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<v Speaker 1>I want to see you ask the floor, make it clap, clap,

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<v Speaker 1>bankers on the floor. Banker people bank together, such a

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<v Speaker 1>medal class.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm singing to the people on here. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>singing to you. I want you guys to hear the

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful music. I want the people on Twitter space to

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<v Speaker 2>hear me singing. I don't need you in the chat

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<v Speaker 2>telling me to unmute. I'm fully cognizant and capable of

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<v Speaker 2>running this stream. Baby. Now we got some a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of drama. I want to dress first. Shout out

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<v Speaker 2>to Snack and Lewis and the chat. Them old school

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<v Speaker 2>boys that been around for the long haul. We appreciate them.

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<v Speaker 2>And speaking of Lewis, Lewis reminded me some years back

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<v Speaker 2>of a great Oxford Union debate. And I'm bringing that

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<v Speaker 2>up because we still have a lot of uneducated people

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<v Speaker 2>who think that there's something inherently bad about debate. They

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<v Speaker 2>think it doesn't involve rhetoric jobs, they don't think that

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<v Speaker 2>it's even part of a classical pedagogy. So we live

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<v Speaker 2>in this weird time of highly uneducated people, and even

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<v Speaker 2>the edge of an influencer class still is under some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of delusion that debating is a bad thing. Part

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<v Speaker 2>of it has to do with feminization of the church.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybody being so soy, everybody is so reactionary. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>think through challenges and positions, especially via Twitter. Everyone just reacts.

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<v Speaker 2>But if you go and watch this debate about the

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<v Speaker 2>existence of God, you'll note that Hitchens does a great

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<v Speaker 2>job here of laying out a case presenting the remnants

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<v Speaker 2>of classical debate and pedagogy. Now, sometimes we do formal

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<v Speaker 2>debates and sometimes we do informal debates. When it's a

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<v Speaker 2>high profile person, I give them a formal debate. We've

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<v Speaker 2>done many of those. So the people that act like

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<v Speaker 2>I don't do formal debates are to scream over everybody

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<v Speaker 2>else is not true, and then we know that that's

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<v Speaker 2>not true. It's just a bunch of maloney, malarkey and

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<v Speaker 2>huey yesterday the debate two days ago. That was a

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<v Speaker 2>tongue in cheek debate. I thought a lot of you

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<v Speaker 2>would be hip enough to pick up on the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that she's a counterculture art galal, she was on Perfect

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<v Speaker 2>Guy Life, she's in TV shows. Of course, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a serious debate with her and people, So what this

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<v Speaker 2>is the playo gift for you alone and people losing

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<v Speaker 2>their minds? Why would you have this girl wha she's

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<v Speaker 2>a hooker? Wh people losing their minds because of an

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<v Speaker 2>attractive girl is on the stream a bunch of dang

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<v Speaker 2>dorks that had never had a girlfriend or talk to

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<v Speaker 2>a girl. You were only nice to her because she's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of chicky. Now wait a minute, so that

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<v Speaker 2>I'm nice to somebody in a tongue in cheek debate,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm still bad. You're bad because you even did it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I can't win no matter what I do. I

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<v Speaker 2>can't wait if I'm nice to somebody in a fake

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<v Speaker 2>debate as a fake debate, man, it was supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be funny and fun and by the way, almost one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand people have watched it. Why did you even

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<v Speaker 2>do it? Because of one hundred thousand dorks that have

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<v Speaker 2>never seen this channel, Well watch it and they did.

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<v Speaker 2>That's why? Duh? Why does Andrew debate dumb dumb girls

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<v Speaker 2>on whatever? Cause hundreds of thousand of people watch it?

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think?

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<v Speaker 3>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>How many new dorks came and watched stuff that have

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<v Speaker 2>never been over here? A lot she has a big audience,

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<v Speaker 2>So like what you don't even know how the internet

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<v Speaker 2>works anyway, Listen to Hitchins.

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<v Speaker 1>In facts.

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<v Speaker 4>I loathe taking part in it almost more than any

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<v Speaker 4>other argument.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not playing the whole.

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<v Speaker 4>For why Because I have to come up here and

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<v Speaker 4>defend the religion of love, brotherhood, peace, justice and turning

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<v Speaker 4>the other cheek rather than kicking the other guy in

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<v Speaker 4>the crutch. And I have to listen. I have to

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<v Speaker 4>listen while I'm doing it to these gentlemen who remind

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<v Speaker 4>me constantly of the most irritating, infuriating, revolting person I

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<v Speaker 4>ever knew, namely my adolescent self.

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<v Speaker 2>See, he's doing jobs, he's doing nags, he's making fun

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<v Speaker 2>of himself, he's making fun of everything, especially the opponents

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<v Speaker 2>whom he's saying at Oxford act like thirteen year old kids.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a jab, dummies, that's this is like the ultimate

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<v Speaker 2>informal debate, Oxford Union Debate, the classic medieval style. You're

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<v Speaker 2>not supposed to ever say anything, means the woman who

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<v Speaker 2>feelings Jesus is a feeye wee feey good.

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<v Speaker 5>I feewy me few wey.

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<v Speaker 2>No wonder people turn to Islam. You are the reason

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<v Speaker 2>people go to Islam. Yeah, Islam's dumb, but Muslims don't

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<v Speaker 2>go around good.

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<v Speaker 5>You feel.

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<v Speaker 2>Mohammed, I don't waken me.

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<v Speaker 5>You feel feel good now.

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<v Speaker 2>I wish I wish moment would give me a hooky work. No,

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<v Speaker 2>them crazy, It will just come attack you with a

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<v Speaker 2>dang great gang because they're crazy. Well, guess what the

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<v Speaker 2>solution that is not to be a complete goof, a

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<v Speaker 2>complete goober, a complete feels man. It's it's just it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's just crazy the way it is. You know

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<v Speaker 2>what I'm saying. It's just wild. I can't even explain it. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know what to tell y'all, just all

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<v Speaker 2>the look. So all I did is ask Calvin Robinson

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<v Speaker 2>months ago, would you like to have He talked about

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<v Speaker 2>the Philioqua, and I said, would you like to have

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<v Speaker 2>a discussion on this? This is months ago?

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<v Speaker 6>How dare you?

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<v Speaker 2>And no, you're and your polemics and you're baiting and

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<v Speaker 2>your blah blah, this litany, this giant wall of Textboh,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a bad person for just simply saying would you

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<v Speaker 2>like to do a formal debate? And he'll debate all

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<v Speaker 2>day about debating so I let it go. Didn't say

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<v Speaker 2>anything else. Today he's interacting, debating with other Orthodox priests now.

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<v Speaker 2>So in the DMS, I said, we, hey, would you

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<v Speaker 2>like to circle back, circle back and have a discussion

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<v Speaker 2>on philioquay. I don't want to participate in your baiting

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<v Speaker 2>and you're so bad and you're this and that. I'll

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<v Speaker 2>show you the DMS if you don't believe it. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's what happened. I mean, do you think I would

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<v Speaker 2>be able to do what I do if I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have basic skills and capabilities of civility for professionalism in

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<v Speaker 2>messaging people and ask them to do a debate. How

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<v Speaker 2>would we even have the audience that we have if

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<v Speaker 2>I cannot function that way? Oh you're still bad though,

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<v Speaker 2>you're still mean?

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<v Speaker 5>How for what?

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<v Speaker 2>I just simply asked a guy, would you like to

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<v Speaker 2>have a discussion on this? And I get a wall

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<v Speaker 2>of text about how I'm a piece of crap. Now

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<v Speaker 2>I'm used to this. I don't really care. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>so tiresome. It's so stupid because everyone knows this is

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<v Speaker 2>at his hallowed halls of Anglican University, dumb that this

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<v Speaker 2>is just how a debate goes and by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>you are expected in academia to be able to defend

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<v Speaker 2>your positions. Did you know that if you have to

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<v Speaker 2>defend your thesis, you go before a board of professors

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<v Speaker 2>who quiz you, and you argue your thesis. Now, I

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<v Speaker 2>know a lot of you don't know that. You didn't

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<v Speaker 2>go to grad school, but you do this. It's normal.

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<v Speaker 2>It's part of educated academia, even if the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>the soy populace doesn't know that or things this is mean.

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<v Speaker 2>I watched the dumbest debate I've ever seen in my

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<v Speaker 2>life last night, and I'm mad at myself because I

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<v Speaker 2>watched the whole thing. I watched two of the stupidest

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<v Speaker 2>people I've ever seen. Worse than t don't worse than

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<v Speaker 2>anybody else you've ever seen a debate. I didn't block

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<v Speaker 2>you for nothing, man. People that talk smack and won't debate,

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<v Speaker 2>they get blocked people like we are you flustered? You

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<v Speaker 2>block people? Yeah? When a person won't come and have

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<v Speaker 2>a discussion and defend a position, I blocked them absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>because I don't care. I'm not You're You're canceled out

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<v Speaker 2>of my respect for you, because it means that you

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<v Speaker 2>can't defend the position. Educated people are supposed to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to engage in critical thinking, analysis, logic, rhetoric. They're

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<v Speaker 2>able to handle pushback, they're able to handle discussion. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>the debate it was absolutely worse. I'm not kidding the

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<v Speaker 2>what's her name? Not so erudite and that boomer veteran

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<v Speaker 2>debating Jake Riddle, Snake and Jim Bob on feminism was

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<v Speaker 2>the worst debate I've ever heard in my life. I've

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<v Speaker 2>never heard anyone be so dumb, and I've never heard

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<v Speaker 2>the stupidest arguments beyond that in my life. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it was just it was next level, the dumbest debate ever.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is what people think is debating. They think

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<v Speaker 2>it's arguing, they think it's yappin', they think it's just

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Flair, who knows. But I don't feel

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<v Speaker 2>bad for just simply asking people to come have a discussion.

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<v Speaker 2>And a lot of people treat they think this is

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<v Speaker 2>an insult. They think, oh, I'm beyond that, how dare you?

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know anything about Calvin Robinson other than that, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>one time he was out a thing and there was

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<v Speaker 2>Father Josiah there, and then he's at this other thing

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<v Speaker 2>and Pearson's there. Okay, well that's great, but I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's why is it even a big deal? All you

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<v Speaker 2>gotta do is say no, I'm not interested. Okay, fair enough.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't need a litany of insult to the person

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<v Speaker 2>who's just simply asking you to have a formal debate.

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<v Speaker 2>It's weird, it's it's a weird, sanctimonious I'm so much

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<v Speaker 2>better than you that how dare you? How dare you right?

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<v Speaker 2>Like Bill Clinton level stuff? Again, no one at this

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<v Speaker 2>level is hurt or scared or crying and freaking out

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<v Speaker 2>about oh my feelings? Oh my god? How dare you

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<v Speaker 2>speak to me? I have four hundred thousand followers? How

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<v Speaker 2>dare you even message me? Honestly?

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<v Speaker 7>Honestly?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, haven't we all had it all?

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<v Speaker 4>The four horus mithress. They are all the same. No, no,

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<v Speaker 4>not all the same. They all disagree with you. They

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<v Speaker 4>must be wrong. They can't all be right. This is

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<v Speaker 4>the staff of sixth form debate. That has been nothing

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<v Speaker 4>serious said against you.

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<v Speaker 2>See that more jobs, my opponents are sixth graders whatever

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<v Speaker 2>sixth form is. I'm assuming in weird hogwarts Land, that

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<v Speaker 2>that's sixth grade. I don't know, but England is basically

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<v Speaker 2>hogwarts if you don't know, so I'm assuming sixth form

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<v Speaker 2>is some low level grade of education, right under a

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<v Speaker 2>motorized Rollingham class or whatever. Again, the old debate is

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<v Speaker 2>just his opening statement, and it's not all rhetoric, but

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<v Speaker 2>there's some rhetoric, okay, And we've got people out here

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<v Speaker 2>that literally think that any rhetoric is anti Christian.

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<v Speaker 8>How dare you say such a thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, now I'm not gonna apologize for just simply

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<v Speaker 2>asking people if they like to have a formal debate.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't feel bad about that, and I shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>feel bad. This is stupid, man. It's people are just

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<v Speaker 2>freaking cry bully babies. You remember last time we had

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<v Speaker 2>this event, he tried to mog me and he lost.

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<v Speaker 2>My comments had like ten times more than his. This

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<v Speaker 2>is He's like, well, I mogged you, and then I

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<v Speaker 2>had like ten times more than him. So it's like

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<v Speaker 2>he even got mogged in his petty attempting at mogging me,

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<v Speaker 2>which was funny. But I don't like you'll notice in

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<v Speaker 2>the case of Dasha, Dasha had some decent questions She

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't the best debater, but she was less afraid than

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<v Speaker 2>any of these gigantic pop apologists vaginas, and that's what

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<v Speaker 2>they are, the world of the pap apologists are literally

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<v Speaker 2>the biggest vaginas out there. And I don't care. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't care if they think that. I'm mean, do you

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<v Speaker 2>think has anything made me change my mo?

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<v Speaker 5>No?

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean the dms usually are almost always pretty civil.

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<v Speaker 2>He let loose a walle text, baham a bad person.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all a ruse, that's your stick. It's a game.

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<v Speaker 2>And oh it's all bait. And I mean, is it bait?

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<v Speaker 2>When I was out there debating the top Muslims with

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<v Speaker 2>Sam Schimun getting three to five million views, that's all

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<v Speaker 2>just a bait. It's just I don't know. We'll open

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<v Speaker 2>it up because that's all I have to say on

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<v Speaker 2>that matter. You can go watch the rest of Christopher

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<v Speaker 2>Hitchens just giving me a kind of basic procedures and

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<v Speaker 2>examples of what normal debate is. Now, if all you

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<v Speaker 2>do is an insult, then that's not a real debate, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't be all rhetoric. But the thing is about debate.

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<v Speaker 2>The assumption is that the audience is intelligent enough to

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<v Speaker 2>figure out if you're all hot air and rhetoric and

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<v Speaker 2>no substance. Maybe it's not that way anymore. Maybe everybody's

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<v Speaker 2>too stupid now. I don't know, but our buddy here, Amateure,

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to come discuss. What's up? Man gotta I'm mute, dog?

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<v Speaker 5>Oh can you hear me?

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<v Speaker 2>What's hey?

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<v Speaker 5>Thanks for having me on. Yeah. First, just want to

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<v Speaker 5>say I.

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<v Speaker 9>Can't believe how hard Dush destroyed you last night with

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<v Speaker 9>the Slavic mind argument.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it was uh, it was fun. But the

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<v Speaker 2>weirdest part was everyone's reaction.

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<v Speaker 5>To it, Like, yeah, they were all tweaking.

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<v Speaker 9>I mean, they must have missed the part where she

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<v Speaker 9>was like smoking indoors and also beautiful, so therefore she wins.

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<v Speaker 9>But uh, yeah, I agree with you about the importance

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<v Speaker 9>to debate and everything Like debate brought me out of

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<v Speaker 9>the Jehovah's Witnesses to atheism finally to Christianity, and I

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<v Speaker 9>think that now that's bringing a lot of people to

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<v Speaker 9>Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

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<v Speaker 5>It seems like everybody's freaking out, and.

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<v Speaker 9>I think it's really telling about the spiritual relativism about

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<v Speaker 9>our times. But my main question or debate wanted to

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<v Speaker 9>be about the Orthodox history of England, okay, and I

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<v Speaker 9>mean my first assertion about it would be, I think

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<v Speaker 9>the burden of proof flies with you to.

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<v Speaker 5>Prove that England was Orthodox at some point.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm not an English historian, but I think if

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<v Speaker 2>you look to you know the way that the Church

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<v Speaker 2>is described in you know, Venerable bead Or. You know

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<v Speaker 2>when even when Augustine comes to England, not Augustine and

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<v Speaker 2>Pitpo the other Augustine the Canterbury, you don't find the

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<v Speaker 2>Vatican one attitude and mindset. And just like with the

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<v Speaker 2>Church in France, you know, the tradition there is to

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<v Speaker 2>not have the philioque to recite the Creed the traditional

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<v Speaker 2>way that the Orthodox Church does. And so no, I

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<v Speaker 2>would actually argue that the default position prior to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>ten sixty six would be that it's the Orthodox.

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<v Speaker 9>So the Orthodox Church broke with the Catholic Church in

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<v Speaker 9>ten sixty six, Great Skins every.

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<v Speaker 2>Ten fifty four, ten sixty six is the Norman invasion,

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<v Speaker 2>that's right, that's.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, my bad, So no communion between the two.

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<v Speaker 9>However, the Church of England only broke away and broke

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<v Speaker 9>communion with the Roman Church in the fifteen hundreds.

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<v Speaker 2>You miss, You miss what I argued though. My argument

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<v Speaker 2>was that the faith of England prior to ten fifty four,

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<v Speaker 2>prior to ten sixty six is the identical synodal faith

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<v Speaker 2>that does not confess Philly oakuay and does not confess

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<v Speaker 2>papal teachings until later down the road when that's enforced

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<v Speaker 2>upon England. That's what I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 9>Okay, So your argument is that the Norman invasion is

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<v Speaker 9>the primary force.

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<v Speaker 2>That's one period, right, Well, that's one period when you

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<v Speaker 2>when you have phases moving in that direction. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>believe that this like night and day. It's not like

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<v Speaker 2>there was one day where everybody in England suddenly woke up,

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<v Speaker 2>Oh we're all in excuse them now, because if you

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<v Speaker 2>look at the way the promulgation of things like lions

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<v Speaker 2>and Florence happened, is that it takes time for those

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<v Speaker 2>things to you know, promulgate throughout a lot of lands,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's you know, uniate Ish areas, Romania, Transylvania, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of those places were kind of ambiguous for many centuries,

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<v Speaker 2>even like in the time of a Lad the Impaler.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of unclear whether Vlad was Orthodox or Uniate.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's no it's not a black and white thing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's rather that it takes time for it to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of be received everywhere. So I couldn't tell you an

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<v Speaker 2>exact date as to when the entire you know, Church

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<v Speaker 2>of England went from Orthodox England to Papal England, but

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<v Speaker 2>it would it would be during these centuries of tenth, eleventh, twelve.

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<v Speaker 2>I do recall that the invested your controversy, especially with

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Thomas Beckett. You know, that played a big

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<v Speaker 2>role in the papacy taking over churches in places like

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<v Speaker 2>France and England because a lot of the bishops were

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<v Speaker 2>still being installed and appointed by the kings, and so

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<v Speaker 2>there was this it's called the investiture controversy, right, So

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<v Speaker 2>that's the period I would say when the papacy makes

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<v Speaker 2>its move to solidify control. And another way to see

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<v Speaker 2>this is that are you aware that it's pretty universally

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<v Speaker 2>known that before the Gregorian Reforms and up into the

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<v Speaker 2>twelve thirteen hundreds, the Bishop of Rome doesn't confirm every

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<v Speaker 2>bishop in the world. It's a local affair. That's something

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<v Speaker 2>that changes after the Gregorian reforms. So that also shows

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<v Speaker 2>you that the structure of the ecclesiology of the church

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<v Speaker 2>was not papal.

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<v Speaker 9>Okay, I mean, I think my respect on to that

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<v Speaker 9>in my kind of argument hinges on the fact that

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<v Speaker 9>they were in communion with Rome before and after.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but so was the Orthodox Church. That how does

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<v Speaker 2>that prove anything?

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<v Speaker 9>Well, it proves something because even after the schism, they

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<v Speaker 9>still are theologically consistent with Rome.

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<v Speaker 2>More so than that just means that they accepted the

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<v Speaker 2>Roman position.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, So it does it?

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<v Speaker 2>How does that prove that they always believed the Roman

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<v Speaker 2>position when I just gave you an example from ecclesiology

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<v Speaker 2>where they didn't.

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<v Speaker 5>So even before.

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<v Speaker 10>What is it?

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<v Speaker 9>So when Augustine came, there was an insular form of

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<v Speaker 9>Christianity there and it was different in liturgical practice to.

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<v Speaker 5>Both the Roman right and the Orthodox right.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't really understand you're misunderstanding. There's the Orthodox

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<v Speaker 2>Church is not an Orthodox right. It is a confession

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<v Speaker 2>about the faith, the Niceno constabulating Creed, a communion based

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<v Speaker 2>around canons and the sacraments, and it's a decentralized, snodal church.

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<v Speaker 2>So that is the Orthodox Church. And so the mere fact,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, that there is no Vatican One papism in

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<v Speaker 2>the first thousand years also proves my point.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, it's fair enough.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, do you understand the argument that I'm making.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, getting, I'm getting it now. I'm seeing where you're

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<v Speaker 5>coming from.

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<v Speaker 9>Uh yeah, that's I mean, that's why my Twitter handles

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<v Speaker 9>amateur meditations. You know, I'm not very like learned on

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<v Speaker 9>this type of stuff or anything, but I thought.

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<v Speaker 5>I'd give it a shot.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's a similar situation in France, like the Church

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<v Speaker 2>prior to That's why you have these debates, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>why there's things like Gallicanism is like there's this holdover

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<v Speaker 2>of the older sinodal tradition that Papism had to conquer

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<v Speaker 2>all the way up until the modern era, where you

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<v Speaker 2>still have French Catholics who still have a degree of

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<v Speaker 2>resistance to the papacy. Snag that you want to speak

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<v Speaker 2>to that.

