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But before you set 11 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:34.560 foot out the dorm, set foot in the ultimate lightweight, 12 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:38.320 superpackable travel shoes from Alberts. Find your perfect pair at 13 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:41.159 albirds dot com. That's a l L B I r 14 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:42.920 ds dot com lot. 15 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:56.479 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 16 00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:59.600 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 17 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:07.280 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker DTK every week, 18 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:11.280 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 19 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:15.319 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 20 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:31.000 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening at a high 21 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:35.319 school dance in nineteen sixty four, seventeen year old Sondra 22 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:39.760 London met a bright, handsome, well mannered Catholic boy, eighteen 23 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.120 year old Gerald John Schaeffer. They hung out all the 24 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:45.920 time and soon fell in love, but after a year, 25 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.519 as young lovers will, they went their separate ways. She 26 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:54.280 thought she'd never see him again. Then in nineteen seventy 27 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:59.239 two came the screaming headlines six dead twenty eight maybe, 28 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:03.480 and the foolish stories about the smiling cop turned sadistic 29 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:08.080 killer and corpse loving fiend, hoarding mementos of his mutilated 30 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:12.919 victims and writing it all up in feverish prose. Absolutely unbelievable. 31 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:17.280 She was appalled that crimes like this could be committed 32 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:21.479 by anyone, much less someone she had known intimately. Remember, 33 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.280 those were the days before the term serial killer existed, 34 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:27.479 before Ted Mundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffrey Dahmer so 35 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:31.759 irreqroavely showed us what it meant. In those days, Shaeffer's 36 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:35.280 type of crime was not only unnamed, it was unheard of. 37 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:38.599 Between March and July of nineteen eighty nine, Shaffer sent 38 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:41.439 her the stories included in two sections of killer Fiction, 39 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:46.319 Whore's and Stark Stories. Selections from the stories and drawings 40 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.800 used as evidence in his nineteen seventy three murder trial 41 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:54.639 are included in the section actual Fantasies. A limited edition 42 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:57.560 of the volume comprising these three sections was copyright and 43 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:02.240 published in June of nineteen eighty nine. I'm not writing nonfiction, 44 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:06.919 explained the literary Madman. Its killer fiction, a new genre 45 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.520 where the writer takes violence as an artistic medium in 46 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:14.080 instead of glorifying it, makes the reader see it as 47 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.479 the cruel and horrid act it is in reality. I 48 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.120 don't represent violence as good. 49 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.560 Or bad, merely as it is. I let the reader 50 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.599 conclude that violence is a socially negative force, not to 51 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:33.120 be reveled in. Thus he expounded his grim postmodern aesthetic. 52 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:37.680 The truth about his crimes did not matter to her 53 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:39.439 as much as the chance to take a look into 54 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:43.120 his deranged mind. Somehow she managed to overcome her revulsion 55 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:47.840 to his sexually violent obsessions enough to continue documenting them. 56 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:51.879 His sexism is racism, his fury at every living being 57 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:55.960 in the world, including himself, His boast of rape, sodomy, murder, 58 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:59.879 even necrophilia. These she managed to tolerate by reminding her 59 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.560 self that this was important data, and so she decided 60 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:06.240 to set aside her own personal distaste for the ugliness 61 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:09.520 of the work and focus on presenting it in all 62 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.960 its twisted glory and leave it to the audience to 63 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:16.279 tell her what it was. The book that we're featuring 64 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:20.519 this evening is Killer Fiction Stories That Convicted the ex 65 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:23.759 cop of murder, with my special guest journalist and author, 66 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.360 Sandra London. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 67 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.600 much for agreeing to this interview. Sondra London. 68 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.720 Hi, how are you doing, Dan, I'm very good. 69 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:38.759 Thank you very much for joining us today to talk 70 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:42.800 about this incredible true crime classic killer fiction. 71 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:45.240 Well, I'm honored. 72 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:48.519 Now, well, thank you. I'm honored to have you on 73 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:54.720 the program once again. Let's talk about nineteen sixty four, 74 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.439 as we did in the introduction. You were seventeen years old. 75 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:00.399 Tell us just a little bit before we get into 76 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:06.120 this examination of what Gerald Schaeffer wrote and sent you 77 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:10.240 and wanted to have out there for everyone to read. 78 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:13.639 Tell us how it all started in nineteen sixty four. 79 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:15.199 Tell us a little bit about this college. 80 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:20.639 Kay. First, I had to correct It's Gerard. It's always Gerard. 