WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:39.119 It's so insane. It's so insane. 2 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:55.640 Boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo. All right, 3 00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:00.320 welcome everybody to another installment. We will be inter viewing 4 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:06.560 and reviewing the debate to get today with between William 5 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:09.560 Lane Craig and Muhammed had Job and my good friend 6 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:12.680 doctor Bo Branson joins me today. Of course, doctor bo 7 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:18.480 is very pertinent, very adjacent to this conversation because he's 8 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:23.840 published in the thing, the book that William lane Craig 9 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:27.680 mentioned in the debate about four views on trinity. Is 10 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:28.239 that correct? 11 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:30.239 Yeah, that's right. 12 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.680 So William lane Craig, me, Bill Hasker, who he mentioned 13 00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:39.079 during the debate, and Dale Tuggy, and. 14 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:42.680 That's four views on the trinity and particularly issues that 15 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:47.040 are relevant to this debate, such as inseparable operations. And 16 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:50.719 we'll kind of get into that later on. But what's 17 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:52.560 your before we get into the doctor bow, what's your 18 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:55.400 overall feeling and assessment of the debate before we get 19 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:56.359 into the particulars. 20 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:00.319 I was pretty disappointed, but. 21 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:05.799 I was actually really looking forward to it because, on 22 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:10.400 the one hand, William Lane Craig is just like legendary debater, 23 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.479 you know, super smart and everything, but I think that 24 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:16.840 the doctrum of the Trinity is literally his like the 25 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:21.400 weakest thing, you know that maybe his Christology, but anyway, 26 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:23.560 it's you know, something he's like really weak on. So 27 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:24.960 it's kind of like, wow, I mean this would be 28 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:28.719 really interesting to see, you know, his MOHAMEDI job, I'm 29 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:30.199 going to beat him? Is this going to be really 30 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:31.240 you know interesting? 31 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:34.159 But yeah, the. 32 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:37.840 So I guess for me, I mean, I just spent 33 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:40.280 a bunch of time on this book that we're in, 34 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.719 So I've kind of, you know, recently been thinking through 35 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.840 his whole model, and there's like a million things that 36 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.719 I want to say about it. And it was really 37 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.039 frustrating in the book too. It's like you just kind 38 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:55.479 of have a limited word count, you know, for every chapter. 39 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:58.199 So I think I had written like two or three 40 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:01.639 times the word out and still had stuff that was 41 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:03.560 just an outline form, and I was like, well, I 42 00:03:03.639 --> 00:03:06.520 gotta cut down everything. So I was thinking, like, there's 43 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:08.680 so much stuff that you could you could go through, 44 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:11.520 and Muhammed a job stuck the landing on any of 45 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:17.120 the arguments, Like he kind of mentioned different topics that 46 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:21.240 could go into like a larger debate, you know, or 47 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:25.080 larger argument for the incoherence of his view or something 48 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.759 like that. But he never really connected a lot of 49 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:31.439 those things. Like the first I don't know how much. 50 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.080 It was like quarter of the debate or something, where 51 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.840 he was just talking about how we only in Craig's view, 52 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:38.960 is heretical or whatever, and it's like, well, cool, but 53 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:41.919 how does that show that the doctor of the Trinity 54 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:42.479 in general? 55 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:43.800 Yeah? 56 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:44.400 Coherent? 57 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:47.840 Right? Which was the title of the debate was the 58 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:52.479 coherence of the Trinity? Before we get into that, And 59 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.840 this is an area that you you focus on you're 60 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.360 really good in. Could you tell us a little bit 61 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.319 I know, the lot of the audience does not know 62 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:03.560 the act academic literature and the sort of schools and theories. 63 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.000 Could you tell us a little bit on about what's 64 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.879 the difference between this what they're calling the debate, the 65 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.919 Latin model the Trinity and then social trinitarianism, which Wilane 66 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:17.680 Craig espouses. And then we'll kind of counter that with 67 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:21.839 the orthodox of you that you defend, which is monarchical trinitarianism. 68 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:28.680 So we'll start with social trinitarianism maybe, So what they 69 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:36.600 call social trinitarianism. Basically, all social trinitarians seem to be 70 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.040 really focused on this idea that the Father, Son, and 71 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:45.879 Holy Spirit are three distinct centers of consciousness and will 72 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:52.040 and whatever, so kind of three minds. That seems to 73 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:56.959 be sort of definitive of social trinitarianism. And then originally, 74 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:59.839 like you know, you read old older stuff on social trinitarianism, 75 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.800 was kind of like, well, then they formed this like society, 76 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:08.199 and God is really like the society. It's like you know, 77 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.199 God incorporated or something. 78 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:10.879 It's like the whole. 79 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:13.720 You know, they form this bigger thing. And there's been 80 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:16.160 all sorts of different kind of variations on it since then. 81 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.360 Those that's kind of just maybe that view is a 82 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:21.199 little unsatisfying in various ways. 83 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:23.920 That's what's the origin of that view. By the way, 84 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:26.560 who's kind of the first to propose that? Somebody pretty modern? 85 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:31.279 Right, Yeah, Actually, this is a book I'm supposed to 86 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:33.319 write over you for and I'm way ling on, but 87 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.360 this is a Protestant guy, Matthew Barrett. It's it's a 88 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:40.560 decent it's a decent introduction i'd say to like Western 89 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.720 sort of trinitarian thought, like he does a pretty good 90 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.240 job of that, and he goes in the first part 91 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:49.240 and really goes through a lot of kind of the 92 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:55.399 history of social trinitarianism and basically came up with kind 93 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:58.959 of to make the doctrine of the Trinity relevant because 94 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:04.040 it just wasn't like in Western theology anymore. So you know, 95 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:06.560 I thought, well, maybe if we make God into a society, 96 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:09.279 then we can just sort of map stuff from the 97 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.839 Trinity onto social things. And so he goes through all 98 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:15.199 these things about you know, how the Trinity has been 99 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.959 used to just you know, support like like environmentalism and 100 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.439 gay rights and feminism and you know, socialism, like just 101 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:27.560 all kinds of different things. But it definitely is in 102 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:29.800 the in the I think the fifties maybe is when 103 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:34.560 it when it first started. Really yeah, really kind of 104 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:39.519 coming out, so so not yeah, not super old. And 105 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:41.560 to say that the you know, the persons of the 106 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:46.680 Trinity kind of form a larger hole is partialism, I mean, 107 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.439 at least on a straightforward reading of it. And that's 108 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:56.000 you know, that's been rejected as a heresy for centuries, right, 109 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:02.160 So what they call the Latin model, I mean basically 110 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:09.519 it's really that's kind of a term for really more 111 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:15.160 like what people maybe a few decades ago sort of 112 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:20.319 thought that was going on in most Latin like scholastic 113 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:21.800 theology or something like that. 114 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:23.519 People used to have this view. 115 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.920 That there was a huge divide between like Greek and 116 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:32.360 Latin thought on the Trinity. I think Michelle Renee Barnes 117 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:36.360 and people like that have pretty much destroyed that kind 118 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:41.199 of caricature. But anyway, that was the idea was like, well, 119 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:43.959 the Latins kind of start with the one and then 120 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.079 move to the three, and the Greeks kind of start 121 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.759 with the three, so they're more clear about the distinction 122 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:50.480 of the persons. 123 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:54.000 But any case, I. 124 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.240 Guess the basic way to put what people usually mean 125 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:58.439 by the Latin view is just that God is this 126 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:04.720 one substance, so one simple thing and somehow I mean, 127 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.079 you know, if you're talking about like aquinas, the persons 128 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:12.759 are subsistent relations whatever exactly that means, and the you know, 129 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.199 the worry of course that everyone has as well. Latin 130 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:20.079 trinitarianism sounds like it's really just modalism and social trinitarianism, 131 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:25.199 or Greek as they used to understand it sounds like tritheism, 132 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.240 and so what's the you know, how do you avoid 133 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.399 both of those? Is kind of but I think that's 134 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.919 not a very accurate. 135 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.200 Well, but you would agree though that by the time 136 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.240 of the Middle Ages, as this is sort of a 137 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.320 side issue. But I know, how what people, for example, 138 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.720 people that are proponents of the Western right will hear 139 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:44.799 you say that there's not a big difference and think, oh, 140 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:47.279 we'll see he's saying that there's no difference between Polla, 141 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:50.960 Moss and Aquinas and everybody's teaching the same thing. You 142 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.240 don't believe that, do you, or that's not what you 143 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:53.799 mean by. 144 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:56.720 Well now, I guess. 145 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.720 I guess I would just say I think the more 146 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.639 I I mean, the further I go along, the more 147 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.879 I think maybe a lot of people just being misunderstood. 148 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:13.960 So like Augustine in particular, I find a lot of 149 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:18.159 times maybe we're just misinterpreting him. Like if you kind 150 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:21.080 of read him through a scholastic lens, then he looks 151 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:23.720 one way. But if you read him in the context 152 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:26.080 of you know, the other church Fathers at the time, 153 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:29.440 he might be closer really to the cappit oceans. 154 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:31.360 But well, I'm speaking more of the Middle Ages though, 155 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.480 Like with how am I synods in the way that 156 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:34.320 they treat. 157 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:36.639 About like a Quinas. 158 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:40.600 I mean, I do think like Aquinas's fascination with divine 159 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:45.200 simplicity is a problem, and I think that's that's kind 160 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.919 of a criticism A lot of modern philosophers would raise two, 161 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:51.519 which I don't think is well. 162 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.159 Part of the reason I bring that up is that 163 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.879 I remember years back I was listening to William Lane 164 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:58.360 Craig and he was he had a brief debate that 165 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.960 was only on audio with Bishop and Baron was defending 166 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.879 the Tomistic position, and I noticed that somehow or somewhere 167 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.679 along the way Wimline Craig apparently had got wind of 168 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:11.919 modal collapse arguments, and he sort of brought in this 169 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:15.120 critique of Tomism on the basis of modal collapse. But 170 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:17.240 he doesn't seem to have the toolkit of the Essen 171 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:20.039 Centergy distinction to really sort of make sense of it. 172 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:22.559 So a lot of what he talks about in these 173 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.080 discussions to me seems to be that he's lacking precisely 174 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.559 that toolkit, which is in my view also connected to 175 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:32.120 the a Pollinarian position that he has, because for him, 176 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:37.440 person is really equated to like a like a human 177 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:39.840 like an individual over there, a person is just an 178 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.679 individual with a body and of soul. And so that's 179 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:45.960 why it's the a pollinarian error, because if he visays 180 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:51.320 Christ is, you know, the logos is replacing the human 181 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:54.240 soul or the human mind in the humanity of Christ. 182 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:56.960 That's a confusion of nature and person on the level 183 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.480 of humans. And so I think that there's this nature 184 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:02.879 person mistake, and then there's Assassin's interim. It's the thing 185 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.799 that's missing in the in the WAE online Craig scheme. 186 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:08.399 Yeah, no, I agree. 187 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.720 I actually in this book, I find I find Craig 188 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:16.639 very unclear at times. It's very strange because I mean, 189 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:19.759 other you know, he's an analytic philosopher, and he's generally 190 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.519 speaking very clear, very precise, and I find it hard 191 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.519 to kind of parse. And also I guess he's changed 192 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:30.480 his views, so I criticize a bunch of stuff and 193 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:32.200 then he's like, oh, I don't believe that anymore. 194 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:34.960 But uh, but yeah. 195 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:36.519 One of the things that I, by the end of 196 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:38.200 it I pointed out is like, yeah, the way that 197 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:45.799 he understands being in person or person and nature is 198 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.840 sort of reversed. So what he calls try I put 199 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:55.240 it this way, what he calls tri personal monotheism, I say, 200 00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:00.279 is what Gregory of Nissa would probably call try theistic modalism. Yeah, 201 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:03.360 it's really he really when he talks about so his 202 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:06.559 view is kind of there's God is like this one soul, 203 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.759 this one immaterial soul that has three sets of top 204 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:17.759 So he really has one hyposthesis that has three different powers, 205 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.559 which we would kind of one to one associate a 206 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:27.759 particular power with a particular instance of a nature. So 207 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:31.840 it's I mean, he really does ultimately have one person 208 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:34.799 with three natures. I mean that's kind of how our 209 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:40.559 or three energies. Explicitly he'd say that. So it's just 210 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:43.240 kind of the opposite of what it, you know, is 211 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:47.159 supposed to be. But anyway, that's yeah, that's kind of 212 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:49.879 his his view for better or worse, which I think 213 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:51.919 there's a million things you can criticize about that, And 214 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:55.559 I was hoping that Muhammed a Jab would, you know, 215 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:58.440 find something that it's just like he kind of focused 216 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:02.960 on a handful of things, could have gone a lot 217 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:05.960 deeper in a lot of issues. But anyway, I guess 218 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:07.200 we'll we'll talk about that. 219 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:09.840 So getting into the debate, he opens up what we 220 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.919 online Craig does by he didn't really plan the five 221 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.279 minutes or however long they had, because maybe it's four 222 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.159 minutes or something like that, because he kind of like 223 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:20.399 was saying stuff and then the time right now. But 224 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:22.759 he did the sort of pitch on the basis of 225 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:26.120 the kalamb argument, which was intended to appeal to I think, 226 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.480 to the Islamic audience, which most Muslims don't really care 227 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:33.279 about kalam and medieval philosophical disputes. And that's really why 228 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:36.080 I think in this debate, Muhammed a Jab, who doesn't 229 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:39.120 know these topics, was relying totally on Jake by his 230 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.360 own admission, for a lot of this that the. 231 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.039 Whole time he put out a Muhammed a job put 232 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:49.960 out some video just afterwards that was he just explicitly 233 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:50.279 said that. 234 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.799 I was like, yeah, what it sounds. Yeah. There was 235 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:55.799 a funny mistake he made where he seemed to think 236 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:58.399 that the law of identity is the same thing as 237 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.600 the is of credication and that's why it's the is 238 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:04.240 of identification law, which those are not the same things. 239 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:08.240 But that was an attempt to sort of trick Williamlin 240 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.200 Craig with some version of the logical problem of the 241 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.799 trinity and the predicating of if the Father's God, the 242 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.799 Son's God, the Spirit's God, then the Father is the 243 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:20.480 Son based on identical predication. But you know, we've dealt 244 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:23.480 with that, You've covered that in terms of the debate 245 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:25.600 that I did with Jake as well. But before we 246 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.559 get to that, so he appeals to the colomn cosmologic argument. 