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<v Speaker 11>Yeah, So it's important to distinguish being community with Rome

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<v Speaker 11>and even revering Rome because it's an ancient sea in

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<v Speaker 11>Roman Catholicism even after the schism. So I'm not quite sure,

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<v Speaker 11>but the ten sixty six state, because it's based on

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<v Speaker 11>the idea that the paperc said that William the Conqueror

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<v Speaker 11>could conquer. But if you look before that, you you

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<v Speaker 11>will be able to say, look the English and arts

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<v Speaker 11>during the eptarchies that were really influenced by Charlemaine. But

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<v Speaker 11>does it mean Roman Catholicism. No, Charlemagne like was fine

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<v Speaker 11>with of course, like you believed in the Philoque, but

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<v Speaker 11>it was fine with rejecting councils that room accepted. And

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<v Speaker 11>if you go even further, you have, of course, what

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<v Speaker 11>you call the insular form of Christianity. In England, it

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<v Speaker 11>disappeared a bit over time, but if you look at Ireland,

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<v Speaker 11>for example, it's it's we're a lot of sources from Ireland,

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<v Speaker 11>because monks from Ireland were called to re evangelize parts

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<v Speaker 11>of western Europe, western eastern France and northern northern France.

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<v Speaker 11>And you have people like Saint Columbanus who have no

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<v Speaker 11>problem thing that Rome Matthew sixteen eighteen the Seed of Peter,

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<v Speaker 11>but also in the same letters as that in the

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<v Speaker 11>same letter were caused the Seal of Peter unblemish. He

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<v Speaker 11>said that previous popes were heretics and and could be replaced,

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<v Speaker 11>and synod can be called against them, and even the

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<v Speaker 11>subordinates could judge them if they are heretics.

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<v Speaker 5>So you're already really far from Trent Vatican One and that.

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<v Speaker 9>Okay, Okay, I kind of see the argument everything, and

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<v Speaker 9>I do agree that popes can't be heretics and everything,

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<v Speaker 9>and I see where you're all coming from.

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<v Speaker 2>Something that I think before let me ask you question

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<v Speaker 2>of that, because do you think that Vatican one argues

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<v Speaker 2>or posits that a valid pope can be a heretic.

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<v Speaker 9>Hey, I'll be completely honest, I've never read Vatican One

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<v Speaker 9>in its entirety.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, it says that Rome is promised to be

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<v Speaker 2>the center, the source, and the preserver of unity until

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the world. So how you could have

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<v Speaker 2>a defectible pope who is at the same time indefectible

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<v Speaker 2>is to me just doesn't make any sense.

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<v Speaker 12>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, even in the even Peter in the Bible

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<v Speaker 5>was corrected by Paul and everything. But I mean, you

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<v Speaker 5>know that's.

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<v Speaker 2>Different than in Roman Catholic canon law. You said a heretic.

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<v Speaker 2>Now Peter fell into error and was corrected, but a

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<v Speaker 2>heretic in Roman Calviolic canon law is a canonical penalty,

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<v Speaker 2>and that penalty has certain automatic things that occur taste cententia,

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<v Speaker 2>which is if so facto excommunication, that means without pronouncement.

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<v Speaker 2>And so if the pope were a heretic, which is

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<v Speaker 2>what you had said, then he would no longer be

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<v Speaker 2>a member of the church, and thus he could not

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<v Speaker 2>be a head of that which he is not a member.

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<v Speaker 9>So my response to that would be, during the times

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<v Speaker 9>of Israel and the kings of Israel, there were several

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<v Speaker 9>kings that were obviously incredibly wicked and deposed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is a common Protestant style Roman Catholic style analogy,

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<v Speaker 2>and this misses the point of Pentecost. The Church is

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<v Speaker 2>not one hu of percent identical to the structure of Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>The kings in Israel do not have the Keroism of Peter,

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<v Speaker 2>so you can it's a false analogy to compare that

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<v Speaker 2>to the papacy and a lineage of popes who are

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<v Speaker 2>bi Vatican one said to be indefectible and the supreme

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<v Speaker 2>teaching authority for all Christians.

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<v Speaker 13>In the world.

419
00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:01.160
<v Speaker 2>That's a total false equivalent see post Pentecost.

420
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:05.000
<v Speaker 9>So would the office of the Bishop of Rome become

421
00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:09.119
<v Speaker 9>completely invalid through if one pope or another pope became

422
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:10.519
<v Speaker 9>a hairtaker.

423
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:10.759
<v Speaker 5>Spoke heir.

424
00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:15.319
<v Speaker 2>I just think that the Roman Catholic position is inconsistent

425
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:19.000
<v Speaker 2>because it claims on the one hand that the Roman

426
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:22.839
<v Speaker 2>Church is indefectible, and then it also admits that there

427
00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:29.200
<v Speaker 2>have been heterodox popes like Honoius. So that's that's the contradiction.

428
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.839
<v Speaker 2>It's two competing claims which don't make sense. About the

429
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.839
<v Speaker 2>office of the papacy. It doesn't matter whether you say that, well,

430
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.079
<v Speaker 2>the office is still infallible, but the people who hold

431
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.279
<v Speaker 2>the office are the ones that are heretics. Now, it's

432
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.640
<v Speaker 2>a living magisterium in its own definition, so you can't

433
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:47.759
<v Speaker 2>separate the office. It's distinct, but you can't separate the

434
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:51.079
<v Speaker 2>office from the person holding the office. That's why the

435
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:55.319
<v Speaker 2>pope judges the tradition, not you, judging the pope on

436
00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:57.279
<v Speaker 2>the base of tradition. So a lot of trad cats,

437
00:26:57.319 --> 00:26:59.359
<v Speaker 2>a lot of Roman Catholues, get this backwards. They think

438
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.279
<v Speaker 2>they can judge the pope's fidelity to tradition. No, No,

439
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:06.279
<v Speaker 2>the pope is the supreme judge of tradition, not you.

440
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.000
<v Speaker 5>So isn't it correct if I'm wrong?

441
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Speaker 9>But isn't it that it's ex cath when the pope

442
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.920
<v Speaker 9>speaks that he's infallible, and like only when a council

443
00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:20.920
<v Speaker 9>is actually called and he presides on.

444
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:23.920
<v Speaker 2>It's not true. It's just a myth that Roman Catholics

445
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.559
<v Speaker 2>constantly say. I'm not trying to be rude to you.

446
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Ex cathedral is just one of the means or forms

447
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:37.559
<v Speaker 2>of pronouncing infallible dogma. But that is not all that

448
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:39.759
<v Speaker 2>a Roman Catholic is bound to. In fact, you are

449
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:44.039
<v Speaker 2>bound to all of the ordinary teaching, even the teaching

450
00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>that's fallible because of the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff.

451
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:56.680
<v Speaker 2>So it's the ordinary magisterium. Yeah. Right, So, and I'm

452
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.200
<v Speaker 2>going to pull up because I'm not singling you are

453
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:04.680
<v Speaker 2>being rude to you. But many Roman Catholics continue to

454
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:07.119
<v Speaker 2>push this. And I'm going to show you five places

455
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.640
<v Speaker 2>in Denzinger that condemned the position that you're only bound

456
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:19.599
<v Speaker 2>by ex cathedra statements. You ready canon said. I've got

457
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:22.359
<v Speaker 2>seven fifty two, so that's the last one. So Denzinger

458
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:28.160
<v Speaker 2>eighteen thirty, Denzinger sixteen eighty three, Denzinger seventeen twenty two,

459
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:33.559
<v Speaker 2>Dinzinger seventeen ninety two and Canon seven fifty two of

460
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:38.400
<v Speaker 2>the modern Canon law. So those all tell you that no,

461
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.640
<v Speaker 2>it is actually a condemned position to say I am

462
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.079
<v Speaker 2>only bound by ex cathedra. That literally is condemned.

463
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.400
<v Speaker 5>Okay, interesting, I didn't know that.

464
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.440
<v Speaker 9>Would you say that there could be a time in

465
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.599
<v Speaker 9>the future that the Bishop of Rome and the Orthodox

466
00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:58.400
<v Speaker 9>Church could come into a harmony.

467
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:02.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the Bishop of Rome rejected all of the thirty

468
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:05.440
<v Speaker 2>plus erroneous things that they believe.

469
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.759
<v Speaker 5>Okay, all right, Hey, well, I appreciate you having me on.

470
00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:14.319
<v Speaker 14>Great question, all my friends.

471
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:15.519
<v Speaker 5>I was gonna get dunked on, but I was going

472
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:16.480
<v Speaker 5>to give it a shot, you know.

473
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:20.000
<v Speaker 2>So appreciate I appreciate you being civil. And it was

474
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.440
<v Speaker 2>a great conversation. And uh, it's actually refreshing to have

475
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:25.480
<v Speaker 2>that kind of a conversation as opposed to you know,

476
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:27.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot of what we get THEO what's up?

477
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:27.839
<v Speaker 1>Man?

478
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:33.359
<v Speaker 2>So again, I want people to understand that this is

479
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:38.599
<v Speaker 2>a never ending, never dying trad myth that they think

480
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.440
<v Speaker 2>that they're only bound to quote a handful of ex

481
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:46.200
<v Speaker 2>cathedral statements. Again, here is the list, and by the way,

482
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:49.200
<v Speaker 2>I've sent this to Shimoun and everybody because he says

483
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:53.440
<v Speaker 2>the same stuff, because he hears all bractor whoever repeat

484
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.799
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. And you know, it's funny because I don't

485
00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.759
<v Speaker 2>think I've encountered a single rooman Catholic apologies. There may

486
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.160
<v Speaker 2>be one, but I'm not encountered one that actually knows

487
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Danzinger inside or out. And I'm not trying to be arrogant,

488
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:11.759
<v Speaker 2>but I do. So they never go to their quote

489
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.799
<v Speaker 2>sources of Catholic dogma. Isn't that interesting? I got a

490
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:17.079
<v Speaker 2>bunch of a pop apologist out here talking about a

491
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:19.720
<v Speaker 2>bunch of nonsense and this and that quote and this

492
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.359
<v Speaker 2>and that theological Why wouldn't they be familiar with Danzinger?

493
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Do the didn't even know what it is? I mean,

494
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.200
<v Speaker 2>it's weird.

495
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.599
<v Speaker 11>It's also it runs contradictorily to the historical case of

496
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:31.920
<v Speaker 11>trying to make because they will go into history say

497
00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:34.880
<v Speaker 11>we'll look at every single letter sent or received by

498
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:37.680
<v Speaker 11>your pope and said, looky, he says this is a

499
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:40.759
<v Speaker 11>fort An order, and everybody obeyed, and you know, even

500
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:46.000
<v Speaker 11>when it's not real. Yeah, but that's the case that

501
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.160
<v Speaker 11>make historically, that's from for easam All Libara tried to make.

502
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.279
<v Speaker 5>This case or they tried to make it with just

503
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:53.920
<v Speaker 5>some friendly less.

504
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:58.400
<v Speaker 11>As if it's a direct rule that everybody followed, and

505
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:02.039
<v Speaker 11>then when they have faced with it in reality, in

506
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:06.880
<v Speaker 11>the real life, no I don't follow it.

507
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:11.680
<v Speaker 2>What's up to you? Deal Hoxtable? What's up there on you?

508
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:12.519
<v Speaker 5>Oh?

509
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:13.759
<v Speaker 10>Hello, love, guys.

510
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:19.079
<v Speaker 8>Log I think I've been callowing you for many years.

511
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:22.119
<v Speaker 15>I'm a huge.

512
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:24.880
<v Speaker 8>Admirer of yours and all of you guys and your work.

513
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:28.359
<v Speaker 8>I have learned so many things by your side, truly.

514
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:34.319
<v Speaker 2>So my question was that I.

515
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:38.920
<v Speaker 15>Read recently a book by jan Aras. I'm from Greece,

516
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:45.519
<v Speaker 15>and he was talking inside this book about Orthodoxy.

517
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.480
<v Speaker 8>And it is between.

518
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:54.359
<v Speaker 15>Orthodoxy and the West, and he was describing like history,

519
00:31:54.440 --> 00:32:02.880
<v Speaker 15>mostly in some ecclesiology, and he was describing a situation

520
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:08.440
<v Speaker 15>where the Greek Church like started to become more Protestant,

521
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.599
<v Speaker 15>but in their fronima, not in their official doctrine.

522
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:19.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I have all the systematic theologies of Greek theologians

523
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.000
<v Speaker 2>from the eighteen hundreds and it reads like Thomas Aquinas

524
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:28.799
<v Speaker 2>or it reads like a Protestant systematic theology. Yeah. So yeah,

525
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.480
<v Speaker 2>the West and they had a similar situation in Russia

526
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:34.279
<v Speaker 2>in the seventeen hundreds. The West was very influential in

527
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.519
<v Speaker 2>these countries at different times. But by the way, I

528
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:41.400
<v Speaker 2>would not recommend Nars. He's got some pretty wild out

529
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:42.680
<v Speaker 2>there liberal positions.

530
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.799
<v Speaker 15>Actually what troubled me is this, well he this book

531
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.359
<v Speaker 15>like Orthodoxy, and this book is called Orthodoxy and the

532
00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:54.799
<v Speaker 15>West in Modern Degrees.

533
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.920
<v Speaker 8>It has like some okay, it describes this.

534
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:00.160
<v Speaker 1>This party.

535
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.039
<v Speaker 16>Event, I mean, the protestantization of the influence by.

536
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:05.920
<v Speaker 17>The worst pretty well.

537
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:08.079
<v Speaker 8>But he falls victim to.

538
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:15.359
<v Speaker 16>Another another issue, and that's that's nationalism.

539
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:16.640
<v Speaker 5>Like he gives very much.

540
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:20.880
<v Speaker 16>He totally ignores nationalist.

541
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:23.160
<v Speaker 5>And he focuses on these specifics.

542
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:30.599
<v Speaker 16>So I'm also wondering if nationalism is also as an ideology,

543
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:34.160
<v Speaker 16>like like it goes, we can't with this.

544
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:40.079
<v Speaker 2>With this event with Protestantism, I mean it could. I

545
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:44.640
<v Speaker 2>mean modern nationalism is out of the you know, French

546
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:48.599
<v Speaker 2>Revolution Enlightenment ideology, so it definitely could become an idol.

547
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.640
<v Speaker 2>But there's also a way to have, you know, a

548
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Christian nation without it being an idol. Lewis, I don't

549
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:03.039
<v Speaker 2>understand why you're like, what did I say that's even controversial?

550
00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:07.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean I think that the model traditionally is you know,

551
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:11.320
<v Speaker 2>ethnos and people groups and them having kind of their

552
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:15.480
<v Speaker 2>own autocephalos you could say, governance, and then you can

553
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:19.480
<v Speaker 2>have the Orthodox imperium, which integrates and tries to be

554
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.159
<v Speaker 2>a balance of the one in the many. But I

555
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:29.119
<v Speaker 2>don't think that orthodox or that nationalism is inherently Protestant,

556
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:33.440
<v Speaker 2>nor is it inherently an idol. It just can be

557
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:36.519
<v Speaker 2>go ahead Lewis.

558
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:41.880
<v Speaker 18>Yeah, sorry, I wasn't plumbing you down.

559
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, I thought you were like calling me out.

560
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:45.159
<v Speaker 2>I was like, here we go.

561
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:50.400
<v Speaker 17>No, I was just disagreeing with the idea that nationalism

562
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:57.639
<v Speaker 17>was as in like I like Protestantism's because like the idea, okay,

563
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:01.280
<v Speaker 17>find like nationalism was what caused Protestantism.

564
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:06.440
<v Speaker 5>But I think the kind of nationalism that has some involvement.

565
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:08.960
<v Speaker 17>With Protestantism, like for example, with the Church of England,

566
00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:14.360
<v Speaker 17>I think that's like pre Enlightenment. So I'm not disagreeing

567
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.599
<v Speaker 17>with nationalism. Post enlignment is a problem, but I think

568
00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.239
<v Speaker 17>like pre Enlightenment nationalism, which is just a love for

569
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.880
<v Speaker 17>your own people and your own in group and not

570
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:29.480
<v Speaker 17>wanting foreign powers, which was what the papacy was influencing

571
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:33.239
<v Speaker 17>your like being this fifth column in your nation. I

572
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:38.440
<v Speaker 17>think that's I think that's good and natural. So I

573
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:41.239
<v Speaker 17>don't blame Kenry the eighth for being like I think

574
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.199
<v Speaker 17>it was. I think it was, you know, wrong for

575
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.400
<v Speaker 17>some reasons. But I also think the papacy was stupid

576
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:51.760
<v Speaker 17>to not just play real politic with his situation and like,

577
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:55.920
<v Speaker 17>you know, have all this influence, and obviously he was

578
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:56.559
<v Speaker 17>gonna be like, well.

579
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:57.079
<v Speaker 5>I don't want this.

580
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:02.079
<v Speaker 11>Means that we're playing real politic against him.

581
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:09.280
<v Speaker 14>Yeah, right, yeah.

582
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:14.039
<v Speaker 2>I think Snack has commented on I mean Francis even recently,

583
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.920
<v Speaker 2>like like Francis saying everybody in your Europe and American

584
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:21.760
<v Speaker 2>needs have open borders. I mean that's a subversive foreign entity.

585
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.480
<v Speaker 17>Like well, a lot of a lot of NGOs, A

586
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:30.280
<v Speaker 17>lot of NGOs that fund and support mass migration are.

587
00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:35.960
<v Speaker 2>So called Christian, yeah, and Roman Catholic, especially Catholic charities, yeah,

588
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:40.039
<v Speaker 2>and other Middle Eastern nations, as I'm sure we all know.

589
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:42.800
<v Speaker 2>But you can support the stream via super chests there.

590
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.719
<v Speaker 2>Thank you to Lewis and Snag there for those good comments. Now,

591
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:47.079
<v Speaker 2>I think we have a real Catholic who wants to

592
00:36:47.159 --> 00:37:02.280
<v Speaker 2>discuss what's up man you got an immune. Hello, Hey,

593
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:03.599
<v Speaker 2>hey Dan, what's up?

594
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:06.519
<v Speaker 8>I am a few days ago.

595
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:09.719
<v Speaker 19>I think I might have Misshargie, but I got the

596
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:13.280
<v Speaker 19>impression that you were saying that the logical position for

597
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:16.519
<v Speaker 19>a Roman Catholic would be to be set of accountais.

598
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I think that both set of a

599
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:27.360
<v Speaker 2>constiest and uh, you know normal Novasorto Catholics are both

600
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:31.119
<v Speaker 2>right and both wrong. So if you wanted to be

601
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.519
<v Speaker 2>if you're talking about the Dasha debate, I was saying

602
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:36.599
<v Speaker 2>that if she was consistent with her critiques of Francis,

603
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:38.920
<v Speaker 2>then she would have to be set of a conciss.

604
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:43.360
<v Speaker 8>Sure, but I think that that also touched a bit

605
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:44.239
<v Speaker 8>on your joint base.

606
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:44.400
<v Speaker 3>Jo.

607
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:46.639
<v Speaker 8>Anyway, Jay, I thank you impression that you.

608
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.639
<v Speaker 19>Got into Roman Catholic of him and you started to

609
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:51.519
<v Speaker 19>question like the paper feat Thatcher.

610
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I had a period where I was tradcat Latin

611
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Mass doubted Vatican two absolutely.

612
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.159
<v Speaker 19>With you consider arguing in favor of athetical countering against

613
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:08.760
<v Speaker 19>like a Artican chie complaining Catholicism. I mean, I know

614
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.719
<v Speaker 19>used for Orthodoxy, but I say orstdoxy wasn't an option,

615
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.239
<v Speaker 19>and you were talking to women Catholic, would you say

616
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:18.079
<v Speaker 19>that there should be a set of cannabis.

617
00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:22.000
<v Speaker 7>Well not now.

618
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean I would have said that maybe in two

619
00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:28.280
<v Speaker 2>thousand and six, But why would I Why do you

620
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.039
<v Speaker 2>want to argue with me from two thousand and six?

621
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Why not me right now?

622
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:35.559
<v Speaker 8>I guess it was a really curious position.

623
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:39.159
<v Speaker 19>And I guess it kind of gets into the interpretation

624
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:42.599
<v Speaker 19>of bacon cheese text because I actually used to.

625
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:46.239
<v Speaker 8>Be a set of cantabas at one point. Oh so, yeah,

626
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:47.800
<v Speaker 8>So when I heard like bacon che.

627
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:52.559
<v Speaker 19>Texts being described like a break in the face for example,

628
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:56.320
<v Speaker 19>that immediately alerted me, and I was very curious on

629
00:38:56.599 --> 00:39:00.360
<v Speaker 19>the details a bit like, you know, it's a particular document,

630
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:03.159
<v Speaker 19>good points, and say this section here with break with

631
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:04.360
<v Speaker 19>traditional college ete.

632
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I'll give you one example beyond no stra

633
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:11.000
<v Speaker 2>taught there or something like that. I mean, the statements

634
00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:14.880
<v Speaker 2>on religious liberty, freedom of conscious, freedom of worship, I

635
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:19.760
<v Speaker 2>would argue, are completely contrary to the medieval teaching of

636
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.480
<v Speaker 2>the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop, which in when

637
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:24.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm sanctum is made necessary for salvation.

638
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.320
<v Speaker 8>I mean, I'm not not too familiar with that particular document.

639
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:37.679
<v Speaker 19>For me, said come Demangentia which made some similar arguments

640
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.039
<v Speaker 19>about religious liberty.

