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Speaker 1: I want to see you ask the floor, make it clap, clap,

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bankers on the floor. Banker people bank together, such a

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medal class.

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Speaker 2: And I'm singing to the people on here. I'm not

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singing to you. I want you guys to hear the

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beautiful music. I want the people on Twitter space to

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hear me singing. I don't need you in the chat

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telling me to unmute. I'm fully cognizant and capable of

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running this stream. Baby. Now we got some a little

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bit of drama. I want to dress first. Shout out

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to Snack and Lewis and the chat. Them old school

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boys that been around for the long haul. We appreciate them.

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And speaking of Lewis, Lewis reminded me some years back

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of a great Oxford Union debate. And I'm bringing that

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up because we still have a lot of uneducated people

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who think that there's something inherently bad about debate. They

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think it doesn't involve rhetoric jobs, they don't think that

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it's even part of a classical pedagogy. So we live

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in this weird time of highly uneducated people, and even

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the edge of an influencer class still is under some

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kind of delusion that debating is a bad thing. Part

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of it has to do with feminization of the church.

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Everybody being so soy, everybody is so reactionary. They don't

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think through challenges and positions, especially via Twitter. Everyone just reacts.

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But if you go and watch this debate about the

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existence of God, you'll note that Hitchens does a great

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job here of laying out a case presenting the remnants

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of classical debate and pedagogy. Now, sometimes we do formal

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debates and sometimes we do informal debates. When it's a

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high profile person, I give them a formal debate. We've

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done many of those. So the people that act like

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I don't do formal debates are to scream over everybody

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else is not true, and then we know that that's

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not true. It's just a bunch of maloney, malarkey and

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huey yesterday the debate two days ago. That was a

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tongue in cheek debate. I thought a lot of you

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would be hip enough to pick up on the fact

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that she's a counterculture art galal, she was on Perfect

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Guy Life, she's in TV shows. Of course, it's not

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a serious debate with her and people, So what this

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is the playo gift for you alone and people losing

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their minds? Why would you have this girl wha she's

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a hooker? Wh people losing their minds because of an

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attractive girl is on the stream a bunch of dang

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dorks that had never had a girlfriend or talk to

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a girl. You were only nice to her because she's

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a lot of chicky. Now wait a minute, so that

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I'm nice to somebody in a tongue in cheek debate,

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and I'm still bad. You're bad because you even did it.

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So I can't win no matter what I do. I

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can't wait if I'm nice to somebody in a fake

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debate as a fake debate, man, it was supposed to

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be funny and fun and by the way, almost one

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hundred thousand people have watched it. Why did you even

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do it? Because of one hundred thousand dorks that have

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never seen this channel, Well watch it and they did.

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That's why? Duh? Why does Andrew debate dumb dumb girls

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on whatever? Cause hundreds of thousand of people watch it?

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What do you think?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: How many new dorks came and watched stuff that have

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never been over here? A lot she has a big audience,

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So like what you don't even know how the internet

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works anyway, Listen to Hitchins.

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Speaker 1: In facts.

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Speaker 4: I loathe taking part in it almost more than any

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other argument.

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Speaker 2: I'm not playing the whole.

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Speaker 4: For why Because I have to come up here and

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defend the religion of love, brotherhood, peace, justice and turning

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the other cheek rather than kicking the other guy in

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the crutch. And I have to listen. I have to

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listen while I'm doing it to these gentlemen who remind

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me constantly of the most irritating, infuriating, revolting person I

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ever knew, namely my adolescent self.

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Speaker 2: See, he's doing jobs, he's doing nags, he's making fun

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of himself, he's making fun of everything, especially the opponents

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whom he's saying at Oxford act like thirteen year old kids.

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That's a jab, dummies, that's this is like the ultimate

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informal debate, Oxford Union Debate, the classic medieval style. You're

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not supposed to ever say anything, means the woman who

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feelings Jesus is a feeye wee feey good.

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Speaker 5: I feewy me few wey.

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Speaker 2: No wonder people turn to Islam. You are the reason

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people go to Islam. Yeah, Islam's dumb, but Muslims don't

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go around good.

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Speaker 5: You feel.

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Speaker 2: Mohammed, I don't waken me.

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Speaker 5: You feel feel good now.

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Speaker 2: I wish I wish moment would give me a hooky work. No,

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them crazy, It will just come attack you with a

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dang great gang because they're crazy. Well, guess what the

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solution that is not to be a complete goof, a

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complete goober, a complete feels man. It's it's just it's

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it's it's just crazy the way it is. You know

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what I'm saying. It's just wild. I can't even explain it. Man,

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I don't even know what to tell y'all, just all

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the look. So all I did is ask Calvin Robinson

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months ago, would you like to have He talked about

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the Philioqua, and I said, would you like to have

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a discussion on this? This is months ago?

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Speaker 6: How dare you?

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Speaker 2: And no, you're and your polemics and you're baiting and

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your blah blah, this litany, this giant wall of Textboh,

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I'm a bad person for just simply saying would you

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like to do a formal debate? And he'll debate all

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day about debating so I let it go. Didn't say

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anything else. Today he's interacting, debating with other Orthodox priests now.

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So in the DMS, I said, we, hey, would you

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like to circle back, circle back and have a discussion

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on philioquay. I don't want to participate in your baiting

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and you're so bad and you're this and that. I'll

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show you the DMS if you don't believe it. But

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that's what happened. I mean, do you think I would

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be able to do what I do if I didn't

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have basic skills and capabilities of civility for professionalism in

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messaging people and ask them to do a debate. How

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would we even have the audience that we have if

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I cannot function that way? Oh you're still bad though,

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you're still mean?

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Speaker 5: How for what?

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Speaker 2: I just simply asked a guy, would you like to

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have a discussion on this? And I get a wall

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of text about how I'm a piece of crap. Now

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I'm used to this. I don't really care. It's just

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so tiresome. It's so stupid because everyone knows this is

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at his hallowed halls of Anglican University, dumb that this

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is just how a debate goes and by the way,

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you are expected in academia to be able to defend

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your positions. Did you know that if you have to

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defend your thesis, you go before a board of professors

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who quiz you, and you argue your thesis. Now, I

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know a lot of you don't know that. You didn't

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go to grad school, but you do this. It's normal.

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It's part of educated academia, even if the rest of

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the soy populace doesn't know that or things this is mean.

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I watched the dumbest debate I've ever seen in my

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life last night, and I'm mad at myself because I

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watched the whole thing. I watched two of the stupidest

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people I've ever seen. Worse than t don't worse than

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anybody else you've ever seen a debate. I didn't block

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you for nothing, man. People that talk smack and won't debate,

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they get blocked people like we are you flustered? You

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block people? Yeah? When a person won't come and have

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a discussion and defend a position, I blocked them absolutely

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because I don't care. I'm not You're You're canceled out

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of my respect for you, because it means that you

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can't defend the position. Educated people are supposed to be

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able to engage in critical thinking, analysis, logic, rhetoric. They're

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able to handle pushback, they're able to handle discussion. Yes,

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the debate it was absolutely worse. I'm not kidding the

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what's her name? Not so erudite and that boomer veteran

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debating Jake Riddle, Snake and Jim Bob on feminism was

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the worst debate I've ever heard in my life. I've

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never heard anyone be so dumb, and I've never heard

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the stupidest arguments beyond that in my life. I mean,

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it was just it was next level, the dumbest debate ever.

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So this is what people think is debating. They think

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it's arguing, they think it's yappin', they think it's just

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I don't know, Flair, who knows. But I don't feel

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bad for just simply asking people to come have a discussion.

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And a lot of people treat they think this is

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an insult. They think, oh, I'm beyond that, how dare you?

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And I don't know anything about Calvin Robinson other than that, okay,

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one time he was out a thing and there was

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Father Josiah there, and then he's at this other thing

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and Pearson's there. Okay, well that's great, but I mean,

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it's why is it even a big deal? All you

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gotta do is say no, I'm not interested. Okay, fair enough.

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You don't need a litany of insult to the person

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who's just simply asking you to have a formal debate.

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It's weird, it's it's a weird, sanctimonious I'm so much

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better than you that how dare you? How dare you right?

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Like Bill Clinton level stuff? Again, no one at this

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level is hurt or scared or crying and freaking out

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about oh my feelings? Oh my god? How dare you

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speak to me? I have four hundred thousand followers? How

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dare you even message me? Honestly?

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Speaker 7: Honestly?

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Speaker 2: I mean, haven't we all had it all?

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Speaker 4: The four horus mithress. They are all the same. No, no,

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not all the same. They all disagree with you. They

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must be wrong. They can't all be right. This is

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the staff of sixth form debate. That has been nothing

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serious said against you.

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Speaker 2: See that more jobs, my opponents are sixth graders whatever

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sixth form is. I'm assuming in weird hogwarts Land, that

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that's sixth grade. I don't know, but England is basically

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hogwarts if you don't know, so I'm assuming sixth form

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is some low level grade of education, right under a

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motorized Rollingham class or whatever. Again, the old debate is

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just his opening statement, and it's not all rhetoric, but

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there's some rhetoric, okay, And we've got people out here

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that literally think that any rhetoric is anti Christian.

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Speaker 8: How dare you say such a thing?

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, now I'm not gonna apologize for just simply

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asking people if they like to have a formal debate.

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And I don't feel bad about that, and I shouldn't

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feel bad. This is stupid, man. It's people are just

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freaking cry bully babies. You remember last time we had

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this event, he tried to mog me and he lost.

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My comments had like ten times more than his. This

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is He's like, well, I mogged you, and then I

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had like ten times more than him. So it's like

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he even got mogged in his petty attempting at mogging me,

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which was funny. But I don't like you'll notice in

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the case of Dasha, Dasha had some decent questions She

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wasn't the best debater, but she was less afraid than

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any of these gigantic pop apologists vaginas, and that's what

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they are, the world of the pap apologists are literally

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the biggest vaginas out there. And I don't care. I

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don't care if they think that. I'm mean, do you

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think has anything made me change my mo?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: But I mean the dms usually are almost always pretty civil.

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He let loose a walle text, baham a bad person.

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It's all a ruse, that's your stick. It's a game.

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And oh it's all bait. And I mean, is it bait?

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When I was out there debating the top Muslims with

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Sam Schimun getting three to five million views, that's all

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just a bait. It's just I don't know. We'll open

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it up because that's all I have to say on

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that matter. You can go watch the rest of Christopher

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Hitchens just giving me a kind of basic procedures and

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examples of what normal debate is. Now, if all you

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do is an insult, then that's not a real debate, right,

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you can't be all rhetoric. But the thing is about debate.

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The assumption is that the audience is intelligent enough to

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figure out if you're all hot air and rhetoric and

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no substance. Maybe it's not that way anymore. Maybe everybody's

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too stupid now. I don't know, but our buddy here, Amateure,

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wanted to come discuss. What's up? Man gotta I'm mute, dog?

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Speaker 5: Oh can you hear me?

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Speaker 2: What's hey?

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me on. Yeah. First, just want to

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say I.

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Speaker 9: Can't believe how hard Dush destroyed you last night with

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the Slavic mind argument.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was uh, it was fun. But the

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weirdest part was everyone's reaction.

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Speaker 5: To it, Like, yeah, they were all tweaking.

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Speaker 9: I mean, they must have missed the part where she

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was like smoking indoors and also beautiful, so therefore she wins.

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But uh, yeah, I agree with you about the importance

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to debate and everything Like debate brought me out of

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the Jehovah's Witnesses to atheism finally to Christianity, and I

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think that now that's bringing a lot of people to

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Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 5: It seems like everybody's freaking out, and.

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Speaker 9: I think it's really telling about the spiritual relativism about

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our times. But my main question or debate wanted to

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be about the Orthodox history of England, okay, and I

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mean my first assertion about it would be, I think

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the burden of proof flies with you to.

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Speaker 5: Prove that England was Orthodox at some point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not an English historian, but I think if

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you look to you know the way that the Church

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is described in you know, Venerable bead Or. You know

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when even when Augustine comes to England, not Augustine and

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Pitpo the other Augustine the Canterbury, you don't find the

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Vatican one attitude and mindset. And just like with the

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Church in France, you know, the tradition there is to

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not have the philioque to recite the Creed the traditional

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way that the Orthodox Church does. And so no, I

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would actually argue that the default position prior to you know,

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ten sixty six would be that it's the Orthodox.

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Speaker 9: So the Orthodox Church broke with the Catholic Church in

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ten sixty six, Great Skins every.

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Speaker 2: Ten fifty four, ten sixty six is the Norman invasion,

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that's right, that's.

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Speaker 5: Right, my bad, So no communion between the two.

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Speaker 9: However, the Church of England only broke away and broke

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communion with the Roman Church in the fifteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: You miss, You miss what I argued though. My argument

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was that the faith of England prior to ten fifty four,

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prior to ten sixty six is the identical synodal faith

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that does not confess Philly oakuay and does not confess

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papal teachings until later down the road when that's enforced

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upon England. That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 9: Okay, So your argument is that the Norman invasion is

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the primary force.

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Speaker 2: That's one period, right, Well, that's one period when you

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when you have phases moving in that direction. I don't

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believe that this like night and day. It's not like

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there was one day where everybody in England suddenly woke up,

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Oh we're all in excuse them now, because if you

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look at the way the promulgation of things like lions

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and Florence happened, is that it takes time for those

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things to you know, promulgate throughout a lot of lands,

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whether it's you know, uniate Ish areas, Romania, Transylvania, a

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lot of those places were kind of ambiguous for many centuries,

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even like in the time of a Lad the Impaler.

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It's kind of unclear whether Vlad was Orthodox or Uniate.

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So there's no it's not a black and white thing.

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It's rather that it takes time for it to kind

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of be received everywhere. So I couldn't tell you an

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exact date as to when the entire you know, Church

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of England went from Orthodox England to Papal England, but

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it would it would be during these centuries of tenth, eleventh, twelve.

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I do recall that the invested your controversy, especially with

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you know, Thomas Beckett. You know, that played a big

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role in the papacy taking over churches in places like

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France and England because a lot of the bishops were

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still being installed and appointed by the kings, and so

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there was this it's called the investiture controversy, right, So

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that's the period I would say when the papacy makes

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its move to solidify control. And another way to see

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this is that are you aware that it's pretty universally

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known that before the Gregorian Reforms and up into the

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twelve thirteen hundreds, the Bishop of Rome doesn't confirm every

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bishop in the world. It's a local affair. That's something

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that changes after the Gregorian reforms. So that also shows

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you that the structure of the ecclesiology of the church

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was not papal.

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Speaker 9: Okay, I mean, I think my respect on to that

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in my kind of argument hinges on the fact that

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they were in communion with Rome before and after.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but so was the Orthodox Church. That how does

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that prove anything?

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Speaker 9: Well, it proves something because even after the schism, they

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still are theologically consistent with Rome.

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Speaker 2: More so than that just means that they accepted the

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Roman position.

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Speaker 5: Right, So it does it?

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Speaker 2: How does that prove that they always believed the Roman

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position when I just gave you an example from ecclesiology

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where they didn't.

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Speaker 5: So even before.

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Speaker 10: What is it?

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Speaker 9: So when Augustine came, there was an insular form of

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Christianity there and it was different in liturgical practice to.

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Speaker 5: Both the Roman right and the Orthodox right.

