Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome. I am Kerry Anne and this is seventh
Sanctum and this evening. As always, I'm being joined with
my co host Natalie. Have I heard Natalie? How are
you all right?
Speaker 2: Thank you? Everybody else is okay?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? For me, today has been the most Monday's Mondays
for many days that could ever happen. I don't know
whether this is universe or of course everyone else as well,
but what day. It's been an interesting one. I don't
know what's what the planets are doing, or whether it's
what's happening, but it's been a weird one today.
Speaker 2: What about you? Me in particular, I've been trying to
stay out of trouble. It's nice hiding it home home today,
trying to stay out trouble.
Speaker 1: It's far less peoplely in here. Absolutely, this evening, we've
been joined with Lou and Ben. Welcome. Thank you so
much for joining us. How are you you're right?
Speaker 3: Guys? Hi?
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for having us.
Speaker 5: Braine, like you said, absolutely, I personally, I think maybe
we should give this a little bit of space.
Speaker 1: It's honorous and name it a little bit. I don't
know what's been going on today, it seems got so
many different people. We've had lots of things happen, so
I don't know whether it's numerology or whether it's the
way the planets are sitting. I have no idea. Are
you guys aware of anything that could be happening today
that can impact everything everything in the world?
Speaker 3: Rough well, there is.
Speaker 2: There were three planets in retro grade, but they're in
retrograde for quite a long period of time, so I
don't know today in particular. Although eleven eleven supposedly angelic
new morology isn't it, but it's supposed to be good
for manifesting stuff. So unless people are manifesting stuff they
don't want, maybe it's focusing slightly off. I don't know.
I don't know anything else that's going on today, to
be honest.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's been a bit of a strange one.
But thank you guys so much for joining us. I
think when we have guests on, it's always interesting to
know a little bit about you guys, and how you've
got to where you are and what you do now.
I know, briefly before we went live, when we were
talking a little bit about how we'd spoke many years ago,
when you first kind of emerged with I think at
the time, we've done a talk about demonology and a
lot around Egyptian kind of narratives and kind of hypothesis
and stuff. So where are you now? What's what's been
going on since then?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 3: I don't even know where to start, because when we
first spoke, I've just been dragged out of retirement because
I disappeared out of the paranormal world quite at an
early age, intended to stay out of it, and then
I got dragged into it. And now I've been on Bloody,
been dragged onto TV, YouTube and everything.
Speaker 1: It sounds like it sounds like a reluctance. I did
not consent to this.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's I upset a lot of people in the
paranormal world. Okay, I've become more. People have noticed me more,
and a lot of the I'm going to say this now,
these are my own beliefs. So anyone else has a
problem with this, it's just me that you have a
problem with. No one else. But I upset probably nine
and half percent of the demonologists that are out there
because I'm the only one that doesn't believe in demons.
Speaker 1: I was just about to say yes, yeah, I was
going to say, that's a really good place to start.
So I suppose when it comes to demonology, having a
belief or not a belief, it's probably unusual. So what
does that look like when you do have conversations with
other people with the same kind of you know, similar ideologies,
what does that look like?
Speaker 3: The last one retired after twenty five years of doing
being a demonologist, spent part with me. It's it's I
really sound like I'm being I'm trying not to swear,
you know. It's it's not that. The problem is with
demonologists is all the demonologies you get either dawn a
twenty quid course on the internet or they hail from
like one of the single churches that do deemonology basically
all the spiritual church and stuff, so they don't really
look into the history that you get taught when you're
doing it. For the esoteric studies of demons are only used.
It's only a word used by Christianity everything else. They
have other descriptions of what it will be and it
not being a demon, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: So I'm just sorry, I'm just trying to think how
to weird it without.
Speaker 3: So what.
Speaker 2: More like energy forces? So that rather than being demons
and entities like you know, with the specific evil agenda,
they were more like forces of nature.
Speaker 3: Is that what you and the ancient gods ancient gods? Yeah,
Temple not mentioning a certain name because I'm still waiting
for a reply of him. On one day, I'm just
just embarrassing with it. And a certain gentleman on it
was on Prime TV. I didn't want to I can't
remember that it was either on Prime or it was
it was on a said TV show apparently spoke to
a demon called Ball. Just gequick history on Ball is
one of the ancient Samarian gods in the Middle East.
Apparently this gentleman was talking to him in an abandoned
hotel in Wales.
Speaker 1: I think that's a really I find that actually that's
that kind of I'm trying to formulate. I'm allowing it
to marinate and formulate. So I I think that's quite
interesting because actually when I think some of the places
that I've investigated, for example, we went to a derelict
kind of train station and then this energy. Again I'm
being quite vague because I'm a little bit skeptical about
what actually played out, but there was an energy that
proclaimed to be a demon, and it just didn't correlate
with me. It didn't quite make sense. It's the same
when you know, the woman in the Spirituist church says
that she all of a sudden channels Jesus through trance mediumship.
I believe in trance mediumship. I participate in trance mediumship. However,
there's sometimes these things just don't quite match for me.
