1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:44,679 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 5: It's time for another ask us anything you asked and 17 00:00:50,759 --> 00:00:51,560 we answered. 18 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 3: All right, We're off to a rousing start here. 19 00:00:55,359 --> 00:00:59,479 Speaker 5: We asked our listeners on social media to ask us 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,320 any thing at all, and so we have a number 21 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,760 of different things about cases from around Virginia, about the 22 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,680 Colonial Parkway Murders case, and even a couple of personal questions. 23 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,719 Let's go ahead and kick it off. You were going 24 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,079 to start with questions from Annie. Annie has both a 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,879 personal question and a case related question, So we'll start 26 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,239 with mister Thomas. Annie wants to know how did you 27 00:01:24,359 --> 00:01:27,120 meet your partner Pamela Arnois. 28 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: We met online on an online dating service. 29 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 3: You did not know this. You didn't know this? No, 30 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:34,840 which one? 31 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 2: Wait a wait? You and I have been working together 32 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:38,560 for ten years and you didn't know that. 33 00:01:39,079 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 3: I didn't know that. 34 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,359 Speaker 2: When I first moved to Los Angeles, I was single 35 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,359 and ready to mingle, and I ended up establishing a 36 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,760 profile on some of the online dating sites. One of 37 00:01:51,799 --> 00:01:54,519 the women I went out on a few days with 38 00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:56,920 didn't end up being a great romance, but we ended 39 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,000 up being a friend. She actually had written a book 40 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,239 about online dating. I read the book and talked to 41 00:02:04,319 --> 00:02:07,280 her about it, and she knew all about how online 42 00:02:07,319 --> 00:02:09,319 dating worked, and as a matter of fact, as part 43 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,639 of research for her book, she went out on I'm 44 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,680 not joking three hundred and sixty five dates, one date 45 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,639 a night for a full year researching her book. 46 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,199 Speaker 3: That sounds horrifying. 47 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: And her book was called Fearless Manhunting, which I loved. 48 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,599 Speaker 3: Wow, what a great title. 49 00:02:32,439 --> 00:02:36,159 Speaker 2: Her name is Liz Kelly, and she's a wonderful person. 50 00:02:36,199 --> 00:02:38,199 We're still friends to this day. One of the things 51 00:02:38,199 --> 00:02:41,280 she explained to me was online dating. And this would 52 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,840 have been back in two thousand and seven, which sounds 53 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:46,240 like a million years ago. This is probably two thousand 54 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,680 and six because I hadn't met Pamily yet. It's a 55 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,680 big business and interestingly, when you sign up for a profile, 56 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,400 a number of those dating sites are all run by 57 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,319 the same companies. Yeah, and so there's a company that around. 58 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:01,719 I don't know if they're still around now, but they 59 00:03:01,719 --> 00:03:05,960 were called okay Cupid, and they handled the back end 60 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,560 of a whole bunch of different dating sites. So Pamela 61 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:12,759 and I were both single and we met online, and 62 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,360 I had gone out on a whole bunch of online dates, 63 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,439 which is actually really fun for a newly single guy, 64 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,120 and she had gone out on a whole bunch of 65 00:03:22,199 --> 00:03:25,719 online dates. One of the things that we discovered again 66 00:03:25,759 --> 00:03:28,560 through my friend Liz, was that when you sign up 67 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,159 for a profile, the talent pool, if you will, is 68 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:37,479 actually dumping in from a variety of different sites, which 69 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,879 I did not know. I remember when I started going 70 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:42,680 out on these dates. Sometimes the women would say, so, 71 00:03:42,879 --> 00:03:46,360 how long have you been on name website here? And 72 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,599 for example, some of them were on a website called Nerve. 73 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:58,240 Nerve had a very sexual vibe to it, which but 74 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:01,000 the assumption they were making an assumb that I was 75 00:04:01,039 --> 00:04:03,879 on the same site as they were, and the truth 76 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:06,159 is I was on a completely different site with a 77 00:04:06,439 --> 00:04:10,159 different set of parameters. I was on what was then 78 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,680 called Salon Personals. Solon is an online magazine. 79 00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 3: Wow, you did the high scale stuff. 80 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was more high rosse scales Salon, which is 81 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,680 still around. Solon is an online magazine and they cover 82 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,279 the arts and politics and current events and stuff like that. 83 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,920 Cerebrul might be a little strong, it's a smart publication. 84 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,040 And they had the capability to sign up for a profile. 85 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,920 So I had looked at Match and some of the 86 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,600 other real popular ones, and they didn't really quite do 87 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,399 it for me. I probably had a profile on Match 88 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,399 at some point, but I was on Salon Personals. Pamela 89 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,839 was on a completely different site called Act for Love, 90 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,720 which had a very different vibe, okay, And so I 91 00:04:55,759 --> 00:04:59,959 didn't realize until I met Liz that these websites were dumb. 92 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,959 Bring tens of thousands of people into a shared talent pool. 93 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,959 So even though you thought you were on Nerve or 94 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:13,160 Salon or Act for Love or there's dozens of sites, 95 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,560 and they get even more specialized. Sometimes they're set up 96 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,600 for obviously for the LGBTQ community, people that want to 97 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,000 date that are Jewish and want to date other Jewish folks. Ye, 98 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,439 all kinds of specialties. So there's all these different specialties, 99 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,279 and then there's like real super unusual specialties, like women 100 00:05:33,319 --> 00:05:36,040 that want to meet farmers. They've got this romantic idea 101 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,959 that they're going to meet some guy who lives in 102 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,040 Iowa that owns a farm. Whatever. So when Pamela and 103 00:05:44,079 --> 00:05:47,319 I met, I had a pretty had I think down 104 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,240 to a science, which is I only met in public places. 105 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,720 I would meet for coffee or a drink, and that 106 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,920 way you're not locked into whole evening if it doesn't 107 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,959 go well. And I was polite and respectful to everyone 108 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,839 that I met, But every once in a while you'd 109 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,800 meet somebody and it was very clear they'd grossly lied 110 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:13,839 about their age. For example, this is very common. And 111 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,279 I'm not talking about trimming three or five years off. 112 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:19,480 I'm talking about a picture that was twenty five years old. Yes, 113 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,560 and then you meet them and you're like, oh, yay, 114 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,040 look like that person in that picture, but not exactly. 