WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:13.480 Welcome to another episode of The Oath in the Office. 2 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:16.120 I'm John Fugelsang, and I am so pleased and proud 3 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:17.760 to welcome a man who does not appear in the 4 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:21.320 Epstein Files, the star of our show, the author of 5 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:25.280 The Oath and the Office, Brown University professor Corey Bretschneider. 6 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:28.679 Hello, sir, Hello John, And you know, in the midst 7 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:31.600 of so much bleak news, I look forward to talking 8 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:32.240 to you every week. 9 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:33.840 It just sort of cures. 10 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.200 Me of any malaise I might have and lets me 11 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.359 see the hope and the humor. And so we'll do 12 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.600 as we always do. We'll talk about the worrying stuff 13 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:44.560 that's out there and also the hope. And of course 14 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:46.640 in the second half we'll have Harry Littman, one of 15 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:51.079 the best commentators on law and presidential power, So looking 16 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:52.000 forward to that as well. 17 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:52.280 Well. 18 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:53.439 It's nice of you to say, Corey. 19 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:56.520 Usually people find me the most depressing person in the room. 20 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.200 I'm not an optimist. I'm a recovering cynic. 21 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:01.679 And as bad as all of this is right now, 22 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:03.320 I can point to you a lot of other times 23 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:06.799 in American history where it was even worse, even without 24 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:10.439 a flamboyantly racist moron for president. But also there's so 25 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:13.760 much resistance, there's so much hope, there's so much reason 26 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:17.400 to hang on again. As a recovering cynic. I'm just 27 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:19.879 astonished at all the good people out there who are leaking, 28 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.200 who are struggling, who are resisting. And I really want 29 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:25.719 to talk to you about the reporting from Maggie Haberman 30 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.920 and Jonathan Swan about Epstein. That could be the story 31 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:33.359 of the month. But let's start with this tidbit that 32 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:37.959 this White House was considering suspending Habeas Corpus. Apparently Donald 33 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:41.840 Trump weighed suspending a constitutional right because he's allowed to 34 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.319 do that if he can't spell it or pronounce it. 35 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:47.280 So Will Sharf, who's this very right wing White House 36 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:50.359 staff secretary. He wrote a secret memo last spring to 37 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:52.959 Susie Wilds, the chief of staff, and the New York 38 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.400 Times got it five page memo. And the whole thing 39 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.439 was this guy in writing, because it looks like Will 40 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.519 Sharp is looking to cover himself for posterity in writing 41 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:06.000 making sure that Susie Wiles knew that this crazy idea 42 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:10.680 from Stephen Miller to suspend Habeas Corpus for unauthorized immigrants 43 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:16.199 was unconstitutional, Corey for listeners who vaguely remember high school civics, 44 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.680 what exactly is habeas corpus and why have legal scholars 45 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.199 called it one of the most important protections for any 46 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:23.400 constitutional democracy. 47 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:25.759 Yeah, that's a great set up, John, It's certainly a 48 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:28.400 constitutional right, but it's really more than that. It's I 49 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.680 would call it the kind of core of the idea 50 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:33.159 of a system of the rule of law, that we 51 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:36.000 don't live under a tyrant or an absolute monarch or 52 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:38.599 a dictator, that we live in a system in which 53 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:41.159 everybody is supposed to be subject to the same rules. 54 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.520 And the first idea there, and this goes back to 55 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:48.360 the thirteenth century to Magna carta, is that if government 56 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:50.400 is going to hold you against your will, it's going 57 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:53.039 to detain you, it has to have a reason for it, 58 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:54.759 and it's got to be it has to be a 59 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:57.039 reason that they're able to give you a legal reason 60 00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:59.319 in court. And so the idea of being able to 61 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:01.919 appear in court, being able to hear the reasons why 62 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.879 you're being detained, that's the presumption of liberty and the 63 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:08.759 idea that if you're going to be stopped from that liberty, 64 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:11.280 that there has to be a great reason, a good reason, 65 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:15.039 let's say, some reason for it. And you know it's 66 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:17.719 not any right, it's a fundamental right in the sense 67 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.719 if you think about it. Once that's gone, what is 68 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:24.879 to prevent absolute control by the president or by the 69 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:29.319 authorities over any individual, because they could say, Stephen Miller, 70 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.240 for instance, claimed oh, I just want to do it 71 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:34.360 in regard to Venezuelan's at least in the beginning, and. 72 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:36.159 Repard to those from enemy nations. 