Speaker 1: And we're also building very sophisticated smart contract applications, so
Speaker 1: we have one every Microsoft Xbox video game. All those
Speaker 1: purchases are processed using a smart contract developed for EY
Speaker 1: and deployed for Microsoft.
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by Gemini, which is
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Speaker 2: So if you'd like to learn more about Gemini, visit
Speaker 2: the link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Tony Edward, and with me today is
Speaker 2: Paul Brody, who is the global blockchain leader at e
Speaker 2: Y also the chairman of the Ethereum Enterprise alliance and
Speaker 2: also an author. Paul, great to have you on Hey.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Paul.
Speaker 2: I'm super excited to speak with you. I've followed EY
Speaker 2: for years. Of course, I've seen the brand in different places.
Speaker 2: On the Garden State Parkway that I drive down here
Speaker 2: in New Jersey, I see the EY logo and a building,
Speaker 2: and the fact that you folks are building with blockchain
Speaker 2: and doing all types of great things has me really excited.
Speaker 2: So I want to learn all the details. But before
Speaker 2: we get there, tell us about yourself on your background.
Speaker 1: So jeez, that's a wonderful open ended question. I really
Speaker 1: I got into the blockchain business by accident, kind of
Speaker 1: an entirely unintentional way. I used to I've always kind
Speaker 1: of been in the technology business, and before I came
Speaker 1: to EY, I spent about fourteen years at IBM, And
Speaker 1: while I was at IBM, I got very excited about
Speaker 1: sort of cloud computing and especially distributed computing, where these
Speaker 1: devices that we own are getting very, very smart. And
Speaker 1: one of the really strange things about these super smart
Speaker 1: devices we own is that somehow we still need all
Speaker 1: this cloud infrastructure to manage them. And I got into
Speaker 1: this idea of Hey, if the devices are really smart,
Speaker 1: we should be able to make software where the devices
Speaker 1: managed themselves. And so we started looking. I had a
Speaker 1: little research team. We started looking at a decentralized and
Speaker 1: distributed computing and somebody came to me they said, hey,
Speaker 1: bigcoin is like a decentralized computing thing, and I got
Speaker 1: very excited. I's like, wow, it looks really amazing. It's
Speaker 1: it's decentralized computing, it's permissionless, and it's even got kind
Speaker 1: of a flo of money in it. And we were
Speaker 1: going down this bitcoin path, which was already very exciting,
Speaker 1: when somebody came to me and said, you know, I
Speaker 1: found something that's really cool. It's like Bitcoin but programmable.
Speaker 1: And I've met this guy. His name is Metallic. You
Speaker 1: got to meet him, and that like directed us again.
Speaker 1: And honestly, once I went down this road, I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, we built IBM's very first blockchain product,
Speaker 1: which was for kind of smart devices. We launched it
Speaker 1: with Samsung as a prototype, but also for me, it
Speaker 1: really kind of changed my life. It's like, this is it,
Speaker 1: this is the future. I want to go do this.
Speaker 2: And when did you meet Metallic? Was that before etherorem
Speaker 2: became a thing, or was it In the early days
Speaker 2: after I launched.
Speaker 1: We were actually working on the alpha version of Ethereum
Speaker 1: when I was at IBM, so this was this was
Speaker 1: like twenty thirteen. My engineering team was working on this
Speaker 1: and we really got ramping up in twenty fourteen and
Speaker 1: we showed we showed our protoce pipe with Samsung at
Speaker 1: the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas in January twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: And I have this great picture. It's it's so funny.
Speaker 1: It's like the IBM crew on one side, and it's
Speaker 1: the it's the Samsung crew on the other and in
Speaker 1: the middle are like me and Vitalic and you know
Speaker 1: it just like, I keep that picture because it's it's
Speaker 1: such a fun reminder, like we had no idea what
Speaker 1: we're doing. We didn't know what was going to become
Speaker 1: a huge thing. But I think for a lot of
Speaker 1: the people in that picture, certainly for me, it really
Speaker 1: changes the course of my career.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, that's amazing. And I'm sure you have that frame,
Speaker 2: that picture frame somewhere in your office or something like that.
Speaker 1: I had to say in my office, but I know
Speaker 1: where it is in my like iPhoto archive. And it's
Speaker 1: funny actually because I you know, I've stayed in touch
Speaker 1: with him Talaic. He wrote like a nice little forward
Speaker 1: for my book and I send him a copy and
Speaker 1: it's actually really cool. A couple of weeks ago he
Speaker 1: DMed me and he's like, you know, I've just been
Speaker 1: reading your book and I want to talk about like
Speaker 1: you know, some of these like protocols that you kind
Speaker 1: of envisioned. And I was like, wow, that is so
Speaker 1: it's very exciting, you know. It is so awesome when
Speaker 1: people come up to you like, hey, I was reading
Speaker 1: your book and I thought about this, or I read
Speaker 1: your book and it caused me to change like how
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the business or my career path stuff
Speaker 1: like that. It's it's it's really awesome. It's also, honestly,
Speaker 1: it's a little bit scary because you feel like this responsibility,
Speaker 1: like I, when did I become a role model for people?
Speaker 1: For sure?
Speaker 2: So tell us a bit more about your book. It
Speaker 2: is the topic is of course, arounding your theorem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the book is called the Theoeum for Business
Speaker 1: and what I For a long time, I spent so
Speaker 1: much of my time, especially in ey I just kind
Speaker 1: of explaining to people, like, first of all, what is crypto,
Speaker 1: what is blochain, and like cows that work. But also,
Speaker 1: you know, the inevitable next question from people is what's
Speaker 1: the point? Why what are you doing with this stuff?
Speaker 1: Like why does any of this matter? Why is bitcoin important?
