1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:18,839 Speaker 1: Pet Life Radio, Let's Talk Pets. 2 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,559 Speaker 2: Welcome to Aquarium Mania. I'm your host, doctor Royanan, speaking 3 00:00:27,559 --> 00:00:31,839 to you from the University of Florida IPHIS Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory. 4 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,079 Thanks for joining us. Where in the world are Sunda, 5 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:42,840 Wallasea and Sahul My guest today? Sam Fernald, a lifelong aquarist, taxonomist, 6 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:46,640 and founder and co owner of Hillstream Kingdom LLC, a 7 00:00:46,719 --> 00:00:50,920 specialty aquarium fish wholesaler based in Maine and Guangdong, has 8 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,479 a great appreciation for and expertise with the fishes from 9 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,640 these areas around Southeast Asia and the South Pacific. These 10 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,799 include the unusual and beautiful Hillstream loaches. Join us as 11 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,719 Sam explains the geologic and evolutionary importance of their native 12 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:11,239 ranges and shares his passion and interest in bringing these 13 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,920 beautiful new species into the aquarium hobby. We'll be right 14 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:16,400 back after these messages. 15 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 3: You know the expression cats have nine lives? Well, what 16 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,640 if you can give them one more? But give them ten? 17 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:29,879 Movement is on a mission to help give cats an 18 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,680 extra life. How with spae and neoter Spain or neotering 19 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,480 your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life. And 20 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,200 it helps control free roaming cat populations too. Learn more 21 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,879 about the benefits of spee and neuter and meet Scooter, 22 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,239 the neutered cat at give them ten dot Org. That's 23 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:54,159 give them ten dot org. 24 00:01:56,239 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 4: Let's talk pets on petlife radio dot com. 25 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: Welcome back to aquarium Mania on tet life Radio. My 26 00:02:10,879 --> 00:02:15,360 guest today is Sam Fernald, lifelong aquarist, founder and co 27 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:19,520 owner of Hillstream Kingdom LLC, and expert on hillstream loaches 28 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,800 and other freshwater fishes from around Southeast Asia and the 29 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,520 South Pacific. So, Sam, we finally are meeting to have 30 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:31,000 this interview. I'm real excited. Yeah, have some personal questions 31 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:34,120 to ask, of course. First, so how did you first 32 00:02:34,199 --> 00:02:36,280 become interested in fish and aquariums? 33 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 5: Oh gosh, So one of my earliest memories is being 34 00:02:40,599 --> 00:02:44,000 in Las Vegas and my dad's holding me and there's 35 00:02:44,039 --> 00:02:47,599 this giant saltwater aquarium. I found out that that's what 36 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,919 it was years later, but I remembered staring into this 37 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:56,080 ocean and it was, I guess, some aquarium and a 38 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,599 casino lobby in Las Vegas. One of my earliest memories. 39 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:04,000 How it programmed me. Later on, I started getting really 40 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,960 interested in the pet store as soon as I could talk, 41 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,199 that would be like where I wanted to go, and 42 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,400 so I instantly was drawn to having an aquarium as 43 00:03:12,439 --> 00:03:16,280 soon as my little memory can kick in, and my 44 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,800 parents are like, you know, eventually, eventually, eventually. 45 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: So, yeah, I grew up in Maine, is that right? Yeah? 46 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, rural Maine, mid coast. So we grew up in Rockport. 47 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,439 It's part of a five town, like traditional New England village, 48 00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:33,199 so we have a lot of lobs from in that's 49 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,000 part of our industry. And then we really relying on tourism, 50 00:03:36,199 --> 00:03:39,520 so it's pretty dead for the whole year beside summer, 51 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:43,199 and so summer, when the weather's perfect, that's when everyone 52 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:46,439 comes to their summer houses and us townies kind of 53 00:03:46,599 --> 00:03:47,800 get stuck with the traffic. 54 00:03:48,719 --> 00:03:51,319 Speaker 2: Nice. So can you describe your very first tank if 55 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:53,439 you can remember it, how big it was, and maybe 56 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:54,159 some fish you had? 57 00:03:54,319 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's actually a pretty good story. 58 00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:00,240 So we had this local pet shop called Hot Hollie 59 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,919 Docks and my Grampy, who just recently passed away in 60 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,159 early June, a day after his birthday, his ninety Sorry 61 00:04:07,159 --> 00:04:09,680 but but ah, thanks. He had a good life. Though 62 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,280 he had a lot of hobbies, and aquariums and garden 63 00:04:13,319 --> 00:04:17,199 ponds were one of them. And so another very first 64 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,759 memory of mine is going to his house where him 65 00:04:20,759 --> 00:04:23,040 and my grammy retired to was just a little ranch 66 00:04:23,399 --> 00:04:26,800 and they had dug out three little ponds that were 67 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,720 connected by streams, and every year, even though it was 68 00:04:31,759 --> 00:04:34,600 illegal to do so in Maine, he would go and 69 00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:38,319 buy a couple goldfish at Holly Docks, and this is 70 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,360 the early nineties, and so he put them into the 71 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,319 cons and be like a shish stop telling you one. 72 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,920 And I thought it was the coolest thing. And so 73 00:04:45,079 --> 00:04:47,360 he would tell me stories about his fish tanks. And 74 00:04:47,399 --> 00:04:51,120 he had saved all of his tropical fish keeping books 75 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,759 so he had I could go pull him out later 76 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,800 and they were gifted to me after he passed. But 77 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,040 he has like some of the original tropical fish and 78 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,240 illustrated fish husband read books, and I thought they were 79 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,199 the coolest thing. I couldn't read them, but I'd sit 80 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,959 there flip through the pages and I think that's the 81 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,360 first time I saw like a real nice hobbyist fish 82 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:14,279 tank fully planted, and it was like, I want that. 83 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:17,519 Never gave it up, never gave it up. Seventh birthday, 84 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,920 I come home and we lived in this kind of little, 85 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:23,000 shoddy apartment, and sitting in the middle of our kind 86 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,120 of dim living room was this glowing forty tall and 87 00:05:27,399 --> 00:05:29,879 my gran Fee had been keeping it at his house 88 00:05:30,199 --> 00:05:32,800 and he had totally pimped it out there. He had 89 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,199 that crystal glass kind of paint that you could paint 90 00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:38,639 the back of aquariums and it would kind of give 91 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,560 you like a frozen ice pattern. He had done it 92 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,959 with lime green. It had the plants with the little 93 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,000 lead wrapping at the bottom for the weight. They were 94 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:54,360 Albino Corri's cardinal tetras and I think pork choprass borus. Wow, 95 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,680 that's awesome, great surprise. Yeah, best gift I was ever given. 96 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,560 I think, very cool, very cool. 97 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: So fast forward a little bit and we're going to talk, 98 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:04,439 obviously more about some of the specifics of somebodyse Can 99 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,360 you tell us about your current fishroom, how many tanks 100 00:06:07,879 --> 00:06:10,279 and maybe what types of fish you have? Yeah? 101 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, So there are sixteen ten gallons in my personal fishroom. 102 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,040 So I have two facilities, my personal fishroom and then 103 00:06:17,079 --> 00:06:20,399 my wholesale facility, my personal in home facility. I have 104 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,040 sixteen ten gallons fixed, twenty talls, and three forty breeders, 105 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,720 and then I have display tanks scattered around the house. 