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Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 27 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:46.319 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good. 30 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:50.040 Evening from his cell on Death Row in Florida. Confess 31 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:53.959 serial killer Danny Rowling started writing and illustrating this novel 32 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:58.560 about the daggerman Secarius in nineteen ninety nine, seven years 33 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:02.200 before his two thousand and six execution for the five 34 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:06.719 murders he committed. In nineteen ninety drawing on years of research, 35 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:11.759 Rolling follows zoologist Sir Windsor Ashmole to the African island 36 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:17.759 of Moritus to assist doctor Borgum Konoff in saving endangered species, 37 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:21.719 but the doctor's dabbling in sinister forces, torturing the island's 38 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:25.360 girls in a mad quest for immortality as an alien relic, 39 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:29.120 gives him the superhuman powers of a cecarius. Caught in 40 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:32.560 the act, Konoff escapes to Boston, where he goes on 41 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:36.439 a murder rampage. Ashmole helps police track him, but the 42 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:39.520 power of the Relic is still protecting the elusive Secarius. 43 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:42.840 As the powers that be close in on the crazed killer, 44 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.639 a deal with the forces of darkness is broker by 45 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:48.240 a witch whose name is cath a nod to the 46 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.479 woman who served as Rollings muse in real life at 47 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:54.159 the time he dreamed up the tale. The novel was 48 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:57.680 published in two thousand and two by Plot Digger Publications, 49 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.439 a corporation owned by Canadian film maker Ryan Nicholson, who 50 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.879 died in twenty nineteen without renewing the copyright, so the 51 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.599 book was orphaned until twenty twenty two when Sondra London 52 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:11.879 gave new life to this tale that Rowling had originally 53 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:14.159 asked her to publish. The book that were featured in 54 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:18.080 this sevening is Sicarius. Sondra London presents Death Row Fiction 55 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:21.520 by a Serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and 56 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:25.960 author and true crime author Sondra London. Welcome to the program, 57 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:28.960 and thank you so much for this interview. Sondra London. 58 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.759 Oh, thank you, Dan, You're my favorite podcaster. 59 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:37.520 Thank you so much, Sondra London, and congratulations on this 60 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.680 very very interesting book. Let's talk about right from the 61 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:47.000 very beginning, you in the introduction call this warnings about 62 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:51.000 free speech and the new normal, calls for warnings on 63 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.400 anything that might offend anyone. You write about Securius was 64 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.719 written by a serial killer on death row tell us 65 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:01.520 why free speech is so important as actually in regards 66 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:02.199 to this book. 67 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:06.840 Okay, well, I'm a free speech radical. I don't believe 68 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:12.120 in any form of compelled speech or limited speech at all. 69 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:17.040 So that's my personal bias. I've been punished in court, 70 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.519 had my life ruined over this issue. So I'm entitled 71 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:25.279 to speak, and I speak about this book and introductory 72 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:30.360 terms specifically because the world has changed so much since 73 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:34.839 Danny Rowling wrote it, and there are forces at work 74 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:40.000 in our culture that are demanding compelled speech and demanding 75 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.639 that things not be said, the words not be used, 76 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:48.040 and I'm not going to honor any of that. I've 77 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:54.360 published this myself because anytime a establishment publisher gets a 78 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:58.560 hold of materials such as I've produced over the years, 79 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:01.240 they want to they really want to censor it, let's 80 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:05.600 put it that way, and it's not helpful. I think 81 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:12.879 that censoring the thoughts and expressions specifically involving violence. I 82 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:17.920 don't think that it accomplishes what they imagine it should, 83 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:25.399 it doesn't stop violence. Instead, it drives the violent impulse 84 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:30.079 deeper into the darkness, and in the dark side of 85 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.160 the personality is where all the powerful drives are that 86 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:38.319 we lose control off. So the more that we are 87 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:43.240 able to deal with things consciously and openly, at least 88 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:47.839 we won't have these shadow impulses coming along from we 89 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:51.519 don't even know where and causing so much trouble. So 90 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:55.959 I think the impulse to censor all expression until it 91 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:00.000 is inoffensive is very wrong. And I think it's very 92 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.079 very wrong when it comes to violence because at this point, 93 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:07.399 violence is easy to commit at a distance and without 94 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:12.279 any visceral involvement. And I believe that there's a lot 95 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:16.519 of people who are seduced into committing violence because they 96 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.120 don't realize what it means and what it does and 97 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:23.279 what it does to themselves. And so I think if 98 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:26.800 we really listen to people like Nanny Rowling who've been 99 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.720 there and done that, there are things that they have 100 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:34.120 learned that we need to learn. We can't learn them. 101 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.759 And we're not going to cross that fatal line and 102 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:38.959 we're not going to break the law and become killers. 