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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about him. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good.
Speaker 1: Evening from his cell on Death Row in Florida. Confess
Speaker 1: serial killer Danny Rowling started writing and illustrating this novel
Speaker 1: about the daggerman Secarius in nineteen ninety nine, seven years
Speaker 1: before his two thousand and six execution for the five
Speaker 1: murders he committed. In nineteen ninety drawing on years of research,
Speaker 1: Rolling follows zoologist Sir Windsor Ashmole to the African island
Speaker 1: of Moritus to assist doctor Borgum Konoff in saving endangered species,
Speaker 1: but the doctor's dabbling in sinister forces, torturing the island's
Speaker 1: girls in a mad quest for immortality as an alien relic,
Speaker 1: gives him the superhuman powers of a cecarius. Caught in
Speaker 1: the act, Konoff escapes to Boston, where he goes on
Speaker 1: a murder rampage. Ashmole helps police track him, but the
Speaker 1: power of the Relic is still protecting the elusive Secarius.
Speaker 1: As the powers that be close in on the crazed killer,
Speaker 1: a deal with the forces of darkness is broker by
Speaker 1: a witch whose name is cath a nod to the
Speaker 1: woman who served as Rollings muse in real life at
Speaker 1: the time he dreamed up the tale. The novel was
Speaker 1: published in two thousand and two by Plot Digger Publications,
Speaker 1: a corporation owned by Canadian film maker Ryan Nicholson, who
Speaker 1: died in twenty nineteen without renewing the copyright, so the
Speaker 1: book was orphaned until twenty twenty two when Sondra London
Speaker 1: gave new life to this tale that Rowling had originally
Speaker 1: asked her to publish. The book that were featured in
Speaker 1: this sevening is Sicarius. Sondra London presents Death Row Fiction
Speaker 1: by a Serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and
Speaker 1: author and true crime author Sondra London. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for this interview. Sondra London.
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you, Dan, You're my favorite podcaster.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Sondra London, and congratulations on this
Speaker 1: very very interesting book. Let's talk about right from the
Speaker 1: very beginning, you in the introduction call this warnings about
Speaker 1: free speech and the new normal, calls for warnings on
Speaker 1: anything that might offend anyone. You write about Securius was
Speaker 1: written by a serial killer on death row tell us
Speaker 1: why free speech is so important as actually in regards
Speaker 1: to this book.
Speaker 4: Okay, well, I'm a free speech radical. I don't believe
Speaker 4: in any form of compelled speech or limited speech at all.
Speaker 4: So that's my personal bias. I've been punished in court,
Speaker 4: had my life ruined over this issue. So I'm entitled
Speaker 4: to speak, and I speak about this book and introductory
Speaker 4: terms specifically because the world has changed so much since
Speaker 4: Danny Rowling wrote it, and there are forces at work
Speaker 4: in our culture that are demanding compelled speech and demanding
Speaker 4: that things not be said, the words not be used,
Speaker 4: and I'm not going to honor any of that. I've
Speaker 4: published this myself because anytime a establishment publisher gets a
Speaker 4: hold of materials such as I've produced over the years,
Speaker 4: they want to they really want to censor it, let's
Speaker 4: put it that way, and it's not helpful. I think
Speaker 4: that censoring the thoughts and expressions specifically involving violence. I
Speaker 4: don't think that it accomplishes what they imagine it should,
Speaker 4: it doesn't stop violence. Instead, it drives the violent impulse
Speaker 4: deeper into the darkness, and in the dark side of
Speaker 4: the personality is where all the powerful drives are that
Speaker 4: we lose control off. So the more that we are
Speaker 4: able to deal with things consciously and openly, at least
Speaker 4: we won't have these shadow impulses coming along from we
Speaker 4: don't even know where and causing so much trouble. So
Speaker 4: I think the impulse to censor all expression until it
Speaker 4: is inoffensive is very wrong. And I think it's very
Speaker 4: very wrong when it comes to violence because at this point,
Speaker 4: violence is easy to commit at a distance and without
Speaker 4: any visceral involvement. And I believe that there's a lot
Speaker 4: of people who are seduced into committing violence because they
Speaker 4: don't realize what it means and what it does and
Speaker 4: what it does to themselves. And so I think if
Speaker 4: we really listen to people like Nanny Rowling who've been
Speaker 4: there and done that, there are things that they have
Speaker 4: learned that we need to learn. We can't learn them.
Speaker 4: And we're not going to cross that fatal line and
Speaker 4: we're not going to break the law and become killers.
Speaker 4: But we would like to know what they learned from
Speaker 4: the other side, and the way you do that is
Speaker 4: by communication.
Speaker 1: You write about transgressive writing that criminal behavior is transgressive
Speaker 1: for involves violating the boundaries of the social contract. Tell
Speaker 1: us about transgressive fiction.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm just giving an official notice. That is very
Speaker 4: nature of this document. We are dealing with the behavior
Speaker 4: that crosses boundaries, and so please do not bring in
Speaker 4: an inappropriate censorship mindset to this book. If you don't
Speaker 4: like that, then just close that book sooner the better.
Speaker 1: Tell us about your first book, death Row fiction.
Speaker 4: My first book was Knocking on Joe Voices from Death Row,
Speaker 4: and I had set out in this Zene revolution. Remember
Speaker 4: in the eighties, I coached venes which were like a
Speaker 4: self published small magazines that you could order directly from
Speaker 4: the publisher. That was viens right, And so I was
Speaker 4: doing that and I had imprint called Media Queen. And
Speaker 4: so this is gentleman. Paul Woods from UK writes to
Speaker 4: me and says, I want to become a publisher and
Speaker 4: I want to publish your stuff you published on your
Speaker 4: Media Queen, and I want to call it Knocking on
Speaker 4: Joe Voices from Death row because there's a Nick Cave
Speaker 4: song about it, and I'm like whatever. So that was
Speaker 4: the book. That was how it got published. Got published
Speaker 4: in England to very small circulation, but it made a
Speaker 4: big impact because in England no one's allowed to talk
Speaker 4: to prisoners. Interesting, this book was full of all this
Speaker 4: inside baseball, you know, inside American prisons. So in England
Speaker 4: it was quite impactful.
Speaker 1: You read about your next book, killer fiction with the
Speaker 1: serial killer's actual fantasies and false confessions. Tell us about that.
