WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Well, hello there, my name's Ben.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked and Grim, a

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<v Speaker 2>true crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Warning, the following podcast material intended warman's your audience, the

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<v Speaker 1>listener just question.

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<v Speaker 2>For some reason, you like caught me off guard at

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<v Speaker 2>that intro. I did, like I was just sitting here

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<v Speaker 2>drinking my tea and be like, oh shit, this is

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<v Speaker 2>what we're doing.

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<v Speaker 1>You watched me hit record.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't action. My MIC's in the way. I can't see.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you're staring at your microphone, man, I guess is

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<v Speaker 1>it an interesting microphone? How's that vantage point?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Well, you know I have micshus in my face.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that's because it is face. It's right there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, welcome to wicketing ground. How's everyone doing. We're actually

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<v Speaker 2>drinking hot drinks today, not alcohol. I was freezing. I

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<v Speaker 2>need a tea.

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<v Speaker 1>I am tired. I needed coffee.

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<v Speaker 2>There you go, yeah boom.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're recording early today.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, we're basically like, got our homework done early

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<v Speaker 2>for once in our lives.

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<v Speaker 1>Instead of recording the day before the podcast night before,

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<v Speaker 1>the night before, literally hours before, we're actually a whole

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<v Speaker 1>day ahead. It's Sunday right now.

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<v Speaker 2>Sunday Night.

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<v Speaker 1>Good for us, high five.

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<v Speaker 2>And this one five I hit my mic way to go.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm actually really proud of us, Like, seriously, we deserve

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<v Speaker 2>that patent on the back.

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<v Speaker 1>We do, we do oneundred percent. We also need a

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<v Speaker 1>pat in the back for something else that's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>What's that The website that.

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<v Speaker 2>We're starting that you're doing, it looks freaking bab.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's pretty blah right now.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought it looked good.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you. I appreciate that it's bare bones at

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<v Speaker 1>this moment, and I'm sure by the time we get

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<v Speaker 1>it updated. We're starting to updated, but uploaded and out

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<v Speaker 1>there on the interwebs for people to go visit, it's

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<v Speaker 1>still gonna be pretty bare bones and we'll just develop

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<v Speaker 1>it over time. But to get something.

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<v Speaker 2>Out there, it doesn't have to be fancy.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's not gonna be fancy.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not fancy, but I mean, like, it's not.

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<v Speaker 1>Going to have a bunch of stuff on it. It's

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<v Speaker 1>going to be pretty basic. You can listen to the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast episodes on there. We're gonna have a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of a blog that we're not going to post a

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<v Speaker 1>lot on, but we will post some updates that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of stuff, some little bit of behind the scenes for

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<v Speaker 1>you guys, and other.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff, stuff and things, stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And things and things and stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>There you go. It sounds awesome. Everyone's going to want

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<v Speaker 2>to check it out exactly just like our description, just

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<v Speaker 2>like everyone's gonna run.

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<v Speaker 1>We sold it. We sold it. We're going to be

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<v Speaker 1>a whole Netflix series here seeing with this website, just

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<v Speaker 1>people like, oh my god, get them on Netflix and

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<v Speaker 1>need a show speaking a show. Actually that was a

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<v Speaker 1>good like interlude with this.

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<v Speaker 2>What was actually transitions ad on the back. Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>So we started doing a little bit of logging today. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so we're going to post stuff on a YouTube channel soon.

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<v Speaker 1>We were going to give that out to you guys soon.

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<v Speaker 1>We don't even know the name of It's not gonna

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<v Speaker 1>be Wickeding Graham, I don't think, because it's going to

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<v Speaker 1>involve like more lifestyle lifestyle stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, because the blog today was like just a

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<v Speaker 2>shit show really of our life. It was because our

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<v Speaker 2>life is kind of a shit show right now, and

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<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to say too. Our tiny home is

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<v Speaker 2>officially started being built.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, the constructions being built.

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<v Speaker 2>We got photos on Friday.

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<v Speaker 1>It was unreal and We talked about that in the

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<v Speaker 1>blog that we're going to get up hopefully soon, but

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<v Speaker 1>god knows when.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's super cool. It's yeah, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>bit of an interesting blog, but it's still that's just

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<v Speaker 2>what our life is right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. You can tell we're tired, you can tell we're

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<v Speaker 1>run down. You can tell we're also like excited for

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm like, this close to being on the verge

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<v Speaker 2>is starting to drink coffee, Like shit, we're getting there

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<v Speaker 2>by the end of the summer. I might be drinking coffee.

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<v Speaker 1>We need to get you. We need to get a

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<v Speaker 1>French press so you can have actual like delicious.

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<v Speaker 2>It's coming. I need it. It's coming. And then one

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<v Speaker 2>more quick thing. So much to talk about. We had

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<v Speaker 2>our giveaway we did, which was super cool. Thanks for

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<v Speaker 2>entering every one.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm actually pretty pumped to give this away.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we're gonna announce it tomorrow or Monday, but

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<v Speaker 2>then you guys will be hearing this on Tuesday, so

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<v Speaker 2>it's already announced the winner, So.

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<v Speaker 1>Hour tomorrow, but you're yesterday if you're listening to this

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<v Speaker 1>on Tuesday, Yes, tomorrow or Monday, we're posting it on Instagram.

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<v Speaker 1>The winner. It's already been closed, but the winter is

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<v Speaker 1>being announced Monday.

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<v Speaker 2>So congrats early. Congrats to them.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I thought you're almost gonna say it. Just congrats

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<v Speaker 1>to them. Don't say who, don't give it away.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not. I want to, but I'm not. I'm keeping

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<v Speaker 2>a secret for once in my life.

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<v Speaker 1>Congratulations. So all this craziness aside, Are you ready for

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<v Speaker 1>the story?

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<v Speaker 2>I am, because I will. You've given me a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of a hints, but I've never heard of this,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm pretty calmed.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, this one. This is the story of a girl

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<v Speaker 1>crowded river and drowned the whole. Sorry, I've been wanting

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<v Speaker 1>to do that since we started this podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm into it already. Let's go.

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<v Speaker 1>She looks so sad and photographs and.

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<v Speaker 2>What No, who is it again?

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<v Speaker 1>It's some bands, it's not. It's a dude singer.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. Well, you like Avrilvine, so I thought.

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<v Speaker 1>It was just love Avril. She's my girl. She's my girl.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not afraid to admit that you're not. But anyways,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the story of a girl.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's at it is.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a story of who put bella in the

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<v Speaker 1>witch elm. This is a mystery that has been baffling

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<v Speaker 1>people for years. Ke we just jumped up as a

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<v Speaker 1>as a visitor here. So he may bump microphones.

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<v Speaker 2>He's doing good so far.

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<v Speaker 1>So far, he might he might bother you, but he's

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<v Speaker 1>he's an attention horror. Let's put it that way.

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<v Speaker 2>He likes his attention.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep. Okay, So let's get into this on who put

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<v Speaker 1>Bella in the witch ow Wow? Okay, Okay. So on

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<v Speaker 1>April eighteenth, nineteen forty three, at the height of the

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<v Speaker 1>Second World War, four boys were in the area of

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<v Speaker 1>Witchbury Hill. This is a hill situated off Birmingham Road

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<v Speaker 1>in Worcestershire, England. Okay, I thought, I totally thought it

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<v Speaker 1>was going to be pe.

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<v Speaker 2>She did that really good because I almost cringed for you.

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<v Speaker 1>That's like one of the worst words to pus in

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<v Speaker 1>the English language. I nailed.

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<v Speaker 2>I would honestly probably not even do the case if

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<v Speaker 2>I had to say that, fucking.

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<v Speaker 1>World, that's that's a legitimate response right there. I was

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<v Speaker 1>mortified about it. I think I think that's the only

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<v Speaker 1>time I put it in here, So I think I'm

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<v Speaker 1>good from here on the job. So anyways, the four

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<v Speaker 1>boys were Robert Hart, Thomas Willette's, Bob Farmer, and Fred Payne. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>now these four boys that were out poaching and bird nesting,

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<v Speaker 1>Okay in the Hagley Wood.

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<v Speaker 2>What does that mean? Bird nesting?

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<v Speaker 1>I'll get into it here in a second.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, in Hagley Wood, which is like this specific forested

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<v Speaker 1>area Okay, and it's a part of the Hagley Estate

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<v Speaker 1>which belongs to Lord Cobham near Witchbury Hill. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>this estate land owned by this dude basically, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>private property.