Speaker 7: Sorry, that's the first time that anyone say that that's
that kind of was against the whole doctrine of the
church being able to channel Jesus through.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it was. We were in Biller Ricky, so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
So I kind of understand the sentiment about the you know,
it just doesn't correlate, and why then, and why why
they're so Yeah, I kind of it will be like
when you.
Speaker 4: Said that the demon said that it was a demon
to you.
Speaker 3: That's the thing.
Speaker 4: We've found that quite often they're not anything like that.
The human spirits just trying to like scaree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because like the tricks, the sort of mythology and
the paranormals quite ubiquitous, isn't it. And it's like that
the few times I've I'm not massively experienced paranormal investigator,
but at the same time, a few times that I've
seen people do in wigi boards and things, it's like,
there's one group I did two or three ghosts ons
with them, and we had what appeared to be a
different spirit every single time we did the wigi board,
but it's way of talking was exactly the same. And
I was saying there, thinking, this spirit is following you
around and taking the mickey. It's totally taking the mickey.
And I turned around and said, I think this is
taking the mickey. There was one where it was masquerading
as a German soldier called Terry, and I was like,
I'm not entirely convinced that Terry is a German name,
and I mean to be fair, as soon as I
called it out, I've got a very very cold feeling
around me. And I was like, oh, I'm in trouble
now because I've called you out. And I wasn't part
of the circle, so I don't think I was kind
of in the protective sphere. But I was just like,
it is taking the mickey out of you. And it's
like and this was the same group and I'd been
on two or three investigations, and I was just like,
this is not what it says it is. It's taking
the mickey, so I could well believe that there's a
a group of spirits on the other side. They're like,
we're gonna have a total laugh with this, because it's
like it's so ludicrous that somebody's believing me. I'm just
going to pretend because you would, wouldn't you if you
still got a sense of humor. On the other side,
he would sort of like play around a bit of
it if you could.
Speaker 3: You yes, about and between four foot and far foot
off the ground round you.
Speaker 2: I was sitting down and I've got no sense of
anything around us at the time, although I knew there
was sort of like activity, but it was very strange.
It was sort of I would say it was circular
in nature and sort of like about just what yeah,
four or five, but I don't know. I can't say
if it was off the ground. So I was sitting down,
but it sort of came over me and sort of
around me, and I was sort of like and then afterwards,
when I left the grew, I felt some it took
put a hand on my back and there was no
one there, so I knew knew there was something, but
it was an odd sense. It was like it felt
like a cold mist for want of a better word,
but it was like circular, like it's no cylinder, if
that makes sense. So it just sort of like, yeah, that.
Speaker 3: Is the stereotypical mark of an entity called a mimic.
Speaker 2: Okay, So yeah, I wasn't far off with the trickster
analogy then, Okay.
Speaker 3: In cortology and esoterics studies and stuff like that I
mentioned as being spirits that will mimic people and do
have a terrible sense of humor. One of the most
famous ones being is and you're you all heard of
this when I say it, the most famous mimic going
around is the mimic Zozo.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: There isn't There is an entity or there is an
old god called that, but the names spelt differently. Okay,
this entity been trapped the past, well since the eighteen hundreds,
has always spelt his name the zo Zo. Bit that's
a mimic. Not so these things have been recorded and
been around for a long time.
Speaker 2: That wouldn't surprise me either, because it's like, say it
was with a wiki board, So it's sort of like
you know from the eighteenth century the seance thing. That's interesting,
So you think it's an entity rather than a person,
or you know it's just masquerading as people, or do
you think it's a person that's just good.
Speaker 3: Were think so I can end up talking out Sorry. Basically,
the studies that have been that have been done since
then with like groups like ghosts, for example, they've been
going around since that since the eighteen hundreds have found
that you do get these mimiced spirits, so they're not human.
They classified as different entities or elementals that do play
on people's beliefs and ideas. And what you don't realize
is that you're sat on a weegeboard. You're actually fueling
it by giving it the information. Because a lot of
people don't go tell me your name. They'll go, oh,
tell me name. What you tell us your name? And
then they'll pronounce the first letter and we're in the
first letters. Humanity has this thing where we have to guess,
have to be proven right that we've guessed right. So
we instantly give them the information, We instantly give them
the name, and they'll just run with that and then
run with everything else.
Speaker 2: About that concurs with my experience. It's like, because the
thing when it sort of like came around me, I
like say, I got the feeling I was being sort
of told off by it a little bit, but it
didn't feel like a human thing, and it did sort
of set Man, I'm not entirely sure I'm safe here,
senses off because I'm annoying it now, But with it
being an entity, that would probably explain it because I
was sensing something slightly different to a normal human spirit.
So are they dangerous or they're just pranksters?
Speaker 3: Well, from what we've seen a study reports and stuff
like that, they've never been dangerous. This is the world
and stuff. They're not mimics, are not dangerous in any way,
shape or form. The only time they can be dangerous,
and this is what's known with another entity that you
get as well, is if kids are involved. Okay, they
are highly protective of children. It children's spirits or actual
children on living children. It can be very protective of
the Okay.
Speaker 1: And how would that how would that present itself? How
would you how would that show what kind of things
could be experienced with that?
Speaker 3: It would instantly start playing on your greatest fears. They'll
pick up on your fears and they will do everything
they can to make you leave the area.
