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Speaker 4: He was the first and he's still the best. For
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all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection, deep.
Speaker 5: Part of it.
Speaker 4: Paul, Tom Talk Gun Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 2: It's that time again. Welcome again to gun Talk. I'm
Tom Gresham'm your hosts. We get together every week to
talk about guns and shooting and gun collecting and target
shooting and hunting and yeah, Second Amendment as well. There's
a lot of things going on. We're gonna be talking
about some cool stuff, some AMMO and some shooting stuff.
But you know, I got to jump right into the
middle of this. We just had a major court decision,
actually a couple of them that kind of changes the landscape,
and we've got to talk about that. And I'll get
into this a good bit more a little bit later
in the show, but just to give you the highlights,
we now are able to carry legally into post offices,
with some restrictions and with some limitations. We'll cover that
as well. But the big news comes out of the
Third Circuit, a US Court of Appeals, which just ruled
late this past week that a ban on AR fifteens
and semi automatic firearms, and a big part of this
and a ban on standard capacity magazines that is, magazines
that hold more than ten rounds is unconstitutional. This affects
the new Jersey ban on AR fifteen's and other semiatos
and on standard capacity magazines. What's this gonna mean, Well,
we already have an AR fifteen case, it's been accepted
by the Supreme Court. They're going to hear the arguments
on it and they're gonna make a decision on it.
This adds magazine bands to that. Now, whether this gets
appeal to the Supreme Court or it just sits there
and maybe the Supreme Court uses this as a reason
to add the whole magazine bands to the cases, they're
going to be hearing, I don't know. Just in a
little bit and a few minutes, we're gonna be talking
with Mark Smith about this, and he has a great
way of explaining all that. So we're going to get
into that a lot of things for us to talk
about a lot of things going on on the Second
Endment front, but you know, we also want to talk
about guns and AMMO and shooting and all the rest
of that, and so to do that, we're going to
bring in a good friend of mine. One of the
people we love talking with just because he knows itaddar
and much and also he's just a fun guy to
hang out with. Is Jeff Hoffman from Black Hills Ammunition. Jeff,
welcome again.
Speaker 5: Hey, good to be with you again. Tom.
Speaker 2: All right, So Black Hills Ammunition located right there in
the well, you're in the Black Hills, so it's kind
of what it's all about. But you make really really
good ammo and I know a lot of it is
out on the commercial market, the civilian market, but you
make a lot of AMMO for the military too, don't you.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that's anymore. That's the majority of our business, Tom.
We have kind of evolved into primarily a military specialty
ammunition producer.
Speaker 2: Now when you say specialty, what are you talking about?
Speaker 5: We're not good at well. We can do anything, we
just can't do it as economically as some of them.
For example, eight five five you know standard five five
six ball. The government plan at Lake City can produce
those by the gazillions, and we just can't compete with
that kind of economy at scale. So we have to
compete on things where the government maybe has a little
bit more of a smaller requirement for different performance. Probably
the most well known of those is the Mark two
sixty two. They wanted basically a sniper around in five
five six, and to this day, after we've we've started
producing in nineteen ninety nine, it was type classified I
think in two thousand and we're still the only people
that make precision five five six round for the military.
Speaker 2: So all right, so what goes into that? I mean,
how do you take the five five six cartridge and say, okay,
now we're going to make it a really good sniper round.
What do you do?
Speaker 5: We lucked into this business. There was a retired lieutenant
colonel from the Army by the name of Mike Harris
that came to us back when we didn't do anything
with military and he said, you have a bid on
this AMU bid. I think you can win it. And
I said, sir, we don't know anything about military business.
And he said, well, if you didn't catch the title
I do. This was back in nineteen ninety six, and
so he guided us on how to submit on that bid.
And the bid specs were absolutely impossible, just literally impossible.
They wanted a velocity you couldn't get within reasonable pressures
or the pressures they specified. We submitted because I looked
at it and said, what do they actually want? They
want the performance? Can we get there safely even though
we exceed the pressure And the answer was yes. So
we did that. We submitted and we won the bid.
And then I called up am you and I said,
did you read or proposal. We couldn't meet your spec
on pressure. They said, yeah, nobody could. We can't even
do that. We just wanted to see what industry could
do when you saved us ten thousand PSI over what
we were doing. Well, we won that bid, and basically
the Mark two sixty two was an outgrowth of that.
We started building ammunition for the army Marksmanship Unit and
did well there. So then the government came to us
and said, you know, we need something for At that time,
it was the Mark twelve, a brand new scope rifle.
