Speaker 1: We're all owned by the Syndicate body and soul or
should I just say bunny.
Speaker 2: Hello?
Speaker 3: Filthy movie lovers, something weirdos and anti Criterion bros To
the thirty eighth episode of the Sin Syndicate where men
come to be trodden underfoot and we always have this
in a higher heel. My name is Gentry Austen, writer
and researcher, and I'm here with my co host, adult
film historian Casey Scott. And in this week's episode, we
are joined by Jane Garrett, archivist, erotic historian and author
of John Willie A Bizarre Life, to talk about director
Joseph Marzano's nineteen sixty seven adaptation of Leopold von Socker
Masse's infamous novel about sexual enslavement and loving cruelty, Venus
in Furs.
Speaker 4: This is Marzano. You're a director and host, cordially inviting
the patrons of this theater to a weekend of fun
and games with Eleanora and Stephanie. Leopold von Sachelmassach wrote
Venus and Furs a hundred years ago, and from his
name evolved the word masochism, every meaning of that word,
every sensual dream He ever had is brought to vivid
life in this fascinating film inspired by his work. Any
man who has experienced the delicious pain of desire inflicted
by beautiful women will know the evil truth of venus
and furs.
Speaker 2: Can there be any greater or cruelty you're dreaming?
Speaker 1: So? It has always been since the times of Helen
and Delilah by Dantelo la Montez.
Speaker 4: If there is something you feel we left out in
our brief resume of weekend activities only inted out here,
do please let us know. The girls will we did
a light of to fulfilled and gratify your every expectation. Oh,
you're saving us in first shall destroy you at this
theater soon.
Speaker 5: Soon, so and so, so, so and so and so.
Speaker 3: But before we bring on Jane, we have a few
sexploitation news items and updates. Casey, should we start with
this top one here commentaries? You want to tease some more?
Speaker 6: I do well, because we've been We've been working hard
on these, curiously because it's a lot of research into Luckily, Yeah,
we won't say what the titles are. They are being
announced on May first, so you will hear about it
when this this episode comes out Wednesday. What day is
that the three? You'll hear about it a few days yeah, right,
So yeah, it's it's about there are films that we
there are films and filmmakers. Well we've covered the filmmakers
sort of, but there's other deep dives that we have
to do. So it's like a lot of research because obviously,
if you've listened to our previous commentaries for Sexploiters and
Raw Love, we like to cover every possible nook and
cranny of information that we can, and luckily, there's a
lot of really good nooks and cranny's about this these films.
Speaker 3: So yeah, kind of surprising too for as well known,
semi wrote well known as these are in the sexploitation field,
there's still a lot of inaccuracies out there with regard
to us, cast and crew.
Speaker 6: Yep, which we are trying to fix. I haven't decided
if I'm going to fix IMDb yeah, might let you
do that, but but yeah, I mean, it's it's it's interesting,
and we're trying to get them done as quickly as
possible because they're going to be announced with with them
being on there, so yeah, they will be done. Yeah, No,
I think I think that's good. A little tease for
those yep, gorgeous restorations will tell you that absolutely stunning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, we also have an update Alex Holmes
slipcase Alex correction from our Smoke and Flesh episode. He
is a big VHS collector, as we have mentioned. I
think we had said sort of an incorrect date with
regard to when those the Smoke and Flesh vhs came out.
So he's a collector, and he noticed you can kind
of tell a difference between what we're re releases and
sort of original based on the design on the back.
So yeah, I'm just going to quote him here. The
way to tell us from the design on the back
for Smoking Flesh it would have been issued from either
ninety four or ninety five, because the two copies that
are sold on eBay are both ninety six reissues. This
would also be the case for a copy of Caged Virgins,
which he also picked up, that was originally released in
ninety three, but he has the reissue copies, so I
have some examples in our show notes. Yeah, it's kind
of a cool little note here, just you can tell
the ninety two that you know those early ninety two
ninety three releases and then the ninety four ninety five
ninety six reissues. I'm sure Lisa was probably more closely
involved with those later ones.
Speaker 6: So yes, because she because she yes, probably except the ones,
the earlier ones. The design on those is good. And
that's something else that I would I would want to
ask her. It's like, who was doing the in house
designing before you got there, because that look, it didn't
change that much, but it changed enough that it became
more I don't know, more consistent across the board. Because
if you look at the ones from earlier that he has,
there's like they look pretty different in terms of fonts
and and other things, and then there's a consistency the
ones from ninety six. So I feel like that is
Lisa's doing where it's like, let's keep these consistent, let's
make these more collectible. I mean, she has that design background.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so exactly.
Speaker 6: I think it's definitely an improvement. But that's very interesting.
I think that's you know, and that just makes me
think that I think Lisa there is something weird press.
I know that that's something that she is looking into
do a book about this, Like for real like I
would love love to see the gradual changes over time
for the different box art, and then you know I
would eat that shit up.
Speaker 3: We've got another update here with another date date related
update here casey.
Speaker 6: Yes, which I only to further tease what we're working on.
I only figured this out because I had to do
research on the distribution, release vision user of this film. Anyway,
So we had mentioned the last episode talking about Smoking
Flesh how the openings were very similar between Acid Eaters
and Smoking Flesh, and I noted that, so Acid Eats
has that year sixty eight attached to it. It actually
did not come out in sixty eight. It came out
in October sixty seven, so it's much more of a
sixty seven film than a sixty eight film. So it
came out, you know, several months earlier than Smoking Flesh.
So it's possible that, you know, Mangene and co. Saw
Ascid Eaters and felt a little inspired by that one
to do. Yeah, very possible add elements to it.
Speaker 3: It's possible we really wanted to get into We could
see if it was screened in like Jersey or New York,
where it probably was.
Speaker 2: Jean would have seen it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, right, but I believe that it probably was.
You know, we have more updates on that too.
Speaker 2: Speaking of New Jersey, I know God.
Speaker 6: Loves Sean Langrick, So Sean Langrick is not just we've
already established that he's a New Jersey locations guy with
Francis Friday, where he really wanted to detail about those locations,
so he was able to pinpoint the locations where the
drug dealer and smoke and flesh all of the stuff
with him driving down the streets and things, or most
of this stuff was actually shot in Bloomfield, New Jersey,
specifically around Glenwood Avenue and Bloomfield Avenue. And then he
also found that that is where Mangeen lived at the time.
And he married his first wife in January nineteen sixty
eight in Bloomfield, New Jersey. Then they divorced in California
in seventy three, and that's when he married Adrian like
ten years later. And then we'd also talked about the
biker taking the tunnel into the city, and that kind
of implies that his journey in this film is more
or less geographically accurate because he's coming from Jersey into
New York, specifically into Greenwich Village, and he did confirm
that the location that I mentioned were, like, you know,
in the village.
Speaker 2: The PAS station.
Speaker 6: He confirmed that was accurate. And then there was another
building on Church Street which he also noted. So that
was good to know the New Jersey connection. And it's
interesting the more films from this area, from the New
York area that we're watching, I think the constant belief
in the fact that we're not they're not credited. Locations
aren't credited typically, So I was like, well, this is
a New York apartment, and that's not always the case.
Sometimes they're going to go to well, not even Manhattan.
It could be Queens, it could be Jersey, it could
be Long Island. I think we had a movie to
Coney Island too, So it just makes me think that
I need to be more like Sean and keep an
eye on these locations. But also Sean is like, there
is no there's no there's no one else like Sean.
So he's gonna notice these locations, and that's not locations
that just anybody who knows Jersey is gonna recognize.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when I saw that shop, right, I'm like, I
know Sean's on it.
Speaker 2: I don't even know. I don't even need to look
this up. He'll figure out where this is.
Speaker 6: Right, Like he's good about New York locations. I think
he also mentioned Florida and California is good too. But
then also Mike McCollum's good about that too. When we
have a vote update from Mike McCollum too, which will
go over as well. After we finished the Shawn updates,
because he gave us another good one. Actually he gave
us two additional good ones. Sean was really on the
case this.
Speaker 3: Yes, I love this one because it confirms what I
was trying to argue to you, which is that this
was not shot that the house in smoking flesh. It's
not like a walk up. It doesn't look like a
walk up to me. It's an actual Jersey you know.
I don't want to say suburban, maybe slightly suburban house
with multi levels which appears to be probably which makes
more sense Man Jean's house.
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, Well, because he confirmed that Joe Manjean, he
found an article from August sixty four which described him
as a high altitude photographer and skydiver. So the skydiving
connection to Ian Merrick, the production manager is right there,
and then they both connecting to Mayhon in that way
makes total sense. And then something we both missed was
the skydiving book on the bookshelf in the in the in.
Speaker 3: The apartment back and looked and I still couldn't see it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, like that's why I'm just like, I Sean is insane. Yeah,
Jesus Christ, thank God he's thank God he's he's using
his powers for good not evil. Yeah, like this is
this is some dangerous ship. But yeah, no, that was
very that was really good eagle eye viewing. So it's
just like, Okay, this definitely has to have been his house.
So then it was so then basically everyone who was
based in New York treked out to Bloomfield, New Jersey
and shot in Joe's house the interiors, and that also
makes sense because then there's the attic, which makes sense
that it's a house and not like even a townhouse
in the village, so that definitely makes sense. And that
kitchen is also, in hindsight, much more spacious than the
New York kitchen would be. So yeah, it's just yeah,
it's a lot of stuff that's kind of like, okay, it.
Speaker 3: Just yeah, I love it because it just clicked everything
into place once we got that kind of Bloomfield, New
Jersey connect that that confirmation.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we find we got a picture of him too,
which is great because he has there's a picture of
him in that sixty four article. Oh yes, you know,
in a in a plane, ready to take a picture.
So yeah, like that that was helpful too, and confirming
from that picture that he's not in this movie.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm yep. Another Sean Langer update here, Janet Banzett.
Speaker 6: That was interesting too because he said, I assume you
found this stuff and I was like, no, I have not,
so the I was like, no, Sean, believe it or not.
This is why when we mentioned in the last episode,
this is why we need more hands in the pie
and more people involved. This is why we need it's
it's a group project, not an individual gatekeep gate kept project.
This is why we need more people on this because
this is stuff that I missed, that you missed that
I think. I don't think Alex was aware of this either.
So it's like, yeah, people use different research methods and
Shawn's are filling in those blanks, and there's other people
that are doing the same thing. So apparently she had
a side career in newspaper syndication as a columnist for
a guy named Joseph Khalif who ran something called American
Feature Syndicate. And so she was there from roughly seventy
through seventy one up basically up until the time of
her death. And it makes sense because she showed up
in all these newspaper columns and little bits and little
blurbs about you know, how she was about town. She
had little roles and plays and things. And Sean noted
that Khalif was connected to a lot of those blurbs,
and so it makes sense then that they were connected
in another way, which was that he was employing her.
But the extent of the employment we're still not sure
about because he's unable to find any confirmation that these
things because her He found a bunch of articles that
her name is on. He can't find if they were
published anywhere or not, or if they were just available
to be published in syndication. So that's one of his
next things. He needs to research one of her last
column I think the last column that he could find
for her was dated for July thirty first, nineteen seventy one,
which is a couple of days after her death, so
very strange. But the real thing I'm excited about is
that she copyrighted a script she wrote called The Rocking
Horse Girl in January nineteen seventy. So to copyright a
script you have to deposit a copy of it with
the copyright office. So Jane Bans's script is on file
at the Copyright Office, and so I would love to
read a copy of that and know what the heck
she wrote and why she wrote it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in which copyright office? Do we know where this is?
Speaker 2: That we are?
Speaker 6: There is only one.
Speaker 2: That's what I was going to ask.
Speaker 6: Is there the United States Copyright Office? There are no
copyright offices per state, Gentry.
Speaker 2: There's you for this. I didn't copy.
Speaker 6: Wait you, but you don't know about copyright. I'll give you.