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<v Speaker 2>So okay, Yeah, I was just going to say they're

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<v Speaker 2>like trespassing basically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Okay, So like the poaching and bird nesting, it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't an uncommon thing really because we're talking World War two,

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<v Speaker 1>which is like people are low on rations, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>families are pretty poverty stricken sort of thing. So basically

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<v Speaker 1>what they're doing is they're going out searching and raiding

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<v Speaker 1>bird nests for eggs.

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<v Speaker 2>Really.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they're trying to they're scavenging for food where

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<v Speaker 1>they can't, it's what they're doing. So, yeah, they're out

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<v Speaker 1>trying to find fine eggs for their families and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of sad, it is. I can't imagine having

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<v Speaker 1>to go through a time where you're actually out looking

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<v Speaker 1>for eggs just to survive.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because I can't imagine it's like tasty that the

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<v Speaker 2>eggs are finding.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean depends on the eggs really, but I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I mean food is food at that point

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<v Speaker 1>in time, right, Okay. So while they're out looking in

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<v Speaker 1>the woods and searching for these these nests and eggs,

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<v Speaker 1>they came across a large witch elm tree, which would

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<v Speaker 1>be an ideal location for birds to nest in. So

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<v Speaker 1>one of the boys, Bob, began to climb the tree

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<v Speaker 1>and look for a nest. As he climbed, he glanced

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<v Speaker 1>down into the hollow trunk of the tree and saw

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<v Speaker 1>a skull sitting in the darkness.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be such a scary sight.

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<v Speaker 1>It I can't imagine. I would have shit myself.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I would have fallen out of the tree,

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<v Speaker 2>broke a leg.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't shit himself, He didn't fall out a tree,

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't break a leg. At first, he actually thought

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<v Speaker 1>it was an animal skull. Oh, may have crawled in

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<v Speaker 1>the tree, you know, to like die of old age.

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<v Speaker 1>Or something like that, or whatever it may be. He

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<v Speaker 1>quickly realized that when he grabbed the skull to pick

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<v Speaker 1>it up, there was long hair attached and the human

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<v Speaker 1>teeth gave way, just for him to realize it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>an animal, it was human remains.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh man, okay, So like the hair stays attached with

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<v Speaker 2>these skulls.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, like think like dried skin and stuff like. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like when you find a bone, there's stuff stuck to it.

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<v Speaker 1>Still it's not perfectly bleached clean, depending on how long

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<v Speaker 1>it's been there.

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<v Speaker 2>I gah.

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<v Speaker 1>So there was still hair, not fully attached, but there

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<v Speaker 1>was still hair attached to the skull.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't really know if I've really seen anything like that,

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't. I have no idea.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got a picture I can show you later, okay, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>an actual picture of the skull that was found. So really,

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<v Speaker 1>so we already went over this. The boys were doing

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<v Speaker 1>a few things wrong here. They were trespassing on property.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah right, so they're poaching like it's it's not They

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<v Speaker 1>weren't doing things they're supposed to be doing. So they

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<v Speaker 1>ended up putting the skull back, and the four boys

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<v Speaker 1>decided they were they would return home and they wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>mention their discovery to anybody, really to remain a secret

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<v Speaker 1>between the four boys.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's kind of shocking, but.

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<v Speaker 1>We all know what happens when you're like, we're not

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk, it's going to be a secret. Someone talks.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, always when they're young, right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe they were like young teenagers, like fourteen or

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<v Speaker 1>something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's not going to get held in.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So once they got home, the youngest boy, Thomas,

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't like what happened. He didn't sit easy with them, right,

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<v Speaker 1>so he reported what he found to his parents. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>his parents in turn quickly called the police, and the

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<v Speaker 1>Hagley Wood quickly transformed from a quiet, somber forest into

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<v Speaker 1>a sorrow and active crime scene.

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<v Speaker 2>M dun dun dum. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't imagine just being out in the bush with

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<v Speaker 1>the boys kind of things, hanging out with the friends,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're just like, we just found a dead body.

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<v Speaker 2>I know.

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<v Speaker 1>That seems to happen a lot in Hollywood though.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's honestly too. How like a lot of bodies

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<v Speaker 2>are found though it's like people well going for a

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<v Speaker 2>walk or something, or like fishing or something, and they

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<v Speaker 2>come across like like, if I ever found a dead body,

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<v Speaker 2>I would I think that would haunt me for a

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<v Speaker 2>life probably, Like that's terrifying.

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<v Speaker 1>So they found a dead body. Imagine going for a run,

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<v Speaker 1>your morning run, you find a dead body. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>these boys are doing. That's yeah, happened, that's what they're

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<v Speaker 1>going through.

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<v Speaker 2>Yikes.

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<v Speaker 1>So the skull that was found clearly is valuable evidence

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<v Speaker 1>in that it's still had some tots of hair. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you can have some DNA could show what the person

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<v Speaker 1>may have looked like. Whatever that is.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and I'm just gonna say it's good that they

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<v Speaker 2>probably said something because they touched or the one boil

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<v Speaker 2>least touched it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, well, I've seen mixed reports on it. That's

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<v Speaker 1>why I didn't include this on the air. How they

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<v Speaker 1>picked it up. Some reports said they picked it up

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<v Speaker 1>with a stick. Oh okay, so I wasn't. I couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>find definitive answers on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to just grab it.

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<v Speaker 1>And this isn't the forties two. I'm not too sure

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<v Speaker 1>how fingerprints necessarily worse true. So they also had dental

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<v Speaker 1>patterns despite some missing teeth. But the police, hold on,

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<v Speaker 1>I totally missed my sentence up, messed my sentence up there,

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<v Speaker 1>that's right, Okakay, So yeah, they still had a clear

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<v Speaker 1>dental pattern despite some missing teeth. Okay, there we go.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how old this person is.

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<v Speaker 1>We're getting into it. So the police not only pulled

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<v Speaker 1>a skull from the witch Elm hollow, there was also

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<v Speaker 1>an entire skeleton inside the tree. The only thing that

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<v Speaker 1>was missing was a hand. Further investigation revealed a trail

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<v Speaker 1>of finger bones scattered around the outside of the tree

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<v Speaker 1>as well, to make up said missing hand.

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<v Speaker 2>Really yep, that's kind of odd.

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<v Speaker 1>Definitely, And there's that kind of plays into some theories later.

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<v Speaker 2>On too, like that's really weird. Just they removed their

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<v Speaker 2>fingers and sprinkled it around the friggin tree like it

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<v Speaker 2>was sparkles.

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<v Speaker 1>It was sparkling, like just some very dust.

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<v Speaker 2>It's weird.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there's some we'll get into it later. But one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things is it could potentially be animal even right,

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00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.559
<v Speaker 1>animals could have gotten to the bones, So, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't know for sure. Police also found clothing remnants,

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00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.440
<v Speaker 1>a shoe, inside the tree, and the other shoe was

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00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:23.039
<v Speaker 1>outside the tree, a gold wedding ring and some costume

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00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:29.080
<v Speaker 1>jewelry on and around the remnants. Aside from these few clues,

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<v Speaker 1>there was no solid evidence that could identify the body,

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<v Speaker 1>and until an autopsy was performed, there is no way

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00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:38.559
<v Speaker 1>of knowing how long that body had actually been hidden

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00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:43.279
<v Speaker 1>inside the witch elm interesting. So now we're starting to

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<v Speaker 1>get into a little bit more of the body. Now

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00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:46.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to be able to answer some things, like

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking about with age.

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<v Speaker 2>I have like a million questions, like I'm not honestly

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<v Speaker 2>holding back so much.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, hit me with a couple of questions. I'm not

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00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:56.879
<v Speaker 1>going to answer them right now. Just hit me and

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00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:57.879
<v Speaker 1>let's see what's on your mind.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm curious, Well, I want to know how old they are?

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00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:06.919
<v Speaker 2>For one now they've all left me for some reason.

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<v Speaker 1>Just how old are they now?

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00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.679
<v Speaker 2>No, there was another one that was like burning and

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00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:13.279
<v Speaker 2>I put it aside. Oh my gosh, what the heck

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00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:17.840
<v Speaker 2>was it? Oh it's gone, it's gone.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Okay, it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Going to come back to me and I'm going to

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00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:21.240
<v Speaker 2>intrupt you and ask.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh great, okay, Well, moving on from that, Once the

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00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:29.279
<v Speaker 1>remains were recovered from the tree, medical examiner professional sorry

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00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Professor James Webster was called in to investigate. He discovered

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00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:37.399
<v Speaker 1>a number of crucial facts about the remains. He was

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00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.960
<v Speaker 1>able to identify the body was female remains.