It was basically an M sixty and a one suppressed accuracy,
accurized and scope cited. They said, we need ammunition that's
effective and accurate at six hundred and I said, well,
we can certainly do the accuracy. We're already doing that
for the Army of Marksmanship in it. As far as
terminal bailistics at six hundred, I don't know anything about
how five five six is six hundred. And so we
started working on it, and they basically said you want
to play, you know, because I hesitated a little bit
and they said, Jeff, do you want to play it?
Normally something like that. It's they put out a source
of SAD and it's competed. They didn't compete it. They
just said you want to play, and so I said, yeah, absolutely,
And basically that's how we got there. And basically what
you do is you pick a really good project value.
You pick the best components of everything that you can find.
The best propellant. We had a special propellant built for it.
We ended up with a Sierra MATCHKAG seventy seven, which
is a terrific bullet. We use several different brass, but
right now we're using the Lake City brass. It's the
absolute best. And then you just assemble it with extreme care,
and you buy good components and put together with extreme care,
and that's how you get good ammunition. We don't do
things like uniform primer pockets or trimola brass. We can't
afford to do that for the millions of rounds we
have to produce. So you just get good components, assemble
them with extreme care, and there's tricks we've learned along
the way. But we still have that contract and nobody
else has won it, so I guess we're doing something right.
Speaker 2: You also produce specialty AMO for shall we say, special
type units out there that you can't really talk about.
But I got to think that all the special stuff
you're doing for special teams put it that way out there,
it kind of filters into the AMMO that the rest
of us can buy on store shelves.
Speaker 5: Yes, when the government comes to us, and they'll come
to us on a fairly regular basis, we've developed something
over forty different AMMO items for the military, and they've
learned to trust that. They'll come to us and say,
you know, it'd be nice if we had something that
would do with this. You know, not a sources saw it,
just drop a hint and right, We're willing to do
the R and D on it, and we'll we'll work
on it and come up with something that does that
special thing that they want. And once we figure out
how to do that, it does trickle down into the
commercial market quite often.
Speaker 2: So what do you learn from that? How do you
incorporate all these things you've learned from doing the special,
high end military stuff to the commercial stuff that we
take out into the field for hunting deer and elk.
How do you make better I am? I guess is
the real question.
Speaker 5: One of the things that you're propellant makes a really
big difference. Tom. We didn't realize that. It's something we
learned along the way, and two thousand and five we
found that our mark two sixty two needed to have
better tempt stability, and at that time we didn't even
understand what all went into that. But what we've learned
is there's some propellants that are better than others, and
you just learn which propellants and it makes a big
difference because there's probably been a lot of your listeners
out there that have developed a load or bought factory
ammo and it works great. They're out at seventy degrees
and everything is great. But then they get out, for example,
in the middle of a dog town, and dogs like
it when it's nice and bright and sunny and summertime,
and so maybe it's eighty degrees or maybe it's one
hundred degrees and the dogs are still out, so you're
out their shoes and maybe you're shooting a lot because
you're into a good dog town, and your gun gets hot,
you've got a round chambered when everybody says, hey, we've
kind of knocked him down here, let's go over to
the other side of the field. So you spend ten
minutes moving over to the other side of the field,
or even five minutes with around sitting in that super
hot chamber, and then you touch it off when you
line up on a dog and you touch it off
and it blows a primer and you get a little
gas back in your face and you're saying, well, I
must have hit a hot round or I must have
put too much into that one. No, what happened there
is that you needed that round up. One thing we've
learned on er ar or an M four, which is
kind of a worst case thing, is those chambers can
get up to over three hundred degrees. So you have
to build ammo that can put up with that kind
of environment where it sits in a chamber for a
minute or so. At at three hundred degrees cooked, you're
really cooking that. And you have to select really good propellant.
That's that's one of the things that we've learned. Just
got to learn what good propellant is and you got
to test for it.
Speaker 2: Interesting. So, yeah, obviously you increase the temperature, you increase
the pressure. Well, you increase the pressure. You know, even
if you're not blowing primers, the bullets are not flying
to the same place because the pressure's higher.
Speaker 5: That shows your experience. That's the other thing for long
range shooters. If you don't have good temp stability on
your propellant and your velocity is changing one hundred and
fifty feet per second when they amunition gets hot, that's
going to affect your trajectory and that can you know
that makes it a lot harder to hit stuff at
eight hundred yards or or beyond that. I'm not advocating
hunting at eight hundred yards, but it's still just a
lot of fun to be able to hit stuff out there.
And if you're having a good time in shooting fast
and you got around the seating up with the chamber
and all of a sudden you're missing, that might be
the problem.
