DNA. But but my point was
Speaker 1: in my book was like all these reports that they've
Speaker 1: had and all this information they've had for forty years,
Speaker 1: and they haven't really until recently shared like pictures of
Speaker 1: what he took or the china, all this different stuff.
Speaker 1: They kept it pretty close to the vest. And so
Speaker 1: my point was just that you know, if you release
Speaker 1: this information, you get it out there, maybe we can
Speaker 1: solve this case. And eventually, when we do find him,
Speaker 1: the DNA will match and that'll be a done deal.
Speaker 1: And that was really my point.
Speaker 5: Well, I think, but I do think with Richard h Well,
Speaker 5: I was speaking with Richard. He had mentioned that that
Speaker 5: at one point he had given the he was given
Speaker 5: the records for safekeeping, and that didn't have the ability
Speaker 5: to store them correctly, so he gave them back That
Speaker 5: same Sheriff's department when he asked for those records again
Speaker 5: you know, the lead investigator, you know, like he's rights,
Speaker 5: they wouldn't have had him otherwise. Then he was refused
Speaker 5: those same reports. So it seems politics really sets the
Speaker 5: you know, dictates basically what will happen. And so what
Speaker 5: I thought was fascinating and what you mentioned today is
Speaker 5: actually speaking with Paul Hole so many times and being
Speaker 5: taken seriously by the current law enforcement handling this case.
Speaker 5: So that was encouraging to me. And I think as
Speaker 5: a result of the volunteer organizations that you mentioned and
Speaker 5: all the people out there on message boards and not
Speaker 5: that everything was good that was done on message boards
Speaker 5: and the speculation, but I think, police, this is a
Speaker 5: huge day. I mentioned this yesterday. This is a huge
Speaker 5: day for law enforcement, you know, a positive day for
Speaker 5: law enforcement. So I think that. So I definitely think
Speaker 5: that the good things will come from this, and they will,
Speaker 5: I think again go to the public and ask for
Speaker 5: their help because.
Speaker 1: They oh yeah, definitely, they.
Speaker 5: Realized that you know, they have nothing to do, they
Speaker 5: have everything to gain from doing that.
Speaker 1: Right. I have to say too, before I get sidetracked,
Speaker 1: the people on those message boards, there are some incredible
Speaker 1: sleuths out there. The detail and the investigations that they did,
Speaker 1: and they never wavered, and they just never quit, and
Speaker 1: they pushed and pushed and pushed, and I had people
Speaker 1: contacting me personally from all over the place. It was
Speaker 1: amazing some of the things that they were looking at.
Speaker 1: And I was just grateful and amazed. They were wonderful.
Speaker 5: So I have to tell you that you had mentioned
Speaker 5: a volunteer organization is do they have a name that
Speaker 5: you would like to mention as well?
Speaker 1: Well? The pro boards, which is the one of the sites,
Speaker 1: is that e AR I guess it's E R S
Speaker 1: O N S GSK. Anyway, it's easy to google it.
Speaker 1: I may have an extra s in there, but yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's that's where I would go, you know, just
Speaker 1: to check in and see what was going on. And
Speaker 1: like I said, there were a lot of amazing researchers
Speaker 1: and people. There's a person I worked with that's even
Speaker 1: in Canada, in your neck of the woods, and he
Speaker 1: was an incredible researcher. Also he helped occasionally with some
Speaker 1: other projects too so and interestingly enough, his last name
Speaker 1: is Smith, So lots of Smiths out there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what did you think of the of DeAngelo's age.
Speaker 1: I was wishing he was sixty two, and the reason
Speaker 1: is because I want him to be punished longer, and
Speaker 1: I don't want him to get away with acting like
Speaker 1: he's a wimpy old man. You know, that was within
Speaker 1: the range. Everybody said, well, he's probably between sixty two
Speaker 1: and seventy five. And I was really hopeful because he
Speaker 1: seemed so immature to me in his actions and how
Speaker 1: he sounded, and I was really hoping that he was younger.
Speaker 1: And I did say that I thought he graduated about
Speaker 1: seventy three, and I was not correct about that. And
Speaker 1: I wish that he was younger so he could sit
Speaker 1: in a box a lot longer, because what he did
Speaker 1: to all the people involved, not only murdering people, but
Speaker 1: the victims that were actually attacked by this man, all
Speaker 1: the victims that were collateral damage out here, like myself
Speaker 1: who watched family members struggle with this, all the husband's wives,
Speaker 1: all the people that are out there that were affected personally,
Speaker 1: and then also the community itself was absolutely in terror
Speaker 1: and everywhere he went, and you know, he deserves to
Speaker 1: be punished a very long time. I relished the idea
Speaker 1: that a police officer in Sacramento County, where he began
Speaker 1: his raps, I relished the idea that he's sitting in
Speaker 1: a jail cell and that officer can come in and
Speaker 1: flip the lights on and wake him up any time
Speaker 1: he wants to. And he has absolutely no power and
Speaker 1: absolutely no control. And I'm very happy about that.
