WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in. Here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.559 in the True Story Fmfamily of Entertainment podcast. 3 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:06.280 Meet Zinnia. 4 00:00:06.440 --> 00:00:08.839 You are being very pulte to someone who is attempting 5 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.759 to killos her wife's suffering. 6 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:14.039 You know I'm wildly, madly. 7 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.879 In love with you and their best friend, Goldie Glad. 8 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:17.920 We didn't miss all the fun. 9 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:21.239 Swords in hand, they defend their city from the worst 10 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:24.839 of humanity. I am Lord Buxton Blue. 11 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:30.440 What are the Electric hairg Virgil Walcot Vicious Swab. 12 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:34.520 Follow their adventures on the Swashbuckling Ladies Debate Society audio 13 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:38.479 drama podcast available now at true story dot fm. 14 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:45.479 Slash Swashbuckling. Hey, movie lovers, I'm Pete Wright and I'm 15 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:48.000 Andy Nelson. We are the hosts of the Next Real 16 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:50.640 Film Podcast. If you're passionate about films like we are, 17 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.479 you'll love our show. Each week we dive deep into 18 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:57.479 a movie, discussing everything from the story and performances to 19 00:00:57.560 --> 00:00:59.320 the cinematography and score. 20 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.320 Not to mention budgets and awards. We have covered iconic 21 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:06.439 series like Francis hercoppol As, the Godfather trilogy, examining themes 22 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:09.120 of power, family and the dark side of the American Dream. 23 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:12.400 We've explored the works of groundbreaking directors like Catherine Bigelow, 24 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:14.400 discussing her mastery of tension. 25 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:17.959 We've looked at heist films, great car chases, great years 26 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:20.000 in film, couples on the run. 27 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:20.439 And more. 28 00:01:20.519 --> 00:01:24.400 Our discussions go beyond the surface, examining what makes each 29 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:27.480 film tick. We believe that when the movie ends, the 30 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:31.439 conversation begins, and we'd love for you to join that conversation. 31 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.519 Find the Next Reel Film podcast on your favorite podcast 32 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:36.359 app or at the Nextreel dot. 33 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:37.239 Com the Next Reel. 34 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:48.000 When the movie ends, our conversation begins. 35 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.640 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, 36 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:59.480 myself Matthew, my co host Riki, and returning guest Abby 37 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:03.680 are gonna be talking about Section thirty one. What is 38 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:06.719 this part of Starfleet? How does it fit into our 39 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:09.800 understanding of Starfleet, How does it fit into our understanding 40 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:13.560 of Gene Roddenberry's creation of star Trek and what was 41 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:18.719 happening with a star Trek Section thirty one movie? And so, 42 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:22.400 first of we just let folks introduce themselves and Abby, 43 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:24.240 you want to say hello, Hi. 44 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:28.439 I'm Abby. Pronounce er shethe awesome. 45 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.439 Awesome Riky as always, you're joining us. 46 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:35.479 Yes, I'm here mostly to be the cabbage head to 47 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.879 you all. I'm familiar with like older star Trek, but 48 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.159 I haven't really kept up and I haven't watched this movie, 49 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:45.879 so I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on it well. 50 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.840 And that's exactly why we wanted Riky on here, because 51 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:51.759 we know in a lot of media, sometimes someone here 52 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.080 hasn't a lot of the folks in the audience haven't 53 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.039 seen the movie or haven't seen the TV show that 54 00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:59.280 we're talking about, and we do want to make sure 55 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.199 we're focusing on issues and the questions, not just like 56 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:04.319 a review of the movie, but we want to make 57 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:07.680 sure that we're saying enough to help the the people 58 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.240 who haven't seen it follow the discussion. So originally we 59 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.479 thought this was going to be an envy that was 60 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:17.599 going to spark a lot of discussion about section thirty one, 61 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.280 and thus having Riki here who hadn't seen the movie 62 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.280 would be great. As it turns out, the movie was 63 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.159 quite awful, like. 64 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:33.240 It's a wonder statement, oh dear. 65 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:36.360 Some people have enjoyed it just as an action like 66 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:38.960 spy adventure movie. I thought, even as that it was 67 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:43.599 pretty terrible, but it is absolutely not a like when 68 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:47.000 I heard this movie was gonna exist, I thought it 69 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:50.879 was going to be about people in Section thirty one 70 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.960 