WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.839 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every week, 4 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.800 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 5 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:29.879 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:39.640 journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good. 7 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:45.280 Evening the inside story of the CIA's secret mind control 8 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:50.320 project MK Ultra, using never before seen testimony from the 9 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:57.119 perpetrators themselves. Sidney Gottlieb was the CIA's most cunning chemist. 10 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:02.000 As head of the infamous mk Ultra project, he oversaw 11 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:08.079 an assortment of dangerous, even deadly experiments, among them dosing 12 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:13.000 unwitting strangers with mind bending drugs, torturing mental patients through 13 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:17.959 sensory deprivation, and steering the movements of animals via electrodes 14 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:22.599 implanted into their brains. His goal was to develop methods 15 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.799 of mind control that could turn someone into a real 16 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:32.719 life Manchurian candidate. In conjunction with MK Ultra, Gottlieb also 17 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:36.840 plotted the assassination of foreign leaders and created spy gear 18 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:41.840 for undercover agents. The details of his career, however, have 19 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:46.519 long been shrouded in mystery. Upon retiring from the CIA 20 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:51.400 in nineteen seventy three, he tossed his files into an incinerator. 21 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:55.799 As a result, much of what happened under mk Ultra 22 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:01.359 was thought to be lost. Until now. Historian John Lyle 23 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:06.519 has uncovered dozens of depositions containing new information about MK Ultra, 24 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:11.719 straight from the mouths of its perpetrators. For the first time, 25 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:16.319 Gottlieb and his underlings divulge what they did, why they 26 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:21.560 did it, how they got away with it, and much more. Additionally, 27 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:26.599 Lyle highlights the dramatic story of mk Ultra's victims, from 28 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:32.159 their terrible treatment to their dogged pursuit of justice. The 29 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:38.560 consequences of mk Ultra still reverberate throughout American society. Project 30 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:42.599 Mind Control is the definitive account of this most disturbing 31 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:47.319 of chapters in CIA history. The book that we're featuring 32 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:53.080 this evening is Project mind Control Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA 33 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:58.039 and the Tragedy of mk Ultra, with my special guest, 34 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:03.800 historian and law author John Lyle. Welcome to the program, 35 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:05.439 and thank you very much for this interview. 36 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.199 John Lyle, thank you, thanks for having me. 37 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:14.039 And congratulations on this extraordinary book project mind Control. 38 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:17.639 Yes, thanks, I'm I'm glad it's finally out. I've been 39 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:19.120 working on this for a long time, and I think 40 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:21.080 it's an exciting story. I think people are really going 41 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:24.639 to enjoy, well enjoy in some parts, but really learn 42 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:26.479 a lot about what was going on in the CIA 43 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:29.520 during these MK Ultra years in the nineteen fifties and sixties. 44 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.039 Tell us, so you say this project is a few 45 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.280 years in the making, tell us what brought you to 46 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:40.159 this project, why you felt this and compelled to write 47 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:40.680 this story. 48 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:44.599 Yeah, thank you. I've long been interested in scientists who 49 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.360 have connections to the intelligence community. When I was doing 50 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.080 my PhD, I wrote my dissertation on that kind of 51 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.039 subject a group called the Science Attaches, but they had 52 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:57.520 connections to the CIA, and so I've kind of known 53 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:00.919 about scientists who have worked with the CIA, various of 54 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.759 them throughout the years, and this is one of the 55 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:07.960 more interesting stories. I would say, this Mkultra program, this 56 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.360 attempt to create some kind of mind control, either drug 57 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:14.800 or psychological technique, and so that was naturally kind of 58 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:18.040 interesting to me. My first book was on the precursor 59 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:20.399 to the CIA, which is the OSS, the Office of 60 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:25.560 Strategic Services, that was during World War Two. And I 61 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:29.079 wrote that first book, The Dirty Tricks Department, about a 62 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:33.879 group of scientists who created the secret weapons documents disguises 63 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.360 for agents who are going abroad undercover. And so that 64 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:40.199 kind of naturally led me into this topic about the 65 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.920 CIA because several of the people who were involved in 66 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:46.480 that program during World War Two they also have connections 67 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.560 to this mk Ultra project. So, for example, one of 68 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:52.160 