106 00:06:27,959 --> 00:06:33,319 Speaker 2: So your hardcore and hardcore pretty much all fish from 107 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,000 the areas we're going to talk about for the most part. Yeah, 108 00:06:36,399 --> 00:06:40,920 only those areas. Okay, those areas great, Great, So I'm 109 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,480 gonna fast forward a little bit. You obviously went to 110 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,160 college and then graduate school. Did your fish in aquarium 111 00:06:48,199 --> 00:06:51,519 keeping kind of follow you there? And or I guess 112 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,639 how did you choose what you ended up kind of 113 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:55,240 studying and why as well? 114 00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:58,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, so I was always good at the hard sciences 115 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,399 and that biology chemist street kind of came easy, so 116 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:06,079 naturally it seemed like i'd follow one of those degrees. 117 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,560 So I initially chose biology, but then I fell into 118 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:12,519 human biology, still a little more focused on vertebrates, and 119 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,560 then proluctives. You get to take sociology and psychology class 120 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:20,040 so that's where I got my BA in and sadly, 121 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:23,319 I did not keep aquariums all the way through college, 122 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,519 but I did have potted plants, and I got really 123 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,639 into watching what people were doing in terms of aquascaping. 124 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,560 So I felt like those years while I was learning 125 00:07:32,839 --> 00:07:35,839 my trade essentially, or the first part of my trade. 126 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,480 I was also learning what other people were doing in 127 00:07:38,519 --> 00:07:41,360 the hobby and kind of you know, connecting all the 128 00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:44,800 gears and deciding what am I going to actually like 129 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:46,680 assemble in my own fish room one day? 130 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:50,759 Speaker 2: Okay? And yeah, and I guess now going into what 131 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,560 you had actually studied before we talk about your aquarium 132 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,199 industry career, can you explain your other job as an 133 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,560 amusiologist and all the work you do. It sounds really 134 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,480 interesting and you did mention that's when you gave me 135 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:06,199 some advice. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. 136 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,279 Speaker 5: So in my undergraduate when I was doing my BA 137 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:12,519 in human bio, I did a study abroad at the 138 00:08:12,519 --> 00:08:17,759 only liberal arts university in Asia, which is Landon University. 139 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,199 And what drew me to that was they were starting 140 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,519 up a natural history department and their natural history department 141 00:08:23,879 --> 00:08:26,959 was and it did end up becoming the best in Asia. 142 00:08:27,279 --> 00:08:30,040 And so when I went, I was taken under the 143 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,799 wing of a professor named Lee Kenji and he's kind 144 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:36,840 of into biotech. He does stuff with the University of 145 00:08:36,879 --> 00:08:39,480 Hong Kong, and then I think also a Shingwa He 146 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,399 was a visiting professor there and he was helping with 147 00:08:42,639 --> 00:08:47,840 the Natural History department and my advisor back at Pitzer, 148 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,679 so I went to the Claremont Colleges, which is an 149 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:55,080 Oxford style interdisciplinary model, so it's an assembly of five 150 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,360 undergraduate colleges and then a graduate university and then a 151 00:08:59,399 --> 00:09:02,240 biotechnolology school, and I think they're trying to add on 152 00:09:02,639 --> 00:09:05,240 the theology school there too, and the graduate school there 153 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,440 are tons and so that's where I did my master's 154 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:10,000 degrees and then my doctorate as well, but I did 155 00:09:10,039 --> 00:09:13,159 start out in bio. So jumping back to the bats though, 156 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,639 my undergraduate advisor, Donald McFarland, has an interest in cave 157 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,919 and tombbats, specifically how they teach share during the day 158 00:09:23,159 --> 00:09:26,080 while they're taking refuge in their caves. So he sent 159 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,720 me down there with the camera and we took pictures 160 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:33,360 of some of Miotis bats, so busper bats, and then 161 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:38,399 the pipistrials of Guangxi, and then for my senior thesis, 162 00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:41,960 we came back and we actually analyzed the distribution of 163 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,639 the individual cells of bats and they're sure enough they 164 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,279 have their own roosting and heat sharing patterns different across 165 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,039 species in genre. And then for the non I was 166 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,879 responsible for collecting fecal samples from all those bats. And 167 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,799 so they carry like a lot of let's say, rabies, 168 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,840 like viruses, stars like viruses, and humans they are very 169 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:07,360 susceptible to them. And you know, I don't know how 170 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,200 many people they kill your that infections or something to 171 00:10:10,279 --> 00:10:12,759 try to remedy. And so yeah, that was my that 172 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,759 was my little undergraduate job on Those are my research jobs. 173 00:10:15,799 --> 00:10:18,519 And then I fell into public health for grad school. 174 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,600 I don't really have the stomach to be I guess 175 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,879 like a true clinician that works with other organisms, like 176 00:10:25,039 --> 00:10:28,600 with my hands, like blood death can't do it. So 177 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,559 fish is kind of my tolerance. I can take fish dying, 178 00:10:31,639 --> 00:10:33,679 and anything past that it kind of, you know, my 179 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:35,759 mental health will get gets a little messed up. 180 00:10:35,879 --> 00:10:36,399 Speaker 2: So I do. 181 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 5: I do programming and public health now, so I do 182 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:45,840 population programming, social interventions, so specifically gaged around towards mental 183 00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:50,039 health issues. Yeah, so it's kind of naturally matured into 184 00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:52,039 like a career of today, I guess. 185 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,039 Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm assuming you were like Ppe during your 186 00:10:56,039 --> 00:10:59,399 back collections and everything. What's that you'd like gloves and 187 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,759 you know, and oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 188 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,159 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there was a whole protocol, 189 00:11:04,799 --> 00:11:07,559 and so we would go with the professor and then 190 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,679 other students that were also interested in the natural history 191 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,399 program and they would do their stuff too, So it 192 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,120 was kind of like a whole ecosystem sampling. And this 193 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,360 was kind of like the new Western approach. Because it 194 00:11:18,399 --> 00:11:20,720 was a liberal arts school. They just kind of wanted 195 00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:24,360 to list everything that was available in their biome at hand, 196 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:27,320 and so we went on tons of nature walks. I 197 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,039 don't know if we discussed me actually seeing hillstream loaches, 198 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,960 but I did get to see pseudo gastromize on Myers 199 00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:39,480 in Hong Kong, and that was when my mind was 200 00:11:39,519 --> 00:11:42,799 blown and I was like, oh my god, Asia is 201 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,759 an alien world filled with alien organisms, and the West 202 00:11:46,919 --> 00:11:48,679 cannot even conceive of half of them. 203 00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about fish. I had one quick question, 204 00:11:51,879 --> 00:11:56,080 did you learn Cantonese or Mandarin or it was in English? 205 00:11:57,039 --> 00:11:59,919 Speaker 5: So no. Part of my curriculum was actually taking Cantony 206 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,799 and Mandarin lessons, and I think I got low v's 207 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,759 in them. And I also had to take English too, okay, 208 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,320 and so everyone everyone in Hong Kong speaks perfect English 209 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,840 with a British accent and some of them are trying 210 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,159 to get an American accent. Now that was kind of 211 00:12:15,159 --> 00:12:17,960 after like you know, like they're like social stuff happened 212 00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:21,080 with kind of rejoining the mainland. Kind of their rebellion 213 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,320 was like we're going to get the British accent for 214 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:24,399 an American accent. 215 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: Now that's funny. Yeah. 216 00:12:26,279 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 5: So now pretty much everyone in China, and i'd say 217 00:12:29,279 --> 00:12:31,480 Southeast Asia speaks English. Yeah. 218 00:12:31,519 --> 00:12:32,519 Speaker 2: I love it. It's great. 219 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 5: I think every American should visit there, spend at least 220 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:36,559 a few weeks to a month. 221 00:12:36,759 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. 