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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker DTK every week,
Speaker 2: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening at a high
Speaker 2: school dance in nineteen sixty four, seventeen year old Sondra
Speaker 2: London met a bright, handsome, well mannered Catholic boy, eighteen
Speaker 2: year old Gerald John Schaeffer. They hung out all the
Speaker 2: time and soon fell in love, but after a year,
Speaker 2: as young lovers will, they went their separate ways. She
Speaker 2: thought she'd never see him again. Then in nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: two came the screaming headlines six dead twenty eight maybe,
Speaker 2: and the foolish stories about the smiling cop turned sadistic
Speaker 2: killer and corpse loving fiend, hoarding mementos of his mutilated
Speaker 2: victims and writing it all up in feverish prose. Absolutely unbelievable.
Speaker 2: She was appalled that crimes like this could be committed
Speaker 2: by anyone, much less someone she had known intimately. Remember,
Speaker 2: those were the days before the term serial killer existed,
Speaker 2: before Ted Mundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffrey Dahmer so
Speaker 2: irreqroavely showed us what it meant. In those days, Shaeffer's
Speaker 2: type of crime was not only unnamed, it was unheard of.
Speaker 2: Between March and July of nineteen eighty nine, Shaffer sent
Speaker 2: her the stories included in two sections of killer Fiction,
Speaker 2: Whore's and Stark Stories. Selections from the stories and drawings
Speaker 2: used as evidence in his nineteen seventy three murder trial
Speaker 2: are included in the section actual Fantasies. A limited edition
Speaker 2: of the volume comprising these three sections was copyright and
Speaker 2: published in June of nineteen eighty nine. I'm not writing nonfiction,
Speaker 2: explained the literary Madman. Its killer fiction, a new genre
Speaker 2: where the writer takes violence as an artistic medium in
Speaker 2: instead of glorifying it, makes the reader see it as
Speaker 2: the cruel and horrid act it is in reality. I
Speaker 2: don't represent violence as good.
Speaker 3: Or bad, merely as it is. I let the reader
Speaker 3: conclude that violence is a socially negative force, not to
Speaker 3: be reveled in. Thus he expounded his grim postmodern aesthetic.
Speaker 3: The truth about his crimes did not matter to her
Speaker 3: as much as the chance to take a look into
Speaker 3: his deranged mind. Somehow she managed to overcome her revulsion
Speaker 3: to his sexually violent obsessions enough to continue documenting them.
Speaker 3: His sexism is racism, his fury at every living being
Speaker 3: in the world, including himself, His boast of rape, sodomy, murder,
Speaker 3: even necrophilia. These she managed to tolerate by reminding her
Speaker 3: self that this was important data, and so she decided
Speaker 3: to set aside her own personal distaste for the ugliness
Speaker 3: of the work and focus on presenting it in all
Speaker 3: its twisted glory and leave it to the audience to
Speaker 3: tell her what it was. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 3: this evening is Killer Fiction Stories That Convicted the ex
Speaker 3: cop of murder, with my special guest journalist and author,
Speaker 3: Sandra London. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 3: much for agreeing to this interview. Sondra London.
Speaker 4: Hi, how are you doing, Dan, I'm very good.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for joining us today to talk
Speaker 3: about this incredible true crime classic killer fiction.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm honored.
Speaker 3: Now, well, thank you. I'm honored to have you on
Speaker 3: the program once again. Let's talk about nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 3: as we did in the introduction. You were seventeen years old.
Speaker 3: Tell us just a little bit before we get into
Speaker 3: this examination of what Gerald Schaeffer wrote and sent you
Speaker 3: and wanted to have out there for everyone to read.
Speaker 3: Tell us how it all started in nineteen sixty four.
Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about this college.
Speaker 4: Kay. First, I had to correct It's Gerard. It's always Gerard.
Speaker 4: It's not Gerald in that most people are familiar with
Speaker 4: the word Gerald, so they usually call him Gerald because
Speaker 4: they heard it before. But it's Geord. So anyway, there
Speaker 4: I was. I went to US Tranahan High School in
Speaker 4: Fort Lauderdale, and I was had a dance at my
Speaker 4: school and when I saw this handsome young boy that
Speaker 4: I had never seen before. And so the reason I
Speaker 4: didn't see him is because he went to the Catholic
Speaker 4: school in town. And he we met literally at the
Speaker 4: punch bowl. We both had days, but somehow or another
Speaker 4: we wound up chatting over the punch bowl and told
Speaker 4: him my name, and so he went through the Fort
Speaker 4: Lauderdale phone book and looked up everyone by that last
Speaker 4: name and called them to see if he could find
Speaker 4: me that way. And he did find me, and I
Speaker 4: thought it was kind of flattering, you know, and cute,
Speaker 4: you know at the time. You know, it's only after
Speaker 4: years and years of years of retrospection that I put
Speaker 4: a different kind of different color on the whole procedure.
Speaker 3: Now, you had this short relationship with him, What was
Speaker 3: it about this relationship that it why did it end?
Speaker 3: And then tell us what happened afterwards in terms of
Speaker 3: your writing career.
Speaker 4: Okay, well it was one year from beginning to end,
Speaker 4: and why didn't we break up? I was just a kid, now, look,
Speaker 4: I was a kid. Number one, number two. Nobody ever
Speaker 4: heard a serial killers, and if they had them, they
Speaker 4: sure didn't reach the level of awareness that we are
Speaker 4: accustomed to today. And another thing is when people say stuff,
Speaker 4: you don't really take it the hard. You don't believely
Speaker 4: think oh yeah, oh my god. You know. Uh, people
Speaker 4: just say stuff and you're like, uh huh, you know
Speaker 4: so uh. We had a u a regular love affair.
Speaker 4: And I gotta say this right off because everybody always
Speaker 4: thinks that know what they're talking about, and they're wrong.
Speaker 4: I had sex with John and it was as plain
Speaker 4: vanilla as you can imagine. There was nothing funny about
Speaker 4: having sex with John Schaeffer. And I don't. I know,
Speaker 4: it's hard to believe. We learned these theorems, and we
Speaker 4: learned these overall generalities when we studied the textbooks, and
Speaker 4: then to me, all that learning gets away, It gets
Speaker 4: in the way and blocks the case that's standing right
Speaker 4: before you. So that's one thing I have learned to
Speaker 4: strive for. I studied the literature, but I tried very
Speaker 4: hard to set it aside when it comes to the
Speaker 4: case before me and allow it to be what it is.
Speaker 4: So there you go. John was an outdoorsman. He liked
Speaker 4: to go fishing, hunting, and he had a boat. He
Speaker 4: liked to go out on the boat. His family was
Speaker 4: very respectable. They belonged to the yacht club and the
Speaker 4: country club. And he had one girlfriend before me for
Speaker 4: five years since she was a debutante, so he was
Speaker 4: her debutante escort at all the high society functions in town.
Speaker 4: So that was the boy I knew. He liked to
Speaker 4: play golf. He took me out shooting and taught me
Speaker 4: how to handle a weapon. He took me out on
Speaker 4: the boat into the golf stream. We got stranded on
Speaker 4: a sidebar once and didn't get home until four and
Speaker 4: m in the morning, and appearance rather freaked out, But
Speaker 4: in general it was just a teenage dating, going to
Speaker 4: dances of football games and what like that. Toward the
Speaker 4: end he became a drag. He was upset and instead
Speaker 4: of going out and having fun, it would be like
Speaker 4: a like always. He's a psychotherapist or something, and he
Speaker 4: wanted to talk about his problems, so much. And the
Speaker 4: picture that remains in my mind is just this one
Speaker 4: vignette that we used to go out in his whole car.
Speaker 4: We had a blanket, We go out on the beach
Speaker 4: and sex and stuff. So in this vignette that that
Speaker 4: presaged the end of this, we're sitting out on the beach,
Speaker 4: but we've got the blanket over our shoulders and we're
Speaker 4: huddled under it like two little lost children and or something,
Speaker 4: and he's just crying, well, he's crying and upset because
Speaker 4: he is being pestered by unwanted, intrusive thoughts of killing women.
Speaker 4: And he wants to kill women. And I don't know
Speaker 4: he's telling this to me because some of his closest companion.
Speaker 4: But I want you to understand that I didn't have
Speaker 4: I'm not in any position to do anything that the
Speaker 4: casual armchair observer might think I should have done. Years later,
Speaker 4: I consulted with the homicide chief and the chief of
Speaker 4: detectives there, and Fort Lauderdale told him that John I
Speaker 4: told me he wanted to kill women, and I said
Speaker 4: a lot of people they accused me of failing to
Speaker 4: call the cops on him, and they reassured me that
Speaker 4: no such thing was possible. Cops do not respond to
Speaker 4: reports as someone saying they want to kill. Cops only
Speaker 4: respond when the crime has been committed. And if I
Speaker 4: were to call the cops on him, they would not
Speaker 4: take a report. But in fact, it didn't dawn on
Speaker 4: me to call the cops on him because I didn't
Speaker 4: think he was a serial killer. I just thought he
Speaker 4: was my boyfriend who was supposed to take me out
Speaker 4: and show me a good time, and he was a drag.