Speaker 5: What's particularly sad about your uncle and your aunt's murder
Speaker 5: was that it was attributed to a business associated, a
Speaker 5: business associated, pardon me, And also that there was an
Speaker 5: incredible amount of speculation, and some of it based on fact,
Speaker 5: but regardless, it almost seemed like a tone of not almost,
Speaker 5: it seemed like a tone of they had it coming
Speaker 5: to him for some reason, either shady business or extramarital
Speaker 5: affairs or something of that. Still blaming, right, tell us
Speaker 5: about that particular effect on your family, not only is
Speaker 5: it murder. And then you say that your grandfather never
Speaker 5: really got to know the truth that it was attributed
Speaker 5: to the East Area rapist, original nightstalker, but you found
Speaker 5: out at some point.
Speaker 1: But well, he knew. He died knowing that it was
Speaker 1: a serial killer. They had figured the DNA connection. He
Speaker 1: died in two thousand and one. But yeah, it was
Speaker 1: one of the major reasons I actually wrote this book
Speaker 1: was because it irritated me. It bothered me a lot
Speaker 1: that anytime that Lynman and Charlie Smith were mentioned in
Speaker 1: any publication, there was all the speculation about what type
Speaker 1: of people they were and whether a business associate or
Speaker 1: bad deals or something had happened. Now, everybody in the
Speaker 1: world who works for themselves or tries a business business
Speaker 1: venture has the possibility of failing or having investments go
Speaker 1: wrong or whatever, and the speculation really irritated me, and
Speaker 1: I felt like I did to say, hey, these people
Speaker 1: are victims of a murderer, of a serial killer, and
Speaker 1: they were way more than what is being written about them,
Speaker 1: and all the sensationalism that was happening at the time
Speaker 1: and beyond even it was repeated year after year, even
Speaker 1: till two thousand and I think twelve one of them
Speaker 1: I quoted in my book because it was just so
Speaker 1: inaccurate and so wrong, and they actually act like the
Speaker 1: victims brought this on to themselves by anything in their lives.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a crime in itself to blame
Speaker 1: any of the victims. There've been stories about other murder victims,
Speaker 1: and you know, this is not something that they did
Speaker 1: to themselves in any way, shape or form. And so
Speaker 1: I had to try to let people know what human
Speaker 1: beings they were and what wonderful people they all were,
Speaker 1: and that they were you know, professional people they were
Speaker 1: in the medical profession, the lawyers, they were all kinds
Speaker 1: of wonderful people, psychiatrists. They were just people who were
Speaker 1: living or starting their lives and who deserved to be alive.
Speaker 1: And this guy was randomly attacking and took them away.
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Speaker 5: arrange that. Let's talk more about your uncle Bob and
Speaker 5: his wife Charlene and the life and the people that
Speaker 5: they were, but also what this did to your family,
Speaker 5: What this did to your grandparents that you were especially
Speaker 5: close to. What did this do to your grandfather and
Speaker 5: your grandmother and your entire family, As you write in
Speaker 5: the book.
Speaker 1: Well, I kind only speak for the family that was
Speaker 1: in Sacramento, but it was it's difficult to watch my
Speaker 1: grandfather be so heartbroken. He was very proud of both
Speaker 1: of his sons, and he especially was proud of the
Speaker 1: fact that Lyman Robert was doing so well in his career, etc.
Speaker 1: He was just heartbroken. He never spoke about it until
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. We were in the car when my grandmother
Speaker 1: was in the hospital and she was she'd had a stroke,
Speaker 1: and we had a couple of days where we were
Speaker 1: trying to figure out if she was going to live
Speaker 1: or die. And I drove him to the hospital back
Speaker 1: and forth, and I stayed with him in his home
Speaker 1: and on one of those trips back and forth, he
Speaker 1: started talking about Lyman, his son, and was telling me
Speaker 1: about when he was a little boy, he almost died
Speaker 1: from appendicitis. He said that his wife kept telling him
Speaker 1: he needs to go to the hospital, needs to go
Speaker 1: to the hospital. And of course, my grandfather was a
Speaker 1: very stubborn guy, and he said, oh, no, no, he'll
Speaker 1: be fine, he'll be fine, and his wife, Wilma, said no, no, no,
Speaker 1: he really needs to go to hospital. And I guess
Speaker 1: they kind of went around a while about that. And
Speaker 1: usually he told me that he would have just said no, no,
Speaker 1: but that day there was something in his wife's tone
Speaker 1: or expression that he actually took Miman to the hospital
Speaker 1: and if he hadn't, he would have died then. And
Speaker 1: I just listened to him and I was just amazed
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden he was just telling me
Speaker 1: this story. And that was the only time he really
Speaker 1: talked about how Limon almost died when he was a child.
Speaker 1: So he did get to grow up, and he did
Speaker 1: get to have a career, he did get to have
Speaker 1: his children, and so, you know, but he did really
Speaker 1: work hard and really work a lot, and it was
Speaker 1: almost like he knew he had to, you know, fit
Speaker 1: it all in really fast because he was really pushing
Speaker 1: all the time. So anyway, my grandfather was very upset
Speaker 1: about it. Of course I didn't talk about it for
Speaker 1: a long time, but he did come to my wedding.