Speaker 2: Interesting, all right, So I know people right now are
at least if they're not, they should be starting to
think about hunting. Seasons are coming up and getting ready
for that. You have a full ballistic lab. You do
a lot of testing into ballistic gelatin. And I think
you were kind of like me at first. You're thinking, Okay,
the all copper bullets are interesting, but I'm not sure
that they're is good for hunting as the old cup
and core or the bonded bullets. But your testing has
shown they really really do perform.
Speaker 5: They really do. I've become a believer, and that's that's
something because I was, as you said, a skeptic at first.
I thought copper bullets that are harder, they're probably hard
to get jumping up and they'll probably fail at long distance,
and I was absolutely wrong. You can work with that
metal cut weaknesses into the bullet. Basically, you can design
that bullet to pop open immediately when it hits something,
but still retain excellent weight. And you don't need quite
as heavy as a bullet as you do with a
lead bullet because you're not losing weight along the way.
So you can shoot a lighter bullet at a higher velocity.
It offsets what you would think would be a performance
loss on ballistic coefficient. You think, oh, the lighter copper
bullets aren't going to fly as well. Well you can.
You can use a lighter bullet and shoot it faster,
and that greatly offsets that problem. But in short, I've
become a believer. I shoot a lot of copper bullets.
All of my armags are loaded with monolithic bullets.
Speaker 2: So not just for hunting, but you're even working with
the copper bullets all like self defense loads because sometimes
the bad guys hiding behind something you need to get through.
Speaker 5: Yep, exactly. That's another advantage to monolithic bullets is they
can not only retain their weight when they hit the target,
as in jail or an animal, but they're also really
good at windshields, car doors, other barriers like that, and
it doesn't come at the risk of overpenetration because normally
you think when you design something to shoot your barriers,
it's going to shoot right through soft targets, and it's
not true. You're going to get stuff that bullets. You
can design them so that will work really good on
game animals or self defense situations without over penetrating, but
still be effective on barriers. You can get the best
of both worlds. You know.
Speaker 2: When I hear you talk about that, I'm reminded you're
never very far away from your career as a police
officer or a sniper, are you.
Speaker 5: Oh, it's uh. When you become a become a cop,
it's not a job anymore. It's something you internalize it,
so it's kind of hard to give that up. And
sniping it's the same thing. You know, you learn a
bunch of stuff. And when I retired as as team leader,
you know, it was kind of an adjustment for me.
I moped around a little bit and find I realized, Jeff,
you're the same guy you always worry you just don't
have the same responsibilities and that helped a lot. But yeah,
you're right, you internalize that and it's you still. You
don't forget everything that you learned, and you still care
about those guys.
Speaker 2: Honestly, Jeff, I will tell you, I like to get
you on here and we'll talk about your products, and
you make some of the very best demo that's on
the market. But mostly I don't want people to know
who you are, and then that permeates your entire company
and everywhere you go. Everybody in the company has that
same attitude that you have of making really good ammo
that people are betting their lives on. And for me,
that's what Black Gulls Ammo is all about. It's it's you,
it's the people there, it's what's behind it. And knowing
that everything around you're making you know that somebody is
betting a hunt or betting their life on it.
Speaker 5: That's that's something You're exactly right. Everybody here understands that
what we're doing and that a life could depend on
every round that we make, one story that we tell.
Sometimes We've got a whole room full of lady inspectors
that hand inspect every round of ammunition, and one of
them our son graduated from rangers school and he was deployed.
And all of our lot codes have a plenty of
information on it, including not only who made it, what
machine has made on, but who the inspector was. So
her son, this ranger in Afghanistan. When they'd get a
ship my AMMO and it was Blackhall's AMMO, they would
he would dig through the AMMO to find his mom's
inspection number. So he was shooting ammunition that his mom
had built for him.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 5: When she reported that back and then his mom called
the rest of the inspectors, all of a sudden, we
had a whole room full of moms. You know, everyone
really understood that it meant something that lives do depend on.
It might be somebody that you really love. There you go, Jeff,
thank you so much. I appreciate what you do. Black
Kill's AMMO is black dash Hills dot com. You make
good stuff, my friend. Oh thank you, Tom, thanks for
inviting me on again.
Speaker 2: You bet anytime. All right, don't go far, folks, We'll
be right back with more gun talk.
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Speaker 2: Put all your gear on that you carry and then
roll around on the ground. Now, get up all your
gear that's on the ground. That's what you're not gonna
have in a fight.
Speaker 5: Gun Talk should be in your podcast feed. Check out
gun Talk Nation. What's it like to be blown up?
