WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:02.919 Oh hey, it's that cup of tea that you forgot about, 2 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:06.320 and now it's exactly the right temperature and it's me. 3 00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:08.800 I'm back at alli Ward High. So what a month 4 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:10.480 or so it's been. If you're like, what, ha huh? 5 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:12.880 What happened so very quickly? I was in the hospital 6 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.280 three times. I had pneumonia, and then I was forced 7 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:18.440 by my doctors and my loved ones to take some 8 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:20.719 time to stare at an ocean. And now I'm back. 9 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:25.160 I'm healthy, I'm feeling refreshed. I've been told I'm glowing, 10 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:27.719 and I'm doing hella better. So victory is ours. I 11 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.239 could taste it. Speaking of taste, let's get into it. 12 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:32.759 So your tongue's just sitting there on standby to talk 13 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.320 or to tell you if you should swallow or spit 14 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:38.799 or gag or lick. It's just like a disgusting, naked, 15 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:41.640 muscular drill sergeant that lives in your mouth. So we're 16 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:43.600 going to talk to one of the most celebrated experts 17 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:46.200 on the study of taste, who is a delight to 18 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:49.640 talk to and handled my thousands of questions with a plum. 19 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:52.359 So I got myself to Philly to do this keynote 20 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:55.399 earlier this summer, and I managed to record eleven interviews 21 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:59.920 for various episodes, and then unshockingly after that, I can 22 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.240 down with pneumonia just immediately upon my return, so lesson learn. 23 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:05.439 But while I was in Philly, I got myself to 24 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:09.400 the Monel Chemical Census Center, which you can locate in 25 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.799 Philly via the giant gold nose and mouth sculpture on 26 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:16.599 the exterior steps. As one researcher told me, it's a 27 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:19.319 good thing that they're not a proctology center. So I 28 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:22.519 went in with my ears open and my appetite big 29 00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:26.319 for gustology, which is a real word. It comes from 30 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.120 the Latin for tasting or flavor. But first from my mouth, 31 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:31.840 A quick thank you to patrons of the show at 32 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:34.840 patreon dot com slash ologies, who have been supportive since 33 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:37.560 before episode one six years ago and without whom the 34 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.359 show would not exist. And thank you to everyone on 35 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:43.200 Patreon who responded to my video about taking a break 36 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:45.000 with such love. I'm so lucky to have y'all as 37 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:45.480 a community. 38 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:46.200 I love you. 39 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:49.040 You can also support the show with merch from ologies 40 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:51.560 meerch dot com or just by leaving reviews and rating 41 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:53.640 Because I read all the reviews and then I pick 42 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.359 an of an hot one to read each week, Like 43 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:59.040 this one was written by Happy Worldwide, who wrote the 44 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:02.319 show is also very good and that the example I 45 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:05.159 was setting by taking a vacation was also great. So 46 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.400 thank you Happy Worldwine. Thanks for everyone who left reviews 47 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:10.680 while I was out, I caught up. I loved them all. Also, 48 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.000 we had a little glitch with running some silence bits 49 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:16.599 this past month because of an AD error, but it's 50 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:19.400 all fixed. Are bad, It's all good now, Okay. On 51 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.719 the episode in which we will chat about celebrity grade, 52 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:28.840 hot winks, excited toxinsmammy medical textbook, flim flam gag reflexes, 53 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:33.039 cats on pixie sticks, weaning off of sugar, the worst 54 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:36.120 soup on the market, which countries have salt restrictions, why 55 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:39.759 some people like IPAs and some don't, artificial sweeteners and 56 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:44.520 aging and more, with absolute gem of a scientist and gastologist, 57 00:02:44.800 --> 00:03:13.479 doctor Gary Champs. I don't know, gastologist, doctor carry Gary. Yeah, 58 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:14.919 I just kind of hold it and talk into it 59 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:17.919 like an ice cream cone. Okay, imagine you're just on 60 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:22.680 a stage talking to people. Yeah, exactly. Your Linda Ronstadt. 61 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.199 First name is Gary. Last name is pronounced poorly for 62 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.520 the French is pronounced beacham. 63 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.719 Is it really Beacham? I definitely would have said bushel. 64 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:33.319 Of course. 65 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:33.919 Of course. 