Speaker 4: Pretty much.
Speaker 3: Now, after this nineteen sixty four, we're into nineteen sixty five,
Speaker 3: and you don't hear anything more about You thought you'd
Speaker 3: never see him again. You don't hear anything else from
Speaker 3: Gerard for till nineteen seventy two, and you see the
Speaker 3: screaming headlines. But in the interim, you become a writer.
Speaker 3: Tell us what kind of writer you are, and tell
Speaker 3: us a little bit about that writing career, and then
Speaker 3: what happens in nineteen seventy two, what's the headline you read?
Speaker 3: And then tell us a little bit about that reaction
Speaker 3: to that.
Speaker 4: Okay, as far as me writing, it started in third
Speaker 4: grade when they picked me out for a special class
Speaker 4: in creative writing and there was only five of us
Speaker 4: in the school. May take us in there and let
Speaker 4: us create a write. My forte is poetry, and I
Speaker 4: will edited my high school literary magazine. And then when
Speaker 4: I went to college and got a degree in literature,
Speaker 4: our graduation ceremony consisted of me presenting a nine page
Speaker 4: poem I had written about our time sixty eight, which
Speaker 4: was a pretty interesting time. And anyway, there was that.
Speaker 4: After that, I went on mostly interested in being a
Speaker 4: singer and bands stuff like that, continue to write poetry
Speaker 4: to earn a living. I was working for a terns
Speaker 4: and doing legal research and writing, and eventually that phase
Speaker 4: drifted into technical writing along the way. So that was
Speaker 4: the kind of background I had. I had been in singing,
Speaker 4: show business and everything. And I got tired of hearing
Speaker 4: this refrain which goes, there's no pay, but it's great exposure.
Speaker 4: I don't know if any any of us have ever
Speaker 4: heard that one, even oh yeah, but I spore to god,
Speaker 4: I was never gonna you know, I'm like scool Era,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm never going to hear that again, you know.
Speaker 4: And so I set off toward writing. And that occurred
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty nine when I decided to enter true crime.
Speaker 4: As far as writing, I'd been doing legal write. Everything
Speaker 4: is under a structure called work for hire, which means
Speaker 4: you don't put your name on it, they pay you
Speaker 4: to write something for them. And that was worked for hire.
Speaker 4: So come eighty nine then I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 4: There was a crazy little thing called Reaganomics. And for
Speaker 4: a whole year I wasn't able to get the contracts
Speaker 4: that I'd always gotten. Every time I pitched a contract
Speaker 4: to a client, I got it. And all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: this year I couldn't do anything right, and I was like,
Speaker 4: what it didn't dawn on me. It was the economy.
Speaker 4: I thought it was me. So by early eighty nine,
Speaker 4: I said, look at this. They killed Ted Bundy and
Speaker 4: everybody was going crazy. Bundy, Bundy, Bundy and serial killer,
Speaker 4: serial killer, serial killers. It was in everywhere you looked
Speaker 4: her And I said, well, what is this? And I
Speaker 4: read that book by Anne Ruled the Stranger beside me
Speaker 4: and I said, shucks. I said, I can write better
Speaker 4: than that. And I said, plus, she barely knew that guy.
Speaker 4: I knew a serial killer a lot more than that.
Speaker 4: And that was the thought process that led me to
Speaker 4: contact Drord John Shaffer in prison on February seventh, nineteen
Speaker 4: eighty nine. And so that was the starting gun.
Speaker 3: What did you think when you in nineteen seventy two
Speaker 3: and seventy three, when Gerard's trial was being conducted. What
Speaker 3: did you think at the time? Okay, fast forward, what
Speaker 3: do you think of the.
Speaker 4: Time stumble upon that? Myself, my sister and my mother
Speaker 4: hurled it at me eccusingly in a way. This you know,
Speaker 4: this is what happened to that boyfriend the years. I
Speaker 4: don't know. That was the way is hit me?
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Speaker 4: They right, they threw it at me. They threw it
Speaker 4: in my face. I don't know I read it. I
Speaker 4: never heard of anything like that. I was not a
Speaker 4: true crime lover. I never will watch the Whodunnits on TV.
Speaker 4: I never took interest in murder mysteries. I didn't care
Speaker 4: anything about crime really. I loved horses and poetry and music.
Speaker 4: Those were my passions. And of course I lived Fort
Speaker 4: Lauderdale at the beach, so there was quite a lot
Speaker 4: of beach funny in me. And Uh then I went
Speaker 4: to a new College of Florida's uh honor College's called
Speaker 4: an experiment in education back at the time, and uh
Speaker 4: there was no set curriculum and there was no grades.
Speaker 4: You just had to jump in there and really do
Speaker 4: or they it was pass or fail. So there was
Speaker 4: one hundred narc class and only thirty three finally graduated
Speaker 4: out of that one hundred students. So at that process
Speaker 4: I learned to structure my own studies and theories like
Speaker 4: go from the particular to the general, go from the
Speaker 4: general to the particular. So when I set out to
Speaker 4: do Shaeffer, I said, this is a serial killer, so
Speaker 4: I need to read all the literature on serial killers.
Speaker 4: I need to consult the experts, and I need to
Speaker 4: get uh study some more serial killers who I know
Speaker 4: how to compare. And so I contacted the FBI and
Speaker 4: I said, I'm gonna study this serial killer and I
Speaker 4: wanted some help, and they referred me to Roy hazel Wood,
Speaker 4: who became my personal mentor. And Roy hazel Wood was
Speaker 4: so good to me over the years. They had these
Speaker 4: white papers that they issued to FBI agents, and he
Speaker 4: sent me the list of them. He said, any of
Speaker 4: them you want, let me offen them to you. And
Speaker 4: I had his home number to call him consult him,
Speaker 4: and he come I needed to, and he visited me
Speaker 4: in my home. He had me as a special guest
Speaker 4: at seminars and backstage at a a murder trial. He
Speaker 4: uh had me a Meetneer and so it that was
Speaker 4: a big influence over the way I went about this.
Speaker 4: And I'm gonna say, I'm going to boil it down.
Speaker 4: Of course, there's the longest story in the world, so
Speaker 4: I'm trying to only touch the real plot points. The
Speaker 4: first foremost thing he told me is exactly what they
Speaker 4: told creeson the movie, which was, don't ever tell him
Speaker 4: anything personal because he'll find a way to use it
Speaker 4: against you. And the second principle, do not respond emotionally
Speaker 4: to anything he says, because he is going to be
Speaker 4: trying to get a reaction out of you. And you
Speaker 4: must keep a dead pan demeanor. And those two things
Speaker 4: guided me. And the part about the dead pan demeanor,
Speaker 4: that's what really drove Schaeffer into the frenzy that became
Speaker 4: Killer Fiction, because he kept trying to shock me and
Speaker 4: discussed me as fault me with this stuff he was writing.
Speaker 4: It was written at me, and so I held to
Speaker 4: that do not respond. And so there you go. That's
Speaker 4: the biggest dynamic of that whole thing right there in
Speaker 4: a nutshell.
Speaker 3: What were the what was this opening introduction to him
Speaker 3: A reintroduction to Gerard saying, listen, you remember me? What
Speaker 3: were some of the conditions that he agreed to that
Speaker 3: he wanted as part of the agreement between YouTube? Tell
Speaker 3: us a little bit about what he expected, what he
Speaker 3: wanted from you.
Speaker 4: I agree, he and narcissistic personality as he is. I mean,
Speaker 4: he would say anything more. But he he couldn't resist
Speaker 4: me no matter what. You know. I was the one
Speaker 4: that had to power over him, and I I wrote
Speaker 4: to him and I said, uh, hi, ah remember me?
Speaker 4: And I said, uh, become a writer and would like
Speaker 4: to do a collaborate in a book about your life
Speaker 4: and crimes. And he responded back, how could I not
Speaker 4: remember you? My love for you burned for like a
Speaker 4: cold blue flame and it still burns. So I'm like, mm, well,
Speaker 4: I'm not in love with you. So anyway, he wanted
Speaker 4: to do a book or what you know, And yeah,
Speaker 4: he had a lot of grandiose ideas and the book
Speaker 4: was a matter of him trying to manipulate me and
Speaker 4: me manipulating him. Because he wanted the gratification of the
Speaker 4: sexual attention, and I wanted a story. And the story
Speaker 4: I wanted was a story of guilt, and I want
Speaker 4: to know what you did and why you did it.
Speaker 4: And so I played to his vanity. We right, Oh,
Speaker 4: you're such a good writer, John. But then I would
Speaker 4: challenge him. I say, you know what, your characters are
Speaker 4: a lot of like they're kind of wooden, really stick figures.