Speaker 8: You know, if it's like C four, it's almost like
a smack hunting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we talk about that too. On your crosshairs, I
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Speaker 2: Now whether here Tom Grasham Eat six six talk gun
or Tom talk gun, that'll get you in here. We're
talking about well pretty much everything we're talking about, well,
different kinds of bullets, kind of loads. We've learned a
little bit about propellants for your reloads from Jeff Hoffman,
and how we got the shoote store that just broke
this week. Actually over the last three weeks, if you will.
Of course, we have the United States Supreme Court deciding
to grant sert to accept a case on an AR
fifteen ban, and that will be heard this fall, probably
get the decision next June. And then on Friday, the
Third Circuit Court of Appeals, which is the final court
before it goes to the Supreme Court, decided that New
Jersey's ban on air fifteens and all semi automatic rifles
is simply unconstitutional and they struck it down. This is
right after the Seventh Circuit, like a week and a
half before that decided that yeah, it's perfectly fine to
ban air fifteens, no problem, it's not unconstitutional at all.
So now you got the Seventh Circuit saying, yeah, you
can ban air fifteens, and the Third Circuit said, no,
you can't, that's unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court's already agreed
to hear a case. Now there's an additional factor in
the Third Circuit decision because they also included in this
case magazines, that is, New Jersey band magazines. They would
hold more than ten rounds. The Court struck that down
and said, that's ridiculous. You mean it's okay to have
ten rounds and not to have eleven rounds. One more
round put you over the limit. That's not constitutional. So
they struck that down too. Now, quick update, if you
are in New Jersey, you don't run out and buy
these things yet, because they have to issue a mandate
on it, and then until that's done, it is not law.
So just relax a little bit, okay. Also, can I
just make a little suggestion as a friend, if you're
in New Jersey and you decide, once it is locked,
run out and buy stuff you may or may not
want to post about it. You may want to be
a little circumspect. It's kind of like flashing your conceal
carry gun and you showing everybody that you're concealed carrying.
I would hold off a little bit, let the water settle,
find out what's going on before you start posting publicly
about buying that. Not to say it's wrong or anything else,
I'm just saying, given the circumstances around there, I'd be
a little bit careful. When we come back. Where are
we talking with Mark Smith from the Four Boxes Diner.
He is perhaps the very best at explaining this kind
of stuff, the inside baseball stuff, on the legal issues,
but he makes it understandable and there's always the well
then what does that mean for the rest of us.
We'll be right back with that if you want to
join us again. Eight six' six talk. Gun I'm Tom
gresham and this is gun.
Speaker 5: Talk.
Speaker 8: Hell, yes we're going to take YOUR ar, fifteen YOUR
ak forty.
Speaker 2: Seven, HEY i actually know you're Not beto Or. Uric
you're not going to take away OUR ak forty seven
is OUR ar Fifteen's, hey welcome. Back I'm Tom. Gresham
this is Gun. Talk jo right now is the GUY
i go to AND i need to understand what's going
on in The Second amendment legal. Front he Is Mark
smith of The Four Boxes. Diner, Mark what a? Week
what are several? Weeks? Right?
Speaker 10: Tom how you? Doing always a great honor to be
on the. Show and AS i, predicted we are destroying
the anti gun movement In america step by, step president by,
preston week by. Week the trend is our, friend my,
friend and this is.
Speaker 2: Great you are The karnak of gun rights and the.
Litigation you predicted This Third circuit opinion almost down to the,
WELL i don't know if it's all one hundred and
ninety four pages, worth but you predicted this one. Perfectly.
Speaker 10: Yeah well, Right, well you, KNOW i REMEMBER i was
on The trump campaign back in twenty. SIXTEEN i was
on The trump presidential, team the presidential transition. Team so you,
know AND i know a lot of these. Judges i've
been around these elite judges for a long, time member
of The Supreme, court Bar Federalist, society leader and all that.
Stuff SO i have a feel for how people think
and what they're, thinking how they view the. Law and
that's why WHEN i Say this is HOW i think
it's going to play. Out ignore what the mainstream media,
Says ignore what these anti gun pundits, say and these elite,
professors ignore all that. Stuff just listen to me BECAUSE
i have the best feel for. It And i've been
telling everyone we're going To we're gonna win THE ar
fifteen cas it's just the question of. Timing and you,
know we could have won it this. Term but the
truth is The Supreme court this particular Term tom had
so many of these huge blockbuster cases with the, tariffs.
Speaker 11: With bright, citizenship with the voting.
