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at weekly. Enjoyed this on more for only four ninety

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Speaker 4: Meaning the live man like this man letting butterfly, flapping.

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Speaker 2: His wing, dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna

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cause a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man,

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nobody's seen, nobody you know, need no Man. They pluck

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you a little story and you got that way. Man.

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Don't like to dag on the panel. Man, Man don't matter. Man.

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Speaker 4: All right. Finally, uh, after many many requests, Thomas and

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I are returning to our series on the Occult. I

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think it was good to take a little break. This

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stuff does obviously get depressing, but we weren't done yet.

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So you can stop sending me emails, you can stop

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leaving comments. We're continuing the series, so Thomas, I'll kick

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it back to you.

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Speaker 2: Man. Yeah, thanks for hosting me. You can't talk about

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the phenomena of late twentieth century occultism in America and

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that whole liminal tendency without dealing with the case of

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the West Memphis three. And for those who don't know,

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I assume most people do. They've at least heard of it.

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This came into the public mind because in nineteen ninety

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six there was this HBO documentary that was very heavily promoted.

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It was called Paradise Lost the child Murders at robin

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Hood Hills. And back then HBO had a reputation of

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pretty serious documentary filmmaking. There was a series called America Undercover.

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They produced that brand are the things that produced that

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movie about Irish Mickey Ward's brothers crack addiction called High

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on Crack Street. They made a whole movie about Mickey

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Ward and his brother and they that documentary is a

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plot device on the movie. And you know it it was.

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It attracted pretty serious filmmakers. And also there's a lot

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of money behind promoting these projects. So what the deal

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was with this documentary film? These three little boys, these

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three eight year old boys, they were savagely murdered in

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this interstate town in rural Arkansas called Marion. Where the

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boys were found was in this forest preserve behind a

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truck stop called robin Hood Hills that was in West Memphis. Technically, Okay,

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so that's why the defendants were called the West Memphis three.

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This was on May fifth, nineteen ninety three, and nobody

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really heard about it other than locally. But this film

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dropped in nineteen ninety six. And the guys who were

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behind this film, there's a guy named Joe Berlinger and

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Bruce Sinowski, and they were both kind of these wannabes.

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They came up through the There was kind of an

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American version of the cinema veritaean movement. If you've ever

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seen Gimme Shelter, this's the documentary on the on the Stones,

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you know, the ultimat Speedway concert that was, you know,

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the end of the sixties, as people have kind of

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branded it. That was kind of the prime example of it.

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And Berlinger and Sinofsky they'd been proteges of the guy

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who made that film. Okay, so Sinofsky he was always

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trying to establish himself as as this kind of serious documentarian,

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but by the nineties that wasn't really in style. People

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weren't really thirsty for that kind of filmmaking. And uh,

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Sinofsky in his own right. What he was most known

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for later that idiotic Metallica documentary where they're all crying

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like bitches and going to therapy and stuff. He worked

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on that. He was always kind of a wanna be

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rock and roll guy. Okay, So Paradise Lost it was

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really kind of shocking because the opening scene of it,

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the camera pans over Robinood Hills and then it's almost

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like trying for the will or something. It descends the

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ground level. Then it costs the actual footage of the

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dead bodies, you know, so it's it's like jarring, and

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the film kind of presented this narrative of this town

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being an evil town and there being something that conspired,

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you know, within the within the culture to make this happen.

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It didn't declare that these that the defendants were innocent,

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but like all all documentary films about true crime, it

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always tries to raise a at least the suggestion a

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reasonable doubt, otherwise there's no narrative to it. But ultimately

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these three teenagers were arrested for the crime. Damian Eccles,

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Jesse mss Kelly Junior, and Jason Baldwin. And these three

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guys all kind of fit a rural stereotype. Jesse miss

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Kelly was this redneck with a mohawk, who was known

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to his dad was next con. He was into hot

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rods and getting drunk and growing. Jason Baldwin was this

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unassuming guy, and this becomes relevant, the fact that he's

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so unassuming, but he he kind of seemed like a

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soft spoken every man kid with a mullet, you know,

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in a soft Southern drawl. But Damien Eccles, he was

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a fella my acolyte with a self identified Satanist and

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he was infamous in this town for being involved in

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occult activities. So the documentary it kind of came to

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focus on Damien Echo just because he was so strange

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and like a lot of poor Southerners, both white guys

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and black guys, he had that kind of sensibility that

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for some reason fascinates a lot of bougie types. So

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he kind of became the focus of this movie. Okay,

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and it's the film is full of shots of these

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Southern people kind of acting in stereotypical ways. There's a

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lot of shots of them at church where there's a

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fire and brimstone pastor. You know. It kind of made

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the people in this town seem as culturally out of

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step and alien, as possible, and Berlinger then it kind

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of become his m O. What put him on the

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map as a documentary filmmaker was this movie called Brothers

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Keeper that came out in nineteen ninety. That was this

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gruesome case that took place in Utica, New York, which

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is an upstate New York and these elderly brothers who

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lived on this old estate that was worth a lot

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of money, but they were these kinds of hermit hoarders.

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One brother killed the other one, and as was alleged

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by the state, it wasn't clear if he died in

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natural cause, as if he was strangled. But there was

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all these lured suggestions about homosexuality, incest, all kinds of

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gruesome stuff, and this got whatever was going sort of

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a tabloid story. It got all this praise from these

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sort of artsy people in Hollywood types. So Berlinger really

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got the bug for kind of trying to impress that

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that whole community.

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Speaker 4: You know well, and Thomas, you spoke earlier about the narrative,

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you know, within the documentary, But the way that this

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story is cast in popular culture is very much in

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the same language as the Satanic Panic. It's basically the

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superstitious country pumpkins, you know, trying to you know, frame

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these innocent teenagers. And I think that that's a big

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part of the reason that this story and several of

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the figures into it remained relevant through the George Bush

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years because it became a sort of piece of that

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anti fundamentalist narrative during the reaction to Bush the lesser.

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But I'll kick it back to you, no.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent, and that's exactly what Echos and the

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documentary really leaned into that, saying, you know, these people

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in this town just hate my ass and they think

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I worshiped Satan because they don't understand my religion. And

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to be clear, this was nineteen ninety three, so even

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if you accept the Satanic panic myth, that was all

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over by then. What people were worried about in early

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nineties was race, war stuff, organized gangs, which was a

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real thing. The you know recession, particularly in places like

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Mary in Arkansas, a lot of people are out of work.