73 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:38.319 But if you don't have a right to appear in court, 74 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:41.919 how do we know that I am from Venezuela, that 75 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.120 I am the person I'm accused of being. And so 76 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:48.639 quickly we saw when this got translated into policy, and 77 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:51.199 now we know exactly who it was coming from Stephen Miller. 78 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:53.759 Right, that was one of the problems. They were getting 79 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:54.479 the wrong people. 80 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.759 They were getting people who were supposedly guilty of crimes 81 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:00.800 that weren't in any way, And we know the root 82 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:02.960 of it. A battle in the White House, and at 83 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:05.680 least you know that we could question the motives. But 84 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:08.639 at least somebody stood up and said, hey, this isn't 85 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:11.599 just a violation of the law. It's a violation of 86 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.199 the fundamental idea of the rule of law, right, the 87 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.120 basic idea of our constitution. 88 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.199 Well, this guy's sharp is hardly a resistance fighter. He's 89 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:23.000 the dirtiest pete. I mean, this guy's dirtier than Steve 90 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:26.399 Mannen's hamper. But he clearly knew how illegal this was. 91 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:28.079 And again, at the end of the day, Corey, we 92 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:31.560 noticed these people are all looking out for themselves. So 93 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.160 he writes, how you know, the Constitution provides habeas corpus 94 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:38.199 can only be suspended in times of rebellion or invasion. 95 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:41.279 But Stephen Miller was going around apparently saying that Trump 96 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:43.680 can suspend it whenever he feels like, because he can 97 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:48.519 do that. Professor, how God bless Stephen Miller. How often 98 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.879 has habeas corpus actually been suspended in American history? What 99 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:54.879 circumstances traditionally justify suspending it? 100 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:59.399 Well, you know, the Congress in our Constitution it does 101 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:02.560 say that Congress has the ability in times of emergency 102 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.360 to suspend habeas corpus, to really postpone our right to 103 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:10.079 appear in court. And Lincoln during the Civil War did 104 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:15.160 try to unilaterally himself suspend the writ to suspend habeas corpus. Now, 105 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:17.839 the courts came back at him and said, rightly, in 106 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:21.439 my opinion, no, the Constitution's clear. Only Congress can do this. 107 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.839 You can't do it on your own. And Lincoln, being 108 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:28.120 a serious constitutional thinker nothing, of course, like Donald Trump 109 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:30.720 or Stephen Miller, said Okay, I'm going to abide by 110 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:33.199 what the courts said here. I'm going to seek the 111 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:36.079 suspension of the writ from Congress. But the fact that 112 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.199 Lincoln did it, I think is a lot of the 113 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.279 fuel here. That Trump sees himself as a kind of Lincoln. 114 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.519 We've seen it from other presidents too, that Nixon himself 115 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:49.360 compared himself to Lincoln, talked about his emergency powers and 116 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:52.920 in ordering crimes against his political opponents. Nixon did, of course, 117 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.040 you know, run and run around the writ of Habeas corpus. 118 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.279 So you know, there are precedents in some of the 119 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.160 worst moments in American history, but they really don't support 120 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.240 in any way this unilateral suspension that Miller was arguing for. 121 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:07.560 And that's what the memo says. 122 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.439 It points out why that Lincoln moment was one that 123 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.639 was corrected, why other presidents who have tried to do it, 124 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:14.399 I should say too. 125 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:15.959 George Bush g W. 126 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:19.160 Bush tried to suspend the rid of habeas corpus in 127 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.040 regard to Guantanamo, and he was corrected by the courts. 128 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.839 And in the Comedian case they said, I don't think so. 129 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:27.720 There's no such thing as a law free zone under 130 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:30.040 the control of the United States, And all of these 131 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:33.040 things are in that memo correcting Miller and trying to 132 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:33.720 educate I. 133 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:35.079 I'm sure Trump didn't read it. 134 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:37.879 It's way too long, but at least trying to educate 135 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:38.560 this president. 