Speaker 1: I told that story in the book about how he was.
Speaker 1: And we were in Auburn at the church and it
Speaker 1: was raining and the rain was pouring down on the church.
Speaker 1: And after I was married, we were walking out of
Speaker 1: the church and to the vestibule and my grandfather was
Speaker 1: in the vestibule with my grandmother and he was sobbing uncontrollably,
Speaker 1: just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed, and nobody could console him.
Speaker 1: And that was only seven or eight weeks after his
Speaker 1: son was murdered. So but they showed up at the
Speaker 1: wedding and did the best they could. And he had said, no,
Speaker 1: we'll be there. My grandmother grandmother said oh no, no, no,
Speaker 1: we can't come, we can't come, and he said no,
Speaker 1: we'll be there because he knew it was important. So
Speaker 1: they came. And yeah, so it was a tough day.
Speaker 5: But anyway, what was there I mean, obviously it was
Speaker 5: a negative reaction, but what was the reac action Once
Speaker 5: this case picked up steam and the business associate was accused.
Speaker 5: What how devastating again, increasingly devastating or added frustration or anger.
Speaker 1: I imagine it probably didn't make much sense to my grandfather.
Speaker 1: I heard about it from my grandmother. She's the one
Speaker 1: who would mention once in a while something about the case.
Speaker 1: And we heard about his business associate. You know, it
Speaker 1: was very frustrating because it seemed like after they spent
Speaker 1: all that time trying to figure out if I don't
Speaker 1: want to say his name, because he had enough bad
Speaker 1: publicity over time. I'm sure he is a really nice guy.
Speaker 1: The good thing that happened for him after this was
Speaker 1: after they released him from jail after having him in
Speaker 1: jail for a year and dismissing the charges that they
Speaker 1: didn't have evidence enough evidence to go to trial. But
Speaker 1: you know, and it was financially ruining for him and
Speaker 1: his family, but his wife stood by his side, and
Speaker 1: so so I know my grandfather was just like very
Speaker 1: frustrated by it because you want to find who did this,
Speaker 1: and they went off the wrong direction and Ventura County
Speaker 1: and I know that they've investigated it over time, but
Speaker 1: unfortunately at the time it appears that the case went
Speaker 1: cold after after those two years of investigating the wrong person.
Speaker 1: So I mean, that's what they do. They have to investigate,
Speaker 1: they have to go with what leads. Unfortunately, there was
Speaker 1: a pastor that that had started talking about how this
Speaker 1: guy had confessed and they had they spent the year
Speaker 1: trying to figure out if he was a reliable witness,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't. He always tried to insert himself into
Speaker 1: cases before. So unfortunately it went cold in Ventura County
Speaker 1: as far as we could tell. And I know when
Speaker 1: I called Ventura County in two thousand and sixteen at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the year.
Speaker 4: They.
Speaker 1: What they did was they said that they did not
Speaker 1: have money or they did not have a cold case unit,
Speaker 1: and that they were investigating any leads that would come in.
Speaker 1: But they, you know, really didn't have any cold case unit.
Speaker 1: So it seemed pretty cold to me even in twenty
Speaker 1: sixteen until the FBI announced they were re entering the case,
Speaker 1: and that was in June of twenty sixteen.
Speaker 5: In retrospect, now that I know this still you haven't
Speaker 5: wrapped yourself around all the new information. But I asked
Speaker 5: this of Richard Shell because I was curious. What do
Speaker 5: you think about eyewitness accounts and composite drawings and their
Speaker 5: effect on an investigation, positive or negative.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, this was the seventies and that was
Speaker 1: pretty much what they had to go with the composites.
Speaker 1: Amazingly enough, a lot of them look sort of like him.
Speaker 1: So some of the witnesses who saw a strange guy
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood or you know, talk to investigators after
Speaker 1: the attacks did have an interesting perspective on it. And again,
Speaker 1: it was the seventies, there wasn't much. You know, they
Speaker 1: still have to work from eyewitness accounts and sometimes they're
Speaker 1: right and sometimes they aren't. But interestingly enough, the pictures
Speaker 1: of the by Sailua Ransacker looked like him, and I
Speaker 1: imagine that was from mc gowan's description. The detective who
Speaker 1: was a flashlight got shot and his hand I guess
Speaker 1: was hurt.
Speaker 5: But yeah, it's interesting too. Richard Shelby chronicles the Vasilia Ransacker,
Speaker 5: and of course now there's pretty well a positive connection
Speaker 5: with the Visilia Ransacker. Of course, Well, they can see
Speaker 5: a lot of this perpetrator's early behavior and then evolution
Speaker 5: into a serial killer, can't they, right, Well, he.