115 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,160 I had a strict policy. I typically meet for coffee 116 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,120 and that has a beginning and an end. Usually something 117 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,160 like that would be maybe an hour and chat and 118 00:06:35,519 --> 00:06:37,720 ask questions and get to know each other and then 119 00:06:37,759 --> 00:06:40,879 figure out would we like to go out again? Sometimes 120 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,720 if things really click, you might go out that same evening. 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,519 You might I might say do you have plans for 122 00:06:45,519 --> 00:06:48,399 dinner or something like that, Yeah, And I would say 123 00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:50,560 I went out on a bunch of days. I was, 124 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:53,480 like I said, new single and ready to mingle, and 125 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,240 I had fun. I met a lot of really great women. 126 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,519 It's not always a big romance, right, but sometimes it is. 127 00:07:02,639 --> 00:07:05,920 And I met some terrific people, and several of them 128 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,639 I went out with for a while. And probably a 129 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:12,040 year into it is when I met Pamela and I 130 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,439 really liked her. And it turns out we met in 131 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,000 Culver City, California, which is La adjacent. It's where Sony 132 00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:23,560 Studios is, and we met at Starbucks and had a 133 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,759 very nice evening. So it was really fun, and then 134 00:07:26,959 --> 00:07:29,040 we made a second date and then I think it's 135 00:07:29,079 --> 00:07:32,600 on the second date that we realized we had both 136 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,199 attended the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. She's a year 137 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,920 older than I am, so she would have been one 138 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:41,399 year ahead of me. Talk about a small world. Here 139 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:42,680 we are all the way on the other side of 140 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,759 the country. We're living in Los Angeles, and we're talking 141 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:49,360 about going to school in Amherst, Massachusetts at the university. 142 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,920 Although it's a big place now it's like thirty thousand students, 143 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,439 but back then it was twenty three thousand or something, 144 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,600 so we'd never met before. But it's funny as we 145 00:07:58,639 --> 00:08:01,639 got into more detail, it turns out like we started 146 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:06,040 talking about different events like concerts and big gatherings, and 147 00:08:06,079 --> 00:08:08,680 we were often at the same place at the same time. 148 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,759 But I remember her face appeared shocked when we got 149 00:08:12,759 --> 00:08:14,759 to the place, where did you go to college? And 150 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,399 it turns out we had gone to the same school. 151 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,639 That really surprised her, because when you're in Los Angeles, 152 00:08:21,639 --> 00:08:23,519 you're not going to meet that many people that went 153 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,439 to the University of Massachusetts at Amborersgy. We started dating 154 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,839 in two thousand and seven and it's twenty twenty five now, 155 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:34,519 so we've been dating for eighteen years. Nice. 156 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 5: The experience of online dating is very different from a 157 00:08:38,759 --> 00:08:41,480 woman's perspective than it is from a guy's perspective. 158 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: Oh, I have no doubt. And by the way, in 159 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,440 two thousand and seven, this was actually considered edgy. People 160 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,559 would say to me, Oh, where'd you meet Pamela? Oh, 161 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,080 we met online. And people are like, oh, I don't 162 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,200 know if I could do that. Yeah, gosh, that sounds risky, edgy, whatever. 163 00:08:56,519 --> 00:08:58,399 And the truth is, if you think about it and 164 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,440 approach it in a say, systematic way, it's actually a 165 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,919 terrific way to meet people. I think it's a fascinating 166 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,559 use of search engine technology because you answer a whole 167 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:12,279 bunch of questions and what they're trying to do is 168 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,039 find people that are compatible with you. It worked out 169 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:16,799 really well. 170 00:09:17,399 --> 00:09:20,279 Speaker 3: I had a very different experience with online dating for me. 171 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,279 Speaker 2: Was this in Virginia or it was in Virginia? 172 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,039 Speaker 5: No, it was in Virginia, and I was on one 173 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,039 of those weird offshoot sites called plenty of Fish because 174 00:09:31,039 --> 00:09:31,759 I didn't. 175 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,039 Speaker 2: I remember that one Okay Cupid. I actually think when 176 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:37,279 you were doing plenty of Fish, you were actually doing 177 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:38,399 Okay Cupid. 178 00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:42,399 Speaker 5: Probably it was. It was an unmitigated disaster. I met 179 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,639 some truly awful people and had some truly awful dates. 180 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,200 It really like, at that point, after I'd gone on 181 00:09:49,279 --> 00:09:52,399 maybe three or four just really catastrophic. 182 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 3: I could not ask for this to be any worse dates. 183 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 5: I was like that said, I'm done, and so I 184 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,799 just kind of shut down my profile and all those 185 00:10:00,159 --> 00:10:02,759 and I was like, whatever, if I'm alone forever, it's fine. 186 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,519 Speaker 3: So I ended up in a short. 187 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 5: Lived, unfortunately abusive relationship, and after a year I got 188 00:10:12,399 --> 00:10:16,399 out of that and started working at the high school 189 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:20,559 where I currently teach, and I met my life partner Mark, 190 00:10:20,799 --> 00:10:24,159 because he also was new to the high school where 191 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,960 I currently teach. We were coming in and teaching in 192 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,279 two separate departments. 193 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: You were you were the new kids. 194 00:10:30,759 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 5: We were with the new teacher cohort of that particular year. 195 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,519 The main thing that I noticed was his sense of humor, 196 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,600 because he is wildly funny. 197 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,759 Speaker 3: I think that will serve a man very well in. 198 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 5: Just about any situation, because I love a guy who 199 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,320 has a great sense of humor and doesn't take himself 200 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,519 too terribly seriously when it really comes down to it. Yeah, 201 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,279 that that is how we met through school, and so 202 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,840 we have taught together over the last four years and 203 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,720 are again kind of like you're in Pamela's. Our relationship 204 00:11:04,759 --> 00:11:08,720 has lasted longer than most marriages. Oh yeah, we're happy 205 00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:11,240 the way that we are. We're life partners. Neither of 206 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,039 us has any desire to formalize the relationship through legal entanglement. 207 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:18,559 We're just we're each other's and we just call each 208 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:19,440 other life partners. 