Speaker 4: Gerard John Schaefer is where I started because I knew
Speaker 4: him when I was a teenager and he was a
Speaker 4: nice boy. I dated for a year, and it was
Speaker 4: nine years later that he hit the headlines as a
Speaker 4: serial killer. It was a roague cop of practice, seeing
Speaker 4: his homicidal line passes behind the badge, and we see
Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy three that he went to prison for life.
Speaker 4: And then the only thing that happened of interest to
Speaker 4: our story here is that we came up to nineteen
Speaker 4: eighty eight. We'll just have to skip a lot, folks,
Speaker 4: because we only have a little time. So up in
Speaker 4: eighty eight, I was making a good living as a
Speaker 4: technical writer, consultant, but the economy was bad. So I
Speaker 4: was looking around and they executed Bundy, and all the
Speaker 4: news was about serial killers, and so I said, I
Speaker 4: knew a serial killer better than Anne Rule did, so
Speaker 4: let me just see if I can write a book
Speaker 4: about that. I thought it would just be, you know,
Speaker 4: a project, one of many projects, and I would go
Speaker 4: on other things. But it was not to be. I
Speaker 4: started out with Schaeffer, and it's just that one thing
Speaker 4: led to another.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the beginnings of the five years you
Speaker 1: spent with Danny Rowling. Tell us about the origins of
Speaker 1: your correspondence.
Speaker 4: Listen, yea, how quick I can make this transition. So
Speaker 4: I'm working with Shaeffer. Along comes Bobby Lewis, who says
Speaker 4: I have better stories than Shaeffer. Published my stories, and
Speaker 4: he said, I escaped from death row and when they
Speaker 4: brought me back, they put me alone on death row
Speaker 4: with Ted Bundy. So I have these stories. So I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker 4: And so I worked on stories of Bobby's for about
Speaker 4: a year or so, and then when they brought Danny
Speaker 4: Rolling in after he'd been charged with five murders that
Speaker 4: he had committed nineteen ninety they put him with Bobby Lewis,
Speaker 4: and Bobby Lewis showed Danny Rowling the screenplay I had
Speaker 4: written about Bobby Lewis's escape from Depth row It was
Speaker 4: called Redbone, and it's a great story, but I don't
Speaker 4: say so myself. But Danny Rowling saw that script, Redbone,
Speaker 4: and he said, whoever wrote this, I want them to
Speaker 4: help me write my story. And he wrote to me
Speaker 4: and asked me to help him work on his story
Speaker 4: with him.
Speaker 1: Now, ideally you would have wanted to visit with him personally.
Speaker 1: That didn't happen. Tell us why and how was this
Speaker 1: book written and how did you collaborate between you?
Speaker 4: Naturally, everyone knew that we wanted this pation. So therefore
Speaker 4: that was used to manipulate Danny Rowling, the fact that
Speaker 4: that's what he wanted. And so it's a long story,
Speaker 4: quite a long story, and really beyond the scope of
Speaker 4: a few minutes together here. But the desire to visit
Speaker 4: was manipulated by the State's Attorney's Office Number one, number two.
Speaker 4: Danny Rowling had death wish and you want he was
Speaker 4: guilty and he wanted to be executed and to pay
Speaker 4: for his crimes and Danny Rowling insisted that I cooperate
Speaker 4: with him and the State's Attorney's office to ensure that
Speaker 4: he'd be executed. Now this is the story you will
Speaker 4: hear about my role with Danny Rowling. You won't hear
Speaker 4: it because of certain reasons that were timely at the time.
Speaker 4: But now I can talk a little bit more about
Speaker 4: really happened there. Our desire to visit was used to
Speaker 4: coerce a confession from Danny Rowling that led to his execution.
Speaker 4: Both Danny and I were very frustrated and found it
Speaker 4: very difficult to work together. But look unintended consequences, y'all.
Speaker 4: That's what made the story I have so rock solid,
Speaker 4: because every single thing isn't writing and it's in his words.
Speaker 4: You don't have to rely on me going into a visit,
Speaker 4: not allowed a pencil, not allowed of paper, much less
Speaker 4: a tape recorder, talk to him for eight hours, and
Speaker 4: come out and try to write about it. Okay, you
Speaker 4: don't have that with this case. Absolutely you have is
Speaker 4: it had to be in his own words, and that
Speaker 4: makes it all the more authentic. The forces that were
Speaker 4: posing Danny Rowling and myself didn't want any good at
Speaker 4: all to come out of our interaction, but their very
Speaker 4: efforts to stop it made it better.
Speaker 1: Now, tell us about your writing coach, you as a
Speaker 1: writing coach, and how you introduced him to the world
Speaker 1: of self expression. He had told you about his songs.
Speaker 1: He was very proud of the songs he had written.
Speaker 1: Tell us about this introduction into the world of self expression.
Speaker 1: Why did you do this, what did you believe you
Speaker 1: might gain from this? Tell us about this project?
Speaker 4: Okay, I had come off or let's said, started with
Speaker 4: John Shafer. John Jafer had a degree in creative writing
Speaker 4: along with criminal justice. He wasn't as smart as me,
Speaker 4: but compared to your average prisoner, he was the regular Einstein,
Speaker 4: and he was very creative and prolific in expressing himself
Speaker 4: in writing. Then you're Bobby Lewis, a high school drop
Speaker 4: out but mister personality and had a winning way with words,
Speaker 4: very fluent and easy. And then your autist Toole, who
Speaker 4: was illiterate and required a whole different approach. And so
Speaker 4: then came Danny Rowling. And Danny Rowling's problem was that
Speaker 4: he was psychologically in very poor condition. And he says himself,
Speaker 4: he's had dozens of shrinks plowing through his mind, and
Speaker 4: they all come to different conclusions. But you can just
Speaker 4: say that he was very mentally ill, and he was
Speaker 4: a trauma veteran. He had been abused since before he
Speaker 4: was born. It's on the record witnessed and sworn that
Speaker 4: his father kicked that pregnant abdomen, that his father strangled
Speaker 4: that pregnant woman and threw her downstairs. So the abuse
Speaker 4: on Danny started before he was even a real baby.
Speaker 4: So he had in some no self esteem and he
Speaker 4: didn't have enough self esteem to express himself. And his
Speaker 4: very first record though, he was so excited about a
Speaker 4: tape he had made with songs on it that that
Speaker 4: was in his very first introductory letter to me. I
Speaker 4: have this tape. I can't wait for you to hear it.