247 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:30.799 I don't think it's a very good apologetic argument. William 248 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.240 ly and Craig believes that he's revived this and sort 249 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.919 of made it relevant again. But the first mistake that 250 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:41.159 I saw, and feel free to agree disagree with my 251 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:44.039 take on it, was he began his argument for the 252 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.600 trinity by saying first that it's a New Testament doctrine doctrine. 253 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.600 I think it's very important that we understand that it's 254 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:51.200 not only a New Testament doctrine. 255 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:53.960 Yeah, that kind of came up. 256 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.799 I mean, we didn't unfortunately, really get into that in 257 00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:59.200 any detail in the book, but it definitely it will 258 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:03.519 be obvious to you or any Orthodox person like that 259 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:06.960 we're just coming at this from completely different angles. One 260 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:09.679 thing that really like irked me, and I just didn't 261 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.799 have time. I didn't have word count, you know, to 262 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.399 actually address it. Was he he mentions a few times, 263 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.600 like in the Gospel of John, you know, when John 264 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:23.440 says Isaiah saw his glory. But the way that Craig 265 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:28.080 always like describes it, He's like, oh, look, John is 266 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:33.720 like he says like retroactively doing some or like retrojecting 267 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.720 Christ like back into the Old Testament, you know, in 268 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:39.720 this appearance of yahweh or whatever. 269 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:44.320 And I'm like, no, that's that's not what John's saying 270 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:48.159 at all. Like that He's saying Isaiah saw yeah, exactly, 271 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:49.559 sitting on the throne. 272 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.320 Like that's that's the idea, because I go into that 273 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.559 in my in my chapters I talk about the Theophanes. 274 00:15:57.159 --> 00:15:58.600 You know, it is like one of the things that 275 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.600 you you about the Trinity needs to address because historically 276 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.320 that was this like major one of the major you know, 277 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.519 things that was kind of driving the doctrine was how 278 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:13.519 do we make sense? And it's very clear just if 279 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:14.120 you read. 280 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:18.519 Justin versus Tripho for example, Yeah, yeah, like yeah. 281 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:22.840 Early Christian stuff and also late Temple, late second Temple, right, 282 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:24.159 and then look. 283 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:24.879 At the New Testament. 284 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:27.559 I mean I go in and kind of mention some 285 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.600 of that and compare anyway, I go through sort of 286 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.120 the probability of it all. But point being like, it's 287 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:37.519 very clear that the New Testament authors themselves were looking 288 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.440 at the Old Testament and saying how do you make 289 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:41.799 sense out of the Theophanes and sort of saying, well, 290 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:47.960 Christ is the god that that appeared to Moses, Jacob 291 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.000 and so on. And Craig is just kind of like, oh, well, 292 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.399 they're you know, sort of reading him back into it. 293 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.039 Or well, but I mean Jesus himself, John five through nine, 294 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.440 in the debates with the Pharisees, identifies himself as the 295 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.320 one talk to Moses, as the one eating with Abraham. 296 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:07.079 So yeah, yeah, yeah, and he just doesn't I mean, 297 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:09.160 he just you know, he thinks that the Old Testament 298 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.519 Theophanies I guess were God the Father, and that it's 299 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.920 just sort of reading Jesus back into But for Craig 300 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.680 that's kind of all I mean, yeah, I mean that's 301 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.480 his view, right. It's just like, oh, we look at 302 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:24.559 the New Testament. The New Testament authors are indicating that 303 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.240 Jesus is divine and that's kind of you know, that's 304 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.000 all he cares well. 305 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:32.599 But I mean again, maybe you don't agree with this, 306 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.720 but this is a key point I think against kind 307 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.119 of the natural theology presuppositions that William glene Craig appealed 308 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:40.839 to multiple times to say, hey, we believe in monotheism 309 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.359 just like you Muslims. He said this multiple times in 310 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:45.480 the debate. And you know, when you look at the 311 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.519 Vatican two documents when they talk about the purpose of 312 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:52.720 natural theology, it's explicitly in Lemgentium sixteen and Nostrotate three, 313 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:55.519 it's explicitly to find this common ground that we're all 314 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:58.440 worshiping the God of Abraham. The Muslims have the faith 315 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:00.640 of Abraham like we do. Vatican two is that twice. 316 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.200 But of course, to according to Paul, the faith of 317 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.839 Abraham is the faith in the Angel of Yahweh. It's 318 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:09.319 not a faith in a Unitarian deity. And this is 319 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:11.880 very important for this this discussion. So I think that 320 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:17.119 from an apologetic standpoint, that's a weak position to take 321 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.759 if you're taking the Christian position against the Muslim to say, oh, well, 322 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.039 we all believe in monotheism, but it's not the same monotheism. 323 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.680 So anyway, Yeah, and I think that's right. 324 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.799 I think it's I mean, it's it's an important point 325 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.799 because it's like, yeah, I mean, you can you can 326 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:37.839 say something like we all agree that the total count 327 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:41.880 of God's equals one or something like that, right, But 328 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.559 it's like, I mean, if you're worshiping a different god, like, 329 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.440 no one would be okay if someone was just like, well, 330 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:50.640 I worship Bail and Bail alone, you know, so I've 331 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:54.519 got one guy, I'm a monotheistic just you know, like, 332 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:58.400 no one would be happy with that, right, And and 333 00:18:58.519 --> 00:18:58.799 it is. 334 00:18:59.079 --> 00:18:59.400 It does. 335 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:02.200 It does put things in a very different light when 336 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:05.680 you when you point out, like, no, the god that 337 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:11.359 gave the Torah to Moses was Jesus. Yes, well, that 338 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.559 puts things in a very different light when you're claiming 339 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:19.000 to worship this god. But also, you know, it's sort 340 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.039 of like the scene where someone's like talking about how 341 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.880 cool Spider Man is and then Peter Parker's there and 342 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:26.799 they're like making. 343 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.119 Fun of him. You know, it's like, well, you're maybe you. 344 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.599 Realize the inconsistency and the irony of it, but you're 345 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:38.119 you're doing something that's kind of out of place there, right, 346 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:40.960 And yeah, that gets lost when you just sort of say, well, 347 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:42.160 we're all Manothius. 348 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:43.119 Yeah. 349 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.519 Next to issue that I think is tied into the 350 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:49.119 one about the New Testament only being or being the 351 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.279 basis for where he supposedly wants to prove the Trinity. 352 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:52.720 It says, I don't know where he would get this, 353 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.319 my guess would be the Protestant idea of the persepecuty 354 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:58.200 of scripture, and this idea that well, the text just 355 00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:59.839 says what it means, and it means what it says. 356 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.160 This is a common refrain from Protestants and soul scripturists. 357 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:06.759 He says that there is no metaphysics, there's no baggage, 358 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.599 there's no hair splitting. The New Testament, doctor, the Trinity 359 00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:13.279 is really only two basic tenets, that there's one God 360 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.599 and three persons. But I don't know, I mean, where 361 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.599 in the New Testament alone is that the two basic tenants. 362 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:24.480 I think he's assuming the Protestant presuppositions here that there 363 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:26.960 is this lowest common denominator that we can scale it 364 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.039 down in the New Testament. And then he said there 365 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.559 is nothing in the New Testament about intertrinitarian relationships in life, 366 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:34.279 which I thought was an odd statement. 367 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.200 Yeah, we get into that in the book a little 368 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:45.680 bit too. He's he wrote a paper about the the 369 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:46.680 eternal generation. 370 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.319 It's something like, what is you know, is Christ. 371 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.880 Generated or be gotten in his divine nature? So he 372 00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.920 has this view just well call him the sun because 373 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:04.240 he was incarnate and something like that. And he goes 374 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:06.680 through and just kind of you know, he he just 375 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.880 sort of tries to argue that the Bible doesn't sort 376 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:14.039 of explicitly make that clear whatever. But he doesn't really, 377 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.440 at least as far as I can tell, in anything 378 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:22.000 he's written, he doesn't really have any like positive reason 379 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.720 to reject eternal generation except for this thing about aseity. 380 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.519 He just thinks like, well, if you have the divine nature, 381 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:31.720 you have to be asse, which I think, I mean. 382 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.640 I've called that a Yeah, that was the Jake argument 383 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:35.559 that you guys had. 384 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:40.240 And I kind of gave a I gave a little 385 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.119 argument against that in the book. And also I just 386 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.319 pointed out, you know, this also comes down to a 387 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:53.079 question what is the Bible? Because the Septuagint says from 388 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.640 the womb before the morning Star, I have begotten the right, 389 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.759 and that's I don't know something else. I think it's 390 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.640 some jumbled mess in the masoretic text that does like 391 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:07.079 no one knows what it looks like, text corrupted or something. 392 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.920 But but anyway, I mean, I'm like, well, what's you know? 393 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:14.240 Is the Septuagint not the Bible. It's my Bible. 394 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:18.400 It's so kind of and there's i mean, there's also 395 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:19.079 I think. 396 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.920 Warrant for it in the New Testament. You just kind 397 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:25.319 of have to dig a little bit deeper. But but yeah, 398 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.839 he one thing that's frustrating too to me is he 399 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.160 he talks about what he calls the Biblical doctrine of 400 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.559 the Trinity, and that's what he calls it in this book. 401 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:40.200 But you would think that a phrase like the Biblical 402 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.000 doctrine of the Trinity would just mean like whatever the 403 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:47.720 Bible says about the Trinity, right, whatever. 404 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:48.400 That ends up being. 405 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.160 But of course if that's what it meant, then like 406 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.240 Dale Tuggy, who's a Unitarian, would claim that he believes 407 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:58.119 in the Biblical like what the Bible says. 408 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:00.319 I think everybody every or something. 409 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:04.880 Yeah, what's the content of that, right, Like everyone will 410 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:09.519 claim to believe it. But he like just stipulatively defines like, okay, 411 00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.319 by biblical doctrum of the Trinity. I mean, you know, 412 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.039 boom boom boom, and it's like okay, but I mean 413 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.720 that's not necessarily like I don't know that that's all 414 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.200 and only what the Bible says about the like there's 415 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:27.039 more So it's kind of a textbook example of persuasive definition, 416 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.319 like he's just trying to kind of pack a premise 417 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.000 into yeah, pretend like that's the definition of it. 418 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.640 But as I was gonna say, it's. 419 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:42.400 Sort of defining trinitarianism in sort of a broad sense 420 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:45.640 of the term, as like one God in three persons. 421 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:49.720 But it might not be orthodox trinitarianism. 422 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:50.599 It might be you know. 423 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.279 I mean I argue like, I mean, when we really 424 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:56.599 talk about the doctrine of the Trinity, we really mean 425 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:01.039 what the Church settled on in the fourth century. And 426 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.440 so that's just I mean, in my view, that's just 427 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:08.400 what the term refers to. So I mean I just 428 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:09.960 kind of say, by the end of the book, like 429 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:15.319 if you're gonna just knowing like deliberately reject the Nicene 430 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:17.720 doctrine of the Trinity, like what's in the Creeds and 431 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:21.960 the Church fathers like just say, I reject the doctrine 432 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.240 of the Trinity, like I reject what English speakers are 433 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:26.680 referring to when they talk. 434 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.200 About the doctrine of the Trinity, because you know, I 435 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:30.720 don't think it's in the Bible. 436 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.279 Well, I mean, even even the Church fathers would complain 437 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:36.480 that every heretic, whether it's you know, me, yes, or 438 00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:39.200 whether it's Nestorius, would say, well, I believe in the 439 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:41.240 doctrine of the Father, the Son of the Spirit, and 440 00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:44.319 my my doctrine as biblical. Yeah, but what does it 441 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.279 mean is of course the key question here. So a 442 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:49.720 lot of word gains, a lot of ambiguity, of textual 443 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:55.359 and referential ambiguity. Now, the next thing I noticed was 444 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.359 that and this this might be a little more controversial, 445 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:01.759 but he said there's no metaphysics involved in the Doctor 446 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:03.599 in the Trinity. I'm not sure that that's the case 447 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:04.920 even in the New Testament. I mean, you have in 448 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.640 Hebrews won the statement that the Son is the direct 449 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.480 image of the Father's hypostasis. There's some kind of you know, 450 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:16.039 meaning to that that's more than just what the text says. 451 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.440 I mean, this is again a very common Protestant argument 452 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:21.640 that texts just mean when they say, they say what 453 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.400 they mean. And when he was asked about this, why 454 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:26.759 do you you know, why do you have this position? 455 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.559 And he says, well, I believe in solar scriptura. So 456 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:31.960 you know, I thought there was going to be more 457 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:35.960 of a high falutin fancy reason why maybe we get 458 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:38.720 into asaity like you're saying, But it just ended up 459 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:40.519 being well, I just followed the New Testament, and this 460 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.200 is what the New Testament says. But again, what about 461 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.720 these other verses where philosophical quote unquote terminology is used, 462 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:48.119 like hypostasis. 463 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:54.079 Yeah, and I mean scholars have tracked down so many 464 00:25:55.119 --> 00:26:00.519 passages for Paul and other people like use terminology from Platanism, 465 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:03.200 from Stoicism and so forth. So it's like even in 466 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.400 the New Testament, people are drawing on the resources of 467 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.319 Greek philosophical thought, you know, to make their points. 468 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:13.640 So yeah, I agree. 469 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:18.079 I mean I think it's I think people want theology 470 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:23.240 to be sort of metaphysics free somehow sort of feel 471 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.640 like it should be or something. But yeah, I don't 472 00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:31.319 know that that really works. What was it you were 473 00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:34.519 I was just thinking of too? Well, anyway, I'll think 474 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:35.119 of it later. 475 00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:39.319 But like Greek terminology and New Testament, what were. 476 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.119 You saying just before that that you're. 477 00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:46.119 The text means what it says. There's no that text 478 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.920 aren't theory laid and they're just kind of you know surface. 479 00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:51.279 Yeah, well, one thing, I think, here's what I was 480 00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:54.519 thinking of. He he does this in the book like 481 00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:58.319 he spent it's really the book was disappointing. I thought, 482 00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:03.799 in some sense his first chapter a litle disappointing. He 483 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:08.039 is like ninety percent of his first chapter just going 484 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:11.160 through like New Testament evidence for the divinity of Jesus, 485 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.279 like so or evidence of I guess the divinity of 486 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:17.319 Jesus in the New Testament, right, So he tries to 487 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:20.039 make the case that the New Testament authors think Jesus 488 00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:23.440 divine and that's like literally ninety percent of the of 489 00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:26.920 the chapter. And then he just has like a page 490 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.519 and a half or something at the end where he's like, okay, 491 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:31.400 and here's my model of the trinity years how I 492 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.240 think this works, you know, And he's just like, yeah, 493 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:36.279 God is an immaterial try personal being. 494 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:38.480 Boom, no metaphysics, no, nothing. 