81 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:24.160 It's not Gerald in that most people are familiar with 82 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:27.800 the word Gerald, so they usually call him Gerald because 83 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:32.279 they heard it before. But it's Geord. So anyway, there 84 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:35.160 I was. I went to US Tranahan High School in 85 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:39.519 Fort Lauderdale, and I was had a dance at my 86 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:44.600 school and when I saw this handsome young boy that 87 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:48.600 I had never seen before. And so the reason I 88 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:51.199 didn't see him is because he went to the Catholic 89 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:58.199 school in town. And he we met literally at the 90 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.480 punch bowl. We both had days, but somehow or another 91 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.000 we wound up chatting over the punch bowl and told 92 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:13.079 him my name, and so he went through the Fort 93 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:18.759 Lauderdale phone book and looked up everyone by that last 94 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:21.959 name and called them to see if he could find 95 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:27.480 me that way. And he did find me, and I 96 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:30.600 thought it was kind of flattering, you know, and cute, 97 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:34.720 you know at the time. You know, it's only after 98 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:39.360 years and years of years of retrospection that I put 99 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:43.040 a different kind of different color on the whole procedure. 100 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:50.480 Now, you had this short relationship with him, What was 101 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.680 it about this relationship that it why did it end? 102 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:58.639 And then tell us what happened afterwards in terms of 103 00:06:58.680 --> 00:06:59.959 your writing career. 104 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:05.120 Okay, well it was one year from beginning to end, 105 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:13.879 and why didn't we break up? I was just a kid, now, look, 106 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.000 I was a kid. Number one, number two. Nobody ever 107 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:22.959 heard a serial killers, and if they had them, they 108 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:27.240 sure didn't reach the level of awareness that we are 109 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:35.160 accustomed to today. And another thing is when people say stuff, 110 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:39.279 you don't really take it the hard. You don't believely 111 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:44.720 think oh yeah, oh my god. You know. Uh, people 112 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:47.920 just say stuff and you're like, uh huh, you know 113 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:55.000 so uh. We had a u a regular love affair. 114 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.519 And I gotta say this right off because everybody always 115 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:05.279 thinks that know what they're talking about, and they're wrong. 116 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:10.199 I had sex with John and it was as plain 117 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:17.079 vanilla as you can imagine. There was nothing funny about 118 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:24.920 having sex with John Schaeffer. And I don't. I know, 119 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:29.399 it's hard to believe. We learned these theorems, and we 120 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:35.639 learned these overall generalities when we studied the textbooks, and 121 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:40.960 then to me, all that learning gets away, It gets 122 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:44.120 in the way and blocks the case that's standing right 123 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:49.639 before you. So that's one thing I have learned to 124 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:55.840 strive for. I studied the literature, but I tried very 125 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:58.039 hard to set it aside when it comes to the 126 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.039 case before me and allow it to be what it is. 127 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.919 So there you go. John was an outdoorsman. He liked 128 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.480 to go fishing, hunting, and he had a boat. He 129 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:12.320 liked to go out on the boat. His family was 130 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:17.639 very respectable. They belonged to the yacht club and the 131 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:22.120 country club. And he had one girlfriend before me for 132 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:26.440 five years since she was a debutante, so he was 133 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:32.159 her debutante escort at all the high society functions in town. 134 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.360 So that was the boy I knew. He liked to 135 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:42.759 play golf. He took me out shooting and taught me 136 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:47.000 how to handle a weapon. He took me out on 137 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:53.240 the boat into the golf stream. We got stranded on 138 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:56.679 a sidebar once and didn't get home until four and 139 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:02.879 m in the morning, and appearance rather freaked out, But 140 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:08.320 in general it was just a teenage dating, going to 141 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:13.519 dances of football games and what like that. Toward the 142 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:20.720 end he became a drag. He was upset and instead 143 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.840 of going out and having fun, it would be like 144 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:29.159 a like always. He's a psychotherapist or something, and he 145 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:33.480 wanted to talk about his problems, so much. And the 146 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.919 picture that remains in my mind is just this one 147 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:42.039 vignette that we used to go out in his whole car. 148 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:44.440 We had a blanket, We go out on the beach 149 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:50.080 and sex and stuff. So in this vignette that that 150 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:54.759 presaged the end of this, we're sitting out on the beach, 151 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:58.919 but we've got the blanket over our shoulders and we're 152 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:03.240 huddled under it like two little lost children and or something, 153 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:09.919 and he's just crying, well, he's crying and upset because 154 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:18.559 he is being pestered by unwanted, intrusive thoughts of killing women. 