222 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got to spend some time in Hong Kong 223 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:41,600 do some work over there. That was, which was which 224 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:42,960 is cool? In Singapore? 225 00:12:43,279 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 5: Where's your family from? 226 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: Originally? My family is actually originally for the Philippines, so 227 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,080 oh wow, which doesn't have Hillstream loaches unfortunately. But that's 228 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:51,440 all right. 229 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 5: Now now you have go visa, you have go and 230 00:12:54,399 --> 00:12:55,399 lots of other stuff. 231 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 2: All right. So as we start our talk on the 232 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,440 fish part, now, I know and I really appreciated your 233 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,879 sending me that link to someone, you know, the talk 234 00:13:04,879 --> 00:13:08,279 you gave from Missouri there Cram Society. I'd heard of 235 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,120 the Walls line and hadn't heard of any of the 236 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:14,639 other lines, and definitely was not familiar with Sundo, Wallasea 237 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,279 or Sahul. Those are kind of really interesting features and 238 00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:21,519 sort of important, I think for some of the things 239 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:22,919 we're going to talk about. Can you give us a 240 00:13:22,919 --> 00:13:27,840 brief history in any biogeography lessons to her put these 241 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,039 fish in context? Sure? 242 00:13:29,159 --> 00:13:32,399 Speaker 5: Sure, Sure. So Southeast Asia, I like to think of 243 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,960 it as like the true Atlantis, It's a sunken land. 244 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,960 There are all these island nations that have unique fauna, 245 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,399 and science was always completely perplexed by them. Where do 246 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,080 we actually draw these final lines? And so over time, 247 00:13:45,159 --> 00:13:49,000 a lot of I'd say, like biologists geniuses have tried 248 00:13:49,039 --> 00:13:52,559 to deduce exactly what happened there, and it looks like 249 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,320 there were three little mini continents stund the land, which 250 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,480 would be mainland Asia, though Indo China connecting down to Vietnam, 251 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,200 and then Borneo and Sumatra and peninsular Malaysia would also 252 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,320 have been part of it. And then there was Wallasia, 253 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:14,399 which was essentially like this pressure cooker of collision where 254 00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:18,960 the continental plates of Asia and Australia, the greater continents 255 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,279 collide and they're pushing up. This land mass together is 256 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,759 kind of bubbling up, and it's this bizarre little almost 257 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,879 I would say, like futuristic ecosystem of baltwater fauna which 258 00:14:29,919 --> 00:14:32,360 have evolved to live in fresh water. So you have 259 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,320 like these outrageously colored shrimp, and so it's its own 260 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,399 little we we'll talk about it, but it's its own 261 00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:40,840 little ecosystem. And so that's Sulawesi is the island, the 262 00:14:40,879 --> 00:14:43,519 main island now, and then Timoor and then I think 263 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:45,720 the Sewel are part of it as well, and then 264 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:50,559 sahul The whole is Australia Papua New Guinea, and they 265 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:52,799 used to be connected, and so a lot of their 266 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,360 fauna is shared. It's like Papua New Guinea's kind of 267 00:14:55,399 --> 00:14:58,679 like a tropical version of Australia, and Australia is like 268 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,960 a more arid, lansy version of Papua New Guinea. And 269 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,519 so the scientists that have visited these areas are finally 270 00:15:06,559 --> 00:15:11,639 put together that about between fifty thousand and five thousand 271 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,919 years ago, so pretty recently in terms of historical events, 272 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,120 like modern anatomical humans like me and you speak in 273 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,720 modern languages, were walking around when the events I'm about 274 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,519 to explain happened. There was a rapid seeking event, so 275 00:15:23,639 --> 00:15:26,279 no one knows exactly what happened, but I've just been 276 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,000 It was like a lowland kind of little Greekish ecosystem 277 00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:33,320 that had persisted for a while and finally tides caught 278 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,039 up with it. But over the course of a few 279 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,039 thousand years and all these islands were split off from 280 00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:40,799 the mainland due to a mass sinking event. So Lord 281 00:15:40,919 --> 00:15:45,480 knows what lies underneath the ocean and the teptonic debris 282 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:49,519 in the Indo Pacific. I'm sure lots of humans, animals, 283 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,480 and cultures lost and it's recent, so pretty cool. I 284 00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:55,399 think there are a lot of doctorates to be gained 285 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,279 in Asia from say human bio all the way to 286 00:15:58,879 --> 00:15:59,759 like their fauna. 287 00:15:59,799 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: So yeah, really cool stuff there. Yeah, yeah, definitely, And yeah, 288 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,000 I appreciate that. It was pretty fascinating to kind of 289 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:09,399 hear about it the first time when you heard you speak. 290 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,320 So what first brought you into these areas and how 291 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,799 did you develop your passion first the interesting species within 292 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:17,399 these areas. 293 00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 5: I've been lucky enough to have traveled to Asia a 294 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,799 few times in my life. The first was when I 295 00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:25,840 was high school, I did a study abroad program for 296 00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:28,720 the summer in Myanmar, which at the time was called 297 00:16:28,759 --> 00:16:33,759 Burma and Thailand. So I lived around the Changmai area 298 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,480 in northern Thailand, and I kind of got to see 299 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,279 some BALLATORI da there and I was like, oh, this 300 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,600 kind of looked like plucos because they have like local 301 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:43,360 fish shops where people bring in you know, like their 302 00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:47,200 betas they're breeding Beta. Breeding's pretty big in Thailand. And 303 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,559 then when I was in Meanmar, I got to see 304 00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:52,120 like the fish export happen, so a lot of like 305 00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:56,080 truly like rare animals getting exported at throughout what the 306 00:16:56,559 --> 00:16:58,240 town is that we stayed up, but it's just right 307 00:16:58,279 --> 00:17:01,360 over the border. It's like the tourist ton and Meanmar 308 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,720 back when you could go, I think it's no longer 309 00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:06,720 available for western travel. And then we did stay at 310 00:17:06,759 --> 00:17:10,000 a rural village there and I saw some like wild amphibians. 311 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,960 So then fast forward, I went to study in Hong 312 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,200 Kong and I saw the true Hillstream which is gastrumized 313 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,640 on a day for the first time. Pseudo Gastromi is 314 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,119 on my er See in time Oshan, which is the 315 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,880 main Mountain on Hong Kong's like mainland extension, which is 316 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,319 called in New Territories. We went on a hike and 317 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,000 then this frigid, crystal clear stream. It must have been 318 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,480 ninety degrees with like one hundred and twenty five percent humidity, 319 00:17:35,559 --> 00:17:39,359 so we were like drenched. And in Asia, a lot 320 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,559 of the spring waters cleaned to drink when you get 321 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:45,599 up pretty high elevations. So Okuser, the Kenji took us 322 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,480 on the walk, was like, you know, you can drink 323 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,839 this stuff. Every time I come here throughout the years, 324 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,119 I fill up my bottle and drink it. So we 325 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,119 went to the spring that pseudo gastromiz on my ERSI 326 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,839 are like frolicking around and we fill our like water glasses, 327 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:01,759 and it was the coolest thing to me. And I 328 00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:03,920 asked him, like what are those like, you know, like 329 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,119 my little like western eyes. I'm one of the only 330 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,799 American exchange students for the year. Everyone else is like 331 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,400 European or let's say Central Asian, So like you're like 332 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,400 here's Kyrghyzstani's and there's Becky's that were there in Russians too, 333 00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:20,240 and then like they weren't they weren't interested in nature, 334 00:18:20,319 --> 00:18:23,039 like they were just there to learn science. They wanted 335 00:18:23,079 --> 00:18:25,680 to learn how to do chemistry and biotech, and so 336 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:29,279 essentially professionally, Kunji is like, those are just suckerfish, like 337 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:32,400 they're everywhere, They're like a zillion million species, like, can't 338 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,640 get rid of them. I fell in love with them, 339 00:18:34,839 --> 00:18:36,519 and I was like, I'm going to have those at 340 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:38,640 home one day. And so this is my junior year 341 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,000 in college, and sure enough I got to see more 342 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,759 gastromize on today. I got invited by a friend who 343 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:49,559 was studying abroad in Taiwan to go to Borneo for 344 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,720 two weeks, and we went on this nature walk and 345 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:56,440 I got to see true gastromiason in incredibly high density. 