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00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that was one question.

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<v Speaker 1>He believed the woman had passed away approximately eighteen months

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00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.279
<v Speaker 1>prior to being discovered, so that would put it in

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00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:53.120
<v Speaker 1>October of nineteen forty one. Okay, yeah, which provided months

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00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.360
<v Speaker 1>a fairly specific timeline to police, which was good.

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00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.039
<v Speaker 2>Because my other question was like, could could they just

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00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.120
<v Speaker 2>have crawled in there and then got stuck and then died.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's not even foul play. That was my other thing.

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00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.480
<v Speaker 1>That kind of gets into some theories which I didn't

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00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:11.000
<v Speaker 1>really touch on that one specifically, but there was some

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<v Speaker 1>talk about a person climbing in there on their own,

329
00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.360
<v Speaker 1>and they wouldn't have been able to do so without

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<v Speaker 1>severely harming themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, Okay.

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00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:28.399
<v Speaker 1>Theoretically so okay, Okay. Anyway, I wasn't supposed to answer

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00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:30.120
<v Speaker 1>your question, should I just did? Damn it?

334
00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:34.000
<v Speaker 2>I that have been last episode two.

335
00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:35.120
<v Speaker 1>We're bad for that.

336
00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're bad. We just like to answer each other

337
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:37.919
<v Speaker 2>or something wrong with that.

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00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.600
<v Speaker 1>No, okay, moving on, moving on, and not answering your

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00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:44.000
<v Speaker 1>questions anymore. Listen to the story, figure it out, okay, okay.

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00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:46.720
<v Speaker 1>So Professor Webster also deduced that the woman had met

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00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:49.960
<v Speaker 1>her and close to the scene. He realized that with

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00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:51.960
<v Speaker 1>the small opening in the hollow of the witch elm,

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00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:53.960
<v Speaker 1>she wouldn't have been able to be put inside the

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00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:57.879
<v Speaker 1>tree after the body had the effects of rigamortis. In

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00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.799
<v Speaker 1>other words, her body had been shoved inside the witch

346
00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:05.120
<v Speaker 1>elm still warm, which does lead people into that theory

347
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:06.799
<v Speaker 1>of maybe she got in there on her own.

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00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, so interesting.

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00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.519
<v Speaker 1>And there is a quote here actually from the medical examiner,

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00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.639
<v Speaker 1>Professor James Webster. It's an excellent place for the concealment

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00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.360
<v Speaker 1>of a murder, and I think it indicates local knowledge.

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00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, that does actually seem like an awesome place to

353
00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:25.919
<v Speaker 2>store a body.

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00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:27.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And if you look at like what a witch

355
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.399
<v Speaker 1>elm looks like, it's not really any tree that you

356
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.120
<v Speaker 1>would think of. It's almost like this big mass of

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00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.759
<v Speaker 1>jumbled twigs and branches, and like the trunk is super thick,

358
00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:40.600
<v Speaker 1>but it's made up of like almost several different trees.

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00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.879
<v Speaker 1>Oh and then it's like fairly stumpy with like major

360
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:46.720
<v Speaker 1>branches going out, so it's like this crazy mass of

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00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.559
<v Speaker 1>shit and it'd be a great place to put a body.

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00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Are you gonna post a picture of what it like?

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00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.200
<v Speaker 2>A tree like that looks like? Yeah? Probably could, at

364
00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.600
<v Speaker 2>least in our stories because I'm intrigued or I.

365
00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:00.240
<v Speaker 1>Mean, if you're not wanting to see her Instagram, there's

366
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.799
<v Speaker 1>always Google. But yeah, I'll definitely at least Instagram. I

367
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:09.039
<v Speaker 1>was trying to be nice and not push our social media. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So Professor Webster's finding also indicated that the woman had

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<v Speaker 1>been approximately thirty five years old at the time of

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<v Speaker 1>her death.

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00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:17.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's pretty young.

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00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.039
<v Speaker 1>She had light brown hair and had been found to

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<v Speaker 1>have given birth to one child, and her skeleton measured

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00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:29.359
<v Speaker 1>just five sorry I wrote that funny, just five feet

375
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:29.960
<v Speaker 1>in height.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh.

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00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.880
<v Speaker 1>Her bones also showed that she had no signs of

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00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:38.960
<v Speaker 1>disease or trauma, but her lower jaw showed natural irregularities

379
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:44.039
<v Speaker 1>and distinctive overlapping front teeth on the bottom. So because

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00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.799
<v Speaker 1>of these irregularities in the jaw, police were confident they

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00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:49.359
<v Speaker 1>were they would soon establish her identity.

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00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, I was like, what does that mean. Okay,

383
00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:52.079
<v Speaker 2>So she's.

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00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Got fairly distinctive bottom teeth.

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00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:56.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, and she's quite short too.

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00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Yep, exactly. And there was actually one tooth that had

387
00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.519
<v Speaker 1>recently been pulled. I didn't put this in here, but

388
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.200
<v Speaker 1>it's worth noting. Oh, okay, there's one tooth that was

389
00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.799
<v Speaker 1>actually recently pulled to they're confident that maybe they could

390
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.160
<v Speaker 1>find a dental record of some way missing, you know.

391
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.200
<v Speaker 1>With this dental record, it seemed like a good place

392
00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:16.240
<v Speaker 1>where they're going to be able to find who this

393
00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:16.799
<v Speaker 1>person is.

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00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:20.279
<v Speaker 2>And I should say she's petite, not short, because there's

395
00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:21.160
<v Speaker 2>nothing wrong.

396
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.440
<v Speaker 1>With being VI space efficient there.

397
00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:27.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and she's a mom. Yeah, so yeah, there's quite

398
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.319
<v Speaker 2>a little details there, definitely.

399
00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:33.680
<v Speaker 1>So these facts were of course crucial, all these facts

400
00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:36.960
<v Speaker 1>that we've been talking about to the investigation. The determining

401
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:41.359
<v Speaker 1>facts exactly on what made her meet her end was

402
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:45.319
<v Speaker 1>more difficult than anticipated, though it was not certain exactly

403
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.920
<v Speaker 1>the cause of her death there, but there was a

404
00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.079
<v Speaker 1>piece of taffaa found shoved in her mouth and taffida.

405
00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:53.000
<v Speaker 1>I had had.

406
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.240
<v Speaker 2>To google this, okay, I was like, because I don't

407
00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.200
<v Speaker 2>know what that is taffaa.

408
00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:01.559
<v Speaker 1>And this is directly from Google believe it was Wikipedia. Uh,

409
00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:05.000
<v Speaker 1>this is defined as a fine, lustrous silk or similar

410
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:09.119
<v Speaker 1>synthetic fabric with a crisp texture. So the piece of

411
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:10.359
<v Speaker 1>cloth basically.

412
00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Okay, like she could have gotten it, what would that

413
00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.519
<v Speaker 2>be called it? Have it over her mouth or whatever,

414
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:20.400
<v Speaker 2>like exphyxiated, exsixiating. Yeah, that's what I was trying to

415
00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:22.000
<v Speaker 2>think of it. I was like, it was not grumb

416
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:22.519
<v Speaker 2>into my brain.

417
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.240
<v Speaker 1>My next line here. This led investigators to believe the

418
00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:28.519
<v Speaker 1>cause of her death may have been exphyxiation. Okay, but

419
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.519
<v Speaker 1>but one thing though, this cloth is where did this

420
00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:33.799
<v Speaker 1>come from? It's not matching her clothes or anything. It's

421
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:38.079
<v Speaker 1>just this random cloth shoved in her throat. So kind

422
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.599
<v Speaker 1>of weird, kind of suss if you ask me.

423
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I feel like if you were doing that

424
00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.160
<v Speaker 2>to someone, you'd take whatever you had that you were

425
00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:51.400
<v Speaker 2>doing it with. Yeah, I don't I would anyway. I

426
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.519
<v Speaker 2>don't know what that says about me, but I am minded.

427
00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:57.200
<v Speaker 1>You're careful, you're going to cover your track. But I mean,

428
00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.119
<v Speaker 1>if it was someone who shoved it down her throat

429
00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:00.960
<v Speaker 1>and then they shoved, we're in a witch elm. They're like,

430
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:02.079
<v Speaker 1>no one's ever going to find her.

431
00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:05.160
<v Speaker 2>That's true. They probably and especially eighteen months later, like,

432
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.599
<v Speaker 2>actually that's not that long. They probably anticipated it would

433
00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:10.839
<v Speaker 2>have been way longer, probably years and years.