the people who is hired by the OSS to do 69 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:55.120 some truth drug experiments during World War two is a 70 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.199 man named George White, who is a Bureau of a 71 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:00.600 narcotics agent, and he was hired during World War two 72 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:06.240 mainly to dose people with THHC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, 73 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:08.360 and see how they reacted, see if it could get 74 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.879 them to tell the truth, if they were holding a secret, 75 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:14.639 something like that. And so when mk ultra, this mind 76 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:17.879 control program for the CIA, when he got started in 77 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.199 nineteen fifty three, the head of it was a man 78 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.680 named Sidney Gottlieb, and Sidney Gottlieb was a chemist and 79 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:27.240 he didn't really know how to start with mind control. 80 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.639 He didn't know what kind of experiments to run, who 81 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.680 to fund in order to determine whether truth drugs are possible. 82 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.519 And so he went into the files of the OSS 83 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.120 and as he was rummaging around those files, he happened 84 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.879 to find some files that listed this name on it, 85 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.399 George White, and he was doing these truth drug experiments 86 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.199 and that was exactly the kind of thing that Sidney 87 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.319 Gottlieb was interested in. And so Sidney Gottlieb hired him 88 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:51.920 that same guy, And so there was a natural kind 89 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:54.800 of link between my first book and this next subject. 90 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:56.399 And so that's what led me to it. 91 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.439 You take us to in or prologue to Boston September 92 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:05.519 twenty fifth and nineteen eighty eight, a nineteen eighty pardon me, 93 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:10.360 and a depositions, and there was a sonographer, And so 94 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:14.240 from the perspective of the stenographer, she writes her account 95 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.959 of what happened September twenty fifth, nineteen eighty regarding Sidney 96 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:25.319 Gottlieb and an attorney named Joseph Raw and another attorney, 97 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:28.519 his partner, James Turner. Just tell us about this prologue 98 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:32.519 and this deposition that was underway. 99 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:35.240 Yeah, I'm really glad you asked about that, because that's 100 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.720 one of the main draws of this book is in 101 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:39.959 the nineteen eighties, this is twenty years after m k 102 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.120 Ultra began. You know, m k Altri's over by this point, 103 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.199 but several victims of this m k Ultra program who 104 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:51.319 were subjects of experiments that involved either electric shocks to 105 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:55.680 their brains or chemical comas, dosing them with LSD, all 106 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.160 kinds of stuff. Several of these victims sued the CIA 107 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:01.600 in the nineteen eighties and they're attorneys was were Joseph 108 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:05.480 Raw and James Turner. And as part of this lawsuit, 109 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:08.480 these attorneys took the depositions of several people who were 110 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:12.120 involved in mk Ultra, including Sidney Gottlieb, the head of Mkultra. 111 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:15.839 And so eventually this lawsuit was settled out of court, 112 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:18.600 but these depositions had still been taken, and they were 113 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:21.040 in the papers of Joseph Row, this lawyer, and when 114 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:23.480 he died, those were donated to the Library of Congress, 115 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:25.759 and that's where I found them. So I have these 116 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.959 verbatim transcripts of these attorneys asking not only the perpetrators 117 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:34.079 in k Ultra questions, but the victims of mk ultra questions, 118 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.079 and so I have this great dialogue that I can 119 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:38.000 use in the book to get both perspectives of the 120 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:39.839 people who were doing it and the people who had 121 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.759 this stuff done to them. And the reason why I 122 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:45.720 wanted to start the book with this prologue taking the 123 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:49.920 perspective of this court reporter who was there transcribing the 124 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.920 deposition as it was happening, is because kind of subconsciously 125 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:55.680 I wanted the reader to think throughout the book that 126 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:57.759 I want them to be the fly on the wall. 127 00:07:57.839 --> 00:07:59.800 I want them to be like the court reporter who 128 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.879 is in the room listening to these depositions happening. And 129 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:04.680 so that was what I was trying to get across 130 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:06.920 with that prologue, is to let the reader know that 131 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:10.480 we have this great dialogue, this verbatim transcript of what 132 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:12.560 these people are saying, and you're going to be the 133 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.240 fly on the wall listening to how they talk about 134 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.639 what they did, the experiments that they performed or hired 135 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:21.240 people to do, and how they rationalize that to themselves, 136 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.680 how they feel about it twenty years later, whether they 137 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:26.639 have regrets. Many of them did, especially Sidney Gottlieb, and 138 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.959 also from the victim's perspective, what did they go through? 