155 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:25.639 And he wants to kill women. And I don't know 156 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.960 he's telling this to me because some of his closest companion. 157 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.720 But I want you to understand that I didn't have 158 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:39.879 I'm not in any position to do anything that the 159 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:46.360 casual armchair observer might think I should have done. Years later, 160 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:53.000 I consulted with the homicide chief and the chief of 161 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:57.039 detectives there, and Fort Lauderdale told him that John I 162 00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.159 told me he wanted to kill women, and I said 163 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.480 a lot of people they accused me of failing to 164 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:08.080 call the cops on him, and they reassured me that 165 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:13.159 no such thing was possible. Cops do not respond to 166 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:17.600 reports as someone saying they want to kill. Cops only 167 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:22.240 respond when the crime has been committed. And if I 168 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:25.360 were to call the cops on him, they would not 169 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:30.120 take a report. But in fact, it didn't dawn on 170 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:32.919 me to call the cops on him because I didn't 171 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:37.600 think he was a serial killer. I just thought he 172 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:41.000 was my boyfriend who was supposed to take me out 173 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.519 and show me a good time, and he was a drag. 174 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:45.279 Pretty much. 175 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.159 Now, after this nineteen sixty four, we're into nineteen sixty five, 176 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.679 and you don't hear anything more about You thought you'd 177 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.480 never see him again. You don't hear anything else from 178 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:04.039 Gerard for till nineteen seventy two, and you see the 179 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.919 screaming headlines. But in the interim, you become a writer. 180 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:09.919 Tell us what kind of writer you are, and tell 181 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.480 us a little bit about that writing career, and then 182 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:18.279 what happens in nineteen seventy two, what's the headline you read? 183 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:21.919 And then tell us a little bit about that reaction 184 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:22.200 to that. 185 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.759 Okay, as far as me writing, it started in third 186 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.600 grade when they picked me out for a special class 187 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:31.879 in creative writing and there was only five of us 188 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:34.759 in the school. May take us in there and let 189 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:40.519 us create a write. My forte is poetry, and I 190 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:45.000 will edited my high school literary magazine. And then when 191 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.360 I went to college and got a degree in literature, 192 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:56.639 our graduation ceremony consisted of me presenting a nine page 193 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:01.240 poem I had written about our time sixty eight, which 194 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.679 was a pretty interesting time. And anyway, there was that. 195 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:09.559 After that, I went on mostly interested in being a 196 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:14.720 singer and bands stuff like that, continue to write poetry 197 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.320 to earn a living. I was working for a terns 198 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:27.519 and doing legal research and writing, and eventually that phase 199 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:36.000 drifted into technical writing along the way. So that was 200 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:40.320 the kind of background I had. I had been in singing, 201 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.840 show business and everything. And I got tired of hearing 202 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:51.320 this refrain which goes, there's no pay, but it's great exposure. 203 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.440 I don't know if any any of us have ever 204 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.919 heard that one, even oh yeah, but I spore to god, 205 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:00.799 I was never gonna you know, I'm like scool Era, 206 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:04.000 you know, I'm never going to hear that again, you know. 207 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:10.519 And so I set off toward writing. And that occurred 208 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.879 in nineteen eighty nine when I decided to enter true crime. 209 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.960 As far as writing, I'd been doing legal write. Everything 210 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.559 is under a structure called work for hire, which means 211 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.399 you don't put your name on it, they pay you 212 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.799 to write something for them. And that was worked for hire. 213 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.440 So come eighty nine then I was like, oh, okay. 214 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:39.120 There was a crazy little thing called Reaganomics. And for 215 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.440 a whole year I wasn't able to get the contracts 216 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.399 that I'd always gotten. Every time I pitched a contract 217 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.440 to a client, I got it. And all of a sudden, 218 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:50.960 this year I couldn't do anything right, and I was like, 219 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:56.080 what it didn't dawn on me. It was the economy. 