103 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:41.519 But we would like to know what they learned from 104 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:43.959 the other side, and the way you do that is 105 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:44.959 by communication. 106 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:50.399 You write about transgressive writing that criminal behavior is transgressive 107 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:54.199 for involves violating the boundaries of the social contract. Tell 108 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:55.720 us about transgressive fiction. 109 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:59.279 Well, I'm just giving an official notice. That is very 110 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.920 nature of this document. We are dealing with the behavior 111 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:08.199 that crosses boundaries, and so please do not bring in 112 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:15.439 an inappropriate censorship mindset to this book. If you don't 113 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:20.800 like that, then just close that book sooner the better. 114 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.360 Tell us about your first book, death Row fiction. 115 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:29.959 My first book was Knocking on Joe Voices from Death Row, 116 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:34.319 and I had set out in this Zene revolution. Remember 117 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:38.879 in the eighties, I coached venes which were like a 118 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:44.959 self published small magazines that you could order directly from 119 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.040 the publisher. That was viens right, And so I was 120 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:51.759 doing that and I had imprint called Media Queen. And 121 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:55.439 so this is gentleman. Paul Woods from UK writes to 122 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:57.800 me and says, I want to become a publisher and 123 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.879 I want to publish your stuff you published on your 124 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.720 Media Queen, and I want to call it Knocking on 125 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:08.160 Joe Voices from Death row because there's a Nick Cave 126 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:12.959 song about it, and I'm like whatever. So that was 127 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.079 the book. That was how it got published. Got published 128 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:19.720 in England to very small circulation, but it made a 129 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:24.279 big impact because in England no one's allowed to talk 130 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:28.319 to prisoners. Interesting, this book was full of all this 131 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:33.639 inside baseball, you know, inside American prisons. So in England 132 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.159 it was quite impactful. 133 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:38.159 You read about your next book, killer fiction with the 134 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:43.240 serial killer's actual fantasies and false confessions. Tell us about that. 135 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:47.679 Gerard John Schaefer is where I started because I knew 136 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:49.840 him when I was a teenager and he was a 137 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:53.000 nice boy. I dated for a year, and it was 138 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.159 nine years later that he hit the headlines as a 139 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:00.480 serial killer. It was a roague cop of practice, seeing 140 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:05.360 his homicidal line passes behind the badge, and we see 141 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:09.600 in nineteen seventy three that he went to prison for life. 142 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:13.039 And then the only thing that happened of interest to 143 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:17.200 our story here is that we came up to nineteen 144 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:20.120 eighty eight. We'll just have to skip a lot, folks, 145 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:23.000 because we only have a little time. So up in 146 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.759 eighty eight, I was making a good living as a 147 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:31.440 technical writer, consultant, but the economy was bad. So I 148 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.159 was looking around and they executed Bundy, and all the 149 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:39.840 news was about serial killers, and so I said, I 150 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:43.240 knew a serial killer better than Anne Rule did, so 151 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:45.759 let me just see if I can write a book 152 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.840 about that. I thought it would just be, you know, 153 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.320 a project, one of many projects, and I would go 154 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.799 on other things. But it was not to be. I 155 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.440 started out with Schaeffer, and it's just that one thing 156 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:00.559 led to another. 157 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:04.519 Tell us about the beginnings of the five years you 158 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:07.919 spent with Danny Rowling. Tell us about the origins of 159 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:08.840 your correspondence. 160 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:12.559 Listen, yea, how quick I can make this transition. So 161 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.960 I'm working with Shaeffer. Along comes Bobby Lewis, who says 162 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:23.120 I have better stories than Shaeffer. Published my stories, and 163 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:26.720 he said, I escaped from death row and when they 164 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:30.240 brought me back, they put me alone on death row 165 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:35.360 with Ted Bundy. So I have these stories. So I'm like, oh, okay. 166 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:41.320 And so I worked on stories of Bobby's for about 167 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:44.679 a year or so, and then when they brought Danny 168 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:50.000 Rolling in after he'd been charged with five murders that 169 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:54.480 he had committed nineteen ninety they put him with Bobby Lewis, 170 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:59.720 and Bobby Lewis showed Danny Rowling the screenplay I had 171 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:04.559 written about Bobby Lewis's escape from Depth row It was 172 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.320 called Redbone, and it's a great story, but I don't 173 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:13.399 say so myself. But Danny Rowling saw that script, Redbone, 174 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:15.919 and he said, whoever wrote this, I want them to 175 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.799 help me write my story. And he wrote to me 176 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.240 and asked me to help him work on his story 177 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:22.799 with him. 178 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.759 Now, ideally you would have wanted to visit with him personally. 