346 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,920 They almost look like pest snails on rocks. Again in frigid, 347 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:05,559 crystal clear streams high elevation near the orangutan preserves, and 348 00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:07,920 I wish I knew what species they were, But again 349 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,039 they were in a novelty to me because I'd already 350 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,160 seen like gastrum isson a day, like pseudogastromyason had already 351 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,640 like stolen my heart in Hong Kong. So I was 352 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,599 more interested in the orangutans. So I wish I would 353 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:21,000 have investigated them, but I didn't. 354 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,279 Speaker 2: That's funny. Yeah, it sounds like you had a lot 355 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,200 of a lot of opportunities to kind of see them 356 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,920 in different areas. We'll go forward a little bit. So 357 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,440 can you tell us what made you found Hillstream Kingdom 358 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,039 LLC and what your and your partner's goals are for 359 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:35,920 that company. 360 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, so the Hillstream loaches have always been like some 361 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,359 sort of unattainable thing for me because no one was 362 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,759 importing them. Occasionally, these fish will be imported under the 363 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:54,160 name either pseudogastro Maayason the Weelia or Gastromayason Wui. And 364 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,640 I'm using air quotes here for people that can't see 365 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,440 me and woy. This is their Latin name. It's not 366 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,880 a scientist name. It just means all mixed together in Asia. 367 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,640 And so prior to like me, it was truly me 368 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:11,759 and my team dissecting all of their species and assigning 369 00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:15,440 pictures to them based on catch locations. We're coming in mixed, 370 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:18,599 no one could get permanent colonies of them. What Spot 371 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,160 did a pretty good job of like splitting out contaminants 372 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,400 from like their Ceuelliolini alata offerings. 373 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: That they get through. 374 00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 5: I think it's one of those like like a Hanulai 375 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:30,799 aquarium or whatever it is, the exporter out of Vietnam 376 00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:35,440 and then Pseudogastromiason would come in and frequently whenever On 377 00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:38,799 Kong would be available for Western export when it wasn't 378 00:20:38,839 --> 00:20:42,119 like having restrictions put on it, and or the occasional 379 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,359 westerner would go over to China to make an actual 380 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,880 partnership because the Chinese are very family oriented and they're 381 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,480 not very prone to doing business with anyone other than 382 00:20:52,519 --> 00:20:56,039 their family members overseas. So my partners are kind of 383 00:20:56,079 --> 00:20:59,519 like a blessing. They're younger than me, mid twenties, my 384 00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:02,160 friend and well he's truly like my they're my friends. 385 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,079 Also we can call each other brothers. That's kind of 386 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,559 like the title I've earned with them through doing business 387 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,359 is they trust me like a family member. Jason Wank 388 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,880 he kind of wants to be like the David Attenborough 389 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,079 of China. So he's making a lot of really cool 390 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,839 homemade documentaries now, and prior to doing that, he did 391 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,000 cameraman work for like the Chinese version at BBC, doing 392 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,839 like local nature documentaries, so he got to play with 393 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:29,839 like macro lenses, so he does all of our photography. 394 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:34,200 He also knows the import export game, and we each 395 00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:36,720 kind of like made a fifty to fifty investment into 396 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,799 our import export house. So eventually they want me to 397 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,440 exupport our native North American darters, which are fabulous unheeded 398 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,319 aquarium fish, and people don't know a thing about them. 399 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,480 So the Ethiostoma genus and the persona genus, they're captive 400 00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:55,240 breeding just plain old rainbow darters and green darters and 401 00:21:55,319 --> 00:21:59,519 banded darters in China, and they fetch like eight hundred 402 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,440 Chinese to on, which is like one hundred and twenty bucks, 403 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,640 And here joan Is Aquarium sells them for like eight bucks, 404 00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:09,160 and so no one knows about them. But they're that beautiful. 405 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,160 It is like that's what they're truly worth. And so 406 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,519 the hillstream loaches I wanted them here. I think that 407 00:22:13,519 --> 00:22:17,000 they're worth having aquariums fish rooms like mine. So my 408 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,000 entire fishroom, the only bottom dwellers I have are hillstream loaches. 409 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,559 And let's say past in vertebrates like black worms, white worms, 410 00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:28,079 and microworms and those kind of like they'll feed off 411 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:29,640 of those, and those feed to fry. 412 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: Okay, great, well, let us take a break, and we'll 413 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,039 take a short break and continue our discussion with my guest, 414 00:22:37,279 --> 00:22:41,279 Sam Fernald of Hillstream Kingdom LLC. After a word from 415 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:42,559 our sponsors. 416 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 6: Begging to hear more of your favorite show, Colful. Episodes 417 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,640 of all our shows are available on demand. Go to 418 00:22:51,759 --> 00:22:54,799 fedlife radio dot com to fetch our entire lineup of 419 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,759 powsome ped podcasts. Also dig us up and iHeartRadio and 420 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,400 iTunes talks live only from pet Life Radio. 421 00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: Let's talk past talk about headline radio. 422 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 4: Atlight radio dot com. 423 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,519 Speaker 2: And we're back and continuing our discussion of Hillstream Loaches 424 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:31,559 with my guest, Sam Fernald of Hillstream Kingdom LLC. All right, Sam, 425 00:23:31,599 --> 00:23:33,839 with that intro and kind of getting to know you 426 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:36,279 a little bit better and how all this came to be, 427 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,400 Let's dive into the Hillstream loaches more specifically, I guess 428 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,240 let's start with talking about what kind of habitats these 429 00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:45,880 fish usually inhabit Can you explain that to them? Are 430 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:46,480 our listeners? 