641
00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, well, hold on. So it's crucial to this argument

642
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.639
<v Speaker 2>that you understand what that is. So in thirteen eighty two,

643
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:51.480
<v Speaker 2>thirteen oh two, excuse me, Pope Boniface the eight pronounced

644
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.519
<v Speaker 2>a famous document. It's not very long as when I'm sanctum,

645
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:59.320
<v Speaker 2>and it's about, on the one hand, the spiritual authority

646
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:03.320
<v Speaker 2>of the papers, but it's also about the universal temporal

647
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:07.360
<v Speaker 2>supremacy of the papacy, in that he is also the

648
00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:11.199
<v Speaker 2>king of kings and head of all world rulers. And

649
00:40:11.320 --> 00:40:15.480
<v Speaker 2>it mandates that not only must you believe in the

650
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.719
<v Speaker 2>spiritual supremacy of the Roman Bishop, you must also believe

651
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:23.960
<v Speaker 2>in his temporal power and authority to be saved. That's

652
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.440
<v Speaker 2>the last paragraph of the document. And if you recall,

653
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:29.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure you know as a tradcat that the pope

654
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:32.119
<v Speaker 2>used to wear a triple crown, right, and that signified

655
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:36.719
<v Speaker 2>that authority. The post Vatican two popes no longer wear

656
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:40.079
<v Speaker 2>that triple crown. Vatican two, under the influence of Jacques

657
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Martain and others who were Americanists and essentially pluralists, promoted

658
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:50.400
<v Speaker 2>and passed the idea via via dignitatis humane and the

659
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:55.360
<v Speaker 2>other statements about religious liberty that now promote pluralism and

660
00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:03.039
<v Speaker 2>essentially a egalitarian, open society approach to religion and not

661
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:07.840
<v Speaker 2>the preference of a Christian state. In fact, Benedicta sixteenth

662
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.639
<v Speaker 2>even said that in some of the countries in Europe

663
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:13.480
<v Speaker 2>they need to be de Christianized. So to me, that's

664
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.920
<v Speaker 2>just absolutely completely the kill shot opposite position.

665
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:25.079
<v Speaker 8>I mean, I have read in Basancy documents.

666
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.360
<v Speaker 19>I'm not trying to share refection, but there is an

667
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.079
<v Speaker 19>argument that the state should permit religious liberty participants.

668
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:34.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not trying to be rude, but did you hear

669
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:35.840
<v Speaker 2>anything that I argue?

670
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:39.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

671
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:39.719
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, yeah.

672
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:41.679
<v Speaker 2>Could you repeat what I argued?

673
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:50.320
<v Speaker 19>Did you saying that in Geno Fountain there is the

674
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:53.280
<v Speaker 19>idea that the papacy, kim king, et.

675
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:54.800
<v Speaker 8>Cetera, and.

676
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.760
<v Speaker 5>The state is required to.

677
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 8>I made a Catholic.

678
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:07.320
<v Speaker 19>Religion which had been abandoned in paid by Spanie.

679
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:10.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, basically, but it's stronger than that, because the

680
00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:15.039
<v Speaker 2>unham sanctum dogma is that to be saved you must

681
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:18.599
<v Speaker 2>also confess the temporal power and supremacy of the Roman bishop.

682
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.719
<v Speaker 2>And with the pronunciations and promulgations of that I can

683
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.280
<v Speaker 2>choose religious liberty doctrines. That is no longer believed, nor

684
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:29.519
<v Speaker 2>is it required. Nor have I heard of any Roman

685
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.239
<v Speaker 2>Catholic church in the world that tells me that I

686
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:35.000
<v Speaker 2>have to believe in the temporal supremacy to be saved anymore.

687
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:47.320
<v Speaker 19>Okay, I mean that, I mean that that kind of

688
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:55.360
<v Speaker 19>gets somewhere, like, I don't think by scontigue arguing.

689
00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:01.000
<v Speaker 5>He can be saved if church.

690
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:04.239
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, See, it's not a question of inside

691
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:07.280
<v Speaker 2>outside the church salvation. It's a question of the dogma

692
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:10.440
<v Speaker 2>of the temporal supremacy and power of the Roman Bishop

693
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:15.000
<v Speaker 2>was necessary as a belief for salvation in thirteen oh two,

694
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.239
<v Speaker 2>it's no longer necessary. Therefore, Roman Catholic dogma changes and contradicts.

695
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:25.079
<v Speaker 19>I'd say it is necessary any gay.

696
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:29.119
<v Speaker 2>So you're telling me that post Vatican Two, the Roman

697
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Catholic Church still confesses that the Pope is a world

698
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:34.719
<v Speaker 2>emperor and world leader and the head of all states.

699
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:42.280
<v Speaker 8>That post be in that language.

700
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:47.880
<v Speaker 2>They don't believe that contradiction is opposite. No, of course,

701
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.079
<v Speaker 2>it is to say that the states need to be decatholicized,

702
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:57.000
<v Speaker 2>and that the Church now promotes religious pluralism in modern

703
00:43:57.079 --> 00:43:59.880
<v Speaker 2>society is the opposite of saying that you have to

704
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:02.199
<v Speaker 2>believe in the temporal supremacy to be saved.

705
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:06.119
<v Speaker 10>I don't.

706
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:09.119
<v Speaker 8>I don't think fake. I mean, if you think the

707
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:12.639
<v Speaker 8>states the purpose of state is chief force.

708
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:15.760
<v Speaker 2>Everyone to be safe, again, that's nothing to do. Did

709
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:17.559
<v Speaker 2>I say anything about the state force of people to

710
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:19.920
<v Speaker 2>be saved? So now you're going off into red herrings

711
00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:20.559
<v Speaker 2>and straw man.

712
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:24.000
<v Speaker 19>But I'm just trying to make the connection because you're

713
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.840
<v Speaker 19>just saying that the bath can chieve permitted religious liberty.

714
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:32.119
<v Speaker 2>And that's not compatible with the temporal supremacy, that the

715
00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:39.880
<v Speaker 2>pope is the head of all world rulers. I think

716
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:42.239
<v Speaker 2>it is okay, Well, yeah, you can think that. And

717
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:44.440
<v Speaker 2>tell me where in the Roman Catholic world today you

718
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:48.280
<v Speaker 2>find any Roman Catholics in communion with the with Rome

719
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:50.360
<v Speaker 2>that teach the temporal supremacy.

720
00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:57.039
<v Speaker 8>A sure, sure, I mean, I get back to that.

721
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:00.360
<v Speaker 19>I mean, but what I wanted to highlight them, if

722
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:06.800
<v Speaker 19>I may diverge a bit, was for me said counting

723
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:10.719
<v Speaker 19>them with Bilsom, reading bascant texts and seeing miss contradiction

724
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:14.400
<v Speaker 19>with the tradition of face, which kind of quite a

725
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:19.159
<v Speaker 19>way coming from Jay, But what I read was commentaries

726
00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:20.400
<v Speaker 19>on bascan.

727
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Cheat or commentaries fallible or infallible.

728
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:30.119
<v Speaker 10>They're fallible, but they teach you the interpretation of the text.

729
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:33.800
<v Speaker 2>So in other words, the way that romancallic dogma works

730
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:37.679
<v Speaker 2>is that the final arbiter, which is the infallible dogmas,

731
00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:42.920
<v Speaker 2>now need interpretive contexts that are fallible. So what use

732
00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:45.800
<v Speaker 2>was the infallible dogmas if I need the fallible now

733
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:46.719
<v Speaker 2>to make sense of it?

734
00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:51.039
<v Speaker 19>Well, it was infallible in the sense that the person

735
00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:55.079
<v Speaker 19>who promagulated it meant meant it, and the debate is

736
00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:56.480
<v Speaker 19>really about you know what.

737
00:45:56.679 --> 00:45:58.119
<v Speaker 8>Was meant by the question?

738
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:01.320
<v Speaker 2>So infallible dogmas don't to resolve the issue.

739
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:05.920
<v Speaker 8>Like that understand now?

740
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh so, what use then, is the purpose of the

741
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:12.719
<v Speaker 2>infallible dogmas? When I thought their purpose was to solve.

742
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:16.920
<v Speaker 19>The issue, Well, then they do so the issue you

743
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.639
<v Speaker 19>understand it correctly, which is the purpose of the commentaries

744
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:20.920
<v Speaker 19>to help you understand.

745
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:23.760
<v Speaker 2>What they do solve the issue with the foul. So again,

746
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:28.039
<v Speaker 2>they don't solve the issue if they require fallible commentators

747
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:28.639
<v Speaker 2>to explain it.

748
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:34.000
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, they say they sold the issue, but if you

749
00:46:34.119 --> 00:46:35.360
<v Speaker 8>understand it correctly.

750
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:38.559
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's what's in question. So you're just repeating your

751
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:48.119
<v Speaker 2>position over again. Okay, I mean, look, I'm try'n to

752
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:50.239
<v Speaker 2>be rude, but let's let's pause it there because I

753
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.079
<v Speaker 2>don't want to have this go in a bad direction

754
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:56.199
<v Speaker 2>and have a you know, you know I wanted to

755
00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:59.519
<v Speaker 2>Let's let's just stop it there because we want to

756
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:04.000
<v Speaker 2>be cool. Alaska. What's up man? Now, you're welcome to

757
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:06.800
<v Speaker 2>come back, go read some books and come back, but

758
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:11.280
<v Speaker 2>we're going to try to have it as cordial and

759
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:16.800
<v Speaker 2>friendly as possible. What's up, man, I'm Alaska.

760
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:23.239
<v Speaker 5>Principle.

761
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:26.880
<v Speaker 2>Are you there? Can you hear me? What's up? Man?

762
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:30.960
<v Speaker 5>Can you hear me? Oh?

763
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

764
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:34.960
<v Speaker 5>I just had like a small question because I'm not sure.

765
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:37.320
<v Speaker 5>I am a very new Orthodox.

766
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.519
<v Speaker 20>Cate of Cuman, and I had a question about the

767
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:46.800
<v Speaker 20>Coptic Church because if I understand it correctly, they were

768
00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:51.159
<v Speaker 20>like the first schism with the Church because of the

769
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:52.760
<v Speaker 20>natures of Christ, right.

770
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:56.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean there were prior to that. I mean thenovationists,

771
00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:59.400
<v Speaker 2>the donutists are prior to that. But go ahead.

772
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:02.559
<v Speaker 20>Yeah, I just wanted to ask about it because I

773
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.519
<v Speaker 20>was wishing this video with this like Coptic monk, and he.

774
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:06.559
<v Speaker 2>Was like really cool.

775
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:09.239
<v Speaker 20>I thought he was like really you know, saying some

776
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:12.000
<v Speaker 20>really good stuff, you know, And so I wanted to

777
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:15.039
<v Speaker 20>ask your opinion about like is it heretical to church

778
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:15.920
<v Speaker 20>or what's that?

779
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, unfortunately they're heterodox. And you can go to my

780
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.960
<v Speaker 2>channel where we have two of our ongoing series up

781
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:27.239
<v Speaker 2>with me Kai and David rhun As. We're walking through

782
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:31.639
<v Speaker 2>Eastern or semi Oriental claims. We will be back to

783
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:33.920
<v Speaker 2>that in the next few weeks, I think now that

784
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Kai is back from his honeymoon. Now, guys, we're looking

785
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:42.440
<v Speaker 2>for people who disagree. So I appreciate the Orthodox catechumen questions,

786
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:44.000
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not trying to be rude to you, but

787
00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:48.679
<v Speaker 2>it's very clearly today listed as debate between Protestant, Catholic

788
00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:52.599
<v Speaker 2>and Orthodox. So if you've got basic level catechumen questions,

789
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:56.960
<v Speaker 2>please take those to your catechist and take that to

790
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.800
<v Speaker 2>your priest, because you're really just taking the way from

791
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:03.880
<v Speaker 2>what I want to direct today's discussion too, which is

792
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the issues of Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. So I know

793
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:09.840
<v Speaker 2>you have diet questions, I know you have fasting questions.

794
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:12.599
<v Speaker 2>I know you have can law questions. I know you

795
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:18.280
<v Speaker 2>have questions about you know whatever, Please not today. I'm

796
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:22.079
<v Speaker 2>just not doing that today. And it's really annoying when

797
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.199
<v Speaker 2>everyone calls in with the same FAQ questions. When we

798
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:33.119
<v Speaker 2>do this, Greg, what's that man? Before Greg comes on,

799
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I want to note that, you know, there's this kind

800
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:39.280
<v Speaker 2>of goofy news story going around that all the CIA

801
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:41.920
<v Speaker 2>do classify that they might have found the arc of

802
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.400
<v Speaker 2>the Covenant and that was done with remote viewing. All

803
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:48.760
<v Speaker 2>this stuff is stupid, Okay, just because something's declassified doesn't

804
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:51.760
<v Speaker 2>mean that it's really what the CIA was up to. Okay,

805
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:58.519
<v Speaker 2>they'll declassify anything that was classified for various reasons, even

806
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:03.760
<v Speaker 2>if it's just random journal, random speculative magazines, you're right,

807
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:08.519
<v Speaker 2>like the one that mentions, you know, suppressed history or whatever.

808
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:12.559
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't mean that it's true, especially if it's got stupid,

809
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:14.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, remote viewing type stuff in it. So people

810
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:19.199
<v Speaker 2>are talking about although they think they found the Covenant. Now, okay,

811
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:22.599
<v Speaker 2>maybe this is possible. I don't know, but I know

812
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:26.679
<v Speaker 2>that in Jeremiah it's very clearly prophesied in the Messianic era,

813
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.280
<v Speaker 2>and this is when the Gentiles convert this is whence.

814
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:34.320
<v Speaker 2>So that's how we know it's the Messianic era. It

815
00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:38.960
<v Speaker 2>talks about the gentiles being gathered to Israel. That's the Church. Okay,

816
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:43.159
<v Speaker 2>that's not John Hagen's End Times thing in Palestine.

817
00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:45.000
<v Speaker 8>This is the Church.

818
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:49.599
<v Speaker 2>And it says it will come to pass that when

819
00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.199
<v Speaker 2>you're a multiplied and increase in the land, they will

820
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:55.719
<v Speaker 2>no longer say the arc of the Covenant. It will

821
00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:58.960
<v Speaker 2>not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor

822
00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:02.239
<v Speaker 2>will they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.

823
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:05.719
<v Speaker 2>At that time, Jerusalem would be called the throat of

824
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.519
<v Speaker 2>the Lord, and the gentiles will be gathered to it.

825
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:15.159
<v Speaker 2>That's the Church, not flesh Israel. This is a prophecy

826
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:20.199
<v Speaker 2>of the Messianic era. How do we know because the

827
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.440
<v Speaker 2>gentiles are being brought in verse seventeen. One of the

828
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:27.880
<v Speaker 2>signs that we are in the Messianic Church Kingdom era

829
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:33.239
<v Speaker 2>is that we will not have or know about the

830
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Ark of the Covenant, because the real arc of the

831
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:40.599
<v Speaker 2>Covenant is here, which is the Theo Tokos in Jesus's

832
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:43.679
<v Speaker 2>body himself and the Church and all of your bodies

833
00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:49.559
<v Speaker 2>are living arcs. So is it possible they could find

834
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:52.559
<v Speaker 2>some ancient relic of the art guests possible, I guess,

835
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:57.159
<v Speaker 2>but we are not going to like.

836
00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:57.920
<v Speaker 7>Go back to.

837
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Ceremonial Jewish temple worship like the premillennialists and the dispensationless thing.

838
00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:16.360
<v Speaker 2>What's up, Greg? I really enjoy your show, man.

839
00:52:16.760 --> 00:52:18.360
<v Speaker 8>I wanted to see if I could ask you a question.

840
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:25.559
<v Speaker 2>Okay, if this is a good argument against ps.

841
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:30.840
<v Speaker 8>A and p s A.

842
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:39.519
<v Speaker 3>Is I understand that penal substitutionary atonement the Yeah, the

843
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:42.800
<v Speaker 3>sin of Adam, the sin of man in general, incurs

844
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:46.920
<v Speaker 3>an almost infinite wrath of the Father which Jesus has

845
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:47.360
<v Speaker 3>to pay for.

846
00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Correct typically, Yeah, that would be agreed with. Classical process

847
00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:53.960
<v Speaker 2>would agree with that, guess.

848
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:05.639
<v Speaker 3>So my question though, is wouldn't adam sin and even

849
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:10.119
<v Speaker 3>my sin also be in the same affront to the

850
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:11.639
<v Speaker 3>son as it is to the father?

851
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:20.039
<v Speaker 5>Yes, so who pays off the son?

852
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, this is a point actually that we do make

853
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:29.480
<v Speaker 2>against penal substitutionary atonement in that it is a dieaddic

854
00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:34.199
<v Speaker 2>because you have this payment between two persons that neglects

855
00:53:34.599 --> 00:53:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the third person, and by extension, it would neglect the

856
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:40.000
<v Speaker 2>second person as well. So yes, this is a variation

857
00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:42.360
<v Speaker 2>on and I'm not trying to be rude or still

858
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:44.239
<v Speaker 2>your thunder. But it's a variation on the argument that

859
00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:46.400
<v Speaker 2>we made many times. So there's nothing in the Godhead

860
00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:51.280
<v Speaker 2>that occurs that's just between two people, or to precuent me,

861
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:53.920
<v Speaker 2>two persons, right, So anything that happens has to be triadic.

862
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:58.719
<v Speaker 2>So you can't have you know, the Father damning the son. Okay,

863
00:53:58.760 --> 00:54:01.119
<v Speaker 2>what about the Holy Spirit? Is he not involved in this? Well?

864
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:04.199
<v Speaker 2>Like it makes no sense. So but I think you're

865
00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:07.239
<v Speaker 2>right to go that route too. It's another variation. But

866
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:10.639
<v Speaker 2>also I think Protestants are just typically thinking of Jesus

867
00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:17.599
<v Speaker 2>as a quite a quasiti nestorian, just a man, right,

868
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.679
<v Speaker 2>So I know they confess his divinity, but if you

869
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:24.519
<v Speaker 2>think about it, ps A, it either requires a split

870
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:28.199
<v Speaker 2>of the trinity or to a dual subject Christology, which

871
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:35.440
<v Speaker 2>is an historian appreciate it. Yeah, that's a great question.

872
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:50.119
<v Speaker 2>You're you're on the right track, dog Lord Jays. Do

873
00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:52.199
<v Speaker 2>you though have thoughts in the book Against All Heresies

874
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:55.440
<v Speaker 2>by Saint Simon at Thessalonika? Stephen H Well, I know

875
00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:58.079
<v Speaker 2>that one of the mods got the book and said

876
00:54:58.079 --> 00:54:59.800
<v Speaker 2>it was really good, so I have it on my

877
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.480
<v Speaker 2>I was on ta get list, but I don't have

878
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:04.639
<v Speaker 2>it yet. Intel While five dollars, great work, Jay, thank you,

879
00:55:05.480 --> 00:55:08.119
<v Speaker 2>keep up the excellent work. Bradymore is five dollars. What's up?

880
00:55:08.199 --> 00:55:08.360
<v Speaker 13>Jay?

881
00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:09.920
<v Speaker 2>I got your minute there to his book. I can't

882
00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:13.519
<v Speaker 2>wait to read it. Appreciate that. And I've gotten the

883
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:17.639
<v Speaker 2>more recent edition of Asster Hollywood three back from the publisher.

884
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:20.920
<v Speaker 2>It's looking pretty sweet. I think it's going to be

885
00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:24.599
<v Speaker 2>pretty good, and that will be out actually hopefully sooner

886
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.800
<v Speaker 2>than expected. You know, he had said originally anywhere from

887
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:33.079
<v Speaker 2>July to September might even be out pretty soon. So

888
00:55:33.280 --> 00:55:36.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe even April May, that would be ideal. Evan, why

889
00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:41.639
<v Speaker 2>won't you debate Jakkub? But why would I debate my superiors?

890
00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:45.599
<v Speaker 2>It's my job to submit to superior as an inferior.

891
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:48.000
<v Speaker 2>Anonymous ten dollars two years ago, your videos help me

892
00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:50.760
<v Speaker 2>take my first up to Orthodoxy. Next week, my family

893
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:52.480
<v Speaker 2>and I will be joining the church. Thank you, Jay, Hey,

894
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:54.840
<v Speaker 2>thank you Anonymous. Appreciate that many years to you. John

895
00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Isaac two dollars. Yeah, cuh debate with Jakub for real again?

896
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.239
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not going to debate my creator Ka Kavier

897
00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:11.039
<v Speaker 2>one dollar. You are accused in heresy fallacy A good one, dude,

898
00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:14.760
<v Speaker 2>you got me. He misspelled it though, because I think

899
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:20.280
<v Speaker 2>you meant to say a cursed Lawrence John fifty n okas?

900
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Is that North Korean money?

901
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:23.000
<v Speaker 7>Knock?

902
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:26.719
<v Speaker 2>Fifty knock. The Celtic Church was in contact with the

903
00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:32.039
<v Speaker 2>Desert Fathers. Also, Vikings were Orthodox being guards in Eastern Rome.

904
00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:37.039
<v Speaker 2>Make the connections for Calvin R. Was that the guy

905
00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:41.400
<v Speaker 2>that was in it earlier? Brandon five dollars, Thank you

906
00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:46.639
<v Speaker 2>for pulling the stops on my journey to Rome. Some

907
00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:49.920
<v Speaker 2>of these things can no longer be unseen. Pope can

908
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:55.159
<v Speaker 2>be infallible and ahertics simultaneously, exactly me and Eugene five dollars.