179 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.039 That didn't happen. Tell us why and how was this 180 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:33.519 book written and how did you collaborate between you? 181 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:38.039 Naturally, everyone knew that we wanted this pation. So therefore 182 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:41.440 that was used to manipulate Danny Rowling, the fact that 183 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:45.679 that's what he wanted. And so it's a long story, 184 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.440 quite a long story, and really beyond the scope of 185 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:54.279 a few minutes together here. But the desire to visit 186 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:58.720 was manipulated by the State's Attorney's Office Number one, number two. 187 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:03.200 Danny Rowling had death wish and you want he was 188 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:09.080 guilty and he wanted to be executed and to pay 189 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:14.600 for his crimes and Danny Rowling insisted that I cooperate 190 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:19.440 with him and the State's Attorney's office to ensure that 191 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.960 he'd be executed. Now this is the story you will 192 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:29.519 hear about my role with Danny Rowling. You won't hear 193 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.879 it because of certain reasons that were timely at the time. 194 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.519 But now I can talk a little bit more about 195 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:42.120 really happened there. Our desire to visit was used to 196 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:47.360 coerce a confession from Danny Rowling that led to his execution. 197 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:53.000 Both Danny and I were very frustrated and found it 198 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:58.200 very difficult to work together. But look unintended consequences, y'all. 199 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:02.039 That's what made the story I have so rock solid, 200 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:06.919 because every single thing isn't writing and it's in his words. 201 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.440 You don't have to rely on me going into a visit, 202 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:14.159 not allowed a pencil, not allowed of paper, much less 203 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:18.080 a tape recorder, talk to him for eight hours, and 204 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.559 come out and try to write about it. Okay, you 205 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:25.120 don't have that with this case. Absolutely you have is 206 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.120 it had to be in his own words, and that 207 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.480 makes it all the more authentic. The forces that were 208 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:36.559 posing Danny Rowling and myself didn't want any good at 209 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:40.320 all to come out of our interaction, but their very 210 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:43.000 efforts to stop it made it better. 211 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:47.360 Now, tell us about your writing coach, you as a 212 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.519 writing coach, and how you introduced him to the world 213 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.399 of self expression. He had told you about his songs. 214 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.440 He was very proud of the songs he had written. 215 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.960 Tell us about this introduction into the world of self expression. 216 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.279 Why did you do this, what did you believe you 217 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.440 might gain from this? Tell us about this project? 218 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.240 Okay, I had come off or let's said, started with 219 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.799 John Shafer. John Jafer had a degree in creative writing 220 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.600 along with criminal justice. He wasn't as smart as me, 221 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:21.559 but compared to your average prisoner, he was the regular Einstein, 222 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:29.200 and he was very creative and prolific in expressing himself 223 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:33.960 in writing. Then you're Bobby Lewis, a high school drop 224 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:37.799 out but mister personality and had a winning way with words, 225 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:42.639 very fluent and easy. And then your autist Toole, who 226 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:47.399 was illiterate and required a whole different approach. And so 227 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:51.440 then came Danny Rowling. And Danny Rowling's problem was that 228 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:59.159 he was psychologically in very poor condition. And he says himself, 229 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.720 he's had dozens of shrinks plowing through his mind, and 230 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:06.440 they all come to different conclusions. But you can just 231 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.720 say that he was very mentally ill, and he was 232 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:16.600 a trauma veteran. He had been abused since before he 233 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:21.360 was born. It's on the record witnessed and sworn that 234 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:26.360 his father kicked that pregnant abdomen, that his father strangled 235 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:31.399 that pregnant woman and threw her downstairs. So the abuse 236 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.519 on Danny started before he was even a real baby. 237 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:40.919 So he had in some no self esteem and he 238 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.879 didn't have enough self esteem to express himself. And his 239 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.879 very first record though, he was so excited about a 240 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.279 tape he had made with songs on it that that 241 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:54.200 was in his very first introductory letter to me. I 242 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:57.080 have this tape. I can't wait for you to hear it. 243 00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:01.840 And so that was a that went on and on 244 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:05.080 and on, but just to say that's how important it 245 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:09.399 was to Danny Okay, that he had reached out in 246 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:12.639 this way to the world to express himself and that 247 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:16.720 he wanted to share that with me immediately. So as 248 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:21.679 we went along, we started working and asking him prompts 249 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:25.759 and working back and forth and showing him better ways 250 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:29.480 to get across the things that he was trying to 251 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:34.519 do interactively. And