I'll give you a we'll I'll teach you about copy.
That's my passion. Yeah. No, the copyright office is the
United States Copyright Office. There's only one copyright office. So
that's where people deposit films, scripts, tapes of songs, everything that.
If you're registering something for copyright, you send it to Washington,
d C. So she did that for this, and uh,
I need I'd like to read it The Rocking Horse
Girl a year in, a year and a half before
she died, So I'd really like to know if she
was trying to sell it. Yeah, yeah, I want to
know if it was a script for theater or film,
because that there those scripts would be very different based
on you know, like direction and stuff in that script.
Speaker 2: And who knows how much of herself is in this script?
Speaker 6: You know? Yeah, I mean what if it's like autobiographical,
what if it's about a girl who came from Dallas
to New York? You know, I don't know. I'm fascinated.
I love the idea of this exploitation. Actress wrote something
called The Rocking Horse Girl and it's about a woman.
So I'm automatically interested, Like what does she have to
How is she writing women based on her experiences, you know,
so far in her life? Fascinating.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Mike McCollum's got something for us too. This is
the Angry Sky? Was this the Barry Mahon movie?
Speaker 6: Yeah? That was the one that Ian Merrick produced, and
there was like a premiere in sixty six and I
forget where it was now, but we talked about it
in that episode in that Smoking Flesh episode, and I
had mentioned I don't think it was released anywhere, because
I can't find any evidence of it. He found at
least a screening on television in Chicago in nineteen sixty seven,
which is like, really, yeah, I think because it was
I thought it was made sixty six or sixty seven,
But apparently it was a documentary about a man trying
to set a record for high altitude parachuting and he
was injured on his third attempt. So once again here
we have parachuting and skydiving and Ian Merrick was involved.
And then it makes me think, okay, was Myzano involved?
Probably because he was he was shooting, he was photographing
people doing skydiving, so that's likely that he was involved
with that as well.
Speaker 3: Also notes the play bands that went to Florida.
Speaker 2: What's this about? Watch the Birdie?
Speaker 1: She did?
Speaker 6: So she did a play in Florida, which I found
an article about. And the play that she went to
appear in was directed by Richard B. Shule, who was
in He was the star Watched the Birdie and then
he wrote Pamela, Pamela, you are for William Melrose and
then he copyrighted some things with William L. Rose as well,
so he was William a big collaborator with the Rose.
I feel like he also was involved with Renter Girl,
and he definitely did the story for Aroused, so he
was definitely he was involved with other sexploitation stuff. But
he was a very popular character actor before he died.
So the connections to sexploitation are obviously there because she
went to Florida and was directed, so, you know, directed
by this guy that I'm trying to think if she
did any films with him, but yeah, so that was
very That was interesting connection that they both went into
Florida to do that. And then the last McCollum win
was that he was researching the electronic I mentioned I
thought Sean was researching Jesse Elberger, and Mike confirmed that
he was the one researching the electronic Lover.
Speaker 3: So we will, yes, when we talked about possibly talking
possibly covering that later, yeah.
Speaker 6: Yes, which I still think we should. So then you know,
we'll we'll reach out to Mike and see what he
has found on that. I think because I didn't I
would never think that that was the guy's real name.
So yeah, I'm very interested to see what he found
for that guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I wonder if maybe that would be the
opportunity to dig into Natara.
Speaker 2: Maybe we could find something out.
Speaker 6: No, get that, No, that Diggan was, that Diggan has
been done. There's nothing defined. Yeah, there's nothing defined. I need.
We need a talent release form and we're not going
to get one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so to get a real name.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, folks, we need talent release forms. Yeah.
A lot of there's a lot of people who try
to do like reverse to find people. There's an entire
Facebook group that is based around doing a verse AI
and I'll tell you right now ninety percent of those
are inaccurate. So stop doing that. We need real, real names,
real dates of birth, real information. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that's that wraps up our news updates, which
is good timing. Here, I think we'll bring on Jane.
Speaker 6: Hello. Hello, it's nice to meet you.
Speaker 5: Nice to meet you too.
Speaker 2: We just wrapped up good timing.
Speaker 3: I think in my intro I kind of copied the
description you gave on the back of your book by
saying archivist, erotic historian and author. Maybe you can fill
in some blanks there.
Speaker 6: Sure.
Speaker 5: Yeah, my name's Jane Garrett and I am an archivist
and special collections librarian. I live in Washington State, and
I'm also the author of John Willie of Bizarre Life,
which is a biography of mid twentieth century bondage and
fetish artist and Bizarre magazine founder John Willy.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, where did you get your start in this research
in history?
Speaker 5: Well, it's really been kind of a lifelong interest of mine.
And as far as as far as becoming interested in
John Willy specifically, that started when I was a teenager.
One of my friends brought back that tashion set, the
Complete Bizarre, which was, you know, published in the nineties.
One of my friends brought that back from a trip
she had taken to visit some family in Germany. And
I at this time, you know, I think I was
about seventeen years old, sixteen, seventeen, somewhere in there, and
I'd never seen his work before. I was looking through
this book and I thought, oh my god, you know,
what is this. I can't believe this came out in
the forties and fifties. And so that was kind of
the start for me as far as becoming interested in
his work. And over the years, you know, I collected
issues of Bizarre and I collected his work and anything
that I could find about him. But the one thing
that was always missing was a biography.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: There were little things written, introductions to books or short articles,
but there was not a biography that had come out,
and that was something I always wanted to read. And
then one day I thought, you know, well, maybe I
could write a biography. I've always liked to write. I
was a writing major when I was an undergrad, so
that was just kind of something I decided to try
and see if I could do, and sure enough, it
came together. It was a lot of fun. It was
really really a privilege for me to write this book
and be able to do that kind of deep research
and share what I'd learned with other people.
Speaker 3: And I love that you've been doing like appearances and
readings and pairing them with like shows and stuff. You've
got one coming up, I think.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, that one coming up next week May second,
which is Saturday, and that's going to be in the Spokane,
Washington at a bookstore called Giant Nerd Books and they're
doing a fetish art show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe a lot of artists.
Speaker 5: They've they've already I guess selected the people that are
going to be in it. I'm so excited to see
all the artwork, and there's I'm going to do a
book talk and sign books and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: This is eventually going to tie back into our movie,
of course, but I'm I'm always curious, you know, how
the audience reception has been to this material and these shows, like,
you know, you've been in this scene for a while, like,
how have you seen it?
Speaker 2: You know, mold and change.
Speaker 5: Well, truthfully, I mean the first of all, the turnout
for everything has been fantastic, way beyond my expectations every time,
which has been really really cool. And just this the
huge variety of people that come out that are interested
in the different reasons that they're interested, getting getting to
talk to people and and you know, hear about their
interests and why they're there. It's just really interesting and exciting.
And recently I did a an intro for Satan and
High Heels, which I know you guys did an episode
few weeks ago, and yeah, and it was it was
there was a great turnout for that. I wasn't you know,
I wasn't really sure because sex Best, who was working
with they usually do hardcore, which is to see hardcore
on the big screen, and this was their first time
really doing kind of more of a sexploitation film, and
so I really it wasn't sure, you know. I thought,
I was the audience is going to like that or
are they not going to come out for this one?
But a lot of people came out for it and
seemed really interested. I gave it kind of a history
talk at the beginning, and folks were really engaged. So
that was a lot of fun.
Speaker 6: That's great. Yeah, I love that movie. Well, yeah, because
when we covered it, I remember that Gentry was kind
of like it wasn't as like it didn't have like
as much as much sex or like ties to fetish
as as much as he thought it would. But I
don't know, yeah, right, right exactly. You were kind of like,
this really could have gone this could have gone further.
But remembering that it was made in like between sixty
and sixty two, it's kind of like, what can we
get away with? You know? Yeah, right exactly, And then
you compare it to this movie and it's like they're
they're really testing a lot of waters with this one
where yeah, because it's it is because it's that by
this point at sixty seven, so we've had the Olga films,
We've had some of the Michael Finley films. It really
is sticking a lot to the East Coast, and so
this one, there are so many different fetishes in this
and so it feels like there's a little a little
something for everybody in this, which I think is what
makes it really interesting, and including like Homer erotic stuff,
which is very unusual for films at this time to
be including like the massage scene and things.
Speaker 2: Like that, and the weightlifting scene. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yes, I mean I love it obviously, but like I'm
not the audience for these movies, you know, so it's
kind of like I love it. I wonder what they
thought of it at the time. I've always wonder about that,
you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I know, Jane, when we were initially talking that,
we were like, we want to bring you want to
talk about something, and we're trying to find the right movie,
and so I think we initially suggested Olga, one of
the Olga films, and you did not love it. Tell
us a little bit about like your response to that,
you know.
Speaker 5: I'd watched I tried. I'd watched an Olga, the first
Olga movie before, and I remember thinking back on it.
I thought, I seem to remember I didn't really like
that that well for some reason, and I when I
went back to watch it the second time, I was like, oh, yeah,
I just I don't know what it is. I find it.
It's gonna sound bad, but I find it a little
bit boring. It wasn't really good.
Speaker 6: Wrong, Yeah, no, you're not wrong. That's a that's a
valid for sure.
Speaker 3: I could see, uh, the Olgas being a little bit
more if you compare it to what we're going to
talk about here Venus and first, like the Olgas are
a little cartoonish maybe in their depiction. I think this
is a little bit more like kind of darkly. I mean,
I think there's a touch of humor in this, but
I think it's a little bit more surreal and dark,
and I could see the appeal more.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love how stylish this venis and stylish yeah yeah, yeah.
Like you were saying about all the different fetishes, what
was cool I was noticing was even some kind of
old school fetishes that you don't often see represented, like
for example, there were a couple of instances where women
were wearing these very long white satin gowns, and satin
was a really popular fetish material for a long time,
both the skin but also before we had things like
latex or PBC where satin supplied that shine that is
such so appealing to a lot of people. So that
was something that I was kind of surprised to see
at this late date nineteen sixty seven, when we were
starting to have things like rubber attire and stuff like that,
not the rubber, but you know rubber tenures.
Speaker 6: Spetishwere Yeah, that is interesting. I didn't know that about
about satin because yeah, I mean that is something that
is that I'm not as familiar with. And so that's
why I absolutely do need your book. I'm more familiar with,
like with with gay fetishism. So like Samuel Stewart with
that book came out, I love that book. Yeah, and
that was a game changer and I was like and
when I was reading it, I was like, Okay, so
this is the gay side, Like what is the straight side? Like?
So I feel like John Willie, I need to be
familiar with John Willy and that we'll add that additional
context of like what was going on at the same time,
what was his background you know?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, John Willy was was heavy heterosexual in his
approach to to fetish, So yeah, that definitely is there.
Speaker 6: Okay, what do you waste his sweat on that broad, Davie?
Speaker 5: That type didn't never buy.
Speaker 6: Oh, I don't mind, you're too nice.
Speaker 4: I kind of like to take advantage they might to
see a guy called on a floors. Hey, hey, louis
having that redhead I waited on last night?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, the big one. Yeah, they're what a hard
time she gave me. You should have seen it. Ans
I got a ome there.
Speaker 5: You don't know, I don't handle him.
Speaker 6: Let me clearly you, Davy, I'll see you later.
Speaker 2: Should we talk about the release history really quick?
Speaker 6: Casey? Yeah, well, I did want to start with the trailer.