209 00:11:19,879 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: I like to say girlfriend and boyfriend. Pamela hates that. 210 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,639 Speaker 3: I used to do that too, and Mark was like, 211 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:26,519 can you stop? 212 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 5: His boyfriend makes me sound like I'm twelve, and I'm like, cool, 213 00:11:30,039 --> 00:11:31,240 we'll go with life partner. 214 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 3: Then, how about that. 215 00:11:32,759 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: She doesn't like girlfriend boyfriend? She said, that makes it 216 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:37,519 sound like we started dating last week. 217 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 5: I guess when you're over a certain age, girlfriend and 218 00:11:40,519 --> 00:11:44,159 boyfriend doesn't necessarily work. It's like my parents calling each 219 00:11:44,159 --> 00:11:46,360 other there this is my lady friend, or this is 220 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:49,200 my gentleman friend. Of like, we're not there yet, So 221 00:11:49,279 --> 00:11:50,840 we're just gonna go with life partner. 222 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, so we say partner. To be honest, that's 223 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,279 been foisted upon me. I would just say girlfriend. 224 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,639 Speaker 3: You would just call Pamela your girlfriend. 225 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: We're not married, and I've been married before, and interestingly, 226 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,679 she's never been married. Regarding the institution of marriage, I 227 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,519 don't know whether I haven't served the institution well or 228 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,159 it hasn't served me well. But I'm done with the 229 00:12:14,279 --> 00:12:15,039 getting married thing. 230 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can see it. 231 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 5: I never have either, and I have just reached a 232 00:12:19,279 --> 00:12:20,840 point where no, I'm fine. 233 00:12:21,039 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm good. I am I've said before, and Pamela 234 00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:26,840 will roll arise when she hears this. I think I'm 235 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,519 a better boyfriend than I am a husband. 236 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,879 Speaker 5: I would have no basis to comment on that, but 237 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,759 I'll let Pamela be the judge of that. 238 00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, but enough about salon personals. Maybe we should talk 239 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:40,559 about other questions. 240 00:12:40,799 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 3: Yes for us, and I love that. 241 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 5: Annie, thank you, because we don't get to spend a 242 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:48,080 whole lot of time talking about the human side of 243 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,559 Bill and Kristen as opposed to the victim's advocate, true crime, 244 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,440 hardened reporter side. 245 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 3: So thank you for asking that way. Appreciate it. 246 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 5: Annie's other question is one that I think is fast, 247 00:12:59,879 --> 00:13:02,279 and it's one that I've actually wanted to do a 248 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,360 episode on for a while now, But when I've gone 249 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,480 down the rabbit hole on this case, I've realized it's 250 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:10,399 actually a little too big for me to handle. And 251 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,559 it's the case of Johnny Gosh, who was one of 252 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,039 the first kids on the milk carton. So her question is, 253 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,799 what do you honestly think happened to Johnny Gosh and 254 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,679 the other local paper boys that went missing in Iowa 255 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,879 in the eighties and nineties. Yeah, it's a great question 256 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,159 because I know that there are many people who take 257 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,679 the case at face value, as there were young people 258 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,440 who were kidnapped off the streets. But there is also 259 00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:41,320 a much darker theory that it is a human trafficking ring, 260 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,879 a sex trafficking ring. There's a really long, deep, detailed, 261 00:13:47,039 --> 00:13:50,080 and thoroughly dark story that I had read a couple 262 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,320 of years back on CNN from Johnny Gosh's mother and 263 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:58,240 various other people who think that he was kidnapped and 264 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:02,720 sold into the child sex trafficking market, which is a 265 00:14:02,879 --> 00:14:03,879 terrifying idea. 266 00:14:04,039 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: And because I have not done enough. 267 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 5: Research, like deep dive research on this case to be 268 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:12,679 able to comment on whether I think there is truth 269 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,039 to that or not, I will say Annie that I 270 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,120 think there's every possibility that could be what happened. 271 00:14:19,639 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: I want to look more into it. 272 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 5: I would love to be able to cover this for 273 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,039 mind Over Murder, but I don't even know how I 274 00:14:26,039 --> 00:14:28,360 would begin to find the time to do the research 275 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,200 right now to do it justice. 276 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,759 Speaker 2: I know a little bit about the case. For those 277 00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:35,360 of you that are not familiar, Johnny Gosh was a 278 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,879 paper boy. I was a paper boy as well up 279 00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:44,399 in Massachusetts who disappeared Gosh. It's September fifth, nineteen eighty two, 280 00:14:44,399 --> 00:14:46,960 which sounds like a million years ago now, between six 281 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,360 and seven am, which is when you're out doing your 282 00:14:49,399 --> 00:14:52,559 paper route in Des Moines, Iowa. There's always been a 283 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,840 lot of question as to what happened. If Johnny were 284 00:14:55,879 --> 00:14:58,320 alive today, he'd be fifty five years old, but he 285 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,200 was twelve at the time of his disa appearance. It's 286 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,360 a very disturbing case, and it is one of those 287 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,279 situations where Johnny appears to have disappeared off the face 288 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,840 of the earth while out on his paper route. I 289 00:15:09,879 --> 00:15:12,799 think there's a possibility that he may have been moved 290 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,480 into sex trafficking, which is tragic, but then also equally 291 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,679 tragic as the possibility that someone, an offender, attacked him 292 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,879 and killed him and secured his body somewhere so that 293 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,120 it's never been found. My sense is that this is 294 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,559 one of the first cases that was on those milk cartons. 295 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,399 There's another case on hats if I'm saying. 296 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: That, yeah, I know exactly what he means. I think 297 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:37,919 it's but I'm not sure. 298 00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:39,639 Speaker 2: It's one of those. 