Speaker 1: Was certainly an angry person. I heard something yesterday and
Speaker 1: I didn't catch the whole thing on the news, but
Speaker 1: Paul Holmes was talking about how after they had caught
Speaker 1: him shoplifting in Auburn and he was a cop at
Speaker 1: the time, that he threatened the chief and he actually
Speaker 1: was outside, and I wish I had seen the whole description,
Speaker 1: but he was outside the chief's house and his daughter,
Speaker 1: the chief's daughter was like, there's a man out there
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And so that probably didn't help him
Speaker 1: stay on the forest, that's for sure, because he was
Speaker 1: threatening the chief. And that was just something I heard,
Speaker 1: Like I said, very briefly. I wish I had more
Speaker 1: details on it, and I will find them. But for
Speaker 1: him to be outside the chief's house when he's being
Speaker 1: you know, investigated for shop lifting and he's about to
Speaker 1: lose his career in law enforcement, there's something wrong with
Speaker 1: the guy, you know. I mean, somebody should have known that.
Speaker 1: I mean, even if he was taking a hammer and
Speaker 1: dog repellent from the store and they could write it
Speaker 1: off in their minds by saying, well, yeah, he probably
Speaker 1: could use that on the job. He could have you know,
Speaker 1: used it for dogs. When he's a police officer whatever.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, he was threatening the chief
Speaker 1: and he was let go from this position. So I'm
Speaker 1: just surprised. I guess in a way that somehow the
Speaker 1: dots were not connected along the way, you know, when
Speaker 1: it came to his behavior at the time, and that
Speaker 1: was nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and the murders were in nineteen eighty. So again,
Speaker 5: well they were.
Speaker 1: In seventy nine. Also, they were in seventy nine, and
Speaker 1: they were also in seventy eight if you look at
Speaker 1: the maggiorium, so sure you.
Speaker 5: Know nobody was referring to your your aunt uncle specifically, right, yeah,
Speaker 5: again law enforcement again, you know, again this is that
Speaker 5: representation of everything that you know ruined his life. It
Speaker 5: seemed like he not that I interpret it, but it
Speaker 5: seemed like he didn't think it was such a big deal. Obviously, again,
Speaker 5: this his arrogance and then you know, to be threatening
Speaker 5: a police chief or think that you're not going to
Speaker 5: get repercussions. It seems from when I had read it,
Speaker 5: he didn't. He didn't think to be too phased about
Speaker 5: what he had done.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know. I mean, there, you know,
Speaker 1: for him to be that angry and that acting out
Speaker 1: a lot. Apparently. Yeah, it's amazing somebody didn't say, hey,
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with that guy, you know, especially in
Speaker 1: Cuitrus Heights when he was living next door to people
Speaker 1: and such. But I guess he was probably inconsistently maybe
Speaker 1: an okay guy and then other time maybe not. So
Speaker 1: I have to read more about him.
Speaker 5: What do you think about when you talk geographically? You know,
Speaker 5: Richard Shelby talked about being able to at one point
Speaker 5: almost pinning down what neighborhood he would strike in. Next
Speaker 5: you looked at this geographically in terms of the attacks,
Speaker 5: What do you think now since there's been this arrest
Speaker 5: and he surprises to what you had thought.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you can't be right about everything when
Speaker 1: you're speculating, right, and I was incorrect about where he
Speaker 1: was from. But as far as like what part of
Speaker 1: Sacramento he was in, I guess probably I really never
Speaker 1: thought that we would still find him sitting in the
Speaker 1: middle of the attack area. But again too, when you
Speaker 1: look at the geographical area of Sacramento, I mean there's
Speaker 1: a lot of waterways, there's a lot of the American River,
Speaker 1: the Sacramento River, for the creeks and waterways. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of that in Sacramento, So it wasn't a far
Speaker 1: stretch for me to think that he could find his
Speaker 1: way through the entire town in the creeks, and so
Speaker 1: I really concentrated on that a lot and tried. But
Speaker 1: then I realized too that that was all over Sacramento.
Speaker 1: When I found out that he was in Citrus Heights,
Speaker 1: it was sort of like, yeah, okay, I get that.
Speaker 1: You know, it was not a surprise. It really wasn't,
Speaker 1: not at all just arrogant.
Speaker 5: Do you think you wrote in a book that you
Speaker 5: thought there might be some possible connection with Lake Tahoe
Speaker 5: and the cabin there? Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 1: Well? I mean, like Tahoe is somewhere that people go
Speaker 1: from Sacramento and San Francisco, La. They drive up and
Speaker 1: they you know, come hang out. I wouldn't be surprised
Speaker 1: if he'd done that, especially since he was from the
Speaker 1: Auburn area. What's interesting to me about where They showed
Speaker 1: pictures of where he grew up or where he was,
Speaker 1: and it's you know, a lot of I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of outdoor area. It's real you know, rural, so,
Speaker 1: but you know, he probably did come up here on occasion,
Speaker 1: so did my whole family, so did a lot of
Speaker 1: people in Sacramento. So it's hard to say if there
Speaker 1: was any kind of connection that way.