139 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:32.519 So that those are the depositions that I found for 140 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:34.480 this book that make it a little bit more unique. 141 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:36.519 There are a couple of books about mk Ultra, but 142 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:39.279 this one has that great verbatim transcript that allows us 143 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:41.200 to get inside the heads of the characters who are 144 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.519 actually in the story, which I'm really glad you picked 145 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:45.879 up on, because that's part of what makes the book, 146 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:47.000 I think, exciting to read. 147 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:52.000 Absolutely, you take us to what you call the outsider 148 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:57.000 and the origins of Sidney Gottlieb, and so you take 149 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:01.399 us to his Orthodox Jewish immigrant parents. He was born 150 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.720 in nineteen eighteen. Tell us a little bit about the outsider. 151 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:10.279 Yeah, that title of the chapter giving Gotleib's background is 152 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:12.240 the outsider, because that's how I see him, and I 153 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.799 think that's how he saw himself. He was born with 154 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:18.000 club feet. He walked with a limp because he had 155 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.519 surgery took correct it, but it didn't quite work exactly 156 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:23.559 as it needed to, so he constantly walked with a limp. 157 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:25.720 He talked with a stutter from a young age. He 158 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:27.679 was always picked on as a child. He was seen 159 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:30.440 as by others the outsider, and he kind of internalized 160 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.679 that he was brilliant. 161 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:32.840 Though. 162 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:34.960 He was a brilliant scientist, and he eventually got his 163 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:38.320 PhD in bio organic chemistry from cal Tech, one of 164 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:42.279 the nation's premier institutions. So he was a brilliant scientist. 165 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:45.559 And during World War One or during World War Two, 166 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.879 right as he got his PhD, he decided he wanted 167 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:51.840 to give back to the country that had provided a 168 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:53.799 home for his immigrant parents, and so he wanted to 169 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:55.960 enlist in the army and fight in the war. But 170 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:59.559 he was denied an enlistment because of his physical ailments, 171 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.960 especially his club feet, and so afterwards he again this 172 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:06.080 emphasized to him that he was an outsider. He wasn't 173 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:09.000 someone who could enlist an army and serve his country. 174 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:11.679 So we always felt this debt that he owed to 175 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.960 his country. And so in the beginning of the Cold War, 176 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:20.519 he decided that he was going to join some government organization. 177 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:22.799 He didn't know quite which at that moment, but some 178 00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:26.120 organization that would allow him to pay back this debt 179 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:27.919 that he felt that he owed. And it just so 180 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.200 happened that at the moment the CIA was looking for 181 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.639 brilliant scientists, chemists like himself that might help win the 182 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:38.960 Cold War. To give a little bit more context, this 183 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.639 is right after World War two and World War two 184 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.200 had been it's sometimes called like the physicists War. If 185 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:47.120 World War one might have been the chemist's war with 186 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:49.000 the chemical weapons, world War two might have been the 187 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:53.039 physicist's war with nuclear weapons. And so science was now 188 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.559 seen as integral to national security. The fact that some 189 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.320 of the most important weapons of the war were built 190 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.399 by scientists, the atomic bombs, or you had proximity fusions 191 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:06.799 to detect things, or you had radar to detect ships 192 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:09.759 and planes. So the fact that science was now integral 193 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:13.120 to national security indicated the CIA that they needed to 194 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:17.240 hire scientists to determine what our adversaries were doing, what 195 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.120 were the Soviets doing that we can defend against and 196 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.279 maybe replicate ourselves. And so Sidney Gottlieb was hired by 197 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.480 the CIA to be this kind of chemist. One of 198 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.960 the first things that he did there was to work 199 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:33.399 with what was what's called the Clandestine Service, the Office 200 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.720 at the time it was called the Office of Policy Coordination. 