909
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much. G. Twenty six five dollars. Thank

910
00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:00.800
<v Speaker 2>you for continually destroying these Romancaley probable positions, Glory of

911
00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:03.400
<v Speaker 2>the Fathers and Holy Spirit. Appreciate that G. Twenty six

912
00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:07.079
<v Speaker 2>s S. Twenty one five dollars. Many Catholics are appealing

913
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:10.639
<v Speaker 2>lately to the essence inergy distinction to get around church contradictions.

914
00:57:11.239 --> 00:57:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Are they allowed to hold this? I don't understand how

915
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:17.400
<v Speaker 2>that would get around contradictions. That makes no sense. I mean,

916
00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:20.320
<v Speaker 2>first of all, it'll be admitting what was more or

917
00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:24.800
<v Speaker 2>less denied in the condemnations of the Palamite Synods, and

918
00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:30.199
<v Speaker 2>what's condemned, you know, at Florence. So to turn around

919
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:32.440
<v Speaker 2>and say that, oh, now we believe in essence inergy sinction,

920
00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:37.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean the entire tone mistradition is going to reject

921
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:41.079
<v Speaker 2>the essence center distinction. So I think that's just more

922
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:43.559
<v Speaker 2>absurdity of the room mecallity. But how is that going

923
00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:46.719
<v Speaker 2>to help anybody say that dogma changes it? I mean

924
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:49.039
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like they think the essence interitgsinction means that

925
00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:51.559
<v Speaker 2>God can change or it changes things or something. That's

926
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:54.119
<v Speaker 2>not what it means. Elias, what's up? We came a member,

927
00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:01.599
<v Speaker 2>maximum became a member? What's up?

928
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:01.880
<v Speaker 7>Dude?

929
00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:04.320
<v Speaker 5>Ma?

930
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:06.559
<v Speaker 2>Since ten bucks? Thanks dude?

931
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:09.320
<v Speaker 5>Uh?

932
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Lord Jays, you want to I mute? What's up? Are

933
00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:19.360
<v Speaker 2>you there?

934
00:58:21.719 --> 00:58:22.199
<v Speaker 10>Can you hear me?

935
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:23.079
<v Speaker 2>What's up?

936
00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:24.000
<v Speaker 10>Okay?

937
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:25.079
<v Speaker 5>Sir? Hi?

938
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:27.079
<v Speaker 7>Hey?

939
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:30.840
<v Speaker 21>I was just watching your videos and going through the

940
00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:34.800
<v Speaker 21>ps A something more similar to what the previous people

941
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:37.639
<v Speaker 21>were talking about, and I had a question.

942
00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:46.320
<v Speaker 10>I've been studying this subject and looking for like like

943
00:58:46.480 --> 00:58:53.639
<v Speaker 10>answers and things like that. So when we say that.

944
00:58:56.199 --> 00:58:59.840
<v Speaker 21>There has to be a necessary split and the trend

945
00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:06.159
<v Speaker 21>he if if Jesus was supposed to have the to

946
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:12.159
<v Speaker 21>get upon himself the wrath of God, how is that

947
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:17.239
<v Speaker 21>not how a Protestant is able to say the contrary

948
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:21.440
<v Speaker 21>to that matter? I was watching your video where you

949
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:27.679
<v Speaker 21>were explaining James White book on that matter as well.

950
00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:31.719
<v Speaker 21>How is it that they cannot see that? And is

951
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.239
<v Speaker 21>it that obvious?

952
00:59:34.119 --> 00:59:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Or Protestants don't have very good trinitarian theology, so they

953
00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:45.800
<v Speaker 2>in the Reformation they defaulted to the Latin Augustinian model

954
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:50.920
<v Speaker 2>of the trinity. They don't have the monarchical trinitarian model

955
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:55.519
<v Speaker 2>that we have, and they don't, by extension then have

956
00:59:55.920 --> 01:00:01.280
<v Speaker 2>the right toolkit for really distinct persons, and so person

957
01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:04.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of gets collapsed into essence or nature in the

958
01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:08.159
<v Speaker 2>Protestant view, just like it does in the traditional Latin

959
01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:13.239
<v Speaker 2>Roman Catholic position via Augustine and so an aquinas. So

960
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:16.159
<v Speaker 2>if you don't have that right toolkit, that's why you

961
01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:19.960
<v Speaker 2>see the Tomuss. They don't think that the Theophanes are possible.

962
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:22.480
<v Speaker 2>They don't think that the Angel Lord is the second person,

963
01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:24.719
<v Speaker 2>that Godhead, even though it's obvious in the New Testament

964
01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:27.679
<v Speaker 2>that he is because Jesus identifies himself as that, and

965
01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:31.480
<v Speaker 2>he's even worshiped and called you know, yahweh and so

966
01:00:31.639 --> 01:00:34.039
<v Speaker 2>forth throughout the Old Testament. They just can't fathom this

967
01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:37.639
<v Speaker 2>because they have a metaphysical system that prevents them from

968
01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:40.280
<v Speaker 2>believing that. And it's the same with Protestants, except it's

969
01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:43.119
<v Speaker 2>not so much a metaphysical system as it is the

970
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:47.760
<v Speaker 2>baggage of what they think these terms and these systems

971
01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:51.400
<v Speaker 2>mean that prevent them from seeing that it makes no

972
01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:54.239
<v Speaker 2>sense from a trinitarian perspective to say that the father

973
01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:56.639
<v Speaker 2>damns the son. It's just stupid.

974
01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:01.440
<v Speaker 21>Yeah, yeah, I was trying to who wrap my head

975
01:01:01.519 --> 01:01:06.320
<v Speaker 21>on that explanation. And then I went around and look

976
01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:11.000
<v Speaker 21>at Governor Ortland on video on that and he was

977
01:01:11.079 --> 01:01:13.559
<v Speaker 21>trying to reconcile recapitulation with.

978
01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:25.119
<v Speaker 10>SPA so s A, I'm sorry, and he was saying

979
01:01:25.159 --> 01:01:27.719
<v Speaker 10>that it was possible, that it was possible to do so.

980
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, So I mean that's you know, creativity on

981
01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:35.719
<v Speaker 2>his part. But like I think Protestants don't understand that

982
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:39.039
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these doctrines they're not standalone doctrines, right,

983
01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:45.719
<v Speaker 2>like the the the monarchical trinitarianism is logically and theologically

984
01:01:45.800 --> 01:01:50.639
<v Speaker 2>connected to energetic manifestation and the Essen synergy distinction. It

985
01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:53.480
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make sense because you can find Protestant theologians he

986
01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:55.800
<v Speaker 2>will say, oh, actually I believe I think one of them,

987
01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Robert Moray. I think he says he believes in the

988
01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:01.199
<v Speaker 2>Essen Senter distinction. Yeah. I mean you can theoretically say

989
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:04.760
<v Speaker 2>you believe that, but it's not a consistent position given

990
01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:07.639
<v Speaker 2>the fact that those doctrines don't stand alone, right, They

991
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:11.800
<v Speaker 2>go along with other necessary doctrines, like a certain view

992
01:02:11.800 --> 01:02:15.239
<v Speaker 2>of sacramentology, the real presence, et cetera. So it's just

993
01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:18.519
<v Speaker 2>really an inconsistent position to pick and choose and say, oh,

994
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:22.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to find a way to smash maximistic Confessor's

995
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:26.719
<v Speaker 2>cosmic theology into John Calvin. Not gonna happen because in

996
01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:30.559
<v Speaker 2>John Calvin's theology, Christ does not assume universal human nature.

997
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:37.519
<v Speaker 21>Yeah, I see, appreciate your answers, thank you for everything, Okay,

998
01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:38.480
<v Speaker 21>appreciate it.

999
01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, those are great questions. Appreciate you. Rolls takes

1000
01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:48.880
<v Speaker 2>twenty dollars. Roman Caloks have a Schools of Theology frame

1001
01:02:48.920 --> 01:02:53.360
<v Speaker 2>of thinking. Yes, absolutely, they think that the essence interstinction

1002
01:02:53.559 --> 01:02:56.440
<v Speaker 2>in Polemism is a school of thought. Correct. They do

1003
01:02:56.559 --> 01:03:01.239
<v Speaker 2>not understand it as essentially the sperience of all the saints,

1004
01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:06.239
<v Speaker 2>and that's why you have essentially everything all over the

1005
01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:10.599
<v Speaker 2>place with them. So you can have Roman Catholic spirituality

1006
01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:14.440
<v Speaker 2>being Margaret merri el Coquid cutting yourself with a knife

1007
01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:19.440
<v Speaker 2>and bleeding out, and that's a divine experience. And you

1008
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:23.079
<v Speaker 2>can be a crusader going into battle. That's a divine

1009
01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:27.360
<v Speaker 2>because you could be a monk warrior, which suddenly exists

1010
01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:30.039
<v Speaker 2>in the eleventh century and violation of the ancient canons. Well,

1011
01:03:30.039 --> 01:03:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the Pope says, no, we can have monk warriors now.

1012
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:33.960
<v Speaker 2>So in the Roman Caloic system it can just be

1013
01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:38.360
<v Speaker 2>anything you say. It's not just schools. It's also warrior monks,

1014
01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:43.920
<v Speaker 2>just crazy shit, just made up, right, But you're correct

1015
01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:48.679
<v Speaker 2>that regarding their perspective, they think it's a school. They

1016
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:52.760
<v Speaker 2>don't understand that when the sixth Ecumenical Council teaches the

1017
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:56.280
<v Speaker 2>essence introducecinction in Christology, it's not a school of thought

1018
01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:01.239
<v Speaker 2>for them. Tumism is another school, and they can believe

1019
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:03.880
<v Speaker 2>in any of the ones that they want more or less.

1020
01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:06.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's difficult if you want to be a

1021
01:04:06.519 --> 01:04:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Roman Catholic and contend with Attorney Patras, which Leo the

1022
01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:16.599
<v Speaker 2>thirteenth says, Tomism is the official philosophy of Rome. And

1023
01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:20.760
<v Speaker 2>that's why the more traditional you get, the more hardcore

1024
01:04:22.039 --> 01:04:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Thomas they are, because they know they've read Attorney Patras

1025
01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:29.639
<v Speaker 2>and they realize that it just is just a rough road.

1026
01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:36.280
<v Speaker 2>When you're trying to sell Roman Catholics on quote Eastern theology,

1027
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:39.440
<v Speaker 2>they just it doesn't work. And so it's just a

1028
01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:42.239
<v Speaker 2>bunch of nonsense. It's all a bunch of competing positions.

1029
01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:46.719
<v Speaker 2>And that alone should tell you why would we have

1030
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:53.559
<v Speaker 2>infinite various ways of people experiencing God and being saved.

1031
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:56.480
<v Speaker 2>It would be the same experience of the uncreated light,

1032
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:59.000
<v Speaker 2>whether it's Moses or whether it's Basil, or whether it's Paul,

1033
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:02.679
<v Speaker 2>or whether it's recent saints in the Orthodox Church. That

1034
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:05.360
<v Speaker 2>alone should tell you that Orthodox he is the true

1035
01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:11.519
<v Speaker 2>Church and not cutting yourself with knives and talking to

1036
01:05:11.639 --> 01:05:14.360
<v Speaker 2>flying hosts and Jesus is your boyfriend and all this

1037
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:17.559
<v Speaker 2>crazy Fostina Kowalska stuff, That alone should tell you that

1038
01:05:17.559 --> 01:05:27.280
<v Speaker 2>it's not right. What's up? Oh three? Og Dasha made

1039
01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:32.159
<v Speaker 2>j soft. I think I'm just being the calm and cordial.

1040
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:34.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what this has to do with that.

1041
01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:35.639
<v Speaker 2>What's up?

1042
01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:35.880
<v Speaker 3>Man?

1043
01:05:37.159 --> 01:05:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Are you there? Let's talk God? Can you break down

1044
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:48.760
<v Speaker 2>the Son of Jerusalem and decree three that it's not semipalagian?

1045
01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:51.480
<v Speaker 2>So we don't have semi plagianism in the Orthodox Church.

1046
01:05:52.400 --> 01:05:55.760
<v Speaker 2>The West thinks that if you're not believing in operative

1047
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:59.960
<v Speaker 2>grace or you know what Augustine talks about, they think

1048
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:03.320
<v Speaker 2>it's semi pallagian. The Orthodox Church is always taught a

1049
01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:08.960
<v Speaker 2>synergy because it's a fundamental feature of human nature to

1050
01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:13.000
<v Speaker 2>have human will and energy, and to lose that energy

1051
01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:16.400
<v Speaker 2>or to have it supplanted would violate the teaching of

1052
01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:20.840
<v Speaker 2>the Sixth Council on human Nature fundamentally having at all

1053
01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:24.559
<v Speaker 2>times its own will and energy. So that means you

1054
01:06:24.599 --> 01:06:30.039
<v Speaker 2>can't have a supplanting and a monogism in conversion, because

1055
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:33.920
<v Speaker 2>that would be to override our human nature and energy.

1056
01:06:34.519 --> 01:06:37.239
<v Speaker 2>And you realized in that in Christology that would mean

1057
01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:42.039
<v Speaker 2>that the Monothelites and the mono energists were correct. You

1058
01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:49.000
<v Speaker 2>gonna umute, O three og? What's up, dude, O three og?

1059
01:06:49.119 --> 01:06:54.519
<v Speaker 2>You have to unmute man. All right, we'll move on.

1060
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:00.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't know there we go.

1061
01:07:01.320 --> 01:07:14.519
<v Speaker 14>I mean, yo, hey, Jay.

1062
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:17.719
<v Speaker 5>What's going on? How you doing? Pretty good?

1063
01:07:17.800 --> 01:07:18.239
<v Speaker 9>Pretty good?

1064
01:07:18.800 --> 01:07:19.679
<v Speaker 2>Quick question for you.

1065
01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:23.400
<v Speaker 5>I was watching the debate you had with Jake.

1066
01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:29.000
<v Speaker 22>The meta law foot worshiper or whatever, and I think

1067
01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:32.559
<v Speaker 22>it was during your second rebuttal, I think he tried

1068
01:07:32.599 --> 01:07:35.920
<v Speaker 22>to bring up Father Deacon and an ass paper, and

1069
01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:39.079
<v Speaker 22>I'm more than sure he was straw manning the position,

1070
01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:41.760
<v Speaker 22>but I wanted to know where I could get a

1071
01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:44.039
<v Speaker 22>copy of the paper to read. But it essentially he

1072
01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:49.360
<v Speaker 22>was trying to make an argument that all, like all positions.

1073
01:07:48.920 --> 01:07:51.480
<v Speaker 5>Are all world views, all all world views.

1074
01:07:51.280 --> 01:07:55.960
<v Speaker 22>Are fundamentally circular. And he tried to argue against tag

1075
01:07:56.199 --> 01:08:01.199
<v Speaker 22>and say that it's that it doesn't necessarily make sense

1076
01:08:01.239 --> 01:08:02.800
<v Speaker 22>for the orthodox position alone.

1077
01:08:04.519 --> 01:08:07.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't think Jake even understands what a transcendent argument is,

1078
01:08:07.920 --> 01:08:10.880
<v Speaker 2>so I don't even recall what he was trying to

1079
01:08:11.000 --> 01:08:14.079
<v Speaker 2>argue there. But you could get Father Deacon's paper by

1080
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:19.039
<v Speaker 2>just dming him or sending him a message. So let's see,

1081
01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:24.600
<v Speaker 2>he's on Twitter as Norwegian news, so I would just

1082
01:08:25.399 --> 01:08:27.239
<v Speaker 2>message him, you know, publicly. I don't know if he

1083
01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:28.960
<v Speaker 2>has his DMS on or not, but you could do

1084
01:08:29.000 --> 01:08:32.199
<v Speaker 2>message him to get a copy of that paper. Josiah,

1085
01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:43.079
<v Speaker 2>what's up? By the way, here is a twenty minute

1086
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:48.159
<v Speaker 2>video about PSA from a while back. Guys. Any of

1087
01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:51.760
<v Speaker 2>the Protestant you know, videos that we've had up for many,

1088
01:08:51.800 --> 01:08:54.840
<v Speaker 2>many years, any of the Calvinist lectures that we've done,

1089
01:08:56.399 --> 01:08:59.359
<v Speaker 2>you can go through those and it's gonna critique dsay.

1090
01:08:59.600 --> 01:09:01.199
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not trying to be rude. It's just like

1091
01:09:01.319 --> 01:09:06.199
<v Speaker 2>every time I do, somebody asked about PSA every time,

1092
01:09:07.279 --> 01:09:08.960
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just getting to the point where like I

1093
01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:12.039
<v Speaker 2>just don't even want to repeat the whole particular. I mean,

1094
01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:20.039
<v Speaker 2>I'll do it, I guess. But what's up, Josiah, you

1095
01:09:20.079 --> 01:09:24.800
<v Speaker 2>gotta unmute man, So y'all want to see this or here?

1096
01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:29.199
<v Speaker 2>This is what y'all are after. On my Only Feet's page,

1097
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:34.239
<v Speaker 2>there was some zoomers who were like, I can't believe

1098
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:37.680
<v Speaker 2>he did that. That's porn. Like if you think feet

1099
01:09:37.800 --> 01:09:39.880
<v Speaker 2>are sexual, you got to issue what's up?

1100
01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:41.760
<v Speaker 18>Okay, how's it going to, Jake?

1101
01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:42.840
<v Speaker 2>What's on your mind?

1102
01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:44.680
<v Speaker 13>Uh?

1103
01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:49.279
<v Speaker 23>Yeah, So I'm an atheist and watch a few of

1104
01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:51.680
<v Speaker 23>your debates I was just wondering, could you give like

1105
01:09:52.119 --> 01:09:55.720
<v Speaker 23>a brief recap of the transcendental argument for God?

1106
01:09:58.119 --> 01:10:03.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, any knowledge claim requires a certain set of categories

1107
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:06.399
<v Speaker 2>to be the case, to be the preconditions for the

1108
01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:11.560
<v Speaker 2>possibility of knowledge, and those categories require some kind of

1109
01:10:11.640 --> 01:10:16.920
<v Speaker 2>grounding and justification and some thing that makes them all

1110
01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:23.119
<v Speaker 2>cohere together. And that being is specifically the Christian God? Sure,

1111
01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:27.560
<v Speaker 2>and how do you know he exists? Though? By the

1112
01:10:27.640 --> 01:10:35.840
<v Speaker 2>transcendent argument is one example. I mean, you're saying that

1113
01:10:36.039 --> 01:10:36.520
<v Speaker 2>there has to.

1114
01:10:36.520 --> 01:10:39.439
<v Speaker 23>Be a justification for every belief, and for you, that

1115
01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:41.039
<v Speaker 23>justification is God.

1116
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:44.000
<v Speaker 5>But isn't that ob secular?

1117
01:10:45.159 --> 01:10:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? But I believe that every worldview at a base

1118
01:10:47.800 --> 01:10:57.119
<v Speaker 2>level is self self recurring or recursive. I mean, not

1119
01:10:57.279 --> 01:11:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the atheist worldview, though I would say it is. I mean,

1120
01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:03.359
<v Speaker 2>you could try to argue for self evident principles, but

1121
01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:07.239
<v Speaker 2>you're going to quickly fall into being self referencing.

1122
01:11:09.840 --> 01:11:10.640
<v Speaker 24>Okay, So.

1123
01:11:12.439 --> 01:11:16.560
<v Speaker 5>Give me or do you have like any examples.

1124
01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Or well, if you have an atheist worldview, I mean,

1125
01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:21.520
<v Speaker 2>are you saying then that you're a classical foundationals who

1126
01:11:21.520 --> 01:11:23.039
<v Speaker 2>believes in self evident principles?

1127
01:11:24.439 --> 01:11:25.800
<v Speaker 8>I don't know what that means to be honest.

1128
01:11:27.279 --> 01:11:29.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, if you don't believe that worldviews are at a

1129
01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:33.920
<v Speaker 2>base level self recursive or whatever, or circular at a

1130
01:11:33.960 --> 01:11:37.439
<v Speaker 2>paradigm level, then most likely you would believe that there

1131
01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:44.439
<v Speaker 2>are foundational self evident maxims or axioms. Yeah, okay, So

1132
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:47.359
<v Speaker 2>two problems with that. One is the criterion problem, which

1133
01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:50.319
<v Speaker 2>is that you can't have a knowledge claim without a

1134
01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:52.960
<v Speaker 2>criteria of knowledge. But if you have a criteria of knowledge,

1135
01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:55.079
<v Speaker 2>that's also a knowledge claim, So you'd have to solve

1136
01:11:55.119 --> 01:11:57.760
<v Speaker 2>the criteria problem. And also, if you believe in self

1137
01:11:57.800 --> 01:12:01.680
<v Speaker 2>evident principles, then you would have to have a standard

1138
01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:06.039
<v Speaker 2>or a benchmark by which you judge the self evident

1139
01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:08.039
<v Speaker 2>and the non self evident. But if you have a

1140
01:12:08.239 --> 01:12:12.159
<v Speaker 2>benchmark that's the prior category to judge those, then they're

1141
01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:14.760
<v Speaker 2>no longer self evident. So these are two variations of

1142
01:12:14.920 --> 01:12:16.359
<v Speaker 2>the problems of self evidence.

1143
01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:22.439
<v Speaker 8>Okay, but I mean, you know, I could say that.

1144
01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:26.199
<v Speaker 21>Gravity exists.

