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<v Speaker 3>Follow the adventures of Sir Duncan the toll and is

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<v Speaker 3>Unlikely Squire Egg as they travel across the realm, battling

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<v Speaker 3>on now starring Peter Coffee and Dexter saw Ansel and

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<v Speaker 3>based on the novellas by George or Or Martin Stream

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<v Speaker 3>at weekly. Enjoyed this on more for only four ninety

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<v Speaker 4>Meaning the live man like this man letting butterfly, flapping.

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<v Speaker 2>His wing, dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna

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<v Speaker 2>cause a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>nobody's seen, nobody you know, need no Man. They pluck

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<v Speaker 2>you a little story and you got that way. Man.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't like to dag on the panel. Man, Man don't matter. Man.

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<v Speaker 4>All right. Finally, uh, after many many requests, Thomas and

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<v Speaker 4>I are returning to our series on the Occult. I

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<v Speaker 4>think it was good to take a little break. This

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<v Speaker 4>stuff does obviously get depressing, but we weren't done yet.

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<v Speaker 4>So you can stop sending me emails, you can stop

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<v Speaker 4>leaving comments. We're continuing the series, so Thomas, I'll kick

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<v Speaker 4>it back to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Man. Yeah, thanks for hosting me. You can't talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the phenomena of late twentieth century occultism in America and

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<v Speaker 2>that whole liminal tendency without dealing with the case of

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<v Speaker 2>the West Memphis three. And for those who don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>I assume most people do. They've at least heard of it.

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<v Speaker 2>This came into the public mind because in nineteen ninety

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<v Speaker 2>six there was this HBO documentary that was very heavily promoted.

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<v Speaker 2>It was called Paradise Lost the child Murders at robin

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<v Speaker 2>Hood Hills. And back then HBO had a reputation of

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<v Speaker 2>pretty serious documentary filmmaking. There was a series called America Undercover.

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<v Speaker 2>They produced that brand are the things that produced that

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<v Speaker 2>movie about Irish Mickey Ward's brothers crack addiction called High

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<v Speaker 2>on Crack Street. They made a whole movie about Mickey

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<v Speaker 2>Ward and his brother and they that documentary is a

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<v Speaker 2>plot device on the movie. And you know it it was.

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<v Speaker 2>It attracted pretty serious filmmakers. And also there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of money behind promoting these projects. So what the deal

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<v Speaker 2>was with this documentary film? These three little boys, these

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<v Speaker 2>three eight year old boys, they were savagely murdered in

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<v Speaker 2>this interstate town in rural Arkansas called Marion. Where the

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<v Speaker 2>boys were found was in this forest preserve behind a

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<v Speaker 2>truck stop called robin Hood Hills that was in West Memphis. Technically, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so that's why the defendants were called the West Memphis three.

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<v Speaker 2>This was on May fifth, nineteen ninety three, and nobody

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<v Speaker 2>really heard about it other than locally. But this film

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<v Speaker 2>dropped in nineteen ninety six. And the guys who were

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<v Speaker 2>behind this film, there's a guy named Joe Berlinger and

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce Sinowski, and they were both kind of these wannabes.

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<v Speaker 2>They came up through the There was kind of an

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<v Speaker 2>American version of the cinema veritaean movement. If you've ever

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<v Speaker 2>seen Gimme Shelter, this's the documentary on the on the Stones,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the ultimat Speedway concert that was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the sixties, as people have kind of

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<v Speaker 2>branded it. That was kind of the prime example of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And Berlinger and Sinofsky they'd been proteges of the guy

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<v Speaker 2>who made that film. Okay, so Sinofsky he was always

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<v Speaker 2>trying to establish himself as as this kind of serious documentarian,

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<v Speaker 2>but by the nineties that wasn't really in style. People

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<v Speaker 2>weren't really thirsty for that kind of filmmaking. And uh,

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<v Speaker 2>Sinofsky in his own right. What he was most known

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<v Speaker 2>for later that idiotic Metallica documentary where they're all crying

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<v Speaker 2>like bitches and going to therapy and stuff. He worked

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<v Speaker 2>on that. He was always kind of a wanna be

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<v Speaker 2>rock and roll guy. Okay, So Paradise Lost it was

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<v Speaker 2>really kind of shocking because the opening scene of it,

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<v Speaker 2>the camera pans over Robinood Hills and then it's almost

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<v Speaker 2>like trying for the will or something. It descends the

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<v Speaker 2>ground level. Then it costs the actual footage of the

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<v Speaker 2>dead bodies, you know, so it's it's like jarring, and

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<v Speaker 2>the film kind of presented this narrative of this town

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<v Speaker 2>being an evil town and there being something that conspired,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, within the within the culture to make this happen.

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<v Speaker 2>It didn't declare that these that the defendants were innocent,

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<v Speaker 2>but like all all documentary films about true crime, it

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<v Speaker 2>always tries to raise a at least the suggestion a

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<v Speaker 2>reasonable doubt, otherwise there's no narrative to it. But ultimately

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<v Speaker 2>these three teenagers were arrested for the crime. Damian Eccles,

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<v Speaker 2>Jesse mss Kelly Junior, and Jason Baldwin. And these three

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<v Speaker 2>guys all kind of fit a rural stereotype. Jesse miss

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly was this redneck with a mohawk, who was known

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<v Speaker 2>to his dad was next con. He was into hot

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<v Speaker 2>rods and getting drunk and growing. Jason Baldwin was this

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<v Speaker 2>unassuming guy, and this becomes relevant, the fact that he's

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<v Speaker 2>so unassuming, but he he kind of seemed like a

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<v Speaker 2>soft spoken every man kid with a mullet, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in a soft Southern drawl. But Damien Eccles, he was

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<v Speaker 2>a fella my acolyte with a self identified Satanist and

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<v Speaker 2>he was infamous in this town for being involved in

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<v Speaker 2>occult activities. So the documentary it kind of came to

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<v Speaker 2>focus on Damien Echo just because he was so strange

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<v Speaker 2>and like a lot of poor Southerners, both white guys

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<v Speaker 2>and black guys, he had that kind of sensibility that

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<v Speaker 2>for some reason fascinates a lot of bougie types. So

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<v Speaker 2>he kind of became the focus of this movie. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's the film is full of shots of these

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<v Speaker 2>Southern people kind of acting in stereotypical ways. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of shots of them at church where there's a

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<v Speaker 2>fire and brimstone pastor. You know. It kind of made

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<v Speaker 2>the people in this town seem as culturally out of

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<v Speaker 2>step and alien, as possible, and Berlinger then it kind

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<v Speaker 2>of become his m O. What put him on the

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<v Speaker 2>map as a documentary filmmaker was this movie called Brothers

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<v Speaker 2>Keeper that came out in nineteen ninety. That was this

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<v Speaker 2>gruesome case that took place in Utica, New York, which

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<v Speaker 2>is an upstate New York and these elderly brothers who

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<v Speaker 2>lived on this old estate that was worth a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of money, but they were these kinds of hermit hoarders.

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<v Speaker 2>One brother killed the other one, and as was alleged

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<v Speaker 2>by the state, it wasn't clear if he died in

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<v Speaker 2>natural cause, as if he was strangled. But there was

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<v Speaker 2>all these lured suggestions about homosexuality, incest, all kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>gruesome stuff, and this got whatever was going sort of

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<v Speaker 2>a tabloid story. It got all this praise from these

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<v Speaker 2>sort of artsy people in Hollywood types. So Berlinger really

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<v Speaker 2>got the bug for kind of trying to impress that

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<v Speaker 2>that whole community.

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<v Speaker 4>You know well, and Thomas, you spoke earlier about the narrative,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, within the documentary, But the way that this

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<v Speaker 4>story is cast in popular culture is very much in

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<v Speaker 4>the same language as the Satanic Panic. It's basically the

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<v Speaker 4>superstitious country pumpkins, you know, trying to you know, frame

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<v Speaker 4>these innocent teenagers. And I think that that's a big

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<v Speaker 4>part of the reason that this story and several of

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<v Speaker 4>the figures into it remained relevant through the George Bush

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<v Speaker 4>years because it became a sort of piece of that

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<v Speaker 4>anti fundamentalist narrative during the reaction to Bush the lesser.