The director Joseph Marzano hosts the trailer, so it has
that personal touch where he's like that he terry. He
hosts the trailer and opens it with like, this is Marzano,
your director and host, and it's kind of like he's
welcoming you to like this is the circus, Like this
is the welcome to our show. Like we're going to
show you all these amazing things, and it just definitely
ties into, like I think you'd mentioned in the notes,
how it feels a little personal for him and some
of this stuff he casts himself in certain sequences. There's
there's in like a submissive role for most of most
of the time he's in there. So it definitely makes
me wonder. But it definitely has that tie of the
personal because not a lot of directors were doing that
like russ Meyer would do it. Now actually russ Meyer
never did it. Russ Meyer had stand ins to do it,
but yeah, a lot of directors they were not as
involved with hosting the trailers for their movies.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I love that introduction where he's like, this is Marzano
because it made me think, you know, we never got
like a series of Marzano films where we he could
have created this persona character for himself, but we never
got that because he as we'll go into we'll learn
his his what happened after this?
Speaker 2: But where did this premiere? Hear in my town?
Speaker 6: It did it premiered in your town? Except New York
wanted people to believe it was premiering in New York,
which is not the case. So it's interesting because we
were doing research on for other commentaries we're doing, and
Minneapolis was like a go to premiere town for a
lot of exploitation, which I don't know if you knew that, gentry,
but these movies were premiering in your backyard.
Speaker 3: Well, I know Friedman ya had a connection with that theater,
so he helped get some stuff. But this, yeah, wasn't
Friedman related.
Speaker 6: No, this one was Novak, which we've Yeah, we've we've
talked a lot about Novak on here, and I don't
think we need to cover him that much on this
because you don't need to get me started. I'll put
it that way. You don't need to know. We're gonna
keep the vibes positive. I don't need to talk about
what a sleeve's Novac was. But Yeah, premiered with Wonderful
World of Girls, which was way older and totally different
and a color movie in Minneapolis. Yeah, but the world premiere,
which happened three days later, was Monday, July tenth, and
that premiered simultaneously the T Valley in Manhattan and The
Sin Aren't in Brooklyn, and they premiered it premiered pair
with two different movies. So Manda Bizarro again a color
movie at the t V Lee in Manhattan, and then
kiss Me Nicely, which I think has Kissed Me Quick
at the Sinnart. So you have this movie that's coming out,
which is a very forward, it's a very sexually forward
black and white film com paired with two very different
older color films on the B side. So I thought
that was really strange. I don't know if maybe the
programming thought was they were like palette cleansers or something
after kind of being in this black and white world
that is very different. But I found that programming very
unusual that they would pair it with color films from like,
you know, three years previously and kiss Me quickscase.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think black and white still had this
sort of a certain cachet with audience members who kind
of knew what they were going to get with a
black and white roughy, nudy, and I think it had
an audience that wanted to see that. I know we
always talk about like, well, when color came in, black
and whites were dead, but obviously it wasn't instantaneous.
Speaker 6: No, Well, Hollywood is the same way. I mean, there
were still Hollywood was still doing color films, wide screen films,
but also you know, black and white films that were
more edgy or gritty or like urban urban city stories.
So it makes sense that a lot of the New
York film stayed black and white and they really felt
like the Naked City sort of kind of kind of visuals.
But also strange that this was distributed nationwide by a
California distributor, which was Novak, so he didn't distribute that
many New York films. And the fact that he went
back to the well for the same producer for three
movies is very unusual because he really didn't do that
that frequently. So something about lu Campa he was he
wanted to be in the lu Caampa business at least
three times and before he bailed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And speaking of Yeah lu Campa, this was paired
with Mini Skirt Love, Cool It Baby, a Depraved Desires
triple feature on DVD. I think that's probably one of
the best image something Weird releases they ever did.
Speaker 2: But I like these movies. I know some people don't.
What do you think, Casey?
Speaker 6: I agree They're so different too. I mean Mini'skirt Love
is basically like NonStop incests essentially. You know, it's like, yeah,
it's it's it's it's much easier than this. That's for sure.
Much his aunt and uh, it's his aunt, but the
aunt also has affection for her sister, and so yeah,
it's very weird and cool. A baby is very like
crime syndicate, kind of noir ish thing about like a
blackmail story. Yeah, so Venus and First is definitely the
art the art one here, like we're it's there's a
lot more style. There's a lot more Yeah, this I
mean style is it's style of the capital s I
think is Venus and First. And that's why it works,
I think is because he's really interested in telling this story.
Well there's very little story, but he's very interested in
kind of building this visual tapestry for the audience. What
I think is really interesting.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking at these ad mats and you know,
I wanted to ask you, Jane, how familiar do you
think audience members were to this story? Did they immediately
know what this movie was going to be about when
you advertise Venus and First?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I think within kind of the existing
fetish community, probably you know, the Venus in first was
first translated into English my understanding in nineteen oh two
in a very small, privately printed edition which came out
of Paris. And then there was a second English translation
in nineteen twenty one, and both of these both of
those translations were like not great translations. Apparently, it wasn't
until nineteen sixty five that there was the first English
unexpurgated edition, and that came out of London through luxore Press.
Speaker 3: Okay, so it's pretty fresh. Then, that's sixteen, pretty that.
Speaker 5: Right now, that that was England, but you know, this
was Luxar Press specialized in erotica. They had also brought out,
you know, a copy of Memoirs of a Lady of Pleasure,
Fanny Hill and some of these other heavily banned books,
and also, you know, and around this time in the
United States also there were a lot of a lot
of court cases, a lot of Supreme Court cases surrounding
different books and are they obscene? I'm not aware of
any cases highlighting Venus and Firs specifically, And I actually
don't know when the first American edition ended up finally
coming out, but the fact that this English, this British
edition came out in nineteen sixty five. I think that
was probably a big part of the reason why Gentry.
As you pointed out, there were like a lot of
different movies versions of Venus and first made right around
this late nineteen sixties.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very strange. They're also close together.
It's not like a Fanny Hill where you got a
Fanny Hill in sixty four and in sixty eight and
then yeah, like there at least there's at least some
years between that. But this is kind of like, oh,
we need to we need to hit while this is hot,
and so now that it's finally available, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you haven't seen that barb that Barber Steel short,
I think it's on one of those releases, some seven release,
but yeah, I think that was one of the earliest.
And it's just a short of her sort of you know,
draping herself and for and then they read some passages
from the novel. But yeah, right after that, then you
get this one, and then you get the Franco one
and the Massimo Dolomano one. Any thoughts on those casey,
I know.
Speaker 6: Have you seen them? Have you seen those? Jane or No?
Speaker 1: I have not.
Speaker 6: No, Okay, so the Franco One is great. I love
the Franco One. The soundtrack is good. It's a really
good role for Maria Rome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 6: It's like, yeah, it's really kind of I mean, it
turns and transfer into like a horror narrative where it's
and it's kind of like, I don't know, it's like
an avenging Angel movie where like this woman who was
murdered by a group of people miraculously re emerges and
starts taking out these people one by one, kind of
like the Bridewoar Black, if she was avenging her own
death and not her husband's. Sort of it's similar to that.
I love that movie. I have not seen the Dalomno version,
but I remember seeing a trailer for like a nineteen
seventy six reissue that made it look wildly different than
I think it's supposed to be, because they edited the
trailer to make it look much more erotically charged than
I think it actually is. Well, I think it was
called Devil in the Flesh is how they really Yeah,
that's a really good trailer, but I know when I
looked it up, I was like, oh, this is from
nineteen sixty nine, don't. I don't think it's I don't
think it's as tantalizing as this trailer makes it look.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not.
Speaker 3: It's Yeah, it's very stylish. I think it's it's more
accurate to the novel than obviously Franco's is, and this
one Marzano's is, and as Laura Antonelli as Wanda, which
is okay, I know, Casey, I'm not a big It's
a very sixty nine year old erotica update on Venus,
and first I think it's pretty fun. Yeah, interesting, But yeah,
I haven't I don't know anything about these other later adaptations.
There's a looks like Scandinavian version that I've heard is
accurate from ninety four ish, and then a Korean one
from twenty twelve. Yeah, I'm surprised, you know, with that
whole like Korean horror boom, there could have been like
a really good maybe this is I don't know, this
is twenty twelve. I guess I'll have to seek it
out at some point. Maybe they do like a horror
adaptation like Franco. Yeah, Franco's is such a horror movie.
Franco's is not it's barely even a venus and first movie's.
Speaker 6: Let's Franco for you. Franco was better at De Sad.
And that's the interesting thing. It's like, it's very interesting
that we have all these venus and first adaptations. I mean,
Dasad was I think much more popular in terms of
adaptations because his name equaled like depravity or whatever, and
it was, you know, pushing the boundaries of sexuality.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, yeah, on that note, Yeah, Jane, you
had said that you didn't hear of any censorship issues
with Leopold's book, and I think because it's not that smutty,
you know, I've it's short, I've read it. It's I
don't know, maybe I expected more, but yeah, it's more psychological.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't you say yeah?
Speaker 5: And I would also say that, you know, there's not
a lot of examples at this time, at this kind
of mid twentieth century period of bondage and fetish material
coming to court for us. I mean, obviously things were happening,
like things are happening to Irving Law, things were happening
to some of the other publishers. But you know, one
of the reasons that the fetish industry grew so quickly.
Was just the fact that this material is legal. You know,
you can't arrest somebody for having a pair of high
heeled shoes, for example, And so that could be part
of the reason too why the book was kind of
Ye are a few different reasons. One, there's no you know,
it's not being published in the US. It's you know,
BDSM related, and as you say, it's more kind of
a psychological m h.
Speaker 3: And it's and it's a headal romance. I mean it's
it's sort of a romance. So yeah, what would they
would they try to punish it for you?
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't even imagine.
Speaker 3: But that's a good point that you made about like
fetish material is inherently like it's everyday objects, you know, sexualized, right, Yeah, yeah,
more or I need to read this.
Speaker 6: I haven't read this. I should have read it in preparation,
but I didn't. I should have. You know, it's funny
because yeah, I've seen this version, and I've seen the
Franco version. I never thought to read that book, unlike
the Dussod's, like Dasade, I've read philosophy in the Boudoir
and Justine. I mean they're very long, but.
Speaker 2: I know you've read those.
Speaker 6: Yeah no, yeah, no, I remember buying the Borders books.
That's how long ago I bought those. That's how long
ago I bought the Dusods. There was a nice collection,
and I was mortified by them. I was like, oh
my god, Okay, they really went light in the film,
very since because you can't there's a lot of stuff
you can't shoot that's in the Dassod's books. So I'm intrigued. Yeah,
so I'm intrigued to apparently there aren't a lot of
faithful adaptations of this book, and so it made me think,
is it unfilmable? But it doesn't sound It sounds like
if it's a lot of it is psychological, or a
lot of it is. I mean a lot of books
are like that, where it's it's not about dialogue and character.
It's kind of about like, you know, creating a mood
and things like that, and that can't necessarily be translated
to a film by I mean, I.
Speaker 3: Think it is more or less filmable. I mean the
Dolomano version he just hides. I think the big thing
is he hides a lot of the whipping behind objects,
you know, like a man will be he'll be whipped
seven will be getting whipped behind like a futon or something.
You don't really see all of it, but I mean
you can do that nowadays.
Speaker 2: You could have done that. You can do that in uh,
you know sixty seven.
Speaker 6: With this version, well, it makes me think of like
other books kind of like what is it the Man
and Has Made which became not a Victorians, which that
was like a big that was a big thing that
was published under the counter.
Speaker 2: They made into that hardcore movie, right they did.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's kind of how you had to do it.
And I think the image is based on a book too,
the Radley Metscer movie. The image I think that's based
on a French book too. So like there are definitely
other other, you know, works of literature that have been
translated into like really rough films. So it's just interesting
that the versions of Bennie Furs that I've watched are
not rough really, and so it's just it doesn't make
me wonder like how rough is the book? But yeah,
it doesn't sound like it was saying, you know.
Speaker 5: I've never had an out of blasshes.
Speaker 6: You fick Madre.
Speaker 1: Hurry. Uh.
Speaker 3: What do you think about this as an adaptation, Jane, Like,
what do you think they were going for here?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean the movie barely has anything this this
version barely has anything at all to do with the book.