Speaker 10: Rights at Two Second amendment. Cases they had the, boys you,
know the transgender boys competing in girls' sports. Cases it
was a blockbuster term and that's Why Justice kavanaugh, says,
look we're going to get to the air fifteen issue
in the next term or, two and it just wasn't this.
Term AND i, said, look just, relax it's going to
come to the you, know they only take seventy cases
a year The Supreme. Court it takes, time but we're
going to get where we need to. Be it's, better
as they, say you, know slow as smooth and smooth as.
Fast it's better to get where we need to be
if it takes a little bit, longer and that's where we.
Are The Supreme court is just granted certain in these
the air fifteen, cases and as, predicted This Third Circuit
court Of appeals case has basically is a roadmap for
what The Supreme court is going to. Do it's very
similar to WHAT i expect The Supreme court to do
In june twenty twenty. Seven it looks like oral arguments
in those ar cases in front of THE Us Supreme
court are going to take place in the month Of,
december which is kind of WHAT i. Anticipated if you
look at the number of CASES a granted sir two and,
yeah By june twenty twenty, SEVEN i think we're going
to knock out all the semi automatic rifle bands In.
America and This Third circuit case out Of, philadelphia which
knocked out The New jersey bands is a warm up
to the big national win we're going to get in
less than twelve.
Speaker 2: Months, okay let me ask you, this because The Third
circuit rules that not only the original thought was or
the challenge was AGAINST a, Fifteen so they, say, yeah that's,
fine but also we're going to take in and bring
in all semi automatic rifles pretty aside the handguns and
the shotguns for a, moment BUT i think they're going
to get to that. Now the QUESTION i have for you,
is but in The Third circuit decision that we just
got On, friday they also brought in magazines and, said,
no you cannot ban magazines that hold more than ten.
Rounds is there a possibility that The Supreme court will then, say,
well why don't we include that in THE ar fifteen?
Speaker 10: Case we have, no there is not right, now and
we just to be, clear this is sort of. Counterintuitive
and SOMETIMES i have to tell The Second amendment movement
stuff they don't want to, hear because it's my job
on my, channel The Four Boxes, diners you, Know, tom
to tell people the way it is in the real
world and not just screamshall not being friends and all this.
Stuff and here's here's the real world situation with The Supreme.
Court we're going to WIN ar. Fifteens we're gonna win
semi automatic. Rifles that is a massive. Victory we do
not want the magazine issue blended in with this. Case
why BECAUSE i think there is an outside chance that
if we put the magazine issue in this case with
THE ar fifteen ban, issue and they're both, there there
is a chance a chance then we could see a
split the baby situation where The Supreme court rules in
our favor FOR ar, fifteens which they're going to, do
but for some reason agrees that some limitations can.
Speaker 11: Be had on magazines because they'll be, like, oh.
Speaker 10: Well we'll kind of split the baby. Here so the
proper approach, here in my, view is we WIN ar
fifteen semi automatic, rifles which will be a massive victory
because basically the anti gun billionaire classes spend all their
money on the banning of these guns the last decade or.
So then what we do tom is we go after
and win at The Supreme court the suppressor issue because,
suppressors unlike, magazines have no offensive capabilities in the sense
that you, know no one is getting killed in a
mass shooting with, suppressors so you so what We but
here's the, thing the nothingology the interpreters of the approach
to interpreting The Second amendment is identical to suppressors and to. Magazines,
Right neither in and of themselves are. Guns neither of
them in and of themselves called bang bang, right they're kind
of accouterments or, accessories but they all are the same, thing,
because As bruin said in twenty twenty, two The Supreme
court said that an arm under The Second amendment is any,
instrument any, instrument physical, object a instrument that facilitates armed self. Defense,
obviously magazines and suppressious facilitate armed self. Defense they're both.
Objects they're both. Instruments so if we win the suppresser,
case by, definition we're easily going to win the magazine.
Case so to, me we win ar. Fifties we win,
suppressers which is an easy case because there's, no LIKE i,
said nobody's using Those kimment mass. Shootings then we take
out the magazines in that. Order and again we want
to learn from the gay rights, movement Tom. As you,
know the gay rights movement doesn't just jump right to gay.
Marriage they start step by step by step over period
to twy five years to get the gay. Marriage we
want that, incremental step by step island hopping. Approach, Right
you don't just Attack japan On december nineteen forty. One
you need to capture the islands and battle and battle and,
battle and then you Destroy japan and go after the.
Mainland it's the same marroach when it comes to Our Second.