Speaker 1: Why is the theory important? And so I wrote the
Speaker 1: book to kind of answer those questions in playing English
Speaker 1: with no technical jargon. And so there's three parts of
Speaker 1: the book. The first part is in very plain English,
Speaker 1: what are blockchains right? How does the theory work? Why
Speaker 1: is it actually really important to have a public blockchain,
Speaker 1: Why is it that permission private blockchains are really not
Speaker 1: a super constructive, helpful thing to have around, and why
Speaker 1: in particular is privacy technology important part of the overall
Speaker 1: blockchain picture. So that's that's the first part. The second part,
Speaker 1: the main chunk of the book, is like twenty chapters
Speaker 1: on specific use cases Payman's supply chain management, procurement, carbon
Speaker 1: emissions tracking, things that businesses can do that are practical
Speaker 1: and useful on ethereum with this technology. And then the
Speaker 1: last part there's a little bit of a section which
Speaker 1: is just on things like you know, what's an audit?
Speaker 1: You know, this is a business. By the way, people
Speaker 1: are running around with this business saying, oh, we did
Speaker 1: the audit, We've been security audited, we've been audits. Like no,
Speaker 1: all these people who are saying that their audits like
Speaker 1: that most of the things that people talk about as
Speaker 1: audits are not really audits. Their reviews or their assessments,
Speaker 1: but they're not audits, right, And I speak at somebody,
Speaker 1: I'm not an account but I do work as an
Speaker 1: audit from I do. Actually, in almost ten years, I
Speaker 1: finally figured out what an audit is and whatever it is.
Speaker 1: It's not all this security stuff that people claim to
Speaker 1: be doing, right, And so I kind of explained like
Speaker 1: what is an audit? Right? What is a real audit? Like,
Speaker 1: what is not an audit? How do you actually kind
Speaker 1: of check security properly? And also just other things that
Speaker 1: people ask a lot about in the bit were like,
Speaker 1: you know, what's the what's the carbon foot print of eterium?
Speaker 1: Is this like a huge problem, Like isn't it crazy
Speaker 1: to use a blockchain to track emissions? It's the carbon
Speaker 1: equipment is really high, And so kind of just dispel
Speaker 1: a lot of the miss and misunderstandings that people have
Speaker 1: around this technology.
Speaker 2: I love it. And one of the challenges I've seen
Speaker 2: over the years is the education and awareness is not
Speaker 2: there of the use cases. And sometimes people, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: they follow headlines, they listen to some skeptic we said, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a fax machine or there's no use for it, right,
Speaker 2: But there are uses, there are release use cases, and
Speaker 2: it will solve a lot of problems. I love that
Speaker 2: your book explains that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people were saying like, oh, NFT is just a
Speaker 1: little bit of barts. No, NFTs are essential for industrial infrastructure.
Speaker 1: Every every car, every piece of factory machinery, every every
Speaker 1: satellite in orbit. That's an NFT. It's a non fundatable,
Speaker 1: unique guide.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And you are also the chairman of the enterprise.
Speaker 2: It's give me the Etherem Enterprise Alliance. Tell us about
Speaker 2: what you're doing there and the initiatives and so forth.
Speaker 1: So the real purpose of the EEA is to as
Speaker 1: a group represent the etherium business users, right, to get
Speaker 1: us together. And you know we're we're a very sort
Speaker 1: of fun but boring industry association, right. We do meetups,
Speaker 1: we do conferences, we're sponsoring like a business day called
Speaker 1: Industry Day at DevCon next month in Thailands. So we
Speaker 1: have meetups, We work on standards we just published like
Speaker 1: defied risk standards, we published cross chain interoperability standards, so
Speaker 1: and we you know, we basically work on education as well.
Speaker 1: We are here both to talk to the Ethereum Foundation
Speaker 1: about what business users want and we're also here to
Speaker 1: talk to the business world about how you make use
Speaker 1: of Ethereum and really educate people about the practical applications
Speaker 1: of this technology.
Speaker 2: So let's talk EY. For those who may not know
Speaker 2: about the firm. I know what it is, but you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes people haven't heard about the brand, or they may
Speaker 2: have heard of Ernest thing young and not realize it's EY.
Speaker 2: Tell us about the company a quick overview, and also
Speaker 2: some of the blockchain initiatives you're working on.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So EY is one of these sort of what
Speaker 1: the people call the big four global professional services firms.
Speaker 1: They're all grounded in financial statement auditing, but they all
Speaker 1: also offer consulting, usually tax advice in some country legal
Speaker 1: services as well, right, so they're just really big professional
Speaker 1: services firms, you know, firms like EY. We serve pretty
Speaker 1: much every big company out ours You can think of
Speaker 1: a big company, either we are their auditor, or we
Speaker 1: provide tax advice, or we provide consulting advice like we are,
Speaker 1: or we do kind of system integration work. So firms
Speaker 1: like euy have this this direct path into the world's
Speaker 1: largest businesses and we do a lot of kind of
Speaker 1: essential services for them. And you know, from my point
Speaker 1: of view, we are therefore also an incredible mechanism to
Speaker 1: deliver transformation around blockchain technology. Right if if you ask,
Speaker 1: like any CFO, any chief financial officer, hey, do you
Speaker 1: have to say payment and bitcoin? Like would you use
Speaker 1: stable coins? The first thing they're going to say is,
Speaker 1: let me check with my auditor, let me check with
Speaker 1: my financing, let me check with my technology team. Is
Speaker 1: it safe to do it? Is it legal? Can we
Speaker 1: do it? And we have to pay taxes on it?
Speaker 1: And so I see, you know, particularly for the blockchain
Speaker 1: team of hy I see this path for us where
Speaker 1: we our mission is to make the world's business users
Speaker 1: feel comfortable, ready and able to go use this technology,
Speaker 1: and that takes a bunch of different forms. By far,
Speaker 1: the biggest thing we do is just financial statement audits.
Speaker 1: All that like a ton of these cryptocurrency exchanges. We've
Speaker 1: built a lot of technology for audits. You know, some
Speaker 1: things that are very simple but super important. Like let's
Speaker 1: say you've give an exchange one thousand dollars to buy
Speaker 1: some bitcoin for you. One of the things that our
Speaker 1: technology does, and one of the things that auditors do,
Speaker 1: is they say, okay, they got one thousand dollars, and
Speaker 1: we match their financial transactions, their internal record of a
Speaker 1: transaction with what's on chain, Like if we add up
Speaker 1: all the money that was given to this exchange, do
Speaker 1: they have that much bitcoin on shame? Like? Can we
Speaker 1: verify that? That is kind of a foundational thing that
Speaker 1: that auditors do, and they do other things like check
Speaker 1: for you know, are you properly separating duties? Like do
Speaker 1: you make sure that nobody's pledging bitcoin that you owe
Speaker 1: your depositors to say somebody else. So financial favorite audit
Speaker 1: is hugely important and I think critical to giving people
Speaker 1: confidence that companies can they can buy and safe for
Speaker 1: use crypt though with other businesses.