Speaker 4: And I said, why don't you try to bring out
Speaker 4: something more real and a character? Oh my god. So
Speaker 4: he writes to death real, death Row and made in Virginia,
Speaker 4: and he said, his name is Crystal Beaver's and he's
Speaker 4: a sixteen year old prom queen who is organization called
Speaker 4: Justice Now, and that means all you people on death
Speaker 4: row need to go ahead and get executed quickly. And
Speaker 4: so he started writing to these death row inmates in
Speaker 4: that tone, very sexy, flirtatious and challenging. And he caught
Speaker 4: that whole death row in Virginia in an uproar until
Speaker 4: it became a behavior issue. And then the monitor of
Speaker 4: death Row, Joe O'Dell wrote to me and said, all right,
Speaker 4: Crystal Beavers, what do you think you're doing. And I
Speaker 4: wrote back to him and I'm like, you know what,
Speaker 4: there is no Crystal Beavers. It's gerorge On Shaeffer and
Speaker 4: you know so forth. Well, it turns out joe'dell had
Speaker 4: been down there in prison with gerarge On Shaeffer in
Speaker 4: Florida Day Prison previously. He knew him, he knew him,
Speaker 4: he'd been in prison with him, and he knew some
Speaker 4: of these other characters that were trying to get me
Speaker 4: to pay attention to them. I don't know how to
Speaker 4: put it, but so Odell that became a whole other
Speaker 4: thing with him Shaeffer trying to get them all worked
Speaker 4: up in a frenzy. And Shaeffer's like, oh, is that
Speaker 4: real enough for you?
Speaker 3: When you talk about him adding realistic details to his stories.
Speaker 3: What was the premise of this? Again it's called killer fiction?
Speaker 3: What was his What did he decide that would be?
Speaker 3: What were the rules of this killer fiction? What was
Speaker 3: the purpose of this killer fiction?
Speaker 4: Well, I was, I guess determined by me as the
Speaker 4: how it started was. I asked him, maybe it was
Speaker 4: that first letter, If not, maybe the third letter or
Speaker 4: fourth letter. Do you still write those stories? You know
Speaker 4: that his case was based on for the new listener,
Speaker 4: I will just quickly recap when he was arrested, his
Speaker 4: mother's house was rated, and there was a stack of
Speaker 4: manuscripts in a closet that had been John's closet when
Speaker 4: he was in high school and lived there. They would
Speaker 4: put seized and putting evidence, and those are the writings
Speaker 4: that convicted him of murder. Okay. Now you would think
Speaker 4: logically that to be evidence and a murder it would
Speaker 4: have to say, uh, you know, I killed ex victim
Speaker 4: and here's how are what I did and none of that,
Speaker 4: so that nature at all. All those had been meant
Speaker 4: many years before the crime. And I think, after thinking
Speaker 4: about there's quite a lot, I think the genre would
Speaker 4: best be described as jack off fantasies because specifically, I
Speaker 4: say that because there were so many of them that
Speaker 4: just trailed off that he didn't finish. Okay, So but
Speaker 4: always the after he got to the park that was
Speaker 4: most interesting to him, and then the writing would just
Speaker 4: driple off and say he'd lose interest in it. So
Speaker 4: Shaeffer was convicted on the basis of these writings. So
Speaker 4: when this Latter Day project, I think that William Hirns
Speaker 4: the catch me. Killer was very astute when he said,
Speaker 4: I see what he's trying to do is more or
Speaker 4: less mighty the water and create the illusion that all
Speaker 4: he had ever done was right these stories. So therefore,
Speaker 4: you know, he's not guilty of murder. And I think
Speaker 4: there may have been some of that. I also think
Speaker 4: that he was just as part of his sexual disorder,
Speaker 4: his compulsions, that he did these things. He did these writings.
Speaker 4: It was a kind of a masturbation type thing to
Speaker 4: do even if there was no audience. But since for
Speaker 4: this project the audience was me, then therefore everything he
Speaker 4: wrote was targeted at me. Is he if he were
Speaker 4: not being restrained by cuffs and chains and steel and stone,
Speaker 4: these are the things that he would be perpetrating. And
Speaker 4: since he was restrained, the only way Duke was by writing.
Speaker 3: When he start writing these stories to you, Yeah, what
Speaker 3: amount of parallel truth was there from you? Looking at
Speaker 3: the information you knew about the trial? You knew about
Speaker 3: what even what Schaefer says, it's just stuff that he
Speaker 3: wrote long long before that has no relation to the truth.
Speaker 3: And yet he was convicted. And of course part of
Speaker 3: this killer fiction is also revenge against those prosecutors, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, that's right, and the judges and everyone, and
Speaker 4: the media and everyone. And he did issue real death
Speaker 4: threats against all these people and get punished for it.
Speaker 4: He got put in the whole for sending out hits
Speaker 4: against the prosecutor and the judge. So he was he
Speaker 4: was a dead serious about that. He had a record
Speaker 4: of it. You know, it was on his sheet that
Speaker 4: he had done that by the time I met him again.
Speaker 3: But what was his what what was the not the premise,
Speaker 3: but what was the out the the purpose of this
Speaker 3: as well? He was framed with this trial. So with
Speaker 3: the killer fiction he wanted to do what in terms
Speaker 3: of connection to the truth, He said, this is killer fiction.
Speaker 3: But what did he want to do well in the
Speaker 3: killer fiction writing?
Speaker 4: He wouldn't prove that he's just a writer. He's like
Speaker 4: Stephen King that to put a different light on the
Speaker 4: things that he did write. Then he said, well, I
Speaker 4: can write more and show you what a good writer.
Speaker 4: And anyone who ever read any of his stuff and
Speaker 4: me all kept saying to John, John, you really do
Speaker 4: have a talent. Why don't you write about something else? Right,
Speaker 4: But he couldn't tear himself away from these pathological musings.
Speaker 4: So it was a pose. If you really were uh,
Speaker 4: you know, quite inspired as a writer, surely something other
Speaker 4: would have caught his attention in this journey through life.
Speaker 4: But no, it always was narrowly focused. He couldn't stop
Speaker 4: writing about those things that in my research into his past,
Speaker 4: the people that were locked up to him with him there.
Speaker 4: I was able to reach a former cellmate and he
Speaker 4: was there, uh, pre trial and everything, and he told
Speaker 4: me Shaeffer was always writing, writing, writing, and he was
Speaker 4: writing these stories and he's read them to us. He'd
Speaker 4: read them, the horrifying, uh you know, get murder stories.
Speaker 4: And then he got charged and the inmates said that
Speaker 4: he took all those stories and tore them up and
Speaker 4: threw them away. So any kind of madness that affects
Speaker 4: his mind, it does not go so far that he
Speaker 4: can't tell reality from fantasy. He there are people who
Speaker 4: are so deranged that they really can't tell. But a
Speaker 4: successful serial killer has to be able to pull himself
Speaker 4: together and to do the mo necessary to get away
Speaker 4: with the murder so he can do it again. So
Speaker 4: you've got a different type of mind at work there.
Speaker 4: Besides just someone who's you know, morbidly fascinated on death.
Speaker 3: Sure what he talked about descriptions also was evidence of
Speaker 3: his narcissistic personality in that it was all about him.
Speaker 3: He was the biggest and best. He cites ever people
Speaker 3: saying that he was the best, the most skilled serial killer,
Speaker 3: the greatest. And also when he talks about that he's
Speaker 3: an excellent lover. He's basically a romantic person that has
Speaker 3: experienced in s and m and bondage, but also just
Speaker 3: in the ways of life. So in these all of
Speaker 3: these stories, he's a sexual stud. He can please women.
Speaker 3: He knows everything. He's a uber intelligent person because and
Speaker 3: that's evidenced by the crime that he has. So these
Speaker 3: stories are all filled.
Speaker 4: And then and how he outsmarts all the stupid cops.
Speaker 3: Certainly, it's it's it's like go.
Speaker 4: Back to his real life experiences as a police officer
Speaker 4: there in Wilson Manors, Florida. He was a snitch. Even then.
Speaker 4: He would go to the chief and tell him what
Speaker 4: officers were slacking off and not writing enough tickets and
Speaker 4: laying around the donuts shop and that sort of thing.
Speaker 4: You know, all right, you got the three strands that's
Speaker 4: taught the fatal triad, you know that they mentioned about homicide,
Speaker 4: except this is the other side. This is a fatal
Speaker 4: triad to have in prison. You know, he killed girls underage,
Speaker 4: he was a cop, and he was a snitch. So
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, you really can't get much lower
Speaker 4: than that. So all of his bluster and everything was
Speaker 4: some of that must have had to have been built
Speaker 4: up from having to live in prison for quite a while,
Speaker 4: you know, to build up a front that they could
Speaker 4: possibly offer some protection. That his activities that as a
Speaker 4: snitch were so well known in a very small community,
Speaker 4: I don't care how big the prison is, you know,
Speaker 4: and they got up, they got a hotline, you know,
Speaker 4: and so he got job as a wall clerk, and
Speaker 4: then he would go and get defendant and debrief him
Speaker 4: and everything about his crime, and then low behold, those
Speaker 4: details would wind up on the desk of the prosecutor.