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<v Speaker 4>But I'll kick it back to you, no.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred percent, and that's exactly what Echos and the

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<v Speaker 2>documentary really leaned into that, saying, you know, these people

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<v Speaker 2>in this town just hate my ass and they think

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<v Speaker 2>I worshiped Satan because they don't understand my religion. And

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<v Speaker 2>to be clear, this was nineteen ninety three, so even

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<v Speaker 2>if you accept the Satanic panic myth, that was all

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<v Speaker 2>over by then. What people were worried about in early

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<v Speaker 2>nineties was race, war stuff, organized gangs, which was a

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<v Speaker 2>real thing. The you know recession, particularly in places like

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<v Speaker 2>Mary in Arkansas, a lot of people are out of work.

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<v Speaker 2>And I made this point of people too, this came

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<v Speaker 2>up speaking of the sort of fundamentalist Christian boogeyman. You're

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<v Speaker 2>too young to remember this, but when McCain was running

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<v Speaker 2>against Obama, and he took on that silly woman as

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<v Speaker 2>his running mate, Sarah Palin. I remember people talking about

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<v Speaker 2>Palin and Alaska like these were a bunch of holy

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<v Speaker 2>roller hicks. I'm like, man, Alaska's first. It's like seventy

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<v Speaker 2>percent mail. It's full of rough and tumble military guys, uh, fishermen.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a it's a very it's a very unsavory culture.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of prostitution, a lot of drugs, casual violence.

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<v Speaker 2>People don't really understand what rural America's about. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>it's not a bunch of it's it's not a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of Mormons sitting around hiding people for having a beer.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very it's very rough and.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh exactly, and again not to keep interrupting you here, no,

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<v Speaker 4>but that is very much. It's sort of this like

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<v Speaker 4>view of everywhere that isn't you know Brooklyn or California

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<v Speaker 4>as just the kind of like narrowly constituted South, which

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<v Speaker 4>is basically this like you know, insane vision of like

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<v Speaker 4>you know what Selma must have been like. And to

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<v Speaker 4>your point, like Alaska is, I mean, sure, you know

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<v Speaker 4>they they vote read, but very very different culturally, very

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<v Speaker 4>different people it is not small town Southern America. But

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<v Speaker 4>back to you, Thomas.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And also Gary mess who wrote a really he

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<v Speaker 2>was a journalist for I think the I think the

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<v Speaker 2>Little Rock Gizette or whatever the Little Rock main legacy

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<v Speaker 2>print brand was. He wrote a lot of serious stuff

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<v Speaker 2>on this case, very critical of the documentary. But he

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<v Speaker 2>was when this was going on. I think he was

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<v Speaker 2>in his late twenties, and he's like, look this narrative

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<v Speaker 2>that Echos particularly was singled out for being a for

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<v Speaker 2>being into Metallica and wearing black. He's like, okay, Metallica

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<v Speaker 2>was the number one band in America in nineteen ninety three,

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<v Speaker 2>and if you've ever been to the rural South, everybody

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<v Speaker 2>likes heavy metal. Everybody likes black T shirts. I miss

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<v Speaker 2>I think actually got he captured a shot. One of

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<v Speaker 2>the cops who rested Echos was he was like this, Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>he was some special Task Force guy wearing a Mega

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<v Speaker 2>Death shirt. So this idea like, oh, in the South

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<v Speaker 2>and the nineties, everyone hates heavy metal when rock and

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<v Speaker 2>roll and they're afraid of you know, metallic. It's it's

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<v Speaker 2>like these people watched, uh, that old Kevin Bacon movie

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<v Speaker 2>where you're not allowed to dance and decided footloose or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like very gay and very silly, but like.

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<v Speaker 4>It know that was actually funny story that was actually filmed.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh not too far away from me. I've actually been there.

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<v Speaker 4>Interesting that looks like yeah because yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>No that you know, so this kind of crazy narrative

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<v Speaker 2>developed around it and then you know once uh and

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<v Speaker 2>to be originally, like I said, the original film, most

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<v Speaker 2>of that was coming from what Eccholes himself was saying

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<v Speaker 2>and Beryling you're obviously was trying to treat his subject

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<v Speaker 2>matter like a geek pit and say, look at these

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<v Speaker 2>crazy redneck hull abilities. But it wasn't really until after

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<v Speaker 2>it was released that beryln Dur and Sinofsky would fall

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<v Speaker 2>on into claiming these three guys were framed by the

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<v Speaker 2>bigoted South and the reason that happened. See I watched

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<v Speaker 2>that when it aired, because again this was summer nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety six and that was a huge boxing fan. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's right after HBO's Boxing After Dark had aired. This

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<v Speaker 2>was their they'd have championship boxing, usually welterweight and middleweight

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<v Speaker 2>and lightweight, but it was on at ten thirty pm

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<v Speaker 2>Central Time and they started promoting. They started running an

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<v Speaker 2>ad for this movie during Boxing after Dark, and they

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<v Speaker 2>presented it as, yeah, this was the Satanic Murderer, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, wow, that's nuts. So I watched it

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, Okay, that wasn't bad, but it's obvious

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<v Speaker 2>those guys are guilty. And pretty much everybody I knew

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<v Speaker 2>was like, yeah, that that was an interesting documentary. Really

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<v Speaker 2>nothing to see there. But then suddenly Hollywood said, this

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<v Speaker 2>is a great movie about these people being framed and

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<v Speaker 2>this is an outrage. And first of all, I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>that's bizarre that Johnny Depp and Peter Jackson and the

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<v Speaker 2>Dixie Chicks and Henry Rollins He's always an idiot, but uh,

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<v Speaker 2>they really circled the wagons around this. And I remember

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<v Speaker 2>at the time even other people in media saying, well,

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<v Speaker 2>what did you see about this movie that I didn't see?

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<v Speaker 2>Like why why do you think that? But Berylinger, who

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<v Speaker 2>was always a starfucker to begin with, he goes full

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<v Speaker 2>odd like, yeah, you're right, that's why I made this movie.

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<v Speaker 2>So suddenly he becomes, you know, mister Innocence Project for

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<v Speaker 2>the West Memphis three. When he realizes that he got

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<v Speaker 2>the attention of Hollywood, which he was always trying to

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<v Speaker 2>do period. So he proceeded to make this crazy easy

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<v Speaker 2>sequel that now no one talks about anymore, that was

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<v Speaker 2>essentially a hit piece on one of the victim's stepfathers,

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<v Speaker 2>which uh it made no sense whatsoever, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>that he couldn't capture the same fire in a bottle

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<v Speaker 2>with that one. But uh, you know, this became this

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<v Speaker 2>became this huge uh cause celebrate and one of the uh,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons I'm disgusted by John Douglas is because,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the the the mind Hunter guy. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>he's a total fraud criminal profiling is nonsense, total pseudoscience.