Speaker 2: I love that. Sorry go ahead, No, I was going
Speaker 2: to say the keyword you use there is critical because
Speaker 2: in a post FTX world, we see how important that is.
Speaker 2: And no, commingling these exchanges have the funds they say
Speaker 2: they have, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: that I've been really happy to see is like, for example,
Speaker 1: with the marketing crypto assets regulation in the European Union,
Speaker 1: they've laid out a really good regulatory framework and it
Speaker 1: will It has a clear role for what auditors are
Speaker 1: supposed to do, what kind of business controls companies are
Speaker 1: supposed to put in, and you know this this is
Speaker 1: really really great because without it, people don't often know
Speaker 1: even what to ask for. But with it, the rules
Speaker 1: are very clear. If you're going to play in this market,
Speaker 1: you need to have these certain controls just like those
Speaker 1: in place, hugely important, right And I also, by the way,
Speaker 1: like it's a much better marketplace when people are all
Speaker 1: operating legitimately. I can tell you it's super frustrating for
Speaker 1: legitimate businesses to compete with frauds because frauds can make
Speaker 1: promises legitimate businesses can't match. Right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you were mentioning there was a second item of
Speaker 2: related to what you're doing as hard as initiatives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if I think about sort of the stuff
Speaker 1: that we do, one is financial statement audits right, and
Speaker 1: then in addition to financial statement audits, we also build
Speaker 1: applications and do business services. So we have consulting services,
Speaker 1: we do implementations, we build things kind of for higher
Speaker 1: for clients. But additionally, we are really and we're quite
Speaker 1: unique in this compared to pretty much any of the
Speaker 1: big professional services firms. We are building applications on top
Speaker 1: of it. The area and our applications are for business
Speaker 1: users and we build quite a few of them. So
Speaker 1: one of the ones that we built is a smart
Speaker 1: contract security testing system. You can actually go in, you
Speaker 1: can test your smart contracts, you can simulate smart contracts,
Speaker 1: and you can also hire us to do a full
Speaker 1: security review of your smart contracts. Secondly, we are building
Speaker 1: more sort of direct operational business application so we have
Speaker 1: one that is for minting NFTs. We have one for
Speaker 1: supply chain traceability. We're tracking I think something in the
Speaker 1: order of like six or seven million bottles of wine,
Speaker 1: millions of bottles of beer, like many many tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of vaccines. Like that's a very typical application. And
Speaker 1: we're also building very sophisticated smart contract applications. So we
Speaker 1: have one every Microsoft Xbox video game. All those purchases
Speaker 1: are processed using a smart contract developed for EY and
Speaker 1: deployed for Microsoft.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: We've also just started a really cool program that we're
Speaker 1: rolling out, which is it enables companies to manage their
Speaker 1: renewable energy purchasing, their green electric purchasing on a blockchain
Speaker 1: using a smart contract built with privacy technology, so your
Speaker 1: competitors cannot see what you're doing.
Speaker 2: So that was going to be my next question. Are
Speaker 2: these blockchains that are being built on top of eight
Speaker 2: are they private? Assuming their permission? So it's just within
Speaker 2: the enterprise.
Speaker 1: They're generally not permission in the case of Microsoft, so
Speaker 1: very early on and we are again, so we're super
Speaker 1: unusual in the sentence that euy is really the only
Speaker 1: big firm that made a commitment pretty much from day
Speaker 1: one that our priority are public blockchains. Now that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that we never do kind of permission systems. We
Speaker 1: do from time to time, but so the most part,
Speaker 1: we really try to build on public chains. Specifically, we're
Speaker 1: a very ethereum centric. We're a build on an ethereum organization,
Speaker 1: and that's just that's just for me. It's it's very strategic,
Speaker 1: Like I would rather be the best in the world
Speaker 1: at Ethereum than okay, like five different things, Like it's
Speaker 1: just about focus, right, I have a limited engineering budget.
Speaker 1: I want to be great at Ethereum. The thing that
Speaker 1: is important and the reason why people are always embracing
Speaker 1: permission change is enterprises needed privacy. Right. No company wants
Speaker 1: to show their competition what they're buying, where it's going,
Speaker 1: how much they're paying. And so the last thing that
Speaker 1: we do, and one of the things I'm especially proud of,
Speaker 1: is we do privacy technology research. So lots of companies
Speaker 1: for a decade, lots of companies people have looked at
Speaker 1: the ethereum and said, scalability is a problem. I looked
Speaker 1: at Ethereum and I said, privacy is the gap, and
Speaker 1: very few people are working on privacy. And so we
Speaker 1: made it our priority, and we have built and industrialize
Speaker 1: the tools that make it possible for companies to transact
Speaker 1: with privacy on top of public Etherium, and we've donated
Speaker 1: those tools into the public domain so anybody can use them.
Speaker 2: Now, there have been people that said why, and it's
Speaker 2: not me, but just questions in general, why would someone
Speaker 2: build an ether given that maybe it's slower from a
Speaker 2: transaction standpoint, because there are layer twos that help to
Speaker 2: uh scale it and improve transaction speed but also transaction costs.
Speaker 2: So tell us a bit about that. Is it the security?
Speaker 2: These these companies want security and they want something that
Speaker 2: is trusted and you know that works.
Speaker 1: So layer twos in my point of view, are Ethereum.
Speaker 1: They're they're even compatible. They build on top of Etherium.
