WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.759 Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gaming Person. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.000 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.400 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. 5 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:19.239 So five four, three, two and one our folks, welcome 6 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:21.559 back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my 7 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:24.120 guest today. Irani Irani, Welcome. 8 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:28.000 Hi. Thank you so much for having me guy. 9 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:31.920 Awesome, appreciate it. Irani is an author and guide whose 10 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:36.840 work weaves depth psychology, sematic awareness, and embodied spiritual practice. 11 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:40.399 She supports women healing the mother wound and seekers integrating 12 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.079 transformative experiences through presence, relational care, and respect for the 13 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:50.000 nervous system's pace. Her approach is grounded, trauma informed and experiential, 14 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:53.920 emphasizing integration as a lift process rather than a peak 15 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:59.000 moment or conceptual understanding. All right, Ronnie, just a little 16 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:00.679 bit about you before we go. We share with the 17 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:04.000 listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently. 18 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:10.760 I was born at Boulder Community Hospital and I've lived 19 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.480 in Bolder my whole life. When I was twenty three, 20 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:20.519 i well, I had graduated from college and intended to 21 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:23.599 move to northern California with a group of friends, but 22 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:30.000 I got a real job, so I stayed and ended 23 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:34.640 up moving up into the mountains above Boulder, and I 24 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:38.359 am very happy here. These mountains are my roots. And 25 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:40.920 so although I've traveled a lot and spend a lot 26 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:45.680 of time in India and South America, Europe, all the places, 27 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:49.439 I have never had the desire to leave the mountains here. 28 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.159 So born and raised in Bolder and moving in the 29 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:54.079 mountains up above. 30 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:58.560 All right, so let's start here. How does all this 31 00:01:59.159 --> 00:01:59.920 start for you? 32 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:14.360 Well, my intention for my own life has been sort 33 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:23.000 of unfolding. I think my childhood was very difficult, and 34 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:27.000 the way that I survived it was trying to fit 35 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:36.879 in and be achievement oriented. And so I put a 36 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:39.280 whole bunch of different hurdles, like if only I could 37 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:42.039 graduate from college. Then it was like if only I 38 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:46.639 could get a law degree. Of all of these hurdles 39 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:55.199 to try to make myself feel better internally, And at 40 00:02:55.240 --> 00:03:00.479 some point I realized that that wasn't actually working, and 41 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:05.800 that the outer kind of goals that I was setting 42 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:11.639 for myself really every time the bar just got higher, 43 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:16.319 but the healing wasn't actually happening for me, and so 44 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:21.120 I had to take a different approach, if you will. 45 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.759 Okay, Okay, that's the big picture here, So we're going 46 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:30.919 to dive in what was going on? Well, when you 47 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:35.039 said you had a difficult situation, what was going on? Yeah, 48 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:37.039 the extent that you feel comfortable talking about it. 49 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:42.520 I'm happy to share. My parents were married when they 50 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:46.479 were very young. My mom was in the early sixties, 51 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.120 and my mom got pregnant with my older brother, and 52 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.400 you know, by the time she was seventeen, she had 53 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:55.919 a baby and dropped out of high school, which was 54 00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:01.039 kind of expected then in a way. Then I came 55 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.360 along two years later. By the time I was four, 56 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:11.840 my parents were divorced. They were young, alcohol, all the 57 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:17.120 things that were happening in the sixties. And I lived 58 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:21.680 with my mom for probably a short time, maybe for 59 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:27.639 six months, and then she ran off to Dallas, leaving 60 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:31.959 me with my father and older brother. So that was 61 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:37.680 the first kind of primary abandonment, if you will. And 62 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:43.439 then I was deeply affected by that because I thought 63 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.920 that it was my fault. The morning before she left, 64 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:50.800 I had been crying because my socks didn't match, and 65 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:53.399 she was trying to get me to Kinderhorn, and I 66 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:55.519 really there was some part of me that thought she 67 00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:00.680 left because I'm a bad person. I was, you know. 68 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:04.319 I took that on as my own kind of if 69 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:07.480 there's something wrong with me, if you will, that core belief. 