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<v Speaker 2>When the when when Damian Eckles got all this Hollywood

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<v Speaker 2>money and uh in g O money to fight his

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<v Speaker 2>case post conviction, you know, uh Douglas is available to

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<v Speaker 2>hives bidder, you know, to claim that based on his

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<v Speaker 2>mind Hunter probably profiling expertise, he can divinate if people

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<v Speaker 2>are guilty or not. So he came out he joined

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<v Speaker 2>this this uh bandwagon too. I mean he does that

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<v Speaker 2>all the time. He's he got paid by jeoh Many

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<v Speaker 2>Ramsey's mom, who obviously murdered her and uh the lead

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<v Speaker 2>detective on the case wrote a whole book about it,

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<v Speaker 2>which I advise anybody read if they're taken in by

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<v Speaker 2>this delusion that there's some mystery behind what happened to

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<v Speaker 2>that little girl. But her very wealthy parents hired John

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<v Speaker 2>Douglas to basically either pr man. I mean, he's he's

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<v Speaker 2>a scumbig, but uh, you know he uh he's he's

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<v Speaker 2>very much got clout with the kinds of rubs or

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<v Speaker 2>in the true crime and things, so that further sort

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<v Speaker 2>of I'm a de momentum behind this. But what it uh,

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<v Speaker 2>what when it comes down to, was that what was

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<v Speaker 2>presented in this film doesn't reflect the evident record at all. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>the claim is that Damian Nichols was just this cool

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<v Speaker 2>kid who was into heavy metal music. He got singled

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<v Speaker 2>out by fundamentalist biggots who hated him. He having to

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<v Speaker 2>be friends with this guy Jason Baldwin who just got

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<v Speaker 2>roped in for being friends with him and Jesse miss

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly was mentally retarded and the police tortured him for

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<v Speaker 2>two days and an interrogation, and then he signed a

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<v Speaker 2>false confession. That's not what happened, and we'll get into

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<v Speaker 2>this as we go on. But the police didn't even

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<v Speaker 2>intend to indict Jesse miss Kelly because they had no

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<v Speaker 2>idea he was involved. He confessed repeatedly, then he confessed

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<v Speaker 2>to his lawyer, then he confessed to his cellmate, then

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<v Speaker 2>he confessed after he was convicted and sitting in prison

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<v Speaker 2>serving his fifty year bit that this kid can't stop confessing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and again he he's not mentally retarded, he's stupid.

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<v Speaker 2>But even by the metric of the Supreme Court, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they arbitrarily said, if your IQ is under seventy, you

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<v Speaker 2>can't you can't be executed because she likes the ability

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<v Speaker 2>to You're too stupid basically to formuly specific intent, I

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<v Speaker 2>think is the reasoning. But I mean, even by that

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<v Speaker 2>metric or the colloaquial metric, he's not mentally retarded. But

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<v Speaker 2>the way the way this basically shook out was obviously

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<v Speaker 2>triple homicide a three eight year olds that that them

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<v Speaker 2>that's shocking. But also I mean that's that that's a

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00:20:53.960 --> 00:21:03.839
<v Speaker 2>very strange crime, Okay, And to be clear, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>this is a this is a disgusting case. So if

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing upsets you, you might want to

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<v Speaker 2>skip forward or two out. But one of the boys

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<v Speaker 2>bled to death because he was castrated. The other two

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<v Speaker 2>were severely beaten. Then they were immersed in this irrigation

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<v Speaker 2>ditch and drowned. They know that the one boy bled

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<v Speaker 2>out because he didn't have water on his lungs. He

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<v Speaker 2>was and this becomes important to what was alleged in

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<v Speaker 2>the post conviction appeals. Okay, being that they were immersed

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<v Speaker 2>in water, that eliminated quite a bit of evidence, particularly

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00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:59.720
<v Speaker 2>biological evidence. But one of the boys, there was trace

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00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.519
<v Speaker 2>him us a seminal fluid on his genes, and obviously

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<v Speaker 2>an eight year old is not mature enough to ejaculate,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's clear that there was some sort of I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>based on these circumstances, it's clear that that there was

309
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:23.839
<v Speaker 2>there was a sexual aspect to this too. Okay, they

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't type the DNA of the seminal fluid because it

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00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:39.039
<v Speaker 2>wasn't an adequate leave luminous sample. But you know the

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<v Speaker 2>reason why Eccles became the folks of this investigation was

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<v Speaker 2>for a few reasons. The police kept on hearing that

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00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Eccholes had confessed to this to various people when he

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00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.519
<v Speaker 2>was drunk not in a remorseful way, but in an

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00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:02.720
<v Speaker 2>offhand way or because he was bragging. Now Echles wasn't

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00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:05.720
<v Speaker 2>arrested for until months later. Okay, so this wasn't some

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00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.960
<v Speaker 2>rush to judgment, and he wasn't even arrested when the

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<v Speaker 2>police first received sworn statements from people claiming that he'd

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<v Speaker 2>made these confessions in their presence. But you know, proble

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<v Speaker 2>cause to arrest is not probable cause to convict, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's it has nothing to do with the manifest weight

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00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:35.319
<v Speaker 2>of evidence. It's merely probable cause to arrest. So the

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<v Speaker 2>character is somebody and their behavior patterns overall is relevant.

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<v Speaker 2>And looking into ecchos background because desplayer when Eckles claimed

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<v Speaker 2>he wasn't terrorized by the police throughout his life and

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<v Speaker 2>they weren't keeping a dossier on him. Nobody even really

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00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.559
<v Speaker 2>knew who he was other than his in his local

329
00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.480
<v Speaker 2>you know people, his own age and stuff. But he

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<v Speaker 2>had a history of violence. He'd been in and out

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<v Speaker 2>of psychiatric hospitals, most recently in Little Rock at Charter

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<v Speaker 2>Hospital in June nineteen ninety two. He had a history

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<v Speaker 2>of setting fires. He got in trouble for chasing another

334
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<v Speaker 2>kid with an axe He was kicked out of school

335
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:30.200
<v Speaker 2>for a time for trying to gouge a kid's eye out.

336
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:42.279
<v Speaker 2>He was repeatedly suspended for fighting. He Jason Baldwin's cousin,

337
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<v Speaker 2>was interviewed by a homicide detective named Brent Ridge. This

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00:24:55.240 --> 00:25:01.880
<v Speaker 2>witness attested to the fact that he and Eccles and

339
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Jason Baldwin had been walking down the main road outside

340
00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:09.559
<v Speaker 2>of the trailer park they lived in, the Leafshore Trailer Park.

341
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:12.839
<v Speaker 2>Echles came upon a dog that was in some way

342
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:17.119
<v Speaker 2>sick or injured and uh that Goles calmly grabbed a

343
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:21.680
<v Speaker 2>brick and began banshing the dogs head in until it died.

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<v Speaker 2>You know this, Uh, a pattern emerges of sadism and

345
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:49.799
<v Speaker 2>violent tendencies outside of the what's normal for you know,

346
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.000
<v Speaker 2>your accounting for the kind of anti social tendencies a

347
00:25:52.079 --> 00:26:00.759
<v Speaker 2>teenager boys. You know. But what was most h what

348
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:06.519
<v Speaker 2>got the police's attention, particularly Brent Ridge and his immediate superior,

349
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<v Speaker 2>Gary Gotschell Lewis, the lead investigator. Eckles had gotten in

350
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<v Speaker 2>trouble for having relations with an underage girlfriend named Deanna

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<v Speaker 2>Holcombe when Eccles was seventeen or eighteen and she was

352
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<v Speaker 2>fourteen or fifteen, and he caught charges for statutory rape

353
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<v Speaker 2>or whatever the equivalent is in that hotel, and Echoles

354
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<v Speaker 2>had apparently told Deanna Holcombe. She attested to this to

355
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<v Speaker 2>the juvenile officer in charge of the case. Jerry Driver

356
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.519
<v Speaker 2>told her that he wanted to get her pregnant and

357
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<v Speaker 2>he wanted her to deliver bring the child to term,

358
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<v Speaker 2>and he wanted them to sacrifice the child to some

359
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:16.200
<v Speaker 2>deity because he said that, you know, if you if

360
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:24.200
<v Speaker 2>you can divinate the correct deity or supernatural intelligence and

361
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:28.839
<v Speaker 2>sacrifice to them, you can absorb that victim's power. And

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<v Speaker 2>he said that according to Thelema. Whether this is an

363
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:35.680
<v Speaker 2>accurate reading of Theelema or not, I don't know. He said,

364
00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>according to Thelema, you know, the crowleag system, an infant

365
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:44.279
<v Speaker 2>or a little boy, particularly a male child, they've got

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<v Speaker 2>the most power that could be taken by somebody who

367
00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:57.079
<v Speaker 2>sacrifices them incident to the correct ritual, you know. And

368
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:05.599
<v Speaker 2>this didn't lead the more enhanced charges against Echos, but

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<v Speaker 2>it did lead to the court ordering a psychiatric evaluation.