Speaker 2: Amendment you build a wall one brick at the. Time
SO i got a question for. YOU i was thinking
about this before you came, on and you talk a
lot about the, methodology and then we're establishing the, methodology
And i'm, thinking what does that? Mean AND i think
what you mean to? You explain it to those of
us who are not. Lawyers you're actually saying that the
courts are actually issuing a set of rules and say
these are the rules you must use when you are
examining these. Cases isn't that what the methodology.
Speaker 10: Is that's. Right they're basically setting for it the criteria
or the approach to interpreting The Second. Amendment because there's
two things to keep in, Mind. TOM a lot of
people say that The Second, amendment the right to keep
in their, arms codifies codifies a pre existing, right one
hundred percent. Correct The Supreme court has repeatedly said that
The Second amendment codified a right that we already. Had
it just put it down on. Taper so the question,
is if you're going to codify a pre existing, right
you have to go back in. Time tom historically and
understand what exactly was the scope of the right that
was basically being. Codified so you have to go back
to before seventeen ninety one and try to understand when
the founding fathers wrote The Second, amendment what were they
trying to, protect what were they not trying to? Protect
and that's why this new, methodology which is not really,
new it's From, hiller but they clarified. That it, Says,
look you start with the plain text of The Second,
amendment the right of the people to keep in their
arm shall not be shall not be. Infringed then you
define every term what is to, bear which means to,
carry what is to, keep which means to. Possess who
are the, people they're All american. Citizens what are? Arms,
well it's any in the commused offensive or, defensively or
anything that facilitates armed self defense isn't armed under the plain.
Text then once a modern dy gun control LAW tom
is covered by those, definitions by those, terms the bruises
to the government to show, historically if there's historical laws
on the books going all the way, back that would
sort of car out an. Exception so the EXAMPLE i
like to GIVE tom is we know for a fact
that the right to keep environments does not protect the
right to commit cold blood and. Murder but how do
we actually know? That think about, That how do we know.
That the answer, is we know that historically that before
the Second man was, adopted at the time the second
amend was, adopted and after the second one was adopted through,
today the right to keep en barraums does not allow
you to.
Speaker 11: Go out and commit murder with a.
Speaker 10: Gun so that would be an example of using history
to draw an exception to The.
Speaker 11: Plaintech and you're.
Speaker 10: Right this whole, methodology this approached the burden shifting to the,
government forcing the government to prove historically that they are
exception is real and their modernity gun control law falls
within an exception of THE. Plaintex all that is mission,
critical and if the methodology is favorable to The Second,
amendent it means we win virtually every Single Second amendent
case and knock out all the gun laws In america
except those that say you cannot miss you guns and
or if you're a violent danger to. Others all, Right.
Speaker 2: So explain this to, me BECAUSE i think What i'm
hearing people say about the third. Circuit, yeah In New.
Jersey this applies In New jersey and all the three
states in the, circuit is that people shouldn't rush out
to buy an ar or the magazines because is it
a mandate that has to be.
Speaker 10: Issued, well this is kind of a little gets a little,
nerdy and WHAT i recommend that people do is that
they pick up the phone and they call it The
Firearms Posse coalition or the other organizations evolved and just
simply ask them what do they. Recommend the bottom line
is this that after The court Of appeals issues this,
opinion at some point a mandate. Issues now what the
mandate is is a fancy word that just says The
Third circuit is now done with the. Case they're sending
it back down to the lower courts for the entry
of a judgment and all this other good, stuff and
they're done with. It they're basically, Saying, okay.
Speaker 11: We've issued our, decision we made the.
Speaker 10: Decision we're moving on. Now the truth is, really at
this point everything in The Third circuit that violates that
opinion is problematic for this point of view of the.
Government but on the other, hand you are in sort
of anti gun jurisic and Like New, jersey and nothing
would prevent the government from trying to harass gun owners just.
Speaker 11: Because and, again so.
Speaker 10: That's why, yes once the mandate, ISSUES i, think technically,
SPEAKING i don't see How New jersey has a leg
to stand on in terms of enforcing these. Laws that's
their circus that are. Unconstitutional but AGAIN i would check
with either you, know the relevant lawyers for your gun rights,
groups with your gun, club or with again the Fire
N's Policy coalition and make sure that you're aligned with.
Them because of, course technically, speaking when you win a
case like, this it only binds the parties. Involved so
if you're not a member of the Fire N's Policy,
coalition there's an argument that maybe you're not. Covered but
the truth IS i Think New jersey is dead meat
and as a legal, matter they cannot get around. This
but you don't want to be harassed in the. Process
does that make? Sense, yeah, no that makes perfect. Sense
you don't want to be first in line on this.