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And I made this point of people too, this came

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up speaking of the sort of fundamentalist Christian boogeyman. You're

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too young to remember this, but when McCain was running

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against Obama, and he took on that silly woman as

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his running mate, Sarah Palin. I remember people talking about

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Palin and Alaska like these were a bunch of holy

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roller hicks. I'm like, man, Alaska's first. It's like seventy

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percent mail. It's full of rough and tumble military guys, uh, fishermen.

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It's a it's a very it's a very unsavory culture.

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A lot of prostitution, a lot of drugs, casual violence.

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People don't really understand what rural America's about. It's not

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it's not a bunch of it's it's not a bunch

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of Mormons sitting around hiding people for having a beer.

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It's very it's very rough and.

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Speaker 4: Oh exactly, and again not to keep interrupting you here, no,

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but that is very much. It's sort of this like

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view of everywhere that isn't you know Brooklyn or California

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as just the kind of like narrowly constituted South, which

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is basically this like you know, insane vision of like

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you know what Selma must have been like. And to

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your point, like Alaska is, I mean, sure, you know

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they they vote read, but very very different culturally, very

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different people it is not small town Southern America. But

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back to you, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And also Gary mess who wrote a really he

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was a journalist for I think the I think the

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Little Rock Gizette or whatever the Little Rock main legacy

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print brand was. He wrote a lot of serious stuff

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on this case, very critical of the documentary. But he

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was when this was going on. I think he was

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in his late twenties, and he's like, look this narrative

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that Echos particularly was singled out for being a for

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being into Metallica and wearing black. He's like, okay, Metallica

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was the number one band in America in nineteen ninety three,

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and if you've ever been to the rural South, everybody

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likes heavy metal. Everybody likes black T shirts. I miss

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I think actually got he captured a shot. One of

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the cops who rested Echos was he was like this, Uh,

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he was some special Task Force guy wearing a Mega

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Death shirt. So this idea like, oh, in the South

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and the nineties, everyone hates heavy metal when rock and

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roll and they're afraid of you know, metallic. It's it's

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like these people watched, uh, that old Kevin Bacon movie

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where you're not allowed to dance and decided footloose or whatever.

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It's like very gay and very silly, but like.

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Speaker 4: It know that was actually funny story that was actually filmed.

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Uh not too far away from me. I've actually been there.

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Interesting that looks like yeah because yeah.

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Speaker 2: No that you know, so this kind of crazy narrative

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developed around it and then you know once uh and

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to be originally, like I said, the original film, most

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of that was coming from what Eccholes himself was saying

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and Beryling you're obviously was trying to treat his subject

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matter like a geek pit and say, look at these

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crazy redneck hull abilities. But it wasn't really until after

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it was released that beryln Dur and Sinofsky would fall

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on into claiming these three guys were framed by the

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bigoted South and the reason that happened. See I watched

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that when it aired, because again this was summer nineteen

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ninety six and that was a huge boxing fan. And

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that's right after HBO's Boxing After Dark had aired. This

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was their they'd have championship boxing, usually welterweight and middleweight

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and lightweight, but it was on at ten thirty pm

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Central Time and they started promoting. They started running an

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ad for this movie during Boxing after Dark, and they

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presented it as, yeah, this was the Satanic Murderer, and

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I'm like, oh, wow, that's nuts. So I watched it

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and I'm like, Okay, that wasn't bad, but it's obvious

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those guys are guilty. And pretty much everybody I knew

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was like, yeah, that that was an interesting documentary. Really

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nothing to see there. But then suddenly Hollywood said, this

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is a great movie about these people being framed and

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this is an outrage. And first of all, I was like,

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that's bizarre that Johnny Depp and Peter Jackson and the

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Dixie Chicks and Henry Rollins He's always an idiot, but uh,

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they really circled the wagons around this. And I remember

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at the time even other people in media saying, well,

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what did you see about this movie that I didn't see?

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Like why why do you think that? But Berylinger, who

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was always a starfucker to begin with, he goes full

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odd like, yeah, you're right, that's why I made this movie.

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So suddenly he becomes, you know, mister Innocence Project for

237
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,320
the West Memphis three. When he realizes that he got

238
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,679
the attention of Hollywood, which he was always trying to

239
00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,320
do period. So he proceeded to make this crazy easy

240
00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:04,240
sequel that now no one talks about anymore, that was

241
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,440
essentially a hit piece on one of the victim's stepfathers,

242
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,960
which uh it made no sense whatsoever, you know, and

243
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,599
that he couldn't capture the same fire in a bottle

244
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:24,680
with that one. But uh, you know, this became this

245
00:17:24,799 --> 00:17:31,400
became this huge uh cause celebrate and one of the uh,

246
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,000
one of the reasons I'm disgusted by John Douglas is because,

247
00:17:35,079 --> 00:17:37,839
you know, the the the mind Hunter guy. I mean,

248
00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:41,960
he's a total fraud criminal profiling is nonsense, total pseudoscience.

249
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,160
When the when when Damian Eckles got all this Hollywood

250
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,440
money and uh in g O money to fight his

251
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:57,160
case post conviction, you know, uh Douglas is available to

252
00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,680
hives bidder, you know, to claim that based on his

253
00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:04,519
mind Hunter probably profiling expertise, he can divinate if people

254
00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:08,440
are guilty or not. So he came out he joined

255
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,920
this this uh bandwagon too. I mean he does that

256
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,759
all the time. He's he got paid by jeoh Many

257
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,720
Ramsey's mom, who obviously murdered her and uh the lead

258
00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:20,920
detective on the case wrote a whole book about it,

259
00:18:21,079 --> 00:18:24,359
which I advise anybody read if they're taken in by

260
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,119
this delusion that there's some mystery behind what happened to

261
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,039
that little girl. But her very wealthy parents hired John

262
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,079
Douglas to basically either pr man. I mean, he's he's

263
00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:39,400
a scumbig, but uh, you know he uh he's he's

264
00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:43,880
very much got clout with the kinds of rubs or

265
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,039
in the true crime and things, so that further sort

266
00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:53,519
of I'm a de momentum behind this. But what it uh,

267
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,559
what when it comes down to, was that what was

268
00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:02,359
presented in this film doesn't reflect the evident record at all. Okay,

269
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,519
the claim is that Damian Nichols was just this cool

270
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,359
kid who was into heavy metal music. He got singled

271
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:16,720
out by fundamentalist biggots who hated him. He having to

272
00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:19,160
be friends with this guy Jason Baldwin who just got

273
00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:22,480
roped in for being friends with him and Jesse miss

274
00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:26,759
Kelly was mentally retarded and the police tortured him for

275
00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:29,039
two days and an interrogation, and then he signed a

276
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:35,359
false confession. That's not what happened, and we'll get into

277
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,559
this as we go on. But the police didn't even

278
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,279
intend to indict Jesse miss Kelly because they had no

279
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,480
idea he was involved. He confessed repeatedly, then he confessed

280
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,480
to his lawyer, then he confessed to his cellmate, then

281
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,200
he confessed after he was convicted and sitting in prison

282
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,359
serving his fifty year bit that this kid can't stop confessing,

283
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,079
you know, and again he he's not mentally retarded, he's stupid.