434
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, private property often in this bush on this trun

435
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.640
<v Speaker 1>never found. Probably exactly. I would have thought if it

436
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:18.640
<v Speaker 1>was me put in that body there, but like, good luck,

437
00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:19.559
<v Speaker 1>not happening.

438
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

439
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.039
<v Speaker 1>But if there's anything that this podcast is teaching me,

440
00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.799
<v Speaker 1>it's that, Yeah, you need to cover your tracks because

441
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:27.720
<v Speaker 1>you're gonna get caught.

442
00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:30.160
<v Speaker 2>So you are.

443
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:34.519
<v Speaker 1>So clearly police were keen to establish an identity of

444
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.559
<v Speaker 1>the female victim, and of course the identity of someone

445
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.000
<v Speaker 1>who may or may not have murdered said victim.

446
00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Right.

447
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.119
<v Speaker 1>This pushed them to actually put and publish a probable

448
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:48.119
<v Speaker 1>description of the victim out in the paper in hopes

449
00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.759
<v Speaker 1>that the public may help find this individual, and they

450
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:55.480
<v Speaker 1>published it on April twenty fourth, nineteen forty three. Okay,

451
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.599
<v Speaker 1>and this is what the probable description said. Her age

452
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.039
<v Speaker 1>is given as between twenty five and forty most probably

453
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.039
<v Speaker 1>thirty five, height, five feet, with light brown hair, and

454
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.880
<v Speaker 1>dressed in dark blue and mustard colored striped cardigan and

455
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:15.240
<v Speaker 1>mustard colored skirt, blue crape soule shoes size five and

456
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.920
<v Speaker 1>a half. All the garments were described as poor quality,

457
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.000
<v Speaker 1>and a wedding ring found among the bones of was

458
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:23.799
<v Speaker 1>of rolled gold.

459
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.960
<v Speaker 2>That's a really good description. It is like really good.

460
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:30.799
<v Speaker 1>So that's what they had to go on for the

461
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:32.920
<v Speaker 1>public to be kind of helping them and try and

462
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.720
<v Speaker 1>get identified for this person. Okay, the description didn't lead

463
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:39.759
<v Speaker 1>to much. It did lead to some tips being called

464
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.079
<v Speaker 1>in and such, but none of them really came out

465
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.839
<v Speaker 1>with helpful information after being investigated. So they were kind

466
00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.920
<v Speaker 1>of just dead ends and no one really.

467
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:50.359
<v Speaker 2>Had which is sure interesting because I feel like just

468
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.079
<v Speaker 2>the fact alone that she was wearing a wedding ring

469
00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:56.440
<v Speaker 2>that someone you think would be missing.

470
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Her would think huh Okay, I'm.

471
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.519
<v Speaker 2>Very totally Some answers like I know you said this

472
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:04.079
<v Speaker 2>is a mystery, but I'm like, I need to know

473
00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:04.799
<v Speaker 2>a bit more here.

474
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's see where we go. So we already talked

475
00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.559
<v Speaker 1>about the dental record. While they were investigating leads from

476
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.640
<v Speaker 1>the call ins, police were also chasing the dental records, okay,

477
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:17.680
<v Speaker 1>and like I said, the distinctive protruding teeth. They were

478
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.519
<v Speaker 1>hoping that no, we got someone who should be fairly identifiable,

479
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:24.559
<v Speaker 1>but it was to no avail. They couldn't find anything

480
00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:31.799
<v Speaker 1>in dental records. Useless, useless dang. Yeah, so gang dang.

481
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:35.920
<v Speaker 1>But her dental records also became a point of contention

482
00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.880
<v Speaker 1>though for some who believed that this woman may have

483
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.519
<v Speaker 1>actually not been from the British area at all.

484
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh, okay, that can actually super explain it.

485
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:49.160
<v Speaker 1>Then, yeah, I mean, there's no dental records of her

486
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:50.119
<v Speaker 1>around here or anything.

487
00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:53.200
<v Speaker 2>So because even if she was from a different area

488
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:58.200
<v Speaker 2>and was reported missing, the local police might not have

489
00:22:58.200 --> 00:22:59.319
<v Speaker 2>no idea exactly.

490
00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:01.720
<v Speaker 1>So we're going to get into a little bit of

491
00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:04.000
<v Speaker 1>that later on. The theories are.

492
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:05.759
<v Speaker 2>At the end, okay interesting.

493
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.559
<v Speaker 1>They also tediously searched through piles and piles of missing

494
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.039
<v Speaker 1>persons reports to see if any of them matched the

495
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.480
<v Speaker 1>description of the deceased, but again there were no leads.

496
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:17.920
<v Speaker 1>And I can only imagine going through the missing person's

497
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.400
<v Speaker 1>reports for that because we're talking World War II here.

498
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.400
<v Speaker 1>How many missing persons do you think there are?

499
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:29.839
<v Speaker 2>No kidding? So, yeah, that definitely adds to it, doesn't it. Yep,

500
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:31.319
<v Speaker 2>never thought about that.

501
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:35.839
<v Speaker 1>So the investigation then turned towards the personal effects found

502
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.359
<v Speaker 1>on the scene. The crape. Sold shoes were traced to

503
00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:43.920
<v Speaker 1>a company called Waterfoot Company in Lancashire, England. Investigators were

504
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.319
<v Speaker 1>able to actually find all but six pairs of shoes

505
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:50.240
<v Speaker 1>that were sold from a market's stall in Dudley, a

506
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:54.279
<v Speaker 1>town approximately eighteen kilometers from Birmingham where the remains were found,

507
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.920
<v Speaker 1>but they didn't find all the shoes or like where

508
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:00.200
<v Speaker 1>they all went to, so they couldn't find one of

509
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:01.960
<v Speaker 1>the victims that it was sold, which happened to be

510
00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:06.759
<v Speaker 1>this body in the tree. So dang again a cold trail, Huh.

511
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:08.880
<v Speaker 2>They're like doing so much.

512
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.759
<v Speaker 1>Here, they are doing a lot and everything is cold. Yes,

513
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:16.079
<v Speaker 1>everything's cold. The complexity of this like investigation just meant

514
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:18.839
<v Speaker 1>like everything was getting colder by every week that went past,

515
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.759
<v Speaker 1>and it was ridiculous. The numerous tragedies over war actually

516
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:28.400
<v Speaker 1>like swallowed up the focus on this case. Though. What

517
00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:31.079
<v Speaker 1>actually happened is because they're not making any progress on

518
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.680
<v Speaker 1>this case, people are getting distracted, not really talking about

519
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:38.759
<v Speaker 1>it much, and it just kind of almost forgotten about

520
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:39.720
<v Speaker 1>and pushed aside.

521
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh really, hey, yeah, because that is honestly one thing

522
00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:44.720
<v Speaker 2>that probably helps so much, well, it helps with like

523
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:46.079
<v Speaker 2>anything really is word of mouth.

524
00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Hey, yeah, exactly. So there was an inquest for what

525
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.000
<v Speaker 1>was being called the Tree murder riddle at the time,

526
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:58.319
<v Speaker 1>and the verdict returned as murder by some person or

527
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:02.359
<v Speaker 1>person's unknown, and that seemed to be the end of

528
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:03.319
<v Speaker 1>the case.

529
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.119
<v Speaker 2>Until Okay, I'm like, well that's not satisfying for me.

530
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:09.359
<v Speaker 2>Can we go on a little more?

531
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:13.640
<v Speaker 1>There's a little more here. Until Christmas of nineteen forty three,

532
00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:18.160
<v Speaker 1>the case took an even more perplexing twist, which was

533
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:22.319
<v Speaker 1>about six months after the investigation started, mysterious graffiti began

534
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:27.079
<v Speaker 1>to appear in the area, chalked on a wall of

535
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.039
<v Speaker 1>an empty premises in Birmingham, where the words who put

536
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:34.359
<v Speaker 1>Bella down? The witch elm Hagleywood.

537
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:36.119
<v Speaker 2>Whoa.

538
00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.119
<v Speaker 1>This marked the first time the mysterious murdered woman had

539
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:39.839
<v Speaker 1>been given a.

540
00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:41.799
<v Speaker 2>Name name Yeah, because I'm like, they had no.

541
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Idea in her name, they had no idea her name,

542
00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:46.039
<v Speaker 1>and all of a sudden, she's now being called.

543
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.279
<v Speaker 2>Belle Ella, which I actually really liked that name.

544
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:50.000
<v Speaker 1>It's a nice name.

545
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:51.200
<v Speaker 2>It's a really nice name.