Speaker 4: And so that was a that went on and on
Speaker 4: and on, but just to say that's how important it
Speaker 4: was to Danny Okay, that he had reached out in
Speaker 4: this way to the world to express himself and that
Speaker 4: he wanted to share that with me immediately. So as
Speaker 4: we went along, we started working and asking him prompts
Speaker 4: and working back and forth and showing him better ways
Speaker 4: to get across the things that he was trying to
Speaker 4: do interactively. And there was a little sentence that I
Speaker 4: thought was kind of cute that I've put excerpted for
Speaker 4: the Making of a Serial Killer, Reese, and look where
Speaker 4: it comes to writing, and you're like a Ferrari and
Speaker 4: I'm more like a go cart that you know, it
Speaker 4: was funny, but that was true. But he handled it
Speaker 4: in the best way possible, and you know, to laugh
Speaker 4: at himself and to continue to improve it was It's
Speaker 4: like bringing water for the first time to a plant
Speaker 4: that had been wrongfully thrown into the desert. And the
Speaker 4: way that he grew with his skills was just it
Speaker 4: was gratifying to me, okay, working with him, but it
Speaker 4: was also quite astonishing. I mean, you just really wouldn't
Speaker 4: believe the human creature would be capable. When I first
Speaker 4: started with him, he could barely write a letter, and
Speaker 4: by the time we got to the point four, about
Speaker 4: four and a half years later, he wrote his confessions,
Speaker 4: The Murder Confessions. He wrote twenty twenty three page documents
Speaker 4: that didn't require a single change in a coma of
Speaker 4: phrase nothing. They were published exactly as he was able
Speaker 4: to come to terms with being able to do it
Speaker 4: now with his art work again. It was heartbreaking to
Speaker 4: see how all this talent was married. And he'd be
Speaker 4: writing a letter along and then he would burst into
Speaker 4: pictures like you know on a play where they burst
Speaker 4: into song, right, would burst into graphics. And to start,
Speaker 4: you know, he's writing words and then he's it's a
Speaker 4: picture and everything, and I'm like, and then he draws
Speaker 4: really good ones, and then I'm like, Danny, you're an artist.
Speaker 4: Now what I want you to do? And you want
Speaker 4: to draw a picture, Take a page all by itself,
Speaker 4: draw the picture, sign it and date it, okay, And
Speaker 4: like a dream student, he'd just suck that right up,
Speaker 4: and anyone who asks anything from Danny Rowling knows that
Speaker 4: it's dated and signed. He'd put his initials on the
Speaker 4: bottom of every one of the five thousand pages of
Speaker 4: letters that he sent me once I gave him that instruction,
Speaker 4: and then he began because he could see himself reflect
Speaker 4: fit in my eyes, and he could see the value there,
Speaker 4: and that gave him the confidence to go ahead and
Speaker 4: try things. And that he wouldn't dare. He wouldn't dare
Speaker 4: do anything. He was like a huddled up, little dry
Speaker 4: shell of a person. It's a drawing he did of
Speaker 4: a tree. Half of it is dead, the other half
Speaker 4: is haunted, and the only animation is a tiny, little,
Speaker 4: tiny little face about as big as a baseball at
Speaker 4: the heart of the tree. And that's how his true
Speaker 4: spirit had to hide from the constant trauma that had
Speaker 4: been visited upon him. So that was a condition he
Speaker 4: was in, and so the work that we did was
Speaker 4: able to just rehabilitate his condition. In general, and of course,
Speaker 4: being incarcerated I think is healthy because you have a
Speaker 4: regular schedule, you have regular food, you have a place
Speaker 4: to sleep, and everything is predictable, well everything, of course,
Speaker 4: but you know what I mean. And so a person
Speaker 4: doesn't have to make a lot of decisions and maybe
Speaker 4: foolish decisions. And so I think I've seen a number
Speaker 4: of cases whereas after the person is taken into custody,
Speaker 4: after about sixty days there they are stable enoughter where
Speaker 4: they can a real personality. He's able to be exhibited.
Speaker 1: Right, tell us what the secarious title, where it comes from,
Speaker 1: Where it's derived from, Where likely Danny Rowling had read
Speaker 1: about it or heard about it.
Speaker 4: Okay, we're talking about the Middle East there, and that
Speaker 4: area would cover many countries at this point, but broadly
Speaker 4: in the Middle East. There was a word sicca as
Speaker 4: i CII would spell it in English, but it crossed
Speaker 4: both your Hebrew and your sandsprit and various language Rootstika
Speaker 4: means a knife, okay, means something you stick with, hold
Speaker 4: it in your hand and stick somebody with it time
Speaker 4: and time again. That was called a cicca. So were
Speaker 4: you to go on Google and search the word sicca,
Speaker 4: the pictures that would come up would look different. That
Speaker 4: merely speaks to how broad this phenomenon was. That you
Speaker 4: looked different in different times in places, but they are sicca.
Speaker 4: So here's how this came down. This was when the
Speaker 4: Romans conquered the Jews and they occupied Jerusalem. Okay, many
Speaker 4: of the Jews fought this occupation, and they were called Vella.
Speaker 4: They were very vellous about fighting to keep Jerusalem Jewish.
Speaker 4: The sekari I were the first to cloak and dagger assassins.
Speaker 4: They wore a cloak and they carried asika, and they
Speaker 4: a sicarius would go into the marketplace, a crowded venue,
Speaker 4: maybe in the temple, where there are many people bustling
Speaker 4: up against one another and pull dagger out and stab
Speaker 4: the victim, and then further ends to pretend to be
Speaker 4: scared and run away. Everybody runs away and it's all
Speaker 4: confusing and they never get caught. The thing that made
Speaker 4: them different from Zella's was the Sekarii. There at Masada,
Speaker 4: we're killing collaborators. Okay, they were killing the Jews who
Speaker 4: were going along with the occupation. So that's what differentiated
Speaker 4: them from the Zoahs. Today we hear the word sicario
Speaker 4: used in pop culture because it's used in Latin America
Speaker 4: and it means the same thing, an assassin stabber. Now,
Speaker 4: where did Danny Rowling get the idea of secari eye
Speaker 4: in the first place, kind of an exotic word. Well,
Speaker 4: we will point out that Paul the Apostle mention the
Speaker 4: Secarii and the Book of Acts, so it's quite possible
Speaker 4: that that's where he first heard the word.