284
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:11,160
But even by the metric of the Supreme Court, you know,

285
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,839
they arbitrarily said, if your IQ is under seventy, you

286
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,079
can't you can't be executed because she likes the ability

287
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,000
to You're too stupid basically to formuly specific intent, I

288
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:23,559
think is the reasoning. But I mean, even by that

289
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,039
metric or the colloaquial metric, he's not mentally retarded. But

290
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:41,640
the way the way this basically shook out was obviously

291
00:20:43,759 --> 00:20:48,880
triple homicide a three eight year olds that that them

292
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,839
that's shocking. But also I mean that's that that's a

293
00:20:53,960 --> 00:21:03,839
very strange crime, Okay, And to be clear, I mean

294
00:21:04,039 --> 00:21:06,920
this is a this is a disgusting case. So if

295
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,640
that kind of thing upsets you, you might want to

296
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,440
skip forward or two out. But one of the boys

297
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:20,119
bled to death because he was castrated. The other two

298
00:21:20,279 --> 00:21:26,240
were severely beaten. Then they were immersed in this irrigation

299
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:33,920
ditch and drowned. They know that the one boy bled

300
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,359
out because he didn't have water on his lungs. He

301
00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:39,920
was and this becomes important to what was alleged in

302
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:46,119
the post conviction appeals. Okay, being that they were immersed

303
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,559
in water, that eliminated quite a bit of evidence, particularly

304
00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:59,720
biological evidence. But one of the boys, there was trace

305
00:21:59,799 --> 00:22:04,519
him us a seminal fluid on his genes, and obviously

306
00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:08,599
an eight year old is not mature enough to ejaculate,

307
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:16,880
so it's clear that there was some sort of I mean,

308
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,279
based on these circumstances, it's clear that that there was

309
00:22:20,319 --> 00:22:23,839
there was a sexual aspect to this too. Okay, they

310
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:29,640
couldn't type the DNA of the seminal fluid because it

311
00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:39,039
wasn't an adequate leave luminous sample. But you know the

312
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,480
reason why Eccles became the folks of this investigation was

313
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,599
for a few reasons. The police kept on hearing that

314
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,160
Eccholes had confessed to this to various people when he

315
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,519
was drunk not in a remorseful way, but in an

316
00:22:55,559 --> 00:23:02,720
offhand way or because he was bragging. Now Echles wasn't

317
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:05,720
arrested for until months later. Okay, so this wasn't some

318
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,960
rush to judgment, and he wasn't even arrested when the

319
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:17,519
police first received sworn statements from people claiming that he'd

320
00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:23,720
made these confessions in their presence. But you know, proble

321
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:26,640
cause to arrest is not probable cause to convict, and

322
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,680
it's it has nothing to do with the manifest weight

323
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,319
of evidence. It's merely probable cause to arrest. So the

324
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:41,559
character is somebody and their behavior patterns overall is relevant.

325
00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:48,599
And looking into ecchos background because desplayer when Eckles claimed

326
00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:51,079
he wasn't terrorized by the police throughout his life and

327
00:23:51,079 --> 00:23:53,599
they weren't keeping a dossier on him. Nobody even really

328
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,559
knew who he was other than his in his local

329
00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,480
you know people, his own age and stuff. But he

330
00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:02,720
had a history of violence. He'd been in and out

331
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:10,519
of psychiatric hospitals, most recently in Little Rock at Charter

332
00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:16,599
Hospital in June nineteen ninety two. He had a history

333
00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:20,720
of setting fires. He got in trouble for chasing another

334
00:24:20,799 --> 00:24:25,759
kid with an axe He was kicked out of school

335
00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:30,200
for a time for trying to gouge a kid's eye out.

336
00:24:31,799 --> 00:24:42,279
He was repeatedly suspended for fighting. He Jason Baldwin's cousin,

337
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:55,160
was interviewed by a homicide detective named Brent Ridge. This

338
00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:01,880
witness attested to the fact that he and Eccles and

339
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,200
Jason Baldwin had been walking down the main road outside

340
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,559
of the trailer park they lived in, the Leafshore Trailer Park.

341
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,839
Echles came upon a dog that was in some way

342
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,119
sick or injured and uh that Goles calmly grabbed a

343
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,680
brick and began banshing the dogs head in until it died.

344
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:40,880
You know this, Uh, a pattern emerges of sadism and

345
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:49,799
violent tendencies outside of the what's normal for you know,

346
00:25:49,839 --> 00:25:52,000
your accounting for the kind of anti social tendencies a

347
00:25:52,079 --> 00:26:00,759
teenager boys. You know. But what was most h what

348
00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:06,519
got the police's attention, particularly Brent Ridge and his immediate superior,

349
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:14,200
Gary Gotschell Lewis, the lead investigator. Eckles had gotten in

350
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:20,720
trouble for having relations with an underage girlfriend named Deanna

351
00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:28,400
Holcombe when Eccles was seventeen or eighteen and she was

352
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:35,720
fourteen or fifteen, and he caught charges for statutory rape

353
00:26:35,759 --> 00:26:44,799
or whatever the equivalent is in that hotel, and Echoles

354
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:52,079
had apparently told Deanna Holcombe. She attested to this to

355
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:57,160
the juvenile officer in charge of the case. Jerry Driver

356
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:04,519
told her that he wanted to get her pregnant and

357
00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:07,279
he wanted her to deliver bring the child to term,

358
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,839
and he wanted them to sacrifice the child to some

359
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,200
deity because he said that, you know, if you if

360
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:24,200
you can divinate the correct deity or supernatural intelligence and

361
00:27:24,319 --> 00:27:28,839
sacrifice to them, you can absorb that victim's power. And

362
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,039
he said that according to Thelema. Whether this is an

363
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:35,680
accurate reading of Theelema or not, I don't know. He said,

364
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,160
according to Thelema, you know, the crowleag system, an infant

365
00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:44,279
or a little boy, particularly a male child, they've got

366
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,839
the most power that could be taken by somebody who

367
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:57,079
sacrifices them incident to the correct ritual, you know. And

368
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,599
this didn't lead the more enhanced charges against Echos, but

369
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:11,880
it did lead to the court ordering a psychiatric evaluation.