495 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.440 Banned out, And I, you know, I just laid out 496 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:44.160 like here are kind of the arguments against the Doctor 497 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:46.920 of the Trinity, like the biggest ones in the literature, 498 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:49.880 and you know, you want a model to kind of 499 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:52.519 be able to answer those. And you also here's you know, 500 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:55.519 the theophany issue that's kind of an argument for the Trinity, 501 00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.480 and you want your model to be consistent with what 502 00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:02.799 originally was one of the major you know, impetuses if 503 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:03.119 that's a. 504 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:04.079 Word for the Trinity. 505 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.319 So uh, and I just get like, look, you're like 506 00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:10.160 you haven't answered either. 507 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:10.759 Of these big questions. 508 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:13.400 I mean, the the obvious question is is the Doctor 509 00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:16.519 of the Trinity tritheistic? Like is the Father Son and 510 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:20.240 Holy Spirit? Is that three gods? And just telling me 511 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:23.720 like there is one God, but there are three persons, 512 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.599 father Son, and Holy Spirit, each of whom can properly 513 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:31.920 be called God and properly means like literally, not just 514 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:37.680 metaphorically or whatever like that that just creates the quote. 515 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.079 I mean, that's what the big question is, is like, 516 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.039 how do you if you can call each one of 517 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:47.559 these God, then how is that not three gods? Like 518 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.240 you have to like that's the question, and he he 519 00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.200 doesn't do anything to answer the question. I mean he 520 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:54.799 just kind of acts like it's just there's no problem, 521 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:57.400 and it's like, now you haven't you haven't addressed the 522 00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:58.160 question at all. 523 00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:01.119 Well, one question I have because I've only read I 524 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.880 read Reasonable Faith, and I read his book Defending Genesis. 525 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:07.920 So that's really the only William Lane Krebb books I've 526 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:10.200 read over the years. I thought the Genesis book was 527 00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:14.400 actually pretty good. But does he ever interact with the 528 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:19.200 Cappadocian models and approaches that you specialize and talk about 529 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:21.039 in Yeah, a. 530 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:26.559 Few times, but very lightly, I would say, and in 531 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.720 a way that's like frustratingly selective. Also, so like he 532 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:35.519 has a paper where he was he was criticizing Mike 533 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:40.440 Ray's model of the Trinity, and he kind of draws 534 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:45.319 on like one of Basil's epistles and kind of says it. 535 00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:47.319 You know, it looks like maybe Basil is talking about 536 00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:50.400 this kind of view and rejecting it. But then, of course, 537 00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:52.519 you know, if you point out that their church fathers 538 00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:55.240 that are rejecting his views, just like oh, well, you know, 539 00:29:55.319 --> 00:30:01.440 I'm a Protestant, I bring everything before the bar of scripture. Why, Yeah, 540 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:05.400 it's just kind of odd. So yeah, I mean he 541 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.480 kind of just vaguely, you know, he talks about how 542 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.079 the Capit oceans were clear, that there's a distinction between 543 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:15.400 the persons. Yeah, sometimes he kind of mentions them, but 544 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:19.759 it doesn't really doesn't really make munchy. 545 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:24.319 Now that book is you had sent me, I think 546 00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:26.640 an advanced version of that. I've got to read some 547 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:28.680 of that, did you Is that out yet or is 548 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:29.480 it still that out yet? 549 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:31.799 No, it's I don't really know what's going on with it. 550 00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.920 It's still the publishers. We all we all spend it 551 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:40.400 our final drafts like January first, like everything was was in. 552 00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.880 So it's been there since then. I got and every 553 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.640 now and then I get an email from the editor 554 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:47.480 and it's like, oh, they're trying to figure out you know, 555 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.759 this is a typo or whatever. And so I'm not 556 00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:52.039 really sure what's delayed it. 557 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:54.319 But and one more time. The title is four of 558 00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:56.440 yous on the Trinity, and that's what published. 559 00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:03.960 One god, three persons, four views. I think it's whipping stock. 560 00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:09.759 Chad McIntosh will be the editor, So we'll see when. 561 00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.599 It comes out. I'll sart, yeah, come. 562 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.880 Back and we'll we'll get a deeper interview on that. 563 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:17.920 Now moving on the next section. Is Mohammed a Job 564 00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:22.119 giving his opening statement. William Craig did end his opening 565 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.640 statement with it which a good question, which is, you know, 566 00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:28.240 tal heat is not a unified position in Islam. Of 567 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:30.799 course we brought this up a lot in the Muslim debates. 568 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.000 I brought it up to the Muslim Muslim lantern not 569 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:36.400 too long ago, and which is a fair question. And 570 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:38.720 then of course they will say, well that and my 571 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.000 edge up. So this is too quoquay. I don't. I mean, 572 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.519 I'm not sure it is too quoqua, because doing an 573 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.200 internal critique isn't too quoquay. And I think in a 574 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.880 debate it's a fair question to ask, Okay, I have 575 00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:51.799 a burden of proof if we're going to debate the trinity. 576 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:53.960 But I don't think it's unfair to ask. You know, 577 00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.319 you have the same kind of issue of reconciling the 578 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.400 one in the mini in God as well. It's not persons, 579 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:01.960 but for you, the attributes of all law, the dependence 580 00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:04.839 relationship of the attributes. So I think that's a fair question. 581 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.880 But Mohammed a Job tried to side step but by 582 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.359 saying well, you don't disagree that there's one a law, 583 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.160 but we just disagree on what that means. Well, that's 584 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.079 the point. So just saying that you all believe in 585 00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:17.640 one a law is another word game. 586 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:21.400 Really we say, yeah, we agree that there's one God, 587 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:23.920 we disagree about you know what all that requires? 588 00:32:24.039 --> 00:32:26.240 And that led to deaths. Actually, this wasn't just a 589 00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:29.160 minor dispute. There were just in the early Islamic stages 590 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:30.759 that were killing each other over this, so it's not 591 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:31.799 some minor dispute. 592 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:32.960 Yeah. 593 00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:34.720 Yeah, I thought about that too. 594 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:36.920 When he said, like, that's a two quotque, I was 595 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.599 kind of like, well, like yeah, I mean, on the 596 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.160 one hand, it doesn't show that the doctorate of the 597 00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:47.079 Trinity is right coherent, but it I think it There 598 00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:53.119 is a point to saying, like, you know, you're offering 599 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:59.400 this argument against the Trinity, but you yourself don't believe 600 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:03.240 one of the premises exactly, yeah you did, It would 601 00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:07.200 cause this other problem for your own view, So it 602 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:11.039 seems a little disingenuous, right, So I think it was legitimate. 603 00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:15.920 I mean, maybe it wasn't right immediately obvious to muhammedan 604 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:19.599 job like how it was relevant or something, but but 605 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:23.839 I thought, yeah, it's relevant if like your own worldview 606 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:26.240 can't sustain. 607 00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:26.519 That or whatever. 608 00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.319 And I think that the next question that Hajab asked 609 00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:31.200 what you brought up, which I think this was a 610 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:33.519 fair question and I think we would agree with this, 611 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.880 which is that William Lane Craig does not represent historic 612 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:39.200 or mainstream Christianity. 613 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:40.039 Uh. 614 00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:43.680 And so yeah, but one that's where I was like, 615 00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:48.599 I wish that Muhammed hi Jab would have just explained, like, what, 616 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:52.119 what exactly is the conclusion that you were aiming at 617 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:55.000 with that, because it's like, I mean, I'm listening to it, 618 00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:57.240 and I'm like, yeah, I wish that William Lane Craig 619 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:01.359 would not be a trinitarian heretic. That'd be awesome, and 620 00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:04.400 I agree you shouldn't be. But uh, and it's sort 621 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:07.640 of like vaguely embarrassing, like ahaha, you've got, you know, 622 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:13.360 this kind of minority and basically heretical view. But it's like, okay, 623 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:14.920 so but then where are you going with that? 624 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.119 Well, the conclusion he tried to draws in non sequitor. 625 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:21.719 The conclusion was because Weenland Craig's trinitarian doctrine is outside 626 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:25.039 of the norm, outside the mainstream, that the trinity is 627 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:29.679 not a clear, conspicuous uh doctrine doctrine and Christians disagree well, 628 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:31.360 of course, but that wouldn't disprove the trinity. 629 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:35.559 So I mean, that's that's I think that's part of 630 00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:38.000 what Craig is trying to do with this really broad 631 00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:43.800 definition of just like one God, three persons, that's the trinity. 632 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.280 Is kind of like, well then anything that falls under 633 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:48.400 that umbrella like count says. 634 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:51.599 Which is interesting because Muhammed a Jab wanted a very 635 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:57.400 broad umbrella for Muslims all believe God has won. So yeah, 636 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.679 so if there was a fair standards here, yeah, he 637 00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:03.360 should have granted. I think this broad definition, even though 638 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:06.480 I don't agree with that broad definition, but still from 639 00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.599 a debate perspective, it shows I think a double standard. Yeah. 640 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:12.159 Weird thing too about that is, I mean, if you're saying, 641 00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:14.880 if you're gonna say, okay, William Lane, Craig's view doesn't 642 00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:21.199 really represent like historically the mainstream Orthodox view about the Trinity, 643 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:25.239 then what that really does? That means you could demolish 644 00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.559 Craig's view and you haven't really addressed like, you know, 645 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:33.000 the yeah, Orthodox view. So it was sort of like 646 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:35.760 he just thought well, if William Lane Craig like grants 647 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:42.599 that the standard view is incoherent or something, then at 648 00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:44.519 the very end of the debate too, I mean he 649 00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:47.519 even sort of he said this. He was just like, well, 650 00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:50.320 William Lane Craig and I have demolished the you know, 651 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:54.199 traditional Orthodox view or whatever. His own view also has problems. 652 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:56.800 It's like, you didn't demolish it. He just both agreed 653 00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:01.559 to not talk about it and sort of agreed to say. 654 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.599 Well, this has to do. I think also with Muhammed 655 00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:09.280 a Jab intentionally choosing William Lane Craig as his opponent 656 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:12.079 because it allows him to say, I'm debating the most 657 00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.960 quote eminent of the Christian apologists that are out there. 658 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:17.360 Once I've done this, I don't really have to deal 659 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.840 with anyone else because he's sort of the figurehead of it. 660 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.519 But he's not really the figurehead if by all of 661 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:27.280 the argumentation my job is making, he's the fringe outlier, 662 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:30.199 so he's not so. But I think it was an 663 00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:33.880 intentional choice to debate when like Craig and to explicitly 664 00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:38.519 not choose to debate me and Sam or me or 665 00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.199 Sam or me and Sam and him and Jake, which 666 00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:43.519 he doesn't seem to want to do. Yeah. 667 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:44.920 Yeah. 668 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:50.320 Right after that debate, Capturing Christianity did a review like 669 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:54.760 a few hours later or whatever, and David Wood made 670 00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:59.639 some interesting observations about it. So one was that that 671 00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:02.519 he like maybe he was going to just try to 672 00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:05.280 from now on be like, well, I've already debated wien 673 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:06.800 Link Craig, I don't need to you know, I don't 674 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:11.320 have to debate anybody anymore, which is probably and that 675 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:16.639 sounds plausible. But also he made an interesting point about 676 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.679 who he thought the intended audience was, and he thought that, 677 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:26.800 you know, this maybe wasn't really directed towards like trying 678 00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:29.639 to convince Christians that the doctrine of the Trinity is 679 00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:33.639 incoherent and they should become Muslims, or trying to convince 680 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:35.760 people who are kind of on the fence or agnostic 681 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:38.719 or whatever, but just trying to but that he's really 682 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.039 is just kind of trying to keep Muslims from. 683 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.920 No, it's their audience. In fact, I think the last 684 00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:48.440 several Multimum debates were really just done for Muscile audiences. Yeah, 685 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:51.480 to find a kind of like well clip that clip 686 00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:53.320 that little thirty second there and make it look like 687 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:55.639 Jay didn't know what he was saying or Sam didn't. No, 688 00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:58.079 that's exactly it. And to that to that first point, actually, 689 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.280 Muhammed had Job today said that very thing. He said, 690 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:02.639 I've debated William Lane Craig, I don't have to debate 691 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.400 anybody else. Yes, he said that on Twitter today. So yeah, 692 00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.559 I think that David was correct there. But again I 693 00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:11.800 want to issue the challenge again to Mohamed d Job. 694 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:14.039 I did talk to Myron today and Myron said that 695 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:20.039 freshen Fit would host me and Sam shimun versus Mohammed 696 00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:22.320 a Job and Jake, because Mohammed a Jab was saying 697 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.320 that Sam has to debate Jake first, then he would 698 00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.199 debate Mohammed a Job and then Sam's idea was, well, 699 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:29.719 why don't we just do it two verses two? So 700 00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:34.000 that should solve everybody's complaints if we want to do that. 701 00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:38.239 But anyway, get it back to the debate. So it 702 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:41.000 seemed like he was trying to sneak in a little 703 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.199 bit of that logical problem of the trinity there, because 704 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:46.880 he said, if Father is God, Son is God Spirit God, 705 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:50.119 therefore Father is Spirit because all our God, this all 706 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.760 relies on just sort of one usage or reference to 707 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.199 the word God, as if God couldn't pick out different things, 708 00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:59.719 which again I think comes from Jake. Thank you, and 709 00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:03.199 we've covered that. I think you helped pointing to a 710 00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:05.559 lot of the literature and various papers that deal with 711 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:09.000 different ways of counting anything you wanted to say, because 712 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:10.960 they didn't really go into logical problem. The tourney just 713 00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:13.280 kind of just kind of mentioned in passing. 714 00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.159 Hey, I mean I took a bunch of notes. 715 00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:19.400 And then I was just thinking about that today. I 716 00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.039 was like, did I miss something or did he just 717 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.239 never really it never came back. They claim that this 718 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.880 is three gods, which is kind of surprising, like seems 719 00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:31.320 like that's the first thing a Muslim would want to do, 720 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:32.559 would be. 721 00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:33.199 Say this is. 722 00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:37.039 I kind of thought about that. I'm like, if they 723 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:40.360 just decided that that's kind of played out or well. 724 00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:43.880 And but to your point where this debate goes when 725 00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:48.320 it gets to inseparable operations, I mean, unless I misunderstood, 726 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:52.639 you're saying that the model that this inverted Nissa model 727 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:56.119 that Wimland Craig has it actually kind of does lead 728 00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.159 to tritheism, right. 729 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.719 Yeah, I think I think so and it's one thing 730 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:05.119 that that comes up. So see this is one of 731 00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:07.239 the So this is one of the things that was 732 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:11.679 kind of disappointing. I guess maybe Muhammed Hi jab A 733 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.639 k A. Jake would not have any way to to 734 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.880 know all this maybe, But anyway, this that kind of 735 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.199 comes out in the book that Craig has. This just 736 00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:28.880 is completely inconsistent about what he thinks about counting and such. 737 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:32.559 So he'll when I talk a little bit about you 738 00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:36.599 know how in antiquity people would think of that counting 739 00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:41.440 works by your counting discrete, separate things, not overlapping your 740 00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:45.280 things or anything. So, uh, when I talk about that, 741 00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:48.360 he's like, that's crazy, that's that's nuts. The only the 742 00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:50.320 only way you can count is by identity. 