299 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 3: Things for me. 300 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's one of those names that you read it, 301 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,360 but you're never quite entirely sure how to say it 302 00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:47,559 out loud. That's my fault. But yeah, it's a really 303 00:15:47,759 --> 00:15:51,200 interesting case. Actually, Annie, I'm glad you put that back 304 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,840 on our radar because it is something I had down 305 00:15:53,879 --> 00:15:57,279 on my very large list of topics to cover. So 306 00:15:57,519 --> 00:15:59,840 now I think I'll try to dust that list off 307 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,159 and see what we can find. 308 00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:04,879 Speaker 2: There are some people feel that Johnny may have been 309 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:10,960 trafficked into a child sex trafficking ring based in Omaha, Nebraska, 310 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,879 supposedly so exciting. It is one of those things where 311 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:18,200 as a young boy he was never found and it's 312 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,039 a profoundly disturbing case. 313 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 5: Our next question is from loyal listener Susan, who we 314 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:27,559 missed at Crime con this year, but Susan does come 315 00:16:27,559 --> 00:16:30,200 to crime con and hangs out with us whenever she can. So, Susan, 316 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,200 we hope you come to Vegas, Susan, says Kristen and Bill. 317 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,080 In a recent podcast, you reminded listeners that Alan Wade 318 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,480 Wilmer Senior burned his boat, presumably to destroy evidence, DNA, 319 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,039 et cetera. My question is what happened to his distinctive 320 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,279 truck with the distinctive license plate. Couldn't it also possibly 321 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:49,919 contain evidence or DNA. 322 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: I can tell you what I have been told from 323 00:16:53,039 --> 00:16:58,080 reliable sources. Our now retired FBI agent told me definitively 324 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,840 that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, who had been a waterman, 325 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,839 as listeners to the podcast know, and then had become 326 00:17:05,759 --> 00:17:11,640 a woodcutter. Wilmer shifted over from being a waterman to 327 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,480 being a woodshock I'm putting air quotes around that when fishing, crabbing, 328 00:17:16,519 --> 00:17:21,200 and oystering, yields on the Chesapeake really plummeted. Folks that 329 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,000 are from that area of Virginia, Maryland, Delaware will recall 330 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,240 that there were a lot of problems with water pollution 331 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,599 in the Chesapeake Bay and the rivers surrounding that flow 332 00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:35,440 into the Chesapeake yields were vomiting, and so these watermen 333 00:17:35,519 --> 00:17:38,240 weren't able to make a living, and that's how Wilmer 334 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,240 ended up transitioning over to becoming a tree cutter. Wilmer's boat, 335 00:17:42,319 --> 00:17:45,319 the Denny Wade, which is the boat we see in photographs, 336 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:48,680 named for his two kids, was then parked at his 337 00:17:48,839 --> 00:17:54,079 house in Lancaster County, Virginia, and I found this exceptionally odd, 338 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,920 But the FBI told me that Wilmer earned his boat. 339 00:17:59,279 --> 00:18:03,799 This all struck me as extremely odd because, as I 340 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,119 understand it, in the latter part of Wilmer's life he 341 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:11,000 died in December twenty seventeen, he was struggling financially. People 342 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,039 that I've talked to bought and sold vehicles, for example, 343 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,000 cars and trucks and things like that to help Wilmer 344 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:21,119 out because he was very short of money. Given the 345 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,880 fact that he was selling his vehicles and other things 346 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,519 along those lines, I find it exceptionally odd that he 347 00:18:28,519 --> 00:18:32,319 would burn the Denny Wade to the ground out behind 348 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,119 his home. Even if the Denny Wade, which is a 349 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,880 wooden hulled fishing boat, had gotten dry rod or whatever 350 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,400 and wasn't in a condition to be sold. Boats like 351 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,680 that have all kinds of fixtures, metal parts, and lots 352 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,599 of different tools on board that are used by the 353 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,799 waterman that could have easily been sold off. So I'm 354 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,599 really surprised he didn't find a way to scrap his 355 00:18:55,759 --> 00:18:58,960 boat or sell off the parts of the Denny Wade 356 00:18:59,039 --> 00:19:01,960 instead of burning the thing to the ground. I think 357 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,119 that's highly suspicious. I think that by the time twenty 358 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,440 seventeen rolled around, Wilmer, who had managed to get away 359 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,480 with at least three murders that we know of, Robin Edwards, 360 00:19:13,519 --> 00:19:17,680 David Knobling, and Teresa lind Spaw Howell, and perhaps others 361 00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:20,880 in the Colonial Parkway murders and other cases, he had 362 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,880 a strong survival instinct, and I think he had recognized 363 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,920 that by twenty seventeen, the art and science of DNA 364 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:32,599 might allow the FBI or the Virginia State Police or 365 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:36,880 other law enforcement agencies to discover DNA on board the 366 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,160 Denny Wade, even though it had been sitting in his 367 00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:42,240 driveway for a number of years, And I think that's 368 00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:44,039 why he burned the boat. I think he was trying 369 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:47,039 to hide evidence and our FBI agent said the same thing, 370 00:19:47,799 --> 00:19:50,799 so I'm pretty firm on the first. The second question 371 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:54,920 is what happened to his very distinctive nineteen sixty six 372 00:19:55,079 --> 00:19:58,279 Dodge Dakota truck that we've seen in the photographs. This 373 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,839 is the one that led the FBI to recognize that 374 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,200 Wilmer was a likely suspect in the disappearance of Keith 375 00:20:05,279 --> 00:20:10,079 Colling Cassandra Haley that super distinctive truck. I don't know 376 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,240 this definitively, and I'm going to try to track this 377 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,960 down with some contacts in Lancaster County. I have heard 378 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,559 from some people who are pretty knowledgeable that at some 379 00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:25,240 point Wilmer took that truck to Dodson's garage and they 380 00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:30,519 had a Junkyard in the back and they scrapped vehicles. Supposedly, 381 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:36,119 Wilmer had his truck crushed at Dodson's garage Junkyard Auto 382 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,920 recycling plant. Again, I find that really suspicious, even if 383 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,599 that truck was a rustbucket towards the end of its 384 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,920 service life, those old pickup trucks actually have turned out 385 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,480 to be very collectible, and some people even like the 386 00:20:49,559 --> 00:20:53,000 vintage rusted out look. I find it very odd. We're 387 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,880 going to see if we can pin this down. I'll 388 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,880 try to do some research and reach out to some 389 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,480 of our friends in Lancaster County to see if anybody 390 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,920 can say definitively if Wilmer's truck was crushed. But that's 391 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,559 the case, much like the boat did Anny Wade. I 392 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,599 find it exceptionally odd and an attempt to hide evidence 393 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:11,279 more than likely. 394 00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:15,839 Speaker 5: That's an excellent question, Susan, and so we do want 395 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,279 to try to make that effort to find out more 396 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,119 about where that truck may have ended up. Another question 397 00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:28,799 from Elaine, also a constant listener. Elaine asks, I thought 398 00:21:28,839 --> 00:21:31,519 I heard on your pod there was an eminent announcement 399 00:21:31,599 --> 00:21:36,200 from law enforcement on the remaining unsolved Colonial Parkway murders. 400 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,279 Did I misunderstand or did I miss an announcement? 