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Speaker 2: So I don't really understand you're misunderstanding. There's the Orthodox

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Church is not an Orthodox right. It is a confession

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about the faith, the Niceno constabulating Creed, a communion based

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around canons and the sacraments, and it's a decentralized, snodal church.

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So that is the Orthodox Church. And so the mere fact,

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for example, that there is no Vatican One papism in

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the first thousand years also proves my point.

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Speaker 5: Okay, it's fair enough.

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Speaker 2: I mean, do you understand the argument that I'm making.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, getting, I'm getting it now. I'm seeing where you're

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coming from.

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Speaker 9: Uh yeah, that's I mean, that's why my Twitter handles

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amateur meditations. You know, I'm not very like learned on

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this type of stuff or anything, but I thought.

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Speaker 5: I'd give it a shot.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a similar situation in France, like the Church

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prior to That's why you have these debates, and that's

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why there's things like Gallicanism is like there's this holdover

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of the older sinodal tradition that Papism had to conquer

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all the way up until the modern era, where you

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still have French Catholics who still have a degree of

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resistance to the papacy. Snag that you want to speak

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to that.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, So it's important to distinguish being community with Rome

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and even revering Rome because it's an ancient sea in

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Roman Catholicism even after the schism. So I'm not quite sure,

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but the ten sixty six state, because it's based on

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the idea that the paperc said that William the Conqueror

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could conquer. But if you look before that, you you

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will be able to say, look the English and arts

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during the eptarchies that were really influenced by Charlemaine. But

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does it mean Roman Catholicism. No, Charlemagne like was fine

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with of course, like you believed in the Philoque, but

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it was fine with rejecting councils that room accepted. And

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if you go even further, you have, of course, what

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you call the insular form of Christianity. In England, it

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disappeared a bit over time, but if you look at Ireland,

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for example, it's it's we're a lot of sources from Ireland,

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because monks from Ireland were called to re evangelize parts

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of western Europe, western eastern France and northern northern France.

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And you have people like Saint Columbanus who have no

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problem thing that Rome Matthew sixteen eighteen the Seed of Peter,

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but also in the same letters as that in the

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same letter were caused the Seal of Peter unblemish. He

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said that previous popes were heretics and and could be replaced,

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and synod can be called against them, and even the

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subordinates could judge them if they are heretics.

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Speaker 5: So you're already really far from Trent Vatican One and that.

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Speaker 9: Okay, Okay, I kind of see the argument everything, and

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I do agree that popes can't be heretics and everything,

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and I see where you're all coming from.

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Speaker 2: Something that I think before let me ask you question

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of that, because do you think that Vatican one argues

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or posits that a valid pope can be a heretic.

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Speaker 9: Hey, I'll be completely honest, I've never read Vatican One

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in its entirety.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it says that Rome is promised to be

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the center, the source, and the preserver of unity until

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the end of the world. So how you could have

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a defectible pope who is at the same time indefectible

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is to me just doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 12: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean, even in the even Peter in the Bible

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was corrected by Paul and everything. But I mean, you

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know that's.

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Speaker 2: Different than in Roman Catholic canon law. You said a heretic.

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Now Peter fell into error and was corrected, but a

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heretic in Roman Calviolic canon law is a canonical penalty,

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and that penalty has certain automatic things that occur taste cententia,

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which is if so facto excommunication, that means without pronouncement.

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And so if the pope were a heretic, which is

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what you had said, then he would no longer be

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a member of the church, and thus he could not

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be a head of that which he is not a member.

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Speaker 9: So my response to that would be, during the times

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of Israel and the kings of Israel, there were several

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kings that were obviously incredibly wicked and deposed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a common Protestant style Roman Catholic style analogy,

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and this misses the point of Pentecost. The Church is

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not one hu of percent identical to the structure of Israel.

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The kings in Israel do not have the Keroism of Peter,

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so you can it's a false analogy to compare that

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to the papacy and a lineage of popes who are

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bi Vatican one said to be indefectible and the supreme

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teaching authority for all Christians.

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Speaker 13: In the world.

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Speaker 2: That's a total false equivalent see post Pentecost.

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Speaker 9: So would the office of the Bishop of Rome become

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completely invalid through if one pope or another pope became

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a hairtaker.

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Speaker 5: Spoke heir.

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Speaker 2: I just think that the Roman Catholic position is inconsistent

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because it claims on the one hand that the Roman

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Church is indefectible, and then it also admits that there

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have been heterodox popes like Honoius. So that's that's the contradiction.

428
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It's two competing claims which don't make sense. About the

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office of the papacy. It doesn't matter whether you say that, well,

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the office is still infallible, but the people who hold

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the office are the ones that are heretics. Now, it's

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a living magisterium in its own definition, so you can't

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separate the office. It's distinct, but you can't separate the

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office from the person holding the office. That's why the

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pope judges the tradition, not you, judging the pope on

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the base of tradition. So a lot of trad cats,

437
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a lot of Roman Catholues, get this backwards. They think

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they can judge the pope's fidelity to tradition. No, No,

439
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the pope is the supreme judge of tradition, not you.

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Speaker 5: So isn't it correct if I'm wrong?

441
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Speaker 9: But isn't it that it's ex cath when the pope

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speaks that he's infallible, and like only when a council

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is actually called and he presides on.

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Speaker 2: It's not true. It's just a myth that Roman Catholics

445
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constantly say. I'm not trying to be rude to you.

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Ex cathedral is just one of the means or forms

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of pronouncing infallible dogma. But that is not all that

448
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a Roman Catholic is bound to. In fact, you are

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bound to all of the ordinary teaching, even the teaching

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that's fallible because of the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff.

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So it's the ordinary magisterium. Yeah. Right, So, and I'm

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going to pull up because I'm not singling you are

453
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being rude to you. But many Roman Catholics continue to

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push this. And I'm going to show you five places

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in Denzinger that condemned the position that you're only bound

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by ex cathedra statements. You ready canon said. I've got

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seven fifty two, so that's the last one. So Denzinger

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eighteen thirty, Denzinger sixteen eighty three, Denzinger seventeen twenty two,

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Dinzinger seventeen ninety two and Canon seven fifty two of

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the modern Canon law. So those all tell you that no,

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it is actually a condemned position to say I am

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only bound by ex cathedra. That literally is condemned.

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Speaker 5: Okay, interesting, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 9: Would you say that there could be a time in

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the future that the Bishop of Rome and the Orthodox

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Church could come into a harmony.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Bishop of Rome rejected all of the thirty

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plus erroneous things that they believe.

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Speaker 5: Okay, all right, Hey, well, I appreciate you having me on.

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Speaker 14: Great question, all my friends.

471
00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:15,519
Speaker 5: I was gonna get dunked on, but I was going

472
00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:16,480
to give it a shot, you know.

473
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: So appreciate I appreciate you being civil. And it was

474
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,440
a great conversation. And uh, it's actually refreshing to have

475
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:25,480
that kind of a conversation as opposed to you know,

476
00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:27,640
a lot of what we get THEO what's up?

477
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:27,839
Speaker 1: Man?

478
00:29:31,559 --> 00:29:33,359
Speaker 2: So again, I want people to understand that this is

479
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,599
a never ending, never dying trad myth that they think

480
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,440
that they're only bound to quote a handful of ex

481
00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:46,200
cathedral statements. Again, here is the list, and by the way,

482
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,200
I've sent this to Shimoun and everybody because he says

483
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,440
the same stuff, because he hears all bractor whoever repeat

484
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:57,799
this stuff. And you know, it's funny because I don't

485
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:00,759
think I've encountered a single rooman Catholic apologies. There may

486
00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:04,160
be one, but I'm not encountered one that actually knows

487
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,680
Danzinger inside or out. And I'm not trying to be arrogant,

488
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,759
but I do. So they never go to their quote

489
00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:14,799
sources of Catholic dogma. Isn't that interesting? I got a

490
00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:17,079
bunch of a pop apologist out here talking about a

491
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:19,720
bunch of nonsense and this and that quote and this

492
00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:22,359
and that theological Why wouldn't they be familiar with Danzinger?

493
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:23,720
Do the didn't even know what it is? I mean,

494
00:30:23,759 --> 00:30:24,200
it's weird.

495
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,599
Speaker 11: It's also it runs contradictorily to the historical case of

496
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,920
trying to make because they will go into history say

497
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,880
we'll look at every single letter sent or received by

498
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,680
your pope and said, looky, he says this is a

499
00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:40,759
fort An order, and everybody obeyed, and you know, even

500
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:46,000
when it's not real. Yeah, but that's the case that

501
00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:49,160
make historically, that's from for easam All Libara tried to make.

502
00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:52,279
Speaker 5: This case or they tried to make it with just

503
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:53,920
some friendly less.

504
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 11: As if it's a direct rule that everybody followed, and

505
00:30:58,559 --> 00:31:02,039
then when they have faced with it in reality, in

506
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,880
the real life, no I don't follow it.

507
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: What's up to you? Deal Hoxtable? What's up there on you?

508
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:12,519
Speaker 5: Oh?

509
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:13,759
Speaker 10: Hello, love, guys.

510
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:19,079
Speaker 8: Log I think I've been callowing you for many years.

511
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,119
Speaker 15: I'm a huge.

512
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 8: Admirer of yours and all of you guys and your work.

513
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,359
I have learned so many things by your side, truly.

514
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,319
Speaker 2: So my question was that I.

515
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 15: Read recently a book by jan Aras. I'm from Greece,

516
00:31:39,119 --> 00:31:45,519
and he was talking inside this book about Orthodoxy.

517
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 8: And it is between.

518
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:54,359
Speaker 15: Orthodoxy and the West, and he was describing like history,

519
00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:02,880
mostly in some ecclesiology, and he was describing a situation

520
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,440
where the Greek Church like started to become more Protestant,

521
00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:12,599
but in their fronima, not in their official doctrine.

522
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have all the systematic theologies of Greek theologians

523
00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:23,000
from the eighteen hundreds and it reads like Thomas Aquinas

524
00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:28,799
or it reads like a Protestant systematic theology. Yeah. So yeah,

525
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,480
the West and they had a similar situation in Russia

526
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,279
in the seventeen hundreds. The West was very influential in

527
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,519
these countries at different times. But by the way, I

528
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:41,400
would not recommend Nars. He's got some pretty wild out

529
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:42,680
there liberal positions.

530
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,799
Speaker 15: Actually what troubled me is this, well he this book

531
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,359
like Orthodoxy, and this book is called Orthodoxy and the

532
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,799
West in Modern Degrees.

533
00:32:55,279 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 8: It has like some okay, it describes this.

534
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: This party.

535
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,039
Speaker 16: Event, I mean, the protestantization of the influence by.

536
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 17: The worst pretty well.

537
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,079
Speaker 8: But he falls victim to.

538
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:15,359
Speaker 16: Another another issue, and that's that's nationalism.

539
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 5: Like he gives very much.

540
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 16: He totally ignores nationalist.

541
00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 5: And he focuses on these specifics.

542
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,599
Speaker 16: So I'm also wondering if nationalism is also as an ideology,

543
00:33:31,599 --> 00:33:34,160
like like it goes, we can't with this.

544
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,079
Speaker 2: With this event with Protestantism, I mean it could. I

545
00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:44,640
mean modern nationalism is out of the you know, French

546
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,599
Revolution Enlightenment ideology, so it definitely could become an idol.

547
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,640
But there's also a way to have, you know, a

548
00:33:53,839 --> 00:33:59,200
Christian nation without it being an idol. Lewis, I don't

549
00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:03,039
understand why you're like, what did I say that's even controversial?

550
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,000
I mean I think that the model traditionally is you know,

551
00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:11,320
ethnos and people groups and them having kind of their

552
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,480
own autocephalos you could say, governance, and then you can

553
00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:19,480
have the Orthodox imperium, which integrates and tries to be

554
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,159
a balance of the one in the many. But I

555
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:29,119
don't think that orthodox or that nationalism is inherently Protestant,

556
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,440
nor is it inherently an idol. It just can be

557
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:36,519
go ahead Lewis.

558
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 18: Yeah, sorry, I wasn't plumbing you down.

559
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I thought you were like calling me out.

560
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,159
I was like, here we go.

561
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 17: No, I was just disagreeing with the idea that nationalism

562
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:57,639
was as in like I like Protestantism's because like the idea, okay,

563
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,280
find like nationalism was what caused Protestantism.

564
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 5: But I think the kind of nationalism that has some involvement.

565
00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 17: With Protestantism, like for example, with the Church of England,

566
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,360
I think that's like pre Enlightenment. So I'm not disagreeing

567
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,599
with nationalism. Post enlignment is a problem, but I think

568
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,239
like pre Enlightenment nationalism, which is just a love for

569
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,880
your own people and your own in group and not

570
00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:29,480
wanting foreign powers, which was what the papacy was influencing

571
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:33,239
your like being this fifth column in your nation. I

572
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,440
think that's I think that's good and natural. So I

573
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,239
don't blame Kenry the eighth for being like I think

574
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,199
it was. I think it was, you know, wrong for

575
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,400
some reasons. But I also think the papacy was stupid

576
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,760
to not just play real politic with his situation and like,

577
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,920
you know, have all this influence, and obviously he was

578
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:56,559
gonna be like, well.

579
00:35:56,519 --> 00:35:57,079
Speaker 5: I don't want this.

580
00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:02,079
Speaker 11: Means that we're playing real politic against him.

581
00:36:05,559 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 14: Yeah, right, yeah.

582
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,039
Speaker 2: I think Snack has commented on I mean Francis even recently,

583
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,920
like like Francis saying everybody in your Europe and American

584
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,760
needs have open borders. I mean that's a subversive foreign entity.

585
00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 17: Like well, a lot of a lot of NGOs, A

586
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:30,280
lot of NGOs that fund and support mass migration are.

587
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: So called Christian, yeah, and Roman Catholic, especially Catholic charities, yeah,

588
00:36:37,639 --> 00:36:40,039
and other Middle Eastern nations, as I'm sure we all know.

589
00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:42,800
But you can support the stream via super chests there.

590
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,719
Thank you to Lewis and Snag there for those good comments. Now,

591
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,079
I think we have a real Catholic who wants to

592
00:36:47,159 --> 00:37:02,280
discuss what's up man you got an immune. Hello, Hey,

593
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:03,599
hey Dan, what's up?

594
00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:06,519
Speaker 8: I am a few days ago.

595
00:37:06,519 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 19: I think I might have Misshargie, but I got the

596
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,280
impression that you were saying that the logical position for

597
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,519
a Roman Catholic would be to be set of accountais.

598
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think that both set of a

599
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:27,360
constiest and uh, you know normal Novasorto Catholics are both

600
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,119
right and both wrong. So if you wanted to be

601
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:33,519
if you're talking about the Dasha debate, I was saying

602
00:37:33,599 --> 00:37:36,599
that if she was consistent with her critiques of Francis,

603
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,920
then she would have to be set of a conciss.

604
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 8: Sure, but I think that that also touched a bit

605
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,239
on your joint base.

606
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 3: Jo.

607
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,639
Speaker 8: Anyway, Jay, I thank you impression that you.

608
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,639
Speaker 19: Got into Roman Catholic of him and you started to

609
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,519
question like the paper feat Thatcher.

610
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a period where I was tradcat Latin

611
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,840
Mass doubted Vatican two absolutely.

612
00:38:01,199 --> 00:38:04,159
Speaker 19: With you consider arguing in favor of athetical countering against

613
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,760
like a Artican chie complaining Catholicism. I mean, I know

614
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,719
used for Orthodoxy, but I say orstdoxy wasn't an option,

615
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,239
and you were talking to women Catholic, would you say

616
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,079
that there should be a set of cannabis.