201 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.440 This is the branch of the CIA that deals with 202 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:42.919 covert operations. And his job at least in the beginning, 203 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:45.440 was to develop methods of secret writing. So how could 204 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.159 you write something that someone couldn't detect. Maybe it would disappear, 205 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.960 maybe you would have to add some reagent to it 206 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:52.440 to make it appear on a piece of paper or 207 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:55.080 something like that. And he quickly kind of moved up 208 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:57.559 the ladder within the CIA and eventually was given head 209 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:01.759 of this Mkaltra program. The reason being that the CIA 210 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:05.000 wanted to determine whether it's possible to manipulate people because 211 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.399 they're especially afraid that this is what's happening in the 212 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.759 Soviet Union and they want to be able to defend 213 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.360 against it. But also if it is possible, maybe we 214 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:14.320 can use it to our advantage. So that's how Sidney 215 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:17.879 Gottlieb ends up at the CIA and how he comes 216 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:20.120 to head this mk Ultra program. 217 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.879 What did they the CIA believe and many Americans and 218 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:28.720 Sidney Gottlieb, what did he believe about the Soviet Union, 219 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:35.679 specifically in terms of getting information from unwitting prisoners. 220 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:40.279 Yes, there are a few incidents that lead Gottlieb in, 221 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:43.000 like the head of the CIA, Alan Dulles, and another 222 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.720 higher up in the CIA who is a champion of 223 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.960 mk Ultra, a guy named Richard Helms, to believe that 224 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:53.279 the communist powers, either the Soviet Union, China North Korea 225 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:55.279 at the moment, this is during the Korean War. There 226 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:57.639 are several incidents that lead them to believe that maybe 227 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.919 these communist powers possess methods of mind control. One of 228 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:05.159 the rationales for that is just by thinking Ivan Pavlov, 229 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:09.039 you know, the famous physiologist who did the behavioral conditioning 230 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.200 experiments on dogs where you would ring a bell and 231 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:14.080 the dog would salivate. That kind of behavioral conditioning that 232 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:17.519 was done in the eighteen nineties. And so Sidney Gottlieb 233 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.440 and others are thinking, well, if the Soviets or if 234 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.919 the Russians were doing that in the eighteen nineties, then 235 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:25.799 surely they've since expanded that program. Surely they've since expanded 236 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.840 behavioral conditioning to apply to humans as well. And if 237 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:31.080 they could make a dog salivate, maybe they can now 238 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:33.919 make a human do who knows what. So that's one 239 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:36.799 of the reasons that the CIA thinks that maybe these 240 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:40.240 communist powers have some kinds of methods of manipulation or 241 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:44.519 mind control in some way. Another incident is the Moscow 242 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:48.240 show trials where Stalin's political enemies are kind of being 243 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:53.000 purged from power and they're accused of doing crimes that 244 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.879 they didn't commit. These political enemies, Stalin accuses them of 245 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.200 trying to assassinate him in all kinds of things that 246 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.200 they didn't do. And so the curious thing is that 247 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:05.799 these prisoners start confessing to these false crimes. They start 248 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:08.039 saying that, yes, we did that, we're guilty. You need 249 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:09.600 to shoot us where you know, you need to lock 250 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:12.279 us up in prison. Why would they confess to false 251 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.480 crimes that they didn't do. One explanation, of course, is 252 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.399 that within the CIA, this explanation develops that maybe they've 253 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.960 been manipulated in some way. Maybe they've been dosed with 254 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:22.960 some kind of drugs to make them behave in this 255 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:26.639 confusing way. Maybe they've been hypnotized in a certain way. 256 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.559 There are several incidents like that. Another one, the most 257 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.960 famous one that leads to mk Ultra is the downing 258 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.679 of several American pilots in the Korean War who get 259 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.440 shot down over Korea and are captured as prisoners of war. 260 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.200 And while they are held captive, they start confessing to 261 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:50.080 crimes like dropping biological agents over Korea in order to 262 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.679 spread diseases among the Korean people like anthrax or typhus, 263 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.720 or cholera or bubonic plague. So they start confessing to 264 00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.240 these false crimes that yeah, we drop this stuff, you know, 265 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.399 over these Korean people to dose them with these with 266 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.559 these germs so that it would spread and kill all 267 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:08.519 these people. This didn't happen, and many people within the 268 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:10.879 CIA are wondering, why would they confess to these crimes? 