Speaker 1: And how would someone be able to know the difference
between the myriat mimic and what is not a mimic?
Speaker 3: Oh, the human nsity. They'll threaten you would be in
a demon and will be coming from Hell and they'll
bring Satan and everything else with you. A mimic will
generally try to convince you to leave, to go somewhere else,
to go looking somewhere else for them.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's very okay, thank you for sharing that. So
if we think a little bit about you know, the
average show, the average person that's now currently going out
investigating because we're heavily influenced by what we see, and
there's a lot in TV and through different media outlets,
what do you think is the most dangerous conception concept
in terms of demonology and paranormal research that's emerging at
the moment.
Speaker 3: Demonology yourself, I think going into fair there is abandoned
places here.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of urban exploring happening at the moment
into territories that's not saved both from like you don't
know what's in their sort of enterity wise, but also
the whole structure of the building just likely. It seems
to really taken off hands it just going into places.
And you hear there was a lady over in America
the other year. She walked into abandoned building. It'd been
sectioned off, I believe, because it was unsafe, and she
was in the dark, and she just walked out and
plummeted however many feet and died.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: You know it's old well and good going off exploring
these places, but you know, I take a little bit
of precaution for your own safety.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Normally they do suggest you don't do it on your
own anyway, don't they The people that do a little
bit more seriously, they always say, don't don't ever go
anywhere like that on your own. But I would like
to walk around an abandoned building in the dark like
that anyway, you know, like you say, because you just
don't know, you know, you don't know why it's abandoned,
Like you know, the floor go out from under you
and you could just end up somewhere you don't want to.
Speaker 3: Be, especially nowadays as well with a lot of the
old buildings, I believe it or not, I don't do
this is an actual job. Yeah, well, so I work
in the construction industry after most of my life, and
you'd be surprised how many of these old buildings have
got abestos.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah that's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah about that. That is one of the most
painfulest ways to go. You don't want to breathe that
stuff in all.
Speaker 4: Yeah, lady, you see worries.
Speaker 1: And I think as well, Sorry, Ben, oh, you're right,
you go first. I was just going to say, and
I think there's the changing in laws depending where you are.
So for example, in Scotland's there's no laws or policies
or anything in place that stops people from going into
an exploring. We're over here, we've got more trespassing laws
and stuff that kind of protect the land and protect
the property. So I suppose in terms of safeguardian it
gets a little bit more difficult in different areas, isn't it. Really.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of people in this country are just
ignoring it. They're like, oh, yeah, there's the science as
trespasses were prosecuted. Oh there's a security cameras we're going
in any way risk I'll look on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So in terms going men, sorry.
Speaker 3: But there's a there's a place in Darby near us
that a lot of people go investigating in and it's
got a lot of signs up saying no trespassing and
stuff like that, and they post them all on Facebook
and all that. That's fine, but I always say to me,
you need to remember, no, you need to remember who's
watching your pages, because obviously you know with the person
owner and it's watching and we've said location. I always
get a lot of people saying, well that they never know,
they never know, they know because I'm the one that
used to help run the security there and knows the
bloke who owns it. So when I say on them
please don't go in, they suddenly realize that it's you've
just identified that you've gone in. You've given me the
photographic entrance. I will pass it on to the bloke,
will press charges. I have to be careful, wake, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2: People seem to think that they're anonymous when they're online,
even when like you say, they just you know, you've
got your face, your name, you've got the identifying things
in the background and yeah, and everyone seems to think
that nobody watches it, and yeah, you know, like you say,
brief internet search would probably pull up a video if
you've meant you know, Yeah, it is. The Internet's very
strange thing to human perception. It's yeah, it's done weird.
Speaker 3: We're watched a few large where I've seen people, even
paranormal people go to locations and start going, oh, yeah,
this has happened, this has happened, And I will be
starting in the video, not watching, and then all of
a sudden, I go, that's never happened there, or how
do you know? Because I used to work there as well.
Speaker 4: We went on natural when we were part of an
investigation around that area and apparently the English version of
the Texas Chain until massacre happened there and the bodies
were strewn all over the ground.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just like I'm there going, no, it's just
an old building. There was never any murder here. There's
no bonies, No, there's no grapes here or anything like
that whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Funny, isn't it. It's like you'd think there was a
murder in every house. Sometimes it's like it's just like
I think I would have remember that if i'd have
been here.
Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of the time as well,
when when with with some paranormal locations, it's clickbait, isn't it.
It's that it's kind of like fit. As much as
we talk about how we feed into when we're working
with something that might be on the spirit board and
feeding them information to develop that power, it's the same
when we think about content, and there's always that kind
of looking for that bit of adrenaline and chasing that
a little bit and trying to get that reaction. I
know that the the location that we work with, and
it's based in Esex and I know that other locations
have booked it or they do events there, and they've
claimed that Julius Caesar is connected to the location. There's
no links there whatsoever in the whole entire world, just
as much as Jesus didn't turn up in Biller Ricky.
It's it's incredible. So I do.
Speaker 3: A mimic might be there pretending, Yeah, that would probably happen.