I think it was kind of more of a a
the choosing that, even as the title is kind of
more of like a catch all term or more of
a trying to reel in somebody if you like this,
then I know you'll like, you know what we're what
we're creating here. So yeah, so that was kind of interesting.
But certainly, I mean, you know, the elements that remained
the same, things like, you know, the main character being
a submissive man and that.
Speaker 6: Kind of thing. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that this version has a lot
of foot fetish material.
Speaker 5: I was gonna say I loved that instead of focusing
so much on the fur aspect, they really brought what
was a very current and very popular fetish with the
mid twentieth century, which is foot fetishism and you know,
stockings and extreme high heels, bigging and you know, and
the fact that he's a shoe salesman and we get
the great, the great scene and the shoe store. I
just love that scene so much. Real yeah, around and
all the women are. It looked like something straight out
of like an Eric Stanton comic or something. It was
really cool.
Speaker 2: Casey, where was that shoe store? Did we identify that?
Speaker 6: Yeah? Well, the interesting thing is so Capezzio. You see
the sign Capezio, and that was a real shoe store.
But part of me wonders if it was a set.
I mean, that's the weird thing about the photography in
this movie. It is shot with like one light and
so it looks like everything is pitch black darkness at
night except for the one light that's focusing and everything.
So I don't know if they shot it at the
Capezio store in the middle of the night when it
was closed, or if that was just a set to
made up to look like a Capezio store. Well you
can see the boxes of shoes, So I'm just like,
that seems like a lot if they're they're gonna make
up a shoe store set. So I was googling Capeggio
and I think.
Speaker 5: Like, I'm shocked so that they were. I was surprised
when I saw it.
Speaker 6: I was very surprised. I was like, Oh, this is
a this is a, this is a place. At first
I thought I was made up, you know, because but
then I thought, well, no, they like to lease, they
can use a location. They'll definitely do it in New York.
And so at first I thought it was the Flagship Store,
which is in Manhattan, and I was like, I was
looking at the street and everything. I was like, this
doesn't look like this doesn't look like the Manhattan location.
So I think it's the Long Island location in Rockville
Center because that's where Marzana was originally from. So I
think he took everybody to Long Island, and I think
that is probably there's a house on Long Island where
I was shot, which that kind of makes sense to me.
But yeah, so I believe he took everyone to Long
Island and shot at the shoe store, maybe after dark,
like he shot the exterior of him coming in during
the day and then at night. I think he shot
the stuff at night. Probably.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm always jealous of you know you New Yorker
because you always see locations that you've probably been to,
like the New York Public Library, Have you been there?
Speaker 6: I meet I meet people all the time at Bryant
Park from meetings like I met Gerard Domiano there. The
last time I saw him Junior was at Bryant Park
and yeah, right around the corner NYPL. Yeah, and it's
so crazy how that location really hasn't changed that much.
Like there's some some locations changed like crazy in New
York obviously because the city changes in morphs and things.
But yeah, the NYPL Classic won't change. So I love
seeing it. And I think I can't believe that they
had the the brass ones to shoot at this location outdoors,
Like you know, there's a story where there's a story
where you know, they brought those they brought the women
to run towards him. It's like part of a fantasy
that he that he has of all these women. It
was supposed to be way more women than it was,
so it's not as impactful because it's what like four
or five women, So like, oh, just a lot of
women leave in the library. He wanted it to be
like a cavalcade of women, Yeah, a horde of women.
And apparently there's a sequence at the end in the
montage you can see one of them, one of the
women is straddling the lion. Yeah, and he shot that
sequence and apparently there was like a cop there and
they just shot it in front of the cop and
the cop didn't do anything. The cop was just kind
of like, Oh, this is really crazy, this this girl
and like, you know, her her bron panties on top
of the lion. I was like, that's nineteen sixty six, sixty.
Speaker 2: Seven, they create that photo.
Speaker 6: That's the Lindsay era. That's the that's the Lindsay mayor
may oiel. Yeah, that's that's what it was like to
be in New York when Lindsay was the mayor. Yeah,
you could do whatever you wanted. That was around the
time that the film commission was set up. I think
I think that was a Lindsay thing so before I
think that's before they started to be more you had
to get like you know, permits and stuff through the
film commission. I remember there's one exploctation we were at
the end of the movie it thanks Mayor Lindsay or like,
and I'm just like, that is crazy. Look, I know
you didn't get permits to shoot this, so it really
feels like a slap in the face of Mayor Lindsay, like, yeah,
we shot in your city, thank you for letting us yeah,
and there's some other locations too in the subways like
that too. Actually, it looks like it was shot on
like an abandoned car, abandoned subway car in the middle
of the night, and it's like that single light and
it kind of adds to that dreamlike effect. Though it's like,
is this actually happening? It just seems like this is
a part of a fantasy because it's not. In case,
it was right exactly, so it's yeah, it's really The
style in this movie is so interesting.
Speaker 2: But that's what I like too, you know.
Speaker 3: It introduces that aspect where it's like, well, this this
part of it, this was a fantasy at the beginning,
and then everything happens afterwards and you're kind of like, wait,
was this real too or not?
Speaker 2: Because it's all shot the same so it keeps it consistent. Yeah,
it's very surreal.
Speaker 3: I bet that subway scene they just like went to
the far back and they just like found a car
that was unoccupied, just like, all right, let's shoot this
real quick.
Speaker 6: I believe that.
Speaker 5: I love that subway scene and the part where when
they're walking up the steps and he leans down and
bites that woman's ankle. I just so well. I just thought,
you know, even if you're not a foot fetishes, even
if you don't care about feet and shoes, it's like,
how can you not look at the scene and not
be like that is a pretty sexy moment right there.
Speaker 6: I agree, I'm the most boring vanilla person on the planet,
but there is stuff that is fetish stuff in movies,
and I'm just like, God, that looks great, got so
yeah yeah. And then that's when it's like, you know,
I get it, I get it. I understand the communities
and the appeal and everything. It's just like it just
won't click in my head for me to actively do
it myself. But seeing it the way that it's captured
cinematically is like, this is great. I totally understand the
appeal of this. Yeah, when it's done well, it really
it really captures that appeal really well. And that sequence
is great. Yeah, it's just kind of like, okay, yeah,
I get it. That's really great. Well.
Speaker 3: Maybe that's like the question here with Marzano, like I
wonder how much of this was a personal fetish thing
or he's just appealing to a certain market.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 5: I feel a lot of love put into it at
the very least. You know, I don't like to speculator
about people's you know, personal right.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 5: There was there was a lot of care put into
this movie, and I really appreciated that aspect of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think looking at the history of how this
was made, I think we can see that he maybe
felt like this was his shot. He's going to put
as much on on screen as he can, and that's
what we got.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Marzano here.
Speaker 6: Very interesting character, very strange, very strange character, and not
just yeah, I mean strange, and that he was a
very I think you can kind of tell that he
is a very interesting and unique artist from this film.
And so I think when you're that kind of person
that has a very distinctive point of view and a
very distinctive way you want films to be done, kind
of like and not comparing them at all equally, but
kind of like an Orson Wells, where it's someone who's like,
this is how I want it, this is the way
I want to do it.
Speaker 2: I've seen that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So it's kind of like that when you're dealing
with somebody who has a distinctive point of view and
a distinctive voice and they want to do something, but
then it also makes it very difficult for them to
work with well with others. And that was kind of
Marzano's problem, is that he couldn't really worked that well
with others. But he made so many different short films
and things over the years, which I don't know where
they went, which is very frustrating because so Barbara Ellen,
the star of this. The first thing she ever did
was a short called Barbara which Joseph Marzano did, which
is an experimental short which is all just photos of
her in different poses, and it's like a love letter
to Barbara Ellen. And I'm dying to see that because
I love Barbara Ellen, you know, I'm just like I
want it. And I was nineteen sixty three, so it
was like four years before this, So she was with
him for a while doing stuff for him, and there
must have been something about him that she trusted to
stay with him through all these different projects, because she
was with him before he started doing sexploitation, so she
must have trusted him to be like, sure, I'll follow
you into sexploitation for cool at Baby and Venus and furs.
And then she did movies with him after, so it
wasn't a breaking point for their relationship.
Speaker 3: That's the weirdest part of the Marzano story to me
is her involvement, you know, in helping script this and
you know, like you said, following him on a couple
of projects, because you know, we hear all these stories
about him from friends and co workers, and they do
not have great things to say about him.
Speaker 6: The crews don't have the good stuff to say. I
think that's the issue. Yeah, I think his his but
his actors they followed him over the course of his
entire career. They stayed with him. So something about his
work with the actors they trusted him. Something about the
cruise They found him very difficult, And I wonder if
it's because he wasn't really able to when you have
that many ideas and you're that creative, he might have
just had a problem being able to express those so
Cruise could help him bring those to life. That might
have been the problem, you know, it might have been
a communication issue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 6: But he worked very well with Lou Waldeck, who was
the guy he worked with on Coola Baby, and he
wanted him to shoot this, and he was already shooting
something else, so he had to get George Cirello. I
believe it was the cinematographer who we work with on
a few other things. Waldeck great, but I think the
photography in this didn't need to be Waldeck. I think
Sorella does a really good job. But Waldeck, even after
he left Exploitation, continued working with him in his independent films.
So yeah, he made good connections with people. I think
it was just I think the people who were in
charge of things in terms of like financing and distribution,
they did not get along with him. So you know,
you kind of have to deal with these very difficult
egomaniacs in production and distribution, and when you have an
ego like him, but he can back as ego up
these other people in the film business. You know, they
have money and the money is the ego.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll have to get Jane Cool at Baby. I
think she might like that one. It's a little cool.
The Baby's not bad cool here, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: I seen that one yet, Yeah.
Speaker 6: It's not bad. I would think Mini Skirt Love. I
prefer Mini Skirt Love just because well that stars Janet Bansa,
who is one of the one of the doms in
this She so she has she She's in Miniskirt Love.
She plays an aunt took home to take care of
her nephew and they fall in love and then yeah,
I mean she's a little young to be playing that part,
but uh and cool at baby. Yeah, it's like it's
like a big blackmail story with Barbara Ellen is a
blackmail victim of uh yeah, this guy who's in the syndicate. Yeah,
she's good in it, of course.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: What did you think about the lead Barbara Allen in
this Jane? I mean, she doesn't get I think it
was noted in a story as well that she refused
to do nudity. But you know, when I think back
at the film, I'm like, oh, I had to think
about it.
Speaker 2: Wait, did she get nude or not?
Speaker 3: But she doesn't, but she's it's risky enough where you
kind of think she did, you know, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Well yeah, I mean there were so many parts of
this movie where I was like surprised by how much
how far they were going through nineteen sixty seven kind of.
But yeah, I really liked her. I liked everybody in
this everybody seemed, you know, which was nice.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that well, Barbara. The thing about Barbi, yeah, I
guess I forgot she didn't ununity either. I think because
she is so captivating as a lead that I'm I
actually kind of wasn't even expecting her to dimunity because
the fact that he was so enamored of her was like, yeah,
I get it, like she's yes, she's great. I would
I would get in her cargo wherever she wanted to, like,
you know, I you know, and I yeah, yeah, I
think he casts very well. But also the fact that
she that she wrote it or helped him write it,
meant that she helped to create this character, that she
knew that she could do what she wanted with this character, so.
Speaker 2: She can call the shots a bit.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, so she knew I don't have to do
nunity because there's gonna be other people to do that.
I will just say the central figure that is his obsession,
and that's perfectly fine, you know.
Speaker 5: Which, and truthfully, being kind of like the dominant figure there,
it's better that she's that she's not being nude, you know.
It kind of adds a little something to the character too.