Speaker 5: In your investigation. When you look at the murders of
Speaker 5: your aunt and uncle, were they significantly or in any
Speaker 5: real Yeah, and in any significant way different than the
Speaker 5: other murders once he began murdering, was there any difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've talked about that before, and most people who
Speaker 1: know the case know that in nineteen seventy nine, he
Speaker 1: the murders of Offerman and Manning, doctors Ferman and Manning.
Speaker 1: They didn't go I think the way he planned exactly
Speaker 1: he ended up shooting them. But in my uncle and
Speaker 1: Charlene's murder, they i think went pretty much the way
Speaker 1: he had planned it. But he also left them not
Speaker 1: covered when he bludgeoned them, and seemed to learn from that,
Speaker 1: because it's I'm sure it was not. It was rather messy,
Speaker 1: but they the next murders, he did cover the couple,
Speaker 1: and so he also took his bindings with him after
Speaker 1: the Smith murder, So he learned something from all the
Speaker 1: publicity and all the articles about what he had done
Speaker 1: and changed some of what he did on the next couple.
Speaker 5: So he must have been pretty gratified or enjoyed not
Speaker 5: being detected for those murders for your uncle.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, Well, I mean being a
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people thought that he was
Speaker 1: ex military, and he was. He was an ex cop.
Speaker 1: He was actually committing these crimes, these attacks in Sacramento
Speaker 1: while he was a police officer, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people say, x coup. Well he was actually an active
Speaker 1: police officer when he was committing the rapes in Sacramento
Speaker 1: and other places in nineteen seventy nine, seventy six through
Speaker 1: seventy nine. He was an Auburn.
Speaker 5: So yeah, that's chilling. And and all of the information
Speaker 5: valuable information is he learned as a law enforcement personnel, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so when he was doing the running around
Speaker 1: in southern California, he was he was not only learning,
Speaker 1: but he was doing the same kind of what did
Speaker 1: Paul Hols had a name for it yesterday, where he
Speaker 1: was just setting it up so that people in different jurisdictions,
Speaker 1: which back in the day they didn't speak to each
Speaker 1: other as much as they do now, and they didn't
Speaker 1: have the type of technology they have now, and all
Speaker 1: that he knew that that there was a better chance
Speaker 1: he would get away with it if he moved from
Speaker 1: place to place and he tried to change something of
Speaker 1: his m O. And so he thought it was really smart.
Speaker 1: And I sure wish they'd caught him sooner because he's
Speaker 1: not smart.
Speaker 5: Well, he wasn't smart enough, no.
Speaker 1: Smart enough back in the day when they were investigating things.
Speaker 1: It's not the same thing as it is today today.
Speaker 1: You couldn't get away with what he got away with.
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy couldn't have you know, their cell phones taking
Speaker 1: pictures of him.
Speaker 5: But it is nice that the advances in d A technology,
Speaker 5: not that they have been rapid, but there have been
Speaker 5: incredible advances in DNA technology since its announcement in the
Speaker 5: early eighties. This killer would not know of that, so
Speaker 5: he of course was very particular, and so he knew
Speaker 5: of other technologies techniques that the police had for collecting evidence.
Speaker 5: He had no idea what DNA would would would achieve
Speaker 5: what it would have become. Right when did you find out?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 5: We spoke about this before, and but I've spoken to
Speaker 5: other authors as well, because this is a fairly new development,
Speaker 5: this being able to link up families through DNA, the
Speaker 5: familial DNA. When did you find out the FBI was
Speaker 5: employing this.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it had been talked about by various
Speaker 1: people in law enforcement over time. I had just I
Speaker 1: was just surprised that it took him a while to
Speaker 1: be able to I think there was a lot of
Speaker 1: privacy issues that they were still considering trying to figure out.
Speaker 1: But it's definitely been on the list of things to do.
Speaker 1: What I wrote in my book back in I think
Speaker 1: it was two thousand and five. Tony Fdacas, he's a
Speaker 1: PhD who developed the latest technique called biogeographic testing. His
Speaker 1: technique was to take one tenth of one percent of
Speaker 1: a person's DNA to determine the physical characteristic. So I
Speaker 1: was wondering when they were going to show us a
Speaker 1: picture of the DNA phenotyping to show us what he
Speaker 1: looked like. And this is back in two thousand and five,
Speaker 1: and it was supposed to be ninety two percent accurate
Speaker 1: at that time, two thousand and five, to show us
Speaker 1: what the guy would look like. And I couldn't figure
Speaker 1: out why we weren't getting that picture, I thought, well,
Speaker 1: maybe they're not showing it to us because they're afraid
Speaker 1: they're going to scare them off. So yeah, so I
Speaker 1: know that they've known for a long time more about
Speaker 1: what he looked like. So, but I do have some questions.