431 00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah sure. So Hillstream loaches are amazing 432 00:23:50,599 --> 00:23:54,200 and they are endemic to scindaland and so we already 433 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,599 went over to biogeography. So Sindaland ranges from like truly 434 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,000 tropical equatorial and environments like Borneo. The equator literally runs 435 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,640 right through it, and you get hillstream loaches that come 436 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,839 from a little bit more tropical warmer summer, so the 437 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,839 Borneo loaches can take it quite warm. They'll come from 438 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:14,200 hill streams, but I kind of call them more like 439 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:16,680 jungle creeks, so you'll see like more of like a 440 00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:20,480 jungle gravelly substrate with them, and more of smoothed out 441 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,480 rock ledges like you see in South America, more of 442 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:26,720 like a reddish substrate to those streams. And so the 443 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,440 gastrumizon and neo gastrum Iason which are also from there, 444 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,200 and hyper gastromizon, those are jungle creek fish. They're really 445 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,759 flexible in temperature. They can go down to the low 446 00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:39,000 sixties all the way up to the high eighties with 447 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,720 proper water turnover, because those hillstreams never stop moving. And 448 00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:46,960 then the hillstream loaches can also be found in what 449 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,759 I would call two hillstreams, which are more temperate, come 450 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:53,039 from temperate rainforests, like a little bit a few degrees 451 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:58,079 up in latitude, so like in northern Vietnam, you'll find 452 00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:02,440 sewellia and cloud forests, which are these almost like southern 453 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:08,200 South America, very misty mountains orchids, really heavy like beard 454 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:13,079 mosses and giant boulders now rather than jungle creeks, so 455 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,519 really big granite boulders which are kind of the leftover 456 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,039 from the continent getting battered with rising tides and sinking 457 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,680 and rising and then more temperates rivers. So in China, 458 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,119 some of the hillstream loaches will actually be able to 459 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,839 tolerate down into the mid bodies. And these would be 460 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,119 ideal pond and let's say, outdoor hillstream fish for us 461 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,079 in the southern United States. I think they'd make fabulous 462 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,400 additions to garden ponds, great ornamental fish load to reproduce 463 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,880 though a pair will maybe give you twenty babies every 464 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:53,039 three months, so they couldn't be invasive. They like to 465 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,920 be in the sun, so they're always out and about Why. 466 00:25:56,839 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 2: Don't you since you've kind of mentioned a couple of 467 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,720 the different groups, and can you maybe for the listeners 468 00:26:01,759 --> 00:26:04,960 sort of describe kind of what they look like. And yeah, 469 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,279 a little bit of the differences maybe between the two 470 00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:10,440 major families and then the family I know you kind 471 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:11,240 of like a little more. 472 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, So broadly, hillstream loaches, they're what I call true 473 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:19,640 hillstream loaches, which are gastromizon to day, and then lizard 474 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,160 or witpale hillstream loaches which are ballatori day and these 475 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,880 are nocturnal ballatori day or heavily scaled nocturnal almost micropredators 476 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,519 that live in riffles more in headwaters. So they're very 477 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:33,599 oxygen dependent and they're more a little primitive. They seem 478 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,119 like a little more like ancestor fish or like earlier 479 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,839 genre than what I'm interested in, which are gastromized on 480 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,839 a day or hillstream true hillstream loaches and true hillstream 481 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,400 loaches come from a bunch of different families. And again 482 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,480 they're from a few land masses, and you can tell 483 00:26:50,519 --> 00:26:53,200 them apart based on which land mass they come from. 484 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,480 So the borneo hillstream loaches have these outrageous tropical patterns 485 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,079 like you would see on rainbow fish, almost so aritifhores, 486 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,519 which are like capturing reflective cells which give them more 487 00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:09,400 of a radiant light rather than true pigment, so they 488 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,920 sparkle under high high light, which is what they like. 489 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:13,839 So if you ever see these fish in the wild, 490 00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:17,160 they're in the sun, and these like crystal clear jungle creeks, 491 00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:20,759 and they sparkle like living diamonds almost, and they graze 492 00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:24,240 like cattle, and they talk to each other, which is amazing. 493 00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:27,440 All families are able to click jaws and grasp on 494 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,839 diminished swind bladders, so although it's inaudible to us, fish 495 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:34,039 are able to make their own sounds, and so moving 496 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,599 up to the more commonly known loaches from gastromized on it, 497 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,079 they would be like your reticulated hillstream loaches, and the 498 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,839 other Suellia like Suellia sp spotted which has now been 499 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,559 described as Swellia hype sick crotea, and those are more 500 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,519 like the they call them ufo shaped or sting gray 501 00:27:51,559 --> 00:27:54,599 shaped hillstream loaches. And then as you go more northward 502 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,400 you'll find that those ufo shaped hillstream loaches begin to 503 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,759 bleed into what I call and hillstream loaches, which are 504 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:07,160 more colorful. They like almost salamander looking hillstream loaches, and 505 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,720 those can be split into a few lineages. The Chinese 506 00:28:10,799 --> 00:28:14,799 ones are my favorite, specifically the sale thin hillstream loaches, 507 00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:18,920 and those are pseudo gastromiazon and labby gastromiaz On. Their 508 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,880 common names would be the purple thin hillstream loach would 509 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,960 be one that most people would know, pseudo Gastromizon ladysps. 510 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,599 One of the goals of our import house is to 511 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,440 bring every species and every location of it and establish 512 00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:34,920 it in the United States and either a home aquarium, 513 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,759 a garden center, a nature preserve, or a home pond, 514 00:28:39,359 --> 00:28:41,400 what have you. I think they're that special that they 515 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,480 need to be protected, and I worry for them as 516 00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:46,720 Asia develops that they could be lost. 517 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 2: And I think one of the things you had kind 518 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,680 of mentioned before, their kind of anatomy is a little 519 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,400 interesting relative to some of the other species. Can you 520 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,799 maybe talk about their anatomy and their finaged differences. 521 00:28:58,039 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So the hillstream loaches, rather than like 522 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,680 your traditional sucker fish, which just have its mouth part 523 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:09,119 adapted to being a suction plate, polstrimog is entire underside. 