743 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:51.159 Uh. 744 00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:53.800 And he you know, cites this paper I think I 745 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:56.599 think it was by Hughes or something. But anyway, he 746 00:40:57.679 --> 00:40:58.880 was just like, oh, this is crazy. 747 00:40:58.920 --> 00:40:59.719 It was just a nuts. 748 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:06.320 But then he says, because I talk about inseparable operations, uh, 749 00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:08.760 and that the persons of the trinity have the same 750 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.639 will and they're you know all this, so he says, well, 751 00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:17.000 that's really just one person. Then that's really hunitarianism. But 752 00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:19.079 notice that if you want to say that the Father 753 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:23.280 Son and Holy Spirit are not identical, uh, but they 754 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:27.360 are just one person, then you're saying that we don't 755 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.239 count by identity. We don't we don't count persons by 756 00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:33.920 see I mean part in fact, the paper that he cites, 757 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.760 like one of the main arguments in there about you know, 758 00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:40.960 let's forget about this weird you know, relative identity and 759 00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:41.920 counting all this stuff. 760 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:42.559 Uh. 761 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:47.960 One of the premises in that paper is like, if 762 00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:50.920 there are in number of f's, and all the f's 763 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:53.039 are g's, then there have to be at least as 764 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:55.760 many g's as there are f's. So it's like, well, 765 00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:57.960 if the Father Son and Holy Spirit are three anything, 766 00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:01.239 then by that reasoning, they if they're all persons, they 767 00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:05.039 had there at least three persons. Funny is he he 768 00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:12.159 adopts like Gregorednis's view basically for counting persons. Yeah, but uh, 769 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:15.079 but not like beings or whatever. And I just point 770 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.880 out that, well, but what Craig calls a person is 771 00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.880 what Gregor Nissa calls a god like a divine person 772 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:26.719 is what he's and what Craig calls a being is 773 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:32.000 a hyposthesis. So really, so I was like, really, there's 774 00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:35.679 not actually any philosophical disagreement here. It's just a terminological thing. 775 00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:40.159 Like what what Craig calls divine persons is what Gregory 776 00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:44.719 calls gods. And Craig admits that Gregory has just one 777 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:48.920 of those. He just calls them persons instead of gods. Right, 778 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.960 So he's basically admitting that gregor Danissa has just one 779 00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:55.519 god if they have in separable operations, which is the 780 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.760 whole argument that I was making, is like in separable 781 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:02.280 operations are key to, you know, defending the view that 782 00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:07.519 there's one God. So he's just kind of incoherent about that. 783 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.480 And that was something that Muhammed a Job never really 784 00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:14.199 got into. Another thing he does that's really weird is 785 00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:17.199 he says that to me, like you have to count 786 00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:21.280 by identity, anything else is incoherent and crazy. But then 787 00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:25.599 when Craig is responding to Dale Tuggy, he says that 788 00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:28.679 people in antiquity didn't even have a concept of numerical 789 00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.639 identity like we understand it today, where you know, so 790 00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:35.239 you can't make these arguments about identity that Tuggy was making. 791 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:37.039 And I actually asked if we were in a like 792 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:40.320 a round table discussion sort of thing in November at 793 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:46.280 this Evangelical Philosophical Society and Theological Society. We got a 794 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:47.880 chance to kind of ask each other questions. And I 795 00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:50.559 asked him. I was like, so, you know, you say 796 00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:55.840 that this is how counting has to work, but people 797 00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.840 in antiquity didn't even have the concept of identity that 798 00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:02.840 would need in order to be able to count. So 799 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:05.840 it was like, so, how were people in the ancient 800 00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:08.719 world able to count? And he was just kind of like, oh, 801 00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:09.679 that's a good question. 802 00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:14.880 The typically living that was his response, Just like and 803 00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:15.960 they're like, okay. 804 00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:18.239 Well maybe he could buy the bullet and say that 805 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:19.400 they just didn't even count. 806 00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:23.480 There was no counting there, like how many dogs? 807 00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:25.880 So what his job? 808 00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:27.920 And that's that's good because a lot of people don't 809 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.280 know this area of critique when it comes to the 810 00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:35.360 terminology confusion there. What do you think is the source 811 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.679 of William Lane Craig's terminological confusion. Is it just lack 812 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:42.559 of familiarity with the patristic ideas of nature, person and 813 00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:45.639 all this kind of stuff, or is he just sort 814 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:49.000 of maybe obtuse about it because he's committed to his 815 00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:51.920 definitions or is it because he doesn't really care what 816 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.159 the church fathers said because it's a biblical perspective. I 817 00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:57.079 mean it seems like, I mean, it's just it's just 818 00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:00.639 odd to not want to use the terminology that the 819 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:02.119 church father is sort of adopted. 820 00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:09.760 Yeah, to be fair, I mean, I think that a 821 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:15.519 lot of confusion has been generated by social trinitarians, Okay, 822 00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:17.840 and I don't you know, I mean, maybe some of 823 00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:20.840 that deliberately, maybe some of it not. So you know, 824 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:24.199 he may just if you don't really dig into it, 825 00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:26.960 you know, maybe you would just sort of think, well, 826 00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:29.079 this is kind of and in fact, I mean Hasker 827 00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.559 even sort of made this point that it was just like, 828 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:35.159 surely you know about all of this, you know, debate 829 00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:37.239 about what a person is and whatever. And I was 830 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:39.360 kind of like, I know, the debate is just a 831 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:42.679 dumb debate that like there's not that's really not that art. 832 00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:46.039 But but yeah, I mean, social trinitarians are so like 833 00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:52.239 it that social trinitarianism doesn't work if you have i mean, 834 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:57.039 unless you have distinct minds and wills and whatever, it's 835 00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:02.239 not social trinitarianism anymore. Also, though, I think Craig i 836 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:05.760 forgot when he did. Is his doctorate in theology? 837 00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:07.400 I forget who. 838 00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:11.000 But he might have studied under I know he had 839 00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:13.400 studied under Pannenberg, but he might have studied under someone 840 00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:16.360 else there too. That was like a big one of 841 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:19.039 the big like early proponents of social trinity. 842 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:21.960 H okay, his education. 843 00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:26.599 But so I don't know, but that's yeah, yeah. 844 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:28.920 That's that's an interesting point. I didn't know that. Now 845 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:33.199 the next section, williamline Craig responds by saying, well, you 846 00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:35.639 have Koran or no? This is excuse me, this is 847 00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:38.679 a Job responding to I thought this was a really 848 00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:42.159 weak response. Williamline Craig said, you know, in Koran five 849 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:46.760 sixteen you have this reference to a misunderstanding of the trinity, 850 00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:50.360 and Mohammed Job's response was pretty preposterous. It was like, 851 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.320 the Trinity is not mentioned in that verse. Well, but 852 00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:57.039 the verse is about the relationship of Christ to the 853 00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:00.280 triad and whether he's divine or not, whether all has 854 00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:03.159 sons or not. So fact, the bay was not not 855 00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:05.679 about whether the word trinity do is Is this a 856 00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:09.239 reference to Trinitarian doctrines, namely the deity of the Sun, 857 00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:13.239 which is a Trinitarian doctrine so by extension. So I 858 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:15.199 thought that was a really weak response and sort of 859 00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:19.000 trying to sidestep the fact that clearly, and this is 860 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:21.360 a very powerful argument if you think about it, because remember, 861 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:24.719 if the Quran is true, if Islam is true, we 862 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:27.920 would at least expect them to get the basic doctrines 863 00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:31.679 of Christianity correct, even if they think it's false, it 864 00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:35.559 should at least have some basic presentation of well, these 865 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.440 errant you know people of the book believe that you know, 866 00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:42.360 there's three persons and once you know one essence or something. 867 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:44.519 But it never even states that correctly. In fact, I 868 00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:47.519 have iman to MEA's book over there. Even even to me, 869 00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:50.079 it doesn't state what the doctrine of the trinity is correctly. 870 00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:54.119 So that shows that the early generations of Muslims, namely 871 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:57.639 even to me for example, very important to Jake and 872 00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:02.440 momented job and the authority Muslim school there, like even 873 00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.599 even to me, it repeats this misunderstanding, showing that the 874 00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:08.800 Quran actually does misunderstand the Trinity. 875 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:11.599 Yeah I didn't. 876 00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:14.440 I mean, I'm not qualified to say a whole ton 877 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:18.719 about the Quran, but yeah, I was kind of Yeah, 878 00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:20.760 it'd be nice to have more detail, Like it was 879 00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:22.480 just kind of like, well, yeah, that's not really what 880 00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:25.760 it means. It's like, well, I mean I thought that 881 00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:28.719 that passage was sort of about the Trinity like that. 882 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:32.199 So I mean, if we're talking about the Trinity in general. 883 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.960 Then anyway, another thing with. 884 00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.079 That, I mean it's I don't know that I don't 885 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:41.519 know that Islam is committed to something like the clarity 886 00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:43.800 of scripture the way you know Protestants are, but. 887 00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:45.840 Get at least the traditional ones are. 888 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:48.920 Okay, yeah, so I mean then it's kind of like, well, 889 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:51.639 then you'd expect the Quran to. 890 00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:53.519 Be more the like. 891 00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:55.880 Well, in fact, the Koran says in multiple places that 892 00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.480 the Quran makes all things perfectly clear, and then nothing 893 00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:02.920 is unclear, although there is another verse which says some 894 00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:06.880 verses only all I knows the meaning, So I'm not 895 00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:09.039 sure how everything is clear. But then there's other verses 896 00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:10.719 that say that only all I knows the meaning of them. 897 00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:12.519 But anyway, that's a good one to bring up. Now 898 00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.400 we only Craig responds by saying, well, look, there's two 899 00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:20.159 broad schools of trinity. They're social and there's Latin. That's 900 00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:23.039 not true. But if you're in a modern I guess 901 00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:25.760 analytic product Protestant setting, you would only think that I'm 902 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:29.119 surprised he didn't mention any other models. He didn't mention 903 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:33.159 the monarchical trinitarian model. Yeah, yeah, it was kind of. 904 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:36.760 I get maybe he just feels like he doesn't understand 905 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:39.840 it or something like that. Yeah, and he mentioned Hasker 906 00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:42.559 because and this does I don't know, I kind of 907 00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.679 go back and forth on this. So in this book, 908 00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:49.480 Bill Hasker and William Lane Craig, I mean, they're both 909 00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:54.719 social trinitarians, and they I mean, according to them, they 910 00:49:54.840 --> 00:50:00.079 basically agree about everything except the eternal begetting right. So 911 00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:06.280 Hasker thinks that the eternal processions are really important to 912 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:11.199 kind of secure monotheism, although when I talk about the 913 00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:13.360 monarchy of the Father, which is basically the same thing, 914 00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:18.719 and how that's important for monotheism, he seems to like 915 00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.000 want to resist it in weird ways that I don't 916 00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:24.239 really think he needs to. But and then yeah, and 917 00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:26.639 then Craig just thinks, now they have to all be 918 00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.880 absolutely I'll say whatever. So and I'm not really sure 919 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:35.960 if they don't actually disagree more really under the surface. 920 00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:40.079 But they kind of present it that way. So, I 921 00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:41.480 mean that was kind of his his. 922 00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:45.679 I guess response to his job there was kind of like, well, 923 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:48.519 if you want to talk about how the you know, 924 00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:52.880 the fact that he rejects eternal begetting, then just look 925 00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:55.800 at Bill Hasker's model and it's basically the same thing. 926 00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:58.880 But just and Craig, I mean, he is clear that 927 00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:03.400 his model of the trinity is supposed to be like 928 00:51:03.639 --> 00:51:06.840 neutral with respect to that question. So he's kind of like, 929 00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:12.000 he personally rejects eternal begetting and procession of the spirit. 930 00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:14.840 So but he's like, but if you want to believe 931 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.480 in the eternal beginning of the sun and eternal procession 932 00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:18.199 of the spirit, you. 933 00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:19.119 Know, have ad it. 934 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:21.960 Well that to that point, this was something that I 935 00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:25.000 thought Mohammed a Job could have hammered harder, which he 936 00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:28.199 didn't really he kind of touched sort of in passing 937 00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:33.559 mentioned it. But if social trinitarianism is what Leland Craig affirms, 938 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:37.159 and his affirmation of that, as he says by his 939 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:39.880 own admission, was because of sol Scriptura and the New 940 00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:42.760 Testament attacks, why was it that no one was a 941 00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:45.679 social trinitarian until the nineteen fifties. This was the clear 942 00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:47.199 New Testament teaching. 943 00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:50.159 Yeah, I mean. 944 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:56.119 Yeah, I guess it was Martin Luther and pastor Bob 945 00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.880 from the one hundred Luther. 946 00:51:59.079 --> 00:51:59.840 I mean, does he. 947 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:04.400 People who like hit you know, the guy who like 948 00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:05.800 hid the King James Bible. 949 00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:10.000 Oh yeah, yeah, Joseph Smith found it. That Joseph Smith 950 00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:12.199 found it and prayed over it, like you know. 951 00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:16.159 I don't know Moltman or someone who you know, I 952 00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:20.320 don't know, yeah, who knows? I mean maybe it's not 953 00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:22.840 And Craig that we really out the. 954 00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:27.719 Doctrine of the truth exactly. Now, hit Job said something 955 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:31.880 I thought was odd, where he says and William and 956 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:34.480 Craig returns to that point of there being many schools 957 00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:38.480 fighting over talheed, and the Job again says, yeah, but 958 00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:40.840 we all believe God's wont which is again a deflection 959 00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:44.480 from the actual criticism. And then a Job counters by saying, 960 00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:47.119 and I guess he got this from Jake because I've 961 00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:49.760 never heard anybody say this, which is I've never heard this. 962 00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:51.719 You could please correct us if this is false. I 963 00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:55.039 would assume it's false. He thinks that the Kappadocians teach 964 00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:58.480 a social trinitarianism. That's just simply not true. And is 965 00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:00.480 there somebody who argues this where with it come from? 966 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:04.880 You said that Craig or the Job in passing said 967 00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:08.400 do you think that the Cappadocians teach social trinitarian He 968 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:11.960 says something like that, affirming that the Cappadocians teach a 969 00:53:12.039 --> 00:53:13.159 social trinitarianism. 970 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:20.320 Yeah, well so a lot of social trinitarians. 971 00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:24.920 Oh, I think a Job isn't familiar with these terms 972 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:27.519 because he's sort of just repeating what Jake's told him, 973 00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:30.599 and so he would he was probably just assuming that 974 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:33.800 this is some sort of ancient model, and that's why 975 00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:36.039 we Craig has it because he wanted to then say 976 00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:39.800 that if you believe the Cappadocian social trinitarianism, why do 977 00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:43.679 you reject eternal generation? Right? 978 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:47.000 Okay, yeah, yeah, well so a lot of social trinitarians 979 00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:51.840 have appealed to the Capitocian Okay, I see support for 980 00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:54.599 their model. So, especially early like in the eighties and stuff, 981 00:53:55.280 --> 00:53:58.599 you'll have people pointing to Gregorbanissa in particularly. 