370
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:24,440
And now, mind you, I don't have any great faith

371
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,440
in the medical profession on its own terms. But I

372
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:35,480
also don't if discount diagnosedes rendered by qualified experts without

373
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:45,799
cause to do so. This evaluation ordered by the court

374
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:54,599
from nineteen ninety two suggested that, according to the diagnostic

375
00:28:54,599 --> 00:29:02,799
criteria then utilized by the APA, Echoals had sociopathic tendencies

376
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:17,680
and he was prone to gradiose and delusional thinking. He

377
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:26,920
apparently disclosed that he drank the blood of other people

378
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:36,319
because he said that you can obtain power by doing

379
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:41,720
so in small ways, because life force is contained in

380
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:48,880
certain bodily fluids, particularly blood, and he claimed that he

381
00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:56,240
learned about this owing to his unusual religious beliefs. Interestingly,

382
00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:58,519
he never referred himself as a Satanist. When he was

383
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:05,000
being availed to these sorts of diagnostic protocols, he'd he'd

384
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:08,279
simply say that, you know, he was a male witch,

385
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,240
or he was a pagan, or he was, you know,

386
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:20,519
an accolyte of Crowley. But that's that's where the police

387
00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:25,759
got this idea of him being an occultist. He said

388
00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:29,880
he was, and we'll get into this and some of

389
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:37,559
this witness testimony. People said multiple witnesses, Miss Kelly Echoes

390
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,640
himself declared himself to be an occultist Miss Kelly himself

391
00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:45,240
said Echos and a lot of people he knew were

392
00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:53,519
into Satanic worship. Another witness named LG. Hollingsworth, who was

393
00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:01,240
dead by the time of the proceedings, I believe, he

394
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,279
said that in Marion it was well known that there

395
00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:10,839
was an occult subculture. So I mean, this is what

396
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:17,279
the police were hearing from all these people who were

397
00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:21,440
in the prime suspect's orbit, and this is what their

398
00:31:21,559 --> 00:31:27,240
prime suspect was had told the juvenile officer presiding over

399
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:30,079
his case for statutory rape. And this is what he

400
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,519
was telling the psychiatrists who'd interview him when he was

401
00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:41,400
periodically ending up in psychiatric facilities for violent conduct. People

402
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,839
weren't looking at Damon Eccols and saying, oh, he has

403
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,440
a metallic assured I think he worships the devil, you know.

404
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:54,039
And to be clear, and I mean, I I'm not

405
00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:56,480
one of these people who looks down on the rural

406
00:31:56,599 --> 00:32:03,000
South or something like quite the contrary, but there is

407
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:08,039
a weird subculture and a lot of these rural places,

408
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:11,319
and particularly places that are kind of sustained by the interstate,

409
00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:14,920
like Marion, you get you get a lot of carnival

410
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,960
workers you get a lot of guys who spend most

411
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,720
of their life on the road. You You've got you know,

412
00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:27,000
very very people with very very deep roots in this

413
00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:34,079
country who still abide folk ways from the old country.

414
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,440
There's something pagan uh about it. A lot of these

415
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:45,400
people's belief structures, you know, in a way that you

416
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,000
don't really find among white people up North, Okay, even

417
00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:53,440
poorer ones. That's not some kind of prejudice or some

418
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,559
or some sort of stereotype about you know, stupid primitive

419
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:05,359
hillbillies or something. I mean that that's a fact, you know.

420
00:33:05,519 --> 00:33:10,960
So I tend to I tend to believe what some

421
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:14,440
of these people were saying. This wasn't just them being

422
00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:25,160
paranoid or or developing paranoiac ideas or something. You know.

423
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:32,079
It uh in two thousand and one, and we're jumping

424
00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:36,000
ahead a little bit, but it's material to the subject

425
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,680
matter or the point that we're at in the subject matter.

426
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:50,480
At Doctor George W. Woods, a Berkeley, California psychiatrist, he

427
00:33:54,359 --> 00:34:02,319
evaluated echoes incident to one of his post conviction appeals.

428
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:06,880
And to be clear, a post conviction appeal, you're arguing

429
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,840
it on, I won't over the subs at death with

430
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,760
all the nuances. Once your direct appeals are exhausted, a

431
00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:20,840
post conviction appeal it's a collateral attack on your conviction,

432
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:25,800
either premised on actual innocence or subset of violation of

433
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,960
constitutional rights. So it's always timely, okay, and you can

434
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:40,119
file as many of them as you want. So it's

435
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:46,320
not clear to me who of echals attorneys commission woulds

436
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,880
to analyze echals record or if he just did this

437
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:59,639
on his own accord, But they're no. His evaluation of

438
00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:02,039
their quest by the Eccles defense team, all right, strike that,

439
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:09,079
I'm sorry, and his evaluation was promised on the claim

440
00:35:09,119 --> 00:35:12,599
was gonna. What eccles post conviction team was trying to

441
00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:15,480
allege was that he'd been incompetent to stand trial. Okay,

442
00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:24,920
So this was several years after his conviction, and what

443
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:31,159
was the termine That Eccles was periodically actively delusional owing

444
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:37,800
to a tendency towards manic episodes, and that one of

445
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:50,480
that throws of psychotic euphoria Eccles. Eccles believed that deities

446
00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:56,039
or supernatural forces were transforming him into a superior entity

447
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:03,199
or conferring power upon him, and direct his activity in

448
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:09,320
criminal capacities would claim was that or his conclusion was

449
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,960
that Echos wasn't incompetent as a matter of law, but

450
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:24,239
that he was delusional and periodically psychotic. The Minnesota Multiphasic

451
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:32,199
Personality Inventory, that's what the court generally relies upon in

452
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:40,960
terms of psychiatric and mental health experts. Echles was administered

453
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,360
the MMPI on June eighth, nineteen ninety two, September second,

454
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:52,639
nineteen ninety two, in February of nineteen ninety four. Each

455
00:36:52,679 --> 00:37:07,760
of these test results indicated strong profiles of mania, delusional psychosis, depression,

456
00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:21,760
and periodic psychotic periodic or intermittent psychotic thinking, including paranoid ideation, delusions,

457
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:45,960
and related emotional disturbances. Now, once again, and obviously, I

458
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:53,000
mean this is part of the public record because these

459
00:37:53,039 --> 00:38:00,000
reports and this testimony was udded into evidence. These conclusions