1145
01:12:26.960 --> 01:12:27.399
<v Speaker 12>How is that.

1146
01:12:28.920 --> 01:12:30.399
<v Speaker 5>Like? How does that not?

1147
01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:32.760
<v Speaker 23>How is that not a true statement.

1148
01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Like self evidently? Well, again, I could just go to

1149
01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:41.600
<v Speaker 2>the criteria problem. If you're gonna if you're gonna say

1150
01:12:41.680 --> 01:12:44.960
<v Speaker 2>that something just is the case it's first of all,

1151
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:47.720
<v Speaker 2>it's ad hoc. Why is that assertion of the thing

1152
01:12:47.840 --> 01:12:49.680
<v Speaker 2>that is self evident? How do we know that it's

1153
01:12:49.720 --> 01:12:53.239
<v Speaker 2>self evident? Because you need a criteria of knowledge to

1154
01:12:53.319 --> 01:12:56.239
<v Speaker 2>have knowledge claims. So if you're gonna start with that,

1155
01:12:56.479 --> 01:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>then what's the criteria of knowledge to let you that

1156
01:12:59.039 --> 01:13:00.520
<v Speaker 2>lets you know that that's self evident.

1157
01:13:02.279 --> 01:13:06.039
<v Speaker 23>It's the criteria of knowledge to know that gravity exists.

1158
01:13:06.560 --> 01:13:10.800
<v Speaker 2>That the assertion is self evident. You understand there's a

1159
01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:14.000
<v Speaker 2>difference between believing in gravity and the truth of the

1160
01:13:14.079 --> 01:13:17.560
<v Speaker 2>proposition that gravity is self evident. Those are two different things.

1161
01:13:21.880 --> 01:13:24.840
<v Speaker 23>Unfortunately, I don't understand what you're saying.

1162
01:13:26.119 --> 01:13:33.319
<v Speaker 2>So when I say the tree is brown, yeah, okay,

1163
01:13:33.640 --> 01:13:38.279
<v Speaker 2>that's an assertion, that's a knowledge claim that's different from

1164
01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:42.399
<v Speaker 2>the proposition itself having truth value. Is it true that

1165
01:13:42.640 --> 01:13:45.359
<v Speaker 2>the tree is brown? Are those higher order? It's two

1166
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:46.920
<v Speaker 2>different things. Do you understand that?

1167
01:13:48.039 --> 01:13:48.239
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

1168
01:13:48.520 --> 01:13:53.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay? So to say that gravity is self evident at

1169
01:13:53.239 --> 01:13:56.279
<v Speaker 2>the base level, that's an assertion about the external world

1170
01:13:56.359 --> 01:13:59.760
<v Speaker 2>and phenomena going on in the external world. On another level,

1171
01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:04.039
<v Speaker 2>there's an assumption that that's a universal truth claim that

1172
01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:07.000
<v Speaker 2>is the case, And so I'm asking how do we

1173
01:14:07.159 --> 01:14:10.199
<v Speaker 2>know that that is universally the case? Maybe it is,

1174
01:14:10.359 --> 01:14:12.960
<v Speaker 2>but on what basis? What's the criteria of knowledge to

1175
01:14:13.079 --> 01:14:13.279
<v Speaker 2>know that?

1176
01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:21.720
<v Speaker 23>So we know that that gravity is real because you know,

1177
01:14:21.800 --> 01:14:25.079
<v Speaker 23>we can run experiments and show objectives.

1178
01:14:25.159 --> 01:14:27.479
<v Speaker 2>So you're missing the point. The question is about the

1179
01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:32.039
<v Speaker 2>truth value the proposition itself, not whether gravity is going on.

1180
01:14:32.119 --> 01:14:32.560
<v Speaker 5>In the world.

1181
01:14:32.800 --> 01:14:35.960
<v Speaker 2>How do we know that that sentence meaningfully conveys a

1182
01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:57.520
<v Speaker 2>universal truth claim? No, did you say something because we

1183
01:14:57.560 --> 01:14:58.079
<v Speaker 2>couldn't hear you.

1184
01:14:59.359 --> 01:15:01.760
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I said, I know that.

1185
01:15:03.439 --> 01:15:06.159
<v Speaker 23>So the criteria for something being true is that it

1186
01:15:06.279 --> 01:15:08.680
<v Speaker 23>accurately reflect reality in my opinion.

1187
01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:11.399
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so that's true, that's your criteria. Fine, but how

1188
01:15:11.439 --> 01:15:13.359
<v Speaker 2>do we know that that is the right criterion?

1189
01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:18.760
<v Speaker 23>How do we know that something being true equals it

1190
01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:26.760
<v Speaker 23>accurately reflect reality? Yes, because I mean, how else would

1191
01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:28.039
<v Speaker 23>you tell that something is true?

1192
01:15:28.680 --> 01:15:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, just saying that I don't see it any other

1193
01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:34.119
<v Speaker 2>way isn't a justification. In fact, that's a fallacy. That's

1194
01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:38.279
<v Speaker 2>a fallacy of incredulity. Yeah, you're right, you're right.

1195
01:15:40.600 --> 01:15:43.479
<v Speaker 23>Well, I guess then you're kind of going into like

1196
01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:48.279
<v Speaker 23>basically saying that words don't necessarily have a meaning and

1197
01:15:48.359 --> 01:15:51.399
<v Speaker 23>different people have like different interpretations of words.

1198
01:15:51.520 --> 01:15:53.439
<v Speaker 2>Maybe, I mean, I mean, you can go into all

1199
01:15:53.479 --> 01:15:56.319
<v Speaker 2>these different directions because I'm just doing variations on what's

1200
01:15:56.359 --> 01:15:57.560
<v Speaker 2>called the criteria problem.

1201
01:16:01.079 --> 01:16:04.399
<v Speaker 23>Yeah, but again, you know, you're you're kind of going

1202
01:16:04.439 --> 01:16:07.880
<v Speaker 23>into semantics, specially saying different things.

1203
01:16:08.359 --> 01:16:19.439
<v Speaker 2>Epistemology is not semantics. There are two different things. Anyway, Look,

1204
01:16:19.600 --> 01:16:21.600
<v Speaker 2>go check out the difference between those things. Not trying

1205
01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:23.680
<v Speaker 2>to be a jerk, just saying, like, just go take

1206
01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:26.159
<v Speaker 2>a look at those distinctions and maybe that'll help with

1207
01:16:26.920 --> 01:16:28.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're welcome to come back. We can continue

1208
01:16:28.800 --> 01:16:43.840
<v Speaker 2>that discourse a victor, what's up? Victor? What's up?

1209
01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:48.319
<v Speaker 18>Yeah?

1210
01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:48.800
<v Speaker 5>What's up? Man?

1211
01:16:48.880 --> 01:16:49.359
<v Speaker 17>Can you hear me?

1212
01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:50.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? What's on your mind?

1213
01:16:51.560 --> 01:16:52.640
<v Speaker 18>First of all, I'm a big.

1214
01:16:52.600 --> 01:16:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Fan of what you do.

1215
01:16:53.520 --> 01:16:57.079
<v Speaker 25>I mean, watching you a lot. I've had I had

1216
01:16:57.159 --> 01:17:00.840
<v Speaker 25>two questions. I have a cow of his friend who

1217
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:02.239
<v Speaker 25>I'm kind of in the stalemate with.

1218
01:17:03.880 --> 01:17:05.000
<v Speaker 18>We like arguing with each other.

1219
01:17:05.960 --> 01:17:12.199
<v Speaker 2>Are you all playing life chess? But he's check mated

1220
01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:12.760
<v Speaker 2>you in life?

1221
01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:13.720
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

1222
01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:18.079
<v Speaker 25>I just like we like debating, and we haven't been

1223
01:17:18.159 --> 01:17:20.840
<v Speaker 25>able to get past this point, which is the subject

1224
01:17:20.920 --> 01:17:21.960
<v Speaker 25>of predestination.

1225
01:17:25.159 --> 01:17:28.279
<v Speaker 2>Like, okay, I would say so I have two talks

1226
01:17:28.359 --> 01:17:31.199
<v Speaker 2>on my clips channel that are about three hours each,

1227
01:17:31.439 --> 01:17:34.359
<v Speaker 2>and I would say just go watch those and take notes.

1228
01:17:35.119 --> 01:17:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Not trying to be rude, it's just I don't I

1229
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:39.760
<v Speaker 2>can't rehearse the same thing over and over and over. Cleo,

1230
01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:50.520
<v Speaker 2>what's up? Guys? If you go to if you have

1231
01:17:50.680 --> 01:17:57.439
<v Speaker 2>questions about Calvinism and PSA, remember all you gotta do

1232
01:17:57.640 --> 01:18:00.720
<v Speaker 2>is go over here to my clips channel. It's called

1233
01:18:01.439 --> 01:18:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Jade Are Livestreams and Absurdities, And if you scroll down

1234
01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:15.680
<v Speaker 2>you will see two talks right here about Calvinism Calvinism

1235
01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Refuted Part one, Calvinism Refuted Part two. This will cover

1236
01:18:20.359 --> 01:18:25.840
<v Speaker 2>all of those questions regarding PSA election predestination. I've got

1237
01:18:25.920 --> 01:18:29.399
<v Speaker 2>other talks about Augustinianism original sin on my main channel.

1238
01:18:29.439 --> 01:18:32.680
<v Speaker 2>Some guys, you can go check those out and take notes,

1239
01:18:32.960 --> 01:18:34.920
<v Speaker 2>and those should answer your questions. Cleio, what's up? Man?

1240
01:18:36.880 --> 01:18:37.239
<v Speaker 5>Hey Jay?

1241
01:18:37.279 --> 01:18:39.880
<v Speaker 24>Thanks for shaking my call. I think your your patients

1242
01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:41.840
<v Speaker 24>in Greece doing this is very commendable.

1243
01:18:43.560 --> 01:18:45.439
<v Speaker 2>Hold on, how do you come to that conclusion? Because

1244
01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:47.720
<v Speaker 2>I thought I'm the meanest man on the internet, which

1245
01:18:47.760 --> 01:18:48.159
<v Speaker 2>one is it?

1246
01:18:49.159 --> 01:18:51.800
<v Speaker 5>I never said that I'm joking.

1247
01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:52.479
<v Speaker 8>I say that.

1248
01:18:53.680 --> 01:18:56.399
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I'm pretty brand new to you.

1249
01:18:57.079 --> 01:18:58.800
<v Speaker 24>One of my close friends is a big fan of you,

1250
01:18:58.880 --> 01:19:01.520
<v Speaker 24>so he's been showing me some stuff. But I kind

1251
01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:03.279
<v Speaker 24>of got into the word about like nine months ago,

1252
01:19:03.760 --> 01:19:07.159
<v Speaker 24>and I pretty much take Christianity at face value. With

1253
01:19:07.199 --> 01:19:09.960
<v Speaker 24>like what I read in scripture, it seems like a

1254
01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:14.039
<v Speaker 24>pretty simple religion, right, It's like love your neighbor, except

1255
01:19:14.119 --> 01:19:16.399
<v Speaker 24>to Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God.

1256
01:19:17.119 --> 01:19:19.840
<v Speaker 2>And like, well, I mean that sounds like the basics.

1257
01:19:19.960 --> 01:19:22.279
<v Speaker 2>But no, I don't think that the religion is just

1258
01:19:22.439 --> 01:19:26.560
<v Speaker 2>some simple thing of LCD what was common the nominator stuff.

1259
01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:29.039
<v Speaker 2>That's usually I'm not fussing with you, I'm just saying

1260
01:19:29.039 --> 01:19:32.960
<v Speaker 2>that's usually what evangelicals say. It's like, oh, Christiana is

1261
01:19:33.039 --> 01:19:35.359
<v Speaker 2>just you know, believe in Jesus and you know it

1262
01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:36.000
<v Speaker 2>be nice.

1263
01:19:37.520 --> 01:19:42.560
<v Speaker 24>Yeah, it's it's what I know that this is uh,

1264
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:44.720
<v Speaker 24>kind of scoffed that, but it's kind of what people

1265
01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:46.520
<v Speaker 24>like about what I call like non.

1266
01:19:46.479 --> 01:19:49.279
<v Speaker 5>Denominational and yeah, you know, but I mean it's.

1267
01:19:49.039 --> 01:19:52.119
<v Speaker 24>It's it's understandable how someone comes to that conclusion. I mean,

1268
01:19:52.119 --> 01:19:54.359
<v Speaker 24>you have versus in the Bible like James two chapter

1269
01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:57.279
<v Speaker 24>James Chapter two, verse eight. If you really keep the

1270
01:19:57.359 --> 01:19:59.560
<v Speaker 24>royal law found in scripture, love your neighbor, it's yourself.

1271
01:19:59.359 --> 01:20:01.319
<v Speaker 5>You're doing right. I mean, like it's pretty simple.

1272
01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but that but that doesn't doesn't say that that's

1273
01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:06.640
<v Speaker 2>all there is to the religion. I mean, you're you're

1274
01:20:06.880 --> 01:20:10.039
<v Speaker 2>expected to you know in John six, if you eat

1275
01:20:10.119 --> 01:20:12.560
<v Speaker 2>my flesh, you have life if you If you don't,

1276
01:20:12.600 --> 01:20:16.720
<v Speaker 2>you don't. So you're expected to participate in the Eucharist

1277
01:20:16.760 --> 01:20:17.279
<v Speaker 2>for example.

1278
01:20:18.319 --> 01:20:21.640
<v Speaker 24>Yeah, yeah, And I'm over simplifying it. But I'm going

1279
01:20:21.720 --> 01:20:24.680
<v Speaker 24>to get to maybe a better argument in a second here.

1280
01:20:24.800 --> 01:20:28.960
<v Speaker 24>So when Jesus was, you know, going around Juda in

1281
01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:31.399
<v Speaker 24>Galilee with his disciples, I think he was preaching like

1282
01:20:31.479 --> 01:20:33.880
<v Speaker 24>a pretty I don't want to say simple, but we're

1283
01:20:33.920 --> 01:20:36.000
<v Speaker 24>not gonna a better term in a simple message of

1284
01:20:36.079 --> 01:20:39.159
<v Speaker 24>you know, like loving your neighbor, like not putting the

1285
01:20:39.239 --> 01:20:41.439
<v Speaker 24>rich over the or anything like that.

1286
01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:46.720
<v Speaker 2>So again I have to disagree because there are places

1287
01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:49.399
<v Speaker 2>where he says those things, like the Sermon on the Mount,

1288
01:20:49.840 --> 01:20:53.239
<v Speaker 2>but there are countless places where he also goes into

1289
01:20:53.359 --> 01:20:57.000
<v Speaker 2>great depth about the Old Testament prophecies. He goes into

1290
01:20:57.039 --> 01:21:02.760
<v Speaker 2>great depth with his parables. You know that to me

1291
01:21:04.439 --> 01:21:07.239
<v Speaker 2>does does not jibe with the idea that because there

1292
01:21:07.279 --> 01:21:12.239
<v Speaker 2>are some simple statements, therefore the entire thing is therefore simple.

1293
01:21:12.359 --> 01:21:13.840
<v Speaker 2>So that's like a parts whole fallacy.

1294
01:21:14.720 --> 01:21:16.960
<v Speaker 5>Oh yeah, I think that's that's totally fair.

1295
01:21:18.760 --> 01:21:20.279
<v Speaker 24>But I guess the way I see, you know, he's

1296
01:21:20.319 --> 01:21:26.800
<v Speaker 24>talking to these like illiterate like citizens, you know, preaching

1297
01:21:27.239 --> 01:21:31.560
<v Speaker 24>whatever it is he was preaching. But like, obviously after

1298
01:21:31.680 --> 01:21:33.159
<v Speaker 24>all of these teachings when he's.

1299
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:35.920
<v Speaker 5>Tramp, so you obviously came to Earth to save these people,

1300
01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:38.039
<v Speaker 5>these people that he was teaching to be the intention

1301
01:21:38.159 --> 01:21:39.159
<v Speaker 5>of saving, one could assume.

1302
01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:42.199
<v Speaker 24>So it wasn't until you know, after his death at

1303
01:21:42.199 --> 01:21:44.520
<v Speaker 24>the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church kind of you.

1304
01:21:44.560 --> 01:21:46.960
<v Speaker 5>Know, came to be and whatnot. And I just like

1305
01:21:47.039 --> 01:21:49.199
<v Speaker 5>my biggest issue, so.

1306
01:21:49.640 --> 01:21:52.319
<v Speaker 2>We don't think that after his death the Orthodox Church

1307
01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:55.640
<v Speaker 2>came to be. So we think that Apostolic succession is

1308
01:21:55.680 --> 01:21:58.039
<v Speaker 2>the teaching of the New Testament, and so the church

1309
01:21:58.199 --> 01:22:02.560
<v Speaker 2>is founded in Matthew sixteen when he talks about the

1310
01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:05.399
<v Speaker 2>giving them the keys and you know, the ability to

1311
01:22:05.439 --> 01:22:07.840
<v Speaker 2>remit and retain sins at the end of John and

1312
01:22:07.920 --> 01:22:10.920
<v Speaker 2>then you get the statement that the institution of baptism

1313
01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:13.640
<v Speaker 2>in Matthew twenty eight and then you get the empowering

1314
01:22:13.720 --> 01:22:17.000
<v Speaker 2>of the church at Pentecosanacts two. So I'm not sure

1315
01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:19.920
<v Speaker 2>you got the idea that the Orthodox Catholic Church is

1316
01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:23.199
<v Speaker 2>founded after where you send the New Testament or after

1317
01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:24.680
<v Speaker 2>his death. Maybe I'm misunderstood you.

1318
01:22:27.000 --> 01:22:28.920
<v Speaker 24>I mean, if you look it up on Google, I

1319
01:22:28.960 --> 01:22:31.000
<v Speaker 24>think it said like the Catholic Church starts some time

1320
01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:32.079
<v Speaker 24>in the first century.

1321
01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:33.920
<v Speaker 5>But you know, maybe I'm wrong.

1322
01:22:34.439 --> 01:22:37.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean Google is not going to be like,

1323
01:22:37.640 --> 01:22:40.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're not under Pope Google, right, So right,

1324
01:22:41.520 --> 01:22:44.840
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church, is who put

1325
01:22:44.920 --> 01:22:47.960
<v Speaker 2>the books of the Bible together, so you can't you

1326
01:22:48.039 --> 01:22:49.520
<v Speaker 2>can't get Bible without church.

1327
01:22:50.439 --> 01:22:53.119
<v Speaker 24>Yeah, I'll be the first to admit you you're a

1328
01:22:53.159 --> 01:22:55.560
<v Speaker 24>lot more wise in this than me, who picked it

1329
01:22:55.640 --> 01:22:56.600
<v Speaker 24>the Bible nine months ago.

1330
01:22:56.920 --> 01:22:58.079
<v Speaker 5>I'm still like learning a lot.

1331
01:22:58.119 --> 01:23:01.079
<v Speaker 24>But I guess my question meant because it seems to

1332
01:23:01.159 --> 01:23:04.800
<v Speaker 24>me that a lot of these traditions that Orthodoxy claims

1333
01:23:04.840 --> 01:23:07.600
<v Speaker 24>to be, like the true path of Salvation sudn't have

1334
01:23:07.800 --> 01:23:11.880
<v Speaker 24>been achieved by those that Jesus was preaching to in

1335
01:23:12.000 --> 01:23:13.640
<v Speaker 24>Galilee and Judea and whatnot.

1336
01:23:13.840 --> 01:23:15.119
<v Speaker 5>So were they not saved.

1337
01:23:16.840 --> 01:23:18.359
<v Speaker 2>So again, I don't know why it would come to

1338
01:23:18.399 --> 01:23:23.439
<v Speaker 2>that conclusion, because, for example, Jesus himself attended synagogue, attended

1339
01:23:23.479 --> 01:23:28.239
<v Speaker 2>liturgical worship, attended normative Holy days and practices and fasts

1340
01:23:28.319 --> 01:23:33.680
<v Speaker 2>and the apostles. Much of that goes into the first

1341
01:23:33.720 --> 01:23:36.119
<v Speaker 2>century Church when it is set up. So we have

1342
01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:39.680
<v Speaker 2>fast days, we have Easter, we have Pasca.

1343
01:23:39.399 --> 01:23:39.680
<v Speaker 5>We have.

1344
01:23:41.159 --> 01:23:43.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, these celebrations. We have a divine liturgy. We

1345
01:23:43.680 --> 01:23:47.520
<v Speaker 2>have imagery like the Old Testament Temple had. So there's

1346
01:23:47.560 --> 01:23:51.279
<v Speaker 2>a direct continuity between the Temple and synagogue worship service

1347
01:23:51.439 --> 01:23:54.880
<v Speaker 2>and the Orthodox Church's worship service, even things like imagery

1348
01:23:54.960 --> 01:23:59.840
<v Speaker 2>and relics. So no, I mean even the Old Testament

1349
01:24:00.039 --> 01:24:05.159
<v Speaker 2>add baptisms that had ceremonies, that has many things that

1350
01:24:05.239 --> 01:24:07.520
<v Speaker 2>continue into the New Testament tradition. So I think that

1351
01:24:07.640 --> 01:24:11.319
<v Speaker 2>if you think about Jesus himself, Jesus himself worshiped the

1352
01:24:11.399 --> 01:24:15.279
<v Speaker 2>Father throughout his whole life in a liturgical way. And

1353
01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:18.720
<v Speaker 2>that's because it's Jesus that gave the Old Testament law

1354
01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:21.560
<v Speaker 2>and worship to Moses, and so he's the one that

1355
01:24:21.680 --> 01:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>has the authority to say this is fulfilled. Because all

1356
01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:28.479
<v Speaker 2>of those things pointed to him, and so when he

1357
01:24:28.600 --> 01:24:33.960
<v Speaker 2>sets up apostles to guide and establish his church, they

1358
01:24:34.119 --> 01:24:37.960
<v Speaker 2>also have authority to make judgments to bind into loose

1359
01:24:38.119 --> 01:24:40.319
<v Speaker 2>in regard to what the church will and won't do.