269 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:13.799 Is it because perhaps, like the like the prisoners in 270 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.039 the Moscow show trials, they have been manipulated with some 271 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.440 kind of communist mind control techniques, perhaps you know, through 272 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:23.360 drugs or hypnosis or something else. It turns out that 273 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.320 truth is not quite as sensational as that. The truth 274 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:29.919 is that the communist powers have been using the methods 275 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:32.080 of coercion that they had been using for a long time, 276 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:36.480 like sleep deprivation and torture and food deprivation, you know, 277 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.720 just these typical methods of coercion to get these people 278 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.000 to talk. But there was still a lingering suspicion within 279 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.600 the CIA that there might be something else, which is 280 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.799 why they decided to develop their own mind control program. 281 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:52.679 Mk Ultra. Now, in fact, before mk Ultra, there had 282 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.720 been a couple similar programs within the CIA. Initially it 283 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:59.360 was called Project Bluebird, and the idea was to develop 284 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.080 some kind of truth drug. And the attempt to develop 285 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:04.639 a truth drug has you know, gone on forever, I 286 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.200 mean ever since. You know, plenty of the elder thousands 287 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.799 of years ago said in wine lies the truth, the 288 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.320 idea being that alcohol will make someone kind of spill 289 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:16.320 their secrets. So there's been a long quest to develop 290 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.080 truth drugs. And during World War Two, you know, I 291 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:21.440 mentioned that there was a quest to develop by the 292 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:25.159 OSS these truth drugs, whether it be THHC or something else. 293 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.639 And in the CIA, that original Project Bluebird was to 294 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.240 develop a truth drug. The saying was that they wanted 295 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:33.360 to get prisoners to sing like a bird, which is 296 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.279 why it was called Bluebird. That eventually morphed into another 297 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:41.480 project called Artichoke, and Artichoke was interested in truth drugs 298 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.639 as well, but also hypnotism and a few other things 299 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:50.519 related to drugs. But eventually the main CIA mind control 300 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.679 project that was set up in nineteen fifty three, expanding 301 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:55.600 on those previous projects, was MK Ultra. 302 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:00.679 Now you talk about that originally they were trying to 303 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.519 use nerve agents to try to elicit some kind of response, 304 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.799 but then they chose LSD. Tell us how they came 305 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:14.839 to decide to use LSD and Sydney Gottlieb's earliest forays 306 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:20.720 into LSD, what was their plan to do real world testing. Yeah. 307 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.839 So, LSD was first discovered in nineteen forty three by 308 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:28.599 this Swiss chemist, Albert Hoffman at the Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company, 309 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.759 and he didn't have much interest in the beginning. He 310 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:34.920 didn't know what its potential powers were, so he shelved 311 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.079 it for five years. Then in nineteen forty eight he 312 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.039 had this nagging suspicion that maybe it had something else 313 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:43.720 to offer, so he resynthesized LSD and when he did so, 314 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.720 a tiny bit of LSD, just a small, small, little 315 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:52.000 dose of it, contacted his skin and he started experiencing 316 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:56.359 this strange phenomena. The room started spinning, he starts hallucinating, 317 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.119 he can't see straight. So he thinks this is, you know, 318 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.599 a very powerful drug. And what was especially interesting to 319 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.240 him is that such a minute dose could have such 320 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:12.119 profound psychological effects. LSD is extremely powerful, which is one 321 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.799 of the main reasons why when the CIA learns about 322 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:18.279 this drug, they're interested because such a minute dose, it 323 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:21.000 can have such a powerful effect. It's so potent, so 324 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.960 you could easily slip this to someone without them knowing it, 325 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.839 and it could have really powerful hallucinogenic psychological effects. So 326 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.160 that's one of the main reasons why the CIA is interested. 327 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:32.920 The other main reason why is just because the effects 328 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:37.400 that LSD actually produces, these hallucinogenic effects, it seems potentially 329 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:39.920 to lower inhibitions, so maybe it can work as a 330 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.000 truth drug. But also if you can make someone seem 331 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.680 like they go crazy if they take LSD and don't 332 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.119 know it, then they're going to be acting very oddly, 333 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.960 then that might be useful in some kind of covert operation. 