982 00:53:58.840 --> 00:53:59.840 That's where they're getting that then. 983 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:03.599 And the reason is because I think it's just that 984 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:10.039 the way at least people understood like Latin trinitarianism or 985 00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:15.880 kind of traditional Western view was kind of tantamount to modalism, 986 00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:19.760 if it wasn't just kind of a you know, kind 987 00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:22.960 of repackage modalism or something. But and it's just that 988 00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:26.920 the the capit Oceans are very clear about the distinction 989 00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:28.840 of the of the persons, and. 990 00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:29.679 They accept that. 991 00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:33.840 They'll they'll sort of run with the three man analogy, 992 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:38.519 you know, like they're kind of you know that they're 993 00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:40.159 not going to say they're three gods. I mean, it's 994 00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:42.679 not totally analogous, but they'll they'll kind of run with 995 00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.000 that for a while. And so it's kind of clear that, okay, 996 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:45.800 there's a distinction. 997 00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:47.079 And so social. 998 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:49.559 Trinitarians would say like, look, that's you know, this Greek 999 00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:52.360 tradition and we need to kind of recover that. And 1000 00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:55.159 it's there, you know, these kind of early social trinitarians 1001 00:54:55.239 --> 00:54:57.400 or something, and I think, you know, once you get 1002 00:54:57.440 --> 00:54:59.159 into the details of it. 1003 00:54:59.239 --> 00:54:59.960 It's there. 1004 00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.960 Not social critarians, but but a lot of social printarians, 1005 00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:06.119 especially early on, kind of appealed to them. 1006 00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:12.400 Next Wymlane Craig moves on. That was where he makes 1007 00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:15.000 his statement that there is no New Testament teaching about 1008 00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:17.159 the inner life of the Trinity. I thought that was odd. 1009 00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:21.119 And then there's an argument from silence, which I thought 1010 00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:23.519 was also not a very good argument, which wym lane 1011 00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:26.639 Craig says, well, I don't believe in I assume you 1012 00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:29.280 saw eternal generation there. I don't believe in eternal generation 1013 00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:33.599 because it's not taught by the post Apostolic fathers. Well, 1014 00:55:33.679 --> 00:55:36.039 that's an argument from silence. I mean, yeah, it might 1015 00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:37.719 be the case that they don't mention it, but there's 1016 00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:41.039 all kinds of things that the New Testament first century 1017 00:55:41.079 --> 00:55:43.880 post Apastolic fathers don't talk about or teach that William 1018 00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:47.320 lane Craig also holds to, for example, the New Testament 1019 00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:50.000 post as the post Avastolic Church fathers don't list the 1020 00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:52.880 canon of scripture that William lane Craig has. And so 1021 00:55:53.119 --> 00:55:55.119 why would we think then that that it has to 1022 00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:59.440 be an explicitly written affirmation to believe that this was 1023 00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:03.039 something in the post Apostolic period. So a lot of 1024 00:56:03.079 --> 00:56:04.880 Protestants do this, They'll say they'll have this sort of 1025 00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.960 arbitrary standard of well, I don't have to accept something 1026 00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:10.760 like eternal generation of the sun because it's not mentioned 1027 00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:14.960 until whatever late person. I think it's mentioned by but 1028 00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:16.760 that's really again, I don't think that's a very good 1029 00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:19.440 reason too too. And there's all kinds of things to 1030 00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:21.880 post as I've start. Fathers will talk about. 1031 00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:27.199 That Protestants believe, yeah, and I mean the you know, 1032 00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:30.639 the Canada Scripture is kind of the big like gotcha 1033 00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:36.280 because it seems you know, obviously circular and self referentially 1034 00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:39.440 and coherent if you But but yeah, there's a million 1035 00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:41.760 other things. And this is another thing that's really frustrating 1036 00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:47.400 is William Lane Craig also has this book where he's, uh, 1037 00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:56.039 basically he's he's defending like nominalism because he doesn't want 1038 00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:57.960 to say that there's like yeah, he wasn't doesn't want 1039 00:56:57.960 --> 00:56:59.559 to be a platonist and say like there's all of 1040 00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:03.119 these platonic forms or divine ideas or whatever that are 1041 00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:08.239 also eternally existent and you know that God's like dependent 1042 00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:13.320 on them for his properties or something like that. In 1043 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:16.440 that book he has a list of like early church 1044 00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:20.519 fathers talking about how you know, God is the only 1045 00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:25.960 thing that is ungenerated and say basically, so it's kind 1046 00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:27.880 of like well, in that book he's going to appeal 1047 00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:32.400 to these church fathers. Oh that you know, God is 1048 00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:34.559 the only thing that's say or whatever. So you know, 1049 00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:37.199 that's it's really it's authoritative. 1050 00:57:36.679 --> 00:57:36.840 You know. 1051 00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:39.800 There, it's like, you know, and anyway, it's really you 1052 00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:40.719 really should follow that. 1053 00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:42.400 You know, it's at least at least has some kind 1054 00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:45.239 of to it, right, But it's like, yeah, as soon 1055 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:47.159 as as soon as the church fathers go against you, 1056 00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:51.559 it's you know, well, yeah, I'm a Protestant, right. 1057 00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:53.840 And on that same point too, that's odd that he 1058 00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:56.440 would defend a kind of nominalist position. Maybe he's just 1059 00:57:56.559 --> 00:58:00.159 changed his position because I remember a talk maybe six 1060 00:58:00.199 --> 00:58:02.079 seven years ago that I listened to where he was 1061 00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:05.840 defending divine conceptualism and it was appealing to platonism and 1062 00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:10.000 platonic arguments, which if you're a nominalist, that wouldn't work anymore. 1063 00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:13.960 So in that book, I mean, he says that when 1064 00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:17.880 he sort of started that research project out, he anticipated 1065 00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:21.760 that he would end up being a conceptualist, but kind 1066 00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:25.760 of as he went through everything more he eventually decided 1067 00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:30.280 he's so he might have been a concept divine conceptualist 1068 00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:32.280 or something earlier. 1069 00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:38.880 On Okay, now, okay, next it begins to shift into 1070 00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:43.639 Now this is the part where let's see somewhere. Yeah, 1071 00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:48.800 William L. Craig thinks that there's not a specific reference 1072 00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:54.239 for eternal generation the New Testament, and that the New 1073 00:58:54.320 --> 00:58:59.079 Testament just simply teaches a very scaled down three persons, 1074 00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:04.440 one God and that eternal generation. Will Lane cred didn't 1075 00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:10.239 explicitly reply to this, but the accusation of his job 1076 00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:16.239 is that Williamin Craig thinks the eternal generation necessitates subordinationism. 1077 00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:19.320 Is that what Craig argues somewhere? 1078 00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.079 Yeah, now they out of my head. I'm not sure 1079 00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:27.679 if he does. 1080 00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:29.679 He just think it's not a New Testament doctrine, or 1081 00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:33.039 does he think that it mightn't well necessarily, I think. 1082 00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:36.599 His main his main worry is with ausaity. He thinks 1083 00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:41.599 that that to be fully divine you have to be 1084 00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:42.920 absolutely aw same. 1085 00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.159 Okay, So is that why Jake got that argument? He 1086 00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:48.360 just cribbed it from probably from Willelan Craig. 1087 00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:53.199 Yeah, yeah, Craig and Ryan Mullins also makes the same argument, 1088 00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:58.159 and Bill Hasker and Ryan Mullins have gone back and forth, 1089 00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:01.960 like y various papers, sort of back and forth about 1090 01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:06.280 whether you know a saity is required for divinity or whatever. 1091 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:11.960 But but Craig definitely that's that's I think his probably 1092 01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:14.840 main motivation. I can't recall off the top of my 1093 01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:19.280 head if he talks about subordinationism in some other respect, 1094 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:22.559 but a saiity certainly is the big issue for him. 1095 01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:26.119 Yeah, And this was the point where Muhammad a Jab 1096 01:00:26.199 --> 01:00:29.719 says that if there's clear and ordinary language that teaches 1097 01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:34.360 the Trinity, then why do you reject the traditional Christian 1098 01:00:34.440 --> 01:00:37.639 teaching which wasn't word Well, but I think that's that's 1099 01:00:37.679 --> 01:00:39.719 a fair question to ask William Lane craig. 1100 01:00:41.800 --> 01:00:46.840 So what's the how would that argument go? Like, uh, 1101 01:00:49.719 --> 01:00:51.679 just that it should be clear in the. 1102 01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:55.199 New Well, William Lane Craig as a Protestants arguing, well, look, 1103 01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:58.400 I'm just arguing the clear, scaled down New Testament doctrine 1104 01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:01.920 of the Trinity. And then Muhammed Adjab is saying, but 1105 01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:06.360 your social trinitarianism is against the you know, two thousand 1106 01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:10.000 year clear tradition of what most Christians accept as orthodoxy. 1107 01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:13.920 So more of an I guess a hermeneutical objection about 1108 01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:17.400 clear and ordinary language. But I think the job is 1109 01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:20.559 trying to score points with the just demonstrating that, look, 1110 01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:24.719 the Trinity is not coherence because supposedly it's not clear. 1111 01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:27.880 But that's actually a false equivalence, Right, something can be 1112 01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:31.440 true and not necessarily simple, and so a lot of 1113 01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:36.760 Muslims confuse simplicity with clarity or perspecuity, and those are 1114 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:39.599 not necessarily the same things. In fact, when I debated 1115 01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:42.239 with Daniel in The Jaws, the first thing Daniel said was, look, 1116 01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:46.719 Islam's true because it's simple, God's won. I was like, well, 1117 01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:48.559 but that doesn't mean that it's true, because it does 1118 01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:50.519 like a version of Rockham's razor fallacy. 1119 01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:53.519 Yeah. Now that's one of the things that really. 1120 01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:56.960 It's like a huge pet peeve of mind because I 1121 01:01:57.159 --> 01:01:59.599 you know, I teach a class on like kind of 1122 01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:02.400 critical thinking sort of, a little bit of logic, a 1123 01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:04.679 little bit of just various sort of and that's like 1124 01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:07.239 one of the big things that we talk about is 1125 01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:10.599 like when so you know, for people who don't know, like, 1126 01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:13.039 this is something that's gotten a lot of attention, just 1127 01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:18.519 like from from psychologists doing like empirical research about how 1128 01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:21.599 people reason and the accuracy of their reasoning and whatever. 1129 01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:24.960 I mean, basically the consensus is like there's kind of 1130 01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:27.719 two different systems going on in your brain at the 1131 01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:30.840 same time. So there's what they'll sometimes just call system one. 1132 01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:35.000 It's this like kind of intuitive, like fast, kind of 1133 01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:38.519 gut reaction, knee jerk sort of reaction. And then system 1134 01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:42.239 two is this like methodical, you know, conscious, deliberate going 1135 01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:46.480 through following rules and whatever. And you know the big 1136 01:02:46.599 --> 01:02:50.239 issue is just like the system one, like what intuitively 1137 01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:55.440 seems simple and obvious to us, Like that system is 1138 01:02:55.880 --> 01:03:00.239 it's it's very quick and accurate in certain contexts, and 1139 01:03:00.280 --> 01:03:02.320 then it just gives you the completely wrong answer. 1140 01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:03.320 Yes, certain others. 1141 01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:06.079 Yeah, and there's no way to know ahead of time, 1142 01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:11.039 like whether it's gonna be the accurate one or not. 1143 01:03:11.280 --> 01:03:13.880 Like it's just sort of like it gives you the 1144 01:03:13.960 --> 01:03:17.960 right results ninety nine percent of the time in cases 1145 01:03:18.039 --> 01:03:22.400 where it kind of is important to make snap judgments forever. 1146 01:03:22.840 --> 01:03:25.239 But so it's like it's one of the like this 1147 01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:27.679 is something I would I try to spend a whole 1148 01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:30.719 semester like telling students to not do this, Like just 1149 01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:36.039 because something seems intuitively obvious to you has not necessarily 1150 01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:40.440 like any relation to whether it is true or even coherent. 1151 01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:43.159 Yes. This is a key point too, because I've had 1152 01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:46.719 a lot of discussions with Thomas lately and with Muslims, 1153 01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:49.960 and I've noticed a parallel between the discussion with certain 1154 01:03:50.039 --> 01:03:54.119 Thomas and with Muslims, and the pattern is that both 1155 01:03:54.199 --> 01:03:58.840 seem to assume that, well, look, everybody knows what monotheism 1156 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:02.320 is and what divine simplicity is, and that a self 1157 01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:04.920 evident simple being has to be this, this, this, and this, 1158 01:04:05.559 --> 01:04:07.400 and then that being would also be perfect and we 1159 01:04:07.440 --> 01:04:09.440 all know that perfection includes this, this, this, and this, 1160 01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:11.880 So it's like all this metaphysical baggage that well, wait 1161 01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:14.760 a minute, how do I know that's the right content 1162 01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:18.519 for what you mean by one God? It's just all assumed. 1163 01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:21.920 We don't know that that's the case, And then if 1164 01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:24.559 you start asking them epistemic questions, it's like, well but yeah, 1165 01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:26.480 but we all know that. So it's like basically just 1166 01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:29.960 built on appeals to like peel to masses, fallacy, or 1167 01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:32.519 appeal to simplicity or something like that, none of which 1168 01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:34.519 necessarily tells us that that's the case or how we're 1169 01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:38.599 supposed to interpret what it means to be one God. 1170 01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:44.760 It's just assumed, but that brings us to the next point, 1171 01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:50.360 where William Craig says, well this the whole debate then 1172 01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:54.440 shifts about halfway through to Muhammed Jabs saying, well, you 1173 01:04:54.440 --> 01:05:01.159 believe in three wills in God? This necessitates conflict. Now 1174 01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:03.239 this was a I think this is a silly way 1175 01:05:03.239 --> 01:05:06.880 to go about the debate, because there's not necessarily anything 1176 01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:12.239 about multiple wills that necessitates opposition. He should have he 1177 01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:13.840 should have gone the route of what you say, of 1178 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:16.880 saying that, well, look, will has to be some kind 1179 01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:20.719 of property of an existing nature or being, and that 1180 01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.320 would necessitate three gods. But he doesn't go in that direction. 1181 01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:27.880 He tries to argue that somehow having three wills necessitates 1182 01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:32.400 partition in what the beings do, and it necessitates some 1183 01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:35.920 form of opposition as a potentiality, which not necessarily I 1184 01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:36.400 don't think. 1185 01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:40.840 Any referenced Scott Williams paper. So Scott's a good friend 1186 01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:42.920 of mine and he so I don't know. Maybe maybe 1187 01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:45.320 Muhammed a job didn't do a good job like articulating 1188 01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:51.639 the argument. But what Scott's argument is is if you 1189 01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:59.559 have three wills, you know, like social trinitarians want. I mean, 1190 01:05:59.800 --> 01:06:03.119 it seems like if you don't say anything else, then 1191 01:06:03.159 --> 01:06:06.280 it seems like at least there are possible worlds where 1192 01:06:07.159 --> 01:06:12.760 these three wills disagree, and you need to say something 1193 01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:16.480 about like why there wouldn't be right because you don't, 1194 01:06:16.519 --> 01:06:18.519 I mean, you know you can. It's fine to say 1195 01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:20.719 like the persons of the Trinity don't disagree and they 1196 01:06:20.760 --> 01:06:24.039 always cooperate, but but it seems weird to say they 1197 01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:27.559 could and they you know, they would get into a war. 1198 01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:32.320 Right. But this is where William Lane Craig appeals to 1199 01:06:32.440 --> 01:06:35.800 this metaphysics of perfection, which I thought was odd because 1200 01:06:35.920 --> 01:06:39.519 it's very similar to them to the Muslim appeal to perfection, 1201 01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:44.639 which shows the presubpositions of metaphysical baggage that people have, because, 1202 01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:48.039 for example, Muslim thinks that well, to be the more 1203 01:06:48.159 --> 01:06:51.440 perfect being means in some cases that Allah is only 1204 01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:55.639 strictly just one, because to have real multiplicity would mean 1205 01:06:55.719 --> 01:06:58.559 some kind of diminution or some kind of imperfection, because 1206 01:06:58.599 --> 01:07:02.000 we all know that multiplelicity means a perfect unity, or 1207 01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:06.360 excuse me, perfection truly means a perfect unity without distinction. 1208 01:07:06.519 --> 01:07:09.840 So that's a metaphysical assumption about perfection. But in other cases, 1209 01:07:10.480 --> 01:07:13.000 right even to me. It says, well, we'd all wouldn't 1210 01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:15.199 We all know that to be a more perfect being, 1211 01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:18.960 Allah has to laugh versus not laughing, because laughing is 1212 01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:21.360 more perfect than not laughing. So there's this weird metaphysical 1213 01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:24.119 assumption about perfection. Wim Lane Craig then says, well, look, 1214 01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:26.159 there are three perfect beings, so I can appeal to 1215 01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:28.760 perfection of the beings, and therefore they would never be 1216 01:07:28.800 --> 01:07:30.559 out of a court in terms of three different wills. 1217 01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:33.679 I just thought the whole course of the debate at 1218 01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:35.920 this point gets into two bad arguments here. 1219 01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:38.440 Yeah, it's. 1220 01:07:40.119 --> 01:07:44.239 So Richard Swinburne has this kind of view that although 1221 01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:47.119 he swinburn believes in the processions too, so he kind 1222 01:07:47.159 --> 01:07:50.079 of has a natural way for the father to kind 1223 01:07:50.119 --> 01:07:53.920 of have some I don't know priority in some sense, 1224 01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:57.599 but anyway. One, yeah, one way social trinitarians will respond 1225 01:07:57.679 --> 01:07:59.159 to this argument is to say, well, the. 1226 01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:01.599 Yeah, they're perfect. 