524 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,400 So it's like from their mouth all the way down 525 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,160 to their eurogenital region is their section plate. And they're 526 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,359 able to articulate every fin ray and their pectoral and 527 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,519 pelvic fin so thinking of them as like arms and legs, 528 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:26,880 they can articulate them like fingers essentially. And another thing 529 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,799 about them is they have these calcified nodules four to 530 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,880 seven on each pectoral and pelvic fin, almost like the 531 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,559 formation of Like I don't know, you're a veterinarian, maybe 532 00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:41,440 you could tell me this of if cartilage is a 533 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,680 precursor to bone materialming an evolution. Ye, so it's almost 534 00:29:46,759 --> 00:29:50,640 like they're developing new bone structures within their fins. And 535 00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:54,000 the higher in elevation you go, you then get to 536 00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:58,160 see this suction plate get lost and the fish almost 537 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,799 begin to gain like a new more f ology and 538 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,279 like van Menena, which I call shark suckers, and they 539 00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:08,240 actually stand up and like sculpins, will walk on all 540 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:13,279 four limbs. And one can't help but tie in this 541 00:30:13,799 --> 00:30:17,880 ecosystem of going higher and higher up in elevation as 542 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,200 a decrease in H two zero in an increase of air, 543 00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:24,200 and the fish are kind of adapting to it. So 544 00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:28,359 I kind of have always been perplexed by this conundrum 545 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,599 as Okay, the fish are adapting to moving in like 546 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,079 almost like a fresh water tide pool, which is tied 547 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,640 going up and down in these ever changing kill streams 548 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,119 through wet and dry seasons so they've adapted this complete 549 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,720 underside suction plate to crawl up rocks. They're tough as 550 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:49,640 nails essentially, so counterintuitively, they can last for like a 551 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,200 week or two in and then like a large enough 552 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,039 body of water without water movement because they're loaches. Loaches 553 00:30:57,079 --> 00:30:59,319 are pretty tough, and then they'll kind of like wait 554 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,920 until the rain hits again, and then they'll move back 555 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,279 to a stream and then they'll they actually will be 556 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,880 fry sometimes in these like stagnant water bodies which are 557 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,839 like ools, and so these are very mobile fish. And 558 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,519 then as you get higher where they get to more 559 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:15,440 of like these steady mountain springs where it's like the 560 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,920 water levels only a few centimeters, this bizarre newt morphology 561 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,400 begins to emerge, and then you find them cohabitating with 562 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,559 like true nuts, like the blue tailed spine ups fire 563 00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:28,440 bellied newts in Asia. So you'll find as you go high, 564 00:31:28,519 --> 00:31:31,319 high up in elevation that you get your arrived to 565 00:31:31,359 --> 00:31:34,400 a point where what I call like the shark suckers 566 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,160 that are like balamand they almost look like salamander hills, 567 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,039 trum loaches meet true newts and one thinks like, oh 568 00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:44,400 my god, is this It is this the missing link? 569 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:48,599 Is this the jump between water vertebrates and land vertebrates, 570 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,640 And it's just been here the whole time and we 571 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,079 just haven't made the jump. And so here in America 572 00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:56,880 we actually have some crevice dwelling salamanders that only exist 573 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,119 in headwaters, like the green salamander from the place the 574 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,839 Dante groupings, and they are dependent on trickles of spring 575 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,440 water keeping their eggs wet. And they're lungless. All of 576 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,799 our salamanders here, lungless salamanders. I just think it's the 577 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:14,160 coolest thing. I think all these dots need to be connected, 578 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,359 and someone's so close. I hope they come soon. 579 00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:19,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like, yeah, that is interesting, whether it's 580 00:32:19,119 --> 00:32:21,920 convergent or whether it's actually like relate you know. Yeah, 581 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,759 that's yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about aquariums and tank setups. Now, 582 00:32:26,039 --> 00:32:29,680 my first question for you is are these a good 583 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,440 beginner fish or are they going to be more for 584 00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:33,440 advanced hobbyists. 585 00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:36,559 Speaker 5: Oh. No, they're perfect for beginners. So they're actually pretty 586 00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:40,480 economical too. They don't require a heater. All they require is, 587 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,279 let's say, a hearty bubble, so they can't lose oxygen 588 00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:45,839 for more than let's say thirty six hours, because that's 589 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,480 the time window I give them for being a perishable 590 00:32:48,519 --> 00:32:50,920 good in transit, and so in the home aquarium in 591 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,559 high density it's about that too, a planet well dense aquarium. 592 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,200 All they require is an air pump. They like natural 593 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,240 fluctuation and temperature throughout the day, like say like a 594 00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:04,440 like almost like a like a salamander or your amphibians 595 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,359 that are about room temperature. They keep an a terrarium. 596 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,599 You don't require heat. They do require bright light though, 597 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,160 and so I do suggest keeping like a grow light 598 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,640 on their aquarium to get a nice biofilm to grow. 599 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,519 And so they're grazing fish. It's not that they're not 600 00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:23,920 beginner friendly, it's people jump the gun on getting them, 601 00:33:24,119 --> 00:33:27,480 and they have immature aquariums. And the most critical part 602 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,559 is that you have what I call is like a 603 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,480 general substrate layer that they can accept as being. They 604 00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:36,799 utilize substrate for their reproduction. In general foraging, they will 605 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,720 like plucos and corridoras, filter sam through their little gill 606 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:43,319 plates and pick out edible particles in addition to grazing, 607 00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:46,839 So that substrate layer needs to mature with microfauna, so 608 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,759 coca pods and then ideally like microworms to trytis worms, 609 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:54,240 what have you. And the bright light creates algae, and 610 00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:57,920 the algae plus these microfauna give us something called offlocks, 611 00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:01,839 which is its own little microse and it's like a 612 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,640 living algae wafer essentially, kind. 613 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,039 Speaker 2: Of like the yeah what the a lot of the 614 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:07,519 African ciglids, right. 615 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I could the raspers from the Tanganikan Haganiquan 616 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,760 sicklids will rasp on hair algae that's also bonded to 617 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,440 endemic microfon and get their full nutritional profile that way. 618 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,480 So the whole strem just have these itty bitty little 619 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,119 mouths because they're always sorting through these bits of natural 620 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,519 algae wafers off wos, let's just call it slime coat. 621 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,400 And then they'll filter pieces of sand and kind of 622 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,719 pop the little grains of sand out through their gills 623 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,800 and then they're like, oh, I found the worm. And 624 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,400 so what people miss is that you really need to 625 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,599 let your aquarium mature. So it's almost like an aquatic 626 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:42,960 terrarium we're making for them. We're going to have a 627 00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:47,119 sandy gravelly substrate. I really like to use smooth ocean 628 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:51,880 stones rather than let's say, like traditional aquarium substrate or 629 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,800 traditional hardscape you can buy. I find the smoother the surface, 630 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,360 the happier they are, and the more consistent the algae 631 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,880 profile is. So I use a combination of unglazed terra 632 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,239 cotta pots for them to hang on to, which is 633 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,519 also great for anaerobic bacteria to colonize inside of almost 634 00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:14,400 functions like a giant ceramic crean, and I fill it 635 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,920 up with again, I fill it up with that sandy 636 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,880 gravelly substrate and maybe lay a few smooth little pebbles 637 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,079 on top, because de loches for enrichment. They just love 638 00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:27,360 digging around in it. And as soon as your tank 639 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,960 matures and you're ready for them, the dump them in. 640 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 2: You just get this show. 641 00:35:31,639 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 5: And