66 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:36.639 I was in a ceremony a few weeks ago where 67 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.680 one of the winners was French and the first thing 68 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:41.639 she did is chew me out for the way I 69 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:42.560 pronounced my name. 70 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:45.719 Wow, chewing out a taste expert. We are off to 71 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:47.800 the races. Did you say it's your name? You can 72 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:48.599 say however you want. 73 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:50.919 That's right. Actually it's a very very well known name 74 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:51.599 in Britain. 75 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.039 Do you have a lot of doctors and scientists in 76 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:54.520 your family? 77 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:55.159 No? 78 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.240 No, really? Were you the first? 79 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:59.879 Well, my father was an engineer. I guess that's kind 80 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:03.080 of a scientist. But before that they were just farmers 81 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:03.800 and working people. 82 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.199 Okay, so it may not have been handed down to him, 83 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:09.479 but he has two sons. One's a playwright and one's 84 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:12.800 a scientist, so when it comes to careers, they all 85 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:16.600 have great taste. Did you always have an inclination toward that? 86 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:18.920 My story is that when I was three years old, 87 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:21.959 a butterfly flew into my ear and I caught it 88 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.920 and I was taken by it, and from then on 89 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:27.319 I was pointing toward biology. 90 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:32.480 Did you start getting interested in how different animals experienced 91 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:35.399 different chemicals? Was insects mouth parts something that sparked. 92 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:38.439 I was interested in different animals, for sure, and I 93 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:42.399 caught collected animals for many, many years, But I don't 94 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:45.720 think I had a real interest in their sensory capabilities 95 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.040 until I was in college and it was focused on 96 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:53.120 how animals engage in the world. And it really wasn't 97 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.759 until I came here to Bodel that I focused on 98 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:58.160 the chemical senses because that's what the institute was going 99 00:04:58.240 --> 00:04:58.680 to be doing. 100 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.639 When it comes to the way that humans experience chemical 101 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:07.319 and sensory information versus other animals, is there a big 102 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.199 difference when you jump from invertebrate to vertebrate how we 103 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:12.680 experience and understand the world. 104 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:16.240 The founder of this institute, Guy in Morally Care, used 105 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:18.439 to say, and he was famous for saying it, as 106 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:22.279 was Vince Deatiers, another famous person in our field. Every 107 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:26.000 animal lives in its own sensory world, and that is true. 108 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:28.279 Some of them are more similar to others, some of 109 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.120 them are more different. It's amazing in some ways how 110 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:35.720 similar in terms of at least sensory responses some insects 111 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:36.439 are to humans. 112 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:39.879 So take for example, the teeny tiny Drosophilia, which is 113 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:44.120 a common research focus. It's the humble and fascinating fruit. 114 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:48.480 Fly, and so fruitflies are an interesting and valuable model 115 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:51.480 for understanding how taste and smell work and what they 116 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.000 do in the environment. But there are other species that, 117 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.360 for example, have no ability to taste or no ability 118 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.360 to smell, or both, and of course there are blind animals, whatever, 119 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.639 So there's a huge variation. There's no general rule you 120 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:04.720 could make about it, so. 121 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:07.319 It's really based on need and what they've adapted to. 122 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.160 What I would say that the sense is most important 123 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:14.680 for is getting food, getting enough food, It is mating, reproducing. 124 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.120 It depends on what they need. So I can take 125 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.040 an example right off the bat, which is one of 126 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.720 my favorites and we worked on for many years. I 127 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:27.439 studied cats and their response to various tastes and flavors 128 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:31.600 and smells, and we discovered, which was a big controversy 129 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.360 in the literature, somewhat of a controversy literature at the time, 130 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:38.519 that they didn't seem to respond very particularly well to 131 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:42.279 sugars like we would. And so we actually found that 132 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:44.560 was true with our domestic casts. And so I went 133 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.199 to the zoo, which is six blocks over here, and 134 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:50.639 we tested lions and tigers and leopards and jaguars, and 135 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.560 what we found was that those animals loved things like fat, 136 00:06:56.199 --> 00:07:00.360 loved amino acids, which was part of protein FRS. We 137 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.160 could tell they had no interest whatsoever in sugar or 138 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:03.839 anything sweet. 