1360
01:24:40.439 --> 01:24:43.239
<v Speaker 2>That's why you see in Acts fifteen they have a council,

1361
01:24:43.439 --> 01:24:46.600
<v Speaker 2>and so counsels become normative for the church, and the

1362
01:24:46.680 --> 01:24:49.199
<v Speaker 2>earliest councils of the church teach the same thing to

1363
01:24:49.239 --> 01:24:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox Church esys today. There's no deviations there.

1364
01:24:53.319 --> 01:24:57.760
<v Speaker 24>Okay, So you would assume then that if the people

1365
01:24:57.800 --> 01:25:00.199
<v Speaker 24>that he taught to were saved and they were like

1366
01:25:00.279 --> 01:25:03.039
<v Speaker 24>living in practice, how Orthodox live today.

1367
01:25:03.560 --> 01:25:07.399
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean not identically, because in Redemptive History, his

1368
01:25:07.640 --> 01:25:10.800
<v Speaker 2>preaching to the Jews is prior to his zephyl resurrection,

1369
01:25:10.920 --> 01:25:13.079
<v Speaker 2>so they don't have the full message yet. In fact,

1370
01:25:13.119 --> 01:25:15.159
<v Speaker 2>it's not until Luke twenty four where it says that

1371
01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:19.560
<v Speaker 2>he opened the apostles eyes to see and understand everything

1372
01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:23.039
<v Speaker 2>about him in the Old Testament scriptures. So even the

1373
01:25:23.119 --> 01:25:26.439
<v Speaker 2>apostles got glimpses and they got pieces of it, but

1374
01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:29.399
<v Speaker 2>they didn't really understand until after his resurrection. Hence Luke

1375
01:25:29.439 --> 01:25:32.239
<v Speaker 2>twenty four literally says that Jesus opened their eyes to

1376
01:25:32.359 --> 01:25:33.439
<v Speaker 2>understand the Old Testament.

1377
01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:38.720
<v Speaker 24>Okay, I guess my final question I want to leave

1378
01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:40.720
<v Speaker 24>off with is getting that there's a place in heaven

1379
01:25:40.800 --> 01:25:43.079
<v Speaker 24>for people that accepts love and read scripture like love

1380
01:25:43.159 --> 01:25:46.840
<v Speaker 24>Jesus and reads scripture, but haven't been exposed to I mean,

1381
01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:50.680
<v Speaker 24>you know, I have a friend who exposed me to Orthodoxy, right,

1382
01:25:50.800 --> 01:25:52.399
<v Speaker 24>A lot of people don't have that blessing.

1383
01:25:52.960 --> 01:25:56.199
<v Speaker 2>Perhaps, Yeah, I think Jesus for those people, well, I

1384
01:25:56.239 --> 01:25:58.279
<v Speaker 2>think Jesus is very clear that to who much is given,

1385
01:25:58.399 --> 01:26:00.720
<v Speaker 2>much is required. And you know, we don't really have

1386
01:26:00.960 --> 01:26:05.600
<v Speaker 2>the means and the capabilities of judging people who you know,

1387
01:26:05.800 --> 01:26:08.840
<v Speaker 2>have limited exposure. That's you know, we leave that to God,

1388
01:26:08.880 --> 01:26:12.239
<v Speaker 2>and God is a merciful just judge. So what we

1389
01:26:12.399 --> 01:26:16.239
<v Speaker 2>do know is that we tell people to enter the arc. So, hey, Jamie,

1390
01:26:17.239 --> 01:26:19.800
<v Speaker 2>did you met me? A double shot? Thank you? But

1391
01:26:19.880 --> 01:26:24.720
<v Speaker 2>those are great questions. Appreciate you coming on. Man, I

1392
01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:29.239
<v Speaker 2>forget this guy, William Die, I forget what you're What

1393
01:26:29.359 --> 01:26:35.359
<v Speaker 2>were you on here about? I forgot remind me? Hello, Hey,

1394
01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:36.479
<v Speaker 2>what's on your mind?

1395
01:26:38.399 --> 01:26:39.239
<v Speaker 5>Quick question here?

1396
01:26:39.439 --> 01:26:46.000
<v Speaker 6>So regarding Mormons, what would be the correct philosophical refutation

1397
01:26:46.359 --> 01:26:50.960
<v Speaker 6>if they would say that all intelligences are eternal.

1398
01:26:51.640 --> 01:26:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, that would be multiple eternal entities. That would be polytheism.

1399
01:26:57.920 --> 01:27:03.319
<v Speaker 6>What if they say that it really is not because intelligence,

1400
01:27:03.359 --> 01:27:04.239
<v Speaker 6>that there are not gods.

1401
01:27:05.479 --> 01:27:09.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well you can define gods in a different way.

1402
01:27:09.279 --> 01:27:11.640
<v Speaker 2>But they actually do believe in multiple gods because they

1403
01:27:11.720 --> 01:27:15.960
<v Speaker 2>believe that Adam is a man who can become like

1404
01:27:16.079 --> 01:27:18.359
<v Speaker 2>God the Father, as can we all. So they actually

1405
01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>do believe in polytheism. Their view of the Trinity is

1406
01:27:20.840 --> 01:27:24.159
<v Speaker 2>three gods in the sense of three distinct beings who

1407
01:27:24.239 --> 01:27:26.199
<v Speaker 2>were at one time human beings who evolved into it.

1408
01:27:26.319 --> 01:27:29.119
<v Speaker 2>So they do believe in polytheism even from that vantage point.

1409
01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:36.600
<v Speaker 2>But say that there are multiple eternal, uncreated minds, that's

1410
01:27:36.920 --> 01:27:39.319
<v Speaker 2>that's polytheism. How would it, in other words, that they

1411
01:27:39.359 --> 01:27:40.479
<v Speaker 2>would have to explain how it's not.

1412
01:27:42.199 --> 01:27:44.800
<v Speaker 26>Well, I mean the guy that you debated, Robert Gerd,

1413
01:27:45.319 --> 01:27:47.479
<v Speaker 26>actually admits of being a polytheist.

1414
01:27:47.920 --> 01:27:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, there you are, So, I mean, the religion of

1415
01:27:50.680 --> 01:27:52.920
<v Speaker 2>the Bible is not polytheistic. In fact, there's quite a

1416
01:27:52.960 --> 01:27:57.359
<v Speaker 2>bit that's a warfare against polytheism. Sense I mean, I

1417
01:27:57.399 --> 01:28:00.000
<v Speaker 2>mean Mormonism is just like that stupid but whatever, go ahead.

1418
01:28:00.760 --> 01:28:04.680
<v Speaker 26>Understand, But so what I should I go after the

1419
01:28:04.800 --> 01:28:10.399
<v Speaker 26>fact in terms of epistemology that if you have multiple intelligences,

1420
01:28:10.479 --> 01:28:13.439
<v Speaker 26>there's it's actually impossible for you that to ground anything.

1421
01:28:15.199 --> 01:28:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you read Agentes of St. Anthonasius, his critique

1422
01:28:18.800 --> 01:28:23.079
<v Speaker 2>of polytheism is that it's chaos essentially, and the gods

1423
01:28:23.119 --> 01:28:27.359
<v Speaker 2>fight with each other, they disagree. You know, there's multiple uh,

1424
01:28:27.760 --> 01:28:32.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, competing forces in the universe. Uh, and conceivably

1425
01:28:32.119 --> 01:28:34.239
<v Speaker 2>at odds with one another. I mean, just think about it.

1426
01:28:34.319 --> 01:28:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Mormons think Jesus and Lucifer are brothers fighting each other.

1427
01:28:37.840 --> 01:28:41.279
<v Speaker 2>So I mean, yeah, I would fall prey to Saint

1428
01:28:41.319 --> 01:28:48.439
<v Speaker 2>Anthonacious critique and adgentes absolutely. Okay, by the way, Uh,

1429
01:28:49.199 --> 01:28:51.960
<v Speaker 2>if you've not read that, it is a great apologetic piece,

1430
01:28:52.199 --> 01:28:55.840
<v Speaker 2>and you'll notice that although he's not presenting tag, what

1431
01:28:56.039 --> 01:28:59.319
<v Speaker 2>Athenasius does is that he does an internal critique of

1432
01:29:00.199 --> 01:29:04.119
<v Speaker 2>and world views. And you know, it's a classic of apologetics.

1433
01:29:05.840 --> 01:29:08.359
<v Speaker 2>And that's you know what we do to Jake, what's up, man?

1434
01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:14.880
<v Speaker 2>We were just talking about me. Jim, Bob and I

1435
01:29:14.880 --> 01:29:16.439
<v Speaker 2>are going to do a stream, by the way, about

1436
01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:21.319
<v Speaker 2>Mormon stuff in the near future because we've had there's

1437
01:29:21.359 --> 01:29:25.279
<v Speaker 2>been this dust up of Mormons popping up right all

1438
01:29:25.319 --> 01:29:29.600
<v Speaker 2>over Twitter, and supposedly they have a couple apologists out there.

1439
01:29:30.640 --> 01:29:32.760
<v Speaker 2>And Jim, Jim Bob and I were going back and

1440
01:29:32.840 --> 01:29:36.880
<v Speaker 2>forth about all the kind of wild stuff and Mormonism

1441
01:29:36.960 --> 01:29:39.760
<v Speaker 2>that you don't usually hear talked about, because Mormons do

1442
01:29:39.840 --> 01:29:43.520
<v Speaker 2>this thing where they like they eat, they like butter

1443
01:29:43.640 --> 01:29:46.920
<v Speaker 2>you up, you know, like scientologists before they tell you

1444
01:29:47.039 --> 01:29:50.319
<v Speaker 2>the heavy stuff, right, and then after you've been involved

1445
01:29:50.399 --> 01:29:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and you've got the feelies for a while from praying

1446
01:29:52.880 --> 01:29:57.960
<v Speaker 2>their goober prayer. Oh, by the way, we believe in

1447
01:29:58.039 --> 01:30:00.840
<v Speaker 2>sci fi space opera about bout start lactic goal lords

1448
01:30:00.880 --> 01:30:03.640
<v Speaker 2>of Colob stuff. And I'm not joking when I say

1449
01:30:03.680 --> 01:30:06.720
<v Speaker 2>that they literally believe in Lords of Colob. The people

1450
01:30:06.760 --> 01:30:10.479
<v Speaker 2>that did Bossarga lact to Go were Mormons. So they

1451
01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:13.640
<v Speaker 2>believe in eternal matter. They believe in They have Masonic

1452
01:30:13.840 --> 01:30:18.760
<v Speaker 2>temple ripped off Masonic temple ceremonies for their endowments, and

1453
01:30:18.840 --> 01:30:22.159
<v Speaker 2>ceremonies Jesus and Lous for our brothers. They believe the

1454
01:30:22.279 --> 01:30:25.800
<v Speaker 2>lucifer enlightened Man in the garden. They believe that Bigfoot

1455
01:30:25.880 --> 01:30:29.000
<v Speaker 2>is Cain. I am not kidding. Many of them still do.

1456
01:30:29.640 --> 01:30:35.319
<v Speaker 2>The intellect is eternal matters. Eternal. Black people are the

1457
01:30:35.439 --> 01:30:38.640
<v Speaker 2>creations of the bad God or that they were punished

1458
01:30:38.640 --> 01:30:42.800
<v Speaker 2>in the pre existing state, their fallen entities, and that's

1459
01:30:42.800 --> 01:30:45.560
<v Speaker 2>why they're black people. They have magic underwear. They believe

1460
01:30:45.640 --> 01:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>that God the Father was a human being who achieved godhood.

1461
01:30:50.960 --> 01:30:53.680
<v Speaker 2>And note that when they try to be a humanists

1462
01:30:53.680 --> 01:30:56.840
<v Speaker 2>and talk to you like, oh, you believe in deification,

1463
01:30:57.079 --> 01:30:59.880
<v Speaker 2>so do we. They don't believe what we believe. They

1464
01:31:00.119 --> 01:31:06.399
<v Speaker 2>believe in the Lords of col Ob space sci fi

1465
01:31:06.840 --> 01:31:12.479
<v Speaker 2>star trek shit. I mean, it's just crazy, dude, and

1466
01:31:12.640 --> 01:31:17.880
<v Speaker 2>that's just part of the magic of more. Jake, what's up?

1467
01:31:20.159 --> 01:31:20.840
<v Speaker 5>Hey? What's up?

1468
01:31:20.960 --> 01:31:21.119
<v Speaker 14>Jay?

1469
01:31:23.119 --> 01:31:27.960
<v Speaker 27>I'm an Orthodox inquirer right now, I'm god willing going

1470
01:31:28.000 --> 01:31:33.039
<v Speaker 27>to start my catechiss after Easter. But there's kind of

1471
01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:36.159
<v Speaker 27>two things I was wondering if you could help me

1472
01:31:36.239 --> 01:31:40.439
<v Speaker 27>out answer them before I'd become a cate Cuban.

1473
01:31:43.439 --> 01:31:45.159
<v Speaker 2>You want to know how to get to colob Is.

1474
01:31:48.680 --> 01:31:50.760
<v Speaker 2>First of all, space ax is going to have to

1475
01:31:50.880 --> 01:31:56.279
<v Speaker 2>create some kind of I don't know, like traveling space

1476
01:31:56.439 --> 01:32:00.760
<v Speaker 2>church that can fly to co Ob. So probably when

1477
01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:05.640
<v Speaker 2>Elon converts to Mormon, we can solve this problem. Go ahead.

1478
01:32:10.319 --> 01:32:15.039
<v Speaker 28>I was I haven't really gotten many good answers on

1479
01:32:15.920 --> 01:32:21.119
<v Speaker 28>why bishops cannot be married in the Orthodox Church, and

1480
01:32:21.159 --> 01:32:23.039
<v Speaker 28>I haven't had an opportunity.

1481
01:32:22.479 --> 01:32:24.880
<v Speaker 2>To talk to my priests about I mean, it's a

1482
01:32:24.960 --> 01:32:28.680
<v Speaker 2>tradition that developed on the basis of needs of the time, because,

1483
01:32:29.800 --> 01:32:35.279
<v Speaker 2>for example, bishops constantly have to do administrative stuff and

1484
01:32:35.479 --> 01:32:40.039
<v Speaker 2>travel to various parishes. In the ancient and medieval world,

1485
01:32:40.079 --> 01:32:42.520
<v Speaker 2>that was very difficult for a person to do with

1486
01:32:42.680 --> 01:32:46.439
<v Speaker 2>family and children, and so it became easier from a

1487
01:32:46.520 --> 01:32:50.439
<v Speaker 2>practical perspective for the Church to draw bishops from the monasteries.

1488
01:32:51.119 --> 01:32:54.000
<v Speaker 2>But and this might be controversial, I'm sure that there's

1489
01:32:54.079 --> 01:32:56.079
<v Speaker 2>canons that have been laid down. I mean, there's nothing

1490
01:32:56.159 --> 01:33:02.239
<v Speaker 2>inherently technically wrong with a bishop, like in cases having

1491
01:33:02.319 --> 01:33:05.039
<v Speaker 2>a wife is just not the norm. But I mean

1492
01:33:05.119 --> 01:33:07.680
<v Speaker 2>some of the apostles had wives, so I don't think

1493
01:33:07.760 --> 01:33:09.119
<v Speaker 2>that there's anything inherently wrong with that.

1494
01:33:10.039 --> 01:33:14.640
<v Speaker 11>I think there are some mettestations of married bishop in

1495
01:33:14.760 --> 01:33:19.199
<v Speaker 11>Russia to the sixteenth century, but yeah, in general, they

1496
01:33:19.239 --> 01:33:22.560
<v Speaker 11>were john from the monastery. It's also tied to the

1497
01:33:22.720 --> 01:33:26.880
<v Speaker 11>development and the arise as a monastery as a more

1498
01:33:26.960 --> 01:33:32.439
<v Speaker 11>important institution as the Early Church. But yeah, technically, I

1499
01:33:32.520 --> 01:33:37.079
<v Speaker 11>mean it wouldn't be canonical, but it's not dogmatic at

1500
01:33:37.159 --> 01:33:37.439
<v Speaker 11>some point.

1501
01:33:37.520 --> 01:33:40.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a good way to put it, okay.

1502
01:33:41.960 --> 01:33:49.439
<v Speaker 28>And then my second question was regarding well student, I

1503
01:33:49.640 --> 01:33:55.640
<v Speaker 28>forgot it. It's something to do with bishops and being married.

1504
01:33:56.039 --> 01:33:58.119
<v Speaker 28>But I appreciate what you.

1505
01:33:58.399 --> 01:34:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah's cool, that's right, think about go you know, you

1506
01:34:00.680 --> 01:34:01.840
<v Speaker 2>can think about it and come back in if you

1507
01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:05.840
<v Speaker 2>don't too, if you remember it. What is the relationship

1508
01:34:05.960 --> 01:34:09.359
<v Speaker 2>of Colob to Earth? So I want to bring you

1509
01:34:09.760 --> 01:34:12.199
<v Speaker 2>I enjoyed Battlestar Galacta. I have to say, I mean

1510
01:34:12.239 --> 01:34:14.279
<v Speaker 2>this is like you know, nerdship from ten years ago,

1511
01:34:14.439 --> 01:34:17.239
<v Speaker 2>fifteen years ago. But it was a fun series. I mean,

1512
01:34:17.399 --> 01:34:19.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, it wasn't like maybe this was a two thousands.

1513
01:34:19.960 --> 01:34:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Maybe we're already like twenty years from Battlestar Galactica. But uh,

1514
01:34:26.560 --> 01:34:30.319
<v Speaker 2>I've never actually looked at the Mormon mythology that they

1515
01:34:30.479 --> 01:34:31.720
<v Speaker 2>believe about Colob.

1516
01:34:31.800 --> 01:34:36.079
<v Speaker 13>So here's some goober a video on Colob and the Earth.

1517
01:34:36.880 --> 01:34:41.279
<v Speaker 13>A very interesting quote from Brigham Young that I think

1518
01:34:41.439 --> 01:34:46.199
<v Speaker 13>shed's light onto the possibility that the Earth was created

1519
01:34:46.479 --> 01:34:50.600
<v Speaker 13>first near onto Colob let's look at that and see

1520
01:34:50.640 --> 01:34:51.840
<v Speaker 13>the scriptural evidence.

1521
01:34:52.520 --> 01:34:54.720
<v Speaker 2>I guess if you like the Dune universe, you would

1522
01:34:54.800 --> 01:34:56.840
<v Speaker 2>like the Mormon universe, right, because they're kind of like

1523
01:34:56.920 --> 01:34:59.800
<v Speaker 2>the same sort of sci fi larp world in my mind.

1524
01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:06.479
<v Speaker 13>For that, as well as Brigham Young's quote, Brigham Young

1525
01:35:06.640 --> 01:35:10.359
<v Speaker 13>stated in the Journal of Discourses, the Earth is our home.

1526
01:35:10.760 --> 01:35:14.800
<v Speaker 13>It was framed expressly for the habitation of those who

1527
01:35:14.880 --> 01:35:18.760
<v Speaker 13>are faithful to God and who prove themselves worthy to

1528
01:35:18.880 --> 01:35:23.439
<v Speaker 13>inherit the earth. When the Lord shall have sanctified, purified,

1529
01:35:23.520 --> 01:35:27.119
<v Speaker 13>and glorified it, and brought it back into His presence,

1530
01:35:27.760 --> 01:35:32.279
<v Speaker 13>from which it fell far into space. Ask the astronomer

1531
01:35:33.000 --> 01:35:36.560
<v Speaker 13>how far from we are from the nearest of those

1532
01:35:36.640 --> 01:35:41.119
<v Speaker 13>heavenly bodies that are called the fixed stars? Can he

1533
01:35:41.239 --> 01:35:44.439
<v Speaker 13>count the miles? It would be a task for him

1534
01:35:44.560 --> 01:35:48.239
<v Speaker 13>to tell us the distance when the Earth was framed and.

1535
01:35:48.359 --> 01:35:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Brought So, yeah, there's quite a quite an elaborate fan

1536
01:35:54.800 --> 01:35:59.600
<v Speaker 2>fiction narrative going on with the Lord's a colab here.

1537
01:35:59.640 --> 01:36:03.279
<v Speaker 2>Let's see who why are women? God's living out there? Right?

1538
01:36:03.359 --> 01:36:05.920
<v Speaker 2>Gods ado with a body. So we got like Mormon,

1539
01:36:06.159 --> 01:36:10.119
<v Speaker 2>Mormons and Muslims can like you know, Solafi and Mormons

1540
01:36:10.119 --> 01:36:12.560
<v Speaker 2>could get together on this. You know, God the Father's

1541
01:36:12.600 --> 01:36:15.319
<v Speaker 2>got a body. He's up there kind of maybe flying

1542
01:36:15.359 --> 01:36:19.720
<v Speaker 2>around in like a space chariot pyramid. You know, maybe

1543
01:36:19.800 --> 01:36:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Yakub could get in on this. Let's see.