Speaker 1: So when I say that we build on Etheroereum, the
Speaker 1: truth is actually from most of the things that we do,
Speaker 1: we actually deploy on top of an L two or
Speaker 1: a side cham like Polygon or Base or some of
Speaker 1: these others. Right. And in fact, our privacy tool that
Speaker 1: we built called Nightfall, that we put into the public domain,
Speaker 1: it's it's deployed on the Polygon proof of state network,
Speaker 1: but it can also be deployed on like Base. It
Speaker 1: can be deployed on Ethereum as an L two on
Speaker 1: basis an L three for example. So you know Ethereum
Speaker 1: plus the L two is are the Ethereum ecosystem. Now
Speaker 1: the point you make, though is a good one. People
Speaker 1: are like, well, why not all these other chains, because
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that you can get
Speaker 1: sucked into really easily. Is this whole discussion of like hey,
Speaker 1: x y Z chain has a faster finality or whatever.
Speaker 1: I regard that as a kind of those kinds of
Speaker 1: debates as a little bit of a dead end. Historically
Speaker 1: in the technology world, the best technology does not win.
Speaker 1: Technology improves all the time, but it's really the best
Speaker 1: one that right. Nobody is going around saying that the
Speaker 1: desktop remote operating systems we have are the best ones
Speaker 1: that are possible. They are just the ones that happened
Speaker 1: to be good enough at a certain point in time
Speaker 1: to get mass adoption. That was Ethereum. That was easy,
Speaker 1: And I'm going to get sucked into this debate about
Speaker 1: which one is better. I'm just going to say, the
Speaker 1: vast majority of the world's developers and money and users
Speaker 1: is in the Ethereum ecosystem. Therefore, we are going to
Speaker 1: build in the Ethereum because we are going to build where
Speaker 1: our customers are already.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And I know Etheroreum has
Speaker 2: had a first move or advantage, but I think one
Speaker 2: of the things I've heard and seeing is the security aspect.
Speaker 2: It's trusted. There are a lot of folks building on it.
Speaker 2: So that's a great point that you brought up. Now,
Speaker 2: you mentioned the wine industry, you mentioned pharmaceutical If I'm
Speaker 2: not mistaken, what are the industries are you seeing leveraging
Speaker 2: your services? Auto? Are there others call outs?
Speaker 1: So fundamentally, every business agreement on Earth boils down something face.
Speaker 1: I've got money, you got stuff, and we're changing my
Speaker 1: money for your stuff under the term of agreement, under
Speaker 1: terms of an agreement that describes every single industry on Earth. Now,
Speaker 1: in financial services, it's just a swap, right I want
Speaker 1: to buy some sock or a bond or a bigcoin token,
Speaker 1: it's just money for the market price. But in most
Speaker 1: other business environments there's actually a complicated agreement. If you
Speaker 1: think about a big car company and the relationship that
Speaker 1: they have with a supply, it's usually like some of
Speaker 1: these relationships last for decades. They have special terms and conditions,
Speaker 1: they have special rules. My goal is to basically build
Speaker 1: the tools that allow any company to transact with any
Speaker 1: other company. Because we can represent the money as diggal tokens, right,
Speaker 1: stable coins or crypto. We can represent the sauce as
Speaker 1: digital tokens that can be real world assets. They can
Speaker 1: be physical assets, cars, paintings, crypto acids, doesn't matter what
Speaker 1: it is. The money in the stuff are tokens and
Speaker 1: the agreement that covers their exchange in the smart contract.
Speaker 1: So what we're what we've been limited to in the
Speaker 1: recent past is things that people are willing to do
Speaker 1: without privacy because privacy like hugely increased your transaction costs.
Speaker 1: We're now entering into this era where we have industrialized
Speaker 1: privacy infrastructure that we can run on a public chain efficiently,
Speaker 1: and so we're going to start to get into what
Speaker 1: I hope are We're going to shift from marketing stuff
Speaker 1: like hey, look, I have six million bottles of wine
Speaker 1: on the blockchain and you can see where they went
Speaker 1: to operational stuff, which is I've got, you know, three
Speaker 1: million auto parts moving through my factory kind of structures.
Speaker 1: They're going out to distributors and dealers. We just finished
Speaker 1: a prototype for big Electronics Jumping, which I'm very excited about.
Speaker 1: It's a full supply chain model where everything is tokenized,
Speaker 1: running under privacy on a public blockchain. Wow, and that's
Speaker 1: for me, is kind of where I want to be.
Speaker 2: That's amazing and exciting. So what I'm curious about Paul
Speaker 2: is are these companies in the R and D trial
Speaker 2: and error phase or are they in the full production
Speaker 2: and they just have to scale it? Or I don't know.
Speaker 2: It may be different for each individual, but let's say
Speaker 2: on average, are they, you know, in the production phase
Speaker 2: and they just have to scale it.
Speaker 1: So it really depends on the industry. Financial services, which
Speaker 1: doesn't care as much about privacy because fungible tokens are
Speaker 1: provided much easier level of privacy. Financial services are way
Speaker 1: far down the road. They're production, they're scaling up, they're
Speaker 1: ramping up their real old asset process. They are. What
Speaker 1: they are now trying to do is they've got real
Speaker 1: old assets, they've got crypto assets, they've got regular tory infrastructure.
Speaker 1: They're now cutting deals with banks to figure out how
Speaker 1: to like distribute these to millions of users. The financial
Speaker 1: services market all over the world is in this massive
Speaker 1: scale out process manufacturing supply chain stuff that depends on privacy.
Speaker 1: It's in the pilot and proof of concept stage right
Speaker 1: as well as like public private public public chain smart
Speaker 1: contracts that run as zero knowledge circuits. Again kind of
Speaker 1: in that that that proof of concept stage or the
Speaker 1: pilot stage or early production customers. So it's is ramping along,
Speaker 1: but anything that requires privacy is probably five or six
Speaker 1: years behind the mainstream, like financial services stuff which doesn't
Speaker 1: require privacy.