70 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:14.839 And so that was traumatic. I had nightmares, I wet 71 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.279 the bed, I stopped speaking. I had for first and 72 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:20.680 second grade. I went to a speech therapist. All of that. 73 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:28.199 We moved to another school, kind of starting over. But 74 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:33.120 my dad then met a woman and remarried, and she 75 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:39.480 was a very unkind woman, if you will. She was 76 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:43.639 deeply insecure and deeply angry. I wouldn't go so far 77 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.000 as if you were going to ask me for a diagnosis, 78 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.240 I would say she was a narcissist and possibly malignant narcissist. 79 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.519 But anyway, so she took kind of control of our 80 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:58.720 family and isolated us from our our cousins and uncles 81 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:02.439 and aunts and kind of grandparents, and created this kind 82 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:07.519 of place where I became the scapegoat of the family, 83 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:13.800 which was harrowing. I never felt safe at home if 84 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.480 I did something wrong. I never knew what exactly it 85 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:20.040 was that would kind of trigger her. But then she 86 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.560 would go for weeks with that speaking to me, or 87 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:25.480 at one point she had my older brother and I 88 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.120 trust tested because she was telling everybody that we had 89 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:32.480 and I know this is a politically uncorrect word, but 90 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:35.759 it's the word she used toward me when I was 91 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.160 like in the third grade, which you're retarded, you need 92 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.399 you know. So it just went on and on, and 93 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:44.639 then of course the test came back that we weren't retarded, 94 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:48.680 but that was never amplified. It was always anyway, I 95 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.439 was the scapegoat, and so that environment was hostile and 96 00:06:53.480 --> 00:07:01.160 it felt extremely unwelcoming and unsafe, and so that was 97 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:09.160 kind of the childhood trauma, if you will. And I 98 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:13.000 had core beliefs that I was unlovable and that I 99 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:15.319 was bad, and that I was stupid in all of 100 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:21.120 these things. And yet at school I was going really 101 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:24.680 high on the tests, and you know, there were all 102 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:27.560 I was really athletic. I spent a lot of time 103 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:33.839 outside running around. So there was kind of a disconnect 104 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:38.720 in a way between my inner reality of what I 105 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:40.959 thought was true and what the what I was actually 106 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.600 presenting to the outside world. And then that became my 107 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:46.879 way of surviving. It was just like, it doesn't feel 108 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.720 good inside, but if I can make it, if I 109 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.279 can achieve on the outside, well you know, at least 110 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:59.079 I'm not disappearing or I don't know how to say it, 111 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:01.439 but I think to understand what I'm saying. 112 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.759 Yeah, So how do things unfold for you as you 113 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:08.720 get older? Through high school? How are you managing? I 114 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:11.839 guess this is how you're managing one way as things evolve. 115 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:16.519 Do you go to college? What are you thinking? I 116 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.040 want to be x Y or Z. Let's I want 117 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:24.720 to get into How do you start thinking about or 118 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:28.000 feeling into becoming a guide and an author and writing 119 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.000 about these topics? 120 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:35.679 That was I guess that's a reflection of my own 121 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:40.879 healing path, if you will. And high school was difficult 122 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.799 because my mom had moved back from Dallas. I moved 123 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:50.000 in with her. That she didn't have the boundaries, She 124 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:51.559 wasn't able to show up as a parent. It was 125 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.639 more like we were roommates. That was a whole nother 126 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:58.559 kind of abandoning wound. And at some point I went 127 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:02.000 into a deep depress Rusian and I realized that I 128 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:06.159 needed structure, so I moved back in with my dad 129 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.279 and stepmother, which was a whole other, very difficult thing, 130 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:15.360 but it was a survival decision. And from there there 131 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.159 was no support for me going to college because everyone 132 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:24.879 thought that I was just really not capable, if you will. 133 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.919 So when I graduated, I took a year off and 134 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.320 got a job, got my own apartment. All of my 135 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.720 friends were going after college, and at some point there 136 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:40.480 was some inner voice that said, I have got to 137 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:43.840 get my college degree. You know, I was working in 138 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.519 a ski's shop. I was really doing a good job. 139 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:51.600 It was obvious that I was very capable, and I 140 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:56.200 took myself into the admissions office and from there I 141 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.759 paid my way through college. And that was like my 142 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.279 first kind of hurdle life. I'll feel so much better. 