617
00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 7: Well not now.

618
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: I mean I would have said that maybe in two

619
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:28,280
thousand and six, But why would I Why do you

620
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,039
want to argue with me from two thousand and six?

621
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:31,400
Why not me right now?

622
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,559
Speaker 8: I guess it was a really curious position.

623
00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:39,159
Speaker 19: And I guess it kind of gets into the interpretation

624
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,599
of bacon cheese text because I actually used to.

625
00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 8: Be a set of cantabas at one point. Oh so, yeah,

626
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:47,800
So when I heard like bacon che.

627
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,559
Speaker 19: Texts being described like a break in the face for example,

628
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,320
that immediately alerted me, and I was very curious on

629
00:38:56,599 --> 00:39:00,360
the details a bit like, you know, it's a particular document,

630
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,159
good points, and say this section here with break with

631
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:04,360
traditional college ete.

632
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll give you one example beyond no stra

633
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,000
taught there or something like that. I mean, the statements

634
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:14,880
on religious liberty, freedom of conscious, freedom of worship, I

635
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,760
would argue, are completely contrary to the medieval teaching of

636
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,480
the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop, which in when

637
00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:24,639
I'm sanctum is made necessary for salvation.

638
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 8: I mean, I'm not not too familiar with that particular document.

639
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:37,679
Speaker 19: For me, said come Demangentia which made some similar arguments

640
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,039
about religious liberty.

641
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: Well, well, hold on. So it's crucial to this argument

642
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,639
that you understand what that is. So in thirteen eighty two,

643
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,480
thirteen oh two, excuse me, Pope Boniface the eight pronounced

644
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,519
a famous document. It's not very long as when I'm sanctum,

645
00:39:55,519 --> 00:39:59,320
and it's about, on the one hand, the spiritual authority

646
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,320
of the papers, but it's also about the universal temporal

647
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,360
supremacy of the papacy, in that he is also the

648
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:11,199
king of kings and head of all world rulers. And

649
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,480
it mandates that not only must you believe in the

650
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,719
spiritual supremacy of the Roman Bishop, you must also believe

651
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,960
in his temporal power and authority to be saved. That's

652
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,440
the last paragraph of the document. And if you recall,

653
00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:29,519
I'm sure you know as a tradcat that the pope

654
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:32,119
used to wear a triple crown, right, and that signified

655
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,719
that authority. The post Vatican two popes no longer wear

656
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,079
that triple crown. Vatican two, under the influence of Jacques

657
00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:45,880
Martain and others who were Americanists and essentially pluralists, promoted

658
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,400
and passed the idea via via dignitatis humane and the

659
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,360
other statements about religious liberty that now promote pluralism and

660
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:03,039
essentially a egalitarian, open society approach to religion and not

661
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,840
the preference of a Christian state. In fact, Benedicta sixteenth

662
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,639
even said that in some of the countries in Europe

663
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,480
they need to be de Christianized. So to me, that's

664
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,920
just absolutely completely the kill shot opposite position.

665
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:25,079
Speaker 8: I mean, I have read in Basancy documents.

666
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 19: I'm not trying to share refection, but there is an

667
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,079
argument that the state should permit religious liberty participants.

668
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to be rude, but did you hear

669
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:35,840
anything that I argue?

670
00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:39,199
Speaker 3: Yeah?

671
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah.

672
00:41:40,159 --> 00:41:41,679
Speaker 2: Could you repeat what I argued?

673
00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 19: Did you saying that in Geno Fountain there is the

674
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:53,280
idea that the papacy, kim king, et.

675
00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 8: Cetera, and.

676
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 5: The state is required to.

677
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 8: I made a Catholic.

678
00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 19: Religion which had been abandoned in paid by Spanie.

679
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 2: I mean, basically, but it's stronger than that, because the

680
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,039
unham sanctum dogma is that to be saved you must

681
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:18,599
also confess the temporal power and supremacy of the Roman bishop.

682
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:22,719
And with the pronunciations and promulgations of that I can

683
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,280
choose religious liberty doctrines. That is no longer believed, nor

684
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,519
is it required. Nor have I heard of any Roman

685
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:32,239
Catholic church in the world that tells me that I

686
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,000
have to believe in the temporal supremacy to be saved anymore.

687
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 19: Okay, I mean that, I mean that that kind of

688
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:55,360
gets somewhere, like, I don't think by scontigue arguing.

689
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 5: He can be saved if church.

690
00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 2: No, no, no, See, it's not a question of inside

691
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,280
outside the church salvation. It's a question of the dogma

692
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,440
of the temporal supremacy and power of the Roman Bishop

693
00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:15,000
was necessary as a belief for salvation in thirteen oh two,

694
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:19,239
it's no longer necessary. Therefore, Roman Catholic dogma changes and contradicts.

695
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,079
Speaker 19: I'd say it is necessary any gay.

696
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,119
Speaker 2: So you're telling me that post Vatican Two, the Roman

697
00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:32,480
Catholic Church still confesses that the Pope is a world

698
00:43:32,599 --> 00:43:34,719
emperor and world leader and the head of all states.

699
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 8: That post be in that language.

700
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: They don't believe that contradiction is opposite. No, of course,

701
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,079
it is to say that the states need to be decatholicized,

702
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:57,000
and that the Church now promotes religious pluralism in modern

703
00:43:57,079 --> 00:43:59,880
society is the opposite of saying that you have to

704
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:02,199
believe in the temporal supremacy to be saved.

705
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:06,119
Speaker 10: I don't.

706
00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:09,119
Speaker 8: I don't think fake. I mean, if you think the

707
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,639
states the purpose of state is chief force.

708
00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 2: Everyone to be safe, again, that's nothing to do. Did

709
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,559
I say anything about the state force of people to

710
00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:19,920
be saved? So now you're going off into red herrings

711
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:20,559
and straw man.

712
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 19: But I'm just trying to make the connection because you're

713
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,840
just saying that the bath can chieve permitted religious liberty.

714
00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:32,119
Speaker 2: And that's not compatible with the temporal supremacy, that the

715
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:39,880
pope is the head of all world rulers. I think

716
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,239
it is okay, Well, yeah, you can think that. And

717
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,440
tell me where in the Roman Catholic world today you

718
00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:48,280
find any Roman Catholics in communion with the with Rome

719
00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:50,360
that teach the temporal supremacy.

720
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,039
Speaker 8: A sure, sure, I mean, I get back to that.

721
00:44:57,199 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 19: I mean, but what I wanted to highlight them, if

722
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:06,800
I may diverge a bit, was for me said counting

723
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,719
them with Bilsom, reading bascant texts and seeing miss contradiction

724
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,400
with the tradition of face, which kind of quite a

725
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:19,159
way coming from Jay, But what I read was commentaries

726
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:20,400
on bascan.

727
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 2: Cheat or commentaries fallible or infallible.

728
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,119
Speaker 10: They're fallible, but they teach you the interpretation of the text.

729
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 2: So in other words, the way that romancallic dogma works

730
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,679
is that the final arbiter, which is the infallible dogmas,

731
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:42,920
now need interpretive contexts that are fallible. So what use

732
00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:45,800
was the infallible dogmas if I need the fallible now

733
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:46,719
to make sense of it?

734
00:45:48,679 --> 00:45:51,039
Speaker 19: Well, it was infallible in the sense that the person

735
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:55,079
who promagulated it meant meant it, and the debate is

736
00:45:55,199 --> 00:45:56,480
really about you know what.

737
00:45:56,679 --> 00:45:58,119
Speaker 8: Was meant by the question?

738
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 2: So infallible dogmas don't to resolve the issue.

739
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 8: Like that understand now?

740
00:46:06,599 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: Oh so, what use then, is the purpose of the

741
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,719
infallible dogmas? When I thought their purpose was to solve.

742
00:46:12,559 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 19: The issue, Well, then they do so the issue you

743
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,639
understand it correctly, which is the purpose of the commentaries

744
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:20,920
to help you understand.

745
00:46:20,559 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 2: What they do solve the issue with the foul. So again,

746
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,039
they don't solve the issue if they require fallible commentators

747
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:28,639
to explain it.

748
00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, they say they sold the issue, but if you

749
00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:35,360
understand it correctly.

750
00:46:35,519 --> 00:46:38,559
Speaker 2: Okay, that's what's in question. So you're just repeating your

751
00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:48,119
position over again. Okay, I mean, look, I'm try'n to

752
00:46:48,119 --> 00:46:50,239
be rude, but let's let's pause it there because I

753
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,079
don't want to have this go in a bad direction

754
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,199
and have a you know, you know I wanted to

755
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,519
Let's let's just stop it there because we want to

756
00:46:59,519 --> 00:47:04,000
be cool. Alaska. What's up man? Now, you're welcome to

757
00:47:04,039 --> 00:47:06,800
come back, go read some books and come back, but

758
00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:11,280
we're going to try to have it as cordial and

759
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:16,800
friendly as possible. What's up, man, I'm Alaska.

760
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 5: Principle.

761
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 2: Are you there? Can you hear me? What's up? Man?

762
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 5: Can you hear me? Oh?

763
00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 3: Yeah?

764
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 5: I just had like a small question because I'm not sure.

765
00:47:35,079 --> 00:47:37,320
I am a very new Orthodox.

766
00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:40,519
Speaker 20: Cate of Cuman, and I had a question about the

767
00:47:40,639 --> 00:47:46,800
Coptic Church because if I understand it correctly, they were

768
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,159
like the first schism with the Church because of the

769
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:52,760
natures of Christ, right.

770
00:47:53,079 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 2: I mean there were prior to that. I mean thenovationists,

771
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,400
the donutists are prior to that. But go ahead.

772
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:02,559
Speaker 20: Yeah, I just wanted to ask about it because I

773
00:48:02,639 --> 00:48:05,519
was wishing this video with this like Coptic monk, and he.

774
00:48:05,679 --> 00:48:06,559
Speaker 2: Was like really cool.

775
00:48:06,639 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 20: I thought he was like really you know, saying some

776
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,000
really good stuff, you know, And so I wanted to

777
00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:15,039
ask your opinion about like is it heretical to church

778
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:15,920
or what's that?

779
00:48:16,159 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: Yes, unfortunately they're heterodox. And you can go to my

780
00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:22,960
channel where we have two of our ongoing series up

781
00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:27,239
with me Kai and David rhun As. We're walking through

782
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,639
Eastern or semi Oriental claims. We will be back to

783
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,920
that in the next few weeks, I think now that

784
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:37,920
Kai is back from his honeymoon. Now, guys, we're looking

785
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:42,440
for people who disagree. So I appreciate the Orthodox catechumen questions,

786
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:44,000
and I'm not trying to be rude to you, but

787
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,679
it's very clearly today listed as debate between Protestant, Catholic

788
00:48:48,679 --> 00:48:52,599
and Orthodox. So if you've got basic level catechumen questions,

789
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,960
please take those to your catechist and take that to

790
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,800
your priest, because you're really just taking the way from

791
00:49:01,159 --> 00:49:03,880
what I want to direct today's discussion too, which is

792
00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:06,880
the issues of Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. So I know

793
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,840
you have diet questions, I know you have fasting questions.

794
00:49:10,199 --> 00:49:12,599
I know you have can law questions. I know you

795
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:18,280
have questions about you know whatever, Please not today. I'm

796
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,079
just not doing that today. And it's really annoying when

797
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:25,199
everyone calls in with the same FAQ questions. When we

798
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:33,119
do this, Greg, what's that man? Before Greg comes on,

799
00:49:33,199 --> 00:49:35,639
I want to note that, you know, there's this kind

800
00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:39,280
of goofy news story going around that all the CIA

801
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,920
do classify that they might have found the arc of

802
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,400
the Covenant and that was done with remote viewing. All

803
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,760
this stuff is stupid, Okay, just because something's declassified doesn't

804
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,760
mean that it's really what the CIA was up to. Okay,

805
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:58,519
they'll declassify anything that was classified for various reasons, even

806
00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:03,760
if it's just random journal, random speculative magazines, you're right,

807
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,519
like the one that mentions, you know, suppressed history or whatever.

808
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:12,559
It doesn't mean that it's true, especially if it's got stupid,

809
00:50:12,599 --> 00:50:14,920
you know, remote viewing type stuff in it. So people

810
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,199
are talking about although they think they found the Covenant. Now, okay,

811
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,599
maybe this is possible. I don't know, but I know

812
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,679
that in Jeremiah it's very clearly prophesied in the Messianic era,

813
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,280
and this is when the Gentiles convert this is whence.

814
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,320
So that's how we know it's the Messianic era. It

815
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,960
talks about the gentiles being gathered to Israel. That's the Church. Okay,

816
00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:43,159
that's not John Hagen's End Times thing in Palestine.

817
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 8: This is the Church.

818
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,599
Speaker 2: And it says it will come to pass that when

819
00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:52,199
you're a multiplied and increase in the land, they will

820
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,719
no longer say the arc of the Covenant. It will

821
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,960
not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor

822
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,239
will they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.

823
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,719
At that time, Jerusalem would be called the throat of

824
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,519
the Lord, and the gentiles will be gathered to it.

825
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:15,159
That's the Church, not flesh Israel. This is a prophecy

826
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:20,199
of the Messianic era. How do we know because the

827
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,440
gentiles are being brought in verse seventeen. One of the

828
00:51:24,559 --> 00:51:27,880
signs that we are in the Messianic Church Kingdom era

829
00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:33,239
is that we will not have or know about the

830
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,960
Ark of the Covenant, because the real arc of the

831
00:51:36,039 --> 00:51:40,599
Covenant is here, which is the Theo Tokos in Jesus's

832
00:51:40,639 --> 00:51:43,679
body himself and the Church and all of your bodies

833
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:49,559
are living arcs. So is it possible they could find

834
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,559
some ancient relic of the art guests possible, I guess,

835
00:51:55,559 --> 00:51:57,159
but we are not going to like.

836
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 7: Go back to.

837
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 2: Ceremonial Jewish temple worship like the premillennialists and the dispensationless thing.

838
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:16,360
What's up, Greg? I really enjoy your show, man.

839
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 8: I wanted to see if I could ask you a question.

840
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:25,559
Speaker 2: Okay, if this is a good argument against ps.

841
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 8: A and p s A.

842
00:52:31,079 --> 00:52:39,519
Speaker 3: Is I understand that penal substitutionary atonement the Yeah, the

843
00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:42,800
sin of Adam, the sin of man in general, incurs

844
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,920
an almost infinite wrath of the Father which Jesus has

845
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:47,360
to pay for.

846
00:52:47,679 --> 00:52:53,119
Speaker 2: Correct typically, Yeah, that would be agreed with. Classical process

847
00:52:53,159 --> 00:52:53,960
would agree with that, guess.

848
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:05,639
Speaker 3: So my question though, is wouldn't adam sin and even

849
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:10,119
my sin also be in the same affront to the

850
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:11,639
son as it is to the father?

851
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:20,039
Speaker 5: Yes, so who pays off the son?