Speaker 1: Now you talk about Secarius when you were his writing
Speaker 1: coach and his editor and encouraging his artwork and the
Speaker 1: inclusion of that in this story. Did he tell you
Speaker 1: why he chose the title Secarius?
Speaker 4: No, he never did. He just wrote it to me.
Speaker 4: This is something starting to write now called Secarius, and
Speaker 4: I didn't know what it meant. I had to look
Speaker 4: it up.
Speaker 1: So tell us more about this process of encouragement and
Speaker 1: this writing coach and the development of this story.
Speaker 4: Okay, so you remember we were working together, collaborating by
Speaker 4: correspondence in order to do this book. I was sued
Speaker 4: before the book was written, so that mistake could threaten
Speaker 4: me to stop, stop, don't do this. And as I
Speaker 4: pointed out to them, I'm not doing this for the money.
Speaker 4: I'm doing this because you're telling me not to and
Speaker 4: I'm not going to allow you to do that. That
Speaker 4: this is my project. And they said that they were
Speaker 4: going to seize my profits before it was even written,
Speaker 4: and that's you know, that's not lawful. You might be
Speaker 4: aware of that, but that was what was done. So
Speaker 4: we proceed working in that manner, disregarding all the difficulties
Speaker 4: that were being put upon us in that way. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: be any World and continued to petition for visitation, and
Speaker 4: we continued to go through an elaborate rigmarole every time,
Speaker 4: with new made up rules and new made up reasons
Speaker 4: and all that. At one point they said that okay,
Speaker 4: we were friends, but our friendship was not leading to marriage.
Speaker 4: So that's why they would refuse us visitation. So we
Speaker 4: consulted among ourselves and said, okay, it needs to make marriage,
Speaker 4: and then they had another new rule, right, so it
Speaker 4: never ended. During the time I was working with him,
Speaker 4: he became very wise about what I meant about an
Speaker 4: exclusive story. He saw all the suffering I was going
Speaker 4: through because I was working with him, and he became
Speaker 4: more and more compassionate of my position and very very
Speaker 4: protective of his own story in order to keep our
Speaker 4: project going, and because it had to be exclusive, and
Speaker 4: that put him in another kind of isolation because he
Speaker 4: was by me, he was correspond with anyone. And once
Speaker 4: we got the confessions written, once we got Making a
Speaker 4: Serial Killer published, then there came a day where the
Speaker 4: warden came to Danny Rowling's cell, which is very very rare,
Speaker 4: but he did and told him he might as well
Speaker 4: give it up because he was never going to see me.
Speaker 4: And at that point Danny Rowling conceded the battle and
Speaker 4: said he was going to have to just give this up,
Speaker 4: this exclusive arrangement. So at that point we both said, okay,
Speaker 4: you can write anyone, you can do anything you want.
Speaker 4: You're free no obligation to me. He still had an
Speaker 4: obligation to me regarding the murder confessions up in Louisiana,
Speaker 4: which he respected until the moment of his execution. He
Speaker 4: gave me those confessions and he would not give them
Speaker 4: to anyone else, although he did, for the record admit
Speaker 4: his guilt, but he did not give the full twenty
Speaker 4: three page account of what happened there and went on
Speaker 4: in his mind. I still have that he gave it
Speaker 4: to me, okay, So he had a complete respect for
Speaker 4: our relationship, but he was corresponding with other people. So
Speaker 4: then during that period was when he wrote to me
Speaker 4: about Secarious. It said in his letter, when I get done,
Speaker 4: i'll send it to you. But because of the pressures
Speaker 4: going on behind bars, and we have no idea what
Speaker 4: that's like, you know, living at the pleasure of status,
Speaker 4: in power and things you can't say, there are things
Speaker 4: you can't say. So one thing and another happened, and
Speaker 4: the manuscript wound up in the hands of an individual
Speaker 4: who's well known to be of low character. His same
Speaker 4: as Tim Carning And I'm not going to say anything libelous.
Speaker 4: It's all through story. He had that manuscript to Secarius
Speaker 4: on his website for sale for five thousand dollars or years.
Speaker 4: And I don't know what happened to that manuscript. And
Speaker 4: Ben Carnig is the same individual who put out a
Speaker 4: story that Danny Rowling was gay and that he had
Speaker 4: love letters from Danny Rowling to these others inmate was
Speaker 4: it's not true. And I had the classification officer in
Speaker 4: charge of the whole fair confirmed to me that this
Speaker 4: alleged gay lover of his had never even been on
Speaker 4: the same wing as Danny Rowling. But Ken Carnig was
Speaker 4: running up and down the world telling everyone Danny Rowling
Speaker 4: was gay. And so at that time when that was
Speaker 4: going on, I'm going to read you what Danny Rowling
Speaker 4: had to say about King Carnig. King Carnig said, Danny
Speaker 4: on right the day for Christmas in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 4: and give himself a hydrochloric acid in amu. For all
Speaker 4: I care that lion piece of gutter slime. I wouldn't
Speaker 4: dirty a blade on him. The only reason that Punk
Speaker 4: runs his mouth is because he can feel secure that
Speaker 4: I'm paged on Florida's death row How would low life
Speaker 4: if I could get my hands on him, I'd beat
Speaker 4: him to death. Okay, So that's how Danny Rolling felt
Speaker 4: about the person who held this book prevented it from
Speaker 4: reaching our listeners and our readers. That was Ken Coronick.
Speaker 4: So somehow or another, the book, the book's contents, wound
Speaker 4: up with a man who did special effects makeup out
Speaker 4: of Canada. He published it and then very very very
Speaker 4: small circulation and then died. And then so as I
Speaker 4: was moving around the world, I kept asking these collectors
Speaker 4: and fans, anyone know whatever happened to that book Secarious,
Speaker 4: And all through the years everyone said they didn't know,
Speaker 4: but they were looking for it too. So it just
Speaker 4: became up to a gentleman by the name Wade Gardner
Speaker 4: who was kind enough to send me his very very
Speaker 4: very rare book. So that enabled me to bring this
Speaker 4: to print at last.