Speaker 2: Interesting and that makes sense now speaking of the payments
Speaker 2: and finance aspect, PayPal EY and I think via coinbase
Speaker 2: settle the first corporate invoice payment. I believe what p
Speaker 2: y usc stable coin tell us a bit about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so so we've actually been we have been accepting
Speaker 1: at ey. We've been accepting payment in stable coins on
Speaker 1: crypto for quite a few years. But we've been doing
Speaker 1: it manually, right, so so you know, our client politicians like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm going to send the money, and we then we
Speaker 1: call up like our coin base institute on people and
Speaker 1: we're like, hey, did you get the money? Right? And
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a very manual process. It's cool
Speaker 1: you get some bragging rights from that, but it's not
Speaker 1: scalable and it doesn't generate return on investment. The big
Speaker 1: milestone that we achieved a couple of weeks ago was
Speaker 1: that we basically we turned what was a kind of individualized,
Speaker 1: customized hand you know, manual process into a scalable automated
Speaker 1: process by plugging it into SAP. So the big milestone
Speaker 1: wasn't just that we got a payment, it was that
Speaker 1: this payment was executed from inside of an enterprise ERP. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't know how many of your viewers know what
Speaker 1: ERP is, right, And to anybody who doesn't know what
Speaker 1: ERP is, I say, I'm so envious because ERP is
Speaker 1: like the monster of all enterprise systems. But it is
Speaker 1: ERP systems what are known as enterprise recoal Planning systems.
Speaker 1: They're this infrastructure that companies used to run everything, and
Speaker 1: they use it to automate everything. And so if you
Speaker 1: go into a store and you buy the last hoodie
Speaker 1: on the shelf, and you check out with that hoodie,
Speaker 1: the company's ERP system says, oh, I'm down to zero
Speaker 1: hoodies in the store. I'm going to place an order
Speaker 1: for punishment. All of this stuff gets automated, and when
Speaker 1: you automate stuff, you make savings. Now we all know that, say,
Speaker 1: paying somebody using PayPal, USD or USDC crypto rails its
Speaker 1: way cheaper than paying somebody with a traditional wire transfer.
Speaker 1: What was missing in the corporate world was the technology
Speaker 1: to automate that, and the big Moleston we had wasn't
Speaker 1: just getting paid with PYOSD and an invoice, it was
Speaker 1: that the SAP instance of PayPal automated just payment and
Speaker 1: what that means. And SAP it's hardnessed into their system.
Speaker 1: So now you can use the wallet inside of SAP,
Speaker 1: or you can use an institutional wallet as a company
Speaker 1: and start taking your literally millions of payments and orders
Speaker 1: that you make every year and moving them from more
Speaker 1: expensive networks too much cheaper crypto blockchain, stable coin infrastructure.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing, Paul. We've come in such a far
Speaker 2: away and to hear it what's happening from behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: it's amazing. And you know, as far as where you're
Speaker 2: at in the phase of rolling this out to other
Speaker 2: clients and worth is it trial arrow right now and
Speaker 2: then further iteration is needed and so forth.
Speaker 1: Actually, the really cool thing about the SAP case is
Speaker 1: that they have hardened this industrialized. It's now in the
Speaker 1: product right now. SAP is not a consumer product, right,
Speaker 1: It's not like, hey, open up your smartphone and flip
Speaker 1: a couple of switches. But there's a kind of thing
Speaker 1: where a CFO can tell somebody on their team like, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to go implement this, and you know, within
Speaker 1: a few weeks, you know, they might call ey. Hopefully
Speaker 1: they call ey, we'll come in. We're like, listen, here's
Speaker 1: your security process. Here's how you make sure you don't
Speaker 1: accidentally pay somebody. Here's how to configure the SAP tool. Right,
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that we love doing and
Speaker 1: are actually quite good at. And you know, in doing
Speaker 1: this with PayPal and SAP, we work together with them
Speaker 1: to figure out okay, because it's not just like hey,
Speaker 1: cut a check, but when large companies transact with each other,
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, what's our security policy? How do we
Speaker 1: make sure we don't actually get you know, don't accidentally
Speaker 1: pay somebody the wrong amount of money or send it
Speaker 1: to an irretrievable address. So those are the kinds of
Speaker 1: things that they go on, and we laid out all
Speaker 1: of that process and all the configuration rules so that
Speaker 1: other companies can repeat this relatively quickly.
Speaker 2: Now, py USD was used, Are you going to enable
Speaker 2: it to use the system to use USDC and other
Speaker 2: stable coins?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can use basically any kind of stable coin
Speaker 1: you can use a cryptocurrency And what's really cool also
Speaker 1: is SAP is enabled a wallet and with a wallet
Speaker 1: inside of the AIRP system. Again, come back to this,
Speaker 1: like I have money, you have stuff. Well, this deal
Speaker 1: with SAP was all about the money, moving the money
Speaker 1: back and forth kind of on crypto rails. But once
Speaker 1: you have a wallet, there's nothing stopping you from automatically
Speaker 1: minting stuff tokens. Like if you have a factory and
Speaker 1: every time you produce a car, you know, a cup,
Speaker 1: you can create a token and put that in that wallet.
Speaker 1: When you sell it to somebody else, you can transfer
Speaker 1: that token. So now we're into the business of managing inventory,
Speaker 1: tracking inventory and moving it all around and doing it
Speaker 1: in a fully automated way. And eventually what we want
Speaker 1: to get to this model where basically all of your contracts,
Speaker 1: your business transactions, your assets, your inventory, it can all
Speaker 1: be managed on a public blockchain.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's incredible. How does what you guys do And
Speaker 2: I was you're the experts align with the irs And
Speaker 2: I know there's still some you know, clarity that's needed
Speaker 2: on the IRIS front with taxes and crypto and so forth.
Speaker 2: Are there any hurdles there or you are you in
Speaker 2: contact with the folks of the IRS to figure all
Speaker 2: this out.
Speaker 1: So we have some really awesome tax people, and I'm
Speaker 1: not an awesome tax person. I'm not even a bad
Speaker 1: tax person. I have to ask somebody else for advice.
Speaker 1: So you does some degree you asked the wrong person.