852
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 2: Well, this is a point actually that we do make

853
00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:29,480
against penal substitutionary atonement in that it is a dieaddic

854
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:34,199
because you have this payment between two persons that neglects

855
00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:37,400
the third person, and by extension, it would neglect the

856
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,000
second person as well. So yes, this is a variation

857
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,360
on and I'm not trying to be rude or still

858
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,239
your thunder. But it's a variation on the argument that

859
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,400
we made many times. So there's nothing in the Godhead

860
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:51,280
that occurs that's just between two people, or to precuent me,

861
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,920
two persons, right, So anything that happens has to be triadic.

862
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,719
So you can't have you know, the Father damning the son. Okay,

863
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,119
what about the Holy Spirit? Is he not involved in this? Well?

864
00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:04,199
Like it makes no sense. So but I think you're

865
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,239
right to go that route too. It's another variation. But

866
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,639
also I think Protestants are just typically thinking of Jesus

867
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:17,599
as a quite a quasiti nestorian, just a man, right,

868
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,679
So I know they confess his divinity, but if you

869
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:24,519
think about it, ps A, it either requires a split

870
00:54:24,559 --> 00:54:28,199
of the trinity or to a dual subject Christology, which

871
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:35,440
is an historian appreciate it. Yeah, that's a great question.

872
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:50,119
You're you're on the right track, dog Lord Jays. Do

873
00:54:50,199 --> 00:54:52,199
you though have thoughts in the book Against All Heresies

874
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,440
by Saint Simon at Thessalonika? Stephen H Well, I know

875
00:54:55,559 --> 00:54:58,079
that one of the mods got the book and said

876
00:54:58,079 --> 00:54:59,800
it was really good, so I have it on my

877
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,480
I was on ta get list, but I don't have

878
00:55:01,599 --> 00:55:04,639
it yet. Intel While five dollars, great work, Jay, thank you,

879
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,119
keep up the excellent work. Bradymore is five dollars. What's up?

880
00:55:08,199 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 13: Jay?

881
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: I got your minute there to his book. I can't

882
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,519
wait to read it. Appreciate that. And I've gotten the

883
00:55:13,679 --> 00:55:17,639
more recent edition of Asster Hollywood three back from the publisher.

884
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,920
It's looking pretty sweet. I think it's going to be

885
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,599
pretty good, and that will be out actually hopefully sooner

886
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:28,800
than expected. You know, he had said originally anywhere from

887
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:33,079
July to September might even be out pretty soon. So

888
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,920
maybe even April May, that would be ideal. Evan, why

889
00:55:37,039 --> 00:55:41,639
won't you debate Jakkub? But why would I debate my superiors?

890
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:45,599
It's my job to submit to superior as an inferior.

891
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,000
Anonymous ten dollars two years ago, your videos help me

892
00:55:48,039 --> 00:55:50,760
take my first up to Orthodoxy. Next week, my family

893
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,480
and I will be joining the church. Thank you, Jay, Hey,

894
00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:54,840
thank you Anonymous. Appreciate that many years to you. John

895
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,880
Isaac two dollars. Yeah, cuh debate with Jakub for real again?

896
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,239
And I'm not going to debate my creator Ka Kavier

897
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:11,039
one dollar. You are accused in heresy fallacy A good one, dude,

898
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,760
you got me. He misspelled it though, because I think

899
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:20,280
you meant to say a cursed Lawrence John fifty n okas?

900
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:22,000
Is that North Korean money?

901
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 7: Knock?

902
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 2: Fifty knock. The Celtic Church was in contact with the

903
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:32,039
Desert Fathers. Also, Vikings were Orthodox being guards in Eastern Rome.

904
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,039
Make the connections for Calvin R. Was that the guy

905
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:41,400
that was in it earlier? Brandon five dollars, Thank you

906
00:56:41,519 --> 00:56:46,639
for pulling the stops on my journey to Rome. Some

907
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,920
of these things can no longer be unseen. Pope can

908
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:55,159
be infallible and ahertics simultaneously, exactly me and Eugene five dollars.

909
00:56:55,199 --> 00:56:57,760
Thank you so much. G. Twenty six five dollars. Thank

910
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,800
you for continually destroying these Romancaley probable positions, Glory of

911
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,400
the Fathers and Holy Spirit. Appreciate that G. Twenty six

912
00:57:03,559 --> 00:57:07,079
s S. Twenty one five dollars. Many Catholics are appealing

913
00:57:07,199 --> 00:57:10,639
lately to the essence inergy distinction to get around church contradictions.

914
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,400
Are they allowed to hold this? I don't understand how

915
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,400
that would get around contradictions. That makes no sense. I mean,

916
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,320
first of all, it'll be admitting what was more or

917
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,800
less denied in the condemnations of the Palamite Synods, and

918
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:30,199
what's condemned, you know, at Florence. So to turn around

919
00:57:30,199 --> 00:57:32,440
and say that, oh, now we believe in essence inergy sinction,

920
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:37,039
I mean the entire tone mistradition is going to reject

921
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:41,079
the essence center distinction. So I think that's just more

922
00:57:41,159 --> 00:57:43,559
absurdity of the room mecallity. But how is that going

923
00:57:43,639 --> 00:57:46,719
to help anybody say that dogma changes it? I mean

924
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,039
it sounds like they think the essence interitgsinction means that

925
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:51,559
God can change or it changes things or something. That's

926
00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:54,119
not what it means. Elias, what's up? We came a member,

927
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,599
maximum became a member? What's up?

928
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 7: Dude?

929
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 5: Ma?

930
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:06,559
Speaker 2: Since ten bucks? Thanks dude?

931
00:58:09,199 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 5: Uh?

932
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:19,079
Speaker 2: Lord Jays, you want to I mute? What's up? Are

933
00:58:19,119 --> 00:58:19,360
you there?

934
00:58:21,719 --> 00:58:22,199
Speaker 10: Can you hear me?

935
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:23,079
Speaker 2: What's up?

936
00:58:23,719 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 10: Okay?

937
00:58:24,159 --> 00:58:25,079
Speaker 5: Sir? Hi?

938
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:27,079
Speaker 7: Hey?

939
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 21: I was just watching your videos and going through the

940
00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:34,800
ps A something more similar to what the previous people

941
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,639
were talking about, and I had a question.

942
00:58:38,559 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 10: I've been studying this subject and looking for like like

943
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:53,639
answers and things like that. So when we say that.

944
00:58:56,199 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 21: There has to be a necessary split and the trend

945
00:59:00,079 --> 00:59:06,159
he if if Jesus was supposed to have the to

946
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:12,159
get upon himself the wrath of God, how is that

947
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:17,239
not how a Protestant is able to say the contrary

948
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,440
to that matter? I was watching your video where you

949
00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:27,679
were explaining James White book on that matter as well.

950
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,719
How is it that they cannot see that? And is

951
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,239
it that obvious?

952
00:59:34,119 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 2: Or Protestants don't have very good trinitarian theology, so they

953
00:59:41,679 --> 00:59:45,800
in the Reformation they defaulted to the Latin Augustinian model

954
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:50,920
of the trinity. They don't have the monarchical trinitarian model

955
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,519
that we have, and they don't, by extension then have

956
00:59:55,920 --> 01:00:01,280
the right toolkit for really distinct persons, and so person

957
01:00:01,559 --> 01:00:04,880
kind of gets collapsed into essence or nature in the

958
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,159
Protestant view, just like it does in the traditional Latin

959
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:13,239
Roman Catholic position via Augustine and so an aquinas. So

960
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,159
if you don't have that right toolkit, that's why you

961
01:00:16,199 --> 01:00:19,960
see the Tomuss. They don't think that the Theophanes are possible.

962
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,480
They don't think that the Angel Lord is the second person,

963
01:00:22,519 --> 01:00:24,719
that Godhead, even though it's obvious in the New Testament

964
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:27,679
that he is because Jesus identifies himself as that, and

965
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,480
he's even worshiped and called you know, yahweh and so

966
01:00:31,639 --> 01:00:34,039
forth throughout the Old Testament. They just can't fathom this

967
01:00:34,159 --> 01:00:37,639
because they have a metaphysical system that prevents them from

968
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,280
believing that. And it's the same with Protestants, except it's

969
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,119
not so much a metaphysical system as it is the

970
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,760
baggage of what they think these terms and these systems

971
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,400
mean that prevent them from seeing that it makes no

972
01:00:51,559 --> 01:00:54,239
sense from a trinitarian perspective to say that the father

973
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:56,639
damns the son. It's just stupid.

974
01:00:58,559 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 21: Yeah, yeah, I was trying to who wrap my head

975
01:01:01,519 --> 01:01:06,320
on that explanation. And then I went around and look

976
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:11,000
at Governor Ortland on video on that and he was

977
01:01:11,079 --> 01:01:13,559
trying to reconcile recapitulation with.

978
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:25,119
Speaker 10: SPA so s A, I'm sorry, and he was saying

979
01:01:25,159 --> 01:01:27,719
that it was possible, that it was possible to do so.

980
01:01:28,079 --> 01:01:32,079
Speaker 2: Well, okay, So I mean that's you know, creativity on

981
01:01:32,239 --> 01:01:35,719
his part. But like I think Protestants don't understand that

982
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,039
a lot of these doctrines they're not standalone doctrines, right,

983
01:01:39,199 --> 01:01:45,719
like the the the monarchical trinitarianism is logically and theologically

984
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,639
connected to energetic manifestation and the Essen synergy distinction. It

985
01:01:50,719 --> 01:01:53,480
doesn't make sense because you can find Protestant theologians he

986
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:55,800
will say, oh, actually I believe I think one of them,

987
01:01:56,079 --> 01:01:57,760
Robert Moray. I think he says he believes in the

988
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:01,199
Essen Senter distinction. Yeah. I mean you can theoretically say

989
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,760
you believe that, but it's not a consistent position given

990
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,639
the fact that those doctrines don't stand alone, right, They

991
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:11,800
go along with other necessary doctrines, like a certain view

992
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:15,239
of sacramentology, the real presence, et cetera. So it's just

993
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,519
really an inconsistent position to pick and choose and say, oh,

994
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,880
I'm going to find a way to smash maximistic Confessor's

995
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:26,719
cosmic theology into John Calvin. Not gonna happen because in

996
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,559
John Calvin's theology, Christ does not assume universal human nature.

997
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:37,519
Speaker 21: Yeah, I see, appreciate your answers, thank you for everything, Okay,

998
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:38,480
appreciate it.

999
01:02:39,559 --> 01:02:44,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, those are great questions. Appreciate you. Rolls takes

1000
01:02:44,039 --> 01:02:48,880
twenty dollars. Roman Caloks have a Schools of Theology frame

1001
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:53,360
of thinking. Yes, absolutely, they think that the essence interstinction

1002
01:02:53,559 --> 01:02:56,440
in Polemism is a school of thought. Correct. They do

1003
01:02:56,559 --> 01:03:01,239
not understand it as essentially the sperience of all the saints,

1004
01:03:02,239 --> 01:03:06,239
and that's why you have essentially everything all over the

1005
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,599
place with them. So you can have Roman Catholic spirituality

1006
01:03:10,719 --> 01:03:14,440
being Margaret merri el Coquid cutting yourself with a knife

1007
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:19,440
and bleeding out, and that's a divine experience. And you

1008
01:03:19,559 --> 01:03:23,079
can be a crusader going into battle. That's a divine

1009
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:27,360
because you could be a monk warrior, which suddenly exists

1010
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,039
in the eleventh century and violation of the ancient canons. Well,

1011
01:03:30,039 --> 01:03:31,920
the Pope says, no, we can have monk warriors now.

1012
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:33,960
So in the Roman Caloic system it can just be

1013
01:03:34,079 --> 01:03:38,360
anything you say. It's not just schools. It's also warrior monks,

1014
01:03:38,719 --> 01:03:43,920
just crazy shit, just made up, right, But you're correct

1015
01:03:44,039 --> 01:03:48,679
that regarding their perspective, they think it's a school. They

1016
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:52,760
don't understand that when the sixth Ecumenical Council teaches the

1017
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,280
essence introducecinction in Christology, it's not a school of thought

1018
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,239
for them. Tumism is another school, and they can believe

1019
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,880
in any of the ones that they want more or less.

1020
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:06,440
I mean, it's difficult if you want to be a

1021
01:04:06,519 --> 01:04:12,800
Roman Catholic and contend with Attorney Patras, which Leo the

1022
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:16,599
thirteenth says, Tomism is the official philosophy of Rome. And

1023
01:04:16,679 --> 01:04:20,760
that's why the more traditional you get, the more hardcore

1024
01:04:22,039 --> 01:04:24,880
Thomas they are, because they know they've read Attorney Patras

1025
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:29,639
and they realize that it just is just a rough road.

1026
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:36,280
When you're trying to sell Roman Catholics on quote Eastern theology,

1027
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:39,440
they just it doesn't work. And so it's just a

1028
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,239
bunch of nonsense. It's all a bunch of competing positions.

1029
01:04:43,159 --> 01:04:46,719
And that alone should tell you why would we have

1030
01:04:47,639 --> 01:04:53,559
infinite various ways of people experiencing God and being saved.

1031
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,480
It would be the same experience of the uncreated light,

1032
01:04:56,559 --> 01:04:59,000
whether it's Moses or whether it's Basil, or whether it's Paul,

1033
01:04:59,679 --> 01:05:02,679
or whether it's recent saints in the Orthodox Church. That

1034
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,360
alone should tell you that Orthodox he is the true

1035
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:11,519
Church and not cutting yourself with knives and talking to

1036
01:05:11,639 --> 01:05:14,360
flying hosts and Jesus is your boyfriend and all this

1037
01:05:14,519 --> 01:05:17,559
crazy Fostina Kowalska stuff, That alone should tell you that

1038
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:27,280
it's not right. What's up? Oh three? Og Dasha made

1039
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:32,159
j soft. I think I'm just being the calm and cordial.

1040
01:05:32,239 --> 01:05:34,079
I don't know what this has to do with that.

1041
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:35,639
What's up?

1042
01:05:35,719 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 3: Man?

1043
01:05:37,159 --> 01:05:44,039
Speaker 2: Are you there? Let's talk God? Can you break down

1044
01:05:44,039 --> 01:05:48,760
the Son of Jerusalem and decree three that it's not semipalagian?

1045
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,480
So we don't have semi plagianism in the Orthodox Church.

1046
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,760
The West thinks that if you're not believing in operative

1047
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,960
grace or you know what Augustine talks about, they think

1048
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,320
it's semi pallagian. The Orthodox Church is always taught a

1049
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:08,960
synergy because it's a fundamental feature of human nature to

1050
01:06:09,119 --> 01:06:13,000
have human will and energy, and to lose that energy

1051
01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:16,400
or to have it supplanted would violate the teaching of

1052
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,840
the Sixth Council on human Nature fundamentally having at all

1053
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,559
times its own will and energy. So that means you

1054
01:06:24,599 --> 01:06:30,039
can't have a supplanting and a monogism in conversion, because

1055
01:06:30,079 --> 01:06:33,920
that would be to override our human nature and energy.

1056
01:06:34,519 --> 01:06:37,239
And you realized in that in Christology that would mean

1057
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:42,039
that the Monothelites and the mono energists were correct. You

1058
01:06:42,079 --> 01:06:49,000
gonna umute, O three og? What's up, dude, O three og?

1059
01:06:49,119 --> 01:06:54,519
You have to unmute man. All right, we'll move on.

1060
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:00,320
I don't know there we go.

1061
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:14,519
Speaker 14: I mean, yo, hey, Jay.

1062
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,719
Speaker 5: What's going on? How you doing? Pretty good?

1063
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:18,239
Speaker 9: Pretty good?