Speaker 2: Thing just let it percolate a little, bit, right because
if you buy the gun and.
Speaker 10: They arrest, you, say, oh we don't think it's finding,
yet well then they can arrest you and then you'll
get to hire a, lawyer than the lawyer will circus opinion.
Speaker 11: That you'll win the, meeting but then you'll have to
go through the.
Speaker 10: Headache so avoid the, headache right all.
Speaker 2: Right one other, thing we just got THE us government
in The department Of justice just withdrew ITS i guess
opposition to an, appeal basically saying that now if you're
a member of The Fire's Policy coalition or The Second Amendment,
foundation you may now carry in a post. Office unlet's
do eli military base or in a federal. Building this
is a really interesting. Thing but people are, saying, well
why DO i have to belong to those groups to
have this second member right to carry into a post?
Office but it's kind of the. Court they're issuing very
narrow opinions right, now aren't.
Speaker 10: They, yeah, well this is really a constitutional. Matter if
you look at THE Us, constitution increase three branch of the.
Government article three creates the, judiciary meaning the federal, court
including THE Us Supreme, court and In article three it
says that courts only have jurisdiction to resolve what are
known as cases or, controversies which means you actually have
a fight between two people or more, over some, issue
the Fire Arms POLICY colist and The second amend Of
foundation on behalf of their current. Members then future members
brought the lawsuit against the Federal grumman saying we should
be able to carry guns and post, offices and the
court agreed with. That but the court only has authority
to enter a judgment for the people in front of,
it the specific. Party and because the parties in front
of them are The Firearms Policy coalis and The Second
Amendment foundation and current and future members of, those that's
the only people that the court has jurisdiction and authority
to like, protect if you know What i'm, saying because.
Speaker 11: Of article three of The.
Speaker 10: Constitution so if you're not a member OF fpc.
Speaker 11: Or future you, know you can join today and.
Speaker 10: You'll be COVERED, fpc R, Scf but if you're, not technically,
speaking you're not protected by the judgment because you're not a.
Party and the reason why you're not a party is
because again Under article three of The, constitution federal courts
only have the jurisdiction to resolve issues for the parties
to in front of. Them they can't set forth like
a national policy like they're The. Congress, Hey, MARK i don't.
Speaker 2: KNOW i, MEAN i recommend your channel all the time on,
YouTube just go to four box Of. Steiner but my
question for you is are you having as much fun
as it looks like you.
Speaker 10: Are, well it's a little stressful because ALTHOUGH i enjoy
WHAT i, DO i do recognize that WHEN i say
things and WHEN i you, know WHEN i write my
scholarship AND i write my lawry, articles very important people
are reading those things and following WHAT i. Say so
it's very important to WHAT i say and WHAT i
write is accurate and precise BECAUSE i know a lot
of people that are in positions of influence are paying
close attention to WHAT i. Say SO i take that
job very. Seriously SO i have a great, time AND
i want to win For. America but you, know OBVIOUSLY
i don't get it anything, wrong SO i got to
be focused on, it and that brings a little amount
of stress to WHAT i do because every, word every,
comma every footnote can have real. Ramification So i'm very.
Careful but SO i have a great time doing. It
BUT i also RECOGNIZE i have a serious job to
do in my, mind and that's What i'm trying to.
Speaker 2: Do we are fortunate to have. YOU i appreciate you
taking time to join us, here AND i love what
you do on the channel AND i recommend it. Highly
Mark smith from The Four boxes dying and look you
go and keep this. Up, man we need you doing this.
Speaker 10: Stuff, well you know soon but soon, soon figures Cross,
Tom i'm going to put myself out of a job
and you won't need me. Anymore, oh that's highly.
Speaker 2: UNLIKE i don't think they're ever going to give up
trying to take away our.
Speaker 11: Guns, well we can only.
Speaker 2: Hope all, right take care Of, mark you'd be. GOOD
i tell you What Mark smith. Is he has quoted a.
Lot his articles he, writes like for The Harvard Law,
journal are actually used in briefs and cited for The Supreme.
Court it's an amazing stuff and he has a way
of making things. Understandable NOW i do. Understand people, say,
WELL i have to run him like at eighty percent
speed SO i can understand what he's saying on his. Videos,
hey do what you got to. Do he is full
of information and he does have a way of explaining.
It you may have to watch a few of his
videos to, Say, Okay i'm starting to understand what he's saying,
now but if you truly want to be one of
the most most informed people On Second amendment litigation and
the theory and the plan and what's actually going, on
you want to read his stuff because people, say, well you,
know we should just Go, yeah that's not how it.