139 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:05.199 I'm not really a dessert person. 140 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:06.879 And the way we did this we had these long 141 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:09.199 pans we stuck under their cages. They couldn't get too 142 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:11.959 close to them. But we proposed, and this is in 143 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.399 the late nineteen seventies early nineteen eighties, that in fact, 144 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:21.199 maybe an animal which is an obligate carnivore which cats 145 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:24.800 out they have to have protein, those animals no longer 146 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.160 are not able to detect sugars. That would be the 147 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.240 easiest way to explain our behavioral results. But there was 148 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:33.560 no real easy way to test that at the time 149 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.439 until around two thousand and two, two thousand and one, 150 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:40.720 when everybody including us, discovered something about what the actual 151 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:44.360 taste receptor was in the tongue of humans of mice 152 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:46.759 is where most of it was done first, so we 153 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.240 knew what the receptor was. It's a protein that binds 154 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:51.759 sugars and then sends a message to the brain says 155 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:54.079 this is sweet, and another part of the brain says 156 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:59.199 this is good. And what my colleagues found, I'm not 157 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:01.959 moluckly bygis. But what will make collegues fund is that 158 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:04.959 if you could look at the structure of that receptor, 159 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.160 that they lost function of that particular receptor, and so 160 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.680 none of those cats can taste sweet at all. One 161 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.639 of the most interesting things is that we looked at 162 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.839 then many other carnivores that were obligatory, that only ate meat, 163 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.639 and they all had some change in their sweet receptor. 164 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.319 They'd all lost almost all of them lost it independently, 165 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:27.439 not one event, but independently in all of these species, 166 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:32.039 presumably based on the fact that their dietary needs no 167 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:36.000 longer drove them towards carbohydrates, which is what the sugars 168 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:40.519 are driving for a good source of calories. But for cats, 169 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.559 or for many other of these carnivores, they don't respond 170 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:46.480 to it, and in fact, they can't even handle it 171 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.759 makes them sick. Really, So if you were to feed 172 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.159 your cat friend a diet that was very high in sugar. 173 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.759 If they would eat it, they would be sick because 174 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:59.240 they don't have the mechanisms which they can break that 175 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:02.840 down into something that they can use, which would be glucose. 176 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:05.360 Glucose is also a taste, and they use glucose a 177 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.919 course for their bodily functions, but they don't taste it. 178 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:09.759 They have to make it. 179 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.559 For more on cats on Keto, you can see the 180 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:16.759 study Cats and Carbohydrates the Carnivore Fantasy from the Journal 181 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:21.519 Veterinary Science in twenty seventeen, which stated evolutionary events adapted 182 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:25.840 the cat's diet to one strictly composed of animal tissues 183 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:31.240 and led to metabolic peculiarities of carbohydrate metabolism. And though 184 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.679 a cat's body needs glucose to function, it's not being 185 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.799 absorbed from the gut. Rather, it's produced by the kitty 186 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:43.639 body via gluconeogenesis, which means making glucose. So cats lack 187 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:47.200 some enzymes to even break down carbs, which explains the 188 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:51.000 paragraph in the study that reads, high carbohydrate intaking cats 189 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:56.720 therefore increases adverse digestive effects such as diarrhea, flatulence, and bloating. 190 00:09:57.080 --> 00:10:00.279 Smelly cat. What are they feeding you at carbs? It's 191 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.519 carbs kidneys plus carbs equals farts. I asked our philonology 192 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.759 guest doctor Michael Delgatto about this, and she said that 193 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:12.039 they do have a special taste receptor for a dentisine triphosphate, 194 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:15.720 which is basically a signal for meat. True killers. She says, 195 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:17.399 what about dogs. 196 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.840 Dogs are a little different. Dogs are much more Catholic 197 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:26.120 in their interests. And some people say they'll eat anything, 198 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:28.600 They'll just gobble it down, which is what it looks 199 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:32.000 like sometimes. But dogs have not lost their ability to 200 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.559 taste sweet. So I think if you go to most 201 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:37.159 dead foods and you look at what they