401 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 2: Bill? 402 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 3: I think you should take this one. 403 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if you misunderstood, Elaine. We've been 404 00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:49,920 hoping for more news from the Virginia State Police and 405 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,000 specifically from the FBI in the Colonial Parkway murders. I 406 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,880 don't recall us saying there was an imminent announcement. I 407 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,039 think we were hoping there would be more. I'm very 408 00:22:01,079 --> 00:22:06,160 disappointed to report that we have had nothing, absolutely nothing. 409 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,039 It's been a year and a half since the announcement 410 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,440 that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had been linked through DNA 411 00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:15,279 by the Virginia State Police, and thank you to them 412 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,839 and the Virginia State Forensics Lab for making the connection 413 00:22:20,279 --> 00:22:25,799 checking Wilmer's DNA against the rape kit from Robin Edwards, 414 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,240 which they then found a link and that appears to 415 00:22:28,319 --> 00:22:32,400 have implicated Wilmer in the rape murder and murder of 416 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,039 Robin Edwards and David Knobling. Also, while conducting those searches, 417 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,839 they found a link between Wilmer and the nineteen eighty 418 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,839 nine rape murder of Teresa Lynn spaw Howell. We had 419 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,720 hoped there would be further announcements. One of the things 420 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,720 you may recall we were extremely unhappy about in January 421 00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:55,400 twenty twenty four when they made the announcement was that 422 00:22:55,599 --> 00:22:59,599 Virginia State Police spokeswoman Karem Geller, we know of her 423 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,720 and her excellent work over the years. She refused to 424 00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:06,319 answer the question put to her by Andy Fox, longtime reporter, 425 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,920 who said, can you tell us when Alan Wade Wilmer 426 00:23:09,079 --> 00:23:12,079 Senior first moved on to your radar now. As soon 427 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,759 as we heard about fact that they had identified two watermen, 428 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,279 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior and his older brother, William Keith Wilmer, 429 00:23:20,319 --> 00:23:23,400 who passed away in April, if I'm not mistaken, as 430 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,039 soon as they mentioned that this announcement was coming, I 431 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,720 knew exactly who we were talking about, because we were 432 00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:33,559 talking about two watermen from Lancaster, Virginia. I knew that 433 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:37,440 within days, three or four days of the disappearance of 434 00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:40,599 Keith Colincussandra Haley, the FBI who was doing a full 435 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,680 court press on looking for how this young couple Keith 436 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,640 Colincus Andandra Haley had disappeared. Couples came forward and said 437 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,759 that a man driving this highly distinctive truck had been 438 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,319 harassing them on the Colonial Parkway. He would approach them 439 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,880 like a cop would, but he was wearing coveralls, not 440 00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:01,160 a police uniform, and he would pound on the window 441 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,240 and he would demand driver's licenses. Interestingly, driver's licenses only, 442 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:10,519 not registrations. These scary encounters were reported by multiple couples, 443 00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:13,720 and they had a very good description of his truck 444 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,599 with his phone number written on the door. And of 445 00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:20,799 course the em raw edim raw license plate, which was 446 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,839 a vanity play on the truck talk about hiding in 447 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,200 playing sight here. It wasn't until a few days after 448 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,960 the announcement when a number of US Andy Fox, Blaine Pardo, 449 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:35,480 who wrote the book on the Colonial Parkway murders, myself 450 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,680 and others. We challenged the FBI and we said, why 451 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,680 aren't you admitting that Wilmer or the Wilmer brothers were 452 00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:46,799 the leading suspects in the disappearance of Keith Collin Because 453 00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:49,599 Hendra Haley and they were forced to admit that, yes, 454 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,799 actually the Wilmer brothers had been leading suspects. Their home 455 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,000 was searched, his boat, his truck. And I know that 456 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,000 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, and perhaps I'm not quite as 457 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,559 certain on the second part, which is Keith Wilmer. I 458 00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:06,799 know that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was given two lie 459 00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:11,480 detector tests by the FBI by their top polygrapher. He said, 460 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,200 and I've spoken to him directly. I tracked him down, 461 00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:16,079 which I know the FBI loves it when I do 462 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,319 this kind of thing. I tracked him down, I spoke 463 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,519 to him directly, and he said, first of all, we 464 00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:23,240 should have never let those guys go, which is an 465 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:26,200 interesting thing for a polygraphic examiner to admit. And he 466 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,599 said Alan specifically passed one polygraph test and the other 467 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,599 one was inconclusive. In other words, I can't tell you 468 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,119 whether he's telling the truth or being evasive. So he 469 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,119 passed one, if you will, and the other one was inconclusive. 470 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:45,079 But they let the Wilmer brothers go. They checked so 471 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,680 many boxes in terms of what they said they were 472 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,160 looking for in the Colonial Parkway murders, from all the 473 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,200 way back to when my sister Kathy and Rebecca Dowski 474 00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:57,279 were murdered in nineteen eighty six. I find it flabbergasting 475 00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:00,960 that they never went back and revisits. Did the Wilmer 476 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,839 brothers as suspects. You're listening to Mindover Murder. We'll be 477 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:12,359 right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 478 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,200 here at Mindover Murder. Keith Wilmer, who died a few 479 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,279 months ago, as I mentioned, is also a suspect in 480 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,279 the Mary Keeser Harding murder, which took place up on 481 00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:27,720 the Rappahannock River under very similar circumstances to the Colonial 482 00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:31,400 Parkway murders. We've often linked to a story from the 483 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,519 Washingtonian magazine, which is quite good, called a murder on 484 00:26:35,599 --> 00:26:40,759 the Rappahannock River, and they mention Keith Wilmer specifically as 485 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,559 a potential suspect in that case. So this imminent announcement 486 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,279 that I think Elaine is asking about was we were 487 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,039 always hoping that the FBI would, first of all, more 488 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:57,039 publicly admit that the Wilmer brothers were suspects, and they 489 00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,839 only did it because we forced their hands, and they've 490 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,799 never said anything. They have held us at arm's length. 