Yeah, I think that they're perfectly beginner friendly. It's 642 00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:38,199 just people jump the gun on getting them. They see them, 643 00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:40,280 they want them. They're the coolest newest thing right now 644 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,760 on the hobby, which sadly kind of leads to a 645 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,960 lot of death in this industry. Is people just don't know. 646 00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:49,760 So if we can dispel them here together today, I 647 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,800 think that you know we're onto something cool. 648 00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it sounds good, So I guess just to 649 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,480 kind of clarify, and you know, obviously main kind of 650 00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:00,519 room temp versus like Florida room temp. Although obviously we 651 00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:04,159 have ac down here. Yeah yeahh Like when you say temperatures, 652 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,599 I guess you said some can take it really cold, 653 00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:08,840 but in general a lot of them can handle sixty 654 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,880 to eighty ish. I mean obviously not that huge flux 655 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,440 in one time, but we'll see. So I would say, 656 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,400 like the hard boundary would be sixty sixty for the minimum, 657 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,360 eighty five for the maximum. Ok So all genre, all 658 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,719 genre be able to exist in that. So like kind 659 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,119 of like your bedroom temperature. No one's going to sleep 660 00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:31,239 in a ninety degree bedroom, you know, So like that's 661 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,559 kind of what I call them as like a bedroom display. 662 00:36:33,679 --> 00:36:34,039 I love. 663 00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:37,679 Speaker 5: I used to have this long, twenty gallon in here, 664 00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:41,719 and it had pseudogastromias On fasciatus and vegiang, which are 665 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,480 my absolute favorite species and location of Hellstream lonch And sadly, 666 00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:49,519 you know, they weren't mine because they were the businesses 667 00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:52,079 and they were for sale, and they got got sold off. 668 00:36:52,519 --> 00:36:54,199 I got sold and so they had to go. And 669 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,079 then the tank went because then the pest nail. I 670 00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:58,239 don't look at a tank full of pest nail, so 671 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,400 you know they got so. But yeah, their bedroom fish essentially, 672 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,000 or an unheated fishroom. So some people like to, like, 673 00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:07,920 you know, have like a fish room that they keep 674 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,519 like always like high seventies, high eighties, if they keep 675 00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:13,719 discus or plucos to keep them breeding. 676 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 2: Not like that. 677 00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 5: Hillstream locusts are going to be their own thing. It's 678 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,719 going to be an unheated, no un heated fishroom. But 679 00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:22,440 along with that kind of a whole new profile of 680 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,920 fish that absolutely love that temperature range as well, And 681 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,000 we can discuss those if you want to, either now 682 00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:30,239 or later. Yeah. 683 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 2: Actually, a couple of more quick things with regard to 684 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,719 water quality. I think I'm assuming you know same deal. 685 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,480 You don't want any ammonia nitrite and uh now you 686 00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:45,599 had mentioned something about common water changes often, is that right? 687 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, So actually there are some quirks to 688 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,880 this species. It's kind of like a new habit that 689 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,440 you're going to have to get into if you want 690 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,800 to be a hill They're starting to call themselves hilly 691 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,920 hobbyists h I L l I or h I l 692 00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:01,039 L I E. Is what they're calling themselves on Facebook. Now, 693 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,719 these are people that are just kind of like generally 694 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,320 finding out the best practices for these even though like 695 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,760 I've given them the best, my best information, it seems 696 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,320 like people are kind of always innovating in the in 697 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,719 the bobby, and so for water changes, it does look 698 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,559 like if you want to get them to always be 699 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,920 in production, they're receptive to having a cool water change 700 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,679 every once in a while to activate their breeding. So again, 701 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,199 if you are kind of lazy on water changes, you 702 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,599 want to have them in a more densely planeted aquarium 703 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,519 when you're doing your water changes. This is something that's 704 00:38:32,679 --> 00:38:35,280 very critical about a breeding colony, which I need to 705 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,880 say here. The loaches utilize their substrate as where they 706 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,920 lay their eggs. Some will use elongated tail, their elongated 707 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,840 tails like the mainland China geniuses which I really love 708 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,639 the sales and Pillstream loaches will use their long tail 709 00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:52,440 to clear out a burrow where they'll adhere some eggs 710 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,639 to the bottom surface of the rock and then brush 711 00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:58,079 it shut. Or some will literally they'll do a mating 712 00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:01,239 dance in the water column in a massive event, will 713 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,800 release their eggs and milk, or they will just be 714 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,880 egg scatterers. They will brush up against a rock surface 715 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,320 or plant or again just in a little ditch in 716 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,960 the substrate and deposit eggs and milk. So you cannot 717 00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:17,280 vacuum your substrate with these fish at all. You cannot. 718 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,159 You will lose fry out the window if you do so. 719 00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:22,480 Although it seems kind of counterintuitive, you have to have 720 00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:24,840 like moulm piles building up in the corner. And the 721 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,079 babies are dependent on eating their parents species to get 722 00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:31,880 their bacteria profile. That digest a lot of let's say 723 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,400 heavy plant matter that they encounter as grazers, and so 724 00:39:35,559 --> 00:39:39,360 this is actually something across most grazing animals. You'll see 725 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,519 that animals that have high cellulose intake require specialized bacteria 726 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:46,440 from their parents. So in overly clean tanks, people are 727 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,480 learning that the babies just kind of wilt, they diminish 728 00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:53,159 into these little, like thickly thin things, and then they die. 729 00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:56,599 And then tanks that are constantly pumped through with antibiotics 730 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,280 actually also have this effect on the fry to so 731 00:39:59,559 --> 00:40:02,280 you kind of I want to quarantine them to theses. 732 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,880 You'll just want to do parasite treatment with them, and 733 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,920 then for a broad spectrum antibiotic. If I see them, 734 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,480 like with a lesion that I'm worried about getting infected 735 00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:15,440 due to sharp substrate, I use doxycyclin. I think that's 736 00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:20,159 just a good broad spectrum topical internal external. You also 737 00:40:20,199 --> 00:40:24,119 do use like the nitro pizone canamies and combo et cetera. 738 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,920 But don't like be constantly pumping antibiotics dirty fish. Like, 739 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,000 after you get them clean, get them into a well planted, 740 00:40:31,119 --> 00:40:35,119 gravelly substrated sandy aquarium with smooth stones, and then stay 741 00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:38,440 up on cool water changes. I'd say daily for the 742 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,519 gastrom iazon for three days if you want to get 743 00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:42,960 them to breed, and then for all of their genre 744 00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:46,280 it would just be bi monthly or weekly if you're 745 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,920 feeding heavily, based on how heavy you feed them. So okay, 746 00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:53,280 pretty friendly, Pretty friendly in terms of husbandry, it's just 747 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,599 you know, like I do like five fahrenheit degree cooler 748 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,559 with the gastromiazon to trick them into thinking it rained 749 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:04,119 and actually tap water. It being a different pH will 750 00:41:04,119 --> 00:41:06,880 also trick them into being like, oh, it's rainy season. 