Speaker 2: Okay, fairs, we have, we have some some I was
going to say that the entities and the mimics probably
have little clubs. They're like sort of like the Guild
of Jesus impersonate. I'm going to burn in hell. No,
the Guild of Jesus Impersonators. And it's like, oh, you know,
we're all pretend to be Cleopatra. You know they have
little conferences where.
Speaker 8: Each of them what tonight, Yeah, I just I can't.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you need to work on your cleopatrum
impersonation a bit more, get these facts a bit more right.
And it's like, oh, we found this one was a
good one to try. And all that person over there,
she's a great one to play with. When she's on
a weedy board. It's like keep an eye out for
her because she takes she falls for every single time.
You know. It's like I wouldn't be surprised if they do.
It's like share information.
Speaker 1: I know we've spoken a little bit about Ben and
your journey up to this point, but Lou, I know
that you are also you have your own specialties, and
you've been doing some amazing things like Ben over the
last couple of months that I've seen. I'm sure it's
been a lot longer than a couple of months, but
could you share a little bit about your journey?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Ben dragged me along basically you drag me along.
I was like, here, you do this, you dragged.
Speaker 3: Me out of retirement. I just went, okay, I'm.
Speaker 4: Going yeah, I card of do more background kind of stuff.
Really don't tie. They're like the talks we do, because
we do some talks at the Haunted Museum and Spirit
Shopster Contrent shout out great, Yeah, so you do have
the actual talk and the presentation of it, whereas I
put together or the slide show and the battle with
the technology of trying to actually get it to work
because I'm trying to click the button and it's just
always as part of it where it just randomly stops
and it goes forward, and it's just.
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, on Black Place or there is I had
a lot of stuff that does happen there.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about that because Stake's
not too far from me either, So it's like I
was looking at the videos, some of the videos he
puts up on his Facebook page, and it does look
incredibly active. I was going to ask you if you
had found that for yourself, because you've You've done quite
a bit there now, haven't you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do a lot of talk from one of
our artifacts is there as well, which is from a
case that happened in Whales of an actual spirit attack,
full blown nasty spirit attack, and that's sat there as well.
We do the talk on stuff like that and how
to avoid these sorts of situations and stuff. Well, it's
a brilliant place to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It really that active because like say,
he's constantly putting up photos of things leaping off shelves
and falling over, and you know a lot of noises
and everything, and it does look like it's a very
active place.
Speaker 4: He knows about all the artifacts he's got there. He's
got case file for everyone. He doesn't just take in
any person's random bit of like, oh this might be haunted.
He only takes it in if they've got quite written evidence,
they've got photographic evidence or some sort of evidence to
back up the claims to go with the artifact, and
then he'll bring it to the museum and then they'll
do their own sort of research. They do a whole
lot that you don't see puts up online because they
do their own private stuff with it as well. Yeah,
so everything there, like I say, it's.
Speaker 3: All got background files on.
Speaker 4: So when stuff does start happening you kind of like,
yeah's happening. That's weird.
Speaker 3: As well. That tracks he was telling me about it.
I can't remember what it is. Tracks movement and it
tracks like human movement.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's got the different scores on. It's what one
square for the like the human movement, which is one
calor and then it's got like a different sensor to
pick up all the movement.
Speaker 3: It's weird. It really is weird.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, go check it out.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so do they do so from Essex? So I
do venture to Stoke con Trent quite a lot of
quite a few times a year. So is this somewhere
that can be books out for investigations or how how
does it work if anyone wait to go along, how
would they be able to do that?
Speaker 4: Get in touch with Craig message the actual page the
ghosts want the museum and Spirit sharp.
Speaker 3: Stoke on Trent booking on the day tours where you
will take you around and explain all the items, or
you can book on a night investigation with teams that
are there and that the dates or next year book
on one of our nights and come and spend them
out was.
Speaker 2: Amazing.
Speaker 1: So those dates are available to book already and where
would they where would people be able to find that
they're not available yet?
Speaker 3: We're after Christmas, but once Christmas is sorted, we held them.
We hold them the talks once a.
Speaker 4: Month eight months and.
Speaker 3: You can find those tickets on sale on their page
or on the other dimension page as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we share them absolutely, We'll share that onto our pages.
Thank you so thinking a little bit about a bit.
Speaker 3: So you just have to plug.
Speaker 1: Absolutely more than happy to.
Speaker 2: So where where else? What else.
Speaker 1: With your talks? Does that take you all over? What
else does that look like? What else do you get
up to and you're not doing talks at the Haunty Museum.
Speaker 4: We get invited to the arts event where people do
Brain's gone.
Speaker 3: Like you know, like the you know like it like the.
Speaker 4: Day events where people come in and they've got all
like the stalls around with the goods and whatnot.
Speaker 3: Get ba to the spiritual affairs I bring you okay, Yeah,
we're usually around with We did the Large Exchange, were
around with a lot of people. Are Andy Moore and
Rush are too brilliant friends of ours?
Speaker 4: Yeah, did the Darkness the Evening? Didn't we when they
started up?
Speaker 2: So lou are you enjoying your experience with the paranormal? Then,
given the fact that it was Ben's fault that you
got into it by accident.