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, he does more disrobing than she does,
like you know, he really is flipped, And I'm like, great,
yeah I was, we'll go into it. But I was
researching this guy and I found him and he died
a couple of years ago during COVID at ninety one
years old. A competitive bodybuilder competed in Mister Universe. Shep Wild,
Yes he has. Apparently he told stories about making movies
to his his friends and family, and I'm just like,
where was I? So I need to reach out to
his family, his family and see. Also, he apparently was
a very popular model at like like around New York,
so that I think you're talking about, yes, but also
photography clubs. So then I'm kind of like, Okay, well
where are the photos of him? Because it's I can't
find any photos of him at least under that under
his real name. So I'm like, did he work with
any of the New York based like fetish photographers that
I know of?
Speaker 1: That?
Speaker 6: Like, I think Tashin's released a bunch of those two.
So now I need to go look in all those
books that I have in my on my bookshelf and
see if I can spotsheit Wild maybe Oh sure, yes,
I mean I look through them anyway, but yeah, any
reason to go back then, sure, but he was older
when he did this. He and Bella Donna, who is
also in this movie. She so, Bella Donna is the
actress that's straddling the lion, and she's a little older.
She's also one of the doms in this too with
Janet Bansit. So she was born in nineteen twenty four,
so in this movie she's forty three years old. And
she was very into like health foods and alternative medicine,
so she doesn't look forty three like she She's able
to run with these twenty year olds and have fun,
and she was very She's very popular with director named
Joe Sarno, so I was able to find her. Unfortunately
she passed away. But she was like a She was
a model in Hollywood, Like she went out on dates
with like Rock Hudson and stuff in the fifties before
she came out to New York to do sexploitation. And
I actually just emailed her daughter before we started recording,
and I was like, I want to know about Wait,
your mom's modeling.
Speaker 2: Are you saying she was a beard to Rock Hudson?
Speaker 6: Yes, but she also dated some other people. I'm trying
to remember now because there was a So she's originally
from Dayton, Ohio, and she relocated to New York and
then in nineteen eighty one she relocated at Dateton, Ohio.
And there's an interview she said she did lots of
studio publicity stuff with the likes of Tony Curtis and
Rock Hudson, and then she came to New York and
she modeled for twenty years, and there's no mention of
the films in there, but you know, that's kind of
what she did. So she came back to Daton, Ohio
and worked at a natural a natural food place before
she died in twenty thirteen. But yeah, I emailed her
daughter and I was like, I'd like to know about
your mom's modeling, And yeah, I left it at that
because when you were reaching out to family members and
family members might not know that that included films. So
I just wanted to know about the modeling. So we'll
see where that goes.
Speaker 3: So shep Wilde was a like a rot. Was it
like erotic stuff? Do you think is modeling work?
Speaker 6: I mean, if it was, if he was like a
regular bodybuilder, like he competed for Mister Universe, he competed
for oh gosh, what else, mister Eastern North America. He
was in the army. He was also a professional massage
therapists and he was like a go to physical physical
director to the stars. Because I found an advertisement in
nineteen fifty seven Billboard which has massage, reduce and relax
scientific treatment in his real name in New York. So
when he's doing that massage in the film, yeah, that's
what he did. Yeah. So when he wasn't, when he
wasn't doing modeling work for photography and artists and stuff
like that, he was a very popular massure for people apparently.
So his obituary is interesting. So the last line of
the obituary that his family put together Joe lived, his
name was Joe Joe koit Tila was his real name.
Born in nineteen twenty nine, So again he is thirty
nine when he did this, thirty eight, so a little older.
For this film says Joe lived a full and interesting
life for which he loved to tell stories about. He
loved a joke and make people laugh. He was always positive.
Joe never complained about anything, not even when he should have.
And then his in laws commented in this obituary and said,
Joe was a positive and kind man. We enjoyed his company,
his stories of the past, his passion for fitness, and
his voracious appetite. He always talked about his acting career,
his love for Marily Minuro, Frank Sinatra, and the celebrities
he met as a masseuse. He will be sorely missed.
So let's sweet massage marily Monroe and Frank Sinatra and
other people. But his acting career, this is his acting career.
You know he did this. He was in too, Joe
Sarno movie. He was in Flying Now Pay Later, So
maybe he knew the directed that. We're trying to figure
that out, Gentry.
Speaker 3: I think he actually talks in that. I think he's
just the man in the dream, right, yeah, just in
the clouds.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but he's in it. So it sounds like you
remembered stuff. So I need to reach out to the
kids to see. Yeah, if he talked that much, then
they have probably have stories they could share. Because I'm
obsessed with himous for obviously.
Speaker 3: I mean even as a even as a straight man.
I want to see his early photos just to see
too how they were set up. Like I mean, Jane,
what was what would be the market for back then?
What was out there for? Like, you know, if a
guy wanted to see shep wild, you know, shirtless in
a you know, a magazine, where would you find that?
Speaker 5: I mean there were a lot of bodybuilder magazines.
Speaker 3: It would be marketed for like it would be marketed
as a bodybuilding magazine, but it would be yeah, understood
that it was marketed also for like the gay community.
Speaker 6: Right exactly, Yeah, it's coded yeah.
Speaker 5: Exactly. And then you know also I think obviously I
think Casey could speak more on this, but you know,
in the nineteen fifties there were some gay magazines that
were brought before the Supreme Court for obscenity. In the
most famous case would be One magazine, which is kind
of seen as as I don't know, is it the
first casey or one of the first homo file?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, homo file was the word they liked to
use too. Yeah, it was like, yeah, it was very
that and I think it was that was the first
case of its type. I think they were trying to
make an example of it, and they won the case.
I mean they.
Speaker 5: This is not obscene. This can go through the mail,
it can retain its mailing privileges and all of that.
So you know, now one magazines, the issues that I've
seen don't have you know, sexy photos inside of them
of bodybuilders. But yeah, that's just kind of another example
of the kind of material that was out there for
FORK And then we're also some lesbian magazines as well,
but yeah, that's the type of material that was.
Speaker 6: In Yeah, the big one I know that is Bob Meser,
but that there are so many more other than Bob Meser.
I mean, Bob Meser was Athletic Model Guild, but there
were New York photographers, there were Florida photographer. It was
kind of like exploitation. They had them, They had you
had photographers in all the major metro areas, not just Hollywood.
But that's and that's why I'm kind of that's why
I'm dying to talk to his kids because I'm like,
and also googling that very specific name, it doesn't come
up with a lot. So I'm just like, is this
an undiscovered gem that like the bodybuilding fetish community doesn't
even know about? Like if there's photos, I know a
lot of men that would want to see them. So
maybe it's time to get on that trying to you know.
Speaker 2: I bet you'll be able if you can find photos.
Speaker 3: I bet there will be one with him in that
same Tarzan underwear.
Speaker 2: I bet I bet that was in his uh, in
his real rotation.
Speaker 6: We can also, I hope so yes, I hope that
he that was part of his personal wardrobe. Yeah, so yeah,
he just took it with him every where he went.
Speaker 7: You are the one who desires.
Speaker 4: We are the ones who are desired.
Speaker 7: This is woman's entire advantage, with something in you that
makes me want to punish you.
Speaker 6: Dominate you.
Speaker 5: You shall be bound.
Speaker 3: With stalking, sound and helpless, gad trodden, unload till you
can love.
Speaker 1: Then you may kiss my breast, my mouth, But first.
Speaker 7: My told you should be hotly and you shall feel
the pressure of mine without mercy, No, no losing.
Speaker 3: Okay, what else do we want to cover?
Speaker 2: On Marzano?
Speaker 6: I mean, oh yeah, I kind of detoured. Sorry, sorry,
bead on it. Uh And Sheck Wilde distracted me. Well,
the big thing that he did was a movie called
Man Outside, and that was kind of his calling card.
He did that in nineteen sixty five and that was
Barbara Allen was involved with that. The drag queen in
this which is Bob what's his face and his wife
were involved with that. A lot of the people that
he took and a lot of the cast and cool
At Baby were also in that. So he he used
that as his calling card to try to be like, well,
I can make a movie, and I can do it cheaply.
I don't know, well, yeah, I don't even know where
to get a hold of it. A lot of his
I don't know where his stuff went. I'd have to
reach out to probably Nathan Shift for that, because Nathan
Shift sounds like the person who was the closest to
him before he passed away. But yeah, so cool At
Baby was his first one, and that was kind of
his introductionist exploitation. And I think that the producer Luke
Kampa on that was so impressed by the way he
was able to do stuff really quickly and efficiently on
a low budget. He was kind of like, Okay, go
nuts with this movie. Here's ten k. You can do
any movie you want. He brought it in under budget.
He got ten k I think it was he got
in for eighty five fifty was the final budget on that,
which is impressive for a movie that looks this good
that it's that cheap. But yeah, he eventually of Venus
and First. Lu Campa, his producer, I think, got so
fed up with him because he had a lot of
great ideas but not the budget of the ability to
get them done efficiently or quickly. So he brought it
in under budget, but there was still a lot of
stuff that he still wanted to do that he couldn't do.
So this is kind of It's not one hundred percent
of the movie he wanted to do, but it's close.
But I think his issues with Lukampa led to Luke
Caampa and not wanted to work with him, And I
think he used Venus and First as another calling card
to go to other distributors. He went to Sam Lake
and then he went to Joseph Brenner, and the Brenner
meeting was disastrous, and so that was it. He had
Like I think Joe Brenner kicked him out of his
office and was like, I don't know who you think
you are, a get out of my office. And Joe, Yeah,
Joe Brenner notoriously difficult anyway, so not the best producer.
Maybe he should have probably gone to stand board and
stand Bordon might have been more, might have been nicer
to him.
Speaker 2: Wasn't there something in that?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I was in Brenner's office.
Speaker 3: He was acting all high and mighty, saying like, yes,
I don't pull my own cable, other people do that,
and kind of acting like no.
Speaker 6: He told he told him, you'll have to pull your
weight on my set. He told the distributor, Joe Brenner,
you will have to help me, and he said, I
don't do that. He's like, no, no, I won't, and
I think kicked him out of the office. He's like,
that's not how this business works. You need to crank
these out quick because we have product to get into
the theaters. We need to we have a schedule. We
got to get stuff in there while the iron's hot.
And uh, yeah, Marzano that his temperament was not made
for this business. He really wasn't. I wish he'd made
more movies like this that weren't necessarily. It makes me
wonder what he could do if he didn't have to
deal with like market demands, you know, for these, Like
if he wanted to do another Marzano movie. Like, I
just wonder if he could have done like something artsy,
I don't know, like a Jack Smith maybe, or there
are a lot of like independent filmmakers in New York.
I mean, the Warhol years were happening then, and I
just think he was very difficult, you know. I think
he's very difficult to deal with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was apparently really proud of that scene, the
bathtub milk scene. On rewatching it, it's like it's very
nicely framed, but I don't know, it doesn't stand out
that much to me. I don't know why he was
so proud of that one.
Speaker 6: I think, you know, sometimes there are directors who really
will remember things a certain way. Yeah, that might be
what it is, or he remembered it so vividly in
his head because there's that's another story that was told
for years. He knew that Harry Novak bought the movie,
so he's trying to.
Speaker 3: Get copies of his movie in it for so long.
Speaker 6: And he I don't think I think it took him
forever to finally get copies of them, if he ever did. So,
it's possible he's remembering something the way it was on
the set or the way he saw theatrically and then
hadn't read visited for like forty years before he passed away.
Speaker 3: Like you know, so in that scene, yeah, Barbara Allen
has like the mask on. Is there any examples that
you can think of, Jane, like in magazines, like was
that a common thing?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, especially if you see photos from the nineteenth century
or the very early twentieth century, like up to you know,
the nineteen thirties and forties, a lot the little black
eye mask is is pretty iconic. You know, typically it
was just used as a way to kind of hide
somebody's identity, at least that's the assumption you know people
that maybe and the reason it was particularly in that
early part is because you know, it was much less
common for people to be posing nude or to be Yeah, yeah,
of course modeling for these sort of risk a photographs,
and there were there was a potential to get a
lot more trouble too.