136 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:41.480 You had me at Trump thinks he's like Lincoln. I'm 137 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:44.639 still on that except John Wilkes Booth would have been 138 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.040 a much bigger fan. Corey, I got to ask you 139 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:50.160 about the Situation Room. This place that's built for nuclear 140 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:52.720 threats and terrorist attacks and military crises. This is the 141 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.920 room where they famously tracked Osama bin Laden. Donald Trump promised, 142 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.519 as you know, many times, to release the Epstein files, 143 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.240 and now, according to reporting from Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, 144 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:07.160 Trump's top officials held repeated meetings in the Situation Room 145 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:11.160 to figure out how to contain the Epstein fallout, not 146 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.639 to contain predators, not to expose predators, not to help victims, 147 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:20.000 to contain the story. Bush's senior team, including JD Vance, 148 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:23.800 Susie Wilds, Pam Bondi, Cashptel, Dan Bongino, who I'm sure 149 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:26.639 is one of the leaguers, Todd Blanche and others had 150 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:30.600 multiple emergency in the situation room. Okay, the same room 151 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.240 of the bin Laden raid was now being used by 152 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.120 Trump's people to strategize around their bosses. Many many connections 153 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:41.199 to a convicted child rapist and child sex trafficker Corey. 154 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.240 I just these guys spend ten years telling us there's 155 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.199 this secret cabal of elites covering up sex crimes, and 156 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.560 then they get into power and immediately form a secret 157 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.279 cabal of elites to cover up sex crimes. 158 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.639 The irony as sothic. Trump could use it as gravy. 159 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:57.480 I have so many questions for you about all this, 160 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:00.800 But what was your reaction when you first heard about 161 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:05.120 these senior officials having Again, this was not about protecting America, 162 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:09.279 This was about protecting their boss from their boss's own resume. 163 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:12.199 Well, the first thing to say is I'm grateful that 164 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.480 we have a light being shined on all of this. 165 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.000 One of the problems with the debacle of the Epstein files, 166 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:21.600 aside from the horror of Epstein's crime himself and the 167 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:25.959 president's close friendship with this person who was a horrific 168 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.040 sex trafficker. 169 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:29.839 And abuser of miners, is. 170 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.200 The failure of transparency, the ability to hide all of this. 171 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:36.759 And of course, exactly as you say, my first instinct was, 172 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.279 thankfully we have this reporting. At least we're getting to 173 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.039 see what was going on behind the scenes, and we 174 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:44.960 see the tension that isn't just an irony, it's something 175 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.639 that they were aware of that. You have Bongino, you 176 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:51.480 have cash Betel crying out against the supposed deep state 177 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.320 and the idea that there's the secret cabal, and now 178 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:57.200 all of a sudden, they realize in the Oval Office 179 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:00.600 in these discussions, we're part of it. We're part of it, 180 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.200 and they're calling for release of files. They're criticizing the 181 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:06.440 attempt to hide. 182 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:06.519 All of it. 183 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:09.279 But increasingly, my sense is that as they learn what's 184 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:12.399 in it, they realize they really are part of this 185 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:16.360 deep state conspiracy that they've been railing against all the time. 186 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.080 And you know, I. 187 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.039 Think that's part of what the reporting shows. And of 188 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:24.399 course I think the other horrific thing is the Pam 189 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:27.480 Bondies of the world, you know, trying to cover all 190 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.000 of this up, not thinking about the horror, not thinking 191 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:33.559 about the wrongdoing, but thinking how can we protect this 192 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:36.639 president at all costs? And at some point, you know, 193 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.799 there's politics, but there's also a deep immorality, and that's 194 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:41.279 of course at the heart of all of this. 195 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:44.440 Yeah, I mean, in June of last year, BAMBONDI told Trump, 196 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:46.840 We've gone through the files. There's not a lot there 197 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.240 a lot of child pornography. We can't put any of 198 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:52.039 that out. There are some mentions of you, but nothing substantive. 199 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.919 There are thousands and thousands and thousands of mentions of. 200 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:55.480 This man there. 