1227 01:08:01.639 --> 01:08:04.679 So if they're all omniscient and they all are omni benevolent, 1228 01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:06.880 like they all know what's good and they all want 1229 01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:10.039 what's good, so they'll all kind of so number one, 1230 01:08:10.119 --> 01:08:13.960 they'll all just naturally want the good anyway, and then 1231 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.840 they know, it's not good to fight and whatever, so 1232 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:20.800 they would all want to agree and whatever. I hi 1233 01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:25.279 Jab brought up a kind of good point, but there's 1234 01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:27.239 you can go a little further with it. So he 1235 01:08:27.399 --> 01:08:30.920 just pointed out that God there are some things that 1236 01:08:31.720 --> 01:08:35.920 God wills that are He didn't really put it in 1237 01:08:36.039 --> 01:08:38.199 terms of like morally neutral, but that I think that's 1238 01:08:38.279 --> 01:08:40.560 the idea, Like they're morally neutral and they're contingent. So 1239 01:08:40.760 --> 01:08:44.680 just something like, you know, suppose there's a possible world 1240 01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:47.239 where the Father wants the sky to be blue, but 1241 01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:49.560 the sun thinks it'd be better if it was green, 1242 01:08:50.199 --> 01:08:52.359 and the Holy Spirit sort of likes red, and you 1243 01:08:52.399 --> 01:08:54.439 know they want they you know, they can't agree on 1244 01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:57.479 the colors, and they and they all have three different things, 1245 01:08:57.479 --> 01:08:59.520 so they're all kind of voting on different things. They 1246 01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:04.960 can't do you know, by democratically or something. And uh, 1247 01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:09.439 Swinburne's argument is kind of like, well, they would all 1248 01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:12.960 as perfect and good beings, you know, they would all 1249 01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:17.600 like want to resolve that disagreement peacefully, and you know 1250 01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:21.600 they'd be willing to kind of you know, defer to 1251 01:09:22.159 --> 01:09:29.479 the Father or something like that. But one one thing 1252 01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:33.359 that they didn't get into in this debate. And I've 1253 01:09:33.359 --> 01:09:35.079 heard people get talks about this and they kind of 1254 01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:39.239 it's kind of overlooked sometimes. I like this phrase something 1255 01:09:39.319 --> 01:09:44.239 people call it a Canadian standoff, as opposed to like 1256 01:09:44.279 --> 01:09:47.319 the Mexican standoff or who's gonna shoot first? But the 1257 01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:50.399 Canadian standoff quote unquote is like, you know, suppose you're 1258 01:09:50.399 --> 01:09:52.760 at the door and one person is like, oh you 1259 01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:53.600 you go first? 1260 01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:55.720 Oh no, no, no, it would right, it would be 1261 01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:56.720 an internal stem up. 1262 01:09:57.560 --> 01:09:57.760 Yeah. 1263 01:09:57.800 --> 01:10:00.359 So it's like you can be perfectly like a good 1264 01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:02.560 will and you don't want to get in a fight, 1265 01:10:02.640 --> 01:10:05.880 you know, and you're and that's not necessarily enough to 1266 01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:11.239 resolve the decision problem, like just having good will, because 1267 01:10:11.279 --> 01:10:14.600 you can be. In some cases good will can lead 1268 01:10:14.680 --> 01:10:18.319 to the standoff, right, that can't be resolved. Like if 1269 01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:20.600 one person would just be like, yeah, okay, man, I'll 1270 01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:25.640 go through, then that would resolve the issue. But but yeah, 1271 01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:29.399 it could be just precisely, maybe the father wants red, 1272 01:10:29.439 --> 01:10:31.600 the son wants green, the Holy Spirit wants blue. But 1273 01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:33.640 then everyone's like, oh, well then we need to do 1274 01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:35.000 what you want. Oh no, no, we can do we 1275 01:10:35.039 --> 01:10:36.119 can do what you want to do. Oh no, well, 1276 01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:37.600 let's do what he wants to do. Well, I want 1277 01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:39.000 to do just whatever you guys want to you know, 1278 01:10:40.439 --> 01:10:42.840 So I think I think it is a problem that, like, 1279 01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:46.279 if you're gonna say there's three distinct wills, it's just 1280 01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:52.199 not clear how how it could be not possible for 1281 01:10:52.399 --> 01:10:56.000 them to like disagree and not be able to resolve 1282 01:10:56.039 --> 01:10:58.640 that disagreement. And maybe I mean, you know, I guess 1283 01:10:58.680 --> 01:11:01.760 you could just say, like, well, luckily it turned out 1284 01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:04.560 that they didn't disagree or something, But that's kind of 1285 01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:09.720 a disappointing, unsatisfying, you know response. 1286 01:11:10.479 --> 01:11:14.640 Well, the next part waynmline Craig says that modal collapse 1287 01:11:14.680 --> 01:11:18.319 sort of makes an appearance, and williamline Craig says, yeah, well, 1288 01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:23.319 God does have I believe, contingent properties, which is odd, 1289 01:11:23.479 --> 01:11:25.640 odd language and terminology. Of course, I think he means 1290 01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:27.960 the essence entergy distinction and how we believe that, you know, 1291 01:11:28.039 --> 01:11:33.760 God has, you know, different possibilities of what he can 1292 01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:36.399 will to create or not to create, or that God 1293 01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:42.079 does different actions. But but that's odd, Yeah, odd terminology 1294 01:11:42.159 --> 01:11:45.520 is that maybe an I've never heard contingent properties. 1295 01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:52.119 Anyway, Yeah, I would just take that as he probably 1296 01:11:52.159 --> 01:11:53.439 is just thinking of proper but. 1297 01:11:55.079 --> 01:11:57.199 He says the power of creating, like to create is 1298 01:11:57.239 --> 01:11:59.279 not something that he had to do. 1299 01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:04.960 Yeah, the property of creating being a thing that has created. 1300 01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:06.439 I mean, usually, like you know. 1301 01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:08.920 Philosophers today, we'll just use the word property in a 1302 01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:11.199 very broad you know, just. 1303 01:12:11.319 --> 01:12:15.159 Cover true about something. So I think that's how he's 1304 01:12:15.239 --> 01:12:15.560 using that. 1305 01:12:17.319 --> 01:12:19.159 And then it gets into an issue. But what I'm 1306 01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:21.560 saying is that again, you know, because there's not an 1307 01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:26.720 essenceentrity distinction there. Even though will Lane Craig seems to 1308 01:12:26.760 --> 01:12:29.920 be aware of the motial collapse issue. Rather than using 1309 01:12:30.039 --> 01:12:33.680 and going to orthodox theology which resolves this question, it's 1310 01:12:33.760 --> 01:12:36.600 just another situation where well, I've got to invent sort 1311 01:12:36.640 --> 01:12:39.000 of my own you know, system or baggage or whatever. 1312 01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:41.239 I mean, it's the New Testament and the Old Testament. 1313 01:12:41.279 --> 01:12:44.520 I think, as doctor Bradshaw has shown in multiple papers, 1314 01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:46.479 that teaches the Essen Sentarti stinction. I mean, it's a 1315 01:12:46.520 --> 01:12:49.399 biblical doctrine, which so if you want to be biblicaal 1316 01:12:49.520 --> 01:12:52.000 Paul's teaching the you know, Essen Sceentnerti distinction of multiple 1317 01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:53.600 passages in the New Testament, where he talks about the 1318 01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:56.840 inner Geia working in him, uh to work with grot 1319 01:12:56.960 --> 01:12:58.640 with Christ and so forth, the power of God in 1320 01:12:58.760 --> 01:13:01.920 him doing a miss et cetera. That's all New Testament. 1321 01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:04.039 But why wouldn't we use that if we want to 1322 01:13:04.079 --> 01:13:08.039 resolve this issue of this specific point. I mean, and 1323 01:13:08.239 --> 01:13:10.359 Palomas does this, He says, you know, if you want 1324 01:13:10.399 --> 01:13:13.119 to notice the difference between essence and energy, says, look 1325 01:13:13.199 --> 01:13:16.840 to God creating and then ceasing from creating. That is 1326 01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:17.600 an example of this. 1327 01:13:19.279 --> 01:13:22.520 Yeah, yeah, I mean I think he have that apparatus, right, 1328 01:13:22.640 --> 01:13:24.720 So it's just kind of like, well, I don't know, 1329 01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:28.359 God has some necessary properties and some contingent properties. 1330 01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:28.640 Yeah. 1331 01:13:29.000 --> 01:13:31.680 But one thing that's this is another thing where I 1332 01:13:31.960 --> 01:13:35.800 get kind of confused. I mean, it's hard for you 1333 01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:41.880 to understand what his view actually is because if I mean, 1334 01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:45.880 if you're going to be anomalist, I mean, I guess 1335 01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:49.119 maybe he would just say, maybe we just have to 1336 01:13:49.159 --> 01:13:51.800 translate all of this talk about properties into talk about 1337 01:13:51.880 --> 01:13:56.479 predicates that are true about God or something, because I mean, there's. 1338 01:13:56.319 --> 01:13:59.399 Not really any properties if you're a nominalist. 1339 01:14:00.920 --> 01:14:02.279 Oh yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. 1340 01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:06.840 Which also, this is another thing that that muhammeda job 1341 01:14:06.920 --> 01:14:13.520 never brought up, which I wish that he had. So 1342 01:14:13.680 --> 01:14:16.119 Number one, I mean, even if you are a realist, 1343 01:14:16.359 --> 01:14:19.800 it's kind of a I always have this question, like 1344 01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:23.199 you've got this one soul that has three sets of 1345 01:14:23.319 --> 01:14:28.760 cognitive faculties, Like what exactly individuates the cognitive faculties? 1346 01:14:28.840 --> 01:14:31.079 Like how do you get three of them? It's not the. 1347 01:14:31.199 --> 01:14:36.720 Subject because there's only one subject, only one soul, So 1348 01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:39.760 that's not making them three. They're not like in three 1349 01:14:39.840 --> 01:14:46.560 different places spatially or something, because it's God and you 1350 01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:51.279 reject eternal relate the you know, relations of generation and processions, 1351 01:14:51.279 --> 01:14:57.279 so there's no like asymmetric relations to individuations, Like how 1352 01:14:57.399 --> 01:14:58.039 exactly do you get? 1353 01:14:58.199 --> 01:14:59.840 Yeah, what individuates? What would he say? 1354 01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:02.920 Graduays yeah, and there's no and and all. 1355 01:15:03.039 --> 01:15:04.760 I mean if you just said something like they're just 1356 01:15:04.880 --> 01:15:09.079 primitively like they just they just come from the factory 1357 01:15:09.119 --> 01:15:11.960 that way, or you know, like it's like why couldn't 1358 01:15:11.960 --> 01:15:14.720 there be more? And if there and if it's possible 1359 01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:17.159 for there to have been a fourth person of the 1360 01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:23.159 trinity and divine persons are necessary beings, then it's necessary 1361 01:15:23.960 --> 01:15:26.039 that there's four. You know what I mean, so it's 1362 01:15:26.079 --> 01:15:28.279 like if you just sort of say they're primitively individuated, 1363 01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:30.720 it's like, well, why aren't there infinitely many persons? 1364 01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:30.960 Then? 1365 01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:33.640 And I don't, I don't have any idea, And he 1366 01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:36.279 never as far as I know, he's never addressed that. 1367 01:15:36.920 --> 01:15:39.119 And then and then if you add on top of that, 1368 01:15:39.439 --> 01:15:43.279 like he wants to be as hardcore nominalists, So like 1369 01:15:44.840 --> 01:15:47.880 I would think that that what nominalists would say. You know, 1370 01:15:47.920 --> 01:15:50.840 if you're talking about a cognitive faculty or a power 1371 01:15:51.680 --> 01:15:56.239 of thinking and willing, you just translate that, Well, it's 1372 01:15:56.319 --> 01:15:59.880 just a way of saying that this soul can make 1373 01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:03.560 decisions and have thoughts. So what does it mean to 1374 01:16:03.640 --> 01:16:05.159 have three that? I mean, if you if there's no 1375 01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:08.800 there's no such thing as powers. It's just kind of 1376 01:16:08.840 --> 01:16:11.199 a metaphorical way of talking about, you know, this this 1377 01:16:11.359 --> 01:16:15.159 thing can talk or think and will, Like, what does 1378 01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:18.359 it mean you can think and you can think three 1379 01:16:19.399 --> 01:16:24.000 things or will three things? I mean, I can will 1380 01:16:24.119 --> 01:16:26.399 three different things or two different things. I can have 1381 01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:28.680 a conflicted will or something. But I'm not I don't 1382 01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:31.600 have two different faculties of willing. 1383 01:16:31.800 --> 01:16:32.199 So I don't. 1384 01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:33.920 I don't know, you know, It's like, I don't even 1385 01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:37.800 really know what the model actually is. So I wish 1386 01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:41.319 that Muhammed a Job had brought that up at some point, 1387 01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:43.000 but oh well. 1388 01:16:43.239 --> 01:16:48.479 The argument then seems to shift into parts whole situations 1389 01:16:48.520 --> 01:16:54.359 in regard to the product of three will three beings, 1390 01:16:54.399 --> 01:16:58.079 with three wills creating the world, what does one of 1391 01:16:58.159 --> 01:17:02.720 them do that the other two do not? And William 1392 01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:07.479 and Craig responds with saying, you are misunderstanding causal overdetermination. 1393 01:17:07.640 --> 01:17:10.640 I could have three matches that light at the same 1394 01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:13.640 time and there's not you know, one match that's doing 1395 01:17:13.720 --> 01:17:15.319 all the work and the other ones are doing half 1396 01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:17.720 the work or the third of the work or whatever. 1397 01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:19.840 That seemed to be a good response. Although I don't 1398 01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:23.800 believe in three wills or three independent beings, but that 1399 01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:27.840 would still seem to be a response that our trinitarian 1400 01:17:27.880 --> 01:17:29.840 model would use as well. What do you think about that? 1401 01:17:30.399 --> 01:17:33.399 Yeah, I mean, William and Craig even at that point said, 1402 01:17:33.439 --> 01:17:37.960 I mean he actually used the phrase inseparable operations or 1403 01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:41.760 the operations you know, odd extra are inseparable, and basically 1404 01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:46.159 he just said, you know, he rejects like inseparable operations 1405 01:17:46.199 --> 01:17:49.159 as a general claim. But he's like, I do believe 1406 01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:52.039 in some inseparable operations, so like, I think creation is 1407 01:17:52.079 --> 01:17:56.039 an inseparable operation. So I mean I thought, I mean, 1408 01:17:56.079 --> 01:17:59.920 it's you know, I think it's a weird view to take, 1409 01:18:00.119 --> 01:18:03.800 but yeah, I mean I think it pretty much responded 1410 01:18:03.880 --> 01:18:05.560 to his to his jobs. 1411 01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:08.560 Argument there. 1412 01:18:09.880 --> 01:18:11.800 I mean, I I get I get into that in 1413 01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:15.920 separable operations more in my in the book in response 1414 01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:20.079 to Bill Hasker, because Hasker believes in the divine processions 1415 01:18:20.119 --> 01:18:26.760 but doesn't like inseparable operations. So I don't really I'm 1416 01:18:26.840 --> 01:18:29.479 not sure what kind of metaphysics you have to have 1417 01:18:29.840 --> 01:18:35.119 to get sometimes in separable operations like you're muted, I think, 1418 01:18:35.239 --> 01:18:36.079 or at least for me. 1419 01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:38.680 Yeah, I was gonna say, like, well, what what what 1420 01:18:38.800 --> 01:18:40.439 are the one of the times that we haven't when 1421 01:18:40.479 --> 01:18:42.479 one of the times that we don't like what determines 1422 01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:47.039 the right, Well, it determines when it's uh inseparable versus separable. 1423 01:18:47.079 --> 01:18:47.840 I mean it's odd. 1424 01:18:48.079 --> 01:18:50.439 But yeah, and that and that actually comes up in 1425 01:18:50.520 --> 01:18:52.880 the thing with with Hascar and I is that's it's 1426 01:18:53.000 --> 01:18:56.600 like yeah, when, yeah, when when would you have them? 1427 01:18:56.640 --> 01:18:57.159 When would you not? 1428 01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:00.439 My I mean, anyway, I. 1429 01:19:00.600 --> 01:19:06.359 Just argue that that causal powers are rooted in an individual, 1430 01:19:06.560 --> 01:19:12.960 you know, instance of a nature, not the hypostas, And 1431 01:19:14.159 --> 01:19:16.239 that may be kind of hard to see for people 1432 01:19:16.600 --> 01:19:17.880 at first, but I think it. 1433 01:19:18.720 --> 01:19:23.039 I think, well, and that's that's that's ironically the traditional 1434 01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:26.399 Orthodox and even the Western position in the first thousand years, 1435 01:19:26.520 --> 01:19:29.640 we agree that this is why there's two wills in Christ. 1436 01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:33.039 There's two natures in Christ, there's two two operations, because 1437 01:19:33.279 --> 01:19:36.880 operations or energies signify the nature from which they proceed, 1438 01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:40.199 and so that's why there's one will in the trinity, 1439 01:19:40.479 --> 01:19:41.520 not three wills in the trinity. 1440 01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:45.960 Yeah, exactly, which is that's I mean, that's the thing. 1441 01:19:46.079 --> 01:19:47.399 So that, yeah, if you if you just think that 1442 01:19:47.560 --> 01:19:52.439 causal powers inhere in the nature primarily, then yeah, you 1443 01:19:52.600 --> 01:19:55.840 have to have inseparable operations in the trinity, and you 1444 01:19:55.960 --> 01:19:58.680 have to have two nature's and two wills and two 1445 01:19:58.840 --> 01:20:03.000 energies in the incarnation. So yeah, I think it's a 1446 01:20:03.039 --> 01:20:05.600 weird I mean, and the other I mean, your other alternative. 1447 01:20:05.680 --> 01:20:07.760 It seems like the most straightforward. If you're going to 1448 01:20:07.800 --> 01:20:12.079 reject that, you would think that you would say, okay, 1449 01:20:12.479 --> 01:20:17.039 powers just kind of directly attached to a hyposthesis then, 1450 01:20:18.680 --> 01:20:22.119 But in that case you would always have three actions. 1451 01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:27.239 I mean, there would there would always be the same. 1452 01:20:29.359 --> 01:20:31.640 Physics you have where you kind of sometimes have in 1453 01:20:31.760 --> 01:20:35.199 separable operations sometimes don't. But I think he might also 1454 01:20:35.399 --> 01:20:39.640 just kind of misunderstand how inseparable operations are supposed to work. 1455 01:20:41.640 --> 01:20:43.760 I mean, the cause a little a determination thing I 1456 01:20:43.880 --> 01:20:48.680 think works as a move in the debate for for 1457 01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:54.079 Craig to kind of defend himself, But I don't think 1458 01:20:54.159 --> 01:20:57.199 that's exactly probably the best way to think about. 1459 01:20:58.159 --> 01:21:00.600 Does this I mean you may not feel this way, 1460 01:21:00.640 --> 01:21:02.119 but I mean, does this go back to the a 1461 01:21:02.199 --> 01:21:07.760 pollinarian mistake? Because pollinarianism is basically taking a feature of 1462 01:21:08.319 --> 01:21:11.840 a property of nature, in human nature, and saying that 1463 01:21:11.960 --> 01:21:15.319 that's what the subject of the person is. It's identifying 1464 01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:19.279 the human subject with the rational soul. And so for 1465 01:21:19.359 --> 01:21:21.439 Willen Lane Craig to think in his model of what 1466 01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:24.000 a person is, at least what I've undertoo him in 1467 01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:25.880 the past, I think a person is for him that's 1468 01:21:26.039 --> 01:21:28.640 just an individual with the body and a soul. There's 1469 01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:32.680 no notion of a subject that's more than just the 1470 01:21:32.920 --> 01:21:35.960 properties of the nature. But that would be consistent with 1471 01:21:36.039 --> 01:21:39.960 the nominalism to have that reductionist model. So maybe the 1472 01:21:40.039 --> 01:21:42.720 nominalism and the reductionist model and the pollinarianism are all 1473 01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:43.159 linked here. 1474 01:21:44.680 --> 01:21:49.880 Yeah, yeah, that's actually I think that's probably right. I mean, 1475 01:21:50.039 --> 01:21:56.600 certainly it's pretty clear that there's this widespread kind of 1476 01:21:56.800 --> 01:22:01.760 assumption among a lot of philosophers and maybe evangelical theologians 1477 01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:02.199 or something. 1478 01:22:02.279 --> 01:22:04.119 But uh that that, yeah, the. 1479 01:22:06.399 --> 01:22:10.560 Cognitive faculties and wills and powers and whatever kind of 1480 01:22:10.640 --> 01:22:15.439 our hypostatic instead of natural. Right, And if that's the 1481 01:22:15.560 --> 01:22:19.000 view that you take, then yeah, you get three wills 1482 01:22:19.039 --> 01:22:23.920 in the Trinity and one will in Christ. And they 1483 01:22:24.039 --> 01:22:28.319 seem to not understand or they just don't like the 1484 01:22:28.399 --> 01:22:33.199 idea that the will is natural instead of hypostatic. So 1485 01:22:33.439 --> 01:22:35.359 and I think that's definitely what's going on with with 1486 01:22:35.520 --> 01:22:37.600 Craig and they, you know, they'll sort of associate the 1487 01:22:37.760 --> 01:22:41.439 number of wills and cognitive faculties with like that's what 1488 01:22:41.560 --> 01:22:45.079 a person is, because they they think of persons like 1489 01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:49.359 you know what we mean by a person, like a human, like. 1490 01:22:49.399 --> 01:22:53.199 A modern human individual person modern modern. 1491 01:22:53.079 --> 01:22:57.239 And they just don't yet or they or just don't care, 1492 01:22:57.960 --> 01:23:02.880 you know that that you know, hypostas is just anything concrete. 1493 01:23:04.079 --> 01:23:05.800 I mean I brought this up at one point, like, 1494 01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:08.439 you know, the Church Fathers will use it. We'll give 1495 01:23:08.520 --> 01:23:10.960 examples of hypostases besides. 1496 01:23:11.399 --> 01:23:12.319 The persons of the Trinity. 1497 01:23:12.399 --> 01:23:15.199 Yeah, don Damascus does that in Fount of Knowledge. 1498 01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:18.319 Yeah, he'll I mean they'll give like a horse or. 1499 01:23:20.720 --> 01:23:26.560 Or you know, a knife, pieces of charcoal, like like 1500 01:23:26.720 --> 01:23:30.039 you know, all of those things are hypostases. They're just individual, 1501 01:23:30.239 --> 01:23:34.680 concrete things. And I so that's one reason why. Yeah, 1502 01:23:34.680 --> 01:23:38.119 I mean, like I realized there's this big debate, you know, 1503 01:23:38.319 --> 01:23:40.960 in theological what are persons? Is it person in the 1504 01:23:41.039 --> 01:23:45.239 modern sense? But it's like, I have no idea how 1505 01:23:45.479 --> 01:23:50.000 anyone familiar at all with the primary sources could ever 1506 01:23:50.159 --> 01:23:53.039 think that the Church Fathers are talking about person in 1507 01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:56.359 like a Cartesian sense or something like, I don't think 1508 01:23:56.439 --> 01:23:59.399 the gold coin is a person in the modern sense 1509 01:23:59.479 --> 01:23:59.920 of the term. 1510 01:24:00.239 --> 01:24:03.319 Like that's just nuts, now, doctor Calil. I know he 1511 01:24:03.399 --> 01:24:05.920 wanted to call in and he had some comments on 1512 01:24:06.560 --> 01:24:10.560 the hit Job and Craig debate. Doctor Calile, do you 1513 01:24:10.600 --> 01:24:11.920 want to did you want to say anything? 1514 01:24:13.520 --> 01:24:17.359 Yeah, Hi, yeah, thanks for having me on. I just 1515 01:24:17.800 --> 01:24:18.920 I was teaching, so I just. 1516 01:24:19.000 --> 01:24:19.479 Log in now. 1517 01:24:19.560 --> 01:24:21.880 So I don't know what you guys already covered, but 1518 01:24:22.199 --> 01:24:25.880 just to what you are saying now, maybe. 