143 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:04.000 My self esteem is getting a skyrocket if only I 144 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:07.639 get that college degree. Right. So, and it did it. 145 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:12.360 It was helpful, and college was challenging. I think I 146 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:15.159 I had episodes of depression throughout, but it was just 147 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:19.000 like one foot in front of the other. And when 148 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:25.919 I got my degree, it was an accomplishment, but it 149 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.799 didn't change the way I felt about myself internally. I 150 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:34.759 got a job, I got married to an older man, 151 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:37.080 who already had three kids. And I think that was 152 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:42.360 my way of, you know, finding finally safety and a 153 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:46.559 place where I kind of had this sudden, kind of 154 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:53.919 intact family. And I was a great step parent, and 155 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:58.000 I was doing the brownies and you know, all the 156 00:10:58.159 --> 00:10:59.600 soccer games and. 157 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:01.159 All everything you're supposed to do. 158 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:05.440 Yeah, exactly, let me showing up for them. And in 159 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:07.480 a way that was healing for me because I had 160 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:10.639 never had that. But it wasn't enough. And I said 161 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:14.159 another hurdle, which was if only I had a graduate 162 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:19.360 level degree. And so I was looking around, and I 163 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:21.440 decided to go to law school, and so I got 164 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:22.320 a degree in law. 165 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.559 Wow, hang on, let me just around. Let me interject 166 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:29.440 you for a second. Up to this point, how you 167 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:37.440 sought out any kind of therapy or quote unquote help. Yes, okay, look. 168 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.120 That's a good point. When I was in high school, 169 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.799 I when I moved, when I was living with my mom, 170 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:50.039 it was I was really in a I realized that 171 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.639 I needed help. So that was I I sought out therapy. 172 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:55.919 And I was working with a therapist at the end 173 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:58.000 of my senior year just to get through high school 174 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:04.039 because I just was so shut down. So That was 175 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:08.720 kind of the first help and she was just helping me, Okay, 176 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:11.159 you need structure, how would it feel moved back in 177 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.600 with Dad and Kate even just get out of this, 178 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:20.840 So that was really helpful. Then in college, I had 179 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:26.200 a therapist for about a year and a half that 180 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:28.879 I was working with, and that was also really helpful 181 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:32.240 and supportive, and it basically was just having someone kind 182 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:36.240 of say you're What I needed to hear at that 183 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:40.279 time was you're okay, You're not crazy. You are having 184 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:43.159 depression and it's an effective disorder that's caused by all 185 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.639 of this stress and trauma that you've experienced in your 186 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:48.399 young life. You know that kind of thing, rather than 187 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:52.840 oh my god, you know I'm insane and this is 188 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:56.000 a never ending, suffering kind of thing. So that helped 189 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:04.360 define what was actually happening. And then throughout those years 190 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:09.960 of that marriage, I also sought therapy, and it was 191 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:14.399 never long lasting. It was always like I would wait 192 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:19.960 until I hit a a downward kind of spiral and think, Okay, 193 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.799 I need help, and then I get therapy. I tried 194 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:30.480 antidepressants a few times, anything to just keep myself alive 195 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:36.000 and afloat. If you will, and functioning. But when I 196 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:40.480 was thirty, I started long distance running. I had my 197 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.720 law degree. You know, I was working for legal aid, 198 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:47.919 which is an extremely stressful kind of law practice because 199 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.919 you're dealing with people who are being evicted or domestic 200 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:57.039 on the civil side, domestic abuse, kidnapping, family law matters 201 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:04.000 that are very difficult. And that that was also part 202 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:10.039 of my giving of myself to feel better about myself. 