and why do they exist in their conflict with like 71 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:56.680 you know, cause we've seen a lot of like Picard 72 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:01.240 or Discovery or DS nine, those people having to come 73 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:05.319 up against Section thirty one and not be sure if 74 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:09.560 it shouldn't exist or not. And I want to see 75 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:11.639 a movie that was all of that from the other side. 76 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:13.879 We don't get that. We get a movie that's just 77 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:16.959 thirty one, which I was playing in a second who 78 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:20.680 they are having an adventure in space with as many 79 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.439 bad sexual innuendo jokes as you can make, which normally 80 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:25.279 I love, but. 81 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:31.720 A Star Trek it was a lot not though Star 82 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:37.800 Trek is sexy, like it's sexy, like not just like. 83 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:41.680 The characters and stuff, but like they are. There's so 84 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:46.800 many episodes of both the original and of TG where 85 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:49.399 they just like go to some random planet and screw. 86 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:54.279 Sure. Yeah, but the window part felt weird, it felt new, 87 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:57.120 but yeah, it just it was just not a very 88 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:58.879 good movie, and it didn't really introduce the topic of 89 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:01.839 Section thirty one very well. So we're going to actually 90 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:06.240 talk mostly about Section thirty one itself, and so here's 91 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:09.439 what the movie, Yeah, exactly, well, because these questions haven't 92 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.560 raised by other things. So Abby, let me start with you, 93 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:14.920 what is your understanding of what is section thirty one? 94 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:18.519 So from my understanding, section thirty one is kind of 95 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:23.240 like the CIA of Starfleet or the Federation. They are 96 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:26.959 the spies who are pulling the strings and doing the 97 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.120 things that the Federation won't do. 98 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:31.360 Yeah, I think that's the perfect way to put it. 99 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:36.399 It gets compared to the Obsidian Order of the Kardassians 100 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:41.240 or of the Tashiak of the Romulans Tashi a thank you, 101 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:43.199 which are often presented as like, oh, we are so 102 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.079 much better because we don't have those things. But in 103 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.360 a number of episodes we've learned no star Trek has 104 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:53.079 this group as well, and it's been explored in DS 105 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.439 nine is when it first got started, in the episode 106 00:05:55.560 --> 00:06:01.079 called Inquisition, but we've also seen in Discovery, in Picard 107 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:04.279 in a number of other shows acting as though it 108 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:08.199 has an agenda for the good of Starfleet. But that's 109 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:10.759 very much like the CIA, kind of like we're gonna 110 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:15.279 do back room assassinations and secret deals with terrible people 111 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.600 and all these things in order to do what we 112 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:20.720 think is for the best, but with no accountability. 113 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.199 Yeah, the CIA comparison, I've seen that made, and I 114 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:32.839 think it's fair because you have this organization that is 115 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:38.759 carrying out like assassinations, presumably torture, and like genetic experiments, 116 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.680 which are otherwise illegal, so they're doing things that are illegal. 117 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:46.839 What's interesting in comparison to the CIA is that the 118 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:53.519 CIA is still a legal, outfront branch of a government agency, 119 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.800 right and Starfleet does have Starfleet Intelligence, which is like 120 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:01.639 spies and stuff who you know, do intelligence work. So 121 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:06.720 Section thirty one goes beyond that into a different territory 122 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:10.480 and it various points. The implication is that a lot 123 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.040 of people in the Federation don't even know about Section 124 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.360 thirty one. So that's where the comparison to the CIA 125 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:21.120 kind of breaks down. In my opinion, is that there 126 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:24.800 seems to be less accountability for Section thirty one. You know, 127 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.800 we could argue that there's not great accountability for the CIA, 128 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:29.120 but there's supposed to be. 129 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:30.920 Do you think it's more fair to say that this 130 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.040 is like that Section thirty one is kind of like 131 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.040 the arm of the CIA that does like the assassinations 132 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:38.759 and the backroom cups. 133 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.680 Yeah, like if you think about the what I'm trying 134 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.720 to think of, like, yeah, a real comparison to that, 135 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:50.439 because certainly the CIA does a lot of things, so 136 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:52.839 does the NSA. But do you think that there's like 137 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.079 I mean, it's always more like the Men in Black 138 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.160 or something like that. Like think of some sort of 139 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:01.879 like shadowy secret organization that most of the government denies. 