460
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:08,760
were based on symptoms and belief structures and ideas that

461
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:14,639
that that Egos conveyed to the to the psychiatrists or

462
00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:22,000
the diagnosticians were presiding over these tests. The administrators of

463
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,920
these tests didn't confabulate speculative things about Damien Eckles. He's

464
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,760
the one who's reporting belief in deities. He's the one

465
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,239
who's reporting ideas about drinking human blood. He's the one

466
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:39,559
who's reporting belief in supernatural phenomena that he could access

467
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:44,599
owing to some sort of competence and in divinating these

468
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:50,800
these these things or these alien intelligences, you know, and

469
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,599
something else that's relevant to me. I mean, that's relevant

470
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:04,880
in my opinion. I although it's not just positive anything

471
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,920
in of itself. You know, Eccles or at his defense

472
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:16,840
team both that trial and post conviction, they claimed, Okay,

473
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,960
so Eckles is supposed to the subject of this witch

474
00:39:19,039 --> 00:39:23,360
hunt in this small town and this is prejudiced against him. Well,

475
00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:27,840
Eckles had this bizarre familial arrangement. I guess his mom

476
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,280
was fifteen and his dad was seventeen when they got married.

477
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,800
And and they got married because she was pregnant. I'm

478
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,239
not saying anything wrong with young people getting married and

479
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,199
in event of pregnancy or not, but you know, they

480
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,400
it was a shotgun marriage. I guess eckles birth father

481
00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:49,159
was for all practical purposes it literate and had all

482
00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:55,320
kinds of mental problems. So they got his name was

483
00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,719
Joe Hutchinson, and they got divorced early on, So Eccles

484
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,840
was raised by this much older man, whose mom subsequently

485
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:11,880
married name of Eccles. Then, when Eccles was a young teenager,

486
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,159
his birth father came back into his life and his mom,

487
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:19,719
who was estranged from this Eccles, they remarried his birth father.

488
00:40:20,639 --> 00:40:24,800
And eccles birth father was just a terran kind of

489
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:30,840
laborer who has lived a kind of unstable life, and

490
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,079
he moved he up and moved the family to Portland, Oregon,

491
00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:39,280
when Eccles was seventeen, sixteen seventeen in nineteen ninety two.

492
00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:43,880
So Eckles is living in Portland and he's doing everything

493
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,519
he can to get back to Marion, and he's acting out.

494
00:40:47,639 --> 00:40:50,280
He's saying, I don't belong here. I belong in Marion

495
00:40:50,519 --> 00:40:54,880
with my friends. You know, It's like, Okay, Portland, even

496
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,639
back then, if you want to fly your freak flag

497
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,320
and do what Eccles did, that'd be about the best

498
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,599
place he could do it. Okay. So he's doing everything

499
00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:06,480
he can to was skate Portland that he hates staying

500
00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:09,039
there and he wants to go back to Marion, where

501
00:41:09,039 --> 00:41:12,599
supposedly he's being terrorized by these witch hunt rednecks. Really

502
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:18,480
does that make any sense? So he ends up hospitalized

503
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,880
in UH Portland because his father calls the police on him,

504
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,079
saying and the and the police report said that Eccholes

505
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:32,599
was threatening to kill the family, kill his father and

506
00:41:32,599 --> 00:41:35,760
and and and kill his whole family basically if they

507
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,599
didn't let him go back to Marion, and he was

508
00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:44,480
threatening suicide and everything else. So he ends up in

509
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:50,960
the psych word yet again in Portland. And this is

510
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,360
all he was on probation from the statutory rape charge

511
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,400
he caught, and his probation had been transferred to Oregon,

512
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,239
so there was this issue of him having the transfer

513
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,960
his paperwork back to this juvenile officer Jerry Driver, who

514
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,559
again Eckles claim, was supposedly out to get him and

515
00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:13,119
framing him. So he's he's going back into the out,

516
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,559
out of the out of the frying pan, into the fire,

517
00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:18,880
recording his own claims about what goes on in this town,

518
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,800
you know. But finally he ends up going back to

519
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:30,079
Marion and lives with his UH, lives with Eccles, his UH,

520
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:33,159
his stepfather who's now a strange from his mom. You know,

521
00:42:33,559 --> 00:42:37,639
we apparently didn't get along with basically his parents begged

522
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,519
this mister Eckles to take him in because they couldn't

523
00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:42,599
deal with him, and he was demanding to go back

524
00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:45,400
to Marion. You knows he did everything in his power.

525
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,840
You know that that a teenager tan by acting out

526
00:42:50,199 --> 00:42:55,320
cajoling threats to go back to the jurisdiction where he

527
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,079
claims he was framed and cident to this years on

528
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:03,159
pattern of terrorism and are asked, you know, and anecdotally,

529
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:11,199
that doesn't make any sense it, you know, And again

530
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:16,000
a lot of particularly in criminal cases, not just because

531
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,400
the evidentry standard is different. It's a totally different thing

532
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,599
than a similar matter. It's I mean that that's a

533
00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:29,639
discussion in its own right, but the totality of circumstances

534
00:43:31,199 --> 00:43:37,360
mayors particularly compared to what people do incident to the

535
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,320
circumstances they describe, and whether it complies with the sort

536
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,920
of picture of reality is they perceived it or if

537
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:56,199
it doesn't, And if it doesn't, that indicates deception, you know.

538
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:57,679
And if you're on trial for your life, why are

539
00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:01,760
you lying about things that If I want to trial

540
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,519
for my life, I'm either gonna say nothing at all, well,

541
00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:10,199
I'm gonna tell the truth because and to be clear,

542
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,320
Echoes was looking at the death kind of leap. You know,

543
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:22,239
So there's that which I don't know itself, doesn't prove anything,

544
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:34,280
but it's absolutely material and relevant, you know, to be clear.

545
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:52,000
The way, uh, y'all say that for next time. There's

546
00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:57,159
something I wanted to approach, but I I don't want to.

547
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:06,039
I don't want to go to that rabbit hole. Yeah, yeah,

548
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:09,159
So don't go ahead. I'm just trying to find my interjection.

549
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:15,039
Speaker 4: You spoke a little bit about the scene of the

550
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:19,840
crime and the way in which obviously the fact that

551
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,719
there was you know, these boys were found basically in

552
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:31,679
like a drainage ditch or a creek, several things. One effectively,

553
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,360
what happened is that the you know, the boys' parents

554
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,679
had sent them out to play together at around six

555
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,400
point thirty, right around eight, they began to get worried.