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<v Speaker 2>And now, mind you, I don't have any great faith

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<v Speaker 2>in the medical profession on its own terms. But I

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00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:35.480
<v Speaker 2>also don't if discount diagnosedes rendered by qualified experts without

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<v Speaker 2>cause to do so. This evaluation ordered by the court

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<v Speaker 2>from nineteen ninety two suggested that, according to the diagnostic

375
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<v Speaker 2>criteria then utilized by the APA, Echoals had sociopathic tendencies

376
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:17.680
<v Speaker 2>and he was prone to gradiose and delusional thinking. He

377
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:26.920
<v Speaker 2>apparently disclosed that he drank the blood of other people

378
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:36.319
<v Speaker 2>because he said that you can obtain power by doing

379
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:41.720
<v Speaker 2>so in small ways, because life force is contained in

380
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:48.880
<v Speaker 2>certain bodily fluids, particularly blood, and he claimed that he

381
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:56.240
<v Speaker 2>learned about this owing to his unusual religious beliefs. Interestingly,

382
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:58.519
<v Speaker 2>he never referred himself as a Satanist. When he was

383
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:05.000
<v Speaker 2>being availed to these sorts of diagnostic protocols, he'd he'd

384
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:08.279
<v Speaker 2>simply say that, you know, he was a male witch,

385
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.240
<v Speaker 2>or he was a pagan, or he was, you know,

386
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:20.519
<v Speaker 2>an accolyte of Crowley. But that's that's where the police

387
00:30:20.599 --> 00:30:25.759
<v Speaker 2>got this idea of him being an occultist. He said

388
00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:29.880
<v Speaker 2>he was, and we'll get into this and some of

389
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:37.559
<v Speaker 2>this witness testimony. People said multiple witnesses, Miss Kelly Echoes

390
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.640
<v Speaker 2>himself declared himself to be an occultist Miss Kelly himself

391
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<v Speaker 2>said Echos and a lot of people he knew were

392
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:53.519
<v Speaker 2>into Satanic worship. Another witness named LG. Hollingsworth, who was

393
00:30:54.640 --> 00:31:01.240
<v Speaker 2>dead by the time of the proceedings, I believe, he

394
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:06.279
<v Speaker 2>said that in Marion it was well known that there

395
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:10.839
<v Speaker 2>was an occult subculture. So I mean, this is what

396
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:17.279
<v Speaker 2>the police were hearing from all these people who were

397
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:21.440
<v Speaker 2>in the prime suspect's orbit, and this is what their

398
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:27.240
<v Speaker 2>prime suspect was had told the juvenile officer presiding over

399
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:30.079
<v Speaker 2>his case for statutory rape. And this is what he

400
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.519
<v Speaker 2>was telling the psychiatrists who'd interview him when he was

401
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:41.400
<v Speaker 2>periodically ending up in psychiatric facilities for violent conduct. People

402
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:43.839
<v Speaker 2>weren't looking at Damon Eccols and saying, oh, he has

403
00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:47.440
<v Speaker 2>a metallic assured I think he worships the devil, you know.

404
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:54.039
<v Speaker 2>And to be clear, and I mean, I I'm not

405
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:56.480
<v Speaker 2>one of these people who looks down on the rural

406
00:31:56.599 --> 00:32:03.000
<v Speaker 2>South or something like quite the contrary, but there is

407
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:08.039
<v Speaker 2>a weird subculture and a lot of these rural places,

408
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.319
<v Speaker 2>and particularly places that are kind of sustained by the interstate,

409
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:14.920
<v Speaker 2>like Marion, you get you get a lot of carnival

410
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:16.960
<v Speaker 2>workers you get a lot of guys who spend most

411
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.720
<v Speaker 2>of their life on the road. You You've got you know,

412
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.000
<v Speaker 2>very very people with very very deep roots in this

413
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:34.079
<v Speaker 2>country who still abide folk ways from the old country.

414
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:39.440
<v Speaker 2>There's something pagan uh about it. A lot of these

415
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:45.400
<v Speaker 2>people's belief structures, you know, in a way that you

416
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.000
<v Speaker 2>don't really find among white people up North, Okay, even

417
00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:53.440
<v Speaker 2>poorer ones. That's not some kind of prejudice or some

418
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.559
<v Speaker 2>or some sort of stereotype about you know, stupid primitive

419
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:05.359
<v Speaker 2>hillbillies or something. I mean that that's a fact, you know.

420
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.960
<v Speaker 2>So I tend to I tend to believe what some

421
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:14.440
<v Speaker 2>of these people were saying. This wasn't just them being

422
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:25.160
<v Speaker 2>paranoid or or developing paranoiac ideas or something. You know.

423
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:32.079
<v Speaker 2>It uh in two thousand and one, and we're jumping

424
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:36.000
<v Speaker 2>ahead a little bit, but it's material to the subject

425
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.680
<v Speaker 2>matter or the point that we're at in the subject matter.

426
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:50.480
<v Speaker 2>At Doctor George W. Woods, a Berkeley, California psychiatrist, he

427
00:33:54.359 --> 00:34:02.319
<v Speaker 2>evaluated echoes incident to one of his post conviction appeals.

428
00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:06.880
<v Speaker 2>And to be clear, a post conviction appeal, you're arguing

429
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:10.840
<v Speaker 2>it on, I won't over the subs at death with

430
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:16.760
<v Speaker 2>all the nuances. Once your direct appeals are exhausted, a

431
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:20.840
<v Speaker 2>post conviction appeal it's a collateral attack on your conviction,

432
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:25.800
<v Speaker 2>either premised on actual innocence or subset of violation of

433
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:30.960
<v Speaker 2>constitutional rights. So it's always timely, okay, and you can

434
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:40.119
<v Speaker 2>file as many of them as you want. So it's

435
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:46.320
<v Speaker 2>not clear to me who of echals attorneys commission woulds

436
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:51.880
<v Speaker 2>to analyze echals record or if he just did this

437
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:59.639
<v Speaker 2>on his own accord, But they're no. His evaluation of

438
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:02.039
<v Speaker 2>their quest by the Eccles defense team, all right, strike that,

439
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:09.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, and his evaluation was promised on the claim

440
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:12.599
<v Speaker 2>was gonna. What eccles post conviction team was trying to

441
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.480
<v Speaker 2>allege was that he'd been incompetent to stand trial. Okay,

442
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:24.920
<v Speaker 2>So this was several years after his conviction, and what

443
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:31.159
<v Speaker 2>was the termine That Eccles was periodically actively delusional owing

444
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:37.800
<v Speaker 2>to a tendency towards manic episodes, and that one of

445
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:50.480
<v Speaker 2>that throws of psychotic euphoria Eccles. Eccles believed that deities

446
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:56.039
<v Speaker 2>or supernatural forces were transforming him into a superior entity

447
00:35:56.440 --> 00:36:03.199
<v Speaker 2>or conferring power upon him, and direct his activity in

448
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:09.320
<v Speaker 2>criminal capacities would claim was that or his conclusion was

449
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:12.960
<v Speaker 2>that Echos wasn't incompetent as a matter of law, but

450
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:24.239
<v Speaker 2>that he was delusional and periodically psychotic. The Minnesota Multiphasic

451
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:32.199
<v Speaker 2>Personality Inventory, that's what the court generally relies upon in

452
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 2>terms of psychiatric and mental health experts. Echles was administered

453
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:46.360
<v Speaker 2>the MMPI on June eighth, nineteen ninety two, September second,

454
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:52.639
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety two, in February of nineteen ninety four. Each

455
00:36:52.679 --> 00:37:07.760
<v Speaker 2>of these test results indicated strong profiles of mania, delusional psychosis, depression,

456
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:21.760
<v Speaker 2>and periodic psychotic periodic or intermittent psychotic thinking, including paranoid ideation, delusions,

457
00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and related emotional disturbances. Now, once again, and obviously, I

458
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:53.000
<v Speaker 2>mean this is part of the public record because these