1544
01:36:22.760 --> 01:36:26.119
<v Speaker 7>The Eldest Church teaches that their God is just one

1545
01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:29.600
<v Speaker 7>of many gods throughout the universe and lives near a

1546
01:36:29.680 --> 01:36:36.600
<v Speaker 7>planet or star called co op. It's founder Joseph Smith taught,

1547
01:36:37.000 --> 01:36:40.640
<v Speaker 7>I will preach on the plurality of gods. The heads

1548
01:36:40.720 --> 01:36:46.239
<v Speaker 7>of the gods appointed one God for us. Mormon apostle

1549
01:36:46.319 --> 01:36:49.680
<v Speaker 7>Awesome Pratt taught there are more gods than there are

1550
01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:54.199
<v Speaker 7>particles of matter. One world has a personal God, and

1551
01:36:54.359 --> 01:36:57.560
<v Speaker 7>the inhabitants thereof worship his attributes.

1552
01:36:59.319 --> 01:37:01.760
<v Speaker 2>They're looking like Darwin over here. Look at this, We've

1553
01:37:01.760 --> 01:37:05.760
<v Speaker 2>got Mormon Nietzsche. Look at this, Mormon Nietzsche. We have

1554
01:37:05.960 --> 01:37:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Mormon Darwin right here, and we got Mormon Nietzsche kind of.

1555
01:37:09.560 --> 01:37:16.479
<v Speaker 7>Gods stretching back into the eternities. Mormon apostle John Wister.

1556
01:37:16.319 --> 01:37:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, here we got Mormon Sam Hyde or aka

1557
01:37:20.039 --> 01:37:24.399
<v Speaker 2>Mormon Leon Trotsky taught that.

1558
01:37:24.479 --> 01:37:28.079
<v Speaker 7>There is a plurality of gods is a fundamental.

1559
01:37:27.600 --> 01:37:29.560
<v Speaker 2>Truth of fundamentally truth.

1560
01:37:29.920 --> 01:37:33.479
<v Speaker 7>The Eldest Church teaches that their God is not the

1561
01:37:33.600 --> 01:37:38.520
<v Speaker 7>Supreme Creator mcmarly an organizer over his area.

1562
01:37:38.399 --> 01:37:43.399
<v Speaker 2>Of the universe. Damn son, we got sci fi Lords

1563
01:37:43.439 --> 01:37:47.720
<v Speaker 2>of Cola? Did anybody watch Bylstar Galactica the Mother? Nobody

1564
01:37:47.840 --> 01:37:55.119
<v Speaker 2>remembers Lords of Cola anyway? M exposing dispensationalism, How you doing?

1565
01:37:57.399 --> 01:37:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Jiub says for two dollars that Mormons have a heresy

1566
01:37:59.920 --> 01:38:04.479
<v Speaker 2>or of succession. Checkmate, Jay, who got me slowed by

1567
01:38:04.479 --> 01:38:06.199
<v Speaker 2>wild war? Two dollars? Asked that guy if his name

1568
01:38:06.319 --> 01:38:10.399
<v Speaker 2>is James, I forgot sorry, Dave Mustard staying five dollars,

1569
01:38:10.800 --> 01:38:13.640
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't inherit to guilt make Jesus guilty of sin at

1570
01:38:13.680 --> 01:38:16.439
<v Speaker 2>the moment of his incarnation? I mean Protestants will just

1571
01:38:16.479 --> 01:38:19.399
<v Speaker 2>say that's why there was a virgin birth and that

1572
01:38:19.520 --> 01:38:21.279
<v Speaker 2>he was the one that it was exempted because he

1573
01:38:21.439 --> 01:38:24.760
<v Speaker 2>was a perfect man. Cold quest five dollars. I'm with

1574
01:38:24.920 --> 01:38:27.479
<v Speaker 2>you on UFOs being a syop. I'm having a hard

1575
01:38:27.479 --> 01:38:30.920
<v Speaker 2>time explaining an orb but that my girlfriend and I

1576
01:38:31.079 --> 01:38:34.279
<v Speaker 2>saw physically it was very close. Well, just saying that

1577
01:38:34.920 --> 01:38:38.920
<v Speaker 2>UFOs are psyops doesn't mean that there's no you know,

1578
01:38:39.000 --> 01:38:43.880
<v Speaker 2>supernatural phenomena or inexplicable phenomenon. I think there are inexplicable

1579
01:38:44.119 --> 01:38:49.199
<v Speaker 2>phenomena cases, you know, demons, angels, maybe even stuff we

1580
01:38:49.239 --> 01:38:53.239
<v Speaker 2>don't know about yet. So I don't think that everything

1581
01:38:53.319 --> 01:38:56.760
<v Speaker 2>is a syo. What's up exposing dispensationalism.

1582
01:39:00.159 --> 01:39:07.760
<v Speaker 5>I'm also an Orthodox inquirer. I had a question about iconography.

1583
01:39:08.760 --> 01:39:12.720
<v Speaker 22>Okay, So I was raised in a culture where you're

1584
01:39:12.760 --> 01:39:14.520
<v Speaker 22>not allowed to draw pictures of like.

1585
01:39:14.600 --> 01:39:17.239
<v Speaker 18>Anything like Jesus or anything in heaven.

1586
01:39:17.079 --> 01:39:17.840
<v Speaker 5>Or anything like that.

1587
01:39:19.239 --> 01:39:24.159
<v Speaker 23>Like, how did the Orthodox justify or interpret the second Commandment?

1588
01:39:25.399 --> 01:39:28.439
<v Speaker 2>Right? So we would agree that you cannot have idols,

1589
01:39:29.640 --> 01:39:35.119
<v Speaker 2>and the first and foremost prohibition is on idolatry of

1590
01:39:35.199 --> 01:39:37.159
<v Speaker 2>the heart. Right, So remember the law as a matter

1591
01:39:37.279 --> 01:39:40.640
<v Speaker 2>first and foremost of the heart, not just externals. So

1592
01:39:40.680 --> 01:39:43.119
<v Speaker 2>a lot of times Protestants when they hear this, or

1593
01:39:43.239 --> 01:39:46.439
<v Speaker 2>Muslims or anybody else, they think of idolatry as an

1594
01:39:46.520 --> 01:39:50.279
<v Speaker 2>external action where it's creating some kind of totem or

1595
01:39:50.319 --> 01:39:52.880
<v Speaker 2>some kind of picture. We know that that's not the case,

1596
01:39:53.239 --> 01:39:56.640
<v Speaker 2>first of all, from Exodus itself. It's in Exodus that

1597
01:39:57.359 --> 01:40:01.560
<v Speaker 2>instructions are given for creating a labert iconography for the

1598
01:40:01.720 --> 01:40:07.640
<v Speaker 2>interior of the temple, including the hanging curtains, including the

1599
01:40:07.840 --> 01:40:09.800
<v Speaker 2>arc of the Covenant with the angels on the top

1600
01:40:09.880 --> 01:40:13.359
<v Speaker 2>of it, the seraphim. So we know that it's not

1601
01:40:13.560 --> 01:40:17.039
<v Speaker 2>inherently any imagery that's wrong. And in fact, even in

1602
01:40:17.039 --> 01:40:20.199
<v Speaker 2>the Masoretic text and Joshua seven, you have the case

1603
01:40:20.239 --> 01:40:23.960
<v Speaker 2>of Joshua prostrating before the arc with all of the elders,

1604
01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:28.279
<v Speaker 2>so they're bowing down physically prostrating themselves before the Ark

1605
01:40:28.319 --> 01:40:31.560
<v Speaker 2>of the Covenant. Other chapters you have very similar things

1606
01:40:31.560 --> 01:40:33.840
<v Speaker 2>where all of Israel prostrations before Solomon and the temple

1607
01:40:33.880 --> 01:40:39.039
<v Speaker 2>when he dedicates it. And so it's not physicality, it's

1608
01:40:39.119 --> 01:40:42.560
<v Speaker 2>not imagery that is the problem. It's idolatry, which would

1609
01:40:42.600 --> 01:40:46.640
<v Speaker 2>be to make an image of anything not to be imaged,

1610
01:40:46.760 --> 01:40:48.960
<v Speaker 2>such as the divine nature. If you notice in Acts

1611
01:40:49.000 --> 01:40:52.159
<v Speaker 2>seventeen Paul says the divine nature is not like anything

1612
01:40:52.319 --> 01:40:55.359
<v Speaker 2>created in Orthodoxy. We actually agree with that you cannot

1613
01:40:55.439 --> 01:40:58.119
<v Speaker 2>make an image of the divine essence, the divine nature,

1614
01:40:58.600 --> 01:41:01.840
<v Speaker 2>or even God the Father should not be imaged. However,

1615
01:41:02.359 --> 01:41:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is the icon, and that's used the New Testament

1616
01:41:05.600 --> 01:41:08.479
<v Speaker 2>Colossians for the Greek word for who. He is the

1617
01:41:08.800 --> 01:41:13.560
<v Speaker 2>icon of the Father's hypostasis. He's the direct image of

1618
01:41:14.359 --> 01:41:18.159
<v Speaker 2>the Father. So he is the one unique icon in

1619
01:41:18.279 --> 01:41:22.039
<v Speaker 2>image of the Father. And his becoming flesh means that

1620
01:41:22.119 --> 01:41:26.239
<v Speaker 2>he was circumscribable or limited in time and space in

1621
01:41:26.359 --> 01:41:29.560
<v Speaker 2>that incarnate state, and that means that in the icons,

1622
01:41:29.640 --> 01:41:33.520
<v Speaker 2>what we are picking out is the divine hypostasis of

1623
01:41:33.680 --> 01:41:36.600
<v Speaker 2>the Son in the flesh. So we're not drawing the

1624
01:41:36.640 --> 01:41:39.760
<v Speaker 2>divine nature, we're not drawing who the Father is in

1625
01:41:39.920 --> 01:41:43.560
<v Speaker 2>some speculative way. We are doing it in the way

1626
01:41:43.640 --> 01:41:47.000
<v Speaker 2>that Jesus himself said, if you've seen me, you've seen

1627
01:41:47.119 --> 01:41:50.680
<v Speaker 2>the Father. Because he's saying I am the icon of

1628
01:41:50.800 --> 01:41:53.359
<v Speaker 2>the Father. Hebrews one says he's the image of the

1629
01:41:53.399 --> 01:41:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Father's hypostasis. So that is the legitimate usage of imagery.

1630
01:41:58.159 --> 01:42:00.319
<v Speaker 2>And in the early Church, when the apostles out and

1631
01:42:00.439 --> 01:42:02.560
<v Speaker 2>set up the churches and the seas that they set

1632
01:42:02.600 --> 01:42:07.399
<v Speaker 2>up seees, they established liturgical worship for the church, just

1633
01:42:07.920 --> 01:42:11.640
<v Speaker 2>like Israel had in the temple and synagogue system, you see,

1634
01:42:12.000 --> 01:42:16.000
<v Speaker 2>and that's why early synagogues also are covered in imagery,

1635
01:42:16.119 --> 01:42:19.479
<v Speaker 2>like the Dora Europos Synagogue, and so the early Church

1636
01:42:20.199 --> 01:42:23.039
<v Speaker 2>was always pro imagery. You can find if you go

1637
01:42:23.079 --> 01:42:25.279
<v Speaker 2>to the catacombs in Rome. I went last year to

1638
01:42:25.399 --> 01:42:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Rome to the catacombs. They're everywhere. I only went to

1639
01:42:28.960 --> 01:42:33.319
<v Speaker 2>one of the catacomb systems. You can see imagery, you

1640
01:42:33.399 --> 01:42:35.960
<v Speaker 2>can see Christ the Good Shepherd, you can see altars.

1641
01:42:36.640 --> 01:42:39.760
<v Speaker 2>They had all the same stuff even in the catacombs

1642
01:42:39.760 --> 01:42:41.279
<v Speaker 2>that you'll find an Orthodox church.

1643
01:42:46.039 --> 01:42:50.079
<v Speaker 5>Oh okay, that kind of answers that question, then thank you, Yes.

1644
01:42:50.319 --> 01:42:54.399
<v Speaker 2>I would recommend our friends over at Orthodox Shahada made

1645
01:42:54.439 --> 01:42:59.199
<v Speaker 2>a great documentary on this very question. It's called Christian

1646
01:42:59.239 --> 01:43:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Worship and the Old Testament. Every Protestant and every iconoclast

1647
01:43:03.800 --> 01:43:08.359
<v Speaker 2>minded or background person should watch this documentary. It's one

1648
01:43:08.399 --> 01:43:10.560
<v Speaker 2>of the best. We always end up recommending it. Lewis

1649
01:43:10.600 --> 01:43:13.039
<v Speaker 2>spent a tremendous amount of time on it. It's based

1650
01:43:13.079 --> 01:43:16.520
<v Speaker 2>on a couple of the texts you know that well,

1651
01:43:17.039 --> 01:43:20.079
<v Speaker 2>I didn't mention them, but it's based on Williams and

1652
01:43:20.119 --> 01:43:23.520
<v Speaker 2>Anstell's book. It's based on Louis Bouillet's liturgy book. It's

1653
01:43:23.560 --> 01:43:28.039
<v Speaker 2>based on Hugh Wybru's Byzantine Liturgy Book. So it's actually

1654
01:43:28.399 --> 01:43:32.199
<v Speaker 2>partly based on arguments that Protestant scholars have written like Wybrut,

1655
01:43:32.560 --> 01:43:35.800
<v Speaker 2>so it's not just some you know, Orthodox assertion. You

1656
01:43:35.880 --> 01:43:39.439
<v Speaker 2>can actually see all the citations from Protestant liturgical scholars,

1657
01:43:39.840 --> 01:43:44.039
<v Speaker 2>and Lewis just really walks through all the elements of

1658
01:43:44.199 --> 01:43:47.960
<v Speaker 2>the Jewish temple and synagogue liturgy that carried over into

1659
01:43:48.319 --> 01:43:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the Early Church in the Apostolic era and in the

1660
01:43:50.800 --> 01:43:54.520
<v Speaker 2>first and second third centuries. So it's an invaluable documentary,

1661
01:43:55.439 --> 01:43:58.119
<v Speaker 2>even to the point of the similarity between the clerical

1662
01:43:58.279 --> 01:44:01.239
<v Speaker 2>vestiments that the high priest war in the way that

1663
01:44:01.279 --> 01:44:04.439
<v Speaker 2>you see an Orthodox bishop decked out their their analogus,

1664
01:44:04.439 --> 01:44:11.800
<v Speaker 2>their fulfillments of one another. Sec on YouTube or yes,

1665
01:44:11.920 --> 01:44:14.840
<v Speaker 2>it's called Christian Worship and the Old Testament, and I've

1666
01:44:14.880 --> 01:44:17.319
<v Speaker 2>got it pulled up here on the screen. It's putting

1667
01:44:17.359 --> 01:44:20.600
<v Speaker 2>a chat for you guys. But the channel is Orthodox

1668
01:44:20.800 --> 01:44:25.199
<v Speaker 2>Shahata s h A H A d A. And the

1669
01:44:25.279 --> 01:44:29.319
<v Speaker 2>documentary is Christian Worship and the Old Testament. Now for

1670
01:44:29.439 --> 01:44:31.960
<v Speaker 2>all the people who are lazy and they just repeat,

1671
01:44:32.119 --> 01:44:35.039
<v Speaker 2>not you, but they just repeat what Gavin Ortland says.

1672
01:44:35.159 --> 01:44:37.560
<v Speaker 2>And this is all these Protestant things, like nobody just

1673
01:44:37.640 --> 01:44:41.279
<v Speaker 2>goes and watches the documentary I'm not talking about you,

1674
01:44:41.720 --> 01:44:43.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm just talking about general sort of the people that

1675
01:44:43.720 --> 01:44:47.960
<v Speaker 2>hop on here and say, you guys arete dollars. We don't,

1676
01:44:48.560 --> 01:44:51.119
<v Speaker 2>we don't worship the way. It's like, did you not

1677
01:44:51.279 --> 01:44:53.439
<v Speaker 2>watch this documentary that literally deals with every one of

1678
01:44:53.479 --> 01:44:55.800
<v Speaker 2>these issues. Every one of those stupid things that Gavin

1679
01:44:55.880 --> 01:45:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Ortland endlessly brings up is answered in this document Like

1680
01:45:01.319 --> 01:45:06.560
<v Speaker 2>the Early Church has this style of worship, admittedly from

1681
01:45:06.640 --> 01:45:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Protestant scholars, and they have elements of imagery, iconography, and

1682
01:45:16.720 --> 01:45:21.960
<v Speaker 2>other sacramental things that are not in Protestantism. Okay, So

1683
01:45:22.359 --> 01:45:27.199
<v Speaker 2>when Gavin Ortland says, where's all the elaborate, ornate iconography

1684
01:45:27.279 --> 01:45:28.960
<v Speaker 2>in the first, second, and third century, Oh, you mean

1685
01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:32.439
<v Speaker 2>when the churches in the catacombs when they're being persecuted.

1686
01:45:32.439 --> 01:45:34.399
<v Speaker 2>Who's going to be able to set up a giant

1687
01:45:34.479 --> 01:45:41.880
<v Speaker 2>cathedral with elaborate temple level iconography when you're getting persecuted. Nobody.

1688
01:45:41.960 --> 01:45:45.119
<v Speaker 2>It's silly argument, right, ignoring the contexts and the history.

1689
01:45:45.600 --> 01:45:49.039
<v Speaker 2>But guess what if you go to the catacombs in Rome,

1690
01:45:49.159 --> 01:45:55.960
<v Speaker 2>there's images, Well there may be images, but they did

1691
01:45:56.000 --> 01:45:56.720
<v Speaker 2>not revere them.

1692
01:45:56.800 --> 01:45:57.359
<v Speaker 7>How do you know that?

1693
01:45:57.920 --> 01:46:01.840
<v Speaker 2>So notice the shift in the argument that burden approof shifts.

1694
01:46:02.439 --> 01:46:05.520
<v Speaker 2>There's no, you can't prove there's images prior to the

1695
01:46:05.600 --> 01:46:07.920
<v Speaker 2>fifth and sixth century. H really, so you give examples

1696
01:46:07.960 --> 01:46:09.920
<v Speaker 2>of catacombs. Well, there's images, but you don't know that

1697
01:46:09.960 --> 01:46:12.399
<v Speaker 2>they were. So now you move the goalpost. Now that

1698
01:46:12.520 --> 01:46:15.079
<v Speaker 2>we prove that there were images, but you can't show

1699
01:46:15.119 --> 01:46:18.039
<v Speaker 2>it being raversed. Oh, excuse me, it was the Eucharist reverence. Yes,

1700
01:46:18.079 --> 01:46:20.520
<v Speaker 2>it was because they taught the real presence in the first, second,

1701
01:46:20.520 --> 01:46:23.000
<v Speaker 2>third century. Oh well that doesn't coult because that's not

1702
01:46:23.479 --> 01:46:26.760
<v Speaker 2>But it is an image, even in your view the UK,

1703
01:46:26.920 --> 01:46:28.439
<v Speaker 2>even though you don't believe in the real presence, you

1704
01:46:28.520 --> 01:46:30.760
<v Speaker 2>still believe it's an image of Christ with the bread

1705
01:46:30.760 --> 01:46:33.560
<v Speaker 2>and the wine. Right, Well, it's a symbolic image, yes, Okay,

1706
01:46:33.600 --> 01:46:36.039
<v Speaker 2>well there you go. So there's an image prior to Well,

1707
01:46:36.079 --> 01:46:39.880
<v Speaker 2>that's an image that the Lord ordained. Well, hold on,

1708
01:46:40.119 --> 01:46:44.960
<v Speaker 2>so now it's what Christ ordains. Because no Protestant church

1709
01:46:45.760 --> 01:46:48.720
<v Speaker 2>has any biblical evidence for how the worship service is

1710
01:46:48.720 --> 01:46:51.520
<v Speaker 2>supposed to go. So now you put yourself in even

1711
01:46:51.560 --> 01:46:53.520
<v Speaker 2>worse position because you don't have any evidence of what

1712
01:46:53.760 --> 01:46:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Jesus ordained for the actual worship service. I don't understand

1713
01:46:59.079 --> 01:47:02.479
<v Speaker 2>that Protestants always just I think this is devastating. When

1714
01:47:02.479 --> 01:47:05.000
<v Speaker 2>I was Protestant, when I was Calvinist, I realized this,

1715
01:47:05.079 --> 01:47:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Wait a minute, the New Testament doesn't have a worship service.

1716
01:47:08.520 --> 01:47:10.399
<v Speaker 2>And when I read Nate up and abay, who, God

1717
01:47:10.439 --> 01:47:14.239
<v Speaker 2>seems to care quite a bit about how he's worshiped. Right, Well,

1718
01:47:14.279 --> 01:47:17.199
<v Speaker 2>if solar scripture is true, why wouldn't he have laid

1719
01:47:17.279 --> 01:47:20.359
<v Speaker 2>down in the written text that the church is all

1720
01:47:20.479 --> 01:47:24.720
<v Speaker 2>supposed to have as its final authority. The pattern of

1721
01:47:24.920 --> 01:47:28.000
<v Speaker 2>how a worship service goes there should be like Paul's

1722
01:47:28.039 --> 01:47:32.399
<v Speaker 2>epistle to you know the Church of Corinth on the

1723
01:47:32.520 --> 01:47:37.239
<v Speaker 2>liturgical service. Well, guess what, we don't have that. But

1724
01:47:37.319 --> 01:47:39.279
<v Speaker 2>God seems to care quite a bit about how he's

1725
01:47:39.279 --> 01:47:42.159
<v Speaker 2>worshiped because he kills people that do it wrong. And

1726
01:47:42.279 --> 01:47:44.800
<v Speaker 2>even the New Testament, Paul tells the Church of Corinth,

1727
01:47:44.960 --> 01:47:48.279
<v Speaker 2>if you eat unworthily, you could still be killed. So

1728
01:47:48.399 --> 01:47:51.000
<v Speaker 2>he still cares about worship enough to kill people over it.