1064
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:19,679
Speaker 2: Quick question for you.

1065
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 5: I was watching the debate you had with Jake.

1066
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 22: The meta law foot worshiper or whatever, and I think

1067
01:07:29,039 --> 01:07:32,559
it was during your second rebuttal, I think he tried

1068
01:07:32,599 --> 01:07:35,920
to bring up Father Deacon and an ass paper, and

1069
01:07:36,239 --> 01:07:39,079
I'm more than sure he was straw manning the position,

1070
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,760
but I wanted to know where I could get a

1071
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,039
copy of the paper to read. But it essentially he

1072
01:07:44,159 --> 01:07:49,360
was trying to make an argument that all, like all positions.

1073
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 5: Are all world views, all all world views.

1074
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 22: Are fundamentally circular. And he tried to argue against tag

1075
01:07:56,199 --> 01:08:01,199
and say that it's that it doesn't necessarily make sense

1076
01:08:01,239 --> 01:08:02,800
for the orthodox position alone.

1077
01:08:04,519 --> 01:08:07,519
Speaker 2: I don't think Jake even understands what a transcendent argument is,

1078
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:10,880
so I don't even recall what he was trying to

1079
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,079
argue there. But you could get Father Deacon's paper by

1080
01:08:14,159 --> 01:08:19,039
just dming him or sending him a message. So let's see,

1081
01:08:19,159 --> 01:08:24,600
he's on Twitter as Norwegian news, so I would just

1082
01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:27,239
message him, you know, publicly. I don't know if he

1083
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:28,960
has his DMS on or not, but you could do

1084
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:32,199
message him to get a copy of that paper. Josiah,

1085
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:43,079
what's up? By the way, here is a twenty minute

1086
01:08:43,119 --> 01:08:48,159
video about PSA from a while back. Guys. Any of

1087
01:08:48,239 --> 01:08:51,760
the Protestant you know, videos that we've had up for many,

1088
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,840
many years, any of the Calvinist lectures that we've done,

1089
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:59,359
you can go through those and it's gonna critique dsay.

1090
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:01,199
So I'm not trying to be rude. It's just like

1091
01:09:01,319 --> 01:09:06,199
every time I do, somebody asked about PSA every time,

1092
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:08,960
and I'm just getting to the point where like I

1093
01:09:09,119 --> 01:09:12,039
just don't even want to repeat the whole particular. I mean,

1094
01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:20,039
I'll do it, I guess. But what's up, Josiah, you

1095
01:09:20,079 --> 01:09:24,800
gotta unmute man, So y'all want to see this or here?

1096
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:29,199
This is what y'all are after. On my Only Feet's page,

1097
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,239
there was some zoomers who were like, I can't believe

1098
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:37,680
he did that. That's porn. Like if you think feet

1099
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:39,880
are sexual, you got to issue what's up?

1100
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 18: Okay, how's it going to, Jake?

1101
01:09:42,039 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 2: What's on your mind?

1102
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 13: Uh?

1103
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:49,279
Speaker 23: Yeah, So I'm an atheist and watch a few of

1104
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:51,680
your debates I was just wondering, could you give like

1105
01:09:52,119 --> 01:09:55,720
a brief recap of the transcendental argument for God?

1106
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:03,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, any knowledge claim requires a certain set of categories

1107
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,399
to be the case, to be the preconditions for the

1108
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:11,560
possibility of knowledge, and those categories require some kind of

1109
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,920
grounding and justification and some thing that makes them all

1110
01:10:17,039 --> 01:10:23,119
cohere together. And that being is specifically the Christian God? Sure,

1111
01:10:23,359 --> 01:10:27,560
and how do you know he exists? Though? By the

1112
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:35,840
transcendent argument is one example. I mean, you're saying that

1113
01:10:36,039 --> 01:10:36,520
there has to.

1114
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 23: Be a justification for every belief, and for you, that

1115
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:41,039
justification is God.

1116
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 5: But isn't that ob secular?

1117
01:10:45,159 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? But I believe that every worldview at a base

1118
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:57,119
level is self self recurring or recursive. I mean, not

1119
01:10:57,279 --> 01:11:00,840
the atheist worldview, though I would say it is. I mean,

1120
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,359
you could try to argue for self evident principles, but

1121
01:11:03,399 --> 01:11:07,239
you're going to quickly fall into being self referencing.

1122
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 24: Okay, So.

1123
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:16,560
Speaker 5: Give me or do you have like any examples.

1124
01:11:16,199 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 2: Or well, if you have an atheist worldview, I mean,

1125
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,520
are you saying then that you're a classical foundationals who

1126
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,039
believes in self evident principles?

1127
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:25,800
Speaker 8: I don't know what that means to be honest.

1128
01:11:27,279 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 2: Well, if you don't believe that worldviews are at a

1129
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,920
base level self recursive or whatever, or circular at a

1130
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,439
paradigm level, then most likely you would believe that there

1131
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:44,439
are foundational self evident maxims or axioms. Yeah, okay, So

1132
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,359
two problems with that. One is the criterion problem, which

1133
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,319
is that you can't have a knowledge claim without a

1134
01:11:50,359 --> 01:11:52,960
criteria of knowledge. But if you have a criteria of knowledge,

1135
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:55,079
that's also a knowledge claim, So you'd have to solve

1136
01:11:55,119 --> 01:11:57,760
the criteria problem. And also, if you believe in self

1137
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:01,680
evident principles, then you would have to have a standard

1138
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:06,039
or a benchmark by which you judge the self evident

1139
01:12:06,119 --> 01:12:08,039
and the non self evident. But if you have a

1140
01:12:08,239 --> 01:12:12,159
benchmark that's the prior category to judge those, then they're

1141
01:12:12,199 --> 01:12:14,760
no longer self evident. So these are two variations of

1142
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:16,359
the problems of self evidence.

1143
01:12:19,159 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 8: Okay, but I mean, you know, I could say that.

1144
01:12:25,359 --> 01:12:26,199
Speaker 21: Gravity exists.

1145
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:27,399
Speaker 12: How is that.

1146
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:30,399
Speaker 5: Like? How does that not?

1147
01:12:31,079 --> 01:12:32,760
Speaker 23: How is that not a true statement.

1148
01:12:34,239 --> 01:12:39,199
Speaker 2: Like self evidently? Well, again, I could just go to

1149
01:12:39,279 --> 01:12:41,600
the criteria problem. If you're gonna if you're gonna say

1150
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,960
that something just is the case it's first of all,

1151
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,720
it's ad hoc. Why is that assertion of the thing

1152
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:49,680
that is self evident? How do we know that it's

1153
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:53,239
self evident? Because you need a criteria of knowledge to

1154
01:12:53,319 --> 01:12:56,239
have knowledge claims. So if you're gonna start with that,

1155
01:12:56,479 --> 01:12:58,880
then what's the criteria of knowledge to let you that

1156
01:12:59,039 --> 01:13:00,520
lets you know that that's self evident.

1157
01:13:02,279 --> 01:13:06,039
Speaker 23: It's the criteria of knowledge to know that gravity exists.

1158
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 2: That the assertion is self evident. You understand there's a

1159
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:14,000
difference between believing in gravity and the truth of the

1160
01:13:14,079 --> 01:13:17,560
proposition that gravity is self evident. Those are two different things.

1161
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 23: Unfortunately, I don't understand what you're saying.

1162
01:13:26,119 --> 01:13:33,319
Speaker 2: So when I say the tree is brown, yeah, okay,

1163
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:38,279
that's an assertion, that's a knowledge claim that's different from

1164
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,399
the proposition itself having truth value. Is it true that

1165
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,359
the tree is brown? Are those higher order? It's two

1166
01:13:45,359 --> 01:13:46,920
different things. Do you understand that?

1167
01:13:48,039 --> 01:13:48,239
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1168
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:53,159
Speaker 2: Okay? So to say that gravity is self evident at

1169
01:13:53,239 --> 01:13:56,279
the base level, that's an assertion about the external world

1170
01:13:56,359 --> 01:13:59,760
and phenomena going on in the external world. On another level,

1171
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:04,039
there's an assumption that that's a universal truth claim that

1172
01:14:04,199 --> 01:14:07,000
is the case, And so I'm asking how do we

1173
01:14:07,159 --> 01:14:10,199
know that that is universally the case? Maybe it is,

1174
01:14:10,359 --> 01:14:12,960
but on what basis? What's the criteria of knowledge to

1175
01:14:13,079 --> 01:14:13,279
know that?

1176
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 23: So we know that that gravity is real because you know,

1177
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:25,079
we can run experiments and show objectives.

1178
01:14:25,159 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 2: So you're missing the point. The question is about the

1179
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:32,039
truth value the proposition itself, not whether gravity is going on.

1180
01:14:32,119 --> 01:14:32,560
Speaker 5: In the world.

1181
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 2: How do we know that that sentence meaningfully conveys a

1182
01:14:36,159 --> 01:14:57,520
universal truth claim? No, did you say something because we

1183
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:58,079
couldn't hear you.

1184
01:14:59,359 --> 01:15:01,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, I know that.

1185
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:06,159
Speaker 23: So the criteria for something being true is that it

1186
01:15:06,279 --> 01:15:08,680
accurately reflect reality in my opinion.

1187
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,399
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's true, that's your criteria. Fine, but how

1188
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:13,359
do we know that that is the right criterion?

1189
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 23: How do we know that something being true equals it

1190
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:26,760
accurately reflect reality? Yes, because I mean, how else would

1191
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:28,039
you tell that something is true?

1192
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 2: Well, just saying that I don't see it any other

1193
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,119
way isn't a justification. In fact, that's a fallacy. That's

1194
01:15:34,119 --> 01:15:38,279
a fallacy of incredulity. Yeah, you're right, you're right.

1195
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 23: Well, I guess then you're kind of going into like

1196
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:48,279
basically saying that words don't necessarily have a meaning and

1197
01:15:48,359 --> 01:15:51,399
different people have like different interpretations of words.

1198
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:53,439
Speaker 2: Maybe, I mean, I mean, you can go into all

1199
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:56,319
these different directions because I'm just doing variations on what's

1200
01:15:56,359 --> 01:15:57,560
called the criteria problem.

1201
01:16:01,079 --> 01:16:04,399
Speaker 23: Yeah, but again, you know, you're you're kind of going

1202
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:07,880
into semantics, specially saying different things.

1203
01:16:08,359 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 2: Epistemology is not semantics. There are two different things. Anyway, Look,

1204
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:21,600
go check out the difference between those things. Not trying

1205
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:23,680
to be a jerk, just saying, like, just go take

1206
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:26,159
a look at those distinctions and maybe that'll help with

1207
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:28,760
you know, we're welcome to come back. We can continue

1208
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:43,840
that discourse a victor, what's up? Victor? What's up?

1209
01:16:48,119 --> 01:16:48,319
Speaker 18: Yeah?

1210
01:16:48,359 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 5: What's up? Man?

1211
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:49,359
Speaker 17: Can you hear me?

1212
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:50,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? What's on your mind?

1213
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:52,640
Speaker 18: First of all, I'm a big.

1214
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:53,239
Speaker 2: Fan of what you do.

1215
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:57,079
Speaker 25: I mean, watching you a lot. I've had I had

1216
01:16:57,159 --> 01:17:00,840
two questions. I have a cow of his friend who

1217
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:02,239
I'm kind of in the stalemate with.

1218
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 18: We like arguing with each other.

1219
01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:12,199
Speaker 2: Are you all playing life chess? But he's check mated

1220
01:17:12,279 --> 01:17:12,760
you in life?

1221
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1222
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:18,079
Speaker 25: I just like we like debating, and we haven't been

1223
01:17:18,159 --> 01:17:20,840
able to get past this point, which is the subject

1224
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:21,960
of predestination.

1225
01:17:25,159 --> 01:17:28,279
Speaker 2: Like, okay, I would say so I have two talks

1226
01:17:28,359 --> 01:17:31,199
on my clips channel that are about three hours each,

1227
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:34,359
and I would say just go watch those and take notes.

1228
01:17:35,119 --> 01:17:36,840
Not trying to be rude, it's just I don't I

1229
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:39,760
can't rehearse the same thing over and over and over. Cleo,

1230
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:50,520
what's up? Guys? If you go to if you have

1231
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:57,439
questions about Calvinism and PSA, remember all you gotta do

1232
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,720
is go over here to my clips channel. It's called

1233
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:04,680
Jade Are Livestreams and Absurdities, And if you scroll down

1234
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:15,680
you will see two talks right here about Calvinism Calvinism

1235
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:19,640
Refuted Part one, Calvinism Refuted Part two. This will cover

1236
01:18:20,359 --> 01:18:25,840
all of those questions regarding PSA election predestination. I've got

1237
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:29,399
other talks about Augustinianism original sin on my main channel.

1238
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:32,680
Some guys, you can go check those out and take notes,

1239
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:34,920
and those should answer your questions. Cleio, what's up? Man?

1240
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:37,239
Speaker 5: Hey Jay?

1241
01:18:37,279 --> 01:18:39,880
Speaker 24: Thanks for shaking my call. I think your your patients

1242
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:41,840
in Greece doing this is very commendable.

1243
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 2: Hold on, how do you come to that conclusion? Because

1244
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:47,720
I thought I'm the meanest man on the internet, which

1245
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:48,159
one is it?

1246
01:18:49,159 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 5: I never said that I'm joking.

1247
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 8: I say that.

1248
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:56,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm pretty brand new to you.

1249
01:18:57,079 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 24: One of my close friends is a big fan of you,

1250
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,520
so he's been showing me some stuff. But I kind

1251
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,279
of got into the word about like nine months ago,

1252
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:07,159
and I pretty much take Christianity at face value. With

1253
01:19:07,199 --> 01:19:09,960
like what I read in scripture, it seems like a

1254
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:14,039
pretty simple religion, right, It's like love your neighbor, except

1255
01:19:14,119 --> 01:19:16,399
to Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God.

1256
01:19:17,119 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 2: And like, well, I mean that sounds like the basics.

1257
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:22,279
But no, I don't think that the religion is just

1258
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:26,560
some simple thing of LCD what was common the nominator stuff.

1259
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:29,039
That's usually I'm not fussing with you, I'm just saying

1260
01:19:29,039 --> 01:19:32,960
that's usually what evangelicals say. It's like, oh, Christiana is

1261
01:19:33,039 --> 01:19:35,359
just you know, believe in Jesus and you know it

1262
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:36,000
be nice.

1263
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:42,560
Speaker 24: Yeah, it's it's what I know that this is uh,

1264
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:44,720
kind of scoffed that, but it's kind of what people

1265
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:46,520
like about what I call like non.

1266
01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:49,279
Speaker 5: Denominational and yeah, you know, but I mean it's.

1267
01:19:49,039 --> 01:19:52,119
Speaker 24: It's it's understandable how someone comes to that conclusion. I mean,

1268
01:19:52,119 --> 01:19:54,359
you have versus in the Bible like James two chapter

1269
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:57,279
James Chapter two, verse eight. If you really keep the

1270
01:19:57,359 --> 01:19:59,560
royal law found in scripture, love your neighbor, it's yourself.

1271
01:19:59,359 --> 01:20:01,319
Speaker 5: You're doing right. I mean, like it's pretty simple.