1519 01:24:25.760 --> 01:24:28.039 Something that's a question for both but also yourself. So 1520 01:24:28.159 --> 01:24:32.199 I made some comments in a preview video about Craig 1521 01:24:33.319 --> 01:24:36.760 and hit Job. So one thing is, in my view, 1522 01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:39.319 if Craig is a nominalist, which. 1523 01:24:39.199 --> 01:24:41.920 He is, right, yeah, we just we just yeah, that's 1524 01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:43.239 exactly what we were covering up. 1525 01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:48.000 So then how can he affirm that Christ like has 1526 01:24:48.039 --> 01:24:50.239 a human nature of any kind? Like there's no such 1527 01:24:50.319 --> 01:24:53.600 thing as human nature under that view, Like, I don't 1528 01:24:53.640 --> 01:24:56.399 know how he can he can ascribe human nature to 1529 01:24:56.520 --> 01:25:00.479 anything right, Like for him, I don't see how his 1530 01:25:00.640 --> 01:25:04.159 incarnate Christ is genuinely human like in any meaningful sense. 1531 01:25:04.239 --> 01:25:06.399 And then I don't how can he even talk about 1532 01:25:06.920 --> 01:25:11.279 homousio homosios? Like how can you say the Father and 1533 01:25:11.359 --> 01:25:15.520 the Son are homosios if you don't like, like the 1534 01:25:15.640 --> 01:25:20.000 three divine persons, they're all bear particulars in Craig's view, right, 1535 01:25:21.239 --> 01:25:23.520 they can't as far as I'm concerned, And I haven't 1536 01:25:23.520 --> 01:25:26.279 seen anyone make this argument against him, but to me, 1537 01:25:26.399 --> 01:25:29.800 that the three divine persons are bear particulars, they can't 1538 01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:35.000 share anything. They're like, they're basically three gods. So I 1539 01:25:35.039 --> 01:25:35.880 don't know what you guys. 1540 01:25:36.600 --> 01:25:39.279 That's that's exactly where the critique was going. I'll let 1541 01:25:39.359 --> 01:25:41.520 doctor will respond, but I mean that's exactly where the 1542 01:25:41.560 --> 01:25:44.079 critique was going, was that this would lead to trotheism 1543 01:25:44.199 --> 01:25:47.640 and that the nominalism would seem to be another big stickler, 1544 01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:49.840 a big roadblock here. 1545 01:25:51.199 --> 01:25:51.399 Yeah. 1546 01:25:51.479 --> 01:25:54.399 So I think what Craig I think would do is 1547 01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:56.720 he would just say, Okay, well, when we talk about 1548 01:25:56.840 --> 01:26:01.319 you know, so and so has this nature or that nature, 1549 01:26:02.359 --> 01:26:04.439 like we just have to He's just going to kind 1550 01:26:04.479 --> 01:26:09.880 of translate that into this, X, Y and Z are 1551 01:26:10.039 --> 01:26:15.720 true about this subject. So like if this subject has 1552 01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:18.439 such and such DNA and he's like this tall and 1553 01:26:18.520 --> 01:26:20.520 this wide and ways that, you know, like all of 1554 01:26:20.560 --> 01:26:24.800 that stuff is true. However that works, but anyway, it's true. 1555 01:26:24.880 --> 01:26:28.039 So if it's just true, if all these predicates are 1556 01:26:28.119 --> 01:26:32.960 true about you, then then the predicate is human is 1557 01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:35.640 also true about you. Right, So it's just going to 1558 01:26:35.720 --> 01:26:37.319 kind of say, like for him and nature I think 1559 01:26:37.439 --> 01:26:40.720 is just kind of a definition. Right, So if X, Y, 1560 01:26:40.880 --> 01:26:43.800 Z predicates are true, then like when he. 1561 01:26:43.920 --> 01:26:46.840 Says the father is God or the Son is God. 1562 01:26:47.079 --> 01:26:49.680 It just means the Father is a part of an 1563 01:26:49.920 --> 01:26:54.479 entity called God. Like that's it, that's his, that's total. 1564 01:26:55.640 --> 01:26:57.840 I think he would want to say, like X is 1565 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:03.239 God means like something like X is all powerful, and 1566 01:27:03.800 --> 01:27:05.760 X is omni benevolent. 1567 01:27:05.560 --> 01:27:08.840 And and and and. But but didn't you just say 1568 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:11.680 you had said a minute ago that when he talks 1569 01:27:11.720 --> 01:27:15.720 about God possessing attributes or contingent properties, if he's anomalist, 1570 01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:16.680 that would be a problem. 1571 01:27:16.840 --> 01:27:24.720 So well, if if you have Craig's view is ex 1572 01:27:24.760 --> 01:27:30.199 as God means exit ex as omnipotent and whatever, that 1573 01:27:30.319 --> 01:27:34.479 would still imply under normalism that the Father's omnipotence is 1574 01:27:34.520 --> 01:27:37.439 still different from the sons, because like there can't be 1575 01:27:37.640 --> 01:27:39.760 like truly shared properties, right. 1576 01:27:41.520 --> 01:27:43.920 Yeah, I mean he might just they. 1577 01:27:45.800 --> 01:27:49.439 That's kind of a pseudo question, assuming that there's such 1578 01:27:49.479 --> 01:27:55.920 a thing as that bothered omnisis or whatever and there 1579 01:27:56.039 --> 01:27:59.760 and there really is no such thing. That's a good question. 1580 01:28:00.279 --> 01:28:01.479 But I think it's a problem. 1581 01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:04.840 There's an echo. 1582 01:28:05.279 --> 01:28:08.239 But but anyway, I do think it's a problem because 1583 01:28:08.319 --> 01:28:11.079 you do want to say things like there's one nature 1584 01:28:11.199 --> 01:28:14.680 between the person of the Trinity or Christ has two natures. 1585 01:28:17.159 --> 01:28:19.600 I guess I guess what he would say to get 1586 01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:23.920 to get two natures. He would just say, Jesus satisfies 1587 01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:27.760 all of the predicates that are required to call him human, 1588 01:28:27.960 --> 01:28:29.560 and then he satisfies all the predicates. 1589 01:28:29.600 --> 01:28:31.760 Well, I might have I might have not had the 1590 01:28:32.800 --> 01:28:34.680 unmute because I'm trying to I have to unmute if 1591 01:28:34.720 --> 01:28:36.760 he's talking, and then I have to mute when you're talking. 1592 01:28:36.840 --> 01:28:40.800 But what doctor Calil said was, wouldn't if you're a nominalist, 1593 01:28:40.880 --> 01:28:43.720 how could you have a shared after between father and 1594 01:28:43.880 --> 01:28:45.880 son as a nominalist? 1595 01:28:46.239 --> 01:28:46.279 Like? 1596 01:28:46.359 --> 01:28:48.439 How could it? Because it seems like there's obviously gotta 1597 01:28:48.439 --> 01:28:50.920 be some kind of metaphysical shared reality there. 1598 01:28:54.159 --> 01:28:59.039 Yeah, I think, well, so two things. One is. 1599 01:29:00.720 --> 01:29:02.560 And it's kind of confusing because he'll go if he's 1600 01:29:02.600 --> 01:29:04.840 talking about a nature, he's gonna be talking about generic 1601 01:29:06.680 --> 01:29:10.319 nature in a generic sense, like just you generically, you satisfy. 1602 01:29:09.920 --> 01:29:10.960 These predicates or whatever. 1603 01:29:12.439 --> 01:29:14.479 But he goes back forth because when he talks about 1604 01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:17.600 three persons in one being, like we were saying earlier, 1605 01:29:18.760 --> 01:29:21.479 what really his view amounts to is that there's one 1606 01:29:21.640 --> 01:29:24.359 hypostasis that has three minds. 1607 01:29:26.000 --> 01:29:26.680 But he kind of. 1608 01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:31.000 He just uses terminology in a weird way, so he 1609 01:29:31.439 --> 01:29:34.359 calls that one being. So it's sort of like sometimes 1610 01:29:34.439 --> 01:29:37.720 that usia is really the hyposthesis for him, and kind 1611 01:29:37.760 --> 01:29:41.159 of everything kind of gets backwards. So really, if you're 1612 01:29:41.560 --> 01:29:43.920 if you were going to accuse him of tritheism, I 1613 01:29:43.960 --> 01:29:46.920 think what he would really do is I mean, he'd 1614 01:29:47.000 --> 01:29:49.520 he'd be like, hey, my model says there's one soul, 1615 01:29:51.520 --> 01:29:55.359 so that's the one and the one concrete. I mean really, 1616 01:29:55.399 --> 01:29:58.039 I think it really boils down to like there's one 1617 01:29:58.199 --> 01:30:02.800 concrete particular, one bear particular. The real mystery of what 1618 01:30:03.039 --> 01:30:05.119 Jay and I were talking about just a few minutes 1619 01:30:05.159 --> 01:30:08.720 before you got on Khalil was the big mystery is 1620 01:30:08.800 --> 01:30:14.399 like what individuates these cognitive faculties if you're a nominalist, right, 1621 01:30:14.399 --> 01:30:18.279 because they're not real things. They're just like the fact 1622 01:30:18.399 --> 01:30:21.039 that you can think, right, or the fact that you 1623 01:30:21.159 --> 01:30:24.159 can will. So if there's just this one soul, and 1624 01:30:24.279 --> 01:30:27.319 if having a will just means it's like true that 1625 01:30:27.479 --> 01:30:31.319 you can will things, it's not really clear what it 1626 01:30:31.359 --> 01:30:35.039 could mean to say that there's three wills or three 1627 01:30:35.199 --> 01:30:35.880 cognitive facts. 1628 01:30:35.920 --> 01:30:39.319 In other words, just ambiguity about what individuates but is 1629 01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:42.720 there any route because I thought earlier when you and 1630 01:30:42.800 --> 01:30:44.479 I were to me and you doctor, but you were 1631 01:30:44.520 --> 01:30:50.079 talking about problems in nominalism for viewing God, is there 1632 01:30:50.199 --> 01:30:54.640 is there no element of critique for Wayne Lane Craig's 1633 01:30:54.720 --> 01:30:57.319 because to me, it seems like it would undercut Christology. 1634 01:30:57.399 --> 01:30:59.920 It would undercut the trinity too, if you're a hardcore 1635 01:31:00.079 --> 01:31:01.600 I didn't realize it was a hardcore nonmalist. 1636 01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:06.239 Yeah, that's that's the I don't think. I mean, so 1637 01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:10.880 certainly you the the traditional view about the doctrine of 1638 01:31:10.920 --> 01:31:18.079 the Trinity. Absolutely, you know, presupposes some metaphysical machine nature 1639 01:31:18.239 --> 01:31:21.800 and there's some you know, you have to be some 1640 01:31:21.920 --> 01:31:25.119 kind of realists about you know, property or if not 1641 01:31:25.319 --> 01:31:27.640 universals and tropes or something. But you have to have 1642 01:31:27.720 --> 01:31:31.439 that distinction there. So it's certainly not going to be 1643 01:31:31.479 --> 01:31:36.199 the orthodox view. And I really don't see how you 1644 01:31:36.479 --> 01:31:41.640 could actually have a coherent view about the Trinity if 1645 01:31:41.640 --> 01:31:42.359 you're a nominalist. 1646 01:31:42.399 --> 01:31:43.079 I mean, I don't. 1647 01:31:44.199 --> 01:31:46.720 I mean, maybe someone will come up with something, but 1648 01:31:46.800 --> 01:31:50.159 it's it's hard for me to see to see how. 1649 01:31:52.039 --> 01:31:56.159 Now Doctor coils or any other Uh, we we have 1650 01:31:56.239 --> 01:31:59.119 progressed in the debate to the point where really they 1651 01:31:59.159 --> 01:32:03.159 were just getting into almost what's that. 1652 01:32:03.960 --> 01:32:07.520 I was just saying, we're almost to their closing statements 1653 01:32:07.560 --> 01:32:08.119 from what we were doing. 1654 01:32:08.199 --> 01:32:09.399 Yeah, we had got up to the point of the 1655 01:32:09.439 --> 01:32:12.279 closing statements where I just want. 1656 01:32:13.880 --> 01:32:18.279 So in my opinion, you know, I've studied a lot 1657 01:32:18.319 --> 01:32:21.880 of the anti Trinitarian arguments that are on offer in 1658 01:32:22.039 --> 01:32:29.399 literature from major authors. I thought his job's attack was 1659 01:32:29.840 --> 01:32:33.279 very underwhelming, Like, of all the arguments he could have 1660 01:32:33.359 --> 01:32:35.319 brought against Craig or the Trinity in. 1661 01:32:35.399 --> 01:32:38.560 General, I have found he just picked the weakest ones. 1662 01:32:39.840 --> 01:32:41.560 And then I actually and you know a lot of 1663 01:32:41.640 --> 01:32:46.000 people online like Muslim sort of cheerleaders, and I understand 1664 01:32:46.039 --> 01:32:46.880 why they cheerlead. 1665 01:32:46.920 --> 01:32:48.720 They're like, oh, no, like this was so good and 1666 01:32:48.800 --> 01:32:49.479 blah blah blah. 1667 01:32:49.479 --> 01:32:51.840 But then I actually talked to three Muslim philosophers and 1668 01:32:51.880 --> 01:32:54.439 religion I'm not going to say who, and I was like, guys, 1669 01:32:54.520 --> 01:32:56.479 am I the only one who thought this was underwhelming, 1670 01:32:56.520 --> 01:32:58.399 And they're like, no, it was underwhelming. 1671 01:32:59.159 --> 01:33:03.279 So what did you think of the hit jobs like 1672 01:33:04.520 --> 01:33:05.600 attack arguments? 1673 01:33:05.880 --> 01:33:08.600 Well, before you got here, we had basically agreed that 1674 01:33:09.000 --> 01:33:11.239 there were several places where he could have brought really 1675 01:33:11.279 --> 01:33:14.079 stronger points. He hit on a couple strong points and 1676 01:33:14.119 --> 01:33:17.279 then kind of blew past them, so he really didn't 1677 01:33:18.199 --> 01:33:21.640 Both sides were kind of underwhelming, was my assessment. 1678 01:33:22.840 --> 01:33:27.680 Yeah, that's exactly what I's what I had thought. 1679 01:33:28.039 --> 01:33:29.199 And yeah, agreed like I thought. 1680 01:33:29.239 --> 01:33:30.920 I mean, I was really excited for it because I 1681 01:33:31.039 --> 01:33:34.720 was like, I mean, there's a million criticisms that I 1682 01:33:34.760 --> 01:33:38.119 would like to make about William and Craig's views on 1683 01:33:38.199 --> 01:33:39.880 the Trinity. And I was just like, oh, this will 1684 01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:42.760 be pretty exciting because he's this fantastic debater and he's 1685 01:33:42.760 --> 01:33:45.079 a really smart guy, but this is like, I think, 1686 01:33:45.199 --> 01:33:49.319 his weakest subject. And I was really, I mean interested 1687 01:33:49.399 --> 01:33:51.199 to just see, like, well, how's this going to go? 1688 01:33:52.039 --> 01:33:53.960 And yeah, there were so many things I thought, you 1689 01:33:54.560 --> 01:33:58.039 so many places Muhammedi job could have taken it that 1690 01:33:58.159 --> 01:34:01.520 he just didn't. And one of them was this issue 1691 01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:04.039 like how do you individuate these cognitive faculties? 1692 01:34:04.159 --> 01:34:06.359 Like what how do you even get those? And he 1693 01:34:06.520 --> 01:34:07.720 never raised that. 1694 01:34:08.159 --> 01:34:10.520 He didn't he didn't even really, I mean, Jaye and 1695 01:34:10.520 --> 01:34:13.159 I were talking about like, I don't think he really 1696 01:34:13.319 --> 01:34:16.680 even I guess a couple of times he mentioned tri theism, 1697 01:34:16.760 --> 01:34:18.760 but like I would have thought that would have been 1698 01:34:19.000 --> 01:34:19.560 that would. 1699 01:34:19.359 --> 01:34:22.720 Have been really if he had hammered whining Craig on 1700 01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:29.439 tri theism, that would have been really yeah, hardcore, But. 1701 01:34:29.479 --> 01:34:30.680 Yeah, I thought there was a lot of stuff he 1702 01:34:30.720 --> 01:34:32.760 could have said that he didn't. And also one thing 1703 01:34:32.840 --> 01:34:35.359 I Khalil before you got on here, that I was 1704 01:34:35.680 --> 01:34:38.880 saying to Jay was like I just felt like in 1705 01:34:38.960 --> 01:34:42.279 a lot of the arguments that Muhammed a Jab did give, 1706 01:34:42.560 --> 01:34:47.159 like he never really fully articulated like where he's trying 1707 01:34:47.239 --> 01:34:49.640 to go with that argument, Like he spent a whole 1708 01:34:49.680 --> 01:34:51.840 bunch of time talking about how Craig is a heretic 1709 01:34:51.920 --> 01:34:55.199 and his views not really mainstream. But it's like, okay, 1710 01:34:55.279 --> 01:34:58.920 but tell me where that's how that's pertinent, Like I 1711 01:34:59.119 --> 01:35:01.680 just make it explicit, like what do you you know? 1712 01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:04.960 Why is that showing that the doctor the Trinity is incoherent? 1713 01:35:05.039 --> 01:35:08.039 And he didn't really kind of connect the dots on 1714 01:35:08.399 --> 01:35:10.279 a lot of the a lot of his arguments. 1715 01:35:12.840 --> 01:35:15.960 Any thoughts on thoughts on the closing statement or anything 1716 01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:16.840 else that comes to mind. 1717 01:35:20.039 --> 01:35:21.319 Did Khilie already get offer? 1718 01:35:21.680 --> 01:35:23.000 Are you still there? Did you want to talk to 1719 01:35:23.039 --> 01:35:23.560 doctor Blow? 1720 01:35:28.600 --> 01:35:28.920 Maybe not? 1721 01:35:29.159 --> 01:35:33.239 Maybe he's gone the sort of autopositions that Craig have 1722 01:35:35.920 --> 01:35:41.399 that doesn't contribute towards the thesis that the Trinity is incoherent. 1723 01:35:41.560 --> 01:35:42.000 It doesn't. 1724 01:35:42.119 --> 01:35:46.439 However, I'll tell you why he did it. So he 1725 01:35:46.640 --> 01:35:48.840 did it as a showman. 1726 01:35:49.000 --> 01:35:51.720 He he did that. He started with that. Again. 1727 01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:53.680 I don't think it's a smart thing, but like he 1728 01:35:53.800 --> 01:35:56.800 did it for showmanship, because he wanted to get the 1729 01:35:56.920 --> 01:35:58.840 audience on his side, right. 1730 01:35:58.960 --> 01:36:01.159 He wanted all of you guys watching. 1731 01:36:00.920 --> 01:36:03.600 To be like wow, like why we shouldn't support this guy? 1732 01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:06.960 And then what he wanted is he wanted some clippable 1733 01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:07.840 moment moments. 1734 01:36:10.560 --> 01:36:12.560 Jake clipped it up. He clipped it up. 1735 01:36:12.680 --> 01:36:14.199 So this is just this. 1736 01:36:14.600 --> 01:36:16.159 I mean, you know, they do this to everybody. 1737 01:36:17.119 --> 01:36:18.239 They tried to do it to you. 1738 01:36:18.520 --> 01:36:20.640 They try to do it to everyone. They don't usually 1739 01:36:20.720 --> 01:36:23.760 succeed when they do it. But that's all it was. 1740 01:36:25.880 --> 01:36:30.520 But I do think I would be interested personally. I 1741 01:36:30.720 --> 01:36:35.560 have not actually seen a good debate between a Muslim 1742 01:36:35.640 --> 01:36:39.159 and a Christian where they act where there's like a 1743 01:36:39.279 --> 01:36:43.800 proper sort of more traditional Trinity on offer and they 1744 01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:46.479 actually get into the metaphysics of this stuff. I have 1745 01:36:46.640 --> 01:36:49.279 not seen a debate usually they're just arguing about scriptures 1746 01:36:49.560 --> 01:36:50.399 or this, that and the other. 1747 01:36:52.520 --> 01:36:56.680 Yeah, which that's like I was hoping that this would 1748 01:36:57.239 --> 01:37:00.960 get into that because you know, you would expect that 1749 01:37:01.039 --> 01:37:02.000 it it could have. 1750 01:37:03.159 --> 01:37:06.880 Now anything on the closing statements. Uh, we've come up 1751 01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:10.279 to that point there. Overall, everybody seems to be on 1752 01:37:10.319 --> 01:37:13.000 the same page. It was a pretty underwhelming discussion. It's 1753 01:37:13.079 --> 01:37:15.479 kind of short. Yeah, it was a little too short too. 1754 01:37:15.520 --> 01:37:18.880 It was only one hour. But yeah, final thoughts on 1755 01:37:19.039 --> 01:37:19.640 the debate. 1756 01:37:23.239 --> 01:37:27.760 So yeah, at the very end, Craig, I guess, you know, 1757 01:37:27.960 --> 01:37:30.119 I guess he did go full preacher. 1758 01:37:29.880 --> 01:37:32.399 Mode at the I was, I was like an alter 1759 01:37:32.560 --> 01:37:33.279 call at the end there. 1760 01:37:33.680 --> 01:37:37.039 Yeah, Muhammed a job kind of you know, criticize him for. 1761 01:37:37.199 --> 01:37:39.800 But and at first, I mean I was kind of like, ah, dude, 1762 01:37:39.920 --> 01:37:40.319 you know this. 1763 01:37:40.560 --> 01:37:40.880 I don't know. 1764 01:37:40.960 --> 01:37:43.119 I mean, I was a little bit like, come on, 1765 01:37:43.279 --> 01:37:45.920 I give a real closing statement. I was kind of like, well, okay, whatever, 1766 01:37:45.960 --> 01:37:47.640 that's what he's gonna do. But then I had thought 1767 01:37:47.640 --> 01:37:49.600 about it, and I was like, you know, actually I 1768 01:37:49.720 --> 01:37:51.720 kind of respect William Lane Craig for. 1769 01:37:52.560 --> 01:37:54.000 For doing that, Like you know what I mean, Like, 1770 01:37:54.119 --> 01:37:57.840 it's that's that he you know, he's. 1771 01:37:57.680 --> 01:37:59.640 A philosopher, but I mean everything he's done, he kind 1772 01:37:59.640 --> 01:38:01.760 of sees is like a ministry and whatever. I was like, 1773 01:38:01.840 --> 01:38:04.800 that's that's actually kind of cool. And I was actually 1774 01:38:05.479 --> 01:38:06.760 and then I thought about it, and I was like, 1775 01:38:06.880 --> 01:38:09.479 you know, I sort of felt like Muhammed hi Job 1776 01:38:09.680 --> 01:38:13.760 actually was sort of in preacher mode through the entire thing, 1777 01:38:14.720 --> 01:38:16.600 you know what I mean, like like because a lot 1778 01:38:16.640 --> 01:38:19.720 of it was him just like being really boisterous and like, 1779 01:38:19.800 --> 01:38:21.680 oh this is I will show you this is this 1780 01:38:21.760 --> 01:38:25.760 is incoherence. Yeah, right, irrefutable evidence, and like I mean, 1781 01:38:25.840 --> 01:38:30.600 he was sort of being like Southern Baptist preacher slash 1782 01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:31.520 Islamic and. 1783 01:38:31.560 --> 01:38:34.399 Mom like the whole way through. 1784 01:38:34.479 --> 01:38:37.399 And I was like, ah, why are you criticizing him 1785 01:38:37.479 --> 01:38:40.720 for I don't know, I was just a little I 1786 01:38:41.079 --> 01:38:44.920 found it a little off putting. But and yeah, his 1787 01:38:45.119 --> 01:38:50.520 jobs like last yeah, his his final statement was just 1788 01:38:52.600 --> 01:38:55.039 I mean just not he just said a bunch of 1789 01:38:55.079 --> 01:38:57.840 stuff was just not the case. Like you know, Craig 1790 01:38:57.960 --> 01:39:02.840 is retreated from the debate. Uh, you know, we're talking 1791 01:39:02.840 --> 01:39:05.199 about the resurrection and blah blah blah, it's not relevant. 1792 01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:06.840 They we've both you. 1793 01:39:06.840 --> 01:39:12.439 Know, dismantled a quinas together and you know, blah blah blah, 1794 01:39:12.680 --> 01:39:15.039 and it I mean, all that stuff is like, I mean, 1795 01:39:15.119 --> 01:39:17.760 they didn't dismantle anything, they just agreed not to talk 1796 01:39:17.800 --> 01:39:19.439 about it because they just kind of agreed that that 1797 01:39:19.640 --> 01:39:20.279 they didn't. 1798 01:39:20.079 --> 01:39:20.840 Think that was true. 1799 01:39:20.920 --> 01:39:22.600 I mean, it would sort of be like if you know, 1800 01:39:24.399 --> 01:39:28.760 if I debated a Protestant or something and we were like, well, 1801 01:39:28.800 --> 01:39:31.640 let's just let's just agree at the outset that Islam 1802 01:39:31.760 --> 01:39:33.319 is false and then we'll go on and have our 1803 01:39:33.359 --> 01:39:35.680 little Christian debate or so, and it's like, well, we 1804 01:39:35.880 --> 01:39:38.279 just demolished is like, no, you didn't you just agree 1805 01:39:38.640 --> 01:39:41.800 talk about that because we both I mean, that's you know, 1806 01:39:41.840 --> 01:39:46.520 it's just so ridiculous. But and yeah, I mean, and 1807 01:39:46.800 --> 01:39:48.920 I mean they didn't really establish anything. And then he 1808 01:39:49.079 --> 01:39:51.319 ended with another one of these like the Trinity is 1809 01:39:51.399 --> 01:39:53.800 complicated things and that's. 1810 01:39:55.399 --> 01:39:56.600 Yeah, that just drives me nuts. 1811 01:39:56.640 --> 01:39:59.319 So like earlier I was saying, I don't know if 1812 01:39:59.359 --> 01:40:02.199 Khalil's still but anyway to you J I was saying, like, 1813 01:40:02.279 --> 01:40:04.960 you know, that's this thing I teach people in critical 1814 01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:08.880 thinking classes, like just because something seems simple and intuitive 1815 01:40:08.920 --> 01:40:11.760 and obvious, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going. 1816 01:40:11.760 --> 01:40:12.199 To be true. 1817 01:40:12.479 --> 01:40:12.600 Right. 1818 01:40:13.399 --> 01:40:16.640 The other thing that I really dislike about that, actually, 1819 01:40:16.640 --> 01:40:20.960 if Khalil is on, maybe maybe he can respond to this, 1820 01:40:21.119 --> 01:40:27.680 because I think that is a horrible long term strategy 1821 01:40:28.119 --> 01:40:32.439 for Muslim apologists because what it what it comes across 1822 01:40:32.600 --> 01:40:37.319 as it comes across as these guys saying you should 1823 01:40:37.359 --> 01:40:41.840 be Muslim because it's easier to be dumb if you're Muslim, 1824 01:40:43.720 --> 01:40:46.000 which is not a good look for Islam number one 1825 01:40:46.159 --> 01:40:50.199 and number two, Like in the long run, because I've 1826 01:40:50.239 --> 01:40:53.039 said this about you, I shouldn't say, but I've said 1827 01:40:53.039 --> 01:40:56.079 this about Protestanism for a long but like evangelical kind 1828 01:40:56.119 --> 01:40:59.880 of fundamentalist Protestantism for a long time, is like it 1829 01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:03.199 leads this it's a problem if you have some approach 1830 01:41:03.279 --> 01:41:06.920 that leads to brain drain. And what happens is like 1831 01:41:07.039 --> 01:41:09.279 if you've got this approach like here, I'm gonna attack 1832 01:41:09.359 --> 01:41:14.279 the Trinity with arguments that are not that great, and 1833 01:41:14.439 --> 01:41:16.560 so smart people are gonna look at it and be 1834 01:41:16.720 --> 01:41:20.399 like nah, right, and dumb people are gonna look at 1835 01:41:20.399 --> 01:41:22.359 it and be like, oh man, this guy seems really 1836 01:41:22.399 --> 01:41:26.600 confident and whatever. Right, So like it's the approach they're 1837 01:41:26.680 --> 01:41:34.399 taking does nothing to attract or retain intelligent people, and 1838 01:41:34.640 --> 01:41:40.640 it only functions to retain and maybe attract dumb people basically. 1839 01:41:41.239 --> 01:41:43.680 And what's and what that means is like over time, 1840 01:41:44.039 --> 01:41:46.600 you're going to have brain drain, like all the smart 1841 01:41:46.640 --> 01:41:48.760 people are going to go somewhere else, all the dumb 1842 01:41:48.800 --> 01:41:51.920 people come into your camp. And then that's just like 1843 01:41:52.079 --> 01:41:54.880 this that just feeds into so then you then your 1844 01:41:54.960 --> 01:42:00.439 next generation of apologists are all morons. You're gonna being 1845 01:42:00.640 --> 01:42:04.680 unwittingly right like, and it's it's, yeah, just a really 1846 01:42:04.720 --> 01:42:06.039 bad approach. 1847 01:42:06.960 --> 01:42:08.800 Doctor Cali, anything you want to sound out. 1848 01:42:10.159 --> 01:42:12.159 Yeah, but come on, bow, Islam is so simple. 