Speaker 9: Not my fault, well, okay, you dragged me further what
you did because I was just like, oh, let's speak
of ghosts and stuff like that, and you're like, come
with me, I'll show you some dark stuff.
Speaker 6: Was like, hy he started the end of it, then,
didn't you And he was like, no, come to the
dark side.
Speaker 2: It's like, that's the boring stuff. This is interesting stuff.
Speaker 3: In this true beginning with one's wish that ended up
coming true.
Speaker 4: That's not my fault.
Speaker 3: That was just the UNI sat watching Supernatural, drinking wine
and wishing that she had her own Winchester. Unfortunately she
got the wish version who turned up on the back
of the motorbike.
Speaker 2: We got that you expand that SI stuff in the
leather jacket.
Speaker 3: It's apart from the looks in the car.
Speaker 1: I think what I'm finding the most interesting is how
we started this podcast. We've been saying, oh, I didn't
really have come out of retirement. I was forced to
do it, And how the story has.
Speaker 4: Changed interested in the past few years.
Speaker 3: Hasn't it. Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, because when I met you is when you had
you know, retired from the paranormal. And then you're like, oh,
I won't find going on a ghost one or something.
I was like, Okay, then we'll get booked on one,
and we did and it was wasn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah? It's fast from there.
Speaker 1: And I think the paranorm gets under your skin no
matter how far away I've taken breaks and come back,
no matter how far away you feel like you've moved
away from it in life, that it always pulls you
back in. And I find that with a lot of
people that within the paranormal, they take their breaks and
they come back. What do you why do you think
that is?
Speaker 3: I think it's the drownness of the unexplained. People want
to know answers. But it's I used to do and
still do a hell of a lot behind scenes, Like
we're not really seen active all the time because we don't.
Some of the cases we deal with we deal in private.
I will refuse to divulge details when someone comes to
me with a case to privately come into with the
case or help them out privately. And I have to
met I've made enemies over the years for that because
we don't charge. We don't charge any money for anyone
that's got problems. And I've really really peered a lot
of people off in the years with that.
Speaker 1: And why is it that.
Speaker 3: I will name and shame them because I don't really
care for mind body in soul and mind body in spirit.
They abandon me from their events because I refuse to
charge to help people when they need it.
Speaker 2: Okay, because I was going to say, in the spiritual world,
I mean, it's always a big debate over whether you
do or don't charge for certain things. But at the
same time, it's everybody's choice, isn't it. It's like, if
you don't want to charge, then then you feel like
you're offering a service. Then it's a service, isn't it.
And there's some, you know, some spiritual traditions that believe
you shouldn't charge at all because it is a service,
and you know, it's it's very individual. So to venue
for not charging is a bit unusual or do you
think it's because they don't want to upset other people
that do charge?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not fussed in the slightest most of
the time, well all the time, what we do is
we help people. And I never asked for it, and
I always got wound up about it, and bless her.
I helped a lady out years ago, called Elaine, miss
her madly because she's passed away now unfortunately. But I
think it was two years after it helped her, I
finally found that she'd slipped eighty quid cash into my jacket. Never, well,
we I've had stuff like I've had people donate books
to me and objects and stuff, and yeah, we don't
as I've never asked. It's it's what people do if
they want they feel comfortable. Well, we're always told and
you've always got told this by my lecturers and everyone
else that I learned off around the world and stuff,
was you should never make money out of people's misery
because it will turn into your misery.
Speaker 2: That's a fair, it's a fair, especially in that kind
of we're air. I don't know how to describe it.
It's not well, it's more of a calling in a way,
isn't it. But especially in that kind of subject matter,
there's the checks and balances are a little bit more extreme,
aren't they. If you because use your intention because there's
a lot of trouble, isn't it sometimes? So it's like
if you're going in with an intention not to gain,
then you're the energy pattern you're holding is different. So yeah,
if that makes sense, I'm being a bit addled today.
But it's like normally more eloquent.
Speaker 3: A knowledge beyond comparison of stuff that you can do too.
But it's weird saying like old rituals on how to
bend your fate and bend your fortune, bend people's minds
and all this sort of stuff, but you never use
it because it's considered break and breaking what's known as
breaking the balance. Having the knowledge is fine, using it
during an advantage is completely notly shunned on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I suppose there's always that price that needs
to be paid when things like that happen as well.
There is always a price of hoy when you work
in that kind of in that kind of way, whether
it's you know, for your own personal gain or for
someone else's personal gain. But that price dependence is dependent
on what you're asking for, isn't it really, or what
your intention is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're taught that. Well. They used two examples of
people that have used the information and have used it
for their own benefit and found the consequences and all
of them everyone knows is Alista Crowley.
Speaker 1: Oh for those that don't please share.
Speaker 3: Alistair Crowley was personal beliefs. Again, not wishing to offend anyone. Blah.
The guy got certain information from a religious order called
the Golden Dawn, used it to his own personal gain
and then eventually it went insane and ended up dying
and screaming that they were coming for him as he died.
Speaker 2: He did go a little bit off the rails, didn't he?
Throughout his life? He started off pretty good, but then
went really off the rails. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Again. And then the other one was the gentleman I
can never remember his name was in charge who created
the Church of.
Speaker 2: Satanism, Anton Levy.