Speaker 1: You say there was considerable work that you had to do,
Speaker 1: and you talk about that incredible work and using software
Speaker 1: and restoring the art and the original text and daunting,
Speaker 1: daunting project that you had.
Speaker 4: It was this book crudely printed on paper that had yellowed,
Speaker 4: and the print had you know, faded to gray, so
Speaker 4: it was sort of between the orange page and the
Speaker 4: gray print and the art org was degraded. But fortunately
Speaker 4: Wade had his hands on the original artwork and he
Speaker 4: provided me with high resolution scans to use for the book.
Speaker 4: Instead of scanning the way it was printed in that tiny,
Speaker 4: little paperback book, I was able to get good, strong images.
Speaker 4: And then I also included in this book that I
Speaker 4: put out fifty or more other images from my collection
Speaker 4: of Danny Rowling's art org. They were not in the original.
Speaker 1: You right that this is offered. This book is offered
Speaker 1: for you to use as as you have, for others
Speaker 1: to use as you have, as a glass to peer
Speaker 1: into the mind of the homicidal maniac. Brought it forth
Speaker 1: by hand, word from word from a dungeon at the
Speaker 1: dead end of murder Road. And you say, although the
Speaker 1: genre is fiction, it's provenance is all too real.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, I'd like to analyze that, basing my analysis
Speaker 4: on a commonplace observation by Sigmund Freud he relied on
Speaker 4: when he did his psychoanalysis of dreams. According to Freud,
Speaker 4: it was productive for him and his patients to go
Speaker 4: over their dreams and think about every person that was
Speaker 4: in the dreams some part of their own self. So
Speaker 4: I wanted to take that approach when looking at the
Speaker 4: characters that were brought work in this fiction by Danny Rowling,
Speaker 4: and also look at even current day psychological practice treating
Speaker 4: children with a sandbox therapy where you put the child
Speaker 4: at a sandbox with an infinite array of little figures
Speaker 4: and toys, and the therapist just kind of watches as
Speaker 4: the child makes up dramas with the figures and acts
Speaker 4: them out. Because there's more to telling the truth than
Speaker 4: just words. And I don't believe that you can do
Speaker 4: anything without revealing who you are every gesture. That's why
Speaker 4: we have grapho analysis to look at your handwriting and
Speaker 4: go from that to who you are. And you know
Speaker 4: it can be a nonsense, but you know there are
Speaker 4: also corporations to employ graphal analysis for applicants, so it's
Speaker 4: not at all invalid to take this approach. Literature, we
Speaker 4: have a thing called a fallacy, which means it's like
Speaker 4: a pitfall you could fall into, called the intentional fallacy,
Speaker 4: where the earnest to a student of literature is not
Speaker 4: to try to plumb the intentions of the author, but
Speaker 4: to allow the work to stand on its own two
Speaker 4: legs and leave the author out of it, because I
Speaker 4: think they come up with that fallacy because I think
Speaker 4: it's only natural to look at a work of art
Speaker 4: and to wonder what in the world was the artist
Speaker 4: thinking when they did that. But where caution is students
Speaker 4: of literature not to practice that, because it's a fallacy.
Speaker 4: So let me explain to your audience. And I'm aware
Speaker 4: of that, and now we're going to do it anyway
Speaker 4: if you don't mind. Absolutely, I think it's useful, and
Speaker 4: the other reasons is very useful. It is because they
Speaker 4: Rowling literally had multiple personalities, and you can quibble over
Speaker 4: that on your own time. You didn't have to deal
Speaker 4: with him day after day, year after year. And a
Speaker 4: person who really has multiple personalities, it's just a part
Speaker 4: of them, and Danny Rowling did so there. So when
Speaker 4: we come to the characters that he lays out here,
Speaker 4: I can explain to you how each character would exemplify
Speaker 4: an aspect of Danny Rowling in a way that helps
Speaker 4: us understand him and the terrible loss of control that
Speaker 4: ruins so many lives that he experienced. Just to start
Speaker 4: with this analysis, I want to go into the very
Speaker 4: idea of knife crime. The dagger man, why did he
Speaker 4: choose to title it and to focus it on the
Speaker 4: use of that particular weapon, the knife. Okay, so if
Speaker 4: it was just about murder, just about anything would do,
Speaker 4: so long as the target was rendered dead, right, But no,
Speaker 4: there's something about a knife for Danny Rowling. And I
Speaker 4: find myself once again quoting from what he wrote for
Speaker 4: me in the Making of a Serial Killer, and so pointing,
Speaker 4: and I just really want to share it with you,
Speaker 4: Danny says. I'll say this much. Once a knife's blade
Speaker 4: has tasted human flesh, it becomes transformed from mere metal
Speaker 4: and leather to an entity which thirsts for more and
Speaker 4: more blood. In fact, it even smells different, sweeter, the
Speaker 4: sickening sweet smell of power to take life word out
Speaker 4: on its tempered edge.
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Speaker 1: dot com slash true murder. You just quoted from Danny
Speaker 1: Rowling and the power and the importance of the knife
Speaker 1: in this secarious story and in his crimes, and we
Speaker 1: were talking about his disassociative identity personality disorder, and these
Speaker 1: fragmented character of Danny Rowling at the time that you
Speaker 1: had met him, and all of the characters that you
Speaker 1: said you experienced in this five years of collaboration with
Speaker 1: Danny Rolling, tell us about the basic premise of this
Speaker 1: plot and some of the characters that he introduces.
Speaker 4: Okay, well, the camera if you will, and the first
Speaker 4: person speaking is a character that he calls Sir Windsor
Speaker 4: Ashmole the third and you know, he is a little
Speaker 4: bit like Dickens in that the names he chooses allude
Speaker 4: to certain qualities. This one alludes to a higher class.