1272
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that but that doesn't doesn't say that that's

1273
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:06,640
all there is to the religion. I mean, you're you're

1274
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:10,039
expected to you know in John six, if you eat

1275
01:20:10,119 --> 01:20:12,560
my flesh, you have life if you If you don't,

1276
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:16,720
you don't. So you're expected to participate in the Eucharist

1277
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:17,279
for example.

1278
01:20:18,319 --> 01:20:21,640
Speaker 24: Yeah, yeah, And I'm over simplifying it. But I'm going

1279
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,680
to get to maybe a better argument in a second here.

1280
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:28,960
So when Jesus was, you know, going around Juda in

1281
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,399
Galilee with his disciples, I think he was preaching like

1282
01:20:31,479 --> 01:20:33,880
a pretty I don't want to say simple, but we're

1283
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:36,000
not gonna a better term in a simple message of

1284
01:20:36,079 --> 01:20:39,159
you know, like loving your neighbor, like not putting the

1285
01:20:39,239 --> 01:20:41,439
rich over the or anything like that.

1286
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:46,720
Speaker 2: So again I have to disagree because there are places

1287
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,399
where he says those things, like the Sermon on the Mount,

1288
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:53,239
but there are countless places where he also goes into

1289
01:20:53,359 --> 01:20:57,000
great depth about the Old Testament prophecies. He goes into

1290
01:20:57,039 --> 01:21:02,760
great depth with his parables. You know that to me

1291
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:07,239
does does not jibe with the idea that because there

1292
01:21:07,279 --> 01:21:12,239
are some simple statements, therefore the entire thing is therefore simple.

1293
01:21:12,359 --> 01:21:13,840
So that's like a parts whole fallacy.

1294
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I think that's that's totally fair.

1295
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:20,279
Speaker 24: But I guess the way I see, you know, he's

1296
01:21:20,319 --> 01:21:26,800
talking to these like illiterate like citizens, you know, preaching

1297
01:21:27,239 --> 01:21:31,560
whatever it is he was preaching. But like, obviously after

1298
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:33,159
all of these teachings when he's.

1299
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 5: Tramp, so you obviously came to Earth to save these people,

1300
01:21:36,079 --> 01:21:38,039
these people that he was teaching to be the intention

1301
01:21:38,159 --> 01:21:39,159
of saving, one could assume.

1302
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,199
Speaker 24: So it wasn't until you know, after his death at

1303
01:21:42,199 --> 01:21:44,520
the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church kind of you.

1304
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:46,960
Speaker 5: Know, came to be and whatnot. And I just like

1305
01:21:47,039 --> 01:21:49,199
my biggest issue, so.

1306
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:52,319
Speaker 2: We don't think that after his death the Orthodox Church

1307
01:21:52,399 --> 01:21:55,640
came to be. So we think that Apostolic succession is

1308
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:58,039
the teaching of the New Testament, and so the church

1309
01:21:58,199 --> 01:22:02,560
is founded in Matthew sixteen when he talks about the

1310
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:05,399
giving them the keys and you know, the ability to

1311
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:07,840
remit and retain sins at the end of John and

1312
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,920
then you get the statement that the institution of baptism

1313
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:13,640
in Matthew twenty eight and then you get the empowering

1314
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,000
of the church at Pentecosanacts two. So I'm not sure

1315
01:22:17,199 --> 01:22:19,920
you got the idea that the Orthodox Catholic Church is

1316
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:23,199
founded after where you send the New Testament or after

1317
01:22:23,279 --> 01:22:24,680
his death. Maybe I'm misunderstood you.

1318
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 24: I mean, if you look it up on Google, I

1319
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:31,000
think it said like the Catholic Church starts some time

1320
01:22:31,119 --> 01:22:32,079
in the first century.

1321
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 5: But you know, maybe I'm wrong.

1322
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:37,159
Speaker 2: Well, I mean Google is not going to be like,

1323
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:40,359
you know, we're not under Pope Google, right, So right,

1324
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:44,840
the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church, is who put

1325
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:47,960
the books of the Bible together, so you can't you

1326
01:22:48,039 --> 01:22:49,520
can't get Bible without church.

1327
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,119
Speaker 24: Yeah, I'll be the first to admit you you're a

1328
01:22:53,159 --> 01:22:55,560
lot more wise in this than me, who picked it

1329
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:56,600
the Bible nine months ago.

1330
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:58,079
Speaker 5: I'm still like learning a lot.

1331
01:22:58,119 --> 01:23:01,079
Speaker 24: But I guess my question meant because it seems to

1332
01:23:01,159 --> 01:23:04,800
me that a lot of these traditions that Orthodoxy claims

1333
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:07,600
to be, like the true path of Salvation sudn't have

1334
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:11,880
been achieved by those that Jesus was preaching to in

1335
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:13,640
Galilee and Judea and whatnot.

1336
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:15,119
Speaker 5: So were they not saved.

1337
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:18,359
Speaker 2: So again, I don't know why it would come to

1338
01:23:18,399 --> 01:23:23,439
that conclusion, because, for example, Jesus himself attended synagogue, attended

1339
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:28,239
liturgical worship, attended normative Holy days and practices and fasts

1340
01:23:28,319 --> 01:23:33,680
and the apostles. Much of that goes into the first

1341
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,119
century Church when it is set up. So we have

1342
01:23:36,319 --> 01:23:39,680
fast days, we have Easter, we have Pasca.

1343
01:23:39,399 --> 01:23:39,680
Speaker 5: We have.

1344
01:23:41,159 --> 01:23:43,560
Speaker 2: You know, these celebrations. We have a divine liturgy. We

1345
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:47,520
have imagery like the Old Testament Temple had. So there's

1346
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:51,279
a direct continuity between the Temple and synagogue worship service

1347
01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:54,880
and the Orthodox Church's worship service, even things like imagery

1348
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:59,840
and relics. So no, I mean even the Old Testament

1349
01:24:00,039 --> 01:24:05,159
add baptisms that had ceremonies, that has many things that

1350
01:24:05,239 --> 01:24:07,520
continue into the New Testament tradition. So I think that

1351
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,319
if you think about Jesus himself, Jesus himself worshiped the

1352
01:24:11,399 --> 01:24:15,279
Father throughout his whole life in a liturgical way. And

1353
01:24:15,399 --> 01:24:18,720
that's because it's Jesus that gave the Old Testament law

1354
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:21,560
and worship to Moses, and so he's the one that

1355
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:25,960
has the authority to say this is fulfilled. Because all

1356
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:28,479
of those things pointed to him, and so when he

1357
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:33,960
sets up apostles to guide and establish his church, they

1358
01:24:34,119 --> 01:24:37,960
also have authority to make judgments to bind into loose

1359
01:24:38,119 --> 01:24:40,319
in regard to what the church will and won't do.

1360
01:24:40,439 --> 01:24:43,239
That's why you see in Acts fifteen they have a council,

1361
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:46,600
and so counsels become normative for the church, and the

1362
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,199
earliest councils of the church teach the same thing to

1363
01:24:49,239 --> 01:24:51,840
the Orthodox Church esys today. There's no deviations there.

1364
01:24:53,319 --> 01:24:57,760
Speaker 24: Okay, So you would assume then that if the people

1365
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:00,199
that he taught to were saved and they were like

1366
01:25:00,279 --> 01:25:03,039
living in practice, how Orthodox live today.

1367
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:07,399
Speaker 2: Well, I mean not identically, because in Redemptive History, his

1368
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:10,800
preaching to the Jews is prior to his zephyl resurrection,

1369
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,079
so they don't have the full message yet. In fact,

1370
01:25:13,119 --> 01:25:15,159
it's not until Luke twenty four where it says that

1371
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:19,560
he opened the apostles eyes to see and understand everything

1372
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:23,039
about him in the Old Testament scriptures. So even the

1373
01:25:23,119 --> 01:25:26,439
apostles got glimpses and they got pieces of it, but

1374
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:29,399
they didn't really understand until after his resurrection. Hence Luke

1375
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:32,239
twenty four literally says that Jesus opened their eyes to

1376
01:25:32,359 --> 01:25:33,439
understand the Old Testament.

1377
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 24: Okay, I guess my final question I want to leave

1378
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:40,720
off with is getting that there's a place in heaven

1379
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,079
for people that accepts love and read scripture like love

1380
01:25:43,159 --> 01:25:46,840
Jesus and reads scripture, but haven't been exposed to I mean,

1381
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,680
you know, I have a friend who exposed me to Orthodoxy, right,

1382
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:52,399
A lot of people don't have that blessing.

1383
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:56,199
Speaker 2: Perhaps, Yeah, I think Jesus for those people, well, I

1384
01:25:56,239 --> 01:25:58,279
think Jesus is very clear that to who much is given,

1385
01:25:58,399 --> 01:26:00,720
much is required. And you know, we don't really have

1386
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:05,600
the means and the capabilities of judging people who you know,

1387
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:08,840
have limited exposure. That's you know, we leave that to God,

1388
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:12,239
and God is a merciful just judge. So what we

1389
01:26:12,399 --> 01:26:16,239
do know is that we tell people to enter the arc. So, hey, Jamie,

1390
01:26:17,239 --> 01:26:19,800
did you met me? A double shot? Thank you? But

1391
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:24,720
those are great questions. Appreciate you coming on. Man, I

1392
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:29,239
forget this guy, William Die, I forget what you're What

1393
01:26:29,359 --> 01:26:35,359
were you on here about? I forgot remind me? Hello, Hey,

1394
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:36,479
what's on your mind?

1395
01:26:38,399 --> 01:26:39,239
Speaker 5: Quick question here?

1396
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 6: So regarding Mormons, what would be the correct philosophical refutation

1397
01:26:46,359 --> 01:26:50,960
if they would say that all intelligences are eternal.

1398
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:55,680
Speaker 2: Well, that would be multiple eternal entities. That would be polytheism.

1399
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:03,319
Speaker 6: What if they say that it really is not because intelligence,

1400
01:27:03,359 --> 01:27:04,239
that there are not gods.

1401
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:09,159
Speaker 2: Okay, well you can define gods in a different way.

1402
01:27:09,279 --> 01:27:11,640
But they actually do believe in multiple gods because they

1403
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:15,960
believe that Adam is a man who can become like

1404
01:27:16,079 --> 01:27:18,359
God the Father, as can we all. So they actually

1405
01:27:18,399 --> 01:27:20,720
do believe in polytheism. Their view of the Trinity is

1406
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:24,159
three gods in the sense of three distinct beings who

1407
01:27:24,239 --> 01:27:26,199
were at one time human beings who evolved into it.

1408
01:27:26,319 --> 01:27:29,119
So they do believe in polytheism even from that vantage point.

1409
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:36,600
But say that there are multiple eternal, uncreated minds, that's

1410
01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:39,319
that's polytheism. How would it, in other words, that they

1411
01:27:39,359 --> 01:27:40,479
would have to explain how it's not.

1412
01:27:42,199 --> 01:27:44,800
Speaker 26: Well, I mean the guy that you debated, Robert Gerd,

1413
01:27:45,319 --> 01:27:47,479
actually admits of being a polytheist.

1414
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:50,600
Speaker 2: Well, there you are, So, I mean, the religion of

1415
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:52,920
the Bible is not polytheistic. In fact, there's quite a

1416
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:57,359
bit that's a warfare against polytheism. Sense I mean, I

1417
01:27:57,399 --> 01:28:00,000
mean Mormonism is just like that stupid but whatever, go ahead.

1418
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,680
Speaker 26: Understand, But so what I should I go after the

1419
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:10,399
fact in terms of epistemology that if you have multiple intelligences,

1420
01:28:10,479 --> 01:28:13,439
there's it's actually impossible for you that to ground anything.

1421
01:28:15,199 --> 01:28:18,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you read Agentes of St. Anthonasius, his critique

1422
01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:23,079
of polytheism is that it's chaos essentially, and the gods

1423
01:28:23,119 --> 01:28:27,359
fight with each other, they disagree. You know, there's multiple uh,

1424
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:32,079
you know, competing forces in the universe. Uh, and conceivably

1425
01:28:32,119 --> 01:28:34,239
at odds with one another. I mean, just think about it.

1426
01:28:34,319 --> 01:28:37,640
Mormons think Jesus and Lucifer are brothers fighting each other.

1427
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:41,279
So I mean, yeah, I would fall prey to Saint

1428
01:28:41,319 --> 01:28:48,439
Anthonacious critique and adgentes absolutely. Okay, by the way, Uh,

1429
01:28:49,199 --> 01:28:51,960
if you've not read that, it is a great apologetic piece,

1430
01:28:52,199 --> 01:28:55,840
and you'll notice that although he's not presenting tag, what

1431
01:28:56,039 --> 01:28:59,319
Athenasius does is that he does an internal critique of

1432
01:29:00,199 --> 01:29:04,119
and world views. And you know, it's a classic of apologetics.

1433
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:08,359
And that's you know what we do to Jake, what's up, man?

1434
01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:14,880
We were just talking about me. Jim, Bob and I

1435
01:29:14,880 --> 01:29:16,439
are going to do a stream, by the way, about

1436
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:21,319
Mormon stuff in the near future because we've had there's

1437
01:29:21,359 --> 01:29:25,279
been this dust up of Mormons popping up right all

1438
01:29:25,319 --> 01:29:29,600
over Twitter, and supposedly they have a couple apologists out there.

1439
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:32,760
And Jim, Jim Bob and I were going back and

1440
01:29:32,840 --> 01:29:36,880
forth about all the kind of wild stuff and Mormonism

1441
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:39,760
that you don't usually hear talked about, because Mormons do

1442
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:43,520
this thing where they like they eat, they like butter

1443
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:46,920
you up, you know, like scientologists before they tell you

1444
01:29:47,039 --> 01:29:50,319
the heavy stuff, right, and then after you've been involved

1445
01:29:50,399 --> 01:29:52,840
and you've got the feelies for a while from praying

1446
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:57,960
their goober prayer. Oh, by the way, we believe in

1447
01:29:58,039 --> 01:30:00,840
sci fi space opera about bout start lactic goal lords

1448
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,640
of Colob stuff. And I'm not joking when I say

1449
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,720
that they literally believe in Lords of Colob. The people

1450
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,479
that did Bossarga lact to Go were Mormons. So they

1451
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:13,640
believe in eternal matter. They believe in They have Masonic

1452
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:18,760
temple ripped off Masonic temple ceremonies for their endowments, and

1453
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:22,159
ceremonies Jesus and Lous for our brothers. They believe the

1454
01:30:22,279 --> 01:30:25,800
lucifer enlightened Man in the garden. They believe that Bigfoot

1455
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:29,000
is Cain. I am not kidding. Many of them still do.

1456
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:35,319
The intellect is eternal matters. Eternal. Black people are the

1457
01:30:35,439 --> 01:30:38,640
creations of the bad God or that they were punished

1458
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:42,800
in the pre existing state, their fallen entities, and that's

1459
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:45,560
why they're black people. They have magic underwear. They believe

1460
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:49,880
that God the Father was a human being who achieved godhood.

1461
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:53,680
And note that when they try to be a humanists

1462
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,840
and talk to you like, oh, you believe in deification,

1463
01:30:57,079 --> 01:30:59,880
so do we. They don't believe what we believe. They

1464
01:31:00,119 --> 01:31:06,399
believe in the Lords of col Ob space sci fi

1465
01:31:06,840 --> 01:31:12,479
star trek shit. I mean, it's just crazy, dude, and

1466
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:17,880
that's just part of the magic of more. Jake, what's up?

1467
01:31:20,159 --> 01:31:20,840
Speaker 5: Hey? What's up?