556
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,920
They walked all over the area of the woods they

557
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,960
were playing in, even to the point of basically apparently

558
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,800
forming you know, line to line arm and arm and

559
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,440
walking across the area, getting apparently quite close to the

560
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,599
eventual scene of the crime. When they found them the

561
00:45:56,639 --> 00:45:59,480
next day, I believe an officer discovered one of their

562
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,880
shoes in the ditch, which led to discovering the rest

563
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,960
of the bodies. There are a couple of interesting things. One,

564
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,159
the victims were found hogtied, basically bound kind of doubled

565
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:14,880
over backwards, right, their wrist bound to their ankles.

566
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 2: It was very weird because yeah, it was like right wrist,

567
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,039
right ankle, left wrist, left ankle. I've got a theory

568
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:21,480
on that being go ahead.

569
00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 4: Well, right, and as you've said, you know, a lot

570
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,760
of several pieces of their clothing were missing, some were

571
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,840
never recovered, but because of the fact that they water logged,

572
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:36,639
that made it somewhat difficult to determine. And the defense

573
00:46:36,679 --> 00:46:40,039
really leaned into this, right They tried to you know,

574
00:46:40,639 --> 00:46:43,960
dispute you know, if they drowned, if they were killed

575
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,280
with a knife, which was you know, one allegation. And also,

576
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,719
of course the more kind of the sinister injuries which

577
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,679
you mentioned earlier. They tried to you know, constitute that

578
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,159
as animals after the fact, right, kind of scavengers coming

579
00:46:58,199 --> 00:47:00,400
and you know, doing the worst of the damage. Already

580
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,960
deceased boys. So one, I'm curious to get your your

581
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,480
theory on the way that the you know, the victims

582
00:47:06,519 --> 00:47:09,000
were discovered. And also what do you make of you know,

583
00:47:09,039 --> 00:47:13,320
that defense. I mean a certain point. Look, if your

584
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,880
job is to you know, defend someone, you defend them

585
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,440
how you can, right, But at a certain point it

586
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,960
seems almost entirely irrelevant, you know, if this were you know,

587
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,000
after the fact of the murder anyway. But I'm curious

588
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:24,960
to get your thoughts, Thomas.

589
00:47:26,199 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. The reason they focused on that and claimed to

590
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:36,599
his animal predation is because the one of the a

591
00:47:36,679 --> 00:47:40,719
knife that was recovered from behind Baldwin's house. It was

592
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:47,280
a Rambo knife like serrated type knife. And uh, at trial,

593
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,440
the corner concluded that a knife like that with a

594
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,199
serrated blade was used to cast rate the victim. So

595
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,880
the defense said, this boy wasn't castrated at all, it

596
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,440
was animal predation. Well, he bled out, okay, unless these

597
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,239
were trained animals that murdered him. Okay, not to be

598
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,079
flippant about the murder of a child, but that's nonsense.

599
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:19,960
I I looked at a lot of the evidence that

600
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,239
there's this website, it's called Calvahan eight K it's every

601
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:31,599
evidentary exhibit from the trial. And I spent a lot

602
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:33,880
of time going over there, or I have like over

603
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:39,480
the years. And this ditch at robin Wood Hills was

604
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,800
sort of a there's this pipe bridge. It was literally

605
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,679
a giant pipe, but it had rails welded on at

606
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:52,199
some point and it went across this irrigation. It was

607
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:57,119
like this irrigation ditch sort slash small pond, okay, and

608
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:06,760
with a muddy bottom. I believe post mortem, they were

609
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,880
shoving or two of the boys. At least one of them.

610
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:15,280
They he was still respirating, but he was unconscious post

611
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,039
mortem in the case of two of them. The third

612
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,920
I'm pretty confident they thought was dead. I believe they

613
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,079
were trying to push them into the mud and limbs

614
00:49:24,119 --> 00:49:29,039
kept popping up, so they took the shoelaces and tied

615
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:33,719
a arm to or wrist to ankle, wrist to ankle,

616
00:49:35,079 --> 00:49:38,800
shoved them into the mud, and at least for a time,

617
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,159
the bodies remained submerged. That's a conclusion I came to.

618
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:50,559
You know, the Corners report or the police report describes

619
00:49:50,599 --> 00:49:52,920
them as being a hog tiede like not to be pedantic,

620
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,159
but being properly hog tied is you know, like in

621
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:56,519
a bundle.

622
00:49:58,519 --> 00:49:58,599
Speaker 3: It.

623
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: I think that's why that happened. And I'll get into

624
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:11,559
blow by blow and the interrogations and the defendants in

625
00:50:11,599 --> 00:50:19,159
the next episode. But basically, here's what I believe happened,

626
00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:21,400
and at based this not just done the trial record,

627
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,800
but what Gary Meaest described as well as miss Kelly's

628
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:28,920
many confessions. Despite what people think, Baldwin actually was the

629
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,519
ringleader of this because Baldwin's a straight up psycho. Okay,

630
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,000
Eccles is a sick fuck. He's a sexual deviand he's

631
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,639
a sadist. He isn't he's he isn't a cultist. Baldwin

632
00:50:40,639 --> 00:50:42,960
doesn't care about all that. Bald is just stunk cold.

633
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:49,039
He just likes to hurt people. Miss Kelly is just

634
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:52,280
a goon. Miss Kelly claims he was drunk and Evan

635
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,480
williams he's hanging out with miss Kelly. He's hanging out

636
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:04,679
with Baldwin and Eccles and eccles girlfriend lived across town.

637
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:08,320
Baldwin and Eccles and miss Kelly all lived in this

638
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:15,079
trailer park and across town was h eccles girlfriend's residence.

639
00:51:15,119 --> 00:51:18,800
Her name was Dominie Tier. He'd walk pretty much every

640
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,239
day to go see Dominie Tier and the short cut

641
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:26,960
he take was through robin Hood Woods. Okay, So Baldwin

642
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,960
and Eccles go to miss Kelly's trailer and they're like, yeah,

643
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,000
we're gonna we're gonna go party and we're gonna like

644
00:51:32,039 --> 00:51:35,119
fuck up these kids who've been like at our spot,

645
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,159
meaning robin Wood Hills. Miss Kelly's like, okay, he's always

646
00:51:39,159 --> 00:51:43,719
down to like go fuck somebody up. So they get

647
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,239
there and they see these three little kids playing around

648
00:51:47,079 --> 00:51:52,760
and according to uh, according to miss Kelly, Baldwin goes

649
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,079
and grabs one of them, and his friends start running.