140 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:06.079 You know, that's that's Nati, Yes, Illunati. It's the Kingsman. 141 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:07.439 It's the like whatever. 142 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.240 I don't okay, I thought about this, Matthew. I don't 143 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:15.720 think the Kingsman is technically a government agency. I believe 144 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:16.879 it's privately funded. 145 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:20.240 I just rewatched started as a government agent, if I remember, 146 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.120 it started as a group founded by Queen Victoria or 147 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:24.959 one of the kings. But you are correct, it does 148 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.519 become its own like privately spun off thing. 149 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.439 But I thought it was like rich people who yes, 150 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:36.200 do have connections to government, like the rich barons of 151 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:38.279 the time were like, we need something. 152 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:42.159 So that's not the best example, but either way, yeah, 153 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.639 it is this and I think a lot of times 154 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:48.240 it's been presented as an antagonist to the story, and 155 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:53.720 in Discovery it provides more of a you know, partnership 156 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:56.559 role to some of our characters, but it's always presented 157 00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:00.080 as the group that's willing to cut the corners that 158 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:05.200 Starfleet wouldn't normally accept. And do you remember what exactly 159 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.559 what the role they play is in in Inquisition. 160 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:17.279 That was the first episode, So they're the Sloane the 161 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.200 character Sloane is the agent. I believe he was trying 162 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:26.120 to recruit doctor Bashir, or in fact, he is accusing 163 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:31.440 doctor Basher of being a spy for like the dominion. 164 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:32.360 Oh yes, that's right. 165 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:36.039 In doing so, like, he runs him through a series 166 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:40.200 of Holidax simulations that I think Bashir thinks are real 167 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:43.320 at some point to try to get him to admit 168 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:47.840 that he's an agent. And when he finally like admits 169 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:50.559 that he isn't, or like proves that he isn't, then 170 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:53.279 Sloan is like, yeah, but I just wanted to make 171 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:56.320 sure because I actually want to recruit you to be 172 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:57.799 a part of Section thirty one. 173 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:02.120 Right, I think, And then and he's pretty upset about this. 174 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:05.960 Yeah, And then there's the interesting episode where Sloan and 175 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:10.200 Bashir travel to Romulus in order to do some spying 176 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:15.440 slash assassinating, slash manipulating of the Romulin governments, which that 177 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.480 one was one of my favorite episodes DS nine because 178 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.879 there's so much backstabbing and like not knowing like what's 179 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:25.559 real and whose loyalties are where going on? Like that 180 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.080 was a really good, like spy episode. 181 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:32.399 Well it's funny too, because the episode I have to 182 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.240 remind myself that probably my favorite episode of DS nine, 183 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.559 A lot of feel's favorite episode in the Pale Moonlight 184 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:41.480 actually has nothing to do with Section thirty one, because 185 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:44.840 this is the episode where Cisco winds up working with 186 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:50.679 not Galen what's the name of the Credassian Taylor, Derek, Dererik, thank. 187 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:51.919 You find simple. 188 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:54.360 Garrick winds up working the two of them work together 189 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.919 to basically bring the Romulins into the war with the Dominion, 190 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:01.600 and it winds up involving the killing of a Romulan 191 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.240 and then framing the Dominion for doing it to get 192 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:07.360 the Romuin involved. And I've always thought like, like, if 193 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.519 I don't think about it, I always think like, oh, 194 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.039 Section thirty one must have been involved they were. They 195 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:14.200 weren't mentioned that episode at all, but I feel like 196 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:15.759 it's the kind of thing where Section thirty one found 197 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.279 out about it, they'd be like, yeah, maybe we should 198 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:20.000 recruit Benjamin, like he could be one to find. 199 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:25.720 Yeah, the episode I was referencing, the title is this 200 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:31.399 is Latin I believe inter Arma nm celent legs, which 201 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:34.559 translates to in times of war, the law falls silent, 202 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:39.279 which is a fascinating