actually made 202 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.360 out of, the ones for cats don't have anything that 203 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:43.080 would be resembling a sweetener. The ones for dogs have 204 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:45.639 carbohydrates that might be sweet. That's the one reason the 205 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:47.840 cat foods are more expensive than dog foods. I had no. 206 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:50.960 Idea, so yes, the two thousand and seven study cats 207 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:54.879 lack a sweet taste receptor says verbatim that dogs prefer 208 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.919 natural sugars, and overall, cats and dogs respond very differently 209 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:02.080 to sweet tasting stems, Although both species belong to the 210 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:07.559 order carnivora. So I'm sorry, cat people. Science has proven that, yes, 211 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:10.480 dogs are sweety peaties, but I'm not biased, all right. 212 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:12.840 You know, I wasn't planning on asking this, but as 213 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:14.559 long as I got you here. I have a tiny, 214 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:19.200 cutadorable daughter. She's a dog, and whenever she tastes something 215 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:21.480 that she's never tried before, like a tiny bit of 216 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:24.559 mango juice or maybe a little bit of a type 217 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:26.360 of ice cream, if we let her have a little taste, 218 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.559 she does this thing where she goes, mam mam mam, mamma, mammamo. 219 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.399 And it's only on new foods she's never tried, and 220 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:33.879 we have no idea what's going on. 221 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:35.480 She's testing it obviously. 222 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:37.759 Is she trying to get it into her up into 223 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:38.759 her snoot. 224 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:42.159 Well, she'd probably just that's her way of getting a 225 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:45.039 better sensory of response than on my other areas is 226 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.480 olive oil and there's this. It's like wine too. You 227 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:51.720 and the tasting, I mean, if you if you do that, 228 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.200 you're getting it. You're driving it more up. Actually that's 229 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:57.000 more old faction probably than taste. But you're driving up 230 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.200 to the old factory receptors and particularly it's something. Well, 231 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:05.720 it's very very wise for an animal, including humans, to 232 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.960 be it wary because the real world is really dangerous 233 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.080 from what you eat. Most things out in the real 234 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.399 world are poison or semi poison because they're defending themselves. 235 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:18.720 And so you know, people always complain about babies don't 236 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.559 like vegetables or whatever. Get that out of my sight. 237 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:23.919 But they're wise not to like them. They write it 238 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.200 first because all through revolution until you know how many 239 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:30.919 few hundred years, a few thousand years ago, that was 240 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:32.919 the real world, and one had to be very careful 241 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:34.039 when put it in the mouth. 242 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.480 And from what I understand, we lose taste buds as 243 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:41.000 we age. Is that correct? Can you walk me through 244 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:44.399 the minefield in your field that is taste buds? Like, 245 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:46.600 what are they doing? Who tastes what? What's going on? 246 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:51.639 Yeah? Well, so what you just said is controversial. 247 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.240 Yet best good good, correct us. 248 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.480 Well, many studies suggest there is a loss of taste buds. 249 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.080 Taste buds are these little bumps in your tongue and 250 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:02.399 just look at them in the mirror. Although the ones 251 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.360 who see that their taste and the ones that do 252 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:06.879 other things are very hard to tell. The difference certainly 253 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:10.879 in the mirror, but on those little buds are taste 254 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:15.679 receptor cells, and they respond to sweet, sour, salty, bitter, umami, 255 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:19.600 which is a amino acid, perhaps, and maybe a few 256 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:23.600 other things. The counts of those, like everything else with aging, 257 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:28.799 I have to say, which I'm doing, is is downhill. 258 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:33.480 But the evidence that older people really don't respond well 259 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.120 to tastes is very, very poor. And I would say 260 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:40.039 I have a story about this that is almost one 261 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.000 of my favorites and advows my father in law. So 262 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:45.360 my father in law was getting older. He was ninety 263 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.240 two years old, and my wife and I had to 264 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:50.639 take him and put him in a nursing home. Most 265 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:55.279 horrible thing. And so we got calls a little bit 266 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.679 later from the nursing home saying that he wasn't eating 267 00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:59.960 and they were worried about it, and we knew we 268 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.240 ate well. I fed him, and so I went to 269 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.039 the nursing home and spoke to people there and they said, yeah, 270 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:08.759 he just won't eat this food, and I said, well, 271 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.399 I'll try it. So I went in and to his 272 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.799 lunch and I started eating the food and it was terrible. 