650
00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:57,079
So Baldwin pulls a Knight and say it's come back

651
00:51:57,159 --> 00:52:01,840
or he's dead. So Baldwin escalated right away, So the

652
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:06,000
kids come back. Miss Kelly grabs on the bomb and

653
00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:09,599
starts just beating on him. He looks over, he says,

654
00:52:09,639 --> 00:52:14,039
Eccles is got this kid and he's like molesting him.

655
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:16,800
So miss Kelly says, he's kind of like the fuck.

656
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,760
Then he says he looks over at Baldwin and Baldwin's

657
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,559
cutting on the kid, and he said the kid's screaming,

658
00:52:27,599 --> 00:52:31,360
and then he goes silent, and then he said he

659
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,199
saw Baldwin. He said, I thought he was stabbing him,

660
00:52:34,199 --> 00:52:43,440
but he was castrating him. Eccles isn't shocked because even

661
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,440
though he's like raping this kid, basically, according to miss Kelly,

662
00:52:48,119 --> 00:52:50,079
goes with no idea, like bald was getting straight up

663
00:52:50,079 --> 00:53:02,159
like murder the kid. So Eccles freaks out starts strangling

664
00:53:02,159 --> 00:53:07,000
the kid that he's got. Miss Kelly says, he's kind

665
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,480
of in shock, so he let the kid go. He

666
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:14,199
starts running, he said, Baldwin goes get him, and either

667
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,840
out of fear of Baldwin or just you know, fear

668
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:23,199
of a witness ideing him, miss Kelly goes and brings

669
00:53:23,199 --> 00:53:27,199
the kid back, and he said quite literally delivered him

670
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:31,760
to Baldwin, and then Baldwin did him too, you know.

671
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:42,159
And uh, that basically tracks with the crime scene. And uh,

672
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:51,000
the luminol test thing obviously exists on soft ground, basically wetlands.

673
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,360
It was limited in what could be revealed, but what

674
00:53:55,519 --> 00:54:00,679
was revealed it basically tracked with what miss Kelly said.

675
00:54:01,639 --> 00:54:06,920
And the filmmakers Bell and jurn Sinofsky, as well as

676
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,079
the post defense team, they made a big issue out of, Oh,

677
00:54:11,079 --> 00:54:13,760
miss Kelly was wrong by the time of day. No,

678
00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:18,039
here's what miss Kelly was doing. The kids were murdered

679
00:54:18,199 --> 00:54:23,280
after dark, Okay. Miss Kelly kept saying, oh, yeah, I

680
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,079
was there, and you know, I helped him restrain the kids.

681
00:54:26,199 --> 00:54:28,719
Then I left. Oh it was before it got dark

682
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,559
that I left. Like in his kind of like ignorant mind,

683
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,440
he thought he was getting himself off of murder charges

684
00:54:35,559 --> 00:54:39,119
by saying, oh, yeah, I believe me. I participated in it,

685
00:54:39,199 --> 00:54:41,960
but I was gone before the murder happened. That's what

686
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,199
he was doing. He wasn't being fed dada by the

687
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,079
cops and screwing up the time of day. It's obvious

688
00:54:48,119 --> 00:54:50,840
if you read that, that's what he's doing. Okay, and

689
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:58,840
what's really the cops? Two things here and again this

690
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:05,559
is very gross. One of the boys head, uh, you'reine

691
00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:12,239
in his stomach and obviously, uh you know the uh,

692
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:17,599
the other boy was castrated. That wasn't release to anybody.

693
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:24,719
Miss Kelly knew that, you know, it wasn't even release

694
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,559
that there was any edged weapon injuries, let alone castration.

695
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,920
And the first thing out of miss Kelly's mouth is yeah,

696
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,719
then Jason started cutting on him. How do you know that?

697
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 4: So what do you make of this other character that

698
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,239
call him you know mister Bojangles right that, you know,

699
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,679
after the crime, a manager at a local boj Angles said, yeah,

700
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,159
there's this you know, older black guy comes in, you know,

701
00:55:53,199 --> 00:55:56,079
kind of bloody, disgruntled, cleans himself up in the bathroom

702
00:55:56,079 --> 00:55:59,519
and leaves. And at least some sources indicate that there

703
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,599
was you know, hair found in one of the blankets

704
00:56:02,679 --> 00:56:05,360
wrapping up one of the bodies that could have been

705
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,559
linked to a you know, a guy of African descent.

706
00:56:08,639 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I the rule. I mean, if you want

707
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,920
to raise reasonable doubt, just generally, you've got you've got

708
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,199
to produce this alternative suspect. You got to say, oh,

709
00:56:19,199 --> 00:56:22,440
there's this guy. Okay, that's great man, you know, like

710
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:27,199
I it's who is this guy? You know? That doesn't

711
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,559
rise to the level of it doesn't rise a standard

712
00:56:32,599 --> 00:56:39,400
of reasonable doubt. And also I basically what they're saying

713
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,960
is that there was some presumably like black hobo who

714
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:49,199
was hanging out in the woods. He somehow could control

715
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,280
three eight year old kids, assault them, murder all three

716
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:59,519
of them, all by himself, you know, without any of

717
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:06,320
them run and uh then he staggers presumably on the

718
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:12,199
woods through the blue beacon car wash is walking down

719
00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:15,239
the highway all bloody and messed up. Then he just

720
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,519
like ends up in this fast food restaurant bathroom. Like

721
00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:20,760
I don't I don't find incredible anyway. It's also they've

722
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:22,639
tried to make a big deal about the fact that,

723
00:57:22,719 --> 00:57:28,239
I mean, I think UH DNA and five evidence is

724
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,800
dubious in my opinion, not because the science if identifying

725
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,840
it as dubious. It's because people put too much it's

726
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,840
it's not binary in terms of what it indicates. The

727
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,039
people put too much weight on it. But one of

728
00:57:42,079 --> 00:57:45,840
the uh, one of the kids shoelaces that they were

729
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:50,000
bound with their shoelaces, like interstitially bound on the shoelaces

730
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,239
was a hair like one of the kids stepfather's friends,

731
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,039
because which obviously got picked up at the kid's house

732
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:03,000
where this man was regularly. And you know, there's people

733
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:08,559
who advocate for the in a sense of these defendants claiming,

734
00:58:08,639 --> 00:58:12,119
oh that that that proves that this random guy, David

735
00:58:12,159 --> 00:58:17,480
Jacobi did it because there's a hair consistent with his

736
00:58:17,679 --> 00:58:23,920
uh DNA profile that you know was at the scene.

737
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,159
So I mean, I think that that's nonsense. And uh

738
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:35,360
there clearly had to be multiple offenders because you can't.