phrase and goes to like what 203 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:42.559 the ethos of Section thirty one is. And my favorite 204 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:47.480 part about this episode is that Section thirty one assassinates 205 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:56.279 a pro Federation Romulin senator to install a person who 206 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.840 is like anti federation in like public, but is secretly 207 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:06.240 working with them, right, And it just like it it 208 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.519 makes you think so much about like politics and loyalties 209 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:10.200 and all that. 210 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:13.919 Yeah, and all these ideas of like we have to 211 00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:17.639 you know. To me, that's why it feels so similar 212 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:20.120 to the killing of the Romulan in order to get 213 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.279 the Ramuans to help the Federation, you know, because it's 214 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.840 all about like double dealing and things like this, and 215 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:29.159 that quote about in times of war the law fall 216 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:32.399 silent feels really relevant to what we know now is 217 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.480 the origins of section thirty one, and Riky you know 218 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:36.559 you did some digging on that. 219 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:42.000 Yeah, so the claim made and I don't I don't 220 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:43.799 know if there's any way to actually verify this, but 221 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.519 the claim made, I think by Sloan at one point, 222 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:49.080 is that the origins of section thirty one go all 223 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.720 the way back to the Starfleet Charter A Article fourteen, 224 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.080 Section thirty one, which is where they get the name that. 225 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:01.679 According to him, the article allows for extraordinary measures to 226 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:04.759 be taken in times of extreme threat, which is just 227 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:07.360 a very broad thing that you can interpret in any 228 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:09.759 way you want and do whatever illegal things you want. 229 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:12.080 Section thirty one. 230 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:15.960 Right, Yeah, it's kind of like the building idea for 231 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:20.080 martial law or for you know, the total executive immunity 232 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:22.480 or whatever it is, where it says that if if 233 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.720 the leadership thinks this has to be done, then no 234 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:25.759 one gets to question them. 235 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:28.919 Yeah, like extraordinary measures like what does that mean? 236 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:29.159 Right? 237 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.000 Like extreme threat? Like you get to define what those 238 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.720 are and then do what you feel needs to be done. 239 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:38.240 And then it's like pre justified, like it's baked in 240 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.480 because there's no there's no clear guidelines and I think 241 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:44.679 that's part of the problem with Section thirty one as 242 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:49.960 it's presented in Star Trek is that they seem to 243 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.000 be able to do whatever the heck they want for 244 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.759 the story, and that's not great, and that's why a 245 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:59.080 lot of people don't like section thirty one stories like 246 00:13:59.200 --> 00:13:59.960 in Star Trek. 247 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:02.679 Right, and we'll talk. We're gonna talk about both how 248 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:06.519 it exists in terms of Starfleet itself and then pull 249 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:09.320 the camera back someone and talk about how does it 250 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.879 fit into you know, Roddenberry's creation and also what star 251 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:15.519 Treks become now. And so let me actually talk a 252 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.039 little bit about what's been happening in Discovery and some 253 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.080 of those modern shows which freaky you know you haven't seen. 254 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:24.799 I'll confess I don't remember all the ins and outs, 255 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.399 but basically, you know, one of the main plot lines 256 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.840 of Discovery is that the Federation and the Klingons have 257 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.759 this major war in the years leading up to the 258 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:39.200 events of the original series. And this war is kind 259 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.240 of it's not completely pulled out a whole cloth. It's 260 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.639 referenced a good deal in the original series. They talk 261 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:45.720 about how that there's a ceasefire and stuff like that. 262 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.440 Although it does kind of not fit with the plot, 263 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:53.360 but we're putting it aside. And during it there's a 264 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:56.639 lot of attempts to get sort of secret agents inside 265 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.600 Cleanon high Command and to figure out what's happening, and 266 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.559 in part because there are conflicts within the Klingons and 267 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.919 that there are all these different Klingon groups that are 268 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:10.240 fighting with each other for leadership, and so we discover 269 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:12.759 Section thirty one is this group that's doing sort of 270 