there was a little sentence that I 252 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.799 thought was kind of cute that I've put excerpted for 253 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.559 the Making of a Serial Killer, Reese, and look where 254 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.399 it comes to writing, and you're like a Ferrari and 255 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.840 I'm more like a go cart that you know, it 256 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:51.960 was funny, but that was true. But he handled it 257 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.759 in the best way possible, and you know, to laugh 258 00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:00.159 at himself and to continue to improve it was It's 259 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:04.079 like bringing water for the first time to a plant 260 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:09.079 that had been wrongfully thrown into the desert. And the 261 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:14.279 way that he grew with his skills was just it 262 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:17.960 was gratifying to me, okay, working with him, but it 263 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.319 was also quite astonishing. I mean, you just really wouldn't 264 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:25.880 believe the human creature would be capable. When I first 265 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:30.079 started with him, he could barely write a letter, and 266 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.799 by the time we got to the point four, about 267 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.960 four and a half years later, he wrote his confessions, 268 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:42.359 The Murder Confessions. He wrote twenty twenty three page documents 269 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:46.319 that didn't require a single change in a coma of 270 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:51.559 phrase nothing. They were published exactly as he was able 271 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:54.200 to come to terms with being able to do it 272 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:58.480 now with his art work again. It was heartbreaking to 273 00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:01.799 see how all this talent was married. And he'd be 274 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.880 writing a letter along and then he would burst into 275 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.680 pictures like you know on a play where they burst 276 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:12.079 into song, right, would burst into graphics. And to start, 277 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:14.720 you know, he's writing words and then he's it's a 278 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:17.680 picture and everything, and I'm like, and then he draws 279 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:22.039 really good ones, and then I'm like, Danny, you're an artist. 280 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:25.400 Now what I want you to do? And you want 281 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.559 to draw a picture, Take a page all by itself, 282 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.160 draw the picture, sign it and date it, okay, And 283 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:38.400 like a dream student, he'd just suck that right up, 284 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.839 and anyone who asks anything from Danny Rowling knows that 285 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:47.359 it's dated and signed. He'd put his initials on the 286 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:50.559 bottom of every one of the five thousand pages of 287 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:55.039 letters that he sent me once I gave him that instruction, 288 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.920 and then he began because he could see himself reflect 289 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.799 fit in my eyes, and he could see the value there, 290 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:08.960 and that gave him the confidence to go ahead and 291 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:13.240 try things. And that he wouldn't dare. He wouldn't dare 292 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:16.160 do anything. He was like a huddled up, little dry 293 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.880 shell of a person. It's a drawing he did of 294 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.279 a tree. Half of it is dead, the other half 295 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.200 is haunted, and the only animation is a tiny, little, 296 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.599 tiny little face about as big as a baseball at 297 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.359 the heart of the tree. And that's how his true 298 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.359 spirit had to hide from the constant trauma that had 299 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:40.240 been visited upon him. So that was a condition he 300 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:43.440 was in, and so the work that we did was 301 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:47.880 able to just rehabilitate his condition. In general, and of course, 302 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.359 being incarcerated I think is healthy because you have a 303 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:54.799 regular schedule, you have regular food, you have a place 304 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:59.680 to sleep, and everything is predictable, well everything, of course, 305 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:01.920 but you know what I mean. And so a person 306 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.839 doesn't have to make a lot of decisions and maybe 307 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:08.880 foolish decisions. And so I think I've seen a number 308 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.480 of cases whereas after the person is taken into custody, 309 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:16.279 after about sixty days there they are stable enoughter where 310 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:19.880 they can a real personality. He's able to be exhibited. 311 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:23.960 Right, tell us what the secarious title, where it comes from, 312 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.319 Where it's derived from, Where likely Danny Rowling had read 313 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:28.440 about it or heard about it. 314 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:32.119 Okay, we're talking about the Middle East there, and that 315 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:36.279 area would cover many countries at this point, but broadly 316 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.839 in the Middle East. There was a word sicca as 317 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:44.000 i CII would spell it in English, but it crossed 318 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:50.519 both your Hebrew and your sandsprit and various language Rootstika 319 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:54.200 means a knife, okay, means something you stick with, hold 320 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.960 it in your hand and stick somebody with it time 321 00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.440 and time again. That was called a cicca. So were 322 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.559 you to go on Google and search the word sicca, 323 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:06.279 the pictures that would come up would look different. That 324 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.839 merely speaks to how broad this phenomenon was. That you 325 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.079 looked different in different times in places, but they are sicca. 