Speaker 1: I have to tell you about some of the evidence
Speaker 1: that seemed to be talked about a lot, and it
Speaker 1: was talked about a lot. The papers that he dropped
Speaker 1: in Danville, I believe. And the thing that I wanted
Speaker 1: to know, and I mentioned it not too long ago,
Speaker 1: was did they ever test it for epithelial cells? Do
Speaker 1: they know for a fact that it really was him
Speaker 1: who dropped it? Maybe he did drop it, maybe did
Speaker 1: it on purpose to try to get him to talk
Speaker 1: to themselves about the drawing that he did, and also
Speaker 1: the papers he wrote about being mad and so on,
Speaker 1: and so I want to know do they know for
Speaker 1: a fact? And I really want to know whether they
Speaker 1: were even his papers, That's one thing. And I have
Speaker 1: a few questions. You can imagine. We had some people
Speaker 1: ask me. Let's see, what did they say? Did he
Speaker 1: stop killing when he became a father? I think so.
Speaker 1: I think that he took a break. He had three daughters,
Speaker 1: one of them interesting and was born in eighty one,
Speaker 1: and I think his wife was pregnant at the time
Speaker 1: he was did a murder, and then also in eighty
Speaker 1: six the same thing, his wife was pregnant. So I
Speaker 1: think that he did stop because he had a family.
Speaker 1: Somebody else asked me, let's see, and they asked me
Speaker 1: if I thought he'll talk. I think eventually he might talk.
Speaker 1: I think he's trying to assess kind of where he
Speaker 1: sits at the moment before he opens his mouth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody's got lot very interesting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, I can imagine he would have incredible amount
Speaker 5: and I don't think it would end any anytime soon.
Speaker 5: It wouldn't be satisfied by just a few answers. What
Speaker 5: we got a mentioned before we go is also that
Speaker 5: Paul Holes again Richard Shelby gave him a lot of credit.
Speaker 5: But you sent me an article as well talking about
Speaker 5: Paul Holes explaining what really happened is that they had
Speaker 5: the DNA, but a sweep of databases. Like you say,
Speaker 5: he didn't have a record even despite this altercation when
Speaker 5: he was a police officer, he didn't have a record
Speaker 5: as a result. So Paul Holes had an idea. He
Speaker 5: had an idea derived from somebody else's idea, and then
Speaker 5: he applied that idea to use a sweep of just
Speaker 5: general genetic sites, so like ancestry dot com. And that's
Speaker 5: not the one they used, apparently they used, so it's
Speaker 5: another one regardless, I have it down here somewhere, but
Speaker 5: just a general sweep, and then found the great great
Speaker 5: grandparents and went back.
Speaker 1: Several It was actually his great great great grandparents that
Speaker 1: went to eighteen hundred exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so then divided it up into sort of
Speaker 5: family trees and then be able to eliminate and investigate
Speaker 5: through that. And that's what took. It seems like a
Speaker 5: fair amount of time to be able to do that.
Speaker 1: Well, what I found interesting was that they said in
Speaker 1: their public announcement that this guy was not on their
Speaker 1: radar until six days prior to his arrest. That's right,
Speaker 1: six days, yeah, and so I was thinking, hmm, But anyway,
Speaker 1: so I'm yeah, just so you know too, I have
Speaker 1: to say that Larry Crompton is the person who talked
Speaker 1: to Paul Hole's way back and they discussed trying to
Speaker 1: match the DNA, trying to get samples to the right
Speaker 1: people to match the DNA and they're the ones who
Speaker 1: actually put it all together when it came to matching
Speaker 1: the Easteria rapist with the original Nightstalker. And so you know,
Speaker 1: of course Larry was retired, but he was the one
Speaker 1: who said, hey, why don't you do this? And so
Speaker 1: it was that and working with Paul Hols, Larry's never stopped.
Speaker 1: And I need to make sure that everyone understands how
Speaker 1: much this man put into this case over time. He
Speaker 1: has never stopped. And I know that Richard Shelby has
Speaker 1: also been very vocal, and Carol Daily and a lot
Speaker 1: of the people that are in Sacramento and a lot
Speaker 1: of the people that are in other jurisdictions. I never
Speaker 1: spoke to them, so I don't know their names, but
Speaker 1: I've seen them on television. But they've all worked so
Speaker 1: hard and never stopped. So yeah, it took. It took
Speaker 1: It took a community, and it took a community not
Speaker 1: only of the people, but of law enforcement as well.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I congratulated Detective Shelby because it is a
Speaker 5: group effort of law enforcement and other people, but you know,
Speaker 5: a law enforcement And then we also just briefly spoke
Speaker 5: it because he said he didn't want to make it
Speaker 5: sound like sour grapes, but I was angered and as
Speaker 5: I'm sure some other people were too when credit is
Speaker 5: not given. And Larry Crompton was on the program, the
Speaker 5: first person that talked about East Ary rapist and his
Speaker 5: book Sudden Terror, which is just essential, along with Richard
Speaker 5: Shelby's book Hunting a Psychopath Essential. And then we have
Speaker 5: you know, a tabloid television program announcing very very early
Speaker 5: on after the rest that Barbara McNamara's book Into the
Speaker 5: Dark in the Dark of the Night, pardon me, Michelle McNamara,
Speaker 5: and it was receiving receiving credit for naming TMZ said
Speaker 5: that she named the suspect, but then it turned into
Speaker 5: all of the articles just again using sort of the
Speaker 5: headline to mention how important the book was. And without
Speaker 5: the book, the investigation never would have done what it did.