Speaker 10: That yeah, saying towards the end, because again he took
the idea and towards the end of it, once he
realized that he got quite a good following that a lot,
he started to make it personal.
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know so much about his history, to
be fair, but I have to look I'll have to
look it up. So he sort of went off the
rails a bit at the end as well, because.
Speaker 3: His last words were, oh my god, what have I done?
Speaker 2: Really? Yeah, well we go it's like, oh crap, I've just.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just sitting with that oh my god sentence
in there? In what that you know? I suppose if
you're acceptant of the of Satan of the devil, then
you are acceptant of the when you think of two
ends of the two sides of the coin, isn't it
you're accepted with one, you're accepted the other. But yeah, okay,
it's quite interesting. So do you have a story that's
similar to that, not lived experience, of course, but an
example without giving names, where you've seen that in real time.
Speaker 3: I've done it. I'm living proof. I ended up using
I found a certain path to go down with my
study in it ended up leading me in two more
darker stuff, should we say, to a point where I
nearly lost absolutely everything, concluded my life life. Luckily some
friends at the time, I should help you back. And yeah,
I'm living proof of what can happen if you start
using it, trying to use it personal game.
Speaker 2: So you able to with you having studied the occult
mat I think I remember a few years ago you
talked I used to comderate, embrace the dark paranormal And
you were on one of the moderators and you mentioned
using schigils and things for the work that you were
doing to help people. Are you do you find that
using things like that in that manner is effective and
sort of like and like you say, the balance is
there if you do or do you not do anything
like that anymore? You just sort of altered.
Speaker 3: You still do that now into this day. It's just
remembering there's an equal balance for everything. Anything that is
taken or given must be balanced out.
Speaker 2: That's a very common what's the word, the very common
understanding amongst a lot of It's like the I don't
like using the words charman because everybody gets really upset
about it. But the shamanic oriented people are very big
on the balancing and the intention and using things in
a certain manner and being aware that there's always the
weights and checks, where so the responsibility on the practitioner
is actually heavier than it would be for sort of
like Joe blogs on the street. It's like, with regards
to what action you take and what you choose to
take as an action, do you find it a little
bit conflicting? Sometimes where you sort of think I could
do this, but I'm not sure what the consequences will be,
So I don't know whether to do it or not,
or do you.
Speaker 3: Sometimes you can find yourself in a loop with a
lot of the paranormal esoteric stuff. When you're helping someone out,
you can find that you have got to do certain
things for certain things to happen, and it's walking a minefield.
Sometimes it really can't be. You have to every single
ancient religion going, so you're looking at like Hinduism, Egyptian, Sumerian,
Native American beliefs, all the old tribal beliefs all have
that sameurve you have to respect. You have to have
respect of what you're taking. Respect it because something later
on is going to pay, like basically like karma incense.
Explain it better, like what sorry? Like karma?
Speaker 2: Oh god?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose. It's sort of like it's fair enough though,
isn't it. It's a kind of reciprocity. It's like, you know,
if you just go in and use things, it's sort
of like those things get a bit annoyed after a while,
I should imagine in you know, but whereas if you're
like I acknowledge you in your own right, and I'm
asking for your help and using these you know, tools
or whatever to channel your energy. But I do appreciate
it or I recognize it. It's it's a different like
you say, it's a different mode of being, isn't it.
But it is a fine line between how use and
what's the weird not co creation, but sort of like.
Speaker 3: What's theme o existence?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, because it's I got told off once
because I got told to ask angels for help. And
now I was a bit a bit like you with
the weird demon. I was never quite sure what like
we'd angel represented, but I said one day, oh yeah,
I'm using sort of archangel microprotection. I got told off
using the weird use. So I was just like I
am working with or he is helping, or that energy
is helping me, rather than using, because I got told
off for that specific word. Because it's not using if
you're if you're asking, and it's it's agreeing to work
with you. It's a different relationship you have with that energy,
whatever it's original form is. But it is a very
slippery mental slope. Like say, words are tricky, So it's
sort of like you always has to be so careful
about the words you're using so that your mind doesn't
accidentally switch into the opposite. It is like you say,
it's a minefield, it is mindfield.
Speaker 3: It is a bit. So some people do get really
stupid with picking up on different words. They're a bit.
Speaker 4: As long as you know within yourself what you are meaning,
you are wanting. Yeah, the way you express it doesn't
really matter. It's just other people can be said dantic
because they like to think that they know more, and
they like to show up that they know more, and
they like they like to think they've got more power
because they know more.
Speaker 3: And yeah, she put it polite way, because I was not.
I don't do the whole snow king. I'd say it
as it is, and I get told off all the time.
Speaker 1: With that in mind, how I'm just thinking a little
bit about when you're talking about work, how how how
do you balance the two between then the construction worker
and ben who I don't want to give you a
title that you haven't got up obviously, my my understanding
of your understanding is within demonology. So how does that balance?
What does that look like? And and and as well
for Lou how's your relationship with that kind of narrative?
How how has that developed over time? Two questions? Sorry, bombardment, Well, I.
Speaker 3: Can tell you what it looks like. The construction worker
Ben and the like cartologists Ben get the piss taken
out of him no matter what he's doing.