491 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,279 There's a new team of FBI agents who've taken over 492 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:12,039 the case effective January twenty twenty five, and they have 493 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,960 been beyond standoffs. They're basically giving the families the straight arm. 494 00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:21,480 They have given us no updates whatsoever. They have a 495 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,160 victims services person who's a very nice person, but she 496 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:27,920 calls me once a month. She called me yesterday. Each 497 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,400 month they tell me and they make the same phone 498 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,799 call to the other families I've checked, and they basically say, 499 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,319 we have nothing to tell you every single month. I've 500 00:27:36,319 --> 00:27:39,839 had my complaints about the FBI and the past teams 501 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,359 that we've had in terms of communication and the relationship. 502 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,359 But the previous teams were much more communicative than this 503 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,000 current team. This current team literally are telling us nothing. 504 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,000 It's been radio silence essentially for about a year and 505 00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:54,440 a half. 506 00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 5: When our former casagent left the bureau, it was with 507 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,200 the understood by the families that there had been DNA 508 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,960 evidence sent out to test and that those DNA results 509 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:11,720 were again imminent. I'll use Elaine's word. We've heard not 510 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:14,720 a single thing about those DNA results. And those results 511 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,519 should have been back months ago. 512 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,799 Speaker 2: So it's a year now. They promised us. I'm not 513 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,839 making this up. I don't need to make things up. 514 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,480 They promised us, and by us I mean the Thomas 515 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,960 family and Nadowski family, and the Call and Haley families. 516 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,480 They promised us results over a year ago on the 517 00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:40,240 latest round of DNA testing, and we have heard nothing. 518 00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, every time that we have said we hope there 519 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:46,839 is something coming down the pipe, it has always been 520 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,279 because we hope that there is DNA that's going to 521 00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:52,799 come back any day. Now they swear that is going 522 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:57,279 to definitively link Wilmer or Wilmer's brother to those cases, 523 00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:00,000 and for some reason or another, of those DNA results 524 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:04,720 have just never materialized, and so we're always hoping that 525 00:29:04,759 --> 00:29:08,200 there's going to be an imminent announcement because there's no 526 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,720 reason why there shouldn't be one. People tell Bill all 527 00:29:12,759 --> 00:29:16,920 the time, mister Thomas, your sister's case is solvable. I 528 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,119 don't know how many times over the last ten years 529 00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:21,799 that we've worked together that Bill has said, someone has 530 00:29:21,839 --> 00:29:23,799 told him this is a solvable case. 531 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,319 Speaker 3: It should be done. It should absolutely be in the book. 532 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:30,759 Speaker 5: And for whatever reason, maybe just because they love having 533 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:34,680 Bill Thomas on speed dial, they have not managed to 534 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,880 take the ball over the goal line. I don't know 535 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,400 this should be It should be done by now, it 536 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,400 really should. We have no idea why they're giving us 537 00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:47,240 the straight arm and why they're just remaining so stubbornly 538 00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:51,200 radio silent. And this is after a lot of behind 539 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,160 the scenes discussion of what can we do to encourage 540 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,759 the FBI to speak more to us, And the answer 541 00:29:57,799 --> 00:29:59,960 ultimately is not a damn thing, unfortunately. 542 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:02,799 Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things going on. One 543 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:06,319 thing I heard from someone who worked this case for 544 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,680 several years a number of years ago and still follows 545 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,759 the case closely, is she was talking to another expert 546 00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:16,279 who knows this case very well and is a former 547 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,680 FBI person. This person said, privately one to another, we 548 00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:25,359 owe those families an apology. And what they mean is 549 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,279 because this case has been so botched by the FBI 550 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,359 and perhaps to a lesser extent, the Virginia State Police. 551 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:35,400 Although at least the Virginia State Police solved the Robin 552 00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:39,440 Edwards David Knobling case and together with the Hampton Police Department, 553 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,200 solved the Teresa Linz baw Howell case, the idea that 554 00:30:44,279 --> 00:30:47,640 this case has been so badly botched that they owe 555 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,839 the Colonial Parkway murderers families and apology. Now, we're never 556 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,759 going to get an apology, and the FBI will never 557 00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:57,359 own its mistakes. And one of the things I've been 558 00:30:57,359 --> 00:31:01,359 told by outside experts and former f people is that 559 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,519 what they hate about the Colonial Parkway murders is there's 560 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:08,920 been so many mistakes made by the FBI that an 561 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,920 announcement like we've found out who committed the rest of 562 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,440 the Colonial Parkway murders also highlights all of the problems. 563 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,839 Love them missed opportunities, the discarded evidence, the leak of 564 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,480 the crime scene photos, burning my sister Kathy and Rebecca 565 00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:29,799 Dowski's rape kit says medical waste eight years after they 566 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:32,720 were murdered, which I don't care what the FBI says. 567 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,359 The Chief Medical Examiner for the Commonwealth of Virginia said 568 00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:39,559 to me when we discovered this in twenty ten, She said, 569 00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:42,839 mister Thomas, you never throw away evidence in an unsolved 570 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,680 murder case. She said, I don't care what the FBI 571 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:50,359 tells you. Now that's a lie. If they ordered those 572 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,400 rape kits burned as medical waste, which they did, we 573 00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:56,799 have it in writing. That was a huge mistake. And 574 00:31:56,839 --> 00:31:58,599 she said, I know it appears that your sister and 575 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,920 Missdowski were not raped. But she said, even given that, 576 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,640 you never know what's going to come online in twenty ten, 577 00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:07,599 this would have been in late two thousand and nine, 578 00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:11,519 what more refined test might come online. It turns out 579 00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:13,559 she was right. There are all kinds of new tests 580 00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:16,759 that are much more sensitive and much more able to 581 00:32:17,279 --> 00:32:20,880 make kind of discernments that were not available back in 582 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,799 nineteen eighty six. Maybe the reason the FBI doesn't want 583 00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:27,720 to solve the Colonial Parkway murders is because