201 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:58.440 I mean, they're in the situation room. And my favorite 202 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:02.320 detailed professor could be the Rump reportedly wasn't even in 203 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:07.759 these meetings. The president wasn't running the cover up. His 204 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:11.320 staff was running a cover up about him. Imagine being 205 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.759 so politically radioactive, your own administration is having emergency ops 206 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:17.919 without you because you're a security risk to yourself. Now, 207 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.519 according to the article, Vance, who again is only concerned 208 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.000 with his becoming president someday, everything is filtered through that, 209 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.919 and he was floating the idea of having more transparency, 210 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.080 maybe getting Tucker Carlson to interview de Lane Maxwell in prison. 211 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.519 By contrast, and Wiles and Blair, they just dismissed the 212 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.480 whole thing is fringe noise. And Bongino of course comes 213 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:38.080 off as the guy who knows how bad this is 214 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:40.639 and says this will be Trump's Iran contra. And it's 215 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:43.679 pretty clear that Bongino is one of the leakers. But wow, 216 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:48.120 some of them wanted greater transparency while others favored containment. 217 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:52.519 This has all been leaked, and apparently they were flipping 218 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:54.919 out yesterday because they are quite convinced that Haberman and 219 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:59.320 Swann have audio recordings of all of these individuals and 220 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.120 one of the most secure your places on Earth discussing 221 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:07.200 covering up child rape. I mean, what does that tell 222 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:09.559 you about the internal split, that we know this much 223 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:10.279 about this meeting? 224 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:13.559 Well, I think it shows you how the weakness of 225 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.120 this president is starting to emerge, and this turns out 226 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:19.000 to be his achilles heel. It's one of the hopeful 227 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.919 things about the story that Congress did eventually push back 228 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:23.879 and demand transparency. 229 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:25.360 So that's one thing we're. 230 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.639 Also starting to get a sense of the internal dynamics 231 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:30.120 of JD. Van's trying to save himself. He wants to 232 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.600 be president. Obviously, one way that he can become president 233 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:37.000 is to have this president impeached or be forced to 234 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:39.879 step down. And the scandal over these files might be 235 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:42.240 part of it. And somebody who I don't see winning 236 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:45.200 a primary, you know, on his own, might have a 237 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.519 real chance if he's the sitting president of the United States, 238 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.279 and so the incentives are there politically for him to 239 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:56.159 demand transparency. It too in the sense that he knows, 240 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:58.360 you know, that Trump is going to be implicated in 241 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:01.799 these files. The incompetence also stands out that Pam Bondi, 242 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.080 you know, trying to cover up for the president, also 243 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:07.960 release files unknowingly perhaps that you know, showing that he 244 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:11.120 was implicated, of course, and so you know, it's just 245 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:16.279 a sort of cacophony of incompetence and craven selfishness and 246 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.399 as you said, covering up child rape. One big picture 247 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.759 thing is one of the biggest dangers of the Office 248 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:27.000 of the White House is the tradition of secrecy, in 249 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.080 which basically we can hide crimes and we can hide 250 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.200 immorality underneath this veil of secrecy, and we're seeing it 251 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:38.320 here in the extreme because it is hiding complicity in 252 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:41.879 the crimes of one of the most notorious sex criminals 253 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:43.000 in American history. 254 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:45.600 Yeah, it's just madness. 255 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.480 I mean, as Donald Trump's makeup has made me say 256 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:50.679 many times, do you, professor, the cover up is worse 257 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.759 than the crime. I mean, our history is full of 258 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.639 scandals where the attempt to cover it up became much 259 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.919 more damaging than the underlying conduct. I don't know that 260 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.080 Lessons repeating here. The underlying conduct is pretty awful, But 261 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:05.360 I mean, we've seen this part of the movie before, 262 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:08.519 haven't we. They always create larger problems for themselves. 