1468
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:21,119
Speaker 14: Jay?

1469
01:31:23,119 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 27: I'm an Orthodox inquirer right now, I'm god willing going

1470
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:33,039
to start my catechiss after Easter. But there's kind of

1471
01:31:33,199 --> 01:31:36,159
two things I was wondering if you could help me

1472
01:31:36,239 --> 01:31:40,439
out answer them before I'd become a cate Cuban.

1473
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:45,159
Speaker 2: You want to know how to get to colob Is.

1474
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:50,760
First of all, space ax is going to have to

1475
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:56,279
create some kind of I don't know, like traveling space

1476
01:31:56,439 --> 01:32:00,760
church that can fly to co Ob. So probably when

1477
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:05,640
Elon converts to Mormon, we can solve this problem. Go ahead.

1478
01:32:10,319 --> 01:32:15,039
Speaker 28: I was I haven't really gotten many good answers on

1479
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:21,119
why bishops cannot be married in the Orthodox Church, and

1480
01:32:21,159 --> 01:32:23,039
I haven't had an opportunity.

1481
01:32:22,479 --> 01:32:24,880
Speaker 2: To talk to my priests about I mean, it's a

1482
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:28,680
tradition that developed on the basis of needs of the time, because,

1483
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:35,279
for example, bishops constantly have to do administrative stuff and

1484
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:40,039
travel to various parishes. In the ancient and medieval world,

1485
01:32:40,079 --> 01:32:42,520
that was very difficult for a person to do with

1486
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:46,439
family and children, and so it became easier from a

1487
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:50,439
practical perspective for the Church to draw bishops from the monasteries.

1488
01:32:51,119 --> 01:32:54,000
But and this might be controversial, I'm sure that there's

1489
01:32:54,079 --> 01:32:56,079
canons that have been laid down. I mean, there's nothing

1490
01:32:56,159 --> 01:33:02,239
inherently technically wrong with a bishop, like in cases having

1491
01:33:02,319 --> 01:33:05,039
a wife is just not the norm. But I mean

1492
01:33:05,119 --> 01:33:07,680
some of the apostles had wives, so I don't think

1493
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:09,119
that there's anything inherently wrong with that.

1494
01:33:10,039 --> 01:33:14,640
Speaker 11: I think there are some mettestations of married bishop in

1495
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:19,199
Russia to the sixteenth century, but yeah, in general, they

1496
01:33:19,239 --> 01:33:22,560
were john from the monastery. It's also tied to the

1497
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:26,880
development and the arise as a monastery as a more

1498
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:32,439
important institution as the Early Church. But yeah, technically, I

1499
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:37,079
mean it wouldn't be canonical, but it's not dogmatic at

1500
01:33:37,159 --> 01:33:37,439
some point.

1501
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:40,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good way to put it, okay.

1502
01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 28: And then my second question was regarding well student, I

1503
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:55,640
forgot it. It's something to do with bishops and being married.

1504
01:33:56,039 --> 01:33:58,119
But I appreciate what you.

1505
01:33:58,399 --> 01:34:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah's cool, that's right, think about go you know, you

1506
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:01,840
can think about it and come back in if you

1507
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:05,840
don't too, if you remember it. What is the relationship

1508
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:09,359
of Colob to Earth? So I want to bring you

1509
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:12,199
I enjoyed Battlestar Galacta. I have to say, I mean

1510
01:34:12,239 --> 01:34:14,279
this is like you know, nerdship from ten years ago,

1511
01:34:14,439 --> 01:34:17,239
fifteen years ago. But it was a fun series. I mean,

1512
01:34:17,399 --> 01:34:19,920
you know, it wasn't like maybe this was a two thousands.

1513
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:23,600
Maybe we're already like twenty years from Battlestar Galactica. But uh,

1514
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:30,319
I've never actually looked at the Mormon mythology that they

1515
01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:31,720
believe about Colob.

1516
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:36,079
Speaker 13: So here's some goober a video on Colob and the Earth.

1517
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:41,279
A very interesting quote from Brigham Young that I think

1518
01:34:41,439 --> 01:34:46,199
shed's light onto the possibility that the Earth was created

1519
01:34:46,479 --> 01:34:50,600
first near onto Colob let's look at that and see

1520
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:51,840
the scriptural evidence.

1521
01:34:52,520 --> 01:34:54,720
Speaker 2: I guess if you like the Dune universe, you would

1522
01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:56,840
like the Mormon universe, right, because they're kind of like

1523
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,800
the same sort of sci fi larp world in my mind.

1524
01:35:00,119 --> 01:35:06,479
Speaker 13: For that, as well as Brigham Young's quote, Brigham Young

1525
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:10,359
stated in the Journal of Discourses, the Earth is our home.

1526
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:14,800
It was framed expressly for the habitation of those who

1527
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:18,760
are faithful to God and who prove themselves worthy to

1528
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:23,439
inherit the earth. When the Lord shall have sanctified, purified,

1529
01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:27,119
and glorified it, and brought it back into His presence,

1530
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:32,279
from which it fell far into space. Ask the astronomer

1531
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:36,560
how far from we are from the nearest of those

1532
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:41,119
heavenly bodies that are called the fixed stars? Can he

1533
01:35:41,239 --> 01:35:44,439
count the miles? It would be a task for him

1534
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:48,239
to tell us the distance when the Earth was framed and.

1535
01:35:48,359 --> 01:35:54,680
Speaker 2: Brought So, yeah, there's quite a quite an elaborate fan

1536
01:35:54,800 --> 01:35:59,600
fiction narrative going on with the Lord's a colab here.

1537
01:35:59,640 --> 01:36:03,279
Let's see who why are women? God's living out there? Right?

1538
01:36:03,359 --> 01:36:05,920
Gods ado with a body. So we got like Mormon,

1539
01:36:06,159 --> 01:36:10,119
Mormons and Muslims can like you know, Solafi and Mormons

1540
01:36:10,119 --> 01:36:12,560
could get together on this. You know, God the Father's

1541
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:15,319
got a body. He's up there kind of maybe flying

1542
01:36:15,359 --> 01:36:19,720
around in like a space chariot pyramid. You know, maybe

1543
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:21,600
Yakub could get in on this. Let's see.

1544
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:26,119
Speaker 7: The Eldest Church teaches that their God is just one

1545
01:36:26,159 --> 01:36:29,600
of many gods throughout the universe and lives near a

1546
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:36,600
planet or star called co op. It's founder Joseph Smith taught,

1547
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:40,640
I will preach on the plurality of gods. The heads

1548
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:46,239
of the gods appointed one God for us. Mormon apostle

1549
01:36:46,319 --> 01:36:49,680
Awesome Pratt taught there are more gods than there are

1550
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:54,199
particles of matter. One world has a personal God, and

1551
01:36:54,359 --> 01:36:57,560
the inhabitants thereof worship his attributes.

1552
01:36:59,319 --> 01:37:01,760
Speaker 2: They're looking like Darwin over here. Look at this, We've

1553
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:05,760
got Mormon Nietzsche. Look at this, Mormon Nietzsche. We have

1554
01:37:05,960 --> 01:37:09,520
Mormon Darwin right here, and we got Mormon Nietzsche kind of.

1555
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:16,479
Speaker 7: Gods stretching back into the eternities. Mormon apostle John Wister.

1556
01:37:16,319 --> 01:37:19,840
Speaker 2: Oh shit, here we got Mormon Sam Hyde or aka

1557
01:37:20,039 --> 01:37:24,399
Mormon Leon Trotsky taught that.

1558
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:28,079
Speaker 7: There is a plurality of gods is a fundamental.

1559
01:37:27,600 --> 01:37:29,560
Speaker 2: Truth of fundamentally truth.

1560
01:37:29,920 --> 01:37:33,479
Speaker 7: The Eldest Church teaches that their God is not the

1561
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:38,520
Supreme Creator mcmarly an organizer over his area.

1562
01:37:38,399 --> 01:37:43,399
Speaker 2: Of the universe. Damn son, we got sci fi Lords

1563
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:47,720
of Cola? Did anybody watch Bylstar Galactica the Mother? Nobody

1564
01:37:47,840 --> 01:37:55,119
remembers Lords of Cola anyway? M exposing dispensationalism, How you doing?

1565
01:37:57,399 --> 01:37:59,800
Jiub says for two dollars that Mormons have a heresy

1566
01:37:59,920 --> 01:38:04,479
or of succession. Checkmate, Jay, who got me slowed by

1567
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:06,199
wild war? Two dollars? Asked that guy if his name

1568
01:38:06,319 --> 01:38:10,399
is James, I forgot sorry, Dave Mustard staying five dollars,

1569
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:13,640
wouldn't inherit to guilt make Jesus guilty of sin at

1570
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:16,439
the moment of his incarnation? I mean Protestants will just

1571
01:38:16,479 --> 01:38:19,399
say that's why there was a virgin birth and that

1572
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:21,279
he was the one that it was exempted because he

1573
01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:24,760
was a perfect man. Cold quest five dollars. I'm with

1574
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:27,479
you on UFOs being a syop. I'm having a hard

1575
01:38:27,479 --> 01:38:30,920
time explaining an orb but that my girlfriend and I

1576
01:38:31,079 --> 01:38:34,279
saw physically it was very close. Well, just saying that

1577
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:38,920
UFOs are psyops doesn't mean that there's no you know,

1578
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:43,880
supernatural phenomena or inexplicable phenomenon. I think there are inexplicable

1579
01:38:44,119 --> 01:38:49,199
phenomena cases, you know, demons, angels, maybe even stuff we

1580
01:38:49,239 --> 01:38:53,239
don't know about yet. So I don't think that everything

1581
01:38:53,319 --> 01:38:56,760
is a syo. What's up exposing dispensationalism.

1582
01:39:00,159 --> 01:39:07,760
Speaker 5: I'm also an Orthodox inquirer. I had a question about iconography.

1583
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:12,720
Speaker 22: Okay, So I was raised in a culture where you're

1584
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:14,520
not allowed to draw pictures of like.

1585
01:39:14,600 --> 01:39:17,239
Speaker 18: Anything like Jesus or anything in heaven.

1586
01:39:17,079 --> 01:39:17,840
Speaker 5: Or anything like that.

1587
01:39:19,239 --> 01:39:24,159
Speaker 23: Like, how did the Orthodox justify or interpret the second Commandment?

1588
01:39:25,399 --> 01:39:28,439
Speaker 2: Right? So we would agree that you cannot have idols,

1589
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:35,119
and the first and foremost prohibition is on idolatry of

1590
01:39:35,199 --> 01:39:37,159
the heart. Right, So remember the law as a matter

1591
01:39:37,279 --> 01:39:40,640
first and foremost of the heart, not just externals. So

1592
01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:43,119
a lot of times Protestants when they hear this, or

1593
01:39:43,239 --> 01:39:46,439
Muslims or anybody else, they think of idolatry as an

1594
01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:50,279
external action where it's creating some kind of totem or

1595
01:39:50,319 --> 01:39:52,880
some kind of picture. We know that that's not the case,

1596
01:39:53,239 --> 01:39:56,640
first of all, from Exodus itself. It's in Exodus that

1597
01:39:57,359 --> 01:40:01,560
instructions are given for creating a labert iconography for the

1598
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:07,640
interior of the temple, including the hanging curtains, including the

1599
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:09,800
arc of the Covenant with the angels on the top

1600
01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:13,359
of it, the seraphim. So we know that it's not

1601
01:40:13,560 --> 01:40:17,039
inherently any imagery that's wrong. And in fact, even in

1602
01:40:17,039 --> 01:40:20,199
the Masoretic text and Joshua seven, you have the case

1603
01:40:20,239 --> 01:40:23,960
of Joshua prostrating before the arc with all of the elders,

1604
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:28,279
so they're bowing down physically prostrating themselves before the Ark

1605
01:40:28,319 --> 01:40:31,560
of the Covenant. Other chapters you have very similar things

1606
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:33,840
where all of Israel prostrations before Solomon and the temple

1607
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:39,039
when he dedicates it. And so it's not physicality, it's

1608
01:40:39,119 --> 01:40:42,560
not imagery that is the problem. It's idolatry, which would

1609
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:46,640
be to make an image of anything not to be imaged,

1610
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:48,960
such as the divine nature. If you notice in Acts

1611
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:52,159
seventeen Paul says the divine nature is not like anything

1612
01:40:52,319 --> 01:40:55,359
created in Orthodoxy. We actually agree with that you cannot

1613
01:40:55,439 --> 01:40:58,119
make an image of the divine essence, the divine nature,

1614
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,840
or even God the Father should not be imaged. However,

1615
01:41:02,359 --> 01:41:05,520
Jesus is the icon, and that's used the New Testament

1616
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:08,479
Colossians for the Greek word for who. He is the

1617
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:13,560
icon of the Father's hypostasis. He's the direct image of

1618
01:41:14,359 --> 01:41:18,159
the Father. So he is the one unique icon in

1619
01:41:18,279 --> 01:41:22,039
image of the Father. And his becoming flesh means that

1620
01:41:22,119 --> 01:41:26,239
he was circumscribable or limited in time and space in

1621
01:41:26,359 --> 01:41:29,560
that incarnate state, and that means that in the icons,

1622
01:41:29,640 --> 01:41:33,520
what we are picking out is the divine hypostasis of

1623
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:36,600
the Son in the flesh. So we're not drawing the

1624
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:39,760
divine nature, we're not drawing who the Father is in

1625
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:43,560
some speculative way. We are doing it in the way

1626
01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:47,000
that Jesus himself said, if you've seen me, you've seen

1627
01:41:47,119 --> 01:41:50,680
the Father. Because he's saying I am the icon of

1628
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,359
the Father. Hebrews one says he's the image of the

1629
01:41:53,399 --> 01:41:58,079
Father's hypostasis. So that is the legitimate usage of imagery.

1630
01:41:58,159 --> 01:42:00,319
And in the early Church, when the apostles out and

1631
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:02,560
set up the churches and the seas that they set

1632
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:07,399
up seees, they established liturgical worship for the church, just

1633
01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:11,640
like Israel had in the temple and synagogue system, you see,

1634
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:16,000
and that's why early synagogues also are covered in imagery,

1635
01:42:16,119 --> 01:42:19,479
like the Dora Europos Synagogue, and so the early Church

1636
01:42:20,199 --> 01:42:23,039
was always pro imagery. You can find if you go

1637
01:42:23,079 --> 01:42:25,279
to the catacombs in Rome. I went last year to

1638
01:42:25,399 --> 01:42:28,880
Rome to the catacombs. They're everywhere. I only went to

1639
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:33,319
one of the catacomb systems. You can see imagery, you

1640
01:42:33,399 --> 01:42:35,960
can see Christ the Good Shepherd, you can see altars.

1641
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:39,760
They had all the same stuff even in the catacombs

1642
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:41,279
that you'll find an Orthodox church.

1643
01:42:46,039 --> 01:42:50,079
Speaker 5: Oh okay, that kind of answers that question, then thank you, Yes.