this case 584 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,920 is a massive embarrassment. They've screwed this case up so 585 00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:35,920 badly that even if they did announce it's Wilmer or 586 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,400 it's another suspect, And here's the proof that we have 587 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,119 any fair telling of the tale also has to highlight 588 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,680 the fact that, good God, the reason this case has 589 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,480 gone thirty nine years unsolved is because you guys watched 590 00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:49,880 this case big time. 591 00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 5: And actually this next question from Jody I think links 592 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,000 into that. So this is from Jody, and she says 593 00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:58,519 it's so wrong that the families have been shut out 594 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:01,960 prior to and especially since the January twenty twenty four 595 00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:05,039 press conference, especially since Wilmer was named as the murderer 596 00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:07,960 and they asked for the public's help. So my question is, 597 00:33:08,079 --> 00:33:11,400 can the Colonial Parkway families petition the new FBI team 598 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,000 of investigators and vsp as indicated to at least meet 599 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,599 with the entire group of family members again as was 600 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,599 done so many years ago. What strategies can be employed 601 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,119 to put public pressure on them? Can the families hold 602 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,359 their own press conference? 603 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 3: Bill? 604 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,039 Speaker 5: Can you share with Jody what they told you when 605 00:33:28,079 --> 00:33:29,839 you said you wanted a full meeting with all the. 606 00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:34,039 Speaker 2: Families they've so far flat out refused. Now, let's just 607 00:33:34,279 --> 00:33:38,480 recap the last time the FBI and the Virginia State 608 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:42,519 Police met with the families as a group, and the 609 00:33:42,599 --> 00:33:45,720 only time they ever met with the families as a 610 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,359 group is in January twenty ten. That's, by my count, 611 00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:55,400 more than fifteen years ago. Now, we told the FBI 612 00:33:55,599 --> 00:33:58,359 and the Virginia State Police that we want to meet 613 00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:01,920 as a group with the families, and we told them 614 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,240 up front, we don't want to be presented to We 615 00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:07,319 want to be allowed to ask questions, and we want 616 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:12,280 you to answer the goddamn questions. They've refused to answer 617 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,400 our questions for so long. It's really hard to just 618 00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:23,400 sit there quietly and behave politely while they constantly refuse 619 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,280 to answer the questions. So far, FBI Norfolk has refused 620 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,320 to meet with the families as a group. Now, we 621 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,360 had an excellent meeting with the Attorney General for the 622 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,599 Commonwealth of Virginia, Jason Mieris, who committed that he would 623 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:41,280 help us in any way that he could. He's absolutely 624 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,039 terrific and his staff has been incredibly helpful. So we've 625 00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:50,119 gotten some respect and some answers and a commitment to 626 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,039 help from the state side. The Commonwealth of Virginia side 627 00:34:54,559 --> 00:34:58,159 the FBI nothing and so far they are refusing to 628 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:00,920 meet with us as a group. They tell us they 629 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,679 have nothing to say to us. And as I said earlier, 630 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,079 every month they call me and they tell me they 631 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:07,960 have nothing to tell me. And I took the call 632 00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:11,480 yesterday and it's the same old just a complete straight 633 00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:12,360 arm as you said. 634 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 5: And I want our listeners to help us do the 635 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,199 long game here. This time next year we will be 636 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,159 looking forty years for your sister and Rebecca's case in 637 00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:26,719 the face, which is horrific in the extreme. We want 638 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,000 to know from our listeners. We want to ramp up 639 00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:33,960 the pressure we're facing forty. They have to face forty 640 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:36,840 as well. They need to hear it shouted from the rooftops. 641 00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:40,840 It has been forty years? What are you doing? So 642 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,960 we would love to know from our listeners and anybody 643 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,760 who cares about this case, what would you like to 644 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,320 see us do to commemorate forty Do you want a 645 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,760 big public press conference? Do you want a candlelight vigil? 646 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,800 Do you want a memorial five k run walk or 647 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,559 something like that? What would you like to see us 648 00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:03,719 do that we can put pressure on the FBI. We 649 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,840 know that the FBI does respond to I don't think 650 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,960 we're going to say public shaming necessarily, but they do 651 00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:12,559 respond to media pressure. And the best thing that we 652 00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:15,079 can do for media pressure is to make sure that 653 00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:18,599 our voices are loud and not just the two of us, 654 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,239 everyone in this community that has been affected by this crime. 655 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,079 So we would ask our listeners to think of some 656 00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:28,800 ways that you think we should be commemorating forty so 657 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,320 that the FBI cannot ignore us or strong arm us. 658 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,000 So this is interesting. This one is from Sean, and 659 00:36:37,039 --> 00:36:41,440 Sean asks has any connection been found between Ron Little 660 00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:44,599 or Liberty Security and Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. 661 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 2: Not, to my knowledge, we've seen connections between Ron Little 662 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:56,079 and Liberty Security and other people that were associated with 663 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,119 Liberty Security, including John Knight hopp Thorn, who's the former 664 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,159 owner of Liberty Security. He allegedly sold Liberty Security to 665 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,559 Ron Little, who was ultimately deported back to New Zealand 666 00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:13,880 in nineteen eighty nine, which coincidentally or not little deportation 667 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,119 back to his native New Zealand does line up fairly 668 00:37:18,159 --> 00:37:20,920 closely with the end of what we refer to as 669 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,960 the Colonial Parkway. Murders. I've never seen a connection between 670 00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:29,719 Alan Wilmer Senior. It's something that Kristin and I thought 671 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,559 a lot about, talk to a lot of people about it, 672 00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:37,079 but we haven't found any connection between Alan Wilmer and 673 00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:42,280 Ron Little. We do see some very odd connections between 674 00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:47,400 John Knight Hawthorne, who's a former Gloucester County Sheriff, Fred Atwell, 675 00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:51,400 another former Gloucester County sheriff, and other members of the 676 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,199 Gloucester County Sheriff's department. There seems to be a nexus 677 00:37:56,519 --> 00:38:00,960 of mostly former law enforcement people in lost Our County 678 00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:05,039 who seem to have some very strange connections to Liberty Security. 