263 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:10.799 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a famous line that 264 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:14.039 history doesn't repeat at rhymes, and I think we see 265 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:15.720 that here in the Nixon case. 266 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.159 Certainly, the idea that there's. 267 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.360 An awareness of the crimes committed, serious underlying crimes in 268 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.000 the Nixon case, not just Watergate, but the at least 269 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.480 the ten other crimes that were being investigated at the 270 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.240 time of the pardon of Nixon by Ford, including an 271 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.840 attempted assault on Daniel Elsberg and other protesters that the 272 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:36.000 Special Prosecutor's office. 273 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:36.960 Was looking into. 274 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.879 And as these crimes became apparent, and as Watergate became 275 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:44.720 a parent, they dug in by trying to pay people 276 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.120 off as hush money. And then that cover up became 277 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.960 the real scandal that we found on the Smoking Gong 278 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:53.879 tape that took down Nixon. Now, what's the difference, I 279 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:57.000 said at rhymes, It doesn't repeat. Some of that pattern 280 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.639 seems very similar here, the cover up being part of 281 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:00.360 the problem. 282 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.639 But at least in that case Nixon was in charge, he. 283 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:07.080 Was ordering the hush money, he was at least being informed. 284 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:09.879 Also, the loyalty is remarkable to me. 285 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:12.559 In the Nixon example, where his staff or is Haldeman 286 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:16.480 and Erlickman is chief of staff and high level assistance. 287 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:18.840 We're saying, you know, if you need us not. 288 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:21.200 To be here to take the blame, we'll do it. 289 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.559 They really love this guy. In the case of Trump, 290 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:26.399 that's not the case at all. A he's not in 291 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:28.600 control of anything, he's not even in the room, and 292 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:30.600 be no way or any of these people taking the 293 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:32.519 fall for him. 294 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:34.519 It kind of makes all their attempts to steal elections 295 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:35.799 seem so innocent and wholesome. 296 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:36.279 Doesn't it. 297 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.039 We got to take a break, but when we come back, 298 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:41.559 let's talk about the latest United States Postal Service proposal 299 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.799 to block mail ballots. Spoiler alert, it's designed to help 300 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:47.000 one party. 301 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:48.799 This is the Oath in the Office. We'll be right back. 302 00:14:57.480 --> 00:14:58.960 Welcome back to the Oath in the Office. I'm John 303 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.039 Fiegel Sank Professor bretsch Us. Postal Service has proposed this 304 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:04.480 new rule, and I'm not sure I understand this. I 305 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:05.799 might need you to hold my hand here a bit. 306 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.639 It would allow the Post Office to refuse to deliver 307 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:14.759 mail ballots in and two states if those states refuse 308 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:20.360 to turn over their voter role information to the federal government. Now, Corey, 309 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:22.799 I'm old enough to remember racist talking a whole lot 310 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:23.759 about states rights. 311 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:25.200 But this is crazy. 312 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:27.159 States would have to create a list of mail voters 313 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:30.200 that employees of the service would review for eligibility, and 314 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:34.240 the Postal Service could decide who didn't get to vote. 315 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:37.080 And the Postal Service could not even send the ballots 316 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.960 to a state if the state didn't give them private information. 317 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:42.480 What is your initial constitutional reaction to this? 318 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:43.639 Wow? 319 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.240 You know we use this phrase self coup all the 320 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.200 time on this show to talk about the ways that 321 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:51.120 Donald Trump is trying to use the presidency to usurp 322 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:54.759 and destroy our constitution. And you know, he did it 323 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.679 during January sixth in one way, and we've been focused 324 00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:59.799 on trying to repair that way. There's something called the 325 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:04.200 Doctoral Count Reformact that keeps the events of January sixth 326 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:07.840 from repeating themselves, from using that technique to destroy democracy. 327 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.879 So he's just gonna pivot and find another way. Our 328 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:13.919 elections under the Constitution are supposed to be controlled by 329 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.000 the states and local government, and yet you have this 330 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.120 institution of the Post Office, and Trump is trying to 331 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.440 commandeer it to reverse what our constitution says and to 332 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.279 really take control. Of course, he doesn't have to eliminate 333 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:30.000 all votes for Democratic candidates. He can just tram a 334 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.679 sliver of them in order to get that difference. And 335 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.279 that's what he's trying to do. And this really unprecedented 336 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:36.000 and illegal. 