739
00:58:35,679 --> 00:58:37,400
I mean that that's that's like trying to hurd cast.

740
00:58:37,519 --> 00:58:42,679
You can't. Like, one man wouldn't be able to control uh,

741
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,480
three eight year old boys. He'd be able to accost

742
00:58:47,599 --> 00:58:50,480
one of them. And then I mean, even even if

743
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:52,719
the guy was as fast as like an NFL wide receiver,

744
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:54,559
he's not gonna be able to murder one kid, grab

745
00:58:54,599 --> 00:58:56,599
the next one, murder him, and grab the next one

746
00:58:56,639 --> 00:59:00,320
without them running, you know. And and also they they

747
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,599
took their time with these kids, which is one of

748
00:59:02,639 --> 00:59:06,000
the really horrible things about it. This wasn't a quick thing.

749
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,519
They tortured these kids, you know.

750
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,079
Speaker 4: See, Thomas, I think we're coming up on time. There's

751
00:59:14,079 --> 00:59:17,920
a couple other aspects, uh, that I want to get into.

752
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:18,519
Speaker 2: Right.

753
00:59:18,599 --> 00:59:22,159
Speaker 4: You have this this female witness who plays sort of

754
00:59:22,159 --> 00:59:25,519
an interesting role in the trial, as well as this

755
00:59:25,719 --> 00:59:33,440
uh shall I say somewhat sinister character, Richard offsh Yeah, right, Uh,

756
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,960
you know, the the so called expert on h you know,

757
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:41,320
coerced confessions. Interestingly enough, there were actually two trials, if

758
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:44,599
I'm not mistaken, right, Uh, they sort of split them

759
00:59:44,679 --> 00:59:48,280
up and you know, limited which confessions could be used

760
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,239
in which trial. Uh do you want to speak to

761
00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:53,679
that just a little bit before we wrap and obviously

762
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:55,800
we'll be around for another one.

763
00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:01,519
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, the it's a Miskill, he's uh Baldwin

764
01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:04,559
and Echoles there they were tried together. Miss Kelly was

765
01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:11,960
tried separately, and uh that was tactical. But also they

766
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,880
you know the confrontation clause if they if miss Kelly

767
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,360
refused to take the stand, they wouldn't have been able

768
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:23,159
to introduce his his his uh confession against Eckles and

769
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:28,239
Baldwin because he just didn't he'd invoke his Fifth Amendment

770
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,039
rights and refused to testify. And so then okay, well

771
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,320
now you're using statements against that gals in Baldwin that

772
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,559
they can't challenge the declarant on and as I'm constitutional.

773
01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:45,280
And also it was uh even that notwithstanding they they

774
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,920
had miss Kelly dead the rights, despite what the Berlin

775
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,840
Jersonofski documentary says, had they joined his trial to Echals

776
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:57,159
in Baldwin, any defense counsel with as Salt would uh

777
01:00:58,119 --> 01:01:00,239
would have said, hey, he was there, but it's these

778
01:01:00,239 --> 01:01:03,519
two scumbags who did it, and they made very well

779
01:01:03,559 --> 01:01:05,760
have gotten his charge is knocked down. If not a

780
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,639
full on a quill, Okay, like, hey, my client's slow witted,

781
01:01:09,679 --> 01:01:12,400
and yeah he you know, he's he's not a good

782
01:01:12,519 --> 01:01:14,880
man and he might maybe he's a bully, but he's

783
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,159
no child molester and he's no killer. And he was

784
01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:19,960
led astray by these two sadists and you know, blah

785
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,599
blah blah. You know, I don't see acquittal coming out

786
01:01:22,599 --> 01:01:25,440
of the app but I definitely see you know, I

787
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,880
definitely see mitigation, you know.

788
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:29,719
Speaker 3: It.

789
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 2: Uh. And also I mean, like I said, they Dan Stidham,

790
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:40,880
who uh was Meskill's defense counsel, he did a very

791
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,400
good job, you know. Uh, I don't agree with but

792
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,039
sori of the case obviously, but you know he was

793
01:01:46,079 --> 01:01:50,239
he was adequately represented. Baldwin had some I don't know

794
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:52,519
where he got the money for this because his family

795
01:01:52,599 --> 01:01:56,320
was poor. Maybe the guy did it pro se or

796
01:01:57,199 --> 01:02:01,159
pro bono. I mean, but uh, Baldwin had a real

797
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,000
he had he had he had a real lawyer, you know,

798
01:02:04,039 --> 01:02:07,760
he had private council. It was some local big shot

799
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,880
who you know, had had a lot of trial work

800
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:15,920
to his name. Ecoles had an appointed attorney, but he

801
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,840
wasn't a PD if memory serves, and I'll double check

802
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,119
the record for this before he reconvene the way they

803
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,800
he was a private attorney was appointed by the court.

804
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,559
So but I mean again, so these guys weren't they

805
01:02:28,599 --> 01:02:31,440
weren't being set up for a fall by not being

806
01:02:31,519 --> 01:02:33,639
afforded adequate talents that wouldn't getting it.

807
01:02:35,079 --> 01:02:38,079
Speaker 4: Well, sure thing. We will continue the discussion in a

808
01:02:38,119 --> 01:02:40,159
week or so. Thank you so much, Thomas. This was

809
01:02:40,199 --> 01:02:43,079
a ton of fun, obviously, I, like many other people,

810
01:02:43,519 --> 01:02:48,440
am eagerly awaiting your new manuscript. I know it's getting close.

811
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,920
People can find you on your website on substack.

812
01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 2: Uh.

813
01:02:53,119 --> 01:02:55,079
Speaker 4: You know everything will be linked down in the description.

814
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,320
As far as my stuff, Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

815
01:02:59,519 --> 01:03:01,559
you want to artis, you can throw me a few

816
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:04,159
bucks a month. Get the episodes early in ad free

817
01:03:04,519 --> 01:03:08,400
on Patreon, Substack or gum Road. I know the ads

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01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,840
are annoying on the free version, so here's a way

819
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:12,840
to get rid of them. It's really not a bad deal.

820
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821
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,280
Axios is doing real well. You may see their ads

822
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:23,039
on a few other of your favorite podcasts coming up soon,

823
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,559
so get in on the ground floor. Head over to

824
01:03:25,639 --> 01:03:29,159
JD's website and yeah again, Thomas, thank you so much.

825
01:03:29,039 --> 01:03:32,119
Speaker 2: Man, thank you buddy, everyone to know them.

826
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:58,159
Speaker 4: Keep your head up. I can't last forever. Good night,