Speaker 4: Oh wait a minute, now, how long do you think
Speaker 4: he's going to be able to continue operating like that? See?
Speaker 4: So then the next trick he did that got him
Speaker 4: killed actually was when there was an actual team of
Speaker 4: legal consultants who had a hold of a defendant and
Speaker 4: he weaseled them away from him. He told him to
Speaker 4: do it for less and so he stole their client
Speaker 4: away from them, and then again he got him convicted,
Speaker 4: goten sent to death row. And his Schaeffer's classification officer
Speaker 4: is my source for this. So that those boys were very,
Speaker 4: very popular in me and so that that is what
Speaker 4: he believes accounted for his being murdered. Before he was murdered,
Speaker 4: his cell was set on fire three different times. It
Speaker 4: wasn't because he was a snitch. I mean, it wasn't
Speaker 4: because he was a cop. It wasn't because he killed girls.
Speaker 4: It was because he was a snitch, and he just
Speaker 4: it was a part of him that could not could
Speaker 4: not be controlled, had to do it.
Speaker 3: In this killer fiction, he has a main philosophy someone
Speaker 3: that he targets that he hates more than anyone else,
Speaker 3: and he feels it's his mission to eliminate these people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're talking about whares.
Speaker 3: We're talking about prostitutes. Yes, what is there?
Speaker 4: That's what he calls him. Ho Diferent called him profited. Well,
Speaker 4: all right, I let's go back to something I mentioned
Speaker 4: earlier in my interview where he and Harbor sitting out
Speaker 4: under the blanket, talking about him wanting to kill women.
Speaker 4: Let's bear down on that for a minute, and unpat,
Speaker 4: there's more to it. He told me at that time,
Speaker 4: as we sat out there, that he had already planned
Speaker 4: to kill a girl, and gave me the details. She
Speaker 4: lived on the end of his dead ended street, at
Speaker 4: the at the avenue side, not the dead inside. And
Speaker 4: so he said that they took out the garbage on Tuesday.
Speaker 4: So he pulled his station wagon up right by her
Speaker 4: house and waited for her to take out the trash.
Speaker 4: And he had the accouterments in the station wagon which
Speaker 4: he mentioned to me, will hope and concrete block, a rifle,
Speaker 4: and I'm trying to think what else, but anyway, a
Speaker 4: blanket to wrap her up. And so he was lurking
Speaker 4: there waiting for her to come out so he could
Speaker 4: take her, hit her on the head, wrap her up
Speaker 4: in the blanket, tie it, carried it into the road,
Speaker 4: put her in his daddy's little cabin cruiser, take her
Speaker 4: out into the gulf stream, and shoot her and dumper
Speaker 4: and except his father came driving by in his car
Speaker 4: and pulled up and said, hey, John, what you doing.
Speaker 4: And John's like, oh, nothing, And so he canceled the
Speaker 4: mission and he didn't do it. And that's what he
Speaker 4: told me in nineteen and sixty four. And so then
Speaker 4: when we were working on this book, you know I've
Speaker 4: met every now and that I'd make little illusions to
Speaker 4: the things that he had told me before, but I
Speaker 4: would never say what it was. Then when we sat
Speaker 4: down in a uh in a person in person meeting,
Speaker 4: he asked me, you mentioned this before. What were you
Speaker 4: talking about? And I told him what I had just
Speaker 4: told you what he said, and he said, that's interesting,
Speaker 4: he says, because that's not what happened. And from that
Speaker 4: he wrote the story Gator Bait, and he said that
Speaker 4: is what really happened. And UH in that he describes
Speaker 4: UH hiding him way. He enters her house and waits
Speaker 4: for her to come home from a date, kiss her
Speaker 4: date good night at the door, and come in by herself. Now,
Speaker 4: I want to point out something at this point, if
Speaker 4: you're following his twisted logic, he's reason for doing this
Speaker 4: was because she was a whore and she was pulling
Speaker 4: him away from his righteous Catholic nature every time he
Speaker 4: went jogging by her house, her sitting out there showing
Speaker 4: off her body. The power of her was enough to
Speaker 4: derange him from his proper goodness. Okay, that is the
Speaker 4: way he experienced it. So he called her a whole. Now, look,
Speaker 4: here's what she was doing, sitting out in her backyard
Speaker 4: in shorts and a halt, sunbathing. I mean, who doesn't
Speaker 4: do that? You see? So she didn't have to be
Speaker 4: a whore. He called her a whore, okay. And then
Speaker 4: the night that he claims he attacked her, she didn't
Speaker 4: do anything horror. She went out on the day she
Speaker 4: kissed the garden knight and came in by herself. See
Speaker 4: so it isn't you have to understand it wasn't necessarily
Speaker 4: real whore. It was a psychological mechanism that he would
Speaker 4: use to characterize someone as the being deserving as event
Speaker 4: for his h His hatred is disgusted, and he describes
Speaker 4: what he did to her at any rate. He assaulted her,
Speaker 4: Let's put it that way. It was vulgar and disgusting.
Speaker 4: But he didn't kill her, and she continued to live.
Speaker 4: And and but the title of the of the stories
Speaker 4: gator bait, because he said, if you do what I
Speaker 4: said that I'll cut you up and you gator bait
Speaker 4: or mourning.
Speaker 3: Most of this writing, too, is characterized by this this
Speaker 3: violence that he reports upon that he rains down on
Speaker 3: these people, but also the idea of his again, and
Speaker 3: this is not so uncommon, the idea of sex slaves,
Speaker 3: people that will do everything that he wants them to do.
Speaker 3: Yet at the same time he says contradictory things like
Speaker 3: the one woman said something about and he thought it
Speaker 3: was quite genuine, pleading for her life, something about her
Speaker 3: faith in Jesus, and he hesitated, he said, he hesitated.
Speaker 3: But otherwise if they if they said express something about
Speaker 3: their faith, he would just kill them quickly. A So
Speaker 3: he's very contradictory into when you mentioned about justification, saying
Speaker 3: that they were whoors, there were prostitutes, but in the
Speaker 3: case that you just mentioned, that wasn't a case. But
Speaker 3: he's also brags about being so open minded and experienced
Speaker 3: in the S and M lifestyle that it don't make
Speaker 3: much sense.
Speaker 4: I didn't put in this book, And when I get
Speaker 4: ready to do the second edition of this book, I'm
Speaker 4: also going to come out in another volume in which
Speaker 4: he goes into some other things. Well, at the time
Speaker 4: I took it as just complete fantasy. In the interval,
Speaker 4: we've had Jeffrey Epstein and other related cases come to life.
Speaker 4: And there was a operative who was sent in on
Speaker 4: me and who tried to work me to my document
Speaker 4: for at least ten years, and a point where he
Speaker 4: revealed to me that he had been invited to go
Speaker 4: on this of offshore trip out and it involved recreational murder.
Speaker 4: And that is what Shaefer was writing about in these
Speaker 4: stories I didn't necessarily include in Killer Fiction. There a
Speaker 4: whole bunch of more stories, and they revolve around the
Speaker 4: idea that the women or girls were sex trafficked and
Speaker 4: then whenever they were used up, that the privilege of
Speaker 4: killing them would be sold. It would be part of
Speaker 4: what he called the fleet trade. Well, I didn't publish
Speaker 4: that stuff. I never heard anything like that before, and
Speaker 4: in the intervening years. It's kind of creepy that, you know,
Speaker 4: I really didn't question him about it, like what really
Speaker 4: happened about that? What do you really know or anything.
Speaker 4: I just kept on and encouraging him to write more.
Speaker 4: You see, I wanted the data, and I had to
Speaker 4: divorce myself from my natural personal reaction to it. Now,
Speaker 4: I'd like to talk for a second about the thing
Speaker 4: you were picking up on, which was contradictoriness. And I
Speaker 4: want to say that when Elton Schwartz took his case
Speaker 4: to defend him, he was going around trying to talk
Speaker 4: to anyone who ever knew him, and he commented for
Speaker 4: the record that he thought Schaeffer must have a split personality,
Speaker 4: because everyone who knew him saw no indication of any
Speaker 4: of this kind of a character. And in those days
Speaker 4: we did not have the diagnose of multiple personality disorder
Speaker 4: which has now become dissociative identity disorder. However, from my
Speaker 4: dealing with Schaeffer in real life and going on day
Speaker 4: to day with you know, activities of daily living and
Speaker 4: so forth, I would have to say I believe that
Speaker 4: he did have a dissociative identity disorder because he had
Speaker 4: clearly contradictory identities and he would switch and I have
Speaker 4: letters from him in which he would switch on the
Speaker 4: same page.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 4: And we had there was a lag there with the
Speaker 4: body of research and the psychological theory. We had to
Speaker 4: kind of come around to being able to interpret his
Speaker 4: personality in those terms. But I do think it's important,
Speaker 4: and I want to say about myself that in dealing
Speaker 4: with a person who really is dissociative, it's not an
Speaker 4: excuse like you're Kim Bianki. It's real. And I would
Speaker 4: also say it was real and Danny rowling. But if
Speaker 4: you have to do that eventually you or I, let's
Speaker 4: just leave it to me. I had to develop what
Speaker 4: I call a multiple interface to where whenever this character
Speaker 4: would come at me, I would have to immediately respond
Speaker 4: on that frequency and don't really make any who have
Speaker 4: diference to the other contradictory presentations don't confront him with
Speaker 4: that because there's one thing it will drive a fragile
Speaker 4: person into a spasm of lack of control is when
Speaker 4: you break the fantasy. Okay, So if his fantasy right
Speaker 4: now is that he's a framed X cop, you don't
Speaker 4: just really want to just jerk him out of that
Speaker 4: and all of a sudden remind him that he claims
Speaker 4: to be the greatest killer of women in the century.