Speaker 4: First all, he's a thirst so that's something. But Windsor
Speaker 4: he supposed a w I in se er, I know
Speaker 4: that he knows it's Windsors. The Royal Windsors is wy
Speaker 4: and d. But he's supposed at Windsor, so that brings
Speaker 4: it in the association to Winsing Mincing. Okay. So he
Speaker 4: is a proper, a proper person with a secure position,
Speaker 4: a good education, Okay, very privileged, but essentially he's moral
Speaker 4: person who's trying to do the right thing. Now, if
Speaker 4: we compare that to Danny Rowling. Of course he's not privileged,
Speaker 4: but he was capable of the kind of scholarly introspection
Speaker 4: that is required to write a book, because after all,
Speaker 4: he did. And so in that sense he even become
Speaker 4: stable enough within himself that he could be familiar with
Speaker 4: that kind of personality within himself, someone who could be
Speaker 4: a reliable narrator and carry the plot forward. Okay, so
Speaker 4: that's I'm not saying that's the Danny Rowling who cut
Speaker 4: of girls had off. Do you understand right, Okay, that
Speaker 4: in this disorder, those different personalities do not blend, do
Speaker 4: not mix, do not know each other, and frankly don't
Speaker 4: like each other. So try to remember that so that
Speaker 4: this character is are really our men carry is the
Speaker 4: pivotal point telling the story. But it's a good thing
Speaker 4: he's a little dull because that puts more contrast on
Speaker 4: the main character, the real interest. And he starts out
Speaker 4: as introduced as a doctor borgum Kana kind of name
Speaker 4: is that no one's ever been named that? I what
Speaker 4: does that remind me of? Boris Carlos? Yes, absolutely, And
Speaker 4: so I'm thinking Danny's reaching around for a sound that's
Speaker 4: gonna sound connor like a big most guy. Uh and
Speaker 4: he comes up with this doctor borgam Kanna. Okay, so
Speaker 4: this is a really the criminal side of Danny rolling.
Speaker 4: I don't mean the murderer, but the robber will gun swinger,
Speaker 4: running around taking all kinds of crazy risks and on
Speaker 4: his motorcycle and all that kind of stuff. And that
Speaker 4: would be the other side of Danny's personality, that would
Speaker 4: be borgham Kana. But there's more to boredom Kanna because
Speaker 4: he is a multiple personalities scene. And then in the
Speaker 4: book he is going mad. When we start the book,
Speaker 4: he's right on the edge of losing it. Okay, He's
Speaker 4: been torturing girls and he's getting caught and he isn't
Speaker 4: handling it well and he's misbehaving. And then he jumps
Speaker 4: on a plane and escapes from Mauritius, the island Kingdom,
Speaker 4: and goes to America. By the time he gets to America,
Speaker 4: he's no longer bored fun Off. He's doctor Victor Grigory,
Speaker 4: and he also is a phony and he pretends to
Speaker 4: be respectable, a veterinarian. Okay, he uses that social credit
Speaker 4: to get by he come to America. Now, compare that
Speaker 4: to what Nanny Rowling did by robbing grocery stores and banks,
Speaker 4: filling Hiss with a lot of cash. He was playing
Speaker 4: the free wheeling tourist in Sarasota, Florida with a new
Speaker 4: identity and passing himself off as a respectable person. So
Speaker 4: that is really what this Grigory is. Still the same guy.
Speaker 4: I remember, right, he's known as Gregory, doctor Gregory. That's
Speaker 4: what he was doing in America. He's passing himself off.
Speaker 4: Now you look at the all right, he the mythological, fantastical,
Speaker 4: science fiction level supernatural abilities that emerge from him is Secarious. Okay.
Speaker 4: So Secarious is like a spirit that comes out of
Speaker 4: doctor Knoff of Grigory, that character, all right, And in
Speaker 4: so doing, you compare that to Danny Rowling housing a
Speaker 4: murder demon that he called Gemini. Yes, now, in the
Speaker 4: book Secarious, the supernatural spirit has some very flashy powers
Speaker 4: that he uses. In the true story of Danny rolling Jimi,
Speaker 4: he attributed the powers to Gemini that were very trivial.
Speaker 4: And the example is when he went to the first
Speaker 4: door in Gainesville and tried to open it. It didn't open,
Speaker 4: and so he prayed the Gemini and said, okay, Jemini,
Speaker 4: you really want me to do this, then open this door.
Speaker 4: So then when he tried it again, it came right open.
Speaker 4: So he said, well that proves it. Say that's the
Speaker 4: way the psychotic mind will work. But at any rate,
Speaker 4: that was how Danny thought of Gemini, and he felt
Speaker 4: that Gemini was some alien spirit that took advantage of
Speaker 4: his broken hand mind to invade and to will his
Speaker 4: puppet flesh to do evil things. Okay, so it's out
Speaker 4: of his control. Now. I mentioned earlier that flashy aspect,
Speaker 4: high risk aspect that was he called Enad. Inad is
Speaker 4: the word Danny backwards, kay, But he distinguishes Ad that
Speaker 4: is a pretty rough guy. Inad is the guy who
Speaker 4: knew how to do time. Quite frankly, he little Danny
Speaker 4: was not the kind of person who could handle being
Speaker 4: in jail. Little Danny is curled up somewhere, completely silent inside,
Speaker 4: and Inad walks the yard like a man. Okay, So
Speaker 4: that's Inad. But Gemini he has uneasy relationship with. So
Speaker 4: that's the comparison I make to the character that from
Speaker 4: which the murdered demons Curious emerges in a similar way.
Speaker 1: Okay, insecarious there are elements of Frankenstein, it seems. With
Speaker 1: the electrodes attached to the women's temples, Yeah, you create
Speaker 1: this different character. Yeah, But throughout this entire story he
Speaker 1: seems like a decent writer, a very good writer. But
Speaker 1: the immaturity of the sexual relations in the book is noticeable. Yes,
Speaker 1: and it does demonstrate something about Danny Rowling and how
Speaker 1: he views women, especially because he has all the freedom
Speaker 1: in the world to write about them anyway he wants.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because because I gave him that freedom, and so
Speaker 4: that's why. And so that's the only way you're going
Speaker 4: to find out what's in there. You can't be standing
Speaker 4: their wagon your finger. Oh no, No, that's naughty. You
Speaker 4: can't say that. You know, you have to say I
Speaker 4: respect your standing as someone who's committed heinous, horrible crimes
Speaker 4: people can't even imagine. And you are sitting there facing
Speaker 4: your execution for this. You were sitting on death row
Speaker 4: in the worst neighborhood in the world. Everybody around you
Speaker 4: is crazy and homicidal, and there you are. I respect
Speaker 4: that you.
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is that it's very interesting that
Speaker 1: how his attitudes towards women. Ultimately, this murderer of women,
Speaker 1: revealing his attitudes in this book and the absolute immaturity
Speaker 1: that he has about sexual relations itself. He's talking like
Speaker 1: he read he had only read Penthouse Forum back in
Speaker 1: the day, and that's how he understands the relationship with
Speaker 1: a woman.