273 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:17.960 It was terrible, in a very specific way that I 274 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:22.759 think I was particularly able to discern, which was that 275 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:27.559 it was no salt whatsoever. No salt, and so one 276 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:29.720 of my real expertise is in salt. So I went 277 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:32.000 to the person who was in charge of the food 278 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:36.120 and she said, well, you know, salt causes hypertension. And 279 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:38.840 my response was, you know, this man is ninety two 280 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:42.759 years old, he has no high blood pressure problems whatsoever, 281 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:47.960 and I know that he loves salt. Please please put 282 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:48.759 it into the food. 283 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:52.039 So your health may vary, and ask your doctors about 284 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.679 how much salt is right for you, especially since some 285 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.080 studies have found that the older you get, the more 286 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:00.279 you might gravitate towards saltier foods. And according to this 287 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:04.200 twenty twenty two study out of Japan, older adults perception 288 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:08.480 of taste intensity increases slowly after they take a bite, 289 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.240 but it remains lower than that of young adults, so 290 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:13.720 it takes a minute before they're like okay, but it's 291 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.039 still lower than when you were younger. And this study 292 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.399 suggests that older adults savor and chew sufficiently during eating 293 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.039 to optimize their perceived salty taste. So give it a 294 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.399 good chew because it might take a second before it 295 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:29.600 tastes good. And I'm sorry. I have one million questions 296 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:31.919 for this man, and I want to move forward, but 297 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:34.639 something was nagging at me, so we got to go back. 298 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:37.039 And I want to circle back really quick, because I'm 299 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.480 dying to know when you were feeding sugar tooo lions? 300 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:41.799 What was going in the pan? Was it in a 301 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:44.360 cotton candy, jelly beans? What were you feeding them? 302 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:46.320 Now that's a great question because what we were feeding 303 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.840 them is what scientists do, which is not such a 304 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.960 great thing. We were feeding them sugar and water, So 305 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.679 we were giving sugar water or salt water or amino 306 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.440 acid water fast and a little bit tricky. So we 307 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.639 were trying to get a liquid fast that was in 308 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.759 the same kind of format at least. But it's a 309 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.879 real good question because when this paper was published and 310 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.559 we were on in PR a few times about this, 311 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:12.879 the claim was this is a long time ago. Now 312 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:15.679 I'm sure not true anymore. That they got more responses 313 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:20.399 to this particular issue almost anything else. We were getting 314 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.519 the people calling and saying, my cat loves ice cream, 315 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:25.159 my cat loves. 316 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:28.919 Cake, and there's so much fat in there. There's so 317 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:33.120 much fat. Absolutely you got it right right away. The 318 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:36.279 one problem I had was with marshmallows. 319 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:37.879 Oh yes, because. 320 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:40.919 To me that there's nothing much there but a structure 321 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:45.879 and sugar. And it turns out that one of the 322 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.639 one group of animals that have no interest in sweets 323 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.279 in the alligator crocodile family, And yet I've watched them 324 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.720 eat of marshmallows, and so I don't quite know what's 325 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.279 going on there. It's mystery. But for the most part 326 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:00.960 what you said is right. The ice cream, the cake, 327 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:04.799 those kinds of things are really the fat they're responding to. 328 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.119 I mean, if I were a big lizard looking beast 329 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:11.440 and someone threw something made out of horse gelatin that 330 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.559 looked like an egg at me, I think I'd be like, 331 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:14.960 I'll take another one of those. 