Speaker 2: Okay, point Actually you get bands on both ends, don't you. Really?
Speaker 3: You have to to maintain its still as it is.
You have to to maintain your mental stability. I work
in I work inside the warehouse with building an electrical transformers,
and there's some old boys there, and I mean proper
old boys there only believe one thing and that's it.
And they will give me some absolute mouthfuls of abuse
in one moment. Yet in the next moment they will
come up to me and go, seriously, though, I've got
a question I want to ask.
Speaker 11: You get the balance of two words of like, this
bloke's just been ripping the hell out of you for
believing in this stuff, Yet twenty seconds later he's asking
you his own private opinion of can you help me
with this?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: That's why they say, isn't it about the paranormal? It's
like everybody doesn't believe in the paranormal. But everyone's got
a ghost story.
Speaker 3: There's a young lad at work lesson at the minute.
He's just moving into a new house and we're taking
the mickey out of going about today, taking the mickey
out of it and all this life. It's like, oh yeah,
I keep hearing noises and stuff like that and laughing.
I'm like, oh yeah, it's it's the ghosts of the
wood life running up the building and stuff like that.
And he was fine, laughing away. And then when he
walked away, he ca walked to me and he went, seriously,
then I need to ask you a question. I literally
put my beer can down on the window and he
blew across the window shield then got kicked off. Do
I need to do? I need to call a priest
or something? Do I needs? Like? I don't know what
started for you?
Speaker 7: Because you really tell a lot of people, do you.
Speaker 3: I get found out one of the lads that work
when I first started. Just come up to when you're
bed Winfield. I've seen your.
Speaker 4: Tvable, especially you know when you same jump, well, your
best disguise is your glasses. That's just funny. Yeah, because
someone recog I'm talking to you at comic com aren't
they here in Stoke.
Speaker 3: To show you how fun it can be, because if
you watch most I'm not saying I was about say
Most Haunted, but if you've ever watched like Help my
House is Haunted, stuff like that. If you notice on
the seasons I was in, I wore the exact same clothes.
Just wind people up because it doesn't earn more. Yeah,
I owned more clothes. I did it to wind my mom.
So just in case anyone's watching this and you see
me on the yes, it's the same jumper. I do
it to wind my mom because she screams at me
every time saying, you've got more clothes, stop wearing the
same bloody jumper. Yeah. This this woman, bless her. She
was chatting away to me about the show and stuff
like that, and she was quoting all this demon largely
stuff with me that this off the Yeah, this demolarge
said off the show. In that line, she's quoting me.
And we didn't quite we didn't really say that. Oh no, no, no,
we said this. She said this, And mind you, I've
got my glasses on and a bit. I didn't think
I've not gone as a jumper. And she went on
for a while, and everyone around me is just peeing,
like Lou was in stitches at the side, like Craig
and a fewelers were just paying themself, and you could
see me getting wound up. And literally, I think I
went on for about ten minutes to dinner and I
just took the glasses off and went, it's me. I
know what, I bloody said.
Speaker 2: What did Clark Kent?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Did she admit it? Then? Did she say, oh, no, no,
you're just joking or did she actually realize it was
you want to take your glasses off?
Speaker 3: It's registered. It was me, didn't you? And then she
just kind of walked off. Yeah, very So.
Speaker 2: You haven't got Dean Winchester, like Carry says, you've got
Clark Kent instead. Then, but sort of like Clark Kent's like,
oh the brother.
Speaker 3: I kind of wish I had the build of Clark Kent,
but I haven't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel.
Speaker 3: Like I need to get a Superman costume, but with
a letter D in the middle. But people are just
going to register as something completely different.
Speaker 1: It might be open to interpretation, but that's okay, Air
of mystery. Here's the man of Mystery. They'd be like
Oh it's you. Is that I am?
Speaker 4: So you don't look like you know, people expect a demonologists,
do you know?
Speaker 3: I don't wear the the gothic stuff to let you
in on on a night. A fun thing that happened
was this gentleman that we recently spoke to his demon
just turned up to an event and he's got black boots.
Black boots on in fact, scratch that you go to.
People that are watching this and your ladies, yourself were
all from the same generation. Can any of you remember hello? Yeah,
he basically turned up looking like Hefflick.
Speaker 2: Really with the big lung trench coat in the.
Speaker 4: It might I'm not sure if that was fancy dress
on how he actually.
Speaker 3: Dressed, but yeah, he turned up and started saying that
it's a demonarges honest lot. And then there's me there
in a pairy Jeens baggy shirt that says demon Hunter
on it because one of the centigraphics and our designs
like this demon Hunter one for me. Blessed that lou
brought me and it was just am there shirt, I'm
there in a audio that lot, and he just did
not expect me to be the professional one. And it's
just like I'm not professional, it's just my title.
Speaker 1: But I think that's a good example of not judging
a book by its cover, in the fact that sometimes
those that we think have the knowledge because they present
themselves as such, might not necessarily have. And what we
think is typical for a you know, an ideology or
you know, an idea. I can't think of another way
of putting it without kind of minimizing it in any way.