Speaker 4: Yes, it wasn't just women. Going back to making a
Speaker 4: serial killer, he relays out he thought maybe joining organized
Speaker 4: crime would be a good idea at one point, and
Speaker 4: that was just the carnival. It's just the clown show
Speaker 4: where he tried to get in with the mafia and
Speaker 4: really fell on his butt like a bozo, and he
Speaker 4: reveals that he just didn't know how to act.
Speaker 1: You write about some of the things that he had
Speaker 1: said later Danny Rowling had said about his experience as
Speaker 1: a killer. There was some controversy and about whether he
Speaker 1: had accidentally killed Krista Hoyt or that it was a
Speaker 1: lucky cut, but he explains exactly what that was about.
Speaker 4: Oh, those experts really were in a tizzy over this case,
Speaker 4: and there were a lot of careers that were ruined
Speaker 4: because it was Keystone Cops. From the very beginning, Danny
Speaker 4: Rowling and stood up in the middle a broad daylight
Speaker 4: Stritcher's shirt off, took a big honking pistol and ran
Speaker 4: to a bank, screaming everybody did, vaulting over the counter,
Speaker 4: smashing the camera with his gun, give me all your money.
Speaker 4: He goes okay, making a huge spectacle of himself as
Speaker 4: a gunman robbing a bank, and in that very same night,
Speaker 4: the very same guy is creeping around in the dark
Speaker 4: with a knife committing sex crimes against females who are
Speaker 4: at home in bed. Now, the science of profiling might
Speaker 4: as well just go home and take a nap, because
Speaker 4: they cannot make head nor tails out of that, you see.
Speaker 4: And the reason is because he's multiple personality. That was
Speaker 4: a different personality who committed those two very very different
Speaker 4: types of crimes.
Speaker 1: You're writ in this book that he was raised with
Speaker 1: some type of religious background, but sense of that, and
Speaker 1: he was religious at for a time anyway, And throughout
Speaker 1: the story there is this again struggle between good and evil.
Speaker 1: He still has that within his mindset, doesn't he He was.
Speaker 4: Very religious and up until his death, when he died,
Speaker 4: he was singing a song of thanks and praise none
Speaker 4: greater than the Oh Lord. Okay, he never his religion
Speaker 4: was never far from his very very deep commitment. And
Speaker 4: I think going to his analysis of the figures in
Speaker 4: the book when I talk about the law enforcement figures,
Speaker 4: because it's we find out that he Danny roll In.
Speaker 4: In the center of Danny Rowling, he has a respect
Speaker 4: for the law and a respect for the proper behavior
Speaker 4: and for honorable behavior. So he has created a character
Speaker 4: the FBI special agent that he is the ultimate good
Speaker 4: guy caught. And then you have a couple of other
Speaker 4: policemen in there that are for comic relief, they're idiots' rules.
Speaker 4: And then you have a bureaucrat cop that sits on
Speaker 4: the top and doesn't do anything. But in all those
Speaker 4: police you never have a James Harrold Rowling, the giant
Speaker 4: with the big stick, the making of the serial killer.
Speaker 4: There is no character like that among the law enforcement officers, okay,
Speaker 4: which is really noticeable with the dogs that didn't bark.
Speaker 4: And if you pick those in the conglomerate of all
Speaker 4: of his characterizations of those in law enforcement, you would
Speaker 4: find that part of Danny, who would have been just
Speaker 4: delighted to have been a cop, to enforce the law,
Speaker 4: to be responsible for correcting people when they committed these crimes. Remember,
Speaker 4: he came to me wanting to be killed for what
Speaker 4: he'd done. He did not come to me proud of
Speaker 4: it or happy about the situation. He was very, very religious,
Speaker 4: and it was not a posed. It was the central
Speaker 4: fact of his life. But if there is a if
Speaker 4: this troubles the listener to try to wrap their mind
Speaker 4: around the evil behavior along with the worship of godly qualities,
Speaker 4: I would have to direct them to Romans seven. And
Speaker 4: I'm not going to sit here in a quote scripture,
Speaker 4: but in Roman seven, which is something Danny Rowland grew
Speaker 4: my attention to the sinner, the bad guy bemoans the
Speaker 4: fact that he loves the law, he loves God, and
Speaker 4: that's what he wants to do, and yet his behavior
Speaker 4: is bad. And that is the peculiar situation of the
Speaker 4: sinner that believes in right righteousness but finds himself the
Speaker 4: one doing unrighteousness. Okay, that is Danny's rollings existential pernundrum.
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Speaker 1: You talked about this respect that throughout this story, it
Speaker 1: seems for law enforcement, but also that we didn't mention
Speaker 1: that his father was a police officer and he was
Speaker 1: traumatized by an event that even though he was attacked
Speaker 1: then as a child, later as an adult, he cites
Speaker 1: a particularly traumatic event where his father in the squad
Speaker 1: car in uniform. He was sleeping and he came into
Speaker 1: his house and gave him a savage beating which he.
Speaker 4: Jumped on him. Dan he was sound asleep in bed
Speaker 4: with a knife, jumped on him, put a knife to
Speaker 4: his third.
Speaker 1: But despite all of this, he still said that he
Speaker 1: loved his father, that there still was that despite this trauma,
Speaker 1: despite nothing but horrible childhood memories. He still loved his father,
Speaker 1: so this respect for law enforcement seems to be theming
Speaker 1: from that.
Speaker 4: That's why he was a divided person. That's why it
Speaker 4: was not well mentally. Okay, the people that you meet,
Speaker 4: and most of you will never meet anyone whose personality
Speaker 4: is completely divided. Most of you will never meet anyone.
Speaker 4: But if you do, you only meet one part of
Speaker 4: them anyway till you go your way, and you'll never
Speaker 4: know the difference. It takes prolonged exposure to a person
Speaker 4: to really realize how profound this condition is. And fortunately
Speaker 4: it's very rare that you jumped to the part where
Speaker 4: James Harold attacked him with a knife. But if you
Speaker 4: don't mind going to the precursor to that, yes, because
Speaker 4: there is a concept that everyone should study up on
Speaker 4: called epigenetics. Epigenetics we know how our DNA carries traits
Speaker 4: from one generation to another. Epigenetics is the new twist
Speaker 4: on that where we're learning how the events of our
Speaker 4: lives change the messaging that's carried by that DNA, and
Speaker 4: when the child inherits that DNA, they're inheriting messages that
Speaker 4: it came through the life experience of their sire. Okay,
Speaker 4: so we have to go back to Danny Rowling's sire.