Speaker 4: You just kind of have to be reactive to where
Speaker 4: he is. And I say that because of what you
Speaker 4: call trial and error. I say that because I made mistakes, okay,
Speaker 4: And so it wasn't that I was so at this
Speaker 4: or anything like that. It's that I had to do it,
Speaker 4: and so I tried, you know, saying you're a liar
Speaker 4: and look what you said yesterday and all that kind
Speaker 4: of stuff, and eventually I had to get practical and
Speaker 4: deal with what was in front of me.
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Speaker 4: Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: Certainly? I can understand to a certain degree by interviewing
Speaker 3: a psychopathic killer for a year. And I had a
Speaker 3: goal and I believe he had a goal. They were
Speaker 3: different goals, though, but I did have to act like
Speaker 3: nothing he said to me shocked me.
Speaker 4: Oh that's right, I had to do.
Speaker 3: I had to do that because it seems very very
Speaker 3: similar in the disgusting nature. There seems to be an
Speaker 3: envelope that this guy he claims to be. This is
Speaker 3: just another genre of fiction where he's pushing the envelope,
Speaker 3: the disgusting envelope. Yeah, I'm very aware of that as well.
Speaker 3: I think they're trying to see how far they can go,
Speaker 3: and they do realize that it's far past anybody's acceptance,
Speaker 3: but they want to see it again. You mentioned reaction,
Speaker 3: and reaction is what he wants from this killer fiction,
Speaker 3: and from every letter that he sent you. That's evidence
Speaker 3: that's evident in the book itself.
Speaker 4: So when he started right off, he was being really,
Speaker 4: really hateful and ugly toward women, and I tolerated it.
Speaker 4: I built up a tolerance for it. Somehow, it didn't
Speaker 4: just stab me in the gut every time I read it.
Speaker 4: I'd be able to handle it. He got that way
Speaker 4: about homosexuals, he was real vicious about that. Uh, he
Speaker 4: even got that way about Muslims. I guess he was
Speaker 4: preciant that he went off on Muslims. And you know,
Speaker 4: I k I managed to handle it with an even
Speaker 4: keel and keep working. And then he started in on
Speaker 4: the blacks, and I I it. It broke me. I snapped,
Speaker 4: and I s I. I took what he wrote me
Speaker 4: and I bawled it up and sent it. I screamed,
Speaker 4: scribbled all over it and sent it back and said
Speaker 4: this is disgusting. And uh, he got so excited, and
Speaker 4: he was like, oh, finally he got a reaction from
Speaker 4: the media, queen, you know, And I was like, oh, no,
Speaker 4: you know, that's exactly what hazel Wood warn you about,
Speaker 4: you know, but uh I, once I went through that,
Speaker 4: that is when I decided it was even more important
Speaker 4: that I published it. Now, I want to tell you
Speaker 4: something else. I was working for an attorney at the time,
Speaker 4: and his law office was a First Amendment UH law
Speaker 4: office represented like the New York Times and other papers
Speaker 4: and defense actions, right, but he was an expert, and
Speaker 4: he also taught constitutional law at the college. So when
Speaker 4: I got this put together manuscript, I asked him if
Speaker 4: he would look at it and tell me what is
Speaker 4: this and what should I do with it? And we
Speaker 4: discussed was a pornography and he said that it was
Speaker 4: a pornography because pornography by the courts was almost always
Speaker 4: a visuals that they did not bother with straight text
Speaker 4: as far as how pornographic it might be. So he
Speaker 4: said he wouldn't worry about that. And he said the
Speaker 4: most curious thing to me, Dan, He said, if you
Speaker 4: don't publish this, you will be doing serious harm to
Speaker 4: the First Amendment. And I was like, what.
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 4: And he said, you are oblicated to publish this, and
Speaker 4: if you if you take the role of censoring it,
Speaker 4: then you are internalizing the oppression of the First Amendment.
Speaker 4: So that's something I don't think anybody's ever charged anyone with.
Speaker 4: But that's what happened along way to publishing this consulted
Speaker 4: and then that was what I was advised, that was
Speaker 4: my legal counsel that if I didn't publish it, I
Speaker 4: was harming the First Amendment. Well, you know, Shaeffer wrote
Speaker 4: this stuff in Florida State prison. But when I typesaid
Speaker 4: it and sent back to him, it was seized and
Speaker 4: called pornographic filth and he was thrown in the hole
Speaker 4: for thirty days for having it.
Speaker 3: And what did they say to you? I know what
Speaker 3: they did to him.
Speaker 4: Basic They said, you're not a real journalist. And I said, oh,
Speaker 4: yes I am. And I sent them the letters of
Speaker 4: incorporation of my publishing company, Pete Media Queen, LLC. And
Speaker 4: I said this is a Georgia corporation. Excuse me, I said, uh,
Speaker 4: I have a corporation. I'm a journalist. And then they
Speaker 4: said you are under investigation and you won't be allowed
Speaker 4: in the prisons until we complete our investigation. And I said, okay, fine,
Speaker 4: I says, why don't I come up there and meet
Speaker 4: with you so you can investigate me? And they said, no,
Speaker 4: that's not how it works. So that went along, and
Speaker 4: they kicked me out of Florida State Prison. And then
Speaker 4: they transferred Schaeffer down to Belglade, which I said, lower security,
Speaker 4: and it was down there so he could go to
Speaker 4: a hearing. And while he was there, they let me
Speaker 4: in to visit him at Belglade, and so that way
Speaker 4: I got quote unquote on his visiting list. Okay, so
Speaker 4: when he listened back to Florida State Prison, there I
Speaker 4: was on his list. See well, that made them extremely angry.
Speaker 4: So they told I was in Atlanta. I call, said
Speaker 4: him on my head down there and visit him. I
Speaker 4: just wanted to check as he available to receive visits. No, no,
Speaker 4: come on down. Everything's like, come on down, come on down.
Speaker 4: I wait in the line. I get up there and
Speaker 4: they said, well, sorry, this London, you're not allowed to
Speaker 4: enter this prison. I said what I called yesterday, you know, right.
Speaker 4: So it went from there. It went on.
Speaker 3: Now the course, now, the correspondence you had with Gerard
Speaker 3: John Schaeffer lasted quite a while, but the tone of
Speaker 3: these letters changed dramatically from the beginning to the in
Speaker 3: sort of midpoint, and then at the end of tell
Speaker 3: us about the change in the correspondence and why, oh.
Speaker 4: You put it in such a sane way. You know,
Speaker 4: it was pretty it was pretty crazy. Well he went along,
Speaker 4: he went along, sending me all this stuff, and I
Speaker 4: had a meeting with him in person and I said,
Speaker 4: look here, John, I says, this is stupid. I says,
Speaker 4: you're not a real serial coader. It's writing all this
Speaker 4: dirty stuff and sending it to me, and I don't
Speaker 4: want to read it anymore or not. I don't want
Speaker 4: to be bothered with you. And then he's like, oh really,
Speaker 4: and he's like, whoa, you will miss out on your
Speaker 4: chance of a lifetime to have a real serial killer,
Speaker 4: and you know all this and all this, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 4: uh huh. At that point he offered up artist Tool,
Speaker 4: whom he had comed into working with me by telling
Speaker 4: him I was going to send him money, which was
Speaker 4: a lot. And so he says, oh, I've got otist
Speaker 4: Tool for you. Isn't that great? You can have a
Speaker 4: real serial killer. And that went off on another tension.
Speaker 4: As for him, he started the next phase of his assault,
Speaker 4: and this one you would describe as uh, I'll prove
Speaker 4: to you that it's worth your time to stick around
Speaker 4: with me.
Speaker 8: And his.
Speaker 4: His ever elusory goal was his appeal. He had an appeal.
Speaker 4: Schaeffer had twenty appeals. He got all the way to
Speaker 4: the United States Supreme Court. So he said, oh, I've
Speaker 4: got an appeal, and when my appeal's over, I'll give
Speaker 4: you everything I'll give you you know, blah blah blah.
Speaker 4: So just stick around. And so that was that phase.