546
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.240
<v Speaker 1>So the writing on the wall was considered to be

547
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:55.960
<v Speaker 1>too high for any of the young kids in the

548
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.039
<v Speaker 1>area or anything to just be doing a harmless prank.

549
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.079
<v Speaker 1>So it was considered that it was an adult doing

550
00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:03.960
<v Speaker 1>this and they took it very seriously.

551
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, because this adult obviously had some inside ing

552
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:09.279
<v Speaker 2>bo if it.

553
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:16.559
<v Speaker 1>Was accurate, because it Oh my god, look at that.

554
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:17.200
<v Speaker 1>It's true.

555
00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:18.599
<v Speaker 2>Her name's Bella.

556
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.880
<v Speaker 1>So shortly after Descrubb discovering the writing, another message was

557
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:28.759
<v Speaker 1>actually discovered. It had been reported months prior to this one,

558
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.240
<v Speaker 1>but had yacht net but had not yet been connected

559
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:34.759
<v Speaker 1>to the case, making this the first connected but the

560
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.240
<v Speaker 1>second one in the series of graffitis.

561
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:38.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh.

562
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:42.799
<v Speaker 1>The other message that was done months prior read who

563
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.599
<v Speaker 1>put Lubella down? The witch Elm And it was on

564
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.759
<v Speaker 1>a house on Hayden Hill Road not far from the area.

565
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.559
<v Speaker 2>And this was even before Okay, wait, would that have

566
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:56.119
<v Speaker 2>been before the body was found?

567
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.680
<v Speaker 1>No, it was after, because this.

568
00:26:57.960 --> 00:26:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay right, it was like six months later.

569
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it would have been. I couldn't find exactly

570
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:04.960
<v Speaker 1>when the first one on the house was written, so

571
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm assuming it's probably like three months or something like

572
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.319
<v Speaker 1>that after the body was found, And then when the

573
00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:13.920
<v Speaker 1>second one was found six months later, they realized that

574
00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:17.519
<v Speaker 1>the first one was also part of it. So Yeah,

575
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.799
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a topsy turvy thing going on there.

576
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:21.279
<v Speaker 1>But we have two messages discovered.

577
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, someone's playing with them.

578
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.359
<v Speaker 1>Yep. Now, both these messages were done in the exact

579
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.920
<v Speaker 1>same handwriting and the spelling for which ELM was done

580
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:39.160
<v Speaker 1>exactly correct, because which elm isn't witch, it's wyh.

581
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh really yes, okay.

582
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:42.039
<v Speaker 1>So they both were in the same handwriting and spelled

583
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:44.559
<v Speaker 1>the name of the tree correct, which most people would

584
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:45.599
<v Speaker 1>spell it incorrect.

585
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:46.240
<v Speaker 2>Huh.

586
00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:50.279
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, So it gave police very good reason to suspect

587
00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 1>that this was the same person, and they had good

588
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:59.240
<v Speaker 1>knowledge of what may have happened. Yeah, so now people

589
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:01.599
<v Speaker 1>were on the lookout for someone named Bella and they

590
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.640
<v Speaker 1>were once again looking for the public's help. So in

591
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:07.759
<v Speaker 1>nineteen forty four, more messages actually began to appear with

592
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:11.039
<v Speaker 1>similar writings and words, but eventually they began to all

593
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:14.440
<v Speaker 1>say the same thing. Who put Bella in the witch Elm.

594
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.559
<v Speaker 1>To this day, they haven't been able to identify Bella,

595
00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:26.319
<v Speaker 1>and the graffiti artist is also unidentified. I did find

596
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:31.680
<v Speaker 1>one I did find one source. It was a YouTube

597
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:34.000
<v Speaker 1>video where I can't remember the channel, but it was

598
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.359
<v Speaker 1>this YouTube video very well populated YouTube channel. They claimed

599
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:40.440
<v Speaker 1>that the graffiti artist was found and it was just

600
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:44.400
<v Speaker 1>some random dude fucking with the police. They had no sources.

601
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.039
<v Speaker 1>I searched up and down. I couldn't find any source

602
00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:50.960
<v Speaker 1>for any of that information. Everything I found, the graffiti

603
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:54.440
<v Speaker 1>artist has never been found. So I'm just gonna throw

604
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:56.839
<v Speaker 1>that sipulation out there that there might be something, but

605
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:59.920
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't find anything about that interesting.

606
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:03.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's not satisfying at all. I want to know.

607
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:08.799
<v Speaker 1>So through the decades, as more and more notable messages

608
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:12.680
<v Speaker 1>appeared in the same handwriting.

609
00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:14.799
<v Speaker 2>As well, I just have to say one thing really

610
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:17.759
<v Speaker 2>quickly though. If it was just some random person who

611
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.000
<v Speaker 2>had no connection to this case whatsoever, Like, I don't

612
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.799
<v Speaker 2>feel like they go on with it, Like I don't

613
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:26.440
<v Speaker 2>think so either, boring and what's the point, right, So

614
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.279
<v Speaker 2>I think that this person knows something or had something

615
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:29.839
<v Speaker 2>to do with it.

616
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.359
<v Speaker 1>I think so too. And like, continuing through the decades,

617
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:36.079
<v Speaker 1>the same person was writing messages and they could identify

618
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:37.480
<v Speaker 1>through the handwriting.

619
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:39.759
<v Speaker 2>You know, yeah, no, I yeah, I don't think.

620
00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:42.759
<v Speaker 1>Of course as copycats. Though they are getting copycat messages,

621
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:46.359
<v Speaker 1>they can identify, they can identify which your copycat and

622
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.799
<v Speaker 1>which are not. But at one point I believe it

623
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:51.880
<v Speaker 1>was like in the seventies or something like. That was

624
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:53.960
<v Speaker 1>the last message from the original.

625
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:57.319
<v Speaker 2>Handwriting, really so it went on for it did.

626
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.680
<v Speaker 1>We are still getting messages to this day though from

627
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:00.599
<v Speaker 1>copy cats.

628
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.640
<v Speaker 2>What a waste of resources. Don't be a copycat.

629
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:08.240
<v Speaker 1>But the message has been slightly altered over time, and

630
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.920
<v Speaker 1>now the message is who put Bella in the witch elm?

631
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:13.759
<v Speaker 1>Spelling it the incorrect way?

632
00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:18.000
<v Speaker 2>W I t h okay, because it's not the main

633
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.839
<v Speaker 2>person exactly, and they're just thinking it's spelled that way. Okay.

634
00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:26.799
<v Speaker 1>Two people out there who are SMRT thinking that they

635
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:27.279
<v Speaker 1>got this.

636
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:29.880
<v Speaker 2>No, I would spell it wrong.

637
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:31.799
<v Speaker 1>Stay at home, play a call of duty. We don't

638
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:36.279
<v Speaker 1>want to talk to you. Fuck off. So anyways, a

639
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:41.880
<v Speaker 1>little more modern part to this story, where am I here? Okay?

640
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.680
<v Speaker 1>So before we do get to the theories, Professor Caroline

641
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:51.200
<v Speaker 1>Wilkinson of the Craney Official Identification at Dundee University recently

642
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.400
<v Speaker 1>released photographs. A recently used photographs taken at the time

643
00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:58.279
<v Speaker 1>to digitally reconstruct what Bella may have looked like.

644
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:00.279
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, that's cool.

645
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.359
<v Speaker 1>She could not use the actual skull, though she had

646
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.599
<v Speaker 1>to go by photographs and I want to ask, why

647
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.000
<v Speaker 1>do you think she was not able to use the skull?

648
00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was thinking. My first thought was because they

649
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:14.480
<v Speaker 2>don't have it anymore.

650
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Yep. The skull was lost. They lost Bella's fucking skull,

651
00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:20.680
<v Speaker 1>like the police.

652
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Yea, what the shit? Really yep, because I was like, oh,

653
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:27.559
<v Speaker 2>maybe they like like buried it or something. No, how

654
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:29.279
<v Speaker 2>do you lose a fucking skull?

655
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:31.799
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. It had been housed at the Birmingham

656
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.720
<v Speaker 1>Birmingham Forensics Lab then moved to the Politi City base.

657
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.759
<v Speaker 2>Someone must have stole it or something. That's mess.

658
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. The skulls whereabouts are not known. Cool

659
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:46.160
<v Speaker 1>and it's actually been like admitted by police yet we

660
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:46.920
<v Speaker 1>don't fucking know.

661
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:47.720
<v Speaker 2>That's sad.

662
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:51.759
<v Speaker 1>There's been investigators looking into it and they can't find

663
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:57.599
<v Speaker 1>documentation or anything on where her skull is. Nothing, it's

664
00:31:57.640 --> 00:31:58.039
<v Speaker 1>just gone.