Speaker 3: Who was that girl in that scene, Casey, did you
identify her that sort of like fuller figured girl in
the bathtub you.
Speaker 2: Know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 6: Blond, but I do, Yeah, the blonde. It wasn't It
wasn't Yolanda and a Wi. I don't think it's because
Yolanda is in this. Yolanda Siniorrelli is the in the
shoe store, but then she shows up later as as
a blonde like in the forest with Barbara Ellen. She
was like nineteen when she did this movie, which is crazy,
very young.
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of different body types in this movie.
I don't think there's any I don't think there's any.
Speaker 2: Black women in this that I spotted in the background.
Speaker 6: No Natara, no Natara, that would have to think it
was I think so it would have been helpful. Yeah,
but I'm also surprised by the drag in this, which
is interesting. Yeah, because when I when you're watching movies
like this, like like when we cover all these different
expotation movies, like we know who the general target audience
is for. It's for like especially in this era, it's
like straight dude who fought in World War two, like,
so like you know, it's old, it's old, pasty baby boomer,
male baby boomers. So then you realize, like, okay, so
that's the audience. And then they have to see this
massage scene and then they have to see a drag
performer is that scene as an element of humor in
the film or is that scene as like another another
fetish because there were like cross stressing magazines and things
I think, right, Jane around that time.
Speaker 5: Absolutely yes. In fact, one of the major publishers, Leonard Bertman,
who you guys know produced Satan and High Heels. Bertman
had a magazine called Female Mimics for a number of
years during this year sixties, and Female Mimics was actually
a pretty sensitively done magazine. I really like it has
some great imagery and it has some great uh some
performers that are kind of still known today. But yeah,
I didn't feel like it was I didn't feel like
the drag and stuff was added in as a humor element.
In fact, one of the things that really impressed me
about this movie was that it felt almost like looking
at a fetish magazine like Bizarre, which was John Willie's magazine,
and one of the things he focused on with Bizarre
was covering a wide range of fetishes. He always said,
you know, there's what I like. He was personally interested
in high heels and stockings and bondage, but he didn't
limit the magazine to that. He tried to have as
broad appeal as possible. And that's kind of what I
felt like this movie was doing. Adding in all this
different stuff. It's almost like a little smorgas board for
whoever might be in the audience, and maybe you even
find something new that you didn't know you liked because
you hadn't been exposed to it before. I just I
really liked that element.
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, well. Then I also well, and I don't know,
is there food in this too? Is there like food
fetish stuff in this sort of there might be the
party scene that maybe a little Yeah, I mean, it
really does feel like there's just you're right, it is
just like a little bit of everything. It is like
it is like a board or like a it's like
a fetish shark utery, yeah something, you know. It's like,
let's get a little of this, a little of that,
see where it goes. And it all really works all
really well together. Like it doesn't stop cold or feel awkward.
It doesn't. It also does not feel like something that
a novice is just throwing into a movie to meet
a market demand.
Speaker 5: Right, right, let's see what it didn't have that feel?
Speaker 6: I agree, Yeah, it feels like something that he was
at the very least for he was at least on
a surface level, familiar with all of it enough to
make it feel authentic in this and not like, you know, pretend.
Obviously it's all pretend, but it definitely doesn't feel like, Okay, well,
this audience is going to expect like this lesbian scene,
so let's throw it in there. Like everything really merges
really well together as an experience, which is not common.
Speaker 5: It kind of adds to that off center feel where
or unbalanced, you know, like the main character is of
thinking what the hell is you know, going on and
looking from room to room and being startled. It kind
of gives the viewer that same field that the character
is experiencing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like an erotic funhouse. Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 6: But I also think it's interesting because at this time,
like well this is sixty seven, so we're dealing with
we're like at the start of the really rough Ruffies
where it really is about hurting women and punishing women.
Because before that, the new dqts are kind of like
looking at the women, and so the Ruffies are the
opposite of that. It's like, well, we don't want to
just look at women. You would think the natural progression
is well, now I want to have sex with this
woman because I've been looking at her. No's you want
to punish this woman for whatever reason. It's all about punishment.
And it's interesting because this movie doesn't really have that.
It has a lot more women in positions of power,
and not the kind of thing where it's like Findlay,
where it's a central misogynist who is targeting women and
brutally killing them like it's it's very interesting to note
that this film doesn't want to take that route, which
is expected, and as the market is turning in that direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the last shot of the movie is
is you know the woman is still alive? Thank god? Right,
And a lot of these movies they're not.
Speaker 6: So yes, yeah, sometimes there are no survivors like touts
are for flash and cursive for flash, right, exactly, rough stuff.
Speaker 1: I keep thinking of last night, all the things you
get to the way you began to take the coursely.
Speaker 4: Like a really.
Speaker 5: Okay, see, I'm so unhappy news.
Speaker 3: I've always been always.
Speaker 6: Oho. I guess I haven't been much help and I
long to be something.
Speaker 1: Better, but I just can't help myself.
Speaker 5: Something very simple for.
Speaker 1: You and or I weakness techniques, you want to shoot
both dominate you.
Speaker 6: Let's forget about all of that.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: What do you think about the music in this movie
Romeo and Juliet theme, No.
Speaker 6: Not for me. It adds that level of like not sophistication,
but it adds like a level of culture that you
feel like it was selected intentionally sort of because Romeo
and Juliet is kind of like I think the idea
of Romeo and Juliet is that it's like a fan
of romantic fantasy, when in reality it is absolutely not.
It is like it is a tragedy. People reference Romeo
and Juliet is like, oh my god, young love. It's like, no,
it is awful. It ends very brutally, like I think
we'll forget that. So I think that it was probably
done intentionally. It wasn't. It doesn't feel like lazily picked
out of like a stack of classical musical piece.
Speaker 2: For me anyway.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And the garage music is in all three of
the lu Kampa ones, So it's in Cooler Baby, and
it's in Miniskirt Love. That garage music that plays throughout
and I don't know where that came from. That's another
we kept running into this with these movies where it's
music that we love and we don't know where it
came from because we can't we can't find the library
music that it that it's from.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't seem to be like licensed anywhere, so
nobody copyrights it.
Speaker 2: Like this strikes us.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the thing. That's funny. It's the
funny thing, Jane. So he puts he uploads these episodes
to YouTube and they like to do copyright strikes and say,
you have this music in this episode that's copyrighted. So
that's how we're able to identify certain library pieces because
the library companies now are making them available for streaming
and that includes YouTube, so they'll say, hey, we flagg
this old sixties library music that like Sony owns now.
So that's how we know what certain psalms are sometimes about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it is.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean I used to zam a lot of
the time. But you know, there are certain libraries that
just aren't available. So we'll just you know, KPM is available,
Selected sound is available, there's definitely Library Chappelle is largely available,
but there's there must be little, tiny libraries that we're
not aware of that just have not been reissued or
they're not streaming anywhere, so we keep running into that.
Speaker 3: Talked about Barbara Ellen a bit. I don't know if
there's anything more to cover with her talked about shep Wild.
Speaker 6: I wish there was more to talk about with Barbara
Ellen because I just find her so fascinating. But with
that name, I feel like Barbara Ellen. I feel like
Ellen was probably her middle name, but we don't know
her last name, so it's very difficult to research her.
We know that she was married because her husband didn't
really want her to do nudity in venus and furs,
and that's kind of the thing where I wish that
somebody had asked Marzano that question. You know, maybe Nathan
Schiff knows, So that's some thing. If we follow up
with Nathan Schiff, who knew Marzano, maybe he remembers who
she was. It's because of the Marzano interview that I
was able to pinpoint Bella Donna's real name and find
her and find pictures of her in the newspaper and
stuff from her modeling days in the fifties and sixties.
So it doesn't make me it does make me wonder
we keep bumping into this with with people in sexpotation
because the talent releases are long gone and there's a
lot of people obviously that produce these movies that aren't
around anymore. So I can't really ask for real names.
We have to kind of hope and pray somebody remembers Yolanda.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's one of the girls here. She's the one
trying on the shoes. Yeah, I definitely recognize her at
the beginning when she's trying the shoes.
Speaker 2: Great, she's so good.
Speaker 6: She's back in the news now though, because a new
documentary about her just premiered south By Southwest this year. Yes, yes,
so the thing so she shortly after making this movie.
She's very She was like twenty. She met the guy
who invented the sea monkeys. So and this guy, terrible guy.
I went to a deep dive about this guy. Apparently
he was an active white supremaist, a member of the
Area Nations and the KKK while he was involved with
the Sea Monkeys. And then he died. So not don't
rest in peace, dirt bag. But she's still around. But
the crazy thing is, so she got involved with a
legal battle for the rights to the Sea Monkeys with
some other toy company, and these documentary filmmakers tracked her
down and she's living like Big Eaty and Little Eadie
in a house in Maryland that's decrepit, with raccoons and things,
no electricity, no running water, so she's like Greg Gardens.
Now she's living like Greg Gardens. They did a documentary
about her where apparently she's fine talking about making these films.
It's not something she's embarrassed about. The official Sea Monkeys
website has a statement from her that includes images from
press books of movies She did it like assignment. Female
is on there, and I'm just like, okay, so when
we're not hiding this, okay, good, okay, nothing to be
embarrassed about. Girl. It's all good, Like this was fifty
years ago. But I don't know how to get in
touch with her if she has no electricity or running water.
But she lives in Maryland, which is in my backyard
from where I grew up in Northern Virginia. So I'm
kind of like, do I write her a letter? Oh?
Speaker 2: You go there, you go there?
Speaker 6: I Well. The thing is, I think the filmmakers were
nervous because they also want to know about her husband,
but and he has a very controversial background, being a
wildly racist person. I don't care about the husband. I
want to know about the films and her modeling and
things like that.
Speaker 3: I involved with someone like that, Well we already know,
you know, And did she know.
Speaker 6: He met her there? We yeah, we know that she
did know that they have a daughter together, so I'm
pretty sure she did to wear Unfortunately, I just want
to know about the films. That's all I want to
know about. I don't want to dig deep into the husband.
I feel like other people can do that.
Speaker 3: Do you ever run into that, Jane, where you run
into characters that are have really shady backgrounds and you're like,
I got to put that aside and just focus on
the art, you know.
Speaker 5: Not to the extent of like being in the KKK
thankfully as a something like that. And I would have
a really hard time, you know, separating that personally. But
you know, there are you know, people are complicated. And
I would say one thing, for example, with with John Willie,
although I would not I would not say that he
expressed a lot of extreme prejudices. He was really he
would often say things about like you know, for example,
with cross dressing. You know, oh, well, cross dressing that
you know, that's not gay. That's like something real men do,
like back in the you know, back in the back
in the days of nights and you know, in shining
armor it was very uh, you know, chivalrous, and and
they would they would wear high heels and that was normal.
And he'd really make all these excuses, you know, and
and and he really emphasized, he liked to emphasize that
cross dressing was not the same as being gay. And
of course it's it's not the same, but it's also like, well, okay, John,
but like it's not really a good deal, like they
can coexist and it's fine. It doesn't say anything about you.
And and that's kind of a mid century thing too, I'm sure,
hang up kind of so you know, there's there's things
like that. But yeah, as far as like being an
active white supremacist, I thankfully have run across anybody like that.
Speaker 3: And yeah, well, I mean that was ed Wood's perspective too,
wasn't it. With regard to cross dressing. He kind of
saw it as like a manly thing as well to
a certain.
Speaker 6: Extent, so he did it openly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bella Donna, we kind of talked about her, but
I uh, if you're not again, we will chill our
Patreon here.
Speaker 2: I have not seen this photo of Belladonna.
Speaker 6: Which one, there's two?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ballet, the ballet.