459
00:37:53.039 --> 00:38:00.000
<v Speaker 2>reports and this testimony was udded into evidence. These conclusions

460
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:08.760
<v Speaker 2>were based on symptoms and belief structures and ideas that

461
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:14.639
<v Speaker 2>that that Egos conveyed to the to the psychiatrists or

462
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the diagnosticians were presiding over these tests. The administrators of

463
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:27.920
<v Speaker 2>these tests didn't confabulate speculative things about Damien Eckles. He's

464
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the one who's reporting belief in deities. He's the one

465
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.239
<v Speaker 2>who's reporting ideas about drinking human blood. He's the one

466
00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:39.559
<v Speaker 2>who's reporting belief in supernatural phenomena that he could access

467
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:44.599
<v Speaker 2>owing to some sort of competence and in divinating these

468
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:50.800
<v Speaker 2>these these things or these alien intelligences, you know, and

469
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.599
<v Speaker 2>something else that's relevant to me. I mean, that's relevant

470
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:04.880
<v Speaker 2>in my opinion. I although it's not just positive anything

471
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.920
<v Speaker 2>in of itself. You know, Eccles or at his defense

472
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:16.840
<v Speaker 2>team both that trial and post conviction, they claimed, Okay,

473
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:18.960
<v Speaker 2>so Eckles is supposed to the subject of this witch

474
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:23.360
<v Speaker 2>hunt in this small town and this is prejudiced against him. Well,

475
00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:27.840
<v Speaker 2>Eckles had this bizarre familial arrangement. I guess his mom

476
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:31.280
<v Speaker 2>was fifteen and his dad was seventeen when they got married.

477
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:36.800
<v Speaker 2>And and they got married because she was pregnant. I'm

478
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.239
<v Speaker 2>not saying anything wrong with young people getting married and

479
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 2>in event of pregnancy or not, but you know, they

480
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:46.400
<v Speaker 2>it was a shotgun marriage. I guess eckles birth father

481
00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:49.159
<v Speaker 2>was for all practical purposes it literate and had all

482
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:55.320
<v Speaker 2>kinds of mental problems. So they got his name was

483
00:39:55.400 --> 00:40:00.719
<v Speaker 2>Joe Hutchinson, and they got divorced early on, So Eccles

484
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:04.840
<v Speaker 2>was raised by this much older man, whose mom subsequently

485
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:11.880
<v Speaker 2>married name of Eccles. Then, when Eccles was a young teenager,

486
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.159
<v Speaker 2>his birth father came back into his life and his mom,

487
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:19.719
<v Speaker 2>who was estranged from this Eccles, they remarried his birth father.

488
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:24.800
<v Speaker 2>And eccles birth father was just a terran kind of

489
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:30.840
<v Speaker 2>laborer who has lived a kind of unstable life, and

490
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:34.079
<v Speaker 2>he moved he up and moved the family to Portland, Oregon,

491
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:39.280
<v Speaker 2>when Eccles was seventeen, sixteen seventeen in nineteen ninety two.

492
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:43.880
<v Speaker 2>So Eckles is living in Portland and he's doing everything

493
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:47.519
<v Speaker 2>he can to get back to Marion, and he's acting out.

494
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:50.280
<v Speaker 2>He's saying, I don't belong here. I belong in Marion

495
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:54.880
<v Speaker 2>with my friends. You know, It's like, Okay, Portland, even

496
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:57.639
<v Speaker 2>back then, if you want to fly your freak flag

497
00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.320
<v Speaker 2>and do what Eccles did, that'd be about the best

498
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:03.599
<v Speaker 2>place he could do it. Okay. So he's doing everything

499
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:06.480
<v Speaker 2>he can to was skate Portland that he hates staying

500
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:09.039
<v Speaker 2>there and he wants to go back to Marion, where

501
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:12.599
<v Speaker 2>supposedly he's being terrorized by these witch hunt rednecks. Really

502
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:18.480
<v Speaker 2>does that make any sense? So he ends up hospitalized

503
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:24.880
<v Speaker 2>in UH Portland because his father calls the police on him,

504
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:28.079
<v Speaker 2>saying and the and the police report said that Eccholes

505
00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:32.599
<v Speaker 2>was threatening to kill the family, kill his father and

506
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.760
<v Speaker 2>and and and kill his whole family basically if they

507
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.599
<v Speaker 2>didn't let him go back to Marion, and he was

508
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:44.480
<v Speaker 2>threatening suicide and everything else. So he ends up in

509
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:50.960
<v Speaker 2>the psych word yet again in Portland. And this is

510
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.360
<v Speaker 2>all he was on probation from the statutory rape charge

511
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.400
<v Speaker 2>he caught, and his probation had been transferred to Oregon,

512
00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:02.239
<v Speaker 2>so there was this issue of him having the transfer

513
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:05.960
<v Speaker 2>his paperwork back to this juvenile officer Jerry Driver, who

514
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.559
<v Speaker 2>again Eckles claim, was supposedly out to get him and

515
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:13.119
<v Speaker 2>framing him. So he's he's going back into the out,

516
00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:15.559
<v Speaker 2>out of the out of the frying pan, into the fire,

517
00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:18.880
<v Speaker 2>recording his own claims about what goes on in this town,

518
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.800
<v Speaker 2>you know. But finally he ends up going back to

519
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:30.079
<v Speaker 2>Marion and lives with his UH, lives with Eccles, his UH,

520
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:33.159
<v Speaker 2>his stepfather who's now a strange from his mom. You know,

521
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:37.639
<v Speaker 2>we apparently didn't get along with basically his parents begged

522
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.519
<v Speaker 2>this mister Eckles to take him in because they couldn't

523
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:42.599
<v Speaker 2>deal with him, and he was demanding to go back

524
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.400
<v Speaker 2>to Marion. You knows he did everything in his power.

525
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:49.840
<v Speaker 2>You know that that a teenager tan by acting out

526
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:55.320
<v Speaker 2>cajoling threats to go back to the jurisdiction where he

527
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:58.079
<v Speaker 2>claims he was framed and cident to this years on

528
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:03.159
<v Speaker 2>pattern of terrorism and are asked, you know, and anecdotally,

529
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:11.199
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't make any sense it, you know, And again

530
00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:16.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of particularly in criminal cases, not just because

531
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:20.400
<v Speaker 2>the evidentry standard is different. It's a totally different thing

532
00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:23.599
<v Speaker 2>than a similar matter. It's I mean that that's a

533
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:29.639
<v Speaker 2>discussion in its own right, but the totality of circumstances

534
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:37.360
<v Speaker 2>mayors particularly compared to what people do incident to the

535
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:41.320
<v Speaker 2>circumstances they describe, and whether it complies with the sort

536
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:45.920
<v Speaker 2>of picture of reality is they perceived it or if

537
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:56.199
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't, And if it doesn't, that indicates deception, you know.

538
00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:57.679
<v Speaker 2>And if you're on trial for your life, why are

539
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:01.760
<v Speaker 2>you lying about things that If I want to trial

540
00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:04.519
<v Speaker 2>for my life, I'm either gonna say nothing at all, well,

541
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:10.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna tell the truth because and to be clear,

542
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:13.320
<v Speaker 2>Echoes was looking at the death kind of leap. You know,

543
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:22.239
<v Speaker 2>So there's that which I don't know itself, doesn't prove anything,

544
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:34.280
<v Speaker 2>but it's absolutely material and relevant, you know, to be clear.

545
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:52.000
<v Speaker 2>The way, uh, y'all say that for next time. There's

546
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:57.159
<v Speaker 2>something I wanted to approach, but I I don't want to.

547
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:06.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to go to that rabbit hole. Yeah, yeah,

548
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.159
<v Speaker 2>So don't go ahead. I'm just trying to find my interjection.