332 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.200 Maybe your point maybe actually true that what they're responding 333 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.279 to is the visual signal, maybe not the sensory signal 334 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:23.640 at all, although the tactile thing may have something to 335 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.279 do with it as well. 336 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:27.599 Yeah, what about you personally? Do you have a sweet 337 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:29.640 tooth or a sweet taste bud? 338 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:33.319 Yeah? Sure, everybody does. I mean almost everybody does. In fact, 339 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.720 there's almost no evidence. There's some genetic evidence that we 340 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.519 differ a little bit in our responses to sweets, But 341 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:43.160 I would argue that it's the most profound, innate stimulation 342 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.480 that humans and many other species respond to. It. It's immediate, 343 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.839 it's right birth, it is before birth, it's working, and 344 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:54.039 we all have it almost so. I like sweets at 345 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.720 some certain circumstances. I'm not a big sweet fan. If 346 00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:58.720 I had to make a judgment between sweet and salt, 347 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.400 I'd usually go salty. Okay, But some people claim that 348 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.880 there's characteristically sweet lovers assault lovers, But the evidence is 349 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:09.000 I think it's more depending upon what they've been eating, 350 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.759 what they've recently had, and what they've had over their lifetimes. 351 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.480 We call this in my family the onion dip test. 352 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.319 Where would you rather have a piece of cake or 353 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:21.000 the onion dip? And my sister cannot fathom wanting the cake. 354 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.720 She's like, I would eat a whole bowl of onion 355 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.599 dip with a spoon before cake. And I'm wondering about 356 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:31.519 how we acclimate to certain tastes. If you put a 357 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:33.759 lot of sweetener in your coffee every day, chances are 358 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.680 you are used to that. But if you never have 359 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.039 your coffee sweet a little bit probably tastes like a lot. 360 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:43.799 So what's happening between receiving the chemicals from our taste 361 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.319 buds to our brain saying too much? Too little? 362 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.319 Okay, so you jumped one step ahead. 363 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:50.920 Oh okay, tell me what the middle steve is. 364 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.480 So the one step ahead you jumped is your assumption 365 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.880 that we like what we're used to or whatever is reasonable. 366 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.039 It's valid, and it's mostly true, but it's not so 367 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.599 clear that it's true. So I mean, you're asking questions 368 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.359 that are so much in my Bailey wick that I'm 369 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.839 not even too embarrassed to try to answer them. But 370 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.680 go back to salt. So, during the sixties and seventies, 371 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:19.000 there was real concern about consuming excess salt, and the 372 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.720 question was why do we do it? And I can 373 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:25.160 remember going to meetings and the poobahs of the blood 374 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:28.599 pressure group said, well, you just stop eating food with 375 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.720 salt in it. I did it. It was no problem. 376 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.440 But it is a problem. And the question is to 377 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:37.599 what degree do we come to like the amount of 378 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.799 salt we consume? What is it? And so we got 379 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:43.000 interested in this a long time ago, not even because 380 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:45.519 of the health reasons, but to see what effect it 381 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.200 would have if people who were eating, say normal levels 382 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.400 of salt, were put on a really low salt diet, 383 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.640 would they acclimate to that. The study was a very 384 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.720 small study at the time. We took students from the 385 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.240 Pennsylvania here and maybe not the average person, but that's 386 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:02.519 what we had. And part of the time we put 387 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.440 them in the hospital so we could really control what 388 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.319 they ate, and we lowered the amount of salt in 389 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.279 their foods. Sometimes we did it with people from outside too, 390 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.680 and we tested how much they like salty foods. Basically, 391 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.440 what we measured was if you were looking at say 392 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.759 a cookie or some sort of cracker. We got somebody 393 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:23.599 to manufacture the crackers with different levels of salt so 394 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:25.400 we can look to see which ones they liked best. 395 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:29.599 And we made soups and we were the world's largest 396 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.119 consumer at the time of Campbell's sort of vegetable soup 397 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.559 because nobody else would need it, and we used that 398 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.000 as the base, and we made levels of salt and 399 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:40.640 so we tested them beforehand before they went on low 400 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.880 salt diets. And what happened, of course, was that when 401 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.680