Speaker 1: What I would say is when it comes to like
Speaker 1: staking and some of the like more cutting edge stuff
Speaker 1: there is you know, our tax people do work with
Speaker 1: the IRS. We try to figure out what the rules
Speaker 1: are ply and that is you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: the some of the newer stuff that the crypto does
Speaker 1: is is kind of working its way through that process.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to more traditional B to B
Speaker 1: procurement applications, in those cases, you don't actually need new
Speaker 1: tax rules. You don't need anything else. Like all we're
Speaker 1: doing on shape is replicating a process that already exists
Speaker 1: in the real world. And the same tax rules that
Speaker 1: apply if I pay you with a wire transfer also
Speaker 1: apply if I pay you with like USDC. So you know,
Speaker 1: that kind of keeps it relatively simple because systems like
Speaker 1: SAP and large companies have already built all of their tax.
Speaker 2: Rules in Okay, that makes sense, so there's no like
Speaker 2: you said, nothing new here because stable coins you're just
Speaker 2: in and out and there should be no capital gains
Speaker 2: or whatever it is obviously unless they use.
Speaker 1: Right I wouldn't don't quote me on that for the
Speaker 1: absolute certainty, because you'd have to talk to a tax person.
Speaker 1: But generally speaking, you know, large companies are not going
Speaker 1: to embrace this if it's going to make their tax
Speaker 1: liabilities more complicated.
Speaker 2: Now, are you working with any companies that are starting
Speaker 2: to hold bitcoin in their balance sheet? Because that seems
Speaker 2: to be a growing trend and there was the fast
Speaker 2: be update to rules and accounting. Are you are you
Speaker 2: seeing you know, growing adoption in that front as well.
Speaker 1: So we serve a ton of like hedge funds and
Speaker 1: investment funds that absolutely hold all kinds of crypto assets
Speaker 1: on their balance sheet. That's pretty normal. We also serve
Speaker 1: a lot of banks that act as custodians or serve
Speaker 1: as kind of third party holders for other people's assets,
Speaker 1: and that that again is pretty normal. What we're really
Speaker 1: not seeing is any kind of traditional business you know,
Speaker 1: I think everybody thinks about, you know, micro strategies kind
Speaker 1: of this example of a company that's that's they've bought
Speaker 1: a ton of bitcoin. That's actually a very atypical strategy.
Speaker 1: For the most part, large companies think about bitcoin or
Speaker 1: xrpor eth the same way they think about any kind
Speaker 1: of foreign currency, which is they really want to minimize
Speaker 1: their risk. They are you know, if you ask a
Speaker 1: car maker, hey, what do you do, they say, we
Speaker 1: make cars, right, we don't speculate in currency like Their
Speaker 1: main goal isn't to make a profit on a crypto
Speaker 1: currency like holding position. Their main goal in almost all
Speaker 1: cases is actually to minimize risk. And this is actually
Speaker 1: one of the main reasons why in the large enterprise
Speaker 1: space what people mostly want to do is they want
Speaker 1: to transact in stable coins in national currencies, because if
Speaker 1: you're in an American company, your revenues are in dollars,
Speaker 1: your employee salaries are in dollars, your taxes are in dollars,
Speaker 1: your shareholder dividends are in dollars, So you just want
Speaker 1: to stay in dollars because then you have for an
Speaker 1: exchange risk. And it's the same if you're a British
Speaker 1: company or a New based company or a Japanese company.
Speaker 1: That's why we're going to see such immense adoption by
Speaker 1: stable coins in the enterprise sector because they minimize risk
Speaker 1: for business users.
Speaker 2: And to your point of stable coin adoption, I mean,
Speaker 2: we're just seeing the stable coin wars heating up as
Speaker 2: rumors of new companies coming in with stable coins. Do
Speaker 2: you think some of these enterprises may create their own
Speaker 2: stable coin which they use internally, Like I think of
Speaker 2: JP Morgan's jpm coin. It's very intrabank, if that's the word,
Speaker 2: and it's not outside to the public. What do you
Speaker 2: think about that?
Speaker 1: I think that's very likely. So, so companies do a
Speaker 1: ton of transactions with themselves internally, right Like if I
Speaker 1: do a project, I have a client, I have clients
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. When I do a project in
Speaker 1: the Relice, what actually happens is a client in the
Speaker 1: Middle East goes like e Y and Saudi Arabia or
Speaker 1: the United Emirates, they sign a local contract there and
Speaker 1: then e Y in that country say, oh, we want
Speaker 1: some of Paul's time. They actually signed at what's called
Speaker 1: an intercompany agreement with e Y in the United States.
Speaker 1: So and that is common. That is that happens millions
Speaker 1: of times a year in big companies. And we estimated
Speaker 1: that we spend you know, many many millions of dollars,
Speaker 1: billing ourselves, paying ourselves, sending that money around, and so
Speaker 1: I very much expect to see internal stable coin transactions,
Speaker 1: internal sort of company coin transactions. Uh. And I also
Speaker 1: think some very large enterprises why I know, some very
Speaker 1: large enterprises are actively thinking about launching layer two networks
Speaker 1: stable coins, right. They see these as strategic assets in
Speaker 1: a rapidly growing marketplace and ecosystem.
Speaker 2: Wow, and how are you and those enterprises navigating the
Speaker 2: uncertainty in the market. I know, using stable coins, there's
Speaker 2: not necessarily any red flags with the SEC unless you're
Speaker 2: offering yield and so forth. But there is this uncertainty
Speaker 2: because the SEC seems to be going after everything. We
Speaker 2: don't know what the rules of the road are. Congress
Speaker 2: is trying to get some bills together get through the Senate.
Speaker 2: Are there any challenges there?