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:17.399 clandestine things to figure all this out. And the biggest 271 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:18.600 thing they do, and the one that I think I 272 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:21.759 can kind of point to as really were there their 273 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:26.399 most shady is also during this part of the series 274 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:32.279 spoilers for season one of Discovery, but a character who 275 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:35.240 had appeared in the original pilot and had died in 276 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:40.679 the original pilot, Philippa Georgio played by Michelle Yeo incredible character, 277 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:47.080 wonderfully played. Her character dies, but then halfway through the season, 278 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.440 the version of her from the Mirror Universe, from the 279 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.840 Terran Empire comes back over to this side and she 280 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.399 was the emperor of the Terrant Empire, and there's all 281 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.840 kinds of shenanigans that get involved, but the end result 282 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:05.080 of it is she is, you know, finally, like Cornered. 283 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:08.440 She's done all sorts of crazy shenanigans in our universe 284 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:11.039 as well as the Mirror universe. She's caused the deaths 285 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:13.960 of hundreds of people. She's going to go on trial, 286 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.840 at which point Section thirty one steps in, and I 287 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.000 think they fake her death or some other way to 288 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.480 sort of get her off the board, but they basically 289 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.039 make it clear to our protagonists, Look, she has an 290 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.840 incredibly devious mind. We need her for Section thirty one. 291 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.840 We've made a deal to, you know, give her a 292 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.600 pardon for all the terrible things she's done in order 293 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:37.960 for her to work for us. For some this shadowy organization, 294 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.639 and our heroes are all pretty freaked out by this, because, 295 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.159 you know, eight this means that she's not having any 296 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:49.759 accountability for the terrible thing she does. But also if 297 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:53.480 the idea is that it's the most trustworthy person who's 298 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:57.279 running Section thirty one and therefore can say I won't 299 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.960 abuse the power to do things when I shouldn't do them. 300 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.480 Having her in that role, I think she becomes the 301 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:06.319 head of Section thirty one or shortly one of the 302 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.400 top leaders. Seems like a really bad idea. 303 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:13.640 Which leaving off there makes the start of this section 304 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:18.559 thirty one movie even more confusing and bad because she's 305 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:23.519 suddenly now like on another planet not involved in Section 306 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:27.279 thirty one, like semi on the lamp from them, but 307 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:28.319 they know where she is. 308 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:35.119 So and my understanding is that because it's Star Trek, 309 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:39.000 there's time travel involved, which will make things even more 310 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:44.000 confusing because you have people from multiple time periods interacting 311 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.440 and it's like you don't quite know when you are. 312 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.759 Yeah, I think the Discovery winds up jumping like eight 313 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.200 hundred years into the future after a very rough Season 314 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.400 two that's all about time travel. I don't know if 315 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.039 the second thirty one part of it jumps with them. 316 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:04.640 I don't remember it referenced to Section thirty one in 317 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.119 the eight hundred years in the Future timeline, but certainly 318 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.200 it plays a major part in their original series. 319 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.279 I don't remember in Discovery, but I know in lower 320 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:18.240 decks we get plenty of Section thirty one references and mentions, 321 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:23.559 and that's more God like post Voyager timeline. 322 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.319 Right, Yeah, so it certainly is existing at a number 323 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:35.200 of these times. Well, so let's talk about it within Starfleet. Riki, 324 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:37.799 you were saying about Section thirty one. I think the 325 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.359 the justification for it is that they need to have 326 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:46.519 it in times of crisis. As far as you can tell, 327 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:48.759 does it seem to make sense for Starfleet to have 328 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:49.519 this organization? 329 00:18:53.720 --> 00:19:00.880 Yes, and no standard answer, right, I think in the 330 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:06.200 context of this fictional universe, I think it makes sense. 