Speaker 4: And during that phase, he sent me things that were
Speaker 4: more and more incriminating and statements that were more and
Speaker 4: more in the first person, in fact based, and finally
Speaker 4: I said to him, John, Okay, that's it. I'm convinced
Speaker 4: you're a serial killer. Okay. So that was fine except
Speaker 4: for his other personality okay, And that was where we
Speaker 4: started the next phase, which was to threaten me and
Speaker 4: threaten my child. Uh. I had a personal friendship with
Speaker 4: a touring musician that I never mentioned to him. He
Speaker 4: sent me a letter with that musician's tour date, sent
Speaker 4: it and said he's not safe either. He sent people
Speaker 4: in on me personally to drop off threatening messages. Uh,
Speaker 4: tuck them in my in the winch. You'll wipe out
Speaker 4: my car and uh, he also started a program of
Speaker 4: sending out UH all these statements he UH found willing publishers.
Speaker 4: UH for example, Fatal Visions in Australia, and they published
Speaker 4: a a curse that he put on me, who wrote
Speaker 4: this law elaborate satanic curse against me. It's still out
Speaker 4: there somewhere, and uh, oh, I gotta tell you this, this,
Speaker 4: it's just terrible. One day I got a call from
Speaker 4: Roy Hazelwood. Oh hi, woy good to hear from you. Well,
Speaker 4: he says, UH, not so good. He says, so, what
Speaker 4: do you think our boy's up to now? And I said,
Speaker 4: oh no, and he said, oh yes. He Shaeffer had
Speaker 4: sat down and he had written to every cop shop
Speaker 4: that he can find in his book of cop shops
Speaker 4: and sent them a statement saying that UH contacts son
Speaker 4: for London Media Queen to find out details of homicides
Speaker 4: in your jurisdiction. Sontra London is close personal friends, on
Speaker 4: an intimate relationship with Roy Hazelwood. Okay. And when Roy
Speaker 4: told me that I like to died, I like to
Speaker 4: die write them there, I'm like, oh no, I never
Speaker 4: told him anything. He said, I know, I know, and
Speaker 4: he said, I'm not blaming you, But I just thought
Speaker 4: you ought to know whoa And I was so ashamed,
Speaker 4: and I was so embarrassed, and this is the kind
Speaker 4: of stuff he was doing, you know. And it was
Speaker 4: just that Roy Hazelwood was big minded enough and he
Speaker 4: knew me well enough that he didn't just drop a
Speaker 4: bomb on me or something.
Speaker 3: You know, when when Schaeffer sent those letters threatening your daughter, threatening,
Speaker 3: and he had the connections in prison to be able
Speaker 3: to do this, to reach out to you and your
Speaker 3: family to be able to do this, and then as
Speaker 3: you say, you had evidence he could do that. Uh,
Speaker 3: what was the reason behind that?
Speaker 4: He commits a serial killer?
Speaker 3: Yeah, but at one point in there he wants to
Speaker 3: be known as a serial killer exactly.
Speaker 4: That's what I was talking about. Dissociation.
Speaker 3: See was there any merit to him? Yeah, but he
Speaker 3: says that you have to do some brain surgery.
Speaker 4: On your own brain because the normal brain wants to
Speaker 4: resolve inconsistencies and say this is the truth, that is
Speaker 4: a lie, this is true, that is false, And the
Speaker 4: mind wants to settle settle down, and the mind wants
Speaker 4: to make up its mind. The mind wants to come
Speaker 4: to terms and all that prevents you from properly perceiving
Speaker 4: that you're dealing with multiple personality. And only if you
Speaker 4: can really really go in there and wrench your mind
Speaker 4: open for just a minute, just try it for one
Speaker 4: minute and try to allow that these mutually exclusive states
Speaker 4: of mind both exist there. Now, I'll tell you something
Speaker 4: that is in the book. And it happened. And so
Speaker 4: I sat down with him, if face to face, and
Speaker 4: this is before they kicked me out, and I said, John,
Speaker 4: why are you doing this? Why are you sending out
Speaker 4: all these letters to these people when on you got
Speaker 4: me all winded up telling them you're an innocent framed cop.
Speaker 4: Why are you sending them these letters saying that that
Speaker 4: you're gonna confess the homicides? And he said, you don't
Speaker 4: understand because you're not a serial killer, and I'm like, hmm,
Speaker 4: you're right about that. Then he started trying to explain,
Speaker 4: and it really got through to me. And I don't
Speaker 4: know if it would get through to anyone else who
Speaker 4: hasn't actually been there. Actually I had to go through this,
Speaker 4: but it did get through to me. And he said this.
Speaker 4: He says, it's like you're in your room upstairs and
Speaker 4: I'm down the ground trying to get your attention, and
Speaker 4: I'm throwing rocks in your window, and you're picking the
Speaker 4: rocks up off the floor, and they're all different colors
Speaker 4: and you can't figure out where they're coming from because
Speaker 4: they're all different colors, and so he kind of pauses,
Speaker 4: and again then Leen's forward. He stares me in the eyes.
Speaker 4: I can still see it now, and he speaks with
Speaker 4: pauses like I'm going to see now, and he says
Speaker 4: they are different colors because they're coming from different places.
Speaker 4: And there was just something about that that opened up
Speaker 4: my mind to what I was dealing with, and I
Speaker 4: found it very useful later when I had to deal
Speaker 4: with Danny Rowling. And the thing about the images of
Speaker 4: the rocks that are different colors is that they are
Speaker 4: not They don't mix. They don't mix. They're not a fluid,
Speaker 4: they're not a sand. They remain distinct. Each rock remains
Speaker 4: distinct from the other, and there are hard borders between them.
Speaker 4: And I just think if if you could just get
Speaker 4: that image, I think sometime it might help you to
Speaker 4: understand what you're dealing with if you are dealing with
Speaker 4: one of these kind of people. I don't know, it
Speaker 4: just helped me.
Speaker 3: In the writings, he talks extensively about his interactions with
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy, saying that Ted Bundy was a did some
Speaker 3: crimes in a copycat fashion, trying to emulate Schaeffer, who
Speaker 3: he looked up to tell us a little bit more
Speaker 3: about these interactions with Ted Bundy that he had in
Speaker 3: Florida State prison, he says he did.
Speaker 4: Other people say his lying, So there, what can I
Speaker 4: tell you? I do know he was lying about the
Speaker 4: stuff he put out about Artist Tool. He put out
Speaker 4: this interview with artist Tool that is still all over
Speaker 4: the net and people believe it and they'll quote it
Speaker 4: when they're talking about like ritual crime. You know, Autist
Speaker 4: Tool did this Auto do and it was written by Schaeffer,
Speaker 4: and I could, uh, I could tell you that from
Speaker 4: one hundred miles away, and an Autist Tool doesn't have
Speaker 4: that kind of a Florida imagination or ability to express himself.
Speaker 4: And uh, surely Autist Tool had his own, very very
Speaker 4: profoundly disturbed case. But it wasn't what Shaefer said it was.
Speaker 4: It was all Shape was saying that. And as far
Speaker 4: as Bundy, it just fits Shaffer's grandiose profile. To take
Speaker 4: something and build it up like that, uh doctor Seue's story,
Speaker 4: and to see say and to think that I saw
Speaker 4: it on Mulberry Street, remember that one. Each time he
Speaker 4: tells that the story gets wilder and wilder, And to me,
Speaker 4: that's kind of like his creative process. Like when I
Speaker 4: told him that these characters weren't in a personality, he
Speaker 4: turns one into a real person in rights to real
Speaker 4: killers and says they should be killed. You see. So
Speaker 4: they said, well Bundy was there, Oh yeah, I was
Speaker 4: with him, you know, and nobody can really prove he
Speaker 4: was with him. I talked to his crossication officer and
Speaker 4: he said he could have been with him. He could
Speaker 4: have been transported with him on permanent quarters with him.
Speaker 4: It could have happened nice and yet it also could
Speaker 4: have not happened.
Speaker 3: M It's interesting how of how much instigation went into
Speaker 3: trying to manipulate Artist Tool into admitting about Adam Walsh
Speaker 3: and giving all these details. Again, it sounds like Schaeffer
Speaker 3: was involved in giving those kinds of details to a
Speaker 3: half wit like Artist Tool.
Speaker 4: Okay, no, no, I have an audio tape of a
Speaker 4: this Tool before he even met Shaeffer and telling the
Speaker 4: details of that of what he did. That is a
Speaker 4: case that the public doesn't realize what's gone on. And
Speaker 4: let's see if I'll get in trouble for saying what
Speaker 4: I'm going to say, which is I investigated this case,
Speaker 4: and I talked to the homicide detective who was in
Speaker 4: charge of the case, and his mouth, to my ear
Speaker 4: was John Walsh has never been cleared of complicity in
Speaker 4: his son's his disappearance. That's number one. Number two, John
Speaker 4: Walsh and his wife Reva were carrying on one of
Speaker 4: those operations similar to what our friend Epstein was doing,
Speaker 4: where they were getting tape to blackmail people sexual situations.
Speaker 4: And it just so happened that when the boy got snatched,
Speaker 4: Ms Reva was going on an assignation with a job. Okay,
Speaker 4: So therefore police had to go into their little black
Speaker 4: book and interview all the people who had crossed into
Speaker 4: that that operation. Okay, And that is what was in
Speaker 4: the police records. Okay.