Speaker 6: Yeah. She has a note in here in the newspaper
saying pin up model Lisa Millot of Dayton. I'll say
her real name because she's no longer with us, is
Lisa Malot. She used that name on moon Lighting Wives.
It's actually how I was able to track her because
that's the one movie she used her real name on.
Speaker 3: This has happened several times with us, where it's like
people's real names are just hiding and playing sight and
we don't realize.
Speaker 6: Well, that one I trusted more because I feel like
there are more real names on those credits than the
other Sarno's. I feel like that was a much more
mainstream attempt of a film. So Lisa Mallott of Dayton
wants to become a serious actress. Quote, but as long
as they pay me to wear lee it's hard and
breathe deep, I will like okay. And that appeared all
over the newspapers all over the country. It hit all
the news once. You know.
Speaker 3: What's funny too, is like the more I think about it,
you know, in the movies that she's in, she does
like active exercise fitness type stuff, like in this she's
riding that fitness bike. So it was like a little
bit of that real personality, real life like passion coming through.
Speaker 6: She was a health nut and that's why at first
I was like, you know, she's typically casting older woman
types in these films, And I said, yeah, but that
happens in s exploitation. Well, you cast a woman who's
like in her like late twenties early thirties is like
a mom or you're an older woman. I'm like, Okay,
I guess I guess that that works for the narrative.
But like she was what was the math? Again, she
was mid forties, which is very rare for these films,
like very rare, and especially the fact that she did
do nudity in a number of films like that is
just unheard of. It this time you don't usually this
genre is focused on like the newest young fresh face
who who is like coming up in their early twenties.
So the fact that she was able to find her
way into this industry and be successful is very special.
I mean, I've always loved her because just you know,
I think she's very special. Yeah, you know, Janet was third.
Janet was mid thirties. She's thirty three, I think because
she's they're in thirty and nineteen sixty four. Yeah, so
she was like thirty four thirty three. But it's interesting. Yah,
it's just interesting to note those the ages because I think, yeah,
the expectation for expectation is always going to be young,
young women. But when I think you're working, you're trying
to cast characters and films that have story. You know,
you want to cast the right type. And so Bella
Donna just came along with the right time when you
needed older women moonlining wives, Like a lot of those
women in that are a little older because they're supposed
to be like suburban housewives and suburban mothers. So that
casting works. But yeah, she's great. I hope her daughter
gets back with me, and I hope it's not too awkward.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm looking back at what else was that? Do I
remember bell Yeah, I remember her from a couple of Starnos.
I'm trying to think which ones she has like the
bigger roles in.
Speaker 6: She's a huge role and she's doing it again, which
is the one with Uda Eriksson, when she's really terrific
in deep.
Speaker 2: Inside she's like the side.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, she's very good. See. And something that I
like that I have to get ready to do, Jane,
is that when I'm contacting family members of people who
don't necessarily obviously want to see their family members nude
in these films, so I have to create like a
super cut of you know, like here's here's a highlight
reel without the nudity of why because yes, because as
a gay man, I'm not necessarily I'm obviously not pursuing
or interested in the women in these films for the
obvious reasons. Like so I will do a super cut
of like their performances or like you know, when they're
lit really well, and like, you know, yeah, I might
have to do that for this daughter actually, just to
be like, let's talk about your mom's modeling. Did she
talk about the films? And if she hasn't seen them,
then I have to introduce her to some of the
good ones.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what a great idea, What a great way to
do it because also sometimes you know, even if it's
not your family member, if you just want to see
some of people to start, and if you start with
the wrong movie, you might just.
Speaker 6: You know's, yes, yeah, I have to do that. Actually
with I'm friends with Barbara Mills' daughter, and Barbara Mills
is someone that Genter and I both like, and she
passed away, but her and her daughter is interested in
watching her mom's films. So her mom only made like
a few movies that are like PG and she did
nudity in so many of her films. So I'm like,
I need to do a super cut because her mom
was like, really, she's a really good actress, and so
there's a lot of good stuff that I can pull
to kind of show her why she has she's such
a magnetic cinema personality. It's really not about, you know,
the sexual persona. It's about like the cinematic persona, which
sometimes includes nudy and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's about,
you know, the vibrant scene and the personality that they
have they bring character.
Speaker 2: All that stuff. All her scenes from Blue Money there
you go.
Speaker 6: Yes, except for the scene where she's nude carrying a
little child. Yes, No, that's mechanically that it is sweet
because she just had her daughter at that time, so
it kind of is like she's carrying the doctor that
I'm friends with. Yeah, but that does well, that does
remind me, Actually, Jane, I did want to ask. So
in terms of research, we we will run into issues
with like people that either are gone and deceased, or
we went into obstacles where somebody we want to interview
doesn't want to talk. So for your book, like what
were were there some obstacles that you that you ran
into but that you were able to like overcome those
obstacles to kind of get what you needed for the project.
Speaker 5: Yes, you know, there were a few people, specifically John
Willie's models, where I did try to reach out to
some of the family members. Some of them had careers,
you know, not just in bondage modeling, but in other
types of modeling as well. And there was one in
particular who was a favorite model of John, and I
tried to reach out to some of her family members
because she has since died and wasn't able to or
you know, didn't receive a response.
Speaker 2: Is that Pat Conley?
Speaker 5: It is, yes, and she's she's such a great model.
I really really love her. But fortunately, you know, I
was able to find information through other sources as well,
so that was good. Let's see, just kind of in general,
it was a tough, a tough research project because a
lot of the people have passed on. And fortunately that
Kinsey Institute at Indiana University has a lot of generally materials.
They even did interviews with him before his death, so
that was really really helpful. We're so lucky as a
culture to have those and to have that that repository.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So yeah, you know, I mean, you know, research is
always kind of an up and down and up and down, and.
Speaker 6: Some times you reach out to people and you hear nothing,
and it's like I'd rather hear a no than radio silence.
Just tell me no, so that I know that it's
a definitive not going to happen.
Speaker 5: Right, And then it reached you, you know that you
saw it and that I wasn't writing.
Speaker 1: The wrong.
Speaker 6: You know, yes, yes, because that can happen too. Yeah.
I mean, actually I reached out to someone who I
thought was an actress. I wrote them a letter and
they called me and they said, so I'm not the
person you're looking for, but I love the letter tell
me all about this woman that has my name, And
I was like, uh, okay, I'll give you the download
of this cool person who has your name. And I
kept listening like is it really them? Are they really?
Are they pretending just to see if I'm for real?
And it wasn't her. It's like okay, but but yeah,
the research is fun. But yeah, it's like you definitely
run into those those issues where you're just like, Okay,
where do I go to get this the full narrative
for the story that I'm telling. But it sounds like
I'm really glad that you didn't run into that as
frequently and you were able to kind of tell that
story effectively and completely for this project, because that's really incredible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a really exciting project to work on
for sure. You know a lot of One more thing
about you were talking about the age of the actors
and actresses and even you know, shep wild and stuff
like that, being older in Venus in first, And something
that that brings to mind for me is the fact
that in the kind of fetish magazine world, the models
aren't always young. You know, there are older models or
if readers send in amateur photos, a lot of times
it will be older people, older men, and older women,
and so there's a wide range of ages.
Speaker 6: And that was.
Speaker 5: The case early on, but even into the present day
that is the case I think a lot of times,
particularly with the dominant women, age is considered sort of
a benefit in a lot of cases as far as
experience goes, and so so that could have been part
of it too in terms of casting for this particular movie.
Speaker 6: Yeah right, Yeah, that makes me wonder, Yeah, because like
you mentioned, the experience angle, so it's someone who has
lived life and they maybe they're more confident in where
they are, and so it really is like, this is
something that I want to do. It's not. It's not
something that maybe someone younger would years later considered like
a youthful indiscretion. It's something that they made an informed
decision about because they were older and knew what they
were doing. That's very interesting. I never thought about that,
because you know, for a lot of magazines you see
the personals ads in the back, and there is a
wide variety of people in those personals ads. It really
is very diverse, and I always love seeing those. I
mean it's it's decades later now, but it's just like
these were people who were really being very sexually progressive
and wanted to explore their sexuality. And I love that
we don't really work we talk about this on here
where I feel like we're kind of in like in
some place, some areas we're in like a sexual dead
zone where there's a lot of negativity about about elements
of sex and in film and in culture and things
like that. So that's where we try to keep the
conversation going in a way that we try to just
try to not make it as as dirty as people
are saying privately when talking about her book, I'm just like,
I'm you should be proud that.
Speaker 3: This thing was even published these days, because there's a
lot of places that just don't want to touch it,
they won't even look at it.
Speaker 6: Well, that's why, and that's also why Sex Best. I'm
really glad Sex Best is still going.
Speaker 5: You know, they are so great and the people behind
it are so nice, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a festival called Sinecink here in New York
that I'm friends with the organizer of that, Lisa Vanderveer,
And yeah, she that keeps going. Actually, when is that
coming up? But they do that every I think they
do that every year. I remember they even did it
during COVID. They did like it did like a from
home version of Sinecink And that's really great, and that
really is very it's very pro kink. It has there's
a lot of independent filmmakers that contribute like into their
short films that they make like It's it's really it's
kind of I guess, like the East Coast version of
sex Fest. But it's also very very kink focused, all
kinds of kink too, and very diverse.
Speaker 3: Well, speaking of that, Jane, you know, what are some
kink films you would recommend?
Speaker 2: Are there any?
Speaker 3: They don't have to be necessarily your favorites, but maybe
that sort of capture some accuracy.
Speaker 2: Or something that you think is worthwhile.
Speaker 5: Oh god, that's a good question. I might need to
get you a list. I love that as far as
like kind of I mean, it's it's definitely a more
recent vintage. But like Secretary, I really liked that movie.
I thought they did a great.
Speaker 6: Job with Secretary. Yeah, it's kind.
Speaker 5: Of funny, but one of my favorite letters that was
written into bizarre was from a It was kind of
I think it was nineteen fifty three and this man
in about he said, you go to the movies and
you see, you know, you see a poster where you
think there's gonna be something in the movie that you like,
like a woman tied up. And he said, but you
may have noticed that when you go to this movie,
such scenes are annoyingly brief. And so he said, what
you can do is you can bring a camera into
the movie theater with you, and even explained how like
you can brace your your elbows on your seats of
the elbow, you know, the armpads of your seat, and
like make a little tripod so that you don't get
any blur and take all the pictures you want of
the scenes that you want to see. And then he
provided an entire list of movies. I'll like copy it
and send it to you, guys. It's so funny. He
puts little asterisks next to the best ones, and you know,
some of them, he says, they're all, yeah, they're okay,
but you know, and then there's there's one called something girls,
Bad Girls, or something like that, and he writes next
to it, good poster and I looked up the poster
and it's like, you know, this school head mistress spraying
this tied up girl with a hose.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, know what we're talking.
Speaker 6: Then that movie obviously does not live up to it
because he only comments on the poster.
Speaker 5: He was not so good. But check out the poster.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love that. That. Oh that is so.
Speaker 3: It sounds like isn't that a scene in Rented Girl?
Speaker 6: Like rent a Girl? Yeah, but that scene is in there.
He would have commented and said, the scene is good.
It's based on that. That's a really crazy scene. Yes,
that's fascinating. That's really fascinating.
Speaker 2: We need to see that list.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's cool, and it's kind of interesting because some
of them are just the other pilot movies. There's something
where a woman got tied up to a to a
ship or whatever right in those days.
Speaker 2: That that's enough, that's enough. Yeah, are out there, like yeah, but.
Speaker 6: I also love the idea that like he wrote that
letter in knowing that it might get published and then
that way that's like that that is that form of
community building, Like we would not get that until message
boards and read it and like Facebook groups and all
that stuff and now in MySpace and stuff like that.