203 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.840 But it also taught me so much about human nature 204 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:21.320 and how resilience actually is alive in people. But I 205 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.279 think the first kind of awakening was I started long 206 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.960 distance running. I decided to train for a marathon that 207 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:33.960 led to a few kind of many triathlons, And during 208 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:38.399 some of my long runs, I would get into that zone, 209 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:43.919 if you will, they call it the runner's peak, and 210 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:51.039 I could feel this different possibility within my being. You know, 211 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:56.799 I was present, I was you know, every the mind 212 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:01.399 stopped racing and trying to get ahead or fall behind, 213 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.600 and I was just in the in this zone and 214 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:09.000 at peace with myself. And I recognized that this was 215 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.639 a possibility within me, and that it didn't have to 216 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:16.639 only happen when I was running, that it was something 217 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:21.320 that I could actually cultivate. So that started my journey 218 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:29.000 with meditation and spirituality, if you will. I understood that 219 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:33.559 that this possibility was in essence my true nature somehow 220 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.720 on those those long runs, and I longed for that. 221 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.519 I longed to not always be kind of striving to please, 222 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.080 or giving myself away, or unable to set boundaries for 223 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:49.000 fear of abandonment, all of those kind of childhood adaptive 224 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:53.600 patterns that actually helped me survive. I'm very grateful for them, 225 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.080 but they weren't working anymore, if you will. So then 226 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:04.679 I started a journey of medita haiti. And as you 227 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:10.639 start to kind of change your lens of what feels 228 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:12.519 right for you, then the people in your life start 229 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:17.919 to shift to right, and a lot of friends dropped away. 230 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:25.120 I got divorced, had to kind of start over, and 231 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.960 so that was the beginning of my actual healing journey. 232 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:34.840 And I think it's fair to say that the therapists that 233 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:39.240 I saw early on were super helpful, and it just 234 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:41.919 felt like a band aid, like because then there would 235 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.039 be another trigger and then I would fall right back 236 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:47.440 into those same symptoms because I truly hadn't healed what 237 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:53.279 was underneath. I was addressing what the surface problems more 238 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:58.919 or less how to function. So I through word of mouth, 239 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.159 I met an elder therapist who was also a spiritual 240 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.480 teacher spent most of his adult life in India. And 241 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.359 it was so funny because my first session with him, 242 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:11.240 he said, well, tell me about yourself, kind of like 243 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.640 we're doing here. And when I finished, instead of saying 244 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.400 which is that I appreciate the therapist, I'm not knocking 245 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.640 therapy at all, which is like, oh my god, poor you. 246 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.200 Your childhood, how traumatic, he just looked at me with 247 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.519 these really wise eyes and said, wow, why did you 248 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:34.240 choose those parents? And I was like, what, you know? 249 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:37.039 My eyes probably got really big, and I think I 250 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.200 was a bit offended. But that became a con for 251 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:45.119 me in my journey because ultimately it set me free 252 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:49.400 of the idea that I was the victim of anything 253 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:53.759 in my life. That ultimately this self responsibility, like I 254 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:57.000 chose this, this is my path, And then you think, okay, 255 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.200 well why did I choose this? It's something that I 256 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.279 can heal, and when I heal this, you know I'm 257 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:08.000 also healing. I didn't know this. Then this is hindsight. 258 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:11.119 I should clarify it. But it was also very healing 259 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.839 from my mom and I think for my lineage as well, 260 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.279 So that's kind of that's a. 261 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.319 Very interesting response. You know, obviously why did you choose 262 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:29.720 as parents? And I mean, I think a lot of 263 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:34.079 people you know might have a response to that of 264 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:40.599 you did, but you know, you said, well that kind 265 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:43.359 of switched things around or flip things around such that 266 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.559 you know, I could take responsibility for it and then 267 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:51.720 begin my healing. But healing can happen from any perspective, 268 00:18:51.799 --> 00:19:00.400 right absolutely in a sense. So what strikes me about you, 269 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:07.359 Irani is your insight into everything that transpired and your 270 