Speaker 1: There are challenges, but actually there are less than many
Speaker 1: people realize. Like, one of the things that's sort of
Speaker 1: interesting is you'll hear people say, oh, it's not allowed
Speaker 1: or I heard you can't do this, but that's not
Speaker 1: actually really true. The truth is that if you are
Speaker 1: thoughtful and work to follow the law, you can absolutely
Speaker 1: do Look at PayPal. Right, no one's coming after PayPal,
Speaker 1: and no one's going after Fidelity. No one's going after
Speaker 1: black Rock or Goldman Sachs or Circle right. You know,
Speaker 1: the companies that invest a lot of money in regulatory
Speaker 1: compliance make very good efforts to follow the rules have
Speaker 1: generally not had bad outcomes. Doesn't mean it's perfect, but
Speaker 1: they've generally not had bad outcomes. Now, I would not
Speaker 1: say the regulatory environment in the US is as clear
Speaker 1: cut and as straightforward as say Micah. In Europe is
Speaker 1: really excellent because it lays out in a very prescriptive
Speaker 1: manner if you want to offer any kind of crypto
Speaker 1: asset or what they call it asset back to token, like
Speaker 1: a stable coin or a gold coin or something like that,
Speaker 1: it explicitly and very clearly lays out the rules in
Speaker 1: a way that's relatively straightforward to follow. So I think
Speaker 1: right now the European Union, particularly in terms of large
Speaker 1: financial markets, sets the bendmark in terms of like, I
Speaker 1: can clearly follow the rules, but you know people, you know,
Speaker 1: anybody who comes to me and says, oh, I can't
Speaker 1: do this in the USA, I'm like, no, that is
Speaker 1: absolutely not true. There are a ton of examples. You
Speaker 1: absolutely can't do it in the USA. You just need
Speaker 1: to be maybe a bit more careful, right, and maybe
Speaker 1: a slightly a bit more risk averse. But I would
Speaker 1: not There's not as much uncertainty as people think there is, right,
Speaker 1: It's just in some cases a bit more complexity.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. Now you're one of the top
Speaker 2: four accounting firms in the world. Are you paying attention
Speaker 2: to what your competitors are doing? How what you know?
Speaker 2: How are you are you trying to what's your strategy
Speaker 2: to stay ahead of the curve, you know, against the others?
Speaker 1: I mean, for sure, like somebody comes in and says, hey,
Speaker 1: XYZ is doing X. You know, I would never say,
Speaker 1: don't tell me what they're doing. But for the most part,
Speaker 1: like you know, and we are, we're really unique in this.
Speaker 1: You go back, go back nine ten years ago, look
Speaker 1: at some of our documents, presentations. Honestly, I'm a broken record.
Speaker 1: I'm super boring. I've been saying the same thing for
Speaker 1: decades public blockchains, stable coins, privacy, technology, regulatory compliance. But
Speaker 1: literally the fourth thing that I've been saying for a
Speaker 1: day and the you know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: it's very interesting. I would say most of our peers
Speaker 1: have kind of exited the exited any effort to really
Speaker 1: build a strategic place here or you know, build their
Speaker 1: own applications. So but our business is doing really well.
Speaker 1: You know, we had a rough year during the crypto winter.
Speaker 1: Last year. We almost returned to the same level we
Speaker 1: were at before the crypto winter, just below that. Like,
Speaker 1: business is good. I'm expecting us to surpass that this
Speaker 1: year and have our best ever kind of blockchain and
Speaker 1: crypto year. I think a consistency and listening to the
Speaker 1: clients and what they want is much more valuable than
Speaker 1: kind of worrying about your competition. I will say, however,
Speaker 1: that listening to the clients does not mean always giving
Speaker 1: them what they want. And this is where I am
Speaker 1: stubborn and difficult to deal with, and people say mean
Speaker 1: things about me sometimes inside of the firm, because you know,
Speaker 1: many times the truth is clients don't really know what
Speaker 1: they want. They think they want a private blockchain, but
Speaker 1: they don't. And you know, a lot of times we
Speaker 1: basically walked away from deals because the client's like, I
Speaker 1: want you to do this on xyz chain. It's not
Speaker 1: ethereum or I want to do it on a permission chain,
Speaker 1: and we'd be like, honestly, it's not going to work.
Speaker 1: It's not going to have a happy ending, and it's
Speaker 1: it's super frustrating when you see a competitor pick up
Speaker 1: that revenue and make a lot of money. And it's
Speaker 1: also kind of satisfying when you see the project kind
Speaker 1: of belly flop, or when the client comes back and says,
Speaker 1: you know, I think you are right. I first and foremost,
Speaker 1: I believe it's important to kind of stick to it,
Speaker 1: to what you know is right. And sometimes that does
Speaker 1: mean walking away from the business if somebody wants to
Speaker 1: do something that's just not going to work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely makes sense. Now have you seen a growing
Speaker 2: demand from different enterprises and industries since the likes of
Speaker 2: black Rock have entered the space with ETF's tokenization, where
Speaker 2: you know, they kind of raised the credibility of the
Speaker 2: industry and not to mention Fidelity Franklin, Templeton and so forth.
Speaker 2: Have you seen the surgeon demand.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of amazing. One of the things
Speaker 1: that that is, uh, you know, uh, the Crypto winter
Speaker 1: was we we work on it like a like a
Speaker 1: ju lives to July fiscal year. But the crypto winter
Speaker 1: was kind of going full swing. It's pretty difficult. And
Speaker 1: two things happened that were really important. First of all,
Speaker 1: the MICA legislation came to effect inside the European Union,
Speaker 1: and secondly, the ETFs were approved. And honestly, just business
Speaker 1: one like this, you know, it was it was okay,
Speaker 1: but for but it just it just took off like
Speaker 1: a rocket and we went from like not being busy
Speaker 1: enough to actually being very busy, like basically sold out
Speaker 1: on the consulting side, like significant backbloger projects. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's uh. Business has improved a lot. And what's
Speaker 1: what's interesting is even though if you're an industrial company
Speaker 1: and you want to do like supply chain traceability, you
Speaker 1: don't need any SEC approval, you're not doing anything financial.
Speaker 1: But the the ETF offerings, the seal of approval that
Speaker 1: kind of comes from like Blacklock, black Brock and others
Speaker 1: getting into the specifically endorsing public etherium as their path forward.
Speaker 1: That had an impact on industrial customers where like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I guess it's gonna be all right, and it was
Speaker 1: very positive.
Speaker 2: Mm oh, I can imagine. I mean just on the
Speaker 2: retail side, which I have a view of, definitely changed things,
Speaker 2: and I can imagine the enterprise side. This is related
Speaker 2: to something I asked you earlier about Timeline. You know, Paul,
Speaker 2: do you see us in five years the majority enterprises
Speaker 2: will be using blockchain and that's a supply chain management.