751 00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 2: For the more. 752 00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:12,559 Speaker 5: Tropical equatorial species. The more northern species like Ciwellia mainland 753 00:41:12,599 --> 00:41:16,039 China genuses will breed uninterrupted as soon as their comfy 754 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,920 and or given like a cool water change to jump 755 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:19,679 start them. 756 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,559 Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, I guess one more quick question and 757 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:24,599 then we're going to have to wrap it up. I'll 758 00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:26,719 definitely have you on again and we'll talk about some 759 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,159 of the other species that can go with them. But 760 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,920 I guess in terms of like numbers and you know, 761 00:41:33,039 --> 00:41:36,159 social slash aggression, like what are your thoughts on that 762 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:37,519 for people that want to get these? 763 00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 5: Okay, so these are amazing, you can have. What I 764 00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:44,199 like to do is I pick a colorful species from 765 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:44,840 each genre. 766 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:45,559 Speaker 2: So I pick. 767 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,159 Speaker 5: Let me talk about stalking first before I jump the gun, 768 00:41:48,199 --> 00:41:50,480 and I get people all excited about going out and 769 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,440 buying these stocking The more the merrier. But with the 770 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,159 more you have, the more you have to stay up 771 00:41:56,159 --> 00:41:59,000 on the husbandry of the aquarium or have it be 772 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,760 automated plan which is something people are starting to cry 773 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,840 to see with their fish rooms, which is what minus. 774 00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:06,079 So I kind of feel heavy, and you know, I 775 00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:06,960 have dense stockings. 776 00:42:07,039 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 2: So in a. 777 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,079 Speaker 5: Twenty long I would say you could have sixty loaches 778 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,880 from twenty from three separate genres. That you could have 779 00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:19,400 twenty Thuellia from one species, so twenty I would pick twenty. 780 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,400 For a beginner, I'd do twenty Swellia linio lata in 781 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,159 a twenty long first, let it mature. Then I would 782 00:42:25,159 --> 00:42:28,559 add twenty borneo suckers, and then I would add twenty 783 00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:32,719 pseudogastromized on probably the Meyer's hillstream loach, your chenny, and 784 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,199 these would be good intro hillstream loaches for people. And 785 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,599 you can see how they all interact, and you'll see 786 00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:42,679 that they are incredibly social and their aggression level is minimal. 787 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,039 They have these little downward facing mouths, so they can't 788 00:42:46,159 --> 00:42:49,480 nip anyone to death like your stone loaches do. I 789 00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:53,199 do love botillas, I do love your shasteriloches, but they 790 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,920 are not community fish. They will suck down anything that 791 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,800 has shiny eyes'll inhale it out of their little skulls 792 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,639 or invert britz or quick lunch. The hillstream loaches are 793 00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:05,880 invert friendly, and their little jaws are so weak they 794 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,079 can't pop other fish's eggs or their own, so they're 795 00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:12,239 frying egg safe. And you'll see that they enter into 796 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,960 this bizarre little talk with each other in the most 797 00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:19,119 bright let's say, flat surface in your aquarium, whether it's 798 00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:22,119 a plane of glass, a flat rock in a place 799 00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:25,199 of flow that it's especially bright light, or the inside 800 00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:27,639 of a flower pot sitting up right. They really like that, 801 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,559 and they all kind of congregate every once in a 802 00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:33,239 while and they enter into these like dominance displays, and 803 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,920 then they disperse back to their own little sub territories. 804 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,760 So they're very social fish, and they require the company 805 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,840 of others, and it doesn't have to be from their 806 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,039 own species. It can be from another genre. So you'll 807 00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:48,800 see people kind of keep like a little specimeny type aquariums, 808 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,559 which I don't like. I think that they're so important 809 00:43:51,559 --> 00:43:56,000 to have breeding here because they're so delicate for international export. 810 00:43:56,079 --> 00:43:58,559 Like they have that thirty six hour perishable good window. 811 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:00,719 So if your system or they're in a bag for 812 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,119 thirty six hours, I think past that you're going to 813 00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:05,280 run into health. Fish is like they begin to die 814 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,559 get high d away, So if they make it here, 815 00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:11,159 it's important to establish them. So I think they're critical 816 00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:13,119 to getting on a lot of the Florida farms and 817 00:44:13,199 --> 00:44:16,079 Texas farms in addition to some of the rainbow fish 818 00:44:16,119 --> 00:44:18,599 and rice fish we'll talk about in another episode. 819 00:44:18,599 --> 00:44:23,280 Speaker 2: But yeah, now that sounds good. Yeah, colorful community fish. Yeah, 820 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,320 we'll definitely talk more in another interview, but unfortunately we 821 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,159 are out of time. I did want to thank you 822 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,440 Sam and our producer Mark Winner for making the show possible. Sam, 823 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,760 do you give any real quick words of wisdom, final 824 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,440 thoughts and we'll get more of your thoughts in another interview. 825 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:42,639 Speaker 5: I would just say, keep those aquariums mature before you 826 00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:45,320 get the fish, buy them from a reputable breeder. So 827 00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:49,280 rather than spend twelve dollars for a sickly borneo sucker 828 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,079 at your local fish store that just popped in, and 829 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,440 I'd look for a breeder or a repuable importer like me. 830 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,480 Marcel's fish is also really good. He breeds a lot 831 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,280 of really great sowell. Ya. There's a band called Roseline 832 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,440 Seventeen's Hillstream Loaches where you can buy some o the rare. 833 00:45:05,679 --> 00:45:08,360 Well ya, if you get into those and think you 834 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,679 starting to breed some of the fish, I saw them 835 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,400 so hideworm. I clean all my fish, so I'm also 836 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,119 a repuable placed. I'd also recommend dance fish in what 837 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,639 spot and then if Imperial Tropicals ever has them in 838 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,920 they're also good too. Oh okay, yeah, sounds good. Hillstream 839 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,880 Kingdom dot com and I have a new shipment coming 840 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,199 in at the beginning of August and there'll be some 841 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,400 very colorful, uh pretty rare China fish in that, so 842 00:45:33,639 --> 00:45:36,039 I'm going to have those Sejiang fish back. 843 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 2: Well. Thanks. Please be sure to check out Sam's weblinks 844 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,719 we'll have on his Aquarium Innia episode guest page. If 845 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,320 you have any questions, comments, or ideas for a show, 846 00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:48,800 email me at doctor Roy at petlfe radio dot com. 847 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,199 That's d R R O Y at petlfe radio dot com. 848 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,199 Until next time, please visit your local cram stores and 849 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,039 keep your tanks clean and your fish healthy, and definitely 850 00:45:58,119 --> 00:46:01,039 check out the beautiful Hillstream loaches in cool Fish available 851 00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:02,960 at Pillscream Kingdom's LLC. 852 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 4: Let's Talk Pets every week on demand only on Petlive 853 00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:23,840 Radios dot com.