334 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.759 For instance, say, if there is some foreign leader that 335 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:58.960 we want to lose an upcoming election, what if we 336 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:01.680 dose their water with LSD beforehand and they drink it 337 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:05.720 before they give a important political speech, and then the 338 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.319 hallucinogenic effects start happening while they're giving this speech and 339 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:12.039 they seem to go crazy. Surely that's going to lead 340 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:13.880 people to lose faith in them and they might lose 341 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.440 the election. So there are some covert operation applications to 342 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:20.680 LSD besides just potentially being some kind of truth drug. 343 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:22.319 So that was one of the main reasons why the 344 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:23.599 CIA is interested in it. 345 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.240 That Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 346 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.599 let's you take us to an incident, a deeply important 347 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:37.680 incident at Deep Creek Lodge. Tell us the premise for 348 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:42.440 this meeting and what happens in terms of involving LSD. 349 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:43.680 Yes. 350 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.519 This is the famous Frank Olsen incident, one of the 351 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:49.480 most known, well known incidents of this kind of mk 352 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:53.599 ultra story. Deep Creek was a lodge in Maryland where 353 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.720 occasionally several scientists from the CIA and several scientists from 354 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:02.640 Camp Diedrich would meet. Diedrich was it eventually became Fort 355 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:06.440 Diedrich but it was the America's like biological warfare installation. 356 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.200 This is where germs were mass produced for the potential 357 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:15.480 of using them in biological weapons. And within Camp Didrich 358 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:19.920 there was a division called the Special Operations Division composed 359 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.880 of several scientists, and it was these scientists who would 360 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.480 meet with CIA scientists at Camp Didrich to share the 361 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.599 results of their experiments and let each other know what 362 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:30.720 was going on to keep each other informed on the 363 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:32.759 kinds of things that they were doing to help each 364 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:36.799 other in their work. So these scientists from the CIA, 365 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.119 Sidney Gottlieb among them. Another was Robert Lashbrook. They're mostly 366 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:43.480 connected with mk ultra, and the scientist from Fort Diedrich 367 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.880 among them is Frank Olsen. They would meet at Deep 368 00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:51.359 Creek to exchange their results. And during one of these meetings, 369 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.960 Sidney Gottlieb and his underling Robert Lashbrook, another chemist who's 370 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:58.319 working on mk ultra, they decide to secretly dose the 371 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:02.079 scientists at Deep Creek with LSD to see how they 372 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.759 react to it in their minds. In the mind of 373 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:06.920 Sidney Gottlieb, I think that he was thinking of this 374 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.599 almost as kind of a funny prank that he was 375 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:11.680 going to do. I don't think he actually thought that 376 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.279 it was going to have profound ramifications. He had done 377 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:17.279 this before with people within the CIA, secretly dose them 378 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:19.720 with LSD to see how they reacted. There were stories 379 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.359 around the CIA saying that people would dose the coffee 380 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.119 pot with LSD around the office. There was even a 381 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.920 memo coming from the Office of Security within the CIA 382 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:32.079 warning everyone not to dose the holiday punch bowl with 383 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:34.599 LSD because then there's going to be some repercussion. So 384 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:37.279 obviously this was the kind of rank that was carried 385 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.000 out within the CIA among the chemists who were working 386 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:43.000 on MK ultra, and they decided to bring that kind 387 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.119 of mentality to this Deep Creek retreat, and so they 388 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:49.960 poured some LSD into the liquor and started passing around 389 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.200 shots of this cointro liquor in One of the people 390 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:57.240 who took a shot was Frank Olsen, and for the 391 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.759 most part, everyone who had this started hallucinating again. The 392 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:04.319 walls started to spin. They eventually went to bed, though 393 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:06.559 except for Frank Olsen, this really seemed to have a 394 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:10.200 profound effect on his psychology. After the retreat, he returns 395 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.599 home and his wife immediately notices that he's acting very strangely. 396 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.640 He doesn't seem to be himself. Something seems to happen. 397 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.680 He keeps rambling on about how he thinks he messed 398 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:21.640 up the experiment and he wished that he would be 399 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:24.440 fired because it would be better for everyone, and he's 400 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.319 upset about things that have happened in this past. It's 401 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.839