Works as even explaining you got to win this issue
to set up the next. ISSUE i, mean thirty years,
ago people were in that world were telling, me, look
this is basic civil rights. Litigation we have to start
working at the basic level and win that, one and
then we. Build so we get The heller, decision we
get The brewing, decision we get you, know each one
is a building block to the. Next you, know back
then they knew they were going after the air fifteen,
bands but they couldn't do it thirty years. Ago but
you know, what that thirty years at work on this
is paying off and we are going to get. THAT i,
mean we are going to win this at The Supreme.
Court these air fifteen bands and these bands on semi automatic,
firearms they're all going down in every, state all fifty
states of the, Country they're all going. Down it's gonna
be a new. DAY i think it's time for a
wellness check on the gun band. Groups i'm not sure
they're healthy right. Now they may be distressed a. Bit
not put me, Here Tom, Gresham we'll take your, know your,
calls your range, reports anytime you. Want eight sixty Six
talk gun Or Tom talk. Gun are you getting ready
for hunting? Season because it's coming up faster than you
are ready For generally most of us sneaks up on
us and, go oh, wow it's time. Again yeah it,
Is and depending on where you, are it could start
as early as next, month certainly In september in many.
Areas i'm doing big game. Hunting question for, you how
do you? Practice how do you get? Ready how do
you get your rifle? Ready how do you get your
your gear? Ready and how do you get you? Ready
what do you do at the? Range or even not
at the, range didn't have to be at the. Range
you may be doing dry fire practice with your big game,
rifle which is a really good, idea a practicing going
from standing to sitting to prone or whatever and getting
down in that position and getting a shot off. QUICKLY
i swear more animals owe their lives to hunters that
can't get on target and pull the trigger. QUICKLY i
mean they're thirty seconds or a, minute trying to find the,
animal trying to get the safety, off trying to find
it in the, scope and on and on and. On, no, no, no,
no from the time you see it to the time
you get a shot off shouldn't be more than ten seconds.
PERIOD i, mean you got to know how to get
into position and get a shot. Off, Okay i'd love
to know what do you? Do how do you get
ready or do you not do? Anything do you say
what's always good? Enough and, look if you're shooting out
of a tree stand or a box blind and maybe
it's not a big. Deal it kind of depends on
where you are and what you. DO i did want to,
mention going back to our last, interview the decision by
The Third circuit on air fifteens goes all the way
back to The heller, decision which says you cannot ban
guns that are in common use for lawful purposes such
as self defense or what some of the courts have
been doing to be able to finesse a ban is to, say,
WELL aar fifteens are not in common use for self. Defense,
well that's not what The heller decision, says it says
in common use for lawful, purposes and then give self
defense as one, example but it's not limited to. That
and then the course would, say, well they're not really
used for self defense because people aren't being shot with.
Them people aren't using their air fifties to shoot. People
that's not what it means to use a gun in
self defense owning a. Gun The Third circuit ruled simply
owning a gun for self defense is using a gun
for self. Defense and now we have more than thirty
MILLION aar fifteens and a whole bunch more other semi
automatic rifles out. There that's certainly common. USE i guarantee.
You and the question is going to be are we
going to get that applied to handguns and? Shotguns, yeah we.
Are there's no way that they can say you can't
BAN ar fifteens or you can't ban semiotic, rifles but
you can ban semiato. Handguns that's not gonna. Fly so
those are going to go away as. Well, now whether
or not that gets included in the case that The
Supreme court's going to, HEAR i don't. Know and, Yes
i'm like the rest of YOU i am impatient AND
i want it all. Now But i've also learned through
decades of doing this that we don't get it all.
Now we lost our rights, incrementally and we are regaining
our rights. Incrementally And i'll take the. Win it may
not be the whole, wind But i'll take whatever WIN
i can, get And i'll come back and try to
get some. More two. Things one is you'll notice that
The Fire's Policy coalition and The Second Moment foundation are
at the core of some of. These THE nra actually
was the entity that had the lawsuit at the Third.
Circuit you need to belong to these, groups one or
more or all of. Them you just. Do you just
need to put your money. Up that's called putting your
money where your mouth. Is because shooting off your mouth
about second movements shout out being friends without putting money.
Up spare, me you're not doing a darning. Thing you're
not helping us at. On give me a call an
eighty six y six talk. Gun how do you get
ready for hunting? Season, also do you belong to the national?
Groups and if you don't tell, me, Why, Okay i'll
give you the. Floor I'm Tom, greshould be right.
Speaker 5: Back