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Speaker 4: Those interviews with those Johns. Okay, in this whole situation
Speaker 4: that walsha going. But Walsh was a cash cow at
Speaker 4: Fox and Fox and instilians, sup lawyers. They killed the story. Okay,
Speaker 4: and my my tape of artists confessing to what he
Speaker 4: did was killed at that same time as the lawyers
Speaker 4: came and closed in on that. Because they tabloids follow
Speaker 4: the Floyer request them. They got those police records, they
Speaker 4: got them all right, but not a one published them.
Speaker 4: And they didn't publish the tape I have and the
Speaker 4: tape is real and and w and I I interviewed
Speaker 4: artist myself and uh he was very very real about
Speaker 4: what he had suffered in the in the life of
Speaker 4: a ritual crime that he had uh endured with uh unbelievable.
Speaker 4: I'm just saying that Shaffer hijacket, Okay, And and there
Speaker 4: was another tape of that I arranged a uh tool
Speaker 4: where the guy said, what about Shaffer? Schaffer? He says
Speaker 4: Shafer he says he's scared of death in me. He
Speaker 4: holds out of his hand. He said he's shaken just
Speaker 4: like this when he talks to me. Okay, so look
Speaker 4: here's what we got. We've got a big bullshitter. Okay,
Speaker 4: I I he's uh a con man and a bullshitter.
Speaker 4: And it's interesting to the true crime community because he
Speaker 4: is not just a casual bullshit or he's not HP Lovecraft.
Speaker 4: He is a real criminal. And these are really the
Speaker 4: way his thoughts go. And it took someone like me
Speaker 4: to not allow it to be censored because these thoughts
Speaker 4: are going on all the time. Probably other writers have
Speaker 4: uncovered material this disgusting, similarly disgusting, but they wouldn't publish
Speaker 4: it because they wanted to have a popular book that
Speaker 4: a lot of people would read. And this book, it's
Speaker 4: hard to read or hurt your feelings. And he just
Speaker 4: doesn't give anybody a break. And when I look at
Speaker 4: the way these people get all excited about what is
Speaker 4: Suman calls me the wrong prona for what I think
Speaker 4: I am. You know, I'm just like, look, honey, don't
Speaker 4: even pick up this book. Okay, just don't even think
Speaker 4: about the title, the author anything because talk about your
Speaker 4: feelings being hurt. You know, you won't get through half
Speaker 4: a page. And it's really published in the interest of
Speaker 4: being research material for people who are seriously in need
Speaker 4: of understanding the criminal mind. Okay, it's not recreational. It's
Speaker 4: not a Disney ride where you get on you feel
Speaker 4: a lit Lulu Lulu, but you know you're safe, you know,
Speaker 4: and the ride is going to be over. It's not that.
Speaker 3: It's interesting the themes that he has in the writing.
Speaker 3: Though I've seen discussing material, like I said, I've I've
Speaker 3: dealt with it myself. But this he goes to great
Speaker 3: links to talk about and say that he researched executions
Speaker 3: and to see and he's focused in trusted in defecation
Speaker 3: and urination at the time that death, no, no.
Speaker 4: Full stop. He's interested in defecation full stop. And here's
Speaker 4: the way I figured it. You know, we have that
Speaker 4: oak cliche shell scare you to death. Yeah, but he'll
Speaker 4: he'll try to just scare you, scare the ship out
Speaker 4: of you if he can, and you know, then he's satisfied.
Speaker 4: And then I noticed this scalpy he got caught where
Speaker 4: he tied her up and everything and she got loose.
Speaker 4: He uh put her on a fireman's carry over her shoulder. Well,
Speaker 4: that puts pressure on her, Adamin, doesn't it. And uh,
Speaker 4: that's really his payoff. And I can tell you this.
Speaker 4: I edited Shaeffer and I tried to influence Shaeffer. I
Speaker 4: told Shaeffer, Look, John, I said, Uh, all that stuff
Speaker 4: about murder and killing, that's great. We like to hear
Speaker 4: about that. We you go on in about PP and
Speaker 4: coca as if we don't. I said, we are adults,
Speaker 4: we're grown, We're not interested in PP and cocka, okay,
Speaker 4: so just knock it off. Well, as soon as I
Speaker 4: tell him knock it off, of course, he redoubles it.
Speaker 4: And so I find myself, well, look, John, you write it,
Speaker 4: I throw it away. That's what's gonna happen. So just
Speaker 4: if you're going to still continue to write that stuff,
Speaker 4: I'm still going to continue to throw it away. So
Speaker 4: believe me, I threw away a lot of it. And
Speaker 4: what you see in there, I only let it be
Speaker 4: in there if it absolutely was part of the plotline. Okay,
Speaker 4: And what you see, believe me, I've taken out five
Speaker 4: times as much because I told him, we're just just disgusting, Yes.
Speaker 3: But it is that lightening. Huh, it's very enlightening. I mean,
Speaker 3: we don't want to focus on disgusting.
Speaker 4: Left it in there. You saw it, yes, I saw it.
Speaker 4: One thing you know that it was even worse than
Speaker 4: the original and the handwritten.
Speaker 3: I can't even imagine. One thing that's very interesting we
Speaker 3: didn't talk about and we need to talk about is
Speaker 3: that it's part of this psychological attack on you eventually,
Speaker 3: and then of course the threats to you and your family,
Speaker 3: and then his denigration of you as a called you
Speaker 3: the same word whore as well, and a sheet and
Speaker 3: a liar.
Speaker 4: Uh. In this.
Speaker 3: He also claims that you were the trigger, that your
Speaker 3: relationship was also a trigger. Explain that. What do you say.
Speaker 4: I think it's true because among the papers that were
Speaker 4: in evidence, there was a letter. He had been arrested
Speaker 4: and he was in jail, he hadn't been charged, and
Speaker 4: he wrote a letter to his mother and he talked
Speaker 4: about his dear wife, Teresa, he was married to that.
Speaker 4: In that that's a whole other story. It was put
Speaker 4: out aside for now, and he talked about a girl
Speaker 4: who was his mistress at the time. Her name was Lynnette,
Speaker 4: and he said, but the one I can't forget was Sandy,
Speaker 4: and he geez, it's been you know, ten years. And
Speaker 4: he wrote that in his letter to his mother upon
Speaker 4: first being arrested. I was the one he couldn't forget. Well,
Speaker 4: I'll tell you a little about about how we broke up.
Speaker 4: Maybe it's a pertinent to criminological studies. I had some
Speaker 4: friends who happened to be boys. They were not any
Speaker 4: kind of romantic, they were just friends. And they didn't
Speaker 4: like Shaeffer. And they had this cute guy that went
Speaker 4: to college nearby, and they said, let's introduce her to him.
Speaker 4: Maybe she'll fall for him. And they did and I did,
Speaker 4: and he became my new boyfriend, cute as he could be.
Speaker 4: And he was a college boy, right, And I'm telling John, okay,
Speaker 4: well that's it, you know, goodbye, so longside and aurah
Speaker 4: baby and so forth. His quote to me was I'll
Speaker 4: get you back. Why you know that, I would never
Speaker 4: think in a million years that he meant anything other
Speaker 4: than he would like to be my boyfriend again. Only
Speaker 4: in deep retrospect or I think of the double meaning
Speaker 4: between that and the other meaning of the phrase I'll
Speaker 4: get you back, and then when I talked to him.
Speaker 4: I had a conversation with him sometime in that following year,
Speaker 4: and he told me that he was hiding and watching
Speaker 4: when I came home from my date with my new boyfriend.
Speaker 4: We sat out in the car. Next he told me
Speaker 4: he was out there watching me.
Speaker 3: Jeez.
Speaker 4: And that's when he used that phrase, I'll get you back, okay,
Speaker 4: So that was kind of creepy. I mean. Then it
Speaker 4: does tell you a little bit more about his whole
Speaker 4: criminal profile.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's very interesting too in the letter, in the
Speaker 3: progression of the tone in the letters, where he starts
Speaker 3: off very very very confident and of course boasting and bragging,
Speaker 3: and then and then you negotiate this deal between you
Speaker 3: to write this book, and then at some point believes
Speaker 3: you portrayed him, and then the tone changes to just
Speaker 3: outright threats and all his importance. But then at some
Speaker 3: point he also tries to then make amends with you.
Speaker 3: He does and in in the same again in the
Speaker 3: same month or in the same letter against against.
Speaker 4: That's right, yeap, And he me to interfere with me.
Speaker 4: There was a case of Danny Bowling, who goes in
Speaker 4: quite popular in the newspapers and everything, and he's singing
Speaker 4: to me in court and whatnot. Okay. And that that
Speaker 4: day when Danny Rowling sang to me in court, little
Speaker 4: little is known that that hearing was moved three times. Okay.
Speaker 4: The hearing was scheduled to be held at one place,
Speaker 4: and I went there and they said it's been moved,
Speaker 4: and so went to the other place. It's been moved. Okay.