326 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.200 So here's how this came down. This was when the 327 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:26.079 Romans conquered the Jews and they occupied Jerusalem. Okay, many 328 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:30.960 of the Jews fought this occupation, and they were called Vella. 329 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:35.880 They were very vellous about fighting to keep Jerusalem Jewish. 330 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:42.880 The sekari I were the first to cloak and dagger assassins. 331 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:47.759 They wore a cloak and they carried asika, and they 332 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:53.920 a sicarius would go into the marketplace, a crowded venue, 333 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:58.440 maybe in the temple, where there are many people bustling 334 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:03.400 up against one another and pull dagger out and stab 335 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:06.920 the victim, and then further ends to pretend to be 336 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:09.960 scared and run away. Everybody runs away and it's all 337 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.079 confusing and they never get caught. The thing that made 338 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:18.240 them different from Zella's was the Sekarii. There at Masada, 339 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:24.880 we're killing collaborators. Okay, they were killing the Jews who 340 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.880 were going along with the occupation. So that's what differentiated 341 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.519 them from the Zoahs. Today we hear the word sicario 342 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:42.839 used in pop culture because it's used in Latin America 343 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:48.319 and it means the same thing, an assassin stabber. Now, 344 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.720 where did Danny Rowling get the idea of secari eye 345 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.200 in the first place, kind of an exotic word. Well, 346 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:01.039 we will point out that Paul the Apostle mention the 347 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:05.720 Secarii and the Book of Acts, so it's quite possible 348 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:07.920 that that's where he first heard the word. 349 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:13.000 Now you talk about Secarius when you were his writing 350 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:17.359 coach and his editor and encouraging his artwork and the 351 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:19.960 inclusion of that in this story. Did he tell you 352 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.119 why he chose the title Secarius? 353 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.680 No, he never did. He just wrote it to me. 354 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:31.519 This is something starting to write now called Secarius, and 355 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:33.720 I didn't know what it meant. I had to look 356 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.079 it up. 357 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:38.880 So tell us more about this process of encouragement and 358 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:43.279 this writing coach and the development of this story. 359 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:48.519 Okay, so you remember we were working together, collaborating by 360 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.599 correspondence in order to do this book. I was sued 361 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.680 before the book was written, so that mistake could threaten 362 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.440 me to stop, stop, don't do this. And as I 363 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:03.240 pointed out to them, I'm not doing this for the money. 364 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.480 I'm doing this because you're telling me not to and 365 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.279 I'm not going to allow you to do that. That 366 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.680 this is my project. And they said that they were 367 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:16.759 going to seize my profits before it was even written, 368 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:20.200 and that's you know, that's not lawful. You might be 369 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:23.039 aware of that, but that was what was done. So 370 00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:27.920 we proceed working in that manner, disregarding all the difficulties 371 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:30.720 that were being put upon us in that way. Meanwhile, 372 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:35.200 be any World and continued to petition for visitation, and 373 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:40.079 we continued to go through an elaborate rigmarole every time, 374 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:43.559 with new made up rules and new made up reasons 375 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.400 and all that. At one point they said that okay, 376 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:51.759 we were friends, but our friendship was not leading to marriage. 377 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.519 So that's why they would refuse us visitation. So we 378 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.519 consulted among ourselves and said, okay, it needs to make marriage, 379 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.319 and then they had another new rule, right, so it 380 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.240 never ended. During the time I was working with him, 381 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:12.240 he became very wise about what I meant about an 382 00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:16.359 exclusive story. He saw all the suffering I was going 383 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:19.240 through because I was working with him, and he became 384 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.160 more and more compassionate of my position and very very 385 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:27.599 protective of his own story in order to keep our 386 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.400 project going, and because it had to be exclusive, and 387 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.559 that put him in another kind of isolation because he 388 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:38.799 was by me, he was correspond with anyone. And once 389 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.079 we got the confessions written, once we got Making a 390 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:47.400 Serial Killer published, then there came a day where the 391 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:52.720 warden came to Danny Rowling's cell, which is very very rare, 392 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:56.519 but he did and told him he might as well 393 00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.359 give it up because he was never going to see me. 394 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:04.440 And at that point Danny Rowling conceded the battle and 395 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.599 said he was going to have to just give this up, 396 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:12.640 this exclusive arrangement. So at that point we both said, okay, 397 00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.559 you can write anyone, you can do anything you want. 398 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.759 You're free no obligation to me. He still had an 399 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.000 obligation to me regarding the murder confessions up in Louisiana, 400 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:27.000 which he respected until the moment of his execution. He 401 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.759