220 00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:02.320 I thought it was me. So by early eighty nine, 221 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:06.279 I said, look at this. They killed Ted Bundy and 222 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:11.759 everybody was going crazy. Bundy, Bundy, Bundy and serial killer, 223 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.960 serial killer, serial killers. It was in everywhere you looked 224 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:18.600 her And I said, well, what is this? And I 225 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.440 read that book by Anne Ruled the Stranger beside me 226 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:24.480 and I said, shucks. I said, I can write better 227 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:28.039 than that. And I said, plus, she barely knew that guy. 228 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.559 I knew a serial killer a lot more than that. 229 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:34.159 And that was the thought process that led me to 230 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:39.600 contact Drord John Shaffer in prison on February seventh, nineteen 231 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:43.120 eighty nine. And so that was the starting gun. 232 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:49.200 What did you think when you in nineteen seventy two 233 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:54.039 and seventy three, when Gerard's trial was being conducted. What 234 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:58.039 did you think at the time? Okay, fast forward, what 235 00:16:58.080 --> 00:16:58.600 do you think of the. 236 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:03.279 Time stumble upon that? Myself, my sister and my mother 237 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:13.039 hurled it at me eccusingly in a way. This you know, 238 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:17.279 this is what happened to that boyfriend the years. I 239 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:20.200 don't know. 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We're just gonna circle up here a while 264 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:04.599 and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's just 265 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.240 these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest you 266 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.720 sit back, keep your trade table up right, and start 267 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:10.279 getting lucky. 268 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.960 Pay for free at Lucky landslides dot com. Are you 269 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.720 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 270 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.359 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 271 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:27.039 They right, they threw it at me. They threw it 272 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:31.599 in my face. I don't know I read it. I 273 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:37.160 never heard of anything like that. I was not a 274 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.920 true crime lover. I never will watch the Whodunnits on TV. 275 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.000 I never took interest in murder mysteries. I didn't care 276 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:51.839 anything about crime really. I loved horses and poetry and music. 277 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:57.640 Those were my passions. And of course I lived Fort 278 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:00.200 Lauderdale at the beach, so there was quite a lot 279 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:04.160 of beach funny in me. And Uh then I went 280 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:09.680 to a new College of Florida's uh honor College's called 281 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:13.920 an experiment in education back at the time, and uh 282 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.559 there was no set curriculum and there was no grades. 283 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.920 You just had to jump in there and really do 284 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.319 or they it was pass or fail. So there was 285 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:28.200 one hundred narc class and only thirty three finally graduated 286 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:34.599 out of that one hundred students. So at that process 287 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:42.039 I learned to structure my own studies and theories like 288 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.000 go from the particular to the general, go from the 289 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.599 general to the particular. So when I set out to 290 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:52.079 do Shaeffer, I said, this is a serial killer, so 291 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:54.839 I need to read all the literature on serial killers. 292 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:00.400 I need to consult the experts, and I need to 293 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.720 get uh study some more serial killers who I know 294 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:09.200 how to compare. And so I contacted the FBI and 295 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:12.000 I said, I'm gonna study this serial killer and I 296 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:18.400 wanted some help, and they referred me to Roy hazel Wood, 297 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:24.680 who became my personal mentor. And Roy hazel Wood was 298 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.079 so good to me over the years. They had these 299 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:34.559 white papers that they issued to FBI agents, and he 300 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:36.599 sent me the list of them. He said, any of 301 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:40.000 them you want, let me offen them to you. And 302 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.200 I had his home number to call him consult him, 303 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.680 and he come I needed to, and he visited me 304 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:49.240 in my home. He had me as a special guest 305 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:53.960 at seminars and backstage at a a murder trial. He 306 00:20:54.200 --> 00:21:00.359 uh had me a Meetneer and so it that was 307 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:04.880 a big influence over the way I went about this. 308 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.319 And I'm gonna say, I'm going to boil it down. 309 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.160 Of course, there's the longest story in the world, so 310 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:15.599 I'm trying to only touch the real plot points. The 311 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.720 first foremost thing he told me is exactly what they 312 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:24.799 told creeson the movie, which was, don't ever tell him 313 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:29.960 anything personal because he'll find a way to use it 314 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:38.920 against you. And the second principle, do not respond emotionally 315 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:43.559 to anything he says, because he is going to be 316 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.599 trying to get a reaction out of you. And you 317 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:55.200 must keep a dead pan demeanor. And those two things 318 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:58.839 guided me. And the part about the dead pan demeanor, 319 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:05.400 that's what really drove Schaeffer into the frenzy that became 320 00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:11.319 Killer Fiction, because he kept trying to shock me and 321 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:17.200 discussed me as fault me with this stuff he was writing. 322 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:24.759 It was written at me, and so I held to 323 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:29.319 that do not respond. And so there you go. That's 324 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.400 the biggest dynamic of that whole thing right there in 325 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:33.119 a nutshell. 