549
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:15.039
<v Speaker 4>You spoke a little bit about the scene of the

550
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:19.840
<v Speaker 4>crime and the way in which obviously the fact that

551
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.719
<v Speaker 4>there was you know, these boys were found basically in

552
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:31.679
<v Speaker 4>like a drainage ditch or a creek, several things. One effectively,

553
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:34.360
<v Speaker 4>what happened is that the you know, the boys' parents

554
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:37.679
<v Speaker 4>had sent them out to play together at around six

555
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.400
<v Speaker 4>point thirty, right around eight, they began to get worried.

556
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:43.920
<v Speaker 4>They walked all over the area of the woods they

557
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:46.960
<v Speaker 4>were playing in, even to the point of basically apparently

558
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:49.800
<v Speaker 4>forming you know, line to line arm and arm and

559
00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:53.440
<v Speaker 4>walking across the area, getting apparently quite close to the

560
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:56.599
<v Speaker 4>eventual scene of the crime. When they found them the

561
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:59.480
<v Speaker 4>next day, I believe an officer discovered one of their

562
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:02.880
<v Speaker 4>shoes in the ditch, which led to discovering the rest

563
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:06.960
<v Speaker 4>of the bodies. There are a couple of interesting things. One,

564
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:12.159
<v Speaker 4>the victims were found hogtied, basically bound kind of doubled

565
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:14.880
<v Speaker 4>over backwards, right, their wrist bound to their ankles.

566
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 2>It was very weird because yeah, it was like right wrist,

567
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:20.039
<v Speaker 2>right ankle, left wrist, left ankle. I've got a theory

568
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:21.480
<v Speaker 2>on that being go ahead.

569
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:25.280
<v Speaker 4>Well, right, and as you've said, you know, a lot

570
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:28.760
<v Speaker 4>of several pieces of their clothing were missing, some were

571
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:32.840
<v Speaker 4>never recovered, but because of the fact that they water logged,

572
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:36.639
<v Speaker 4>that made it somewhat difficult to determine. And the defense

573
00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:40.039
<v Speaker 4>really leaned into this, right They tried to you know,

574
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:43.960
<v Speaker 4>dispute you know, if they drowned, if they were killed

575
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:47.280
<v Speaker 4>with a knife, which was you know, one allegation. And also,

576
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:51.719
<v Speaker 4>of course the more kind of the sinister injuries which

577
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:54.679
<v Speaker 4>you mentioned earlier. They tried to you know, constitute that

578
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:58.159
<v Speaker 4>as animals after the fact, right, kind of scavengers coming

579
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:00.400
<v Speaker 4>and you know, doing the worst of the damage. Already

580
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:03.960
<v Speaker 4>deceased boys. So one, I'm curious to get your your

581
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.480
<v Speaker 4>theory on the way that the you know, the victims

582
00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:09.000
<v Speaker 4>were discovered. And also what do you make of you know,

583
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:13.320
<v Speaker 4>that defense. I mean a certain point. Look, if your

584
00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:15.880
<v Speaker 4>job is to you know, defend someone, you defend them

585
00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:18.440
<v Speaker 4>how you can, right, But at a certain point it

586
00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:21.960
<v Speaker 4>seems almost entirely irrelevant, you know, if this were you know,

587
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:24.000
<v Speaker 4>after the fact of the murder anyway. But I'm curious

588
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:24.960
<v Speaker 4>to get your thoughts, Thomas.

589
00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. The reason they focused on that and claimed to

590
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:36.599
<v Speaker 2>his animal predation is because the one of the a

591
00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:40.719
<v Speaker 2>knife that was recovered from behind Baldwin's house. It was

592
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:47.280
<v Speaker 2>a Rambo knife like serrated type knife. And uh, at trial,

593
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:53.440
<v Speaker 2>the corner concluded that a knife like that with a

594
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:58.199
<v Speaker 2>serrated blade was used to cast rate the victim. So

595
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:01.880
<v Speaker 2>the defense said, this boy wasn't castrated at all, it

596
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.440
<v Speaker 2>was animal predation. Well, he bled out, okay, unless these

597
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:09.239
<v Speaker 2>were trained animals that murdered him. Okay, not to be

598
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:13.079
<v Speaker 2>flippant about the murder of a child, but that's nonsense.

599
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:19.960
<v Speaker 2>I I looked at a lot of the evidence that

600
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:26.239
<v Speaker 2>there's this website, it's called Calvahan eight K it's every

601
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:31.599
<v Speaker 2>evidentary exhibit from the trial. And I spent a lot

602
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:33.880
<v Speaker 2>of time going over there, or I have like over

603
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:39.480
<v Speaker 2>the years. And this ditch at robin Wood Hills was

604
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:42.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of a there's this pipe bridge. It was literally

605
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:46.679
<v Speaker 2>a giant pipe, but it had rails welded on at

606
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:52.199
<v Speaker 2>some point and it went across this irrigation. It was

607
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:57.119
<v Speaker 2>like this irrigation ditch sort slash small pond, okay, and

608
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:06.760
<v Speaker 2>with a muddy bottom. I believe post mortem, they were

609
00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:09.880
<v Speaker 2>shoving or two of the boys. At least one of them.

610
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:15.280
<v Speaker 2>They he was still respirating, but he was unconscious post

611
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:18.039
<v Speaker 2>mortem in the case of two of them. The third

612
00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:20.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty confident they thought was dead. I believe they

613
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:24.079
<v Speaker 2>were trying to push them into the mud and limbs

614
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:29.039
<v Speaker 2>kept popping up, so they took the shoelaces and tied

615
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:33.719
<v Speaker 2>a arm to or wrist to ankle, wrist to ankle,

616
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:38.800
<v Speaker 2>shoved them into the mud, and at least for a time,

617
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:43.159
<v Speaker 2>the bodies remained submerged. That's a conclusion I came to.

618
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:50.559
<v Speaker 2>You know, the Corners report or the police report describes

619
00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:52.920
<v Speaker 2>them as being a hog tiede like not to be pedantic,

620
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.159
<v Speaker 2>but being properly hog tied is you know, like in

621
00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:56.519
<v Speaker 2>a bundle.

622
00:49:58.519 --> 00:49:58.599
<v Speaker 3>It.

623
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I think that's why that happened. And I'll get into

624
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:11.559
<v Speaker 2>blow by blow and the interrogations and the defendants in

625
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:19.159
<v Speaker 2>the next episode. But basically, here's what I believe happened,

626
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:21.400
<v Speaker 2>and at based this not just done the trial record,

627
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:23.800
<v Speaker 2>but what Gary Meaest described as well as miss Kelly's

628
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:28.920
<v Speaker 2>many confessions. Despite what people think, Baldwin actually was the

629
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:33.519
<v Speaker 2>ringleader of this because Baldwin's a straight up psycho. Okay,

630
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Eccles is a sick fuck. He's a sexual deviand he's

631
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:40.639
<v Speaker 2>a sadist. He isn't he's he isn't a cultist. Baldwin

632
00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:42.960
<v Speaker 2>doesn't care about all that. Bald is just stunk cold.

633
00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:49.039
<v Speaker 2>He just likes to hurt people. Miss Kelly is just

634
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:52.280
<v Speaker 2>a goon. Miss Kelly claims he was drunk and Evan

635
00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:56.480
<v Speaker 2>williams he's hanging out with miss Kelly. He's hanging out

636
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:04.679
<v Speaker 2>with Baldwin and Eccles and eccles girlfriend lived across town.

637
00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Baldwin and Eccles and miss Kelly all lived in this

638
00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:15.079
<v Speaker 2>trailer park and across town was h eccles girlfriend's residence.

639
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Her name was Dominie Tier. He'd walk pretty much every

640
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:21.239
<v Speaker 2>day to go see Dominie Tier and the short cut

641
00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:26.960
<v Speaker 2>he take was through robin Hood Woods. Okay, So Baldwin

642
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and Eccles go to miss Kelly's trailer and they're like, yeah,

643
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:32.000
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna we're gonna go party and we're gonna like

644
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.119
<v Speaker 2>fuck up these kids who've been like at our spot,

645
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:39.159
<v Speaker 2>meaning robin Wood Hills. Miss Kelly's like, okay, he's always

646
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:43.719
<v Speaker 2>down to like go fuck somebody up. So they get

647
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.239
<v Speaker 2>there and they see these three little kids playing around

648
00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:52.760
<v Speaker 2>and according to uh, according to miss Kelly, Baldwin goes

649
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.079
<v Speaker 2>and grabs one of them, and his friends start running.