Speaker 2: All these things will be running a blockchain. I can
Speaker 2: go on Amazon and click on a dialogue box and
Speaker 2: see where this product came from, what it's made of,
Speaker 2: and it's verified on the blockchain.
Speaker 1: In five years for some companies, you know, basically, the
Speaker 1: way they think about this is that large enterprises and
Speaker 1: also major investment changes take decades to kind of unfold.
Speaker 1: So if you look at e commerce, e commerce has
Speaker 1: been growing at about twenty to twenty five percent a
Speaker 1: year for the last twenty years, right, and still the
Speaker 1: majority of our commerce is actually done in stores. So
Speaker 1: that kind of mainstream of option does not mean like
Speaker 1: everybody's doing it overnight. That means is that you when
Speaker 1: you enter a mainstream adoption period in almost any kind
Speaker 1: of product, would you end up with. This is like,
Speaker 1: if it's a consumer product, it takes about ten years.
Speaker 1: If it's a business of business thing, it tends to
Speaker 1: take twenty or more years. Some things can take up
Speaker 1: to thirty years. Like a good example is in the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, if you had a retirement plan, and if
Speaker 1: you lived in the US and you had a retirement plan,
Speaker 1: ninety seven percent of your assets were in bonds. Ninety
Speaker 1: seven percent. By the nineteen eighties, less than fifty percent
Speaker 1: were in bonds and more than fifty percent were in stocks.
Speaker 1: It took thirty years for people's investment behavior to change.
Speaker 1: So I would say conservatively, thirty years from now, almost
Speaker 1: every company will be using blockchain for something, probably for
Speaker 1: large chunks of their business, and almost every person will
Speaker 1: have some form of digital asset crypto, you know, a
Speaker 1: blockchain based investment vehicle as part of their savings and
Speaker 1: retirement plan. Right, And one of my frustrations is people
Speaker 1: think too short about the timeline. Here. The timeline for
Speaker 1: real transformation, for really changing how the world works isn't
Speaker 1: five years or even ten years. It's twenty to thirty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense, and they'll be the first
Speaker 2: movers and then we benu you the rest will follow.
Speaker 2: But that definitely definitely takes time.
Speaker 1: Right, And I think the big danger so a lot
Speaker 1: of people will hear twenty or thirty years and say, oh,
Speaker 1: it's early days yet. No, no, no, go look go look
Speaker 1: at e commerce. Go look at the web. The leaders
Speaker 1: were found within a decade of the start of the business,
Speaker 1: and go look at e commerce. Go look at like
Speaker 1: cloud computing. The leaders in that business not only did
Speaker 1: they have their lead within the first decade, they held
Speaker 1: onto it. They're almost impossible to dislodge, right. And so
Speaker 1: if you're a business leader thinking yourself, I have time,
Speaker 1: you don't. You do not have time. You need to
Speaker 1: be in this game and winning it now, otherwise you're
Speaker 1: going to be playing catch up for twenty years.
Speaker 2: Well, I know we're running up in time. So I
Speaker 2: want to get a couple of questions here before I
Speaker 2: let you go. What's on your roadmap for the remainder
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty four, maybe early twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: Five, So big roadmap, kind of key things for twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four and twenty twenty five. We've a major release
Speaker 1: of our supply chain security infrastructure that we are going
Speaker 1: to deploy, So I can't tell you what it is,
Speaker 1: but it's going to be awesome. I'm actually pretty excited
Speaker 1: about It's cool and we're also you know, we announced
Speaker 1: Nightfall three. We announced Nightfall earlier this year, which is
Speaker 1: our fourth generation privacy technology. We showed the prototype in April.
Speaker 1: We will be we're in now what I would call
Speaker 1: a private alpha in production kind of testing it out.
Speaker 1: We will have a we'll go into like a private
Speaker 1: beta with a couple of partners in January February, and
Speaker 1: I hope we will have a public beta announcement to
Speaker 1: make by March or April of next year.
Speaker 2: Well, I will have to have you on to talk
Speaker 2: about that. That that sounds really exciting. I have some
Speaker 2: wrap up questions there for you. First, if you could
Speaker 2: create your own metaverse, would the theme be.
Speaker 1: Wow? That was a good question. I am. I'm personally
Speaker 1: in a bit of a science fiction that I love
Speaker 1: the story of Alistair Reynolds. I kind of grew up
Speaker 1: on a lot of the like Isaac Asimov stuff. I think, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Alistair kind of an an Alistair Reynolds kind
Speaker 1: of revelations based universe would be a fun place to live.
Speaker 2: M rapid fire questions. Favorite food?
Speaker 1: Uh, I don't have one anymore because I've I've learned
Speaker 1: to like so many different foods, but I would say,
Speaker 1: like my comfort food is often like it's some kind
Speaker 1: of breakfast food like pancakes, Yeah, chip pancakes.
Speaker 2: Favorite musician or bad.
Speaker 1: Uh depeche Mode, I'm an athiest boy.
Speaker 2: Nice favorite movie.
Speaker 1: Brisbille but Terry Gillian.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've heard of that, but I'll have
Speaker 2: to check that one out. Favorite book.
Speaker 1: Think, I think Foundation by Isaac Asimov. It doesn't reread well,
Speaker 1: like people say, oh, you know, science fiction doesn't age well,
Speaker 1: but and that's really true, but it had a huge
Speaker 1: impact on me as a kid. Star I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: you know, we're not just on planet earths. We're part
Speaker 1: of this like enormous galaxy, and there's there's so much
Speaker 1: out there that we we we should I hope be
Speaker 1: able to explore.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. And I think I know the answer to this.
Speaker 2: But what do you do for fun outside of working
Speaker 2: at uy.
Speaker 1: Well, I've got a husband, two kids, and a dog.
Speaker 1: But I do. I do triathons. I do about one
Speaker 1: iron Man a year, so I kind of like a
Speaker 1: little bit of the sports stuff.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Paul, Absolute pleasure chatting with you. I'm excited for
Speaker 2: the future updates are on ey and I'd love to
Speaker 2: have you back on as those things roll out. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Tony. I have a terrific day.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.