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:14.599 experiences is growing up and the trauma involved, but they're 271 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:19.000 all at these specific stages, and I think epitomize with 272 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:24.400 your running, there seem to pop up these bright sunshine 273 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.720 moments where you get to see like your essence and 274 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.440 your power and your strength come through and you ran, 275 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:35.039 not to make a little pun here, but you ran 276 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:37.759 with it right, you took it, and those seemed to 277 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.519 be really important triggers for or impetuses for your healing, 278 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:45.640 which is really really cool. So let's kind of move 279 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:50.680 forward a little bit. When do you decide I'm going 280 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:53.200 to be an author. When do you switch into this, like, 281 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:56.279 maybe I can be a guide and what does that 282 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:02.920 mean to you to be a guide? 283 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:10.799 Well, my my, my journey. I never set out to 284 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:17.799 be a guide, and I think we should be clear 285 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:28.440 when we're talking about a guide, we're talking about somebody 286 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.359 who sits with someone in in in presence. That's that's 287 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.559 how I would define it. What happened for me is 288 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:42.759 I got mm HM tow to start to work and 289 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.480 help support uh of Shaman in South America. I started 290 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.759 doing Sacred Clant medicine down there and he asked me 291 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.799 to support and so eventually that led to me bringing 292 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:03.079 people down on two weeks takered hunt medicine what we 293 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.200 call diatas, that healing process, and there was when you're 294 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:12.559 bringing people, there's an entry point where you're talking to 295 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:14.960 the people and making sure they're ready and they understand 296 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.079 the experience that they're signing up for in essence, and 297 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.599 then there's an exit point where you want to make 298 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:23.079 sure you're available for them as they're coming back into 299 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.079 the real world. So for me, it was just a 300 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.839 natural part of being in service to this work, which 301 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.160 is a tradition that's thousands and thousands of years old. 302 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.960 And so I started having sessions with these people before preparation, 303 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:44.960 setting intention, making sure they were grounded and aware of understanding, 304 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:49.200 you know, how to breathe under pressure, like simple things 305 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.920 like that. Really, but and then on the outer helping 306 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.480 them land and ground. And as I was just meeting 307 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.400 with these people who were friends or fellow travelers or 308 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.759 you know, people who I was bringing to the work, 309 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:12.640 the word of mouth kind of happened, and then people 310 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:15.519 started reaching out and saying, Hey, I've heard from someone 311 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:17.920 so that you're doing sessions and I'd like a session. 312 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:23.559 And so from there I thought, oh, I was still 313 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.079 practicing law a part time. I had an estate planning practice, 314 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:31.279 but I was really enjoying these sessions of just being 315 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:36.000 with people and holding space and allowing them to kind 316 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:41.200 of I think that abiding presence is really the most 317 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.640 important medicine people can receive in their process. It's like 318 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.519 somebody is not trying to fix or change them, but 319 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:53.119 just being with them and allowing them to hold whatever 320 00:22:53.319 --> 00:23:00.400 they're holding and share what is surfacing without judgment. So 321 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:06.839 that was my initial approach, and people kept coming and 322 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:11.240 so I thought I could use some tools. Many of 323 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:16.160 my dearest friends are therapist. My partner, my beloved is 324 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:21.480 a therapist. I have many friends who are se therapists. 325 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:27.880 I've been in deep processes, a path of lovery treats 326 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.519 staff path of lovery treats. Many of my friends are 327 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:35.200 path of Love leaders and all of the things. So 328 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:39.759 I have like this kind of random bag of tools. 