Speaker 4: His name was James Harold. Okay, James Harold Rolling. When
Speaker 4: he was a little boy, sitting at the dinner table
Speaker 4: with his family, his grandfather got up and hut his
Speaker 4: grandmother's throat right there at the table, yes, and filled
Speaker 4: her right in front of the family. Now, listen, when
Speaker 4: someone does something like that, they are not just committing murder.
Speaker 4: They're not just ending the life of the victim. They
Speaker 4: are transmitting a message. Okay. They are using that knife
Speaker 4: to cause fear. Okay, that is terror rison, that's what
Speaker 4: we call terror vison calling it causing fear. So this
Speaker 4: is how the knife is used and Danny's DNA messaging. Okay.
Speaker 4: Because James Harold never let the family forget it. James
Speaker 4: Harold would take out his gun and waited and say
Speaker 4: I'm gonna get you. Or he'd take that knife and
Speaker 4: he'd flip the blade out and needs slide down and
Speaker 4: he'd said, somebody open, just like that. This is the
Speaker 4: way he talked to his family. He used the knife
Speaker 4: and would constantly remind him about how his grandfather cut
Speaker 4: his grandmother's throat and went to prison for the rest
Speaker 4: of his life. Okay, so those are as deep, as
Speaker 4: traumatic and as significant as they can be when it
Speaker 4: comes to a knife man, the secarious after all his
Speaker 4: life of crime and all the things he did, the
Speaker 4: term is secarious. It's about the knife.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's interesting. The character the servant girl and this
Speaker 1: flat theme about pituitary gland seems smacks of bathory and
Speaker 1: supposed motive that again she is killing young servant girls
Speaker 1: to gain immortality.
Speaker 4: To recapture the youth she saw she saw slipping away.
Speaker 1: But also the name of that one woman, that servant
Speaker 1: girl was Seka, which has a reference to Secarius and
Speaker 1: the knife as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's full of little Easter eggs like that. But
Speaker 4: if you don't mind, deliver a little bit of a spoiler,
Speaker 4: because it's interesting and people may not want to read
Speaker 4: the book, but they may want to think about this.
Speaker 4: Absolutely at the end, at the very end of the book,
Speaker 4: I talk about the characters, as I mentioned that they're
Speaker 4: all fictional. Okay. The only character and here is real,
Speaker 4: was a woman named Kap and Kath really was Danny
Speaker 4: Rowling's girlfriend, and she really was a Saicanic witch, and
Speaker 4: that was what she called herself, and that is how
Speaker 4: she presented herself, and that is how Danny Rowling saw
Speaker 4: her as a Satanic witch. Okay, So I know that
Speaker 4: one of the most profound parts of Danny was his
Speaker 4: spiritual commitment to his Lord and Savior, and that he
Speaker 4: knew he was facing the end of his natural life,
Speaker 4: and that he told me many times that he wanted
Speaker 4: to clear the slate. He didn't want to go to
Speaker 4: his maker without confessing to everything he had done. Now,
Speaker 4: when I read this book and I see what this
Speaker 4: character that is one of his surguts, has done in
Speaker 4: the pages of this fictional scenario he contrived, it makes
Speaker 4: me wonder if Danny Rowling has found a way to
Speaker 4: put that confession on the record in the way that
Speaker 4: it is encrypted as fiction. I knew the young lady
Speaker 4: cath and we talked on the phone and we corresponded.
Speaker 4: I never met her in person, but there was one
Speaker 4: occasion where Cap told me that Danny Rowling had not
Speaker 4: told me everything that happened at the Christa Hoyt murder scene,
Speaker 4: and that it was much worse. She said, it went
Speaker 4: much further, and I just took her comment. I did
Speaker 4: not probe, and she never said another thing. Missus Cath
Speaker 4: disappeared off of the Internet after her work was done,
Speaker 4: and I had not heard from her since then, and
Speaker 4: I wish that she would contact me and see if
Speaker 4: she would share with me what Danny told her. But
Speaker 4: here's the suspicion I put in the pages of this
Speaker 4: book in my reflections. But Danny Rowling was afraid to
Speaker 4: tell me that he had eaten human flesh because he
Speaker 4: was afraid that I could not tolerate it and would
Speaker 4: abandon him. And my company was the give that I
Speaker 4: brought him right. So now I wonder that when he
Speaker 4: had a companion who was admittedly a Satanic witch who
Speaker 4: held rituals invoking the presence of Lucifer, that maybe that
Speaker 4: made him believe that she would still accept him if
Speaker 4: she knew he had eaten human flesh. So I opened
Speaker 4: the door on the very last page to wondering what
Speaker 4: really happened to the pituitary gland of Krystal Hoyd. And
Speaker 4: guess what It's going to be an unsolved mystery because
Speaker 4: that topsy is sealed.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: I called his lawyer and told her I just really
Speaker 4: wanted to know if I could find out if her
Speaker 4: pituitary was intact, and she said it could not be done,
Speaker 4: that the autopsy was sealed.
Speaker 1: Fascinating. I want to thank you Sondra London for coming
Speaker 1: on and talking about Secarius. Sondra London presents Death Row
Speaker 1: Fiction by a Serial Killer. Tell us about any social
Speaker 1: media you do, and if you have a website, tell
Speaker 1: us how people might find out more about books that
Speaker 1: you have written, and this book in particular.
Speaker 4: I wish everybody we'd go to my website, and that
Speaker 4: is Sondra London dot com s O n d R
Speaker 4: l O n d O in Sondra London dot com.
Speaker 4: I have so much content on there that you can read,
Speaker 4: and on each one of those items that concern us
Speaker 4: one of my books, you will find a link that
Speaker 4: says buy this book and that will take you to Amazon.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sondra London. Secarius. Sondra London
Speaker 1: presents Death Row Fiction by a Serial Killer. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for this interview. It's been a fascinating time
Speaker 1: speaking with you. Thank you so much for this interview,
Speaker 1: and good night