665
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.799
<v Speaker 2>Well don't know. I feel like someone would have to

666
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.160
<v Speaker 2>steal it then maybe potentially or would have been nicer.

667
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:06.359
<v Speaker 2>She was like laid to rest.

668
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:10.039
<v Speaker 1>But okay, so you're gonna hate me for this, but

669
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.440
<v Speaker 1>that is all we know about Bella in the witchell

670
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.839
<v Speaker 1>I figure that was coming out. We don't know very much, so.

671
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.359
<v Speaker 2>They don't even haven't even fully identified her. They don't

672
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.000
<v Speaker 2>even fully know if her name is Bella.

673
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:26.039
<v Speaker 1>No, we do not. Bella is just as of right now,

674
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:26.680
<v Speaker 1>a pseudonym.

675
00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:28.519
<v Speaker 2>That's crazy.

676
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, then she has a kid somewhere out there, somewhere out.

677
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:36.519
<v Speaker 2>There that doesn't make any sense.

678
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:39.519
<v Speaker 1>So we are going to get into the theories though,

679
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:42.519
<v Speaker 1>And there's some stuff in here that's it's kind of crazy.

680
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Craig Cray. Let's see they.

681
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:47.200
<v Speaker 2>Check the other trees, maybe the fellow families in there.

682
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:49.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure they would have checked the other trees. Like

683
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:52.240
<v Speaker 1>the whole forest was basically a crime scene at that point.

684
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.039
<v Speaker 2>Right, Okay, so well there goes that theory.

685
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:55.640
<v Speaker 1>I need you to talk for a minute because I'm

686
00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:57.200
<v Speaker 1>going to take a sip of coffee.

687
00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Enjoy your coffee. Ben will have a pause break here.

688
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:03.640
<v Speaker 1>Can you can you sing us some Jeopardy music?

689
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Do Do Do Do? Do? Do? Do? Do that Jeopardy?

690
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.240
<v Speaker 2>It is okay because you gave me a look. I

691
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:13.960
<v Speaker 2>was like, am I singing the wrong song?

692
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.200
<v Speaker 1>I just didn't expect you to actually do it and

693
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:21.839
<v Speaker 1>then the enthusiasm. Dude, you didn't give a fuck. I

694
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:22.440
<v Speaker 1>loved it.

695
00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:26.440
<v Speaker 2>You asked me to do something. I did it for once.

696
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:28.599
<v Speaker 2>Never listened to what you asked.

697
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.599
<v Speaker 1>You don't ever listen to me at all.

698
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:32.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not very good at listening.

699
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Get married, kids, This is this is what you have

700
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:35.680
<v Speaker 1>to look forward to.

701
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh it isn't great, then it isn't great.

702
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:40.920
<v Speaker 1>I never said it was bad at all. I said

703
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:42.519
<v Speaker 1>this is get married kids, this.

704
00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.079
<v Speaker 2>Is what you have to very little enthusiasm though.

705
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just like you sang Jeopardy.

706
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:49.759
<v Speaker 2>With I wasn't talking about my marriage.

707
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, anyways, let's move on here. I love you, babe,

708
00:33:56.440 --> 00:34:01.759
<v Speaker 1>I love you, but leaving me Jesus hanging there. Wow,

709
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.559
<v Speaker 1>cut me deep. Okay, let's get onto the theories.

710
00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, let's do it.

711
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.239
<v Speaker 1>So the first theory is it was a ritualistic thing.

712
00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:18.639
<v Speaker 1>So Bella's identity came two years after her discovery. There

713
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 1>was Margaret Murray, a philosopher, professor at folkloris and folklorist

714
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:28.280
<v Speaker 1>at University College in London. She theorized that the real

715
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.480
<v Speaker 1>answer to Bella's end lay in the fact that one

716
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:34.639
<v Speaker 1>of her hands was detached from the body. Its fingers

717
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:38.480
<v Speaker 1>were scattered around the witch elm sprinkled You mean sprinkle, Yes,

718
00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:43.199
<v Speaker 1>actually I think you said glittered around. I think sparkled around.

719
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:48.280
<v Speaker 1>Sparkled around. So she she cited an occult ritual called

720
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.360
<v Speaker 1>Hand of Glory, in which the hand of a person

721
00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:55.119
<v Speaker 1>who is perished on the gallows, which Bella did not

722
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.159
<v Speaker 1>in the gallows you know what gallows are like hanging gallows,

723
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:04.079
<v Speaker 1>so she was not. However, she was asphyxiated, so that

724
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.519
<v Speaker 1>might have been like a step in the right direction

725
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:11.039
<v Speaker 1>of saying that. But anyways, the severed hand could be

726
00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:13.960
<v Speaker 1>used for supernatural purposes in this ritual.

727
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:16.960
<v Speaker 2>Keep it. I'm already confused, Like, sorry, was she aren't

728
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:19.760
<v Speaker 2>they aren't they use an already dead person for this ritual?

729
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:22.079
<v Speaker 2>Or like they were like sacrificing her?

730
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:24.199
<v Speaker 1>I believe sacrificing yes.

731
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, So if it was like a cult thing

732
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:29.400
<v Speaker 2>like probably no one would ever say yeah exactly.

733
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:33.760
<v Speaker 1>And there were rumors of riches and witches sabbaths there

734
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.599
<v Speaker 1>we go in the Hagley Woods, and it made its

735
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:39.559
<v Speaker 1>way around the community very fast, and people knew about it,

736
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.239
<v Speaker 1>and Margaret, along with many others, are convinced that Bella

737
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.559
<v Speaker 1>had been sacrificed by her coven in a witch trial.

738
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:50.960
<v Speaker 1>To this day, people are enthralled with this theory. Police, however,

739
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.840
<v Speaker 1>can't find any evidence to link this theory to the

740
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:56.159
<v Speaker 1>Hagleywood remains.

741
00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:00.440
<v Speaker 2>That's interesting and honestly kind of makes a lot of

742
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.280
<v Speaker 2>sense that the police wouldn't find anything with that really.

743
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The only thing that I'm thinking about though, is

744
00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:09.880
<v Speaker 1>if the hand was severed, there is a very very

745
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.159
<v Speaker 1>high chance you're going to see marks on the wrist

746
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:18.159
<v Speaker 1>or something like that from a knife, like in the bones.

747
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:21.039
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, because and that was never said anywhere.

748
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:23.320
<v Speaker 1>That was never said anywhere. There was never as far

749
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:26.280
<v Speaker 1>as I've found, there were no marks of any cutting

750
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:29.760
<v Speaker 1>or sawing or anything on the bones. Which is you're

751
00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:31.559
<v Speaker 1>going to either go through bone or you're going to

752
00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:34.960
<v Speaker 1>go through the wrist joint, and to go through that joint,

753
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:39.639
<v Speaker 1>you have to be very precise to not touch a bone, right,

754
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:42.800
<v Speaker 1>Because I mean, I've done butchering as a hunter, right

755
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:46.360
<v Speaker 1>ninety nine point nine percent of the time you're hacking

756
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:49.159
<v Speaker 1>at bone and like sawing at awkward angles to get

757
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:49.920
<v Speaker 1>through joints, and.

758
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:52.480
<v Speaker 2>It's and that would have been noticed, Yeah.

759
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:54.320
<v Speaker 1>It would have been noticed. So I think that one's

760
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.280
<v Speaker 1>out the window, just just because of that, just because

761
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:57.559
<v Speaker 1>of that.

762
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.400
<v Speaker 2>So, but did you ever find anything to it say

763
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.320
<v Speaker 2>that the hand was like torn off or that's what

764
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:04.639
<v Speaker 2>we're assuming it was.

765
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:08.159
<v Speaker 1>The hand was separate from the body. It never said

766
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:10.800
<v Speaker 1>any nowhere does it ever say the hand was cut,

767
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:13.800
<v Speaker 1>ripped or anything. The hand is separate from the body.

768
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:17.280
<v Speaker 1>That's it, because I'm assuming they say that and not cut,

769
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:19.280
<v Speaker 1>because there are no marks to say it was cut,

770
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.800
<v Speaker 1>so they can't tell. So I'm gonna say the hand

771
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:23.920
<v Speaker 1>was separated naturally.

772
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.480
<v Speaker 2>But how though, like, how would animal have gotten in there?

773
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:31.159
<v Speaker 2>And what kind of animal rat? I guess, yeah, I

774
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:35.519
<v Speaker 2>guess so Ripley, Like when she found that bone down

775
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:36.119
<v Speaker 2>the hill.