329 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:45.200 And I heard about gaber Matte's Compassionate Inquiry year long training, 330 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:49.279 and I thought, oh, maybe that's what I need to do. 331 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:51.359 And I thought, well, I'm not a therapist. I had 332 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:53.279 actually thought about going back to school and getting a 333 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:58.119 master's but at that point I felt like there was 334 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:02.039 a It didn't resonate. It seemed like a logical mind 335 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.599 solution to a problem, but it didn't land in my body. 336 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.599 So I took the year long Compassionate Inquiry training, and 337 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:14.240 in that training, I got in through the fact that 338 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:17.039 I'm a Kundalini Yoga teacher. You have to be a professional, 339 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:21.039 so I had a life coach certificate in Kundalini Yoga. 340 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:25.319 Most of the people in that training are therapists. But 341 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:28.960 so in the year long training, it was like all 342 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:31.119 of these tools that I had kind of scrambled in 343 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:36.720 my bag became cohesive and made sense. So from there 344 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:44.359 I started offering the compassionate inquiry sessions officially, if you will, 345 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:47.480 and from there, oh, go ahead. 346 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:53.000 Seconds. So you mentioned the abiding presence and how important 347 00:24:53.039 --> 00:25:01.480 that was. When did that become clear to you how 348 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:05.559 important that was that ingredient? 349 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:09.759 Well, I think it was obvious to me from the 350 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:14.359 get go, because I'm coming from a perspective of my 351 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:25.319 understanding of meditation, and so there, since I wasn't coming 352 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:29.240 in as a therapist, I never had the inclination to 353 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.400 try to use tools that I didn't have. What I 354 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:40.039 had was my deep, committed meditation practice, and so that's 355 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.200 what I and when I was sitting with the people 356 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.920 seeking integration, you know, that's what I had to offer. 357 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:49.319 And then, like I refer to all of those scrambled tools, 358 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:53.200 naturally the people coming to integration would want to say, uh, well, 359 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:55.160 I'm trying to figure this out, and this happened, and 360 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:58.160 this happened, and this happened, and I would say that 361 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.480 I wouldn't say this, but understanding was all of this 362 00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:04.359 is the mind trying to trying to define and make 363 00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:11.680 sense of possibly on something that's unknowable. So my natural 364 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.799 inclination was to bring them into a state of more 365 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.960 attuned presence, if you were, and just instead of trying, 366 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.599 and so I would say, you know, this is your mind. 367 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.680 You're trying to figure all of this out. But you 368 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:29.119 have other intelligence centers, if you will, and this comes 369 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:34.200 from the Kundalini yoga training and the Eastern teachers that 370 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:37.920 I worked with. You have other intelligence centers that are 371 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:51.839 probably more able to integrate than this perferring mind. And 372 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.799 so working with people to tap into their naval center 373 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:59.039 and open their heart center the emotions allow the subtle, 374 00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:04.039 neutral mind to actually have connection to those that's all. 375 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:09.920 That's all part of meditation, if you will. So I 376 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:15.839 guess I understood that was my role from the get go, 377 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:19.480 that I wasn't trying to fix or change anybody, that 378 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.640 I was trying to share with them my understanding of 379 00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:26.839 how I was able to integrate, because of course, at 380 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.799 times I had the scrambling mind, but I knew that 381 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:31.839 if I could go into my deep breath work and 382 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:35.559 just be that the scrambling mind would stop, and on 383 00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:39.640 some cellular level, the answer was already there, not that 384 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:43.279 it was quote an answer, but that sense of okay, 385 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:45.880 you know right, yeah. 386 00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:49.000 Yeah, I love that. That resonates a lot with me 387 00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:58.119 and I think with a lot of other nope, uh therapists. 388 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:02.920 Licensed therapists are people who call themselves were actually therapists. 389 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.640 It gets to it gets to a point, and sometimes 390 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.000 it takes a long time for I think the therapists 391 00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:15.599 to realize that, you know, just what you said. It's 392 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.480 not always easy. But let's kind of I want to 393 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:19.920 as we kind of wine down here, I want to 394 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:28.640 kind of talk about your books. You've written four, let's 395 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:33.440 pick one, and uh share with us when you decided 396 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:34.000 to write it. 397 00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:40.200 How Why Well, I've only written two, okay, and the 398 00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:46.359 I wrote okay, Actually that's not true. I wrote I 399 00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:48.960 wrote a book on integration when I was and I'll 400 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:51.319 be really quick with this, when I was starting to 401 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.559