650
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:57.079
<v Speaker 2>So Baldwin pulls a Knight and say it's come back

651
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:01.840
<v Speaker 2>or he's dead. So Baldwin escalated right away, So the

652
00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:06.000
<v Speaker 2>kids come back. Miss Kelly grabs on the bomb and

653
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:09.599
<v Speaker 2>starts just beating on him. He looks over, he says,

654
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:14.039
<v Speaker 2>Eccles is got this kid and he's like molesting him.

655
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:16.800
<v Speaker 2>So miss Kelly says, he's kind of like the fuck.

656
00:52:18.440 --> 00:52:23.760
<v Speaker 2>Then he says he looks over at Baldwin and Baldwin's

657
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:27.559
<v Speaker 2>cutting on the kid, and he said the kid's screaming,

658
00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:31.360
<v Speaker 2>and then he goes silent, and then he said he

659
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:34.199
<v Speaker 2>saw Baldwin. He said, I thought he was stabbing him,

660
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:43.440
<v Speaker 2>but he was castrating him. Eccles isn't shocked because even

661
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.440
<v Speaker 2>though he's like raping this kid, basically, according to miss Kelly,

662
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:50.079
<v Speaker 2>goes with no idea, like bald was getting straight up

663
00:52:50.079 --> 00:53:02.159
<v Speaker 2>like murder the kid. So Eccles freaks out starts strangling

664
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:07.000
<v Speaker 2>the kid that he's got. Miss Kelly says, he's kind

665
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:10.480
<v Speaker 2>of in shock, so he let the kid go. He

666
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:14.199
<v Speaker 2>starts running, he said, Baldwin goes get him, and either

667
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:17.840
<v Speaker 2>out of fear of Baldwin or just you know, fear

668
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:23.199
<v Speaker 2>of a witness ideing him, miss Kelly goes and brings

669
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:27.199
<v Speaker 2>the kid back, and he said quite literally delivered him

670
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:31.760
<v Speaker 2>to Baldwin, and then Baldwin did him too, you know.

671
00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:42.159
<v Speaker 2>And uh, that basically tracks with the crime scene. And uh,

672
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:51.000
<v Speaker 2>the luminol test thing obviously exists on soft ground, basically wetlands.

673
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:55.360
<v Speaker 2>It was limited in what could be revealed, but what

674
00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:00.679
<v Speaker 2>was revealed it basically tracked with what miss Kelly said.

675
00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:06.920
<v Speaker 2>And the filmmakers Bell and jurn Sinofsky, as well as

676
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:11.079
<v Speaker 2>the post defense team, they made a big issue out of, Oh,

677
00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:13.760
<v Speaker 2>miss Kelly was wrong by the time of day. No,

678
00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:18.039
<v Speaker 2>here's what miss Kelly was doing. The kids were murdered

679
00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:23.280
<v Speaker 2>after dark, Okay. Miss Kelly kept saying, oh, yeah, I

680
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:26.079
<v Speaker 2>was there, and you know, I helped him restrain the kids.

681
00:54:26.199 --> 00:54:28.719
<v Speaker 2>Then I left. Oh it was before it got dark

682
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:32.559
<v Speaker 2>that I left. Like in his kind of like ignorant mind,

683
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:35.440
<v Speaker 2>he thought he was getting himself off of murder charges

684
00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:39.119
<v Speaker 2>by saying, oh, yeah, I believe me. I participated in it,

685
00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:41.960
<v Speaker 2>but I was gone before the murder happened. That's what

686
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.199
<v Speaker 2>he was doing. He wasn't being fed dada by the

687
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:48.079
<v Speaker 2>cops and screwing up the time of day. It's obvious

688
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:50.840
<v Speaker 2>if you read that, that's what he's doing. Okay, and

689
00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:58.840
<v Speaker 2>what's really the cops? Two things here and again this

690
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:05.559
<v Speaker 2>is very gross. One of the boys head, uh, you'reine

691
00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:12.239
<v Speaker 2>in his stomach and obviously, uh you know the uh,

692
00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:17.599
<v Speaker 2>the other boy was castrated. That wasn't release to anybody.

693
00:55:18.280 --> 00:55:24.719
<v Speaker 2>Miss Kelly knew that, you know, it wasn't even release

694
00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:28.559
<v Speaker 2>that there was any edged weapon injuries, let alone castration.

695
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:30.920
<v Speaker 2>And the first thing out of miss Kelly's mouth is yeah,

696
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:34.719
<v Speaker 2>then Jason started cutting on him. How do you know that?

697
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:40.880
<v Speaker 4>So what do you make of this other character that

698
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:45.239
<v Speaker 4>call him you know mister Bojangles right that, you know,

699
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:49.679
<v Speaker 4>after the crime, a manager at a local boj Angles said, yeah,

700
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:53.159
<v Speaker 4>there's this you know, older black guy comes in, you know,

701
00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:56.079
<v Speaker 4>kind of bloody, disgruntled, cleans himself up in the bathroom

702
00:55:56.079 --> 00:55:59.519
<v Speaker 4>and leaves. And at least some sources indicate that there

703
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:02.599
<v Speaker 4>was you know, hair found in one of the blankets

704
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:05.360
<v Speaker 4>wrapping up one of the bodies that could have been

705
00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:07.559
<v Speaker 4>linked to a you know, a guy of African descent.

706
00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:11.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I the rule. I mean, if you want

707
00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:15.920
<v Speaker 2>to raise reasonable doubt, just generally, you've got you've got

708
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:19.199
<v Speaker 2>to produce this alternative suspect. You got to say, oh,

709
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.440
<v Speaker 2>there's this guy. Okay, that's great man, you know, like

710
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:27.199
<v Speaker 2>I it's who is this guy? You know? That doesn't

711
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:32.559
<v Speaker 2>rise to the level of it doesn't rise a standard

712
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:39.400
<v Speaker 2>of reasonable doubt. And also I basically what they're saying

713
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:43.960
<v Speaker 2>is that there was some presumably like black hobo who

714
00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:49.199
<v Speaker 2>was hanging out in the woods. He somehow could control

715
00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:54.280
<v Speaker 2>three eight year old kids, assault them, murder all three

716
00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:59.519
<v Speaker 2>of them, all by himself, you know, without any of

717
00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:06.320
<v Speaker 2>them run and uh then he staggers presumably on the

718
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:12.199
<v Speaker 2>woods through the blue beacon car wash is walking down

719
00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:15.239
<v Speaker 2>the highway all bloody and messed up. Then he just

720
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:17.519
<v Speaker 2>like ends up in this fast food restaurant bathroom. Like

721
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:20.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't find incredible anyway. It's also they've

722
00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.639
<v Speaker 2>tried to make a big deal about the fact that,

723
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:28.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think UH DNA and five evidence is

724
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:31.800
<v Speaker 2>dubious in my opinion, not because the science if identifying

725
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:34.840
<v Speaker 2>it as dubious. It's because people put too much it's

726
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:38.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not binary in terms of what it indicates. The

727
00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:42.039
<v Speaker 2>people put too much weight on it. But one of

728
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:45.840
<v Speaker 2>the uh, one of the kids shoelaces that they were

729
00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:50.000
<v Speaker 2>bound with their shoelaces, like interstitially bound on the shoelaces

730
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:55.239
<v Speaker 2>was a hair like one of the kids stepfather's friends,

731
00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:58.039
<v Speaker 2>because which obviously got picked up at the kid's house

732
00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:03.000
<v Speaker 2>where this man was regularly. And you know, there's people

733
00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:08.559
<v Speaker 2>who advocate for the in a sense of these defendants claiming,

734
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:12.119
<v Speaker 2>oh that that that proves that this random guy, David

735
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Jacobi did it because there's a hair consistent with his

736
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:23.920
<v Speaker 2>uh DNA profile that you know was at the scene.