776
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:38.639
<v Speaker 1>That one time, oh my parents place, she hit the jackpot.

777
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:41.400
<v Speaker 2>She was, Yeah, she was just like tickled pink with.

778
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:43.719
<v Speaker 1>Herself, comes running up the hill with a moose bone.

779
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:45.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, let's clarify it was a mood.

780
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Now she comes up with a human fear. Okay. The

781
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:55.239
<v Speaker 1>second and most popular theory is that she was a Nazi.

782
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Spot sounds far fetched, but let's get into it, and

783
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna explain why. Okay, this theory came to you

784
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.800
<v Speaker 1>came to light like. Ten years later, a woman going

785
00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:09.559
<v Speaker 1>by the name of Anna of Claverly wrote a letter

786
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.920
<v Speaker 1>to the local newspaper stating that she had information regarding

787
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Bella's death. It just so happened. Hold on, sorry, I

788
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:20.920
<v Speaker 1>just so happened. There we go. I wrote this little

789
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.320
<v Speaker 1>like proud of myself moment in here. It just so happened.

790
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:27.400
<v Speaker 1>I managed to find this letter and like scouring of

791
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:29.840
<v Speaker 1>the internet, this was so hard to find that I

792
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:31.840
<v Speaker 1>found the fucking levels.

793
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:33.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's amazing. I love when that happens.

794
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:37.679
<v Speaker 1>So the letter that she wrote to the paper says, this,

795
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:43.519
<v Speaker 1>finish your articles Ari the witch Elm crimes. By all means,

796
00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.000
<v Speaker 1>they are interesting to your readers, but you will never

797
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:49.880
<v Speaker 1>solve the mystery. The one person who could give the

798
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:54.199
<v Speaker 1>answer is now beyond the jurisdictions of earthly courts. The

799
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:58.440
<v Speaker 1>affair is closed and involves no witches, black magic or

800
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:03.199
<v Speaker 1>moonlight rites. Much as I hate having to use non diplume,

801
00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:07.079
<v Speaker 1>whatever that means, I think you would appreciate if I

802
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:08.960
<v Speaker 1>would think you would appreciate it if you knew me.

803
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:11.920
<v Speaker 1>The only clue I can give you are that the

804
00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:17.599
<v Speaker 1>persons responsible for the crime died insane in nineteen forty two,

805
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:21.800
<v Speaker 1>and the victim was Dutch and arrived in England illegally

806
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:26.199
<v Speaker 1>about nineteen forty one. I have no wish to recall anymore.

807
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:31.360
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of like a confusing letter. I'm not going

808
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:32.000
<v Speaker 2>to lie.

809
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:36.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, basically she's saying the person responsible for said person's

810
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.519
<v Speaker 1>death also died. They're not alive anymore.

811
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:40.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, I gat that that.

812
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:46.840
<v Speaker 1>And the person who died, Bella, was Dutch and arrived

813
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:49.000
<v Speaker 1>in England illegally in nineteen forty one.

814
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:51.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, that's.

815
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:54.559
<v Speaker 1>Essentially what it's saying. What it's saying. Yeah. So the

816
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:57.719
<v Speaker 1>person who wrote this letter Anna was later identified as

817
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Una Mosop and was interviewed by a journalist, Wilfred Byford Jones,

818
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:08.119
<v Speaker 1>who later published the letter I just wrote. And she

819
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:12.119
<v Speaker 1>said that Bella had been a German spy who worked

820
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:16.000
<v Speaker 1>for or So I worked with a British officer, among

821
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:18.559
<v Speaker 1>some other colorful characters in the army and all that

822
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:21.719
<v Speaker 1>sort of stuff. So, according to Anna, Bella was a

823
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:24.280
<v Speaker 1>member of the spy ring seeking information about the local

824
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:29.800
<v Speaker 1>municipal munis munitions factories. I kept like almost wanting to

825
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:30.960
<v Speaker 1>say municipal, but.

826
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's what I thought you were going.

827
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:35.320
<v Speaker 1>To say, munitions factory. So AMMO making ammunition?

828
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:36.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay? Yeah.

829
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:40.480
<v Speaker 1>So she alleged that her pilot husband, Jack Mosap, had

830
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:41.760
<v Speaker 1>witnessed Bella's death.

831
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Who's who's the husband? Whose husband? Anna's husband?

832
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Anna's real name?

833
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:51.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I thought it was Bella's husband.

834
00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:54.039
<v Speaker 1>I was like, Anna is the pseudonym for the person

835
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:54.760
<v Speaker 1>who wrote the letter?

836
00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay?

837
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:58.039
<v Speaker 1>They were found to be Una Mosap.

838
00:40:58.199 --> 00:40:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

839
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:04.320
<v Speaker 1>So, according to or Una, I guess Bella was a

840
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:06.480
<v Speaker 1>member of a spy ring seeking information about the location

841
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:08.559
<v Speaker 1>of the factories. Blah blah. Sorry I backtracked a little

842
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:11.360
<v Speaker 1>bit there. Okay. So she alleged that her pilot husband

843
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:14.920
<v Speaker 1>Jack had witnessed Bella's death. Bella apparently got into a

844
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:18.800
<v Speaker 1>deep got in too deep with aspy ring and a

845
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:24.159
<v Speaker 1>Dutchman called Van Ralt. One evening, Van Ralt accompanied Bella

846
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:27.480
<v Speaker 1>and picked up Jack in his car, and shortly after

847
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Van Ralt strangled the woman Bella Bella allegedly because of

848
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:36.840
<v Speaker 1>her spy associations, resulting in her body getting stuffed inside

849
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:41.480
<v Speaker 1>the witch Elm. Jack shortly after was committed to a

850
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Stanford mental hospital because he kept having reoccurring dreams of

851
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:48.760
<v Speaker 1>a woman staring out at him from a tree. Oh gosh,

852
00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:52.199
<v Speaker 1>she died in hospital shortly before the body of Bella

853
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:53.599
<v Speaker 1>was found in the witch Elm.

854
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Okay. And also, and I just realized too in my

855
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:01.000
<v Speaker 2>head that like Bella's family, if it was times of

856
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:03.239
<v Speaker 2>the war and stuff, could have died too, and that's

857
00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:05.599
<v Speaker 2>it'd be why she never got reported missing.

858
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.559
<v Speaker 1>Oh exactly, that missing's persons report. That's a very real thing. Yeah,

859
00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:12.159
<v Speaker 1>there's theories that you know, she could have been just

860
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.000
<v Speaker 1>another casualty of war, never reported missing. That is a true,

861
00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:17.599
<v Speaker 1>very true thing, because we are in the height of

862
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.840
<v Speaker 1>World War two and this whole spy thing, missing person's thing, like,

863
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:25.400
<v Speaker 1>that's very real stuff for this time. There is another

864
00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:28.679
<v Speaker 1>variation in the story though, that h because this one

865
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:31.840
<v Speaker 1>that I just read comes from Anna or Usa. This

866
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:35.199
<v Speaker 1>variation not from her. But this variation goes at the

867
00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:39.039
<v Speaker 1>three Those three people were drinking at a pub and

868
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:41.400
<v Speaker 1>it said that Bella became drunk and passed out while

869
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:44.559
<v Speaker 1>they were driving home. So the men, for whatever fucking

870
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:47.119
<v Speaker 1>reason or another, shoved her inside the witch Elm tree

871
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:51.280
<v Speaker 1>as like a prank or something, and she just fucking.

872
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:52.519
<v Speaker 2>Died in there and couldn't get out.

873
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, kids don't shove people in trees as a prank.

874
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:56.519
<v Speaker 1>That's a fucking dumb thing to do.

875
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that, I don't think that. I don't know that

876
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:00.400
<v Speaker 2>one is dumb.

877
00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:04.199
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So another one is she was actually an actress

878
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:09.440
<v Speaker 1>who was also kind of spyish espionage anyways. So in

879
00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:12.400
<v Speaker 1>January of nineteen forty one, a German Man named Joseph

880
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:16.079
<v Speaker 1>Jacobs had parachuted into the Hagleywood area and was captured.