Speaker 1: None of us believe that, yeah, none of us believed
Speaker 1: that it was attributed to that book, but and that's
Speaker 1: what they've said. Police law enforcement has said that, no,
Speaker 1: there was nothing in that book that contributed to what
Speaker 1: happened with the DNA. I mean, that was going to
Speaker 1: happen regardless and so that's really what the record should state.
Speaker 1: But the fact is that it did take it an
Speaker 1: entire community, and and Michelle McNamara did call attention to
Speaker 1: the case, there's no doubt, and so she deserves credit
Speaker 1: for that. And it's too bad that she's not here
Speaker 1: to see it, because I know she put her heart
Speaker 1: and soul into it as well as many of us did.
Speaker 1: And you know, that's why I was compelled to write
Speaker 1: my book and and try to get to the Sacramento
Speaker 1: audience and say who did you know?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: Did you know this guy? You know? It was just
Speaker 1: something I had to do. And I know that she
Speaker 1: felt she had to do what she did as well.
Speaker 1: So and there are they're victims, Jane Carson Sandler who
Speaker 1: wrote a book about what happened to her, and there
Speaker 1: are other people out there who, you know, really did
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven live and breed this case and
Speaker 1: try to figure out who this guy was. So it
Speaker 1: was an absolute concerted effort. You could feel the energy
Speaker 1: moving towards this resolve. And so I'm very glad that
Speaker 1: that happened. And I just wish he was younger and
Speaker 1: he could be punished longer.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that he just might be fit enough.
Speaker 5: And then I think maybe the state might just be
Speaker 5: helping him have his health maintained during this period so
Speaker 5: that he can, as you say, and as you wish,
Speaker 5: to sort of live out his life behind bars after
Speaker 5: escaping justice for so many years.
Speaker 1: I also feel sorry for his family, but there's nothing
Speaker 1: that anyone can do.
Speaker 5: So certainly people will think about, oh, my god, what
Speaker 5: was running through his daughter's minds, his ex wife's mind,
Speaker 5: his granddaughter's mind that lived with him in the home,
Speaker 5: friends and acquaintances. I'm sure it will be shocked, surprised, definitely,
Speaker 5: No matter what temperament he would have, they would still
Speaker 5: be certainly surprised at this.
Speaker 1: Then he could go to that bar, that he could
Speaker 1: be this evil.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely yeah. And again, in terms of sympathy, as
Speaker 5: I said, I can't see him talking. I can't see
Speaker 5: how he can, you know, have any sympathy. Anyone can
Speaker 5: have any sympathy towards him and his story, and Richard
Speaker 5: Shelby and Larry Prompt have all done a good job.
Speaker 5: I don't think anybody could ever have any sympathy for
Speaker 5: this killer, given the circumstances and all the facts of
Speaker 5: this case. There's no way, so I can't see what
Speaker 5: he would again from opening his mouth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that he may eventually talk because
Speaker 1: I think that he's arrogant enough to really want to
Speaker 1: take credit for what he did and maybe talk about
Speaker 1: it because he knows that people will write the details,
Speaker 1: and they will, and it'd be interesting for you and
Speaker 1: I to talk again down about this once this story
Speaker 1: unfolds some more, because it will and there will be
Speaker 1: more details, I'm sure.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I'd like I invited Larry Crompton to come
Speaker 5: on and talk about his book and about this case,
Speaker 5: but I'm sure he's busy or has better things to do,
Speaker 5: but it would be nice to have you both on
Speaker 5: and talk about this case at another point, because again,
Speaker 5: go ahead.
Speaker 1: I was just going to say I'm going to be
Speaker 1: seeing him very soon. I'd planned a trip to go
Speaker 1: visit him actually, and I'm still going to go, so
Speaker 1: I'll be seeing him in person here shortly. But he
Speaker 1: I know, he's extremely busy. He's been interviewed like crazy,
Speaker 1: and he's been in the Orgonian type papers and places
Speaker 1: like that. So anyway, so yeah, you'll get up, you'll
Speaker 1: catch up with him sooner or later.
Speaker 5: Yeah, certainly, certainly, what's next for you? I alluded that again,
Speaker 5: I said that you were this is still an ongoing investigation.
Speaker 5: Will there be another book? What's your next move regarding
Speaker 5: this case?
Speaker 1: Well, you know what was ironic is that I had
Speaker 1: just I've been talking to another author. His name's Kevin Sullivan,
Speaker 1: and he writes books about Ted Bundy, and I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm really looking for a case that I
Speaker 1: can write about that's been solved. And this was probably
Speaker 1: two or three weeks ago I said that. And now
Speaker 1: this has been solved basically, and so we'll see how
Speaker 1: it plays out. But certainly there's a few chapters to add.