737
00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:27.159
<v Speaker 2>So I mean, I think that that's nonsense. And uh

738
00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:35.360
<v Speaker 2>there clearly had to be multiple offenders because you can't.

739
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:37.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean that that's that's like trying to hurd cast.

740
00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:42.679
<v Speaker 2>You can't. Like, one man wouldn't be able to control uh,

741
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:47.480
<v Speaker 2>three eight year old boys. He'd be able to accost

742
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:50.480
<v Speaker 2>one of them. And then I mean, even even if

743
00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:52.719
<v Speaker 2>the guy was as fast as like an NFL wide receiver,

744
00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:54.559
<v Speaker 2>he's not gonna be able to murder one kid, grab

745
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:56.599
<v Speaker 2>the next one, murder him, and grab the next one

746
00:58:56.639 --> 00:59:00.320
<v Speaker 2>without them running, you know. And and also they they

747
00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:02.599
<v Speaker 2>took their time with these kids, which is one of

748
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the really horrible things about it. This wasn't a quick thing.

749
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:09.519
<v Speaker 2>They tortured these kids, you know.

750
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.079
<v Speaker 4>See, Thomas, I think we're coming up on time. There's

751
00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:17.920
<v Speaker 4>a couple other aspects, uh, that I want to get into.

752
00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:18.519
<v Speaker 2>Right.

753
00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:22.159
<v Speaker 4>You have this this female witness who plays sort of

754
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:25.519
<v Speaker 4>an interesting role in the trial, as well as this

755
00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:33.440
<v Speaker 4>uh shall I say somewhat sinister character, Richard offsh Yeah, right, Uh,

756
00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:35.960
<v Speaker 4>you know, the the so called expert on h you know,

757
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:41.320
<v Speaker 4>coerced confessions. Interestingly enough, there were actually two trials, if

758
00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.599
<v Speaker 4>I'm not mistaken, right, Uh, they sort of split them

759
00:59:44.679 --> 00:59:48.280
<v Speaker 4>up and you know, limited which confessions could be used

760
00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:51.239
<v Speaker 4>in which trial. Uh do you want to speak to

761
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:53.679
<v Speaker 4>that just a little bit before we wrap and obviously

762
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:55.800
<v Speaker 4>we'll be around for another one.

763
00:59:55.880 --> 01:00:01.519
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, no, the it's a Miskill, he's uh Baldwin

764
01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:04.559
<v Speaker 2>and Echoles there they were tried together. Miss Kelly was

765
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:11.960
<v Speaker 2>tried separately, and uh that was tactical. But also they

766
01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:15.880
<v Speaker 2>you know the confrontation clause if they if miss Kelly

767
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:18.360
<v Speaker 2>refused to take the stand, they wouldn't have been able

768
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:23.159
<v Speaker 2>to introduce his his his uh confession against Eckles and

769
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:28.239
<v Speaker 2>Baldwin because he just didn't he'd invoke his Fifth Amendment

770
01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:31.039
<v Speaker 2>rights and refused to testify. And so then okay, well

771
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:34.320
<v Speaker 2>now you're using statements against that gals in Baldwin that

772
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:37.559
<v Speaker 2>they can't challenge the declarant on and as I'm constitutional.

773
01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:45.280
<v Speaker 2>And also it was uh even that notwithstanding they they

774
01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:47.920
<v Speaker 2>had miss Kelly dead the rights, despite what the Berlin

775
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Jersonofski documentary says, had they joined his trial to Echals

776
01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:57.159
<v Speaker 2>in Baldwin, any defense counsel with as Salt would uh

777
01:00:58.119 --> 01:01:00.239
<v Speaker 2>would have said, hey, he was there, but it's these

778
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:03.519
<v Speaker 2>two scumbags who did it, and they made very well

779
01:01:03.559 --> 01:01:05.760
<v Speaker 2>have gotten his charge is knocked down. If not a

780
01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:09.639
<v Speaker 2>full on a quill, Okay, like, hey, my client's slow witted,

781
01:01:09.679 --> 01:01:12.400
<v Speaker 2>and yeah he you know, he's he's not a good

782
01:01:12.519 --> 01:01:14.880
<v Speaker 2>man and he might maybe he's a bully, but he's

783
01:01:14.920 --> 01:01:17.159
<v Speaker 2>no child molester and he's no killer. And he was

784
01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:19.960
<v Speaker 2>led astray by these two sadists and you know, blah

785
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:22.599
<v Speaker 2>blah blah. You know, I don't see acquittal coming out

786
01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:25.440
<v Speaker 2>of the app but I definitely see you know, I

787
01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:27.880
<v Speaker 2>definitely see mitigation, you know.

788
01:01:29.679 --> 01:01:29.719
<v Speaker 3>It.

789
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Uh. And also I mean, like I said, they Dan Stidham,

790
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:40.880
<v Speaker 2>who uh was Meskill's defense counsel, he did a very

791
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:43.400
<v Speaker 2>good job, you know. Uh, I don't agree with but

792
01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:46.039
<v Speaker 2>sori of the case obviously, but you know he was

793
01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:50.239
<v Speaker 2>he was adequately represented. Baldwin had some I don't know

794
01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:52.519
<v Speaker 2>where he got the money for this because his family

795
01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:56.320
<v Speaker 2>was poor. Maybe the guy did it pro se or

796
01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:01.159
<v Speaker 2>pro bono. I mean, but uh, Baldwin had a real

797
01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:04.000
<v Speaker 2>he had he had he had a real lawyer, you know,

798
01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:07.760
<v Speaker 2>he had private council. It was some local big shot

799
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:10.880
<v Speaker 2>who you know, had had a lot of trial work

800
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:15.920
<v Speaker 2>to his name. Ecoles had an appointed attorney, but he

801
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:18.840
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a PD if memory serves, and I'll double check

802
01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:22.119
<v Speaker 2>the record for this before he reconvene the way they

803
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:24.800
<v Speaker 2>he was a private attorney was appointed by the court.

804
01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:28.559
<v Speaker 2>So but I mean again, so these guys weren't they

805
01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:31.440
<v Speaker 2>weren't being set up for a fall by not being

806
01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:33.639
<v Speaker 2>afforded adequate talents that wouldn't getting it.

807
01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:38.079
<v Speaker 4>Well, sure thing. We will continue the discussion in a

808
01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:40.159
<v Speaker 4>week or so. Thank you so much, Thomas. This was

809
01:02:40.199 --> 01:02:43.079
<v Speaker 4>a ton of fun, obviously, I, like many other people,

810
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:48.440
<v Speaker 4>am eagerly awaiting your new manuscript. I know it's getting close.

811
01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:51.920
<v Speaker 4>People can find you on your website on substack.

812
01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

813
01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:55.079
<v Speaker 4>You know everything will be linked down in the description.

814
01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:59.320
<v Speaker 4>As far as my stuff, Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

815
01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:01.559
<v Speaker 4>you want to artis, you can throw me a few

816
01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:04.159
<v Speaker 4>bucks a month. Get the episodes early in ad free

817
01:03:04.519 --> 01:03:08.400
<v Speaker 4>on Patreon, Substack or gum Road. I know the ads

818
01:03:08.440 --> 01:03:10.840
<v Speaker 4>are annoying on the free version, so here's a way

819
01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:12.840
<v Speaker 4>to get rid of them. It's really not a bad deal.

820
01:03:13.199 --> 01:03:17.159
<v Speaker 4>I'd highly recommend it. Or our sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness Coaching.

821
01:03:17.920 --> 01:03:20.280
<v Speaker 4>Axios is doing real well. You may see their ads

822
01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:23.039
<v Speaker 4>on a few other of your favorite podcasts coming up soon,

823
01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:25.559
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824
01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:29.159
<v Speaker 4>JD's website and yeah again, Thomas, thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, thank you buddy, everyone to know them.

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<v Speaker 4>Keep your head up. I can't last forever. Good night,