881
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.280
<v Speaker 1>He told the home guard that he was he was

882
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:24.960
<v Speaker 1>going to make contact with a woman named Clara Burial Borel. Anyways, sorry,

883
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Clara from here and out, okay. Jacobs explained that Clara

884
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:31.440
<v Speaker 1>had been a German cabaret singer and actress before being

885
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:36.719
<v Speaker 1>recruited as a German spy. This actually really reminds me

886
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:38.239
<v Speaker 1>of I don't know if you've ever seen the movie

887
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:43.159
<v Speaker 1>in Glorious back Inglorious Bastards. There's an actress in there

888
00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:45.559
<v Speaker 1>who's all like cabaret singer and stuff and very much

889
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:49.960
<v Speaker 1>so a spy as well. Yeah, but she's not on

890
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:51.960
<v Speaker 1>the German side. She's on the other side. But anyways,

891
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.559
<v Speaker 1>I thought maybe it was like inspired by anyways.

892
00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, Well, it isn't. At one point when they first

893
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:02.280
<v Speaker 2>started writing those messages like graffiti, Yep, wasn't it something

894
00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:07.440
<v Speaker 2>before Bella? Like it was a different was it Loubella? Loubella?

895
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.280
<v Speaker 1>It was Lubella was the first message, and then after

896
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:11.559
<v Speaker 1>that it was referred to as Bella.

897
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, interesting, Okay.

898
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.239
<v Speaker 1>So after thoroughly investigating Jacob's man who parachuted in though

899
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.840
<v Speaker 1>authorities determined that he could not be released and was

900
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:25.599
<v Speaker 1>killed by firing squad, he was actually the last person

901
00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:29.079
<v Speaker 1>to perish at the Tower of London. This, though, begs

902
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:32.360
<v Speaker 1>the question could the remains in the Hagley would be

903
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:35.639
<v Speaker 1>you know Clara who had never managed to rendezvous with Jacobs.

904
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:39.440
<v Speaker 1>There is actually a historical document that shows that Claaria

905
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.880
<v Speaker 1>was actually a real person. She was a cabaret singer

906
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:45.559
<v Speaker 1>and an actress who performed both in Germany and in

907
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.280
<v Speaker 1>England for a time. It seemed, though, that she vanished

908
00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:51.039
<v Speaker 1>without a trace after nineteen forty one, with no film

909
00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:54.840
<v Speaker 1>credits or anything to connect her appearances to anything. And

910
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:56.960
<v Speaker 1>she would have been thirty five in nineteen forty one,

911
00:44:57.480 --> 00:44:59.280
<v Speaker 1>same age of the remains as Bella.

912
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:01.519
<v Speaker 2>Was she made married, I'm.

913
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Not too sure about that one.

914
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Huh.

915
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.880
<v Speaker 1>However, did she have a child? I don't know that one.

916
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.079
<v Speaker 1>I didn't do an abundant reason. I know.

917
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, my brain is just like going here.

918
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:15.880
<v Speaker 1>However, there is a release of a long lost quote

919
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:19.239
<v Speaker 1>unquote long lost German records which indicate Claire had actually

920
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:23.079
<v Speaker 1>died in German in Germany in nineteen forty two, largely

921
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:25.239
<v Speaker 1>putting this theory to rest. But I just want to say,

922
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:28.760
<v Speaker 1>cover ups from government spies in World War Two, maybe

923
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:30.920
<v Speaker 1>something that's keeping us from knowing the truth. Like, I'm

924
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:34.599
<v Speaker 1>sure that's not an abnormal thing. Yeah, oh she was

925
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:37.400
<v Speaker 1>really a spy. No, she just actually just died.

926
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:41.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So this is just it's not at this point

927
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.159
<v Speaker 2>just never going to get solved.

928
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:45.920
<v Speaker 1>There is another theory, the last theory here that I'm

929
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:47.760
<v Speaker 1>going to cover, and there's some other minor ones out

930
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.840
<v Speaker 1>there that are just kind of like completely left wing. Okay,

931
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:52.679
<v Speaker 1>but this other, this last one hear I'm going to

932
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:55.119
<v Speaker 1>talk about she was actually a prostitute.

933
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

934
00:45:56.519 --> 00:45:58.880
<v Speaker 1>So the speculation is that Bella may have been someone

935
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:02.320
<v Speaker 1>with a transient lifestyle, a person not easily traced in life,

936
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:07.280
<v Speaker 1>thus not particularly missed in death. It suggested that Bella

937
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.199
<v Speaker 1>was a prostitute who worked in the streets around Hagley wrote.

938
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:13.679
<v Speaker 1>According to police files, there was a Bella who disappeared

939
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:16.480
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen forty one, which would fit the timeline of

940
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:20.840
<v Speaker 1>events clearly. Locals point out the fact that Gypsies had

941
00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:23.760
<v Speaker 1>camped out in the vicinity of Hagleywoods during nineteen forty one,

942
00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:26.920
<v Speaker 1>and the theory is perhaps Bella was one of them,

943
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:29.480
<v Speaker 1>and for one reason or another, was killed by a

944
00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:31.559
<v Speaker 1>member of her own community and hidden away in the

945
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:35.239
<v Speaker 1>witch Elm. And since she was just a gypsy, a wanderer,

946
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:39.119
<v Speaker 1>a transient, just no one cared to or have known

947
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:39.960
<v Speaker 1>of her disappearance.

948
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:45.360
<v Speaker 2>Interesting and being like that too, you could just have

949
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:47.920
<v Speaker 2>jewelry and have had it on your finger and it

950
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:49.559
<v Speaker 2>meant nothing really too yep.

951
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.639
<v Speaker 1>And to note that rolled gold wedding ring was quote

952
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:54.880
<v Speaker 1>unquote cheap as well.

953
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so resting.

954
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:03.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And that is the story of who put Bella

955
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:05.960
<v Speaker 1>in the witch Elm still unsolved to this day, and

956
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:08.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to assume never to be solved, especially considering

957
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:10.920
<v Speaker 1>the fact that we don't know where her fucking head is.

958
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:17.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's bad. Yeah, that's really bad.

959
00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Bad.

960
00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:21.119
<v Speaker 2>Do they have the rest of her body or did

961
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:22.199
<v Speaker 2>that happen to go missing too.

962
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:24.119
<v Speaker 1>I would assume they have the rest of her body.

963
00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:26.440
<v Speaker 1>I would assume, but I mean I don't know.

964
00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Jeez, huh so interesting interesting, Yeah, Okay, these cases are

965
00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:36.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of fun. And the fact that it just like

966
00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:39.440
<v Speaker 2>gets your your gears turning and your imagination.

967
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:41.599
<v Speaker 1>You think, you try and like put those things together. Yeah,

968
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:44.719
<v Speaker 1>even if the theories are completely left wing, like don't

969
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:48.639
<v Speaker 1>make any sense or whatever, it's fun to humor them sometimes. Yeah,

970
00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:53.280
<v Speaker 1>so my my theory, I'm I think I'm gonna go

971
00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:54.840
<v Speaker 1>more for the transient.

972
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.320
<v Speaker 2>One, the gypsy thing.

973
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:59.760
<v Speaker 1>I think so, I think Bella just happened to be

974
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.519
<v Speaker 1>some one who may have been not from the area,

975
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:06.480
<v Speaker 1>so come in with a gypsy caravan or some sort

976
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:10.039
<v Speaker 1>or just traveling along, made her way in and was

977
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:12.840
<v Speaker 1>camping around, living around, doing whatever she wanted, just to

978
00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:15.679
<v Speaker 1>kind of live and get by. For one reason or another,

979
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.199
<v Speaker 1>she got in it with someone else and they killed

980
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:20.320
<v Speaker 1>her and hit her body.

981
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.079
<v Speaker 2>That one does make a lot of sense, because it

982
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:26.079
<v Speaker 2>makes a lot of sense that she never got reported.

983
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:31.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, so I don't know, what do you think?

984
00:48:33.079 --> 00:48:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I think that one. I like that one does make

985
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:39.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot of sense. But then also the the spy

986
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.159
<v Speaker 2>one too.

987
00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:44.079
<v Speaker 1>That letter being written in though too, but it was

988
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:48.519
<v Speaker 1>ten years after the fact that it was written in huh,

989
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:50.119
<v Speaker 1>so who knows?

990
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Interesting?

991
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:55.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, hit us up on Instagram. Let us know what

992
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:55.480
<v Speaker 1>you guys.

993
00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I want to know. It's always interesting to hear

994
00:48:57.960 --> 00:48:59.039
<v Speaker 2>what other people think too.

995
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:00.840
<v Speaker 1>I've got quite a few. It wasn't gonna be posting

996
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:03.480
<v Speaker 1>them up, so he'll probably do like two separate posts

997
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:04.239
<v Speaker 1>at least for this one.

998
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let us know. I'm intrigued.

999
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:09.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and until we see you guys' messages, make sure

1000
00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:11.280
<v Speaker 1>you guys stay wicked.