337 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.200 Make it harder here, a little bit, make it harder there, 338 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.559 a little bit, voter id save Act, ladies with a 339 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.279 new last name, whatever they can do to just shave 340 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:45.519 off the vote count a little bit state by state. 341 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.919 The Constitution I thought, I seem to remember you telling me, 342 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.200 once generally leaves election administration to the states, is that 343 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.759 still a significant principle or do we not care about 344 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:56.759 that anymore in this country? 345 00:16:57.320 --> 00:16:58.759 You know that's the law. 346 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:01.720 But when Donald Trump says he wants to federalize or 347 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:05.160 nationalize elections, this is what he's talking about, usurping the 348 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.279 check of federal power by the states. 349 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.519 And it was kind of a brilliant thing to do in. 350 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.839 Some ways, to have multiple checks on power and federalism. 351 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.200 Although it's traditionally been used. 352 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.640 By racis to try to usurp the right to vote, 353 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.279 now we're in a bizarrel world where we're seeing actually 354 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:24.480 now it can be used to protect the right to vote. 355 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:26.920 And Trump sees that, and what does he want to do. 356 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.519 He wants to create a vulnerability to use a supposedly 357 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.119 benign part of the federal government, the post Office, to 358 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:34.839 usurp it. 359 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:36.480 There is a precedent for it. 360 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.000 I mean, if you go all the way back to 361 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.400 the seventeen nineties and lead up in particular to the 362 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.200 eighteen hundred election, Jefferson and Madison are writing to each 363 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.559 other about the fact that they're worried that their mail 364 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.880 is being read and really that the Federalist Party and 365 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:54.119 John Adams are spying on them using the postal service. 366 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.079 And the postal service was an enormously important part of 367 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.599 our government. At one point it was protected from residential 368 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:04.240 control who had an independence to it. That was ended 369 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.640 in the Myers versus Nebraska case where the Supreme Court 370 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:09.880 essentially put it under the control. 371 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:10.200 Of the president. 372 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.680 And the worry all along has been from scholars and 373 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.960 from politicians. This gives communication control over the president, all 374 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:18.720 sorts of control. 375 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:20.119 And look at this all of a. 376 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.160 Sudden, that fear of the abuse of national power by 377 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.119 the post Office is being revived once again. And with 378 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.799 this one proposal, which really is a proposal, let's say 379 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.960 what it is to cheat in this upcoming election. 380 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:36.519 Right, I mean, could the postal Service legally determine voter eligibility? 381 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:38.960 I mean that sounds crazy, Like what worries you the 382 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:42.319 most about the federal government becoming involved in deciding whose 383 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.200 ballots are allowed to travel through mail? 384 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.400 Well, as we know with Trump's technique, and you see 385 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.359 this in the Save Act and the voter id push 386 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.720 to and as Stacy Abrams explained on this podcast, so well, 387 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.720 you know every state has some form of ID. They're 388 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:01.640 trying to create requirements of ID that will exclude some voters, 389 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:03.880 and that technique will be used here too. 390 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:05.160 They'll say, all we're. 391 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.559 Trying to do is determine a neutral, simple thing, are 392 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:10.960 you an eligible voter or not? And not send you 393 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:14.279 a ballot If it's fraudulent. Well, that's not what's going 394 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:15.759 to go on. What's going to go on is that 395 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:19.319 definition of valid or invalid voter is going to be 396 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:25.319 used to big surprise, destroy Democratic Party voters. And that's why, Yes, 397 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.160 it's not just dangerous. It could work because it sounds benign, 398 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.400 just as voter ID sounds benign, and yet they're able 399 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:36.200 to reshape it, possibly into this technique to steal an election. 400 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:38.200 We should be awfully worried about it. 401 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:40.799