1729
01:47:51.439 --> 01:47:53.479
<v Speaker 2>So how are we supposed to worship? Well, I don't know.

1730
01:47:53.560 --> 01:47:56.039
<v Speaker 2>I guess Pastor Randy Balls can just make it up

1731
01:47:56.039 --> 01:48:02.680
<v Speaker 2>as he goes. Well, brother, I pray really hard, pray

1732
01:48:02.800 --> 01:48:06.279
<v Speaker 2>really hord and the Lord's done told me that we're

1733
01:48:06.319 --> 01:48:09.119
<v Speaker 2>going to worship in the style of Bishop TD Jakes.

1734
01:48:09.960 --> 01:48:12.239
<v Speaker 2>We're going to scream and hoot and holler, and we're

1735
01:48:12.279 --> 01:48:18.279
<v Speaker 2>going to do the Roger Rabbit in every service. David,

1736
01:48:18.319 --> 01:48:26.520
<v Speaker 2>what's up? Roll stakes, Let's talk God. Five dollars? Can

1737
01:48:26.560 --> 01:48:33.119
<v Speaker 2>you break down? We already did that. Cursed world, just

1738
01:48:33.720 --> 01:48:38.079
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars. Curse world problems with the spicy meat ball

1739
01:48:38.199 --> 01:48:41.319
<v Speaker 2>of icon questions waiting on the Twitter space. I mean,

1740
01:48:42.239 --> 01:48:45.720
<v Speaker 2>are they requesting to speak because you got to come

1741
01:48:45.760 --> 01:48:48.800
<v Speaker 2>on and I'm not reading a bunch of text questions.

1742
01:48:49.560 --> 01:48:52.119
<v Speaker 2>But thank you for that, Rosa Tron forty two dollars,

1743
01:48:52.199 --> 01:48:54.119
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much. Thank you for opening my eyes

1744
01:48:54.159 --> 01:48:58.279
<v Speaker 2>at Orthodox Church. The answer is forty two. I was

1745
01:48:58.319 --> 01:49:04.720
<v Speaker 2>that the Douglas What's his Face? Satire book Cody asked

1746
01:49:04.800 --> 01:49:10.640
<v Speaker 2>three dollars. God, Protestantism is insecure in regard to his creation,

1747
01:49:11.680 --> 01:49:15.960
<v Speaker 2>afraid of honoring his saints, diminishes his glory. It's incompetent

1748
01:49:16.079 --> 01:49:19.359
<v Speaker 2>in guiding his people, and holds lower standards for relationships

1749
01:49:19.399 --> 01:49:23.720
<v Speaker 2>than most spouses would accept. Those are some good practical critiques.

1750
01:49:23.760 --> 01:49:31.039
<v Speaker 2>Of Protestant Theolgio degree Rachel Wilson five dollars. Okay, So

1751
01:49:31.119 --> 01:49:34.439
<v Speaker 2>in Mormon theology, Jesus is a middle manager for the

1752
01:49:34.520 --> 01:49:38.359
<v Speaker 2>Department Earth correct and he's also loose for his brother.

1753
01:49:39.199 --> 01:49:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Did I get that right?

1754
01:49:40.039 --> 01:49:40.199
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1755
01:49:40.880 --> 01:49:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Wild Mormon captured three dollars. Mormons hate it when you

1756
01:49:43.680 --> 01:49:45.720
<v Speaker 2>call them by their temple names. Try it.

1757
01:49:47.560 --> 01:49:48.079
<v Speaker 13>How do we know?

1758
01:49:48.720 --> 01:49:52.159
<v Speaker 2>How do I know what their temple name is? David whatsoever? Either?

1759
01:49:53.199 --> 01:49:58.039
<v Speaker 12>Yeah, Hey, Jay, I have a question about the second

1760
01:49:58.079 --> 01:50:01.560
<v Speaker 12>temple destruction in Mark thirteen. I heard you talk about

1761
01:50:01.600 --> 01:50:06.840
<v Speaker 12>how that's a fulfillment of the coved worship in Deuteronomy

1762
01:50:06.960 --> 01:50:07.399
<v Speaker 12>twenty eight.

1763
01:50:07.439 --> 01:50:09.760
<v Speaker 5>I was just wondering, is that just.

1764
01:50:09.800 --> 01:50:11.680
<v Speaker 12>In the David Chilten book or is that can you

1765
01:50:11.720 --> 01:50:13.000
<v Speaker 12>find that the Church fathers too?

1766
01:50:14.199 --> 01:50:17.279
<v Speaker 2>No, Chris system is very explicit as our other Church

1767
01:50:17.359 --> 01:50:21.079
<v Speaker 2>fathers about seventy eight being what's happening in the all

1768
01:50:21.119 --> 01:50:21.720
<v Speaker 2>of that discourse?

1769
01:50:22.920 --> 01:50:27.079
<v Speaker 18>Okay, do you know like what Hamley that is?

1770
01:50:27.079 --> 01:50:29.439
<v Speaker 2>Because it was right, it's just Hombily's on Matthew twenty four.

1771
01:50:30.439 --> 01:50:36.000
<v Speaker 18>Okay, all right, you know what is that the only

1772
01:50:36.079 --> 01:50:36.800
<v Speaker 18>one you can think of?

1773
01:50:37.359 --> 01:50:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Christystom No, Saint Cyril of Jerusalem. Mint. I don't remember

1774
01:50:42.319 --> 01:50:45.840
<v Speaker 2>specifically about Matthew twenty four, but I think so Cyril Jerusalem,

1775
01:50:45.840 --> 01:50:49.319
<v Speaker 2>I think of the Catechetical Lectures has a seventy eight reference.

1776
01:50:49.960 --> 01:50:53.159
<v Speaker 2>Saint Athanasius has a seventy eight reference for Daniel nine.

1777
01:50:54.279 --> 01:50:57.279
<v Speaker 2>Saint Cyril of Alexandria, I don't exactly remember where, but

1778
01:50:57.359 --> 01:51:05.600
<v Speaker 2>he does have a preterist person predist statements. Origin does,

1779
01:51:08.640 --> 01:51:11.960
<v Speaker 2>and I think other there's some other Eastern father references too. Now,

1780
01:51:12.600 --> 01:51:15.039
<v Speaker 2>there is a Protestant website used to be up. Let's

1781
01:51:15.039 --> 01:51:17.760
<v Speaker 2>see if we can find it that that actually had

1782
01:51:17.840 --> 01:51:19.720
<v Speaker 2>collected a lot of these. Let me see if it's

1783
01:51:19.720 --> 01:51:21.560
<v Speaker 2>still I don't know if it's still around or not. Yeah,

1784
01:51:22.840 --> 01:51:29.479
<v Speaker 2>Preadist church fathers. But I will say that the partial

1785
01:51:29.560 --> 01:51:34.319
<v Speaker 2>predatorist reading is way more Oh Usebius, I forgot, there's

1786
01:51:34.319 --> 01:51:38.000
<v Speaker 2>a good one in Usebius. It's way more evident in

1787
01:51:38.279 --> 01:51:40.479
<v Speaker 2>Eastern fathers than it is in Latin fathers. I'm not

1788
01:51:40.560 --> 01:51:42.279
<v Speaker 2>saying it's not in Latin fathers.

1789
01:51:42.319 --> 01:51:42.720
<v Speaker 13>I know that.

1790
01:51:42.840 --> 01:51:50.359
<v Speaker 2>For example. Oh, oh, I know another good one. Hillary Hippologists.

1791
01:51:50.680 --> 01:51:56.159
<v Speaker 2>Saint Hippologists of Rome is a very early uh prederist statement.

1792
01:51:56.880 --> 01:51:59.960
<v Speaker 2>The Didiki has a predist statement. It's either Dideki or

1793
01:52:00.079 --> 01:52:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Pistol barnabas As. Yeah, exactly. Oh, Clement of Alexandra, I

1794
01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:07.640
<v Speaker 2>didn't even I forgot. Now he's not a saint, but

1795
01:52:07.680 --> 01:52:27.119
<v Speaker 2>he's an early witness. Let's see. Yeah, No, it's not

1796
01:52:27.279 --> 01:52:36.439
<v Speaker 2>gonna look for I don't say the old website that

1797
01:52:36.560 --> 01:52:40.079
<v Speaker 2>used to be up about preterism in the Church Fathers.

1798
01:52:41.239 --> 01:52:56.039
<v Speaker 2>It's the dedicated by the way, it's not the pistol Barnabas. Okay, Uh,

1799
01:52:56.119 --> 01:52:57.560
<v Speaker 2>those are the ones that come to mind. But I'm

1800
01:52:57.560 --> 01:52:59.880
<v Speaker 2>sure you can dig up some more if you spend more.

1801
01:52:59.760 --> 01:53:00.279
<v Speaker 8>Time on it.

1802
01:53:00.960 --> 01:53:04.600
<v Speaker 12>Okay, yeah, no problem. Also, I did have a question

1803
01:53:04.760 --> 01:53:11.479
<v Speaker 12>regarding Unham's sanctum in Denzing You're it says a quote

1804
01:53:11.479 --> 01:53:16.840
<v Speaker 12>where Boniface rejected that he was trying to basically usurp

1805
01:53:17.920 --> 01:53:20.479
<v Speaker 12>phill up the fourth authority, Like what would you think

1806
01:53:20.520 --> 01:53:22.439
<v Speaker 12>of that when you bring up there, because I, like

1807
01:53:22.479 --> 01:53:24.640
<v Speaker 12>I have read it it does have like very strong

1808
01:53:24.760 --> 01:53:27.039
<v Speaker 12>statements of temporal authority. But then he also kind of

1809
01:53:27.079 --> 01:53:29.920
<v Speaker 12>tries to, like it seems in the quote he kind

1810
01:53:29.920 --> 01:53:31.520
<v Speaker 12>of tries to like pull it back a little.

1811
01:53:31.359 --> 01:53:32.399
<v Speaker 18>Bit when he's questioned on it.

1812
01:53:34.439 --> 01:53:37.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think even in the Roman Catholic system, you're

1813
01:53:37.359 --> 01:53:41.319
<v Speaker 2>bound by the dogmatic statement itself. So and you're saying

1814
01:53:41.359 --> 01:53:45.119
<v Speaker 2>that after this he dialed it back. Yeah, well, I

1815
01:53:45.199 --> 01:53:46.760
<v Speaker 2>mean even if he dialed it back, I mean the

1816
01:53:46.880 --> 01:53:52.960
<v Speaker 2>expectation from like Dick Tatus Pope, which is two hundred

1817
01:53:53.039 --> 01:53:55.640
<v Speaker 2>years earlier, three hundred years earlier, like, the expectation is

1818
01:53:55.640 --> 01:54:00.880
<v Speaker 2>pretty much the same until I mean, maybe somebody should

1819
01:54:00.880 --> 01:54:04.079
<v Speaker 2>do a study on exactly the whole history of the

1820
01:54:04.159 --> 01:54:08.800
<v Speaker 2>temporal supremacy, because it's it's there from Dictatus Pope clearly

1821
01:54:09.159 --> 01:54:17.520
<v Speaker 2>until Sanctum. I don't know of the explicit Well, let

1822
01:54:17.600 --> 01:54:19.880
<v Speaker 2>me rephrase it this way. If you go to Lamenta

1823
01:54:19.960 --> 01:54:24.239
<v Speaker 2>Billy into the pre Vatican to strong and cyclicals that

1824
01:54:24.359 --> 01:54:30.680
<v Speaker 2>condemn modernism, Lamenta Billy, for example, condemns the separation of

1825
01:54:30.760 --> 01:54:36.520
<v Speaker 2>church and state. I think it references. It doesn't explicitly

1826
01:54:36.560 --> 01:54:40.039
<v Speaker 2>say temporal supremacy, but there is a statement about the

1827
01:54:40.199 --> 01:54:44.199
<v Speaker 2>idea of dechristianizing the states, and let me pull up

1828
01:54:44.239 --> 01:54:48.079
<v Speaker 2>Lamita Billy. There's something along these lines. So I would

1829
01:54:48.199 --> 01:54:52.119
<v Speaker 2>argue that even Lamenta Billy still has this idea at work.

1830
01:54:53.119 --> 01:54:56.600
<v Speaker 2>And I would just argue that. I mean, post Vatican two,

1831
01:54:56.680 --> 01:55:00.640
<v Speaker 2>the Church does not hold to what Lamentabiley says for sure.

1832
01:55:00.720 --> 01:55:05.279
<v Speaker 12>Even the Tatas poppy was obviously used to depose emperors

1833
01:55:05.319 --> 01:55:08.920
<v Speaker 12>as well, so I mean they yeah, so yeah, that's fair.

1834
01:55:09.279 --> 01:55:11.560
<v Speaker 18>Okay, Yeah, I think that's everything.

1835
01:55:12.319 --> 01:55:12.680
<v Speaker 5>Thanks ja.

1836
01:55:13.960 --> 01:55:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's see, I'm scrolling through Lamentabilia says stuff like, uh,

1837
01:55:24.439 --> 01:55:27.600
<v Speaker 2>I know there's some of these propositions about temporal supremacy.

1838
01:55:27.720 --> 01:55:28.359
<v Speaker 2>Let me see.

1839
01:55:45.119 --> 01:55:47.199
<v Speaker 12>In Vatican one as well, I believe I just read

1840
01:55:47.239 --> 01:55:52.239
<v Speaker 12>it recently. It did talk about how it's wrong to

1841
01:55:52.359 --> 01:55:55.600
<v Speaker 12>have the like religious liberty of Protestants as well, so

1842
01:55:55.680 --> 01:55:58.359
<v Speaker 12>I think that's also a pretty strong No.

1843
01:55:58.479 --> 01:56:00.760
<v Speaker 2>Actually, well there's actually quite a few. There's not. It's

1844
01:56:02.640 --> 01:56:05.119
<v Speaker 2>I always forget these encyclicals. But if you get the Tan.

1845
01:56:05.079 --> 01:56:09.199
<v Speaker 18>Books, Quanticua Libertas as well, that's it.

1846
01:56:09.319 --> 01:56:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's Quanticua, there's Lamentabilli, there's Pacindi Dominici, Grades of Pies,

1847
01:56:15.880 --> 01:56:21.760
<v Speaker 2>the tenth and what's it called. It's called Popes against

1848
01:56:21.760 --> 01:56:24.319
<v Speaker 2>the Modern Errors. It has all of these, do you

1849
01:56:24.359 --> 01:56:25.159
<v Speaker 2>know what I'm talking about?

1850
01:56:25.760 --> 01:56:25.960
<v Speaker 8>Yeah?

1851
01:56:26.560 --> 01:56:29.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that book from Tan right here, it has all

1852
01:56:29.640 --> 01:56:32.039
<v Speaker 2>those sixteen papal documents in it.

1853
01:56:34.279 --> 01:56:37.840
<v Speaker 12>Yeah, Catholic answers response was that although they're not teaching

1854
01:56:38.079 --> 01:56:39.359
<v Speaker 12>a complete.

1855
01:56:38.960 --> 01:56:41.640
<v Speaker 18>Religious liberty, they're just saying it's allowed. So they thought

1856
01:56:41.680 --> 01:56:45.560
<v Speaker 18>that that was a good reputation to that.

1857
01:56:47.439 --> 01:56:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, that's I need a better answer to this.

1858
01:56:50.840 --> 01:56:54.319
<v Speaker 2>So here's the sixteen documents. If you don't want to

1859
01:56:54.319 --> 01:56:55.640
<v Speaker 2>get this book. By the way, here is a full

1860
01:56:55.880 --> 01:56:58.319
<v Speaker 2>Tan Books offers the entire book as a PDF. So

1861
01:56:58.399 --> 01:57:00.199
<v Speaker 2>I'll give this to you guys in the chat. But

1862
01:57:00.479 --> 01:57:05.319
<v Speaker 2>the specific papal and cyclicals and documents are Mara revalse

1863
01:57:05.439 --> 01:57:09.079
<v Speaker 2>against liberalism and and by the way, some of these

1864
01:57:09.239 --> 01:57:14.079
<v Speaker 2>will reference the temporal supremacy of the church as still binding.

1865
01:57:14.479 --> 01:57:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Syllabus of errors excuse me, that's the one I could.

1866
01:57:16.520 --> 01:57:20.279
<v Speaker 2>It's Lamentabilly and syllabus of errors and syllables of errors

1867
01:57:20.359 --> 01:57:22.119
<v Speaker 2>is attached to vout Itican one for those who don't know.

1868
01:57:23.199 --> 01:57:27.640
<v Speaker 2>But Silvia Savars talks about errors regarding the civil power

1869
01:57:27.760 --> 01:57:31.479
<v Speaker 2>of the Roman pontiff. That's it. Let me pull that up.

1870
01:57:34.520 --> 01:57:37.760
<v Speaker 2>I was getting Lamentabilly and the Silaba Savars mixed up,

1871
01:57:37.800 --> 01:57:59.399
<v Speaker 2>so let me pull that up. Okay, let's see Syllaba

1872
01:57:59.439 --> 01:58:05.279
<v Speaker 2>Savars after the condemnation of socialism and communism. In section eighteen,

1873
01:58:05.520 --> 01:58:08.319
<v Speaker 2>it goes into errors concerning the Church and her rights.

1874
01:58:09.880 --> 01:58:13.279
<v Speaker 2>The Church is not a perfect society. These are a

1875
01:58:13.319 --> 01:58:18.600
<v Speaker 2>condemned proposition. The ecclesiastical power auto exercises authority without permission

1876
01:58:18.600 --> 01:58:22.159
<v Speaker 2>of the civil government. Assume me ought not. So this

1877
01:58:22.319 --> 01:58:24.960
<v Speaker 2>is condemning the state in the church. The church has

1878
01:58:25.000 --> 01:58:28.399
<v Speaker 2>not the power defining dogmatically that the Catholic religion is

1879
01:58:28.439 --> 01:58:32.119
<v Speaker 2>the only true religion. So this is still affirming Christian

1880
01:58:32.199 --> 01:58:38.560
<v Speaker 2>states and Christian christianization of the civil states. Specifically, it's

1881
01:58:38.920 --> 01:58:45.840
<v Speaker 2>twenty one Roman pontiffs and acumenical councils wandered outside their

1882
01:58:45.920 --> 01:58:50.840
<v Speaker 2>limits and ussurped the rights of princes. This is a

1883
01:58:50.880 --> 01:58:53.479
<v Speaker 2>critique that I'm making, Okay, So when you hear me

1884
01:58:53.560 --> 01:58:58.119
<v Speaker 2>saying that the Roman pontiff is not the quizos Hoderock,

1885
01:58:58.479 --> 01:59:02.520
<v Speaker 2>this is condemning that proposition right here. The Church does

1886
01:59:02.600 --> 01:59:05.279
<v Speaker 2>not have the power of force, nor does she have

1887
01:59:05.520 --> 01:59:08.319
<v Speaker 2>temporal power. Condemned proposition right there.

1888
01:59:10.159 --> 01:59:12.680
<v Speaker 18>Okay, yeah, interesting, all right, And.

1889
01:59:12.720 --> 01:59:16.039
<v Speaker 2>By the way, there's more if you keep going. Besides

1890
01:59:16.079 --> 01:59:19.520
<v Speaker 2>the power of the episcopate, the temporal power that has

1891
01:59:19.560 --> 01:59:23.159
<v Speaker 2>been attributed to it by the civil authority can be

1892
01:59:23.319 --> 01:59:29.960
<v Speaker 2>revoked condemned. So you'll notice here in the twenties, not

1893
01:59:30.159 --> 01:59:34.000
<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenties, but in the twenties numbered of the document

1894
01:59:34.079 --> 01:59:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Silver Savaras of eighteen sixty four, which is attached to

1895
01:59:36.560 --> 01:59:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Vatican One, throughout the numbers twenty to twenty nine or

1896
01:59:43.640 --> 01:59:52.079
<v Speaker 2>thirty ish is still upholding the temporal supremacy ow ambishops.

1897
01:59:52.079 --> 01:59:55.119
<v Speaker 2>So again this is even stronger for my case because

1898
01:59:55.159 --> 02:00:00.039
<v Speaker 2>this means that temporal supremacy was taught from dictatus a

1899
02:00:00.680 --> 02:00:03.319
<v Speaker 2>unam sank them all the way up until the Syllabus

1900
02:00:03.359 --> 02:00:07.840
<v Speaker 2>of Airs in eighteen sixty four attached the Vatican One,

1901
02:00:09.479 --> 02:00:12.760
<v Speaker 2>and it even cites the other documents where this has continued.

1902
02:00:13.960 --> 02:00:21.920
<v Speaker 2>These so when you see that the church, the Roman Church,

1903
02:00:22.119 --> 02:00:22.159
<v Speaker 2>is