331 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.960 The way that we have the CIA and that other 332 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:16.319 governments have intelligence agencies, I don't think it's good that 333 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.319 we have these agencies. And again, like the things that 334 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:23.680 they do are bad, and there should be more accountability, 335 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:27.519 even within your own country's power structure for the things 336 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:29.559 that people do, and there should not be off the 337 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:34.960 books things going on. But I think the idea that 338 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:39.240 when you are a superpower, like in the Galaxy, that 339 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:45.079 you have an organization that does things like clandestine operations 340 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:46.400 should happen. 341 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:47.720 Right. 342 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.000 But then, like in the context of Star Trek the 343 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.599 TV show, I'm one of those people that I enjoyed 344 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.759 the episodes that I watched on Deep Space nine, but 345 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:01.519 I don't really like it as a concept to explore 346 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:04.240 in Star Trek, right, is what I would say. 347 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:06.480 We'll talk about more with the Star Trek part. I 348 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:09.359 just want to start first with a starfleet aspect, abby 349 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:10.359 kind of what's your take. 350 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.880 I think it shouldn't exist, but the fact that it 351 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:21.680 does more proves my lifelong contention that Starfleet is the 352 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.200 military as much as they claim they're not. 353 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.839 No. Yeah, and I think that's a really good way 354 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:32.400 to put it, because I was thinking when I said 355 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.400 starfleet should I have asked the Federation and Starfleet is 356 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.759 often like the arm of the Federation. It's the part 357 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.839 of the Federation that most non Federation worlds will first experience. 358 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:50.039 And it feels like so much of what the Federation 359 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.000 is all about is these ideals that it has of 360 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.240 transparency and of open dialogue and of all, you know, 361 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:01.799 races being equal and welcome at the table. And yeah, 362 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:04.920 it feels like the Federation would never want to have it, 363 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:08.359 but that Starfleet would. And I actually kind of wonder 364 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:12.400 if that that's part of who it is kept from it, 365 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.480 Like do Federation high officials even know about this, or 366 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.440 is this very much a like creation of the military itself, 367 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:23.359 Because as you said, we do know star Trek intelligence. 368 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.319 Starfleet intelligence does exist, and we know they do spying missions. 369 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.640 A major part of the setup for Voyager is that 370 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:36.079 Tuvac was a Maquis on the ship of the Maquis, 371 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.440 but that he was actually working for star Trek Intelligence 372 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.240 as a spy to learn more about the Maquis and 373 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:46.480 help Janeway hunt them down. And I think, I just 374 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:48.359 keep going back to Riki what you're saying about, like 375 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:54.200 the accountability for me. Yeah, having a clandestine organization of 376 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.880 some kind in a world with a lot of secrets, 377 00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.960 in a world with a lot of alliances and shifting alliances. 378 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.079 I don't love it, but it makes sense. But when 379 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:06.079 it crosses that line into we are no longer accountable, 380 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.119 we are no longer within the chain of command, We 381 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.839 get to just do our own thing and other people 382 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:15.319 don't know about us, that's where to me both it 383 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.920 violates the spirit of what the Federation and Starfleet are 384 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.200 supposed to be about. But also I think to your 385 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:24.559 point Abby, like it is also completely believable that a 386 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:26.960 military that is set up to fight for these ideals 387 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:35.000 at some point say we've got to get our hands dirty. 388 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:39.079 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I have always 389 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:43.079 questioned what the heck Starfleet is and it changes from 390 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:45.640 show to show, and like who the characters are because 391 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:49.200 obviously in the second half of Deep Space nine, it's 392 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:54.039 just the military, right, But for most of the next 393 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:58.160 generation they're focused on exploration. Yeah, they get into conflicts, 394 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:02.480 they have weapons on their ships, but it's very clear 395 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:08.160 that in that era they are explorers and diplomats primarily. 396 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.720 And like in the original series era, on the one hand, 397 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.119 they are explorers, they are diplomats. But my personal favorite movie, 398 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.160 Raf of Khan, one of the plot points is that 399 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:26.920 doctor Carol Marcus is a scientist and she does not 400 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.720 want Starfleet getting her hands getting their hands on her 401 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.119