Speaker 1: There's there's no doubt about that. And people have been
Speaker 1: asking me, you're going to write about it. You're going
Speaker 1: to write about it? Probably I can't fathom not finishing
Speaker 1: the story.
Speaker 5: But we shall see, absolutely, and I'm sure there's so
Speaker 5: much more to learn. I mean, even without a confession
Speaker 5: that they're the same army of people that were interested
Speaker 5: in all of the facts surrounding this case. And now
Speaker 5: with everybody that's Johnny cum lately come on board, it's
Speaker 5: amazing to hear true crime fans that you know, weren't
Speaker 5: up to speed on this case. Now try to digest
Speaker 5: all the material that's coming out because it's such a
Speaker 5: fascinating case. If people think the Zodiac and the Zodiac
Speaker 5: movie in the Zodiac books were incredible, I think that
Speaker 5: the publishing business in general, not just true crime, I
Speaker 5: mean television, documentaries, you name it. This is going to
Speaker 5: be the story that is going to be the biggest
Speaker 5: story of anybody's heard. It has all those elements. It
Speaker 5: was amazing that it didn't have the attention that you
Speaker 5: and I and a lot of people thought it deserved.
Speaker 5: But certainly it's going to achieve that now.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I would think so. I think everybody's
Speaker 1: been hearing about it and talking about it. It's it's
Speaker 1: just I can't and you're right, I couldn't fathom that
Speaker 1: that it wasn't solved and that it was just sort
Speaker 1: of sitting there by the wayside for a long long time.
Speaker 1: It seemed. It seems that way when you're part of
Speaker 1: a family of people who are waiting for it to
Speaker 1: be solved, and you want it to be solved yesterday,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, it was finally getting some attention I
Speaker 1: found it interesting that all the shows had finally come
Speaker 1: out and been said and done, all the books were
Speaker 1: out there, and then it gets solved. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's been interesting to watch and to watch it up close.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad that I did contact the people I
Speaker 1: contacted and did start talking about this, because it was
Speaker 1: the fear in the back dark resources of my mind
Speaker 1: that I needed to get rid of, and the way
Speaker 1: to do that was to talk about this because it
Speaker 1: was too terrifying. I still am afraid sometimes, but it's
Speaker 1: after this happened. So you know, I went outside in
Speaker 1: my yard and stood with my bare feet on the
Speaker 1: grass and I just tried to take it all in.
Speaker 1: So he's not there, He's not going to be outside
Speaker 1: my window. He's not there. And I, for the first
Speaker 1: time actually did my dishes without worrying about turning the
Speaker 1: light off quickly at night. So anyway, I'm glad that
Speaker 1: it's done.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And it's glad. It's nice to be able
Speaker 5: to use your own name. And again, this fear that
Speaker 5: you had should I come out again is based on
Speaker 5: something that happened a long, long, long time ago, and
Speaker 5: we talked about that earlier. Again, I read your book,
Speaker 5: reread your book, and we talk about the man in
Speaker 5: the puffy jacket at the meeting where the Italian man
Speaker 5: rants and raves about how it's done in his own country.
Speaker 5: And then so I just hand imagine. And that's why
Speaker 5: we will have to do another follow up show just
Speaker 5: to all the things that you examined, all of the
Speaker 5: little leads I'd like to hear as you find out
Speaker 5: more information and you further investigate just some more interesting
Speaker 5: and fascinating subjects surrounding this case.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I want to thank you very very much An
Speaker 5: actually and Penn but Laurie for coming on and talking
Speaker 5: about the East Area rapist, original night Stalker, Golden State Killer,
Speaker 5: and also we just wanted to talk about your book
Speaker 5: Murder on His Mind serial killer member family member speaks
Speaker 5: out and Pen thank you very much for this interview
Speaker 5: and hope to speak to you again soon.
Speaker 1: Yes, and thank you Dan very much. I appreciated your time.
Speaker 5: Is there a website for people might want to reach
Speaker 5: out to you? Tell us a little bit about just
Speaker 5: contact information or where they might look at your work?
Speaker 1: Well, I have I have a Twitter account and Pen
Speaker 1: thirteen I have you can contact me at Andpen thirteen
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. I have a WordPress account. It's
Speaker 1: and Pen dot WordPress. I believe it is sort of
Speaker 1: like a phone number, you don't call it yourself. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different things I've blogged about on
Speaker 1: there regarding this case, and it's all under and Pen
Speaker 1: and you can always google that too. I've had a
Speaker 1: lot of interest all over the world in the last
Speaker 1: well it's been ongoing, but in particular, you know, all
Speaker 1: kinds of different countries, Malaysia, China, Australia, you name it. It's
Speaker 1: been interesting to see how many people are hearing about
Speaker 1: this case.
Speaker 5: So yes, absolutely, congratulations to you and I'm glad to
Speaker 5: see that this case was solved. It really was the
Speaker 5: purpose of your book and the purpose of your mission here.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. Pen. Otherwise, Laurie, have a great evening, good.
Speaker 1: Night, Thank you you two. Bye bye bye