Speaker 4: I finally went to where they had it and then
Speaker 4: they wasn't going to let me in, and they said
Speaker 4: this is only for media, and I says, well, I
Speaker 4: am edia, I'm reporting for a current affair. And their
Speaker 4: little local newspaper reporter that they knew so well, she said,
Speaker 4: she is, I've seen the story, okay, And so they
Speaker 4: had to let me in. So they let me in.
Speaker 4: So there was one of the local reporters who told
Speaker 4: me this later, and he told me he had three
Speaker 4: sources on it, and he said the reason that was
Speaker 4: moved three times, and all that was because they had
Speaker 4: word that Danny Rowling was going to break out. He
Speaker 4: was going to hold me hostage and break out, okay,
Speaker 4: And they was Shaeffer. Shaeffer told them that Shaeffer told
Speaker 4: them that, okay, But besides, that is the stupidest thing,
Speaker 4: Like you don't have metal detectors, you know, Like you
Speaker 4: don't have a whole place full of armed guards, you know.
Speaker 4: And then someone else made the joke if he was
Speaker 4: going to kidnap someone, why not Kidna's someone that someone
Speaker 4: that people cared about. Why he said, okay, but I'm
Speaker 4: just saying that's how far Shaeffer kept on and on
Speaker 4: and on. I want to tell you one more thing.
Speaker 4: Remember I told you he was transferred over there to
Speaker 4: the Belglade prison, and while he was there, he gave
Speaker 4: thought to following a guilty plead to all his murders
Speaker 4: and then he would tell me everything. And he said
Speaker 4: he I didn't want to do that less it was
Speaker 4: okay with his mom. So his mom and I came
Speaker 4: together to visit him at the prison, and I sat
Speaker 4: with them as he presented this to her and said, Mom,
Speaker 4: what if I plead guilty, would it be okay to
Speaker 4: you and everything? And she pretty much said yes, sure,
Speaker 4: I don't care, you know, And so that was what
Speaker 4: he was supposed to do. He was kind of supposed
Speaker 4: to plead guilty now because mom said it wouldn't bother her, right,
Speaker 4: But you know you have to yet to see all
Speaker 4: this stuff goes on behind the scenes. You can only
Speaker 4: put so much in one book.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, Why don't you tell us about plans for
Speaker 3: new editions of not only Killer Fiction, but the book
Speaker 3: you did about Danny Rowling, tell us about the what
Speaker 3: happened to enabled you to be able to do this,
Speaker 3: tell us a little bit about us and these new ddutions.
Speaker 4: Thank you for asking, Dan. Both these books were published
Speaker 4: by Farrell House, which was slowly owned by Adam Parfrey.
Speaker 4: He died and his sister, Jessica Parfrey inherited the business.
Speaker 4: And meanwhile, Fararelhouse never did one five cents worth of
Speaker 4: promotion of any of my books or any books. Only
Speaker 4: books they promoted were books that were written by Adam,
Speaker 4: and so the books just withered on the vine, and
Speaker 4: you let him go out of print. And I had
Speaker 4: complaints about both of those books, about the way they
Speaker 4: were typeset, and they never gave me a blue line
Speaker 4: proof to examine and just run them to print. And
Speaker 4: now he said, no, oh no, no, not that this,
Speaker 4: you know, and look this okay they had Adam said, well,
Speaker 4: we'll fix it on the second run, and what they
Speaker 4: did was never did a second run and left them
Speaker 4: like that, never advertised them. A lot of people would
Speaker 4: go looking for these books, couldn't find them, even on
Speaker 4: the Faraoh House website, couldn't find them. Write to me
Speaker 4: and say where can I get these books? And I
Speaker 4: have similar letter to Pharaoh House and say, look, people
Speaker 4: can't find the books and everything's nothing. Nothing happened. So anyway,
Speaker 4: now I put through a request, a formal request, and
Speaker 4: I got the copyright back from the Making of a
Speaker 4: Serial Killer, which is the book about Danny Rowling, and
Speaker 4: so I am right up to the end of that
Speaker 4: book to put I'm going to put it out myself
Speaker 4: on Amazon and a ninety nine percent done. I just
Speaker 4: have a couple of finishing touches to put on it,
Speaker 4: and that it's going to be the second edition of
Speaker 4: the Making of a Serial Killer, which is the story
Speaker 4: of Danny Rowling. And it's pretty much like the first edition, folks,
Speaker 4: except there's a lot more illustrations, and the type setting
Speaker 4: conventions I established are now actually implemented instead of disregarded,
Speaker 4: and so it'll be better. But anyway, it'll be ready soon.
Speaker 4: And I like books I don't care about e books,
Speaker 4: So you'll be able to get an actual book of
Speaker 4: the Making of a Serial Killer really, really, really really soon,
Speaker 4: I promise. Then as soon as I get that out,
Speaker 4: we'll complete the next volume, Beyond the Killer fiction, because,
Speaker 4: like I mentioned a minute ago, you do a lot
Speaker 4: of work on a case, only so much can go
Speaker 4: on a book, and that's twice as much for Danny Rowling.
Speaker 4: I have a ton of new material on Danny Rowling,
Speaker 4: and I have it already compiled. I've already got four
Speaker 4: hundred pages, but I have two interviews I want to
Speaker 4: do to add to it, and with some more artwork,
Speaker 4: and that will kind of afterwards. It's all the covers
Speaker 4: on the verbs are done. Oh, let's say, probably eighty
Speaker 4: five percent of the text is already in dot said,
Speaker 4: and all a little bit more to do on it,
Speaker 4: So those are really going to be coming out. As
Speaker 4: soon as I can get the second edition of the
Speaker 4: Making of a Serial Killer done, I will get that out.
Speaker 4: Then I will set to work finishing up Beyond the
Speaker 4: Making of a Serial Killer and what I'd like people
Speaker 4: to do who want to be notified about this. I
Speaker 4: have a website. It's called Sondra London dot com. And
Speaker 4: on that website you can see a lot of examples
Speaker 4: of my work. You can read them, and you can
Speaker 4: send me a message on the contact and you can say,
Speaker 4: let me know when that book's coming out, and then
Speaker 4: you'll go on a list and I will let you
Speaker 4: know when that book comes out. Now, once I get
Speaker 4: those two, those those two are like, you know, they
Speaker 4: kind of like Sime. These twins. Beyond the Making of
Speaker 4: the Serial Killer picks up where the other book leaves off.
Speaker 4: So then after that we'll get to Schaeffer and you
Speaker 4: will they have a similar structure. I'm just gonna do
Speaker 4: a second edition of exactly what we have here, but
Speaker 4: with some of the jeez, I've been reading it over.
Speaker 4: There's so many type posts I can weep. But anyway,
Speaker 4: it'll just be pretty much what it is, except you
Speaker 4: can get it as a book, which is what I
Speaker 4: like books. And then after that I will continue on
Speaker 4: with Beyond Killer Fiction, which is going to contain a
Speaker 4: lot of this story I left out, like what I
Speaker 4: was telling you about the freak trade, about the white
Speaker 4: you know, when he let me just interject, you don't mind.
Speaker 4: I know we're probably running out of time. But I'm
Speaker 4: jumping back. Yes, remember when he tied up those two
Speaker 4: girls and they got away. Part of what he was
Speaker 4: doing to terrorize them, wanted to cause fear. Was telling
Speaker 4: him that they live about white slavery and he was
Speaker 4: going to put them in white slavery. And John in fact,
Speaker 4: did travel to Morocco, to five continents plus Canada, did
Speaker 4: a lot of traveling, and he kept saying had something
Speaker 4: to do with white slavery. Well, again, you know, I
Speaker 4: didn't probe, but it just seemed to be grandiose and
Speaker 4: really be on the scope of what I wanted to
Speaker 4: encourage him. And you know, I didn't want to get
Speaker 4: him off onto a wild thing when there were real,
Speaker 4: real cases here. So I've kind of let it go.
Speaker 4: But I think it's historically relevant and it would be
Speaker 4: good to have those on the public record. Those things
Speaker 4: that he said were real. I mean, he wrote them
Speaker 4: as fiction, but he also wrote me letters saying it real.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, So that stuff is going.
Speaker 4: To show up in the following volume.
Speaker 3: What would be looking forward to that?
Speaker 4: I gotta tell you, if you're the best, you know,
Speaker 4: I sent out notices to a lot of people, and
Speaker 4: they've been on your sh show and everyone wrote back
Speaker 4: how much they love you.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. I want to I have the best
Speaker 3: fans in the whole world, and I want to thank
Speaker 3: you and the audience for listening tonight. Thank you for
Speaker 3: coming on and talking about killer fiction stories that convicted
Speaker 3: the ex cop of murder. I want to thank you
Speaker 3: very much, Sondra London and look forward to speaking to
Speaker 3: you again real soon about the Danny Rowling case. I
Speaker 3: want you to have a great evening and thank you
Speaker 3: very much.
Speaker 4: And thank your audience.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Bye, good night, good night. Step into the
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