679 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,079 And of course, as we've talked about, we have additional 680 00:38:08,119 --> 00:38:15,639 connections to Liberty Security through family members like Robin Edwards's mother, Bonnie, 681 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:20,000 who worked at Liberty Security, and other connections that I 682 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,679 think are too strange to be ignored. I don't see 683 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,840 a connection between the Wilmer brothers and Ron Little and 684 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,599 Liberty Security at this point, but we're still looking. 685 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,079 Speaker 5: Plenty more questions to ask, but we're going to end 686 00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:35,440 on two personal ones just to kind of end us 687 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,719 on a light note. So Bill, our top fan Robert 688 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,760 wants to know, Bill, what are the favorite places you'd 689 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,599 recommend for someone who comes to visit New England. 690 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 2: Oh, gosh, there's so many. Yeah, for those that don't know, 691 00:38:50,519 --> 00:38:53,840 I've never lived in Virginia. My family is from New England. 692 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,280 We lived all over the country when we were kids 693 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,199 because my dad was a naval officer. Gosh, there's so many. 694 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,639 First of all, you have to go to Boston, which 695 00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:05,000 is the cradle of liberty and is an incredible city 696 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:08,280 and lots of fun, so much to see and do there. 697 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,800 I know you're crazy about Salem, Massachusetts. Up north of Boston, 698 00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:19,000 Cape Cod is spectacular and beautiful. Providence Rhode Island is 699 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,599 a very hot hippen happening town. And then north of Boston, Portsmouth, 700 00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:28,480 New Hampshire is a beautiful place. And Portland, Maine is 701 00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:33,480 a really cool, absolutely beautiful seaport town. A lot going 702 00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:37,679 on with bars and restaurants and high tech companies and 703 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,519 all sorts of stuff, great stuff going on there. You 704 00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:45,320 could spend weeks in New England. It's a spectacularly beautiful place. 705 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,480 Lots of folks come up in the fall leaf beepers 706 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,079 as we refer to them, but there's so much to 707 00:39:51,119 --> 00:39:54,760 see and do in New England that it's really the 708 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,119 kind of place you could visit over and over again. 709 00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:00,960 Even just those handful of places that I've mentioned are 710 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,960 only at starting point, and you have to stay with 711 00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:07,199 us at our little airbnb if you like. We've got 712 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,000 a little place called the Maple House in Norfork, Connecticut. 713 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:11,679 Speaker 3: It is beautiful. 714 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,159 Speaker 5: And then Robert also asked what are my favorite weekend 715 00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:17,360 trips and places to explore in Virginia. 716 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 3: I'm going to name only three. 717 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 5: The first one is definitely Charlottesville, particularly the Carter Mountain Orchard, 718 00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:29,239 because I love the views. I love the apple cider donuts. 719 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,519 If you've never had a chance to go there, you should. 720 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,280 It's a wonderful fall activity. And then the Downtown Mall 721 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,119 in Charlottesville has a particularly nice string of independent bookstores, 722 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,719 and they have a wonderful place called Gerhardt's Fine Chocolates. 723 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,280 And I am a chocoholic of the highest order, and 724 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,079 their stuff is tremendous, really like high level artisanal chocolate. 725 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,519 Cannot recommend that enough. I also love Stanton, Virginia, which 726 00:40:55,559 --> 00:40:57,679 is where some of my family is from, because they 727 00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:01,440 have a wonderful, cute little main street, beautiful charming murals. 728 00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:03,679 Speaker 3: They also have a nice bookstore, the Book Dragon. 729 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,320 Speaker 5: And honestly, some of the best seafood that I've ever 730 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,320 had in my life came from a restaurant in Stanton. 731 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 3: Believe it or not, like you would think it would 732 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:13,559 be right here on the coast. 733 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 5: No, it was the best piece of tuna that I've 734 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,480 ever had in my entire life was from a wonderful 735 00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:22,440 restaurant called Aoli in Stanton. 736 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 3: It was out of this world. And then I love 737 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,280 lay caverns. 738 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 5: It's a little hokey because everybody at some point or 739 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,360 another goes and looks at the stalagmites and stalagtites. But 740 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,679 I love loarray caverns. It's beautiful and it never really 741 00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:38,920 gets old. So I would say those are my three 742 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,400 favorite places, but there's plenty more around Virginia. 743 00:41:42,519 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 3: Mark and I tell each other every. 744 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,679 Speaker 5: Weekend how blessed we are to live in such a 745 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,280 beautiful state because you can get a little bit of everything, 746 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,639 mountains to seashore, beautiful leaves to white sandy beaches and 747 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,840 northern Virginia where you get all the history and all 748 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,920 the museums yeah, I love Virginia. I have no regrets 749 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,719 in moving back here from Arizona, and Robert ask about that. 750 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,079 Speaker 3: But that's the story for another time. 751 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,079 Speaker 5: We have many more listener questions to get to, so 752 00:42:05,119 --> 00:42:07,880 we're going to continue this in a second separate episode. 753 00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:10,079 That is going to do it for episode one of 754 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:11,239 ask Us Anything. 755 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,559 Speaker 3: Thank you all so much for listening. We'll see you 756 00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:15,079 next time. 757 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 758 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:29,800 Another Dog Productions. 759 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,679 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 760 00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 761 00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:39,159 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 762 00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:43,599 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 763 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,519 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 764 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 765 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,280 Murders on Facebook. 766 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,039 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 767 00:42:55,039 --> 00:42:56,679 Bill Thomas five six. 768 00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:18,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. 769 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:01,639 Speaker 5: A