But we have this perception of what that should look like,
and I think there, you know, when we talk a
little bit, I'll say it most haunted when we think
about demonology and how that is presented, it very is
black clothes and big silver jewelry and things like that.
So I think again going back to what the media
is responsible for and the kind of concept misconceptions that
are now drip fed to the people that are coming
into the world. Now there's far more people researching the
paranormal than there was ten years ago. Fifteen years ago,
before we were the weirdos, not a lot of people
did it, and now it's everyone is.
Speaker 3: I have to admit I found it with like some
of the YouTubers, Like recently, I was with a group
called overnights we did heal fire caves. It was brilliant
and to be fair, they had the best reaction to
me ever turning up because and honestly, go watch it.
There are a decent bunch of lads. But it was
the fact that they turn up and the first thing
they see is me leaning with my hoodie on, with
my ice hockey jersey at the side, leaning on my bike,
just like all right, lads, and when if you turned
up on anything else, we would have asked for our
money back. The fact that you turned up on a motorbike. Aslogist,
everyone expects you to look like the Exorcist guy turned
up a briefcase and happened. No, I'll just rock up
as it is.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing with a lot of the occults throughout
history is it's always been hidden, isn't it. It's like
that the people that were the most powerful in your
cult circles actually never showed it. It's just like, so
you know that a sign of power usually is the
fact that you don't wield it openly ironically, So it's like,
so in a weird kind of way, you're actually sort of.
Speaker 3: You know, he's passed. And if any of my alot
watched this. Screw you. I can say what I want.
For example, the Freemasons in the UK for ages, no
one actually knew who was in charge of, and it
was Prince Philip. The last person you expect to be
in charge of was Prince Philip in chargeable to his death,
and you generally want to think about it with the
way he acted because he just didn't care.
Speaker 2: No, no, the Freemotions are very good at that, the
bait and switch thing. Like you say, the real power
is usual really him plain sight but hidden at the
same time.
Speaker 3: People, the thest people you expect are the ones that
are in them sort of circles.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's quite surprising. It's like it's the
nature of the occult though, isn't it in a weird
kind of way. It's sort of like it's there and
it's in front of you, but you can't always see it.
Speaker 12: So I think I think for anyone that lives in cities,
if you want to go and you can find I
know where you can find these in Derby, but I'm
not really looked in other cities.
Speaker 3: But if you're ever knocking around any of the church buildings,
stuff like that or the big fancy buildings that have
been built if you want to see if they were
actually built or funded by the Freemasons. If you look
towards the entrance, you will see basically with a line
across the top and three dashes coming down inside, and
that's mark the Freemason buildings.
Speaker 1: Okay, so like a TP yeah, that kind of shape.
Speaker 3: Okay, across the top, and they'll be on bridges and
stuff like that, stuff that's been made violence and people
just don't notice them.
Speaker 1: Interesting. I think that would be really I think if
anyone does come across that out, if they have any
in their local historical buildings, it'd be great to see something.
Send them in, be good to see. If we can.
Speaker 3: I will take some of the photos next time in Derby.
I'll send them over to you and I'll take the
photographs of them. And a lot of the places are
like for people to meet and just talk.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you. We've come to the end of a show,
and I think that's a really good place to kind
of but no, absolutely not. It's been really nice getting
to know you where you are now, and obviously getting
to know Lou and Lou's journey as well, it's been
amazing to speak with you. What we love to do
at the end of the show is kind of talk
about where everyone can find anything you're doing, So please
feel free to yeah to let us know where can
people find you and what if you are coming up, find.
Speaker 3: Us on the Other Dimension page. We've not done a
lot of shows recently because we've got a lot going on,
but we're still posting on you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was taking a bit slow at the moment.
We've just had quite a bit of a busy and
busys so yeah, slowing it down a little bit, but
we're still putting bits and somewhere we're just kind of
have a breather, regather ourselves, think about what we're actually
doing next. Yeah, just pop on the Other Dimension.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find us the earlier Other dimension. Like
I said, later on next year, early next year, you
can find us at Stoke doing the talks and hopefully
next year I'll be setting up lessons as well, teaching
themnology from there. And you can find us with hord
Exchange because they do events as well. You find them
on Facebook really or if you generally have any questions,
just get in touch with us at the page. One
of us is always knocked about.
Speaker 2: One of you is more savvy than the other. Remember that.
Speaker 3: On tech Savvy that when I text on there, I
put in brackets my name so they realize it's me
they're talking to. That's how tech savvy I am on
the end of it. Yeah, I don't. I'm a bit everything.
I'll right, I'll get a dosh dosh. Ben.
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much for joining us this evening,
and we will look forward to hopefully next year if
you've got some time, it'd be great to have you
back on.
Speaker 3: See what you guys want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, see what Ben and Lose World looks like. Then
that's fantastic. So we're going to say thank you for
everyone that's joined us this evening. Thank you for watching.
We have some more shows that are coming up in
two weeks time. We have a defense Attorney and we
also have Graham as well, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a Dower.
Speaker 1: And Geo Munson, two complete different subjects, so one other,
this girls the other. But yeah, it'd be great for
us to see.
Speaker 6: You there as well.
Speaker 1: So for now we're going to say good night, thank
you for joining us. Back the
Speaker 3: Fact