1849 01:42:12.239 --> 01:42:14.359 There's only one God. And you know, you guys have 1850 01:42:14.439 --> 01:42:18.079 a hyposthesis and Usia all this stuff. 1851 01:42:18.600 --> 01:42:21.199 I was a common man on the supposed. 1852 01:42:20.840 --> 01:42:22.039 To worship Usia. 1853 01:42:22.199 --> 01:42:22.359 You know. 1854 01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:29.199 You're right, Yeah, just sign to sign up here, give 1855 01:42:29.239 --> 01:42:32.399 me your email address. Please make a donation at Sapiens Institute. 1856 01:42:32.439 --> 01:42:32.600 You know. 1857 01:42:32.960 --> 01:42:35.680 Yeah, Well, the the Mormons say that if I pray, 1858 01:42:35.720 --> 01:42:38.600 I'll feel a burning bosom and burning my bosom, so 1859 01:42:38.720 --> 01:42:41.399 that that seems pretty simple to me. So I guess 1860 01:42:41.439 --> 01:42:46.199 Mormonism is true. But thank you for that. Uh uh, 1861 01:42:46.560 --> 01:42:48.560 we got some super chat. Somebody wants to ask that 1862 01:42:48.600 --> 01:42:50.720 Doctor Bow will have to go soon. Uh, thank you 1863 01:42:50.760 --> 01:42:52.560 for joining us, Doctor Coalili. You're welcome to stay if 1864 01:42:52.560 --> 01:42:54.960 you want. If anybody wants to call in and ask 1865 01:42:55.039 --> 01:42:57.199 a couple of questions, you can. We have a few minutes. 1866 01:42:57.680 --> 01:42:59.960 I don't want to stop doctor Bow from any other comments. 1867 01:43:00.039 --> 01:43:02.439 Some of the debate if the only thing. 1868 01:43:03.920 --> 01:43:07.439 Is another thing that I found kind of just obnoxious. 1869 01:43:07.760 --> 01:43:13.600 Was after that, after the closing statements, Cameron Bertuzzi was like, 1870 01:43:13.760 --> 01:43:16.279 you know, let's end with you know, I want to 1871 01:43:16.399 --> 01:43:18.920 end by you know, why don't you say one thing 1872 01:43:19.039 --> 01:43:21.560 that you like about the other person's view, you know, 1873 01:43:22.159 --> 01:43:24.039 And like Craig was genuine about it. He's like, you know, 1874 01:43:24.079 --> 01:43:27.279 I like monotheism and the denial of divine simplicity that 1875 01:43:27.399 --> 01:43:29.119 you had. You know, like there's lots of stuff about 1876 01:43:29.199 --> 01:43:33.000 Islam that you know, Christians agree with and like, and 1877 01:43:33.239 --> 01:43:35.159 so he was kind of a genuine, you know response, 1878 01:43:35.239 --> 01:43:38.000 and then Muhammed a job just like took it as 1879 01:43:38.000 --> 01:43:40.279 an opportunity to take another dig. 1880 01:43:40.840 --> 01:43:41.000 You know. 1881 01:43:41.039 --> 01:43:43.039 It was just kind of like, well, you know, he's like, 1882 01:43:43.119 --> 01:43:45.640 I like Craig William Lane Craig personally, and he's just like, 1883 01:43:45.680 --> 01:43:49.520 I like his bravery in denying the eternal generation, and 1884 01:43:49.720 --> 01:43:53.239 you know, like it's kind of like, dude, come on, 1885 01:43:53.479 --> 01:43:57.039 like just just you know, say something nice. 1886 01:43:57.119 --> 01:44:02.079 That was the one that anyway, I'm. 1887 01:44:02.000 --> 01:44:07.319 Just curious who's the first Christian to deny the generation. 1888 01:44:07.039 --> 01:44:07.520 Of the sun? 1889 01:44:09.800 --> 01:44:12.960 As well, as far as I know, it is from 1890 01:44:13.000 --> 01:44:17.359 an Alexander role in sixteen eighty nine, which actually. 1891 01:44:18.800 --> 01:44:21.920 You're cutting out, doctor bo. Could you say that again? Oh? 1892 01:44:22.159 --> 01:44:27.960 Sorry, So Muhammada job actually mentioned in the debate Hermann 1893 01:44:28.000 --> 01:44:32.439 Alexander role in sixteen eighty nine. As far as I know, 1894 01:44:32.600 --> 01:44:36.319 that is the first person to like explicitly reject it. 1895 01:44:36.399 --> 01:44:38.680 And I'm pretty sure that he got that from Jake, 1896 01:44:38.760 --> 01:44:41.840 and Jake got that from me, because. 1897 01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:44.039 I don't know anyone else who you know, is made 1898 01:44:44.079 --> 01:44:44.920 much out of that. 1899 01:44:47.039 --> 01:44:55.720 So are you saying, second, he said, are you saying 1900 01:44:55.720 --> 01:45:00.159 that you prepared Muhammed a job for this debate? Yeah? Yeah, I. 1901 01:45:01.760 --> 01:45:04.800 Mean I guess it indirectly by just saying stuff and 1902 01:45:05.439 --> 01:45:09.439 Jake sort of copies and tape indirectly, I did. 1903 01:45:11.399 --> 01:45:13.880 Lily Secure says for three dollars, how would you respond? 1904 01:45:13.920 --> 01:45:16.640 To the powerful chronic argument against the Trinity that Jesus 1905 01:45:16.680 --> 01:45:20.640 and Mary eight food. Don't you see the signs are clear? Well, yeah, 1906 01:45:20.720 --> 01:45:23.960 that's a joke, super Chad, I think that's a bad argument. Anonymous, 1907 01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:27.000 ten dollars, God plus the One Holy Catholic Orthodox Church, 1908 01:45:27.039 --> 01:45:29.800 thank you for your content and thank you for no 1909 01:45:29.920 --> 01:45:34.039 compromise on orthodoxy. A milion assentic ten dollars. Thank you 1910 01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:36.760 Jay and doctor Bo for this theological discussion of guidance. 1911 01:45:37.199 --> 01:45:40.279 Emilion again for ten dollars. Can you politely ask doctor 1912 01:45:40.359 --> 01:45:43.279 bolt Bo, when are you going to create a YouTube 1913 01:45:43.359 --> 01:45:47.159 channel and allow us to follow your work? 1914 01:45:49.920 --> 01:45:53.439 Well, you can follow my work. I have most I 1915 01:45:53.479 --> 01:45:56.000 think I have everything that I've published except for this 1916 01:45:56.119 --> 01:46:01.640 book on my website and most or all of my 1917 01:46:02.560 --> 01:46:04.319 YouTube appearances and stuff on it. 1918 01:46:04.920 --> 01:46:06.199 I mean, I've thought about doing. 1919 01:46:06.079 --> 01:46:10.319 Some kind of YouTube like interview kind of series or something, 1920 01:46:10.399 --> 01:46:14.520 but I would almost have to have someone else who 1921 01:46:14.760 --> 01:46:17.159 would manage all the technical stuff, because. 1922 01:46:16.880 --> 01:46:19.960 It's yeah, it's it's its own it's a hassle, it's 1923 01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:22.760 its own job, for sure. Anonymous, five dollars. Holly Orthodoxy 1924 01:46:22.840 --> 01:46:25.039 is true? You think, Anonymous, anybody else want to call 1925 01:46:25.119 --> 01:46:27.279 in or any other comments, doctor Kalil, anything else. I 1926 01:46:27.319 --> 01:46:30.239 don't see anybody who wants to If you want to 1927 01:46:30.800 --> 01:46:32.680 request to speak, just hit the request to speak button 1928 01:46:32.680 --> 01:46:41.359 and I'll bring you up. Nobody else. All right, Well, 1929 01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:44.119 we will look for that book when it's out, doctor Bou. 1930 01:46:44.159 --> 01:46:46.479 Appreciate you coming back on and thank you for doing 1931 01:46:46.520 --> 01:46:50.119 the debate review. Yeah, let's when the book comes out. 1932 01:46:50.439 --> 01:46:52.640 Come back and we'll hear somebody wants to ask a question, 1933 01:46:52.760 --> 01:46:55.479 So let's see what MKG has a question. 1934 01:46:55.560 --> 01:47:00.520 Go ahead, man, yes, hi, thanks ring me out. 1935 01:47:00.600 --> 01:47:04.520 Last second, I had a question regarding the last thing 1936 01:47:04.600 --> 01:47:09.239 he gets touched on. Regarding the fact that Islam's claim 1937 01:47:09.319 --> 01:47:13.399 of simplicity and trinity being complex and you guys saying 1938 01:47:13.479 --> 01:47:17.600 that it attracts dumb people and all that, I think 1939 01:47:17.680 --> 01:47:22.159 that's a still important issue of the average person. I 1940 01:47:22.279 --> 01:47:26.000 know Khalio kind of threw it as like a throwaway comment, 1941 01:47:26.159 --> 01:47:31.560 but the fact that Islam attracts common people with that phrase, 1942 01:47:31.640 --> 01:47:35.079 people like Sneako and stuff like that. I'm wondering what 1943 01:47:35.800 --> 01:47:38.800 you think the best, because I do agree from like 1944 01:47:40.399 --> 01:47:44.239 the smart people perspective, that's where it kind of falls short. 1945 01:47:44.439 --> 01:47:47.399 But from the average side of like if we were 1946 01:47:47.520 --> 01:47:52.159 to see chiosks of religion basically Christianity and Islam, and 1947 01:47:52.199 --> 01:47:55.479 then the common man would go and ask each person 1948 01:47:56.640 --> 01:47:58.479 why this is a good thing or why this is 1949 01:47:58.520 --> 01:48:03.439 the religion of truth? Basically the one phrase that each 1950 01:48:03.479 --> 01:48:06.439 one would use like a their thesis statement. I think 1951 01:48:06.640 --> 01:48:11.119 Islam's case to the common person might be more appealing. 1952 01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:16.840 I'm just wondering, even though I agree with the monarchical trinity, 1953 01:48:17.359 --> 01:48:20.720 I'm wondering, what do you think the counter would be 1954 01:48:21.119 --> 01:48:22.279 from an orthodox Christian? 1955 01:48:22.640 --> 01:48:24.319 What would Yeah, what would you say to somebody who says, well, 1956 01:48:24.359 --> 01:48:26.880 why wouldn't we think that you know it's true because 1957 01:48:26.960 --> 01:48:28.600 you know it's simple. How do you convey that to 1958 01:48:28.680 --> 01:48:30.560 somebody who's sort of the common man or whatever? 1959 01:48:31.439 --> 01:48:36.479 Yeah, I think the conclusion point of like why would 1960 01:48:37.359 --> 01:48:40.720 God make the religion for all people complicated? 1961 01:48:40.760 --> 01:48:43.000 I think that's something that a Muslim would. 1962 01:48:42.840 --> 01:48:48.960 Say, Yeah, well, I mean to that, I would just say, 1963 01:48:49.039 --> 01:48:52.039 it's not like God is making I mean, it's not 1964 01:48:52.199 --> 01:48:55.720 like a religion is God just like makes up right, 1965 01:48:55.800 --> 01:48:59.199 It's it's whatever's actually true, So it's not a God 1966 01:48:59.239 --> 01:49:03.039 could just sort of well, I'm going to make reality 1967 01:49:03.359 --> 01:49:05.520 you know, different or something like that. But I do 1968 01:49:05.680 --> 01:49:09.840 think that you raise it an interesting point because this 1969 01:49:10.039 --> 01:49:12.399 is something that I realized when I was doing my 1970 01:49:12.479 --> 01:49:15.199 dissertation and going through Gregory of Nissa's Letter to a 1971 01:49:15.239 --> 01:49:19.640 Blabyous and realizing like the way people have had it 1972 01:49:19.760 --> 01:49:23.279 such a hard time kind of reading and interpreting that 1973 01:49:23.479 --> 01:49:28.359 text because they didn't realize that the way Gregory of 1974 01:49:28.479 --> 01:49:32.319 Nissa himself is thinking about it is he's thinking, who 1975 01:49:32.359 --> 01:49:35.840 are the different audiences that we are talking to, and 1976 01:49:36.359 --> 01:49:39.479 how do we give a response to each of these 1977 01:49:39.560 --> 01:49:43.279 audiences that will satisfy each one. And he gives this 1978 01:49:43.439 --> 01:49:46.319 first argument or this response where he says, well, if 1979 01:49:46.359 --> 01:49:49.600 you're talking to simple minded people who are just kind 1980 01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:55.119 of straightforward and you're just speaking offhand or whatever he says, 1981 01:49:55.159 --> 01:49:57.560 you know, I would just say, well, you know, our 1982 01:49:57.640 --> 01:50:03.159 religion is it's not like polytheistic like the pagan Greeks, 1983 01:50:03.279 --> 01:50:06.800 but it's not this like unitarian view like the Jews, 1984 01:50:07.399 --> 01:50:10.000 and we have this like middle way between, you know, 1985 01:50:10.159 --> 01:50:14.960 between the two. And then he just immediately is like, 1986 01:50:15.039 --> 01:50:17.000 of course that doesn't really answer the question, Like that 1987 01:50:17.000 --> 01:50:19.760 doesn't solve anything. And so people have looked at that 1988 01:50:19.800 --> 01:50:21.239 and like, well, why does he even say that, you know, 1989 01:50:21.319 --> 01:50:23.079 what's he what's doing? And what I realized is he 1990 01:50:23.199 --> 01:50:26.760 what he really is thinking is he's he's actually got 1991 01:50:26.840 --> 01:50:29.319 three audiences in mind, and he's he's really giving a 1992 01:50:29.359 --> 01:50:31.600 response to a bishop, and he's thinking, like, well, in 1993 01:50:31.680 --> 01:50:34.760 a pastoral sort of way, what do we say? And 1994 01:50:34.880 --> 01:50:38.520 so he does acknowledge, like, yeah, you've got to You've 1995 01:50:38.560 --> 01:50:42.319 got to have a response for the common man. It's 1996 01:50:42.439 --> 01:50:44.640 just that the response to the common man needs to 1997 01:50:44.800 --> 01:50:50.199 be something simple, and it might not really solve, you know, 1998 01:50:50.319 --> 01:50:52.079 fully really solve the issue. 1999 01:50:52.159 --> 01:51:04.880 But we lost him for a second. He'll be back 2000 01:51:04.960 --> 01:51:08.760 just one second. We lost you for a second. But 2001 01:51:10.159 --> 01:51:11.840 we lost you for a second. There you were saying, 2002 01:51:11.880 --> 01:51:14.560 the last thing you said was about the common man, 2003 01:51:14.720 --> 01:51:16.520 and then you do need to give this response. 2004 01:51:16.560 --> 01:51:20.239 Go ahead, okay, well yeah, just that that, you know, 2005 01:51:20.319 --> 01:51:23.039 Gregory is thinking, you do need to kind of think 2006 01:51:23.159 --> 01:51:26.039 pastorally and and so have a response for the common 2007 01:51:26.119 --> 01:51:31.159 man and have responses for educated people. So I do 2008 01:51:31.239 --> 01:51:34.399 think it's important, and yeah, I mean I don't know. 2009 01:51:34.439 --> 01:51:36.159 I think I think it's a good point. Like you know, 2010 01:51:36.199 --> 01:51:41.840 I guess rhetorically, you do want to have you know, good. 2011 01:51:42.319 --> 01:51:44.680 Well, but I think every every religious position kind of 2012 01:51:44.760 --> 01:51:47.600 has this issue. Any any major world religion, it's gonna 2013 01:51:47.640 --> 01:51:50.000 it's gonna you're gonna have people saying, well, look it's 2014 01:51:50.000 --> 01:51:52.439 really simple, our position is true, and then any of 2015 01:51:52.479 --> 01:51:54.880 the ones that you get into, even Islam, you're gonna 2016 01:51:54.880 --> 01:51:56.920 find out, well, there's a lot more complexity here than 2017 01:51:57.039 --> 01:51:59.880 was maybe on the surface. So you know, there's not 2018 01:52:00.159 --> 01:52:05.000 any like silver bullet way to avoid the possibility of 2019 01:52:05.319 --> 01:52:08.680 you know, thinking that the system is on the surface 2020 01:52:09.000 --> 01:52:11.800 just really simple and scale down. Then you get into it, 2021 01:52:11.880 --> 01:52:13.760 you find out there's a lot more complexity involved. And 2022 01:52:13.800 --> 01:52:15.119 that's going to be true for any position. 2023 01:52:16.479 --> 01:52:22.319 And as a Muslim, I will say, Islam is complex. 2024 01:52:23.760 --> 01:52:31.319 Islam is not simplistic. In all throughout Islamic civilization, both 2025 01:52:32.159 --> 01:52:36.399 Sunnis and Shia have always distinguished between the common people 2026 01:52:36.680 --> 01:52:42.640 known as the Alam and the intellectual elite known as 2027 01:52:42.880 --> 01:52:47.640 the kas. So this is a very common distinction. So 2028 01:52:48.600 --> 01:52:52.600 there's always been an internally complex Islamic discourse that is 2029 01:52:52.680 --> 01:52:55.920 for the elite that they don't actually share with the 2030 01:52:56.079 --> 01:52:58.319 common people, like they purposely. 2031 01:52:57.920 --> 01:52:58.359 Don't do it. 2032 01:52:58.399 --> 01:53:01.960 They're like very specific protocol than every religious science of Islam. 2033 01:53:02.520 --> 01:53:05.560 And if you read their writings, they're always distinguishing between 2034 01:53:05.600 --> 01:53:07.640 the commoners and the elite, and they're like, oh, we're 2035 01:53:07.680 --> 01:53:12.000 writing for the elite, So this is it's really false advertising. 2036 01:53:12.479 --> 01:53:14.880 When people come and say, oh, Islam is so simple, 2037 01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:18.960 I mean it's really not. Historically, it's not Islam like Christianity, 2038 01:53:19.640 --> 01:53:26.920 is a combination of scripture, tradition, and interpretation. Like those 2039 01:53:27.039 --> 01:53:32.119 three things. There's not one Islamic you know, sect or 2040 01:53:32.279 --> 01:53:37.880 denomination that is free of scripture, tradition, and interpretation. Islamic 2041 01:53:38.039 --> 01:53:41.000 law is one of the most complicated things. Like ever, 2042 01:53:41.439 --> 01:53:46.920 it's very complicated, right, Islamic theology is like even need 2043 01:53:46.960 --> 01:53:51.319 to say, it's more esoteric than Islamic law. And the 2044 01:53:51.439 --> 01:53:54.800 thing is to be a Muslim, whether Shia or Sundi, 2045 01:53:55.359 --> 01:53:58.800 you are required before you understand the way to live, 2046 01:53:59.119 --> 01:54:03.399 you are required to affirm an Islamic creed, a set 2047 01:54:03.479 --> 01:54:06.880 of beliefs, and you're required to understand what you affirm, 2048 01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:09.800 just like you guys have a nice in creed and 2049 01:54:10.000 --> 01:54:12.720 these creeds, I assume a Christian has to know the 2050 01:54:12.800 --> 01:54:15.560 creed that they affirm, right, they can't affirm it blindly, 2051 01:54:15.720 --> 01:54:19.880 so a Muslim has to affirm a creed out of conviction. 2052 01:54:20.079 --> 01:54:21.239 And you cannot affirm a. 2053 01:54:21.279 --> 01:54:24.840 Creed if you haven't studied some degree of Islamic theology. 2054 01:54:24.960 --> 01:54:27.479 And guess what that's full of terms like substance and 2055 01:54:27.600 --> 01:54:31.000 accidents and necessary and contingent. So this is just a 2056 01:54:31.119 --> 01:54:34.359 mirage that, oh, Islam is simple, and you know, all 2057 01:54:34.399 --> 01:54:37.319 the other religions are complicated. Actually, as a religion professor, 2058 01:54:37.359 --> 01:54:41.640 I'll say all religions have varying degrees of complexity. There 2059 01:54:41.720 --> 01:54:44.840 is a simplistic version of Christianity. God became man, so 2060 01:54:45.039 --> 01:54:49.000 man might become God. There very simple like that will 2061 01:54:49.039 --> 01:54:52.960 appeal some level of Christians that will satisfy them, and some. 2062 01:54:53.159 --> 01:54:54.119 Level of Muslims. 2063 01:54:54.359 --> 01:54:56.199 The Shahada alone will satisfy them. 2064 01:54:56.399 --> 01:54:58.000 They won't go deeper, and that's fine. 2065 01:54:58.680 --> 01:55:01.800 That's the beauty of religion that all religions contain layers 2066 01:55:01.920 --> 01:55:06.239 of complexity and simplicity, and every human can sort of 2067 01:55:06.800 --> 01:55:10.800 engage with the level of depth in their religion that 2068 01:55:11.000 --> 01:55:12.680 they have the capacity to bear. 2069 01:55:13.399 --> 01:55:14.479 That That's how I feel. 2070 01:55:16.199 --> 01:55:20.560 I agree, And also i'll this too. 2071 01:55:20.680 --> 01:55:22.920 I mean, I ever since I was a kid, I mean, 2072 01:55:22.960 --> 01:55:26.560 I've always been interested in just religion in general. I 2073 01:55:26.720 --> 01:55:29.239 like to study ancient mythologies and like I like to 2074 01:55:29.399 --> 01:55:32.520 learn about Buddhism and Hinduism and this stuff. And and 2075 01:55:32.680 --> 01:55:36.279 the way that Islam was always presented to me, I 2076 01:55:36.760 --> 01:55:40.520 always felt like, this is the most boring religion that 2077 01:55:40.640 --> 01:55:43.520 I don't really like, I'm not really that interested in 2078 01:55:43.560 --> 01:55:45.840 it is it just seems so like because it always 2079 01:55:46.000 --> 01:55:48.680 was presented when I was a kid or just you know, 2080 01:55:48.800 --> 01:55:51.560 reading about stuff on my own, like it's just like, well, 2081 01:55:51.600 --> 01:55:53.840 it's just this book and you have there's a few 2082 01:55:53.920 --> 01:55:55.760 rules and whatever, and there you go. 2083 01:55:56.039 --> 01:55:56.319 That's it. 2084 01:55:56.600 --> 01:55:59.520 And I was just like that's it, Like that's this 2085 01:55:59.680 --> 01:56:02.239 is you know. And and it's only in the last 2086 01:56:02.399 --> 01:56:04.680 several years that i've kind of you know, really well. 2087 01:56:04.720 --> 01:56:06.119 I mean, I guess when I went to grad school, 2088 01:56:06.119 --> 01:56:09.319 I kind of started learning something about Islamic philosophy and 2089 01:56:09.359 --> 01:56:11.840 I was like, oh, that's interesting. They actually have this 2090 01:56:12.000 --> 01:56:16.359 whole you know, history of philosophical debate and whatever. It's like, oh, 2091 01:56:16.399 --> 01:56:18.880 there's actually a whole yeah, Like I mean to me, 2092 01:56:19.079 --> 01:56:22.079 that makes it more much more interesting. Like now I 2093 01:56:22.199 --> 01:56:24.680 kind of am like, oh, I'd like to know more 2094 01:56:24.760 --> 01:56:28.640 about all of this. So I think Yeah, it's it's 2095 01:56:28.720 --> 01:56:31.079 not a it's not a good way to present. 2096 01:56:31.279 --> 01:56:34.239 Yeah, the attempt at selling point of oh this is 2097 01:56:34.319 --> 01:56:36.680 like the super easy thing. It might cut both cut 2098 01:56:36.840 --> 01:56:37.680 both ways. 2099 01:56:37.920 --> 01:56:41.800 Like yeah, uh Joe, but it's going to turn off 2100 01:56:41.960 --> 01:56:42.319 some people. 2101 01:56:42.399 --> 01:56:47.039 Yeah, exactly exactly, Jordain. You have a question, Well, it's it's. 2102 01:56:47.119 --> 01:56:48.720 Pretty much on the topic that you've had this whole 2103 01:56:48.760 --> 01:56:52.079 week about paid these factories and what doctor cooleg just said. 2104 01:56:52.960 --> 01:56:55.079 Why even though like over the last like fifty years, 2105 01:56:55.760 --> 01:56:59.840 everyone is every church, Protestant church in mainstream like dummed 2106 01:56:59.840 --> 01:57:02.399 out Islam, why is it continued? 2107 01:57:02.479 --> 01:57:03.800 Like why is this process. 2108 01:57:03.479 --> 01:57:08.800 Continued of abandoning like any higher intellect within within religion. 2109 01:57:09.560 --> 01:57:11.640 Why is it persistent even though the long term it 2110 01:57:11.800 --> 01:57:14.079 always ends in liberalism, in atheism? 2111 01:57:14.119 --> 01:57:15.560 Why is it persisted? Do you guys think? 2112 01:57:16.079 --> 01:57:18.399 I think there's multiple reasons. I think there's a there's 2113 01:57:18.439 --> 01:57:22.479 a cultural trend. It's can you it's it's really loud 2114 01:57:22.479 --> 01:57:25.359 in the background, so let me so. I think there's 2115 01:57:25.399 --> 01:57:30.399 a cultural trend in general of people leaving theism, leaving 2116 01:57:30.439 --> 01:57:35.880 the church, leaving Christianity because the culture is so toxic. 2117 01:57:35.960 --> 01:57:39.039 So it's constantly pumped at them to engage in degeneracy, 2118 01:57:39.119 --> 01:57:42.920 to accept degeneracy. The education system, the government from a 2119 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:46.359 top down is pushing it. There are wealthy people who 2120 01:57:46.520 --> 01:57:50.520 influence religions and they donate to religious institutions, to seminaries 2121 01:57:50.600 --> 01:57:54.159 to make them into atheism factories. So all of those 2122 01:57:54.199 --> 01:57:58.399 things play a role. That's that's my take on that. 2123 01:57:58.520 --> 01:58:02.800 Why do you think there's a can constant push, doctor Branson? 2124 01:58:03.520 --> 01:58:06.039 I mean, I'd agree with all that, but I'd also 2125 01:58:06.319 --> 01:58:09.960 say to me, I think there's this kind of like 2126 01:58:10.239 --> 01:58:14.239 business model for churches that I mean, especially in America, 2127 01:58:14.359 --> 01:58:17.159 Like it's it's become a thing at some point to 2128 01:58:17.279 --> 01:58:20.199 kind of like treat it like a business. Like you're 2129 01:58:20.239 --> 01:58:23.279 thinking about marketing and getting you know, your people are 2130 01:58:23.359 --> 01:58:25.680 like customers that are going to come in and and 2131 01:58:25.800 --> 01:58:28.520 I mean like if you want to be marketable to 2132 01:58:28.600 --> 01:58:30.640 the widest audience, like you want. 2133 01:58:30.479 --> 01:58:32.000 To be the lowest common nominator. 2134 01:58:33.640 --> 01:58:35.880 Yeah, I mean really Like I mean, how could you 2135 01:58:36.039 --> 01:58:42.439 get like a huge megachurch, you know, if you're taking 2136 01:58:42.560 --> 01:58:47.840 really really specific views on a lot of issues and whatever. 2137 01:58:48.520 --> 01:58:53.239 Yeah exactly. Yeah, I mean if you, yeah, your anti schedules, 2138 01:58:53.279 --> 01:58:55.199 anti this and that, like that's going to cut down 2139 01:58:55.279 --> 01:58:59.239 on the you know, offering plate so exactly that there 2140 01:58:59.319 --> 01:59:01.479 might be a you know, it might might hurt the 2141 01:59:02.000 --> 01:59:04.520 bottom line. So business church, which I did. I did 2142 01:59:04.560 --> 01:59:06.720 a livestream make it coat like if on a business 2143 01:59:06.800 --> 01:59:08.159 church a few years ago. So a lot of you 2144 01:59:08.279 --> 01:59:11.680 have probably seen that. I don't see any more. Super chats, 2145 01:59:12.159 --> 01:59:14.079 Doctor both, thank you for joining me, Doctor Calill, thank 2146 01:59:14.119 --> 01:59:17.439 you for joining me as well. Any any final thoughts, 2147 01:59:17.439 --> 01:59:21.079 anything else to debate? What have you thought of the 2148 01:59:21.319 --> 01:59:23.159 recent Muslim debate. I don't know if you've seen the 2149 01:59:23.199 --> 01:59:26.279 other ones, the ones that we did with Daniel and 2150 01:59:26.960 --> 01:59:27.760 Muslim Lantern. 2151 01:59:29.119 --> 01:59:30.000 No I heard about that. 2152 01:59:30.520 --> 01:59:33.239 I just now watched the first I don't know, maybe 2153 01:59:33.279 --> 01:59:34.960 half hour something, but it was a pretty long one, 2154 01:59:35.000 --> 01:59:36.840 so I've gotta gotta go through more. 2155 01:59:36.960 --> 01:59:37.640 But I did. 2156 01:59:37.880 --> 01:59:41.520 Yeah, I notice the opening like this is simple and you. 2157 01:59:41.560 --> 01:59:44.760 Know, and again I want to remind people. Muhammed a 2158 01:59:44.880 --> 01:59:48.960 job as well. Like Sam and I Fresh and Fits agreed, 2159 01:59:49.000 --> 01:59:52.000 we're happy to do two on two. So Mohammed a job, 2160 01:59:52.119 --> 01:59:55.239 doesn't want to debate Sam. Shemoon directly wants Sam to 2161 01:59:55.319 --> 01:59:59.479 debate Jake. Easy solution, Jake, Muhammed a job debate me 2162 01:59:59.560 --> 02:00:02.119 and Sam on Fresh and Fit. Myron said he's happy 2163 02:00:02.159 --> 02:00:05.279 to do that, so I'll issue that challenge and thank 2164 02:00:05.319 --> 02:00:07.720 you for joining me. Doctor Bow and everybody can check 2165 02:00:07.760 --> 02:00:09.840 out his website. He's linked if you want to go 2166 02:00:09.920 --> 02:00:12.399 see his lectures and his media appearances. I highly recommend 2167 02:00:12.439 --> 02:00:15.359 this series on monarchical trinitarianism that's over at his website. 2168 02:00:15.600 --> 02:00:19.159 You can also find his uploaded videos at Orthodox Rahta. 2169 02:00:19.680 --> 02:00:22.640 Doctor Klill is also on YouTube as well under his name. 2170 02:00:22.760 --> 02:00:25.560 So thank you guys and appreciate you coming on