326 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.400 What were the what was this opening introduction to him 327 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:44.920 A reintroduction to Gerard saying, listen, you remember me? What 328 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.039 were some of the conditions that he agreed to that 329 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:53.279 he wanted as part of the agreement between YouTube? Tell 330 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:56.400 us a little bit about what he expected, what he 331 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:57.200 wanted from you. 332 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:03.440 I agree, he and narcissistic personality as he is. I mean, 333 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:09.240 he would say anything more. But he he couldn't resist 334 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:12.039 me no matter what. You know. I was the one 335 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:17.319 that had to power over him, and I I wrote 336 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:21.680 to him and I said, uh, hi, ah remember me? 337 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.000 And I said, uh, become a writer and would like 338 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.799 to do a collaborate in a book about your life 339 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:32.000 and crimes. And he responded back, how could I not 340 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:36.000 remember you? My love for you burned for like a 341 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:44.440 cold blue flame and it still burns. So I'm like, mm, well, 342 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.759 I'm not in love with you. So anyway, he wanted 343 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.880 to do a book or what you know, And yeah, 344 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:54.960 he had a lot of grandiose ideas and the book 345 00:23:55.160 --> 00:24:00.400 was a matter of him trying to manipulate me and 346 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:08.119 me manipulating him. Because he wanted the gratification of the 347 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:17.519 sexual attention, and I wanted a story. And the story 348 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:21.599 I wanted was a story of guilt, and I want 349 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:23.880 to know what you did and why you did it. 350 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:30.720 And so I played to his vanity. We right, Oh, 351 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:35.039 you're such a good writer, John. But then I would 352 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.039 challenge him. I say, you know what, your characters are 353 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.920 a lot of like they're kind of wooden, really stick figures. 354 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.200 And I said, why don't you try to bring out 355 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:53.880 something more real and a character? Oh my god. So 356 00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:59.480 he writes to death real, death Row and made in Virginia, 357 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.359 and he said, his name is Crystal Beaver's and he's 358 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:10.039 a sixteen year old prom queen who is organization called 359 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:14.039 Justice Now, and that means all you people on death 360 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:17.880 row need to go ahead and get executed quickly. And 361 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.599 so he started writing to these death row inmates in 362 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:29.279 that tone, very sexy, flirtatious and challenging. And he caught 363 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:33.599 that whole death row in Virginia in an uproar until 364 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.599 it became a behavior issue. And then the monitor of 365 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.759 death Row, Joe O'Dell wrote to me and said, all right, 366 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.559 Crystal Beavers, what do you think you're doing. And I 367 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:46.640 wrote back to him and I'm like, you know what, 368 00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:50.839 there is no Crystal Beavers. It's gerorge On Shaeffer and 369 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.599 you know so forth. Well, it turns out joe'dell had 370 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.240 been down there in prison with gerarge On Shaeffer in 371 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:04.160 Florida Day Prison previously. He knew him, he knew him, 372 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:09.160 he'd been in prison with him, and he knew some 373 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:14.759 of these other characters that were trying to get me 374 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:16.759 to pay attention to them. I don't know how to 375 00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:22.240 put it, but so Odell that became a whole other 376 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:28.279 thing with him Shaeffer trying to get them all worked 377 00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:30.640 up in a frenzy. And Shaeffer's like, oh, is that 378 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:31.799 real enough for you? 379 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:41.440 When you talk about him adding realistic details to his stories. 380 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.200 What was the premise of this? Again it's called killer fiction? 381 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:51.839 What was his What did he decide that would be? 382 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:54.799 What were the rules of this killer fiction? What was 383 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:56.680 the purpose of this killer fiction? 384 00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.720 Well, I was, I guess determined by me as the 385 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.160 how it started was. I asked him, maybe it was 386 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.079 that first letter, If not, maybe the third letter or 387 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:12.599 fourth letter. Do you still write those stories? You know 388 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:16.640 that his case was based on for the new listener, 389 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:21.359 I will just quickly recap when he was arrested, his 390 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:25.559 mother's house was rated, and there was a stack of 391 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:30.440 manuscripts in a closet that had been John's closet when 392 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.480 he was in high school and lived there. They would 393 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.519 put seized and putting evidence, and those are the writings 394 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:43.160 that convicted him of murder. Okay. Now you would think 395 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:48.400 logically that to be evidence and a murder it would 396 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:53.960 have to say, uh, you know, I killed ex victim 397 00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:57.720 and here's how are what I did and none of that, 398 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:00.640 so that nature at all. All those had been meant 399 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:09.200 many years before the crime. And I think, after thinking 400 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.480 about there's quite a lot, I think the genre would 401 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:20.839