So that's so interesting that like at that time that
was the way that you communicated stuff to the people
that were simpatica with You're like those yeah.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, that is exactly correct.
Speaker 6: I love that, see, and that's why I anytime I
get old periodicals that are like you know, sexually oriented periodicals,
I always read the letters to the editor. I always
read this stuff because sometimes it's asking sometimes just good questions,
and sometimes it's people who actually have like been involved
with Sometimes photographers and other people involved in the business
write in and like you didn't get this correct, and
you know that kind of thing. So it's very interesting.
They're not always fabricated. I feel like the fabrication was
maybe like something that happened later in like the porno years.
But yeah, I love the fact that I love the
letters to the editor being like this is the bulletin
board and then the news updates for people of like mine.
That is great. I love that. Oh I never know
what I'm going to do.
Speaker 5: I study impul.
Speaker 4: I love doing.
Speaker 3: All right, Jane, you send us that and then we'll
create like a letterbox list of all those movies and
put it online.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I'm trying to gauge ones
that you would like more, because if you don't like
the Olga ones, I mean, there are definitely better ones
and Olga, I mean, I guess we don't have to
talk about Olga. But like, I feel like those movies
are very similar, like the Irving Claw photos. But the
Claw photos there are something much more sexually charged about
those than the films, probably because Claw knew what he
was doing, and I don't think Morow was really into
I don't think he was into the nature of sm
M and bondage and things, but they ca it's like
more like play acting I think in those, Yes, But
but yeah, we'll have to figure that out because some
of the fetish, I don't know. It's interesting because a
lot of fetish stuff and exploitation fetish really found more
of a home when hardcore started, because yeah, it really
was not something that was really present in a ton
of softcore, but when stuff came out like the image
or the Notty Victorians or the image Yes, story of Joanna,
Oh my god, I love the Story of Joanna. Yes, yeah,
stuff like that.
Speaker 5: In eight hundred Fantasy Lane, there's like a dungency.
Speaker 6: That dungeency bothers the hell out of me because I
think it crosses the line into like Hillary Summers was
obviously very upset and crying real t because Jamie Gillis
took it too far that that that bit might be
cut out on current video versions, like the original uncut version,
she's like hitting him and he's hitting her back, she's crying.
I'm like, oh my god, Yeah, it's that's a little
over the top. Give me a story of Joanna where
it's a little more it's a little more poetic and
you know, yes, and you get to see her dancing
ballet because she was a ballerina in real life. Yeah,
so I.
Speaker 5: Know it isn't that great. I love it when like
sort of like the whole thing about the exercise bike,
or like Chuck Wild doing the massage. I love it
when some of a performer's real life gets folded in with.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it doesn't happen that frequently. Because we were just
talking last week about an actress that was a singer.
She had a paramount recording contract. She never sings in
any of her movies. Yeah, so we don't know what
she sounds like. Also, because she didn't record anything. She
had a contract, but no recordings were made, so we
don't know what her singing voice was like. And that's
when it's like, God, couldn't you have done like this
Belladonna on a or Terry Hall doing ballet? Like why
couldn't you let us see some of who this person was,
you know?
Speaker 5: Or I'm for some reason blanking on her name right
now with the actress that was in Satan in high
heels and she sang.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, Med Miles, Yes, yeah, they act she was
a singer. Yeah, and she's great. Yeah, she's a good
singer on that. Grayson Hall, well yeah, yeah. I'm so
glad that that was that was that was shown and
I'm bummed I didn't get to see it because I
what was the So what was the audience reaction to that?
I would love to know how that screening went over?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it went over really Bill. There were a lot
of people there, and I was I was pleased to
see you know, people kind of uh kind of laughed
at all the right parts, the little kind of like
subtle digs and stuff like that, or some of the
kind of kind of campy or silly parts. So but Yeah,
people seem to enjoy it. I talked to a few
people afterwards that that had good things to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think we said on our show too, like that's
a really good one to screen for people that might
not be familiar with sexploitation because it's pretty tame at
the end of the day.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's much more of like a melodrama. It is
very like classic Hollywood bad.
Speaker 2: Girl, like something is mean on TCM.
Speaker 6: You know, it's very pre code. Actually, it's something you
would see in pre code, like like Babyface, you know,
or something else. Yeah, it reminds me that it's like,
I'm going to make it to the top of show
business in New York and I'm gonna, you know, seduce
a gay guy, go to bed with a lesbian have
sex with the Bossa's son. Like, yeah, it's very stand
Wick and baby Face. I'm just like, and you're on
her side the entire time. I'm never not against her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So.
Speaker 6: I don't care if the movie's trying to make me
hate her. You can't make me hate mid Miles. I'm sorry.
You can't make me hate the Satan and high heels
not possible.
Speaker 5: And that would be such a cool time capsule too,
I feel, especially with the fashions. I mean not to derail,
but like Samuel Robert was the designer that did the
leatherwear for that movie, and yes, so fabulous.
Speaker 6: Now, we didn't talk about him on our episode. Actually,
I don't think. I wasn't aware that he was like
a known person. I don't think.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was a leatherwear designer. He actually worked in
collaboration with Andre Corre for a while, who was another
designer who had a lot of fetish influence in his clothing,
even though he's a high end designer. Actually, at this
period kind of mid to late sixties, there was a
lot of fetish influence happening in mainstream fashion. And yeah,
Samuel Robert, I think he started in the nineteen fifties,
forties or fifties actually, and he was a really creative
leatherwear designer, made some very unusual garments that were kind
of conservative in line, but very unusual in fabric as
far as using the leather and swede and stuff like that.
And yeah, I kind of wondered how he ended up
getting hooked up with Lenny Bertman other than just you know,
I was wondered kind of Oh, had he made garments
for Bertman for photos or something like that. I wasn't
able to find any information about that. But he even
won some award from like Leather Leather Manufacturers of America
for promoting leather in such a great way.
Speaker 6: Wow, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: Well, I think I said that was my favorite part
of that movie was the leather outfits and you hear
the actual you know, crinkling of the leather.
Speaker 2: That's like the most erotic part of that movie to me.
Speaker 5: Right, Well, yeah, I think that was I think that
was the point. I think that's what Bertman wanted to be.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think that was Gentry's main problem.
He was like, there's not enough leather in this because
that is yeah, I mean there is. She doesn't into
the leather into the last act of the movie, and
it's like she should have been in leather the whole time.
Who should have heard her in leather crinkling into the
place when she came to the city, Like she should
have been in a leather the whole time. That would
have been nice. But you also need that that that
corruption the city, making her more corrupt. I guess that
classic New York City corruption.
Speaker 3: Well, I sense a bonus feature in the future, maybe
if we can get Satan in High Heels on Blu Ray,
if we can delve into some of this stuff.
Speaker 6: Yes, spoiler alert. We put a bug in the ear
of a company that we work for to try to
get that. So yeah, I would love it. Now. I
would love if you could screen Venus in Furs at
Sexfest next year or the next sex Best. The issue
is with the Novak estate, but I think I think
this one will probably go over really well too. I
don't I don't think it's not a story heavy at
Satan I Heels, but it covers so much territory and
it must it would look really good on a big screen,
I think absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think people would be really into it because it
just looks, like you say, it just looks cool. It
just yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: I love it.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you liked it, Jane, because we were searching
for a film that you would enjoy talking about.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I really, I really did. Thank you so much.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm trying, yeah, because that's what I'm trying to
think of a good follow up on this. You just
think cool it baby, not mini skirt Love. I still
think Love isn't really fetishy. It does have Bella Donna
though and Janea bands, and it has the two doms
in this as basically sisters, you know.
Speaker 3: Cool it baby has that whole uh scene near the
end with all the just like complete depravity going on everywhere,
with the even have like they even have like blood
sacrifice stuff going on with drinking goat's blood and all
the strange.
Speaker 6: True, maybe so circus actually that maybe you don't think
so Alex like that one.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's on that scan for that is just
like so hard to watch.
Speaker 6: That's true. I don't know that we have to. Yes,
that's true. Okay, we want it. We want something that
you can actually see and appreciate how well made it is.
If it's ugly, it's gonna look terrible. That's true. Yeah. So,
oh actually I did want to ask, what, so, are
you working on anything new after the John Willie book
is out? Do you have another project you're working on?
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Can you actually talk about it? That's the question?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 5: Yes, And yes, I mean, okay.
Speaker 1: I.
Speaker 5: Am working on my second book right now. Unfortunately I
can't talk about it yet, but it is going to
be another biography.
Speaker 7: So great.
Speaker 2: Is it in the same realm? Can you say that
it's adjacent?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's still it's still in kind of a sex
focused realm.
Speaker 6: Yes, okay, great all I needed to know, sign me up. Yes,
I love that. Yeah, we're very sex positive here. We
want to see more more sexual history captured and shared
with people.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 6: I need to buy this book now. I'm gon't order
it when we finished with this so I can finally
read it.
Speaker 3: It's so beautiful, like I was telling Jean, like the
they do like the black pages.
Speaker 2: It looks so.
Speaker 6: Oh my god, I love that design. Oh wow.
Speaker 3: And even on the inside, like I don't know what
you call this, it's sort of like embossed.
Speaker 2: It's so nice.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, oh I love that. That is really cool.
Speaker 5: Okay, there's a really the publisher. I was really really
happy with what they what they came up with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's with Schiffer Publishing.
Speaker 6: Nice. Okay, interesting. I'll put it next to my Samuel
Stewart book. Read that book, Gentry. It's great too.
Speaker 2: I'm ready to expand my mind.
Speaker 6: I'm oh, it's so good. History is really it covers
so much. It's not he was part of the S
and M world, the publishing world, the tattoo world. Like
he photographed. He was a big photographer, or he photographed
like rough trade and stuff like. His story is really wild.
He also was involved with hardcore. He wrote a hardcore
movie which is not good, but uh, it was stolen
from him basically. Yet it's yeah, you need that book.
It's very good. You don't have to you don't have
to be you as a straight man. You still like it.
I will say that pretty open minded. Anyway, Gentry, you're fine,
Yeah you are. I wouldn't be doing the show if
you weren't. That would be a very difficult show to do.
Speaker 1: Now, the moral of this story is that you can
always learn more about people if you watch the face
rather than the backside.
Speaker 2: What do you think, Jane, And do you have any
last thoughts?
Speaker 3: Any favorite scene means Venus and furs as we close out, god.
Speaker 5: You know everything. I really couldn't pick a favorite scene
in the movie. That's the funny thing is that first
I was saying, oh, well, you know, it starts off
so great, you know, and then it's like, oh, with
the subway scene, Oh no, wait, but all the girls
running out of the library. I mean just it. I
just loved it really from beginning to end. So thank
you so much for this recommendation, because it was really
an enjoyable and enjoyable watch.
Speaker 3: And you said Rick liked it as well, right, yeah, yeah,
you loved it.
Speaker 5: Actually we ended up watching it twice, so that was.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 6: Oh, it's very nice phrase. Yeah it is. It is,
and it's that's a I think about a lot of exploitation.
It's very it's short, and but then it's also a
situation where like sometimes you're like, Okay, this is the
perfect length, and sometimes you wish it was there was more.
You're like, okay, I could have I could have done
with like twenty more minutes like this just because you
like spending time with the people in the style is
really engrossing.
Speaker 2: It's this is effect.
Speaker 6: Yes, like you wish it was longer. Yeah, yeah, And
we've covered a few movies like that. We were just
kind of like, sixty two minutes not enough, and we
did like another fifteen Yeah, and there's some that yeah,
could have been forty five.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's for sure, that's sure.
Speaker 6: Yes, Barry Mayhounds could have been thirty minutes. Yes, a
lot of those, A lot of those could have been
half an hour.
Speaker 5: Do you think, o lea, maybe.
Speaker 8: We just thought to you.
Speaker 5: I thought with you as a run while. Wouldn't you
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Speaker 6: Sure