1644
01:42:50,319 --> 01:42:54,399
Speaker 2: I would recommend our friends over at Orthodox Shahada made

1645
01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:59,199
a great documentary on this very question. It's called Christian

1646
01:42:59,239 --> 01:43:03,640
Worship and the Old Testament. Every Protestant and every iconoclast

1647
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:08,359
minded or background person should watch this documentary. It's one

1648
01:43:08,399 --> 01:43:10,560
of the best. We always end up recommending it. Lewis

1649
01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:13,039
spent a tremendous amount of time on it. It's based

1650
01:43:13,079 --> 01:43:16,520
on a couple of the texts you know that well,

1651
01:43:17,039 --> 01:43:20,079
I didn't mention them, but it's based on Williams and

1652
01:43:20,119 --> 01:43:23,520
Anstell's book. It's based on Louis Bouillet's liturgy book. It's

1653
01:43:23,560 --> 01:43:28,039
based on Hugh Wybru's Byzantine Liturgy Book. So it's actually

1654
01:43:28,399 --> 01:43:32,199
partly based on arguments that Protestant scholars have written like Wybrut,

1655
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:35,800
so it's not just some you know, Orthodox assertion. You

1656
01:43:35,880 --> 01:43:39,439
can actually see all the citations from Protestant liturgical scholars,

1657
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:44,039
and Lewis just really walks through all the elements of

1658
01:43:44,199 --> 01:43:47,960
the Jewish temple and synagogue liturgy that carried over into

1659
01:43:48,319 --> 01:43:50,760
the Early Church in the Apostolic era and in the

1660
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:54,520
first and second third centuries. So it's an invaluable documentary,

1661
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:58,119
even to the point of the similarity between the clerical

1662
01:43:58,279 --> 01:44:01,239
vestiments that the high priest war in the way that

1663
01:44:01,279 --> 01:44:04,439
you see an Orthodox bishop decked out their their analogus,

1664
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:11,800
their fulfillments of one another. Sec on YouTube or yes,

1665
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:14,840
it's called Christian Worship and the Old Testament, and I've

1666
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:17,319
got it pulled up here on the screen. It's putting

1667
01:44:17,359 --> 01:44:20,600
a chat for you guys. But the channel is Orthodox

1668
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:25,199
Shahata s h A H A d A. And the

1669
01:44:25,279 --> 01:44:29,319
documentary is Christian Worship and the Old Testament. Now for

1670
01:44:29,439 --> 01:44:31,960
all the people who are lazy and they just repeat,

1671
01:44:32,119 --> 01:44:35,039
not you, but they just repeat what Gavin Ortland says.

1672
01:44:35,159 --> 01:44:37,560
And this is all these Protestant things, like nobody just

1673
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:41,279
goes and watches the documentary I'm not talking about you,

1674
01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:43,640
I'm just talking about general sort of the people that

1675
01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:47,960
hop on here and say, you guys arete dollars. We don't,

1676
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:51,119
we don't worship the way. It's like, did you not

1677
01:44:51,279 --> 01:44:53,439
watch this documentary that literally deals with every one of

1678
01:44:53,479 --> 01:44:55,800
these issues. Every one of those stupid things that Gavin

1679
01:44:55,880 --> 01:45:01,079
Ortland endlessly brings up is answered in this document Like

1680
01:45:01,319 --> 01:45:06,560
the Early Church has this style of worship, admittedly from

1681
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:16,600
Protestant scholars, and they have elements of imagery, iconography, and

1682
01:45:16,720 --> 01:45:21,960
other sacramental things that are not in Protestantism. Okay, So

1683
01:45:22,359 --> 01:45:27,199
when Gavin Ortland says, where's all the elaborate, ornate iconography

1684
01:45:27,279 --> 01:45:28,960
in the first, second, and third century, Oh, you mean

1685
01:45:29,000 --> 01:45:32,439
when the churches in the catacombs when they're being persecuted.

1686
01:45:32,439 --> 01:45:34,399
Who's going to be able to set up a giant

1687
01:45:34,479 --> 01:45:41,880
cathedral with elaborate temple level iconography when you're getting persecuted. Nobody.

1688
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:45,119
It's silly argument, right, ignoring the contexts and the history.

1689
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:49,039
But guess what if you go to the catacombs in Rome,

1690
01:45:49,159 --> 01:45:55,960
there's images, Well there may be images, but they did

1691
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:56,720
not revere them.

1692
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:57,359
Speaker 7: How do you know that?

1693
01:45:57,920 --> 01:46:01,840
Speaker 2: So notice the shift in the argument that burden approof shifts.

1694
01:46:02,439 --> 01:46:05,520
There's no, you can't prove there's images prior to the

1695
01:46:05,600 --> 01:46:07,920
fifth and sixth century. H really, so you give examples

1696
01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:09,920
of catacombs. Well, there's images, but you don't know that

1697
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:12,399
they were. So now you move the goalpost. Now that

1698
01:46:12,520 --> 01:46:15,079
we prove that there were images, but you can't show

1699
01:46:15,119 --> 01:46:18,039
it being raversed. Oh, excuse me, it was the Eucharist reverence. Yes,

1700
01:46:18,079 --> 01:46:20,520
it was because they taught the real presence in the first, second,

1701
01:46:20,520 --> 01:46:23,000
third century. Oh well that doesn't coult because that's not

1702
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:26,760
But it is an image, even in your view the UK,

1703
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:28,439
even though you don't believe in the real presence, you

1704
01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:30,760
still believe it's an image of Christ with the bread

1705
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:33,560
and the wine. Right, Well, it's a symbolic image, yes, Okay,

1706
01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:36,039
well there you go. So there's an image prior to Well,

1707
01:46:36,079 --> 01:46:39,880
that's an image that the Lord ordained. Well, hold on,

1708
01:46:40,119 --> 01:46:44,960
so now it's what Christ ordains. Because no Protestant church

1709
01:46:45,760 --> 01:46:48,720
has any biblical evidence for how the worship service is

1710
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:51,520
supposed to go. So now you put yourself in even

1711
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:53,520
worse position because you don't have any evidence of what

1712
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:59,079
Jesus ordained for the actual worship service. I don't understand

1713
01:46:59,079 --> 01:47:02,479
that Protestants always just I think this is devastating. When

1714
01:47:02,479 --> 01:47:05,000
I was Protestant, when I was Calvinist, I realized this,

1715
01:47:05,079 --> 01:47:07,119
Wait a minute, the New Testament doesn't have a worship service.

1716
01:47:08,520 --> 01:47:10,399
And when I read Nate up and abay, who, God

1717
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:14,239
seems to care quite a bit about how he's worshiped. Right, Well,

1718
01:47:14,279 --> 01:47:17,199
if solar scripture is true, why wouldn't he have laid

1719
01:47:17,279 --> 01:47:20,359
down in the written text that the church is all

1720
01:47:20,479 --> 01:47:24,720
supposed to have as its final authority. The pattern of

1721
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:28,000
how a worship service goes there should be like Paul's

1722
01:47:28,039 --> 01:47:32,399
epistle to you know the Church of Corinth on the

1723
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:37,239
liturgical service. Well, guess what, we don't have that. But

1724
01:47:37,319 --> 01:47:39,279
God seems to care quite a bit about how he's

1725
01:47:39,279 --> 01:47:42,159
worshiped because he kills people that do it wrong. And

1726
01:47:42,279 --> 01:47:44,800
even the New Testament, Paul tells the Church of Corinth,

1727
01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:48,279
if you eat unworthily, you could still be killed. So

1728
01:47:48,399 --> 01:47:51,000
he still cares about worship enough to kill people over it.

1729
01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:53,479
So how are we supposed to worship? Well, I don't know.

1730
01:47:53,560 --> 01:47:56,039
I guess Pastor Randy Balls can just make it up

1731
01:47:56,039 --> 01:48:02,680
as he goes. Well, brother, I pray really hard, pray

1732
01:48:02,800 --> 01:48:06,279
really hord and the Lord's done told me that we're

1733
01:48:06,319 --> 01:48:09,119
going to worship in the style of Bishop TD Jakes.

1734
01:48:09,960 --> 01:48:12,239
We're going to scream and hoot and holler, and we're

1735
01:48:12,279 --> 01:48:18,279
going to do the Roger Rabbit in every service. David,

1736
01:48:18,319 --> 01:48:26,520
what's up? Roll stakes, Let's talk God. Five dollars? Can

1737
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:33,119
you break down? We already did that. Cursed world, just

1738
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:38,079
ten dollars. Curse world problems with the spicy meat ball

1739
01:48:38,199 --> 01:48:41,319
of icon questions waiting on the Twitter space. I mean,

1740
01:48:42,239 --> 01:48:45,720
are they requesting to speak because you got to come

1741
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:48,800
on and I'm not reading a bunch of text questions.

1742
01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:52,119
But thank you for that, Rosa Tron forty two dollars,

1743
01:48:52,199 --> 01:48:54,119
Thank you so much. Thank you for opening my eyes

1744
01:48:54,159 --> 01:48:58,279
at Orthodox Church. The answer is forty two. I was

1745
01:48:58,319 --> 01:49:04,720
that the Douglas What's his Face? Satire book Cody asked

1746
01:49:04,800 --> 01:49:10,640
three dollars. God, Protestantism is insecure in regard to his creation,

1747
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:15,960
afraid of honoring his saints, diminishes his glory. It's incompetent

1748
01:49:16,079 --> 01:49:19,359
in guiding his people, and holds lower standards for relationships

1749
01:49:19,399 --> 01:49:23,720
than most spouses would accept. Those are some good practical critiques.

1750
01:49:23,760 --> 01:49:31,039
Of Protestant Theolgio degree Rachel Wilson five dollars. Okay, So

1751
01:49:31,119 --> 01:49:34,439
in Mormon theology, Jesus is a middle manager for the

1752
01:49:34,520 --> 01:49:38,359
Department Earth correct and he's also loose for his brother.

1753
01:49:39,199 --> 01:49:39,960
Did I get that right?

1754
01:49:40,039 --> 01:49:40,199
Speaker 3: Yes?

1755
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:43,560
Speaker 2: Wild Mormon captured three dollars. Mormons hate it when you

1756
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:45,720
call them by their temple names. Try it.

1757
01:49:47,560 --> 01:49:48,079
Speaker 13: How do we know?

1758
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:52,159
Speaker 2: How do I know what their temple name is? David whatsoever? Either?

1759
01:49:53,199 --> 01:49:58,039
Speaker 12: Yeah, Hey, Jay, I have a question about the second

1760
01:49:58,079 --> 01:50:01,560
temple destruction in Mark thirteen. I heard you talk about

1761
01:50:01,600 --> 01:50:06,840
how that's a fulfillment of the coved worship in Deuteronomy

1762
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:07,399
twenty eight.

1763
01:50:07,439 --> 01:50:09,760
Speaker 5: I was just wondering, is that just.

1764
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:11,680
Speaker 12: In the David Chilten book or is that can you

1765
01:50:11,720 --> 01:50:13,000
find that the Church fathers too?

1766
01:50:14,199 --> 01:50:17,279
Speaker 2: No, Chris system is very explicit as our other Church

1767
01:50:17,359 --> 01:50:21,079
fathers about seventy eight being what's happening in the all

1768
01:50:21,119 --> 01:50:21,720
of that discourse?

1769
01:50:22,920 --> 01:50:27,079
Speaker 18: Okay, do you know like what Hamley that is?

1770
01:50:27,079 --> 01:50:29,439
Speaker 2: Because it was right, it's just Hombily's on Matthew twenty four.

1771
01:50:30,439 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 18: Okay, all right, you know what is that the only

1772
01:50:36,079 --> 01:50:36,800
one you can think of?

1773
01:50:37,359 --> 01:50:42,119
Speaker 2: Christystom No, Saint Cyril of Jerusalem. Mint. I don't remember

1774
01:50:42,319 --> 01:50:45,840
specifically about Matthew twenty four, but I think so Cyril Jerusalem,

1775
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:49,319
I think of the Catechetical Lectures has a seventy eight reference.

1776
01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:53,159
Saint Athanasius has a seventy eight reference for Daniel nine.

1777
01:50:54,279 --> 01:50:57,279
Saint Cyril of Alexandria, I don't exactly remember where, but

1778
01:50:57,359 --> 01:51:05,600
he does have a preterist person predist statements. Origin does,

1779
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:11,960
and I think other there's some other Eastern father references too. Now,

1780
01:51:12,600 --> 01:51:15,039
there is a Protestant website used to be up. Let's

1781
01:51:15,039 --> 01:51:17,760
see if we can find it that that actually had

1782
01:51:17,840 --> 01:51:19,720
collected a lot of these. Let me see if it's

1783
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:21,560
still I don't know if it's still around or not. Yeah,

1784
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:29,479
Preadist church fathers. But I will say that the partial

1785
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:34,319
predatorist reading is way more Oh Usebius, I forgot, there's

1786
01:51:34,319 --> 01:51:38,000
a good one in Usebius. It's way more evident in

1787
01:51:38,279 --> 01:51:40,479
Eastern fathers than it is in Latin fathers. I'm not

1788
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:42,279
saying it's not in Latin fathers.

1789
01:51:42,319 --> 01:51:42,720
Speaker 13: I know that.

1790
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:50,359
Speaker 2: For example. Oh, oh, I know another good one. Hillary Hippologists.

1791
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:56,159
Saint Hippologists of Rome is a very early uh prederist statement.

1792
01:51:56,880 --> 01:51:59,960
The Didiki has a predist statement. It's either Dideki or

1793
01:52:00,079 --> 01:52:05,880
Pistol barnabas As. Yeah, exactly. Oh, Clement of Alexandra, I

1794
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:07,640
didn't even I forgot. Now he's not a saint, but

1795
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:27,119
he's an early witness. Let's see. Yeah, No, it's not

1796
01:52:27,279 --> 01:52:36,439
gonna look for I don't say the old website that

1797
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:40,079
used to be up about preterism in the Church Fathers.

1798
01:52:41,239 --> 01:52:56,039
It's the dedicated by the way, it's not the pistol Barnabas. Okay, Uh,

1799
01:52:56,119 --> 01:52:57,560
those are the ones that come to mind. But I'm

1800
01:52:57,560 --> 01:52:59,880
sure you can dig up some more if you spend more.

1801
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:00,279
Speaker 8: Time on it.

1802
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:04,600
Speaker 12: Okay, yeah, no problem. Also, I did have a question

1803
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:11,479
regarding Unham's sanctum in Denzing You're it says a quote

1804
01:53:11,479 --> 01:53:16,840
where Boniface rejected that he was trying to basically usurp

1805
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:20,479
phill up the fourth authority, Like what would you think

1806
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:22,439
of that when you bring up there, because I, like

1807
01:53:22,479 --> 01:53:24,640
I have read it it does have like very strong

1808
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:27,039
statements of temporal authority. But then he also kind of

1809
01:53:27,079 --> 01:53:29,920
tries to, like it seems in the quote he kind

1810
01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:31,520
of tries to like pull it back a little.

1811
01:53:31,359 --> 01:53:32,399
Speaker 18: Bit when he's questioned on it.

1812
01:53:34,439 --> 01:53:37,279
Speaker 2: Well, I think even in the Roman Catholic system, you're

1813
01:53:37,359 --> 01:53:41,319
bound by the dogmatic statement itself. So and you're saying

1814
01:53:41,359 --> 01:53:45,119
that after this he dialed it back. Yeah, well, I

1815
01:53:45,199 --> 01:53:46,760
mean even if he dialed it back, I mean the

1816
01:53:46,880 --> 01:53:52,960
expectation from like Dick Tatus Pope, which is two hundred

1817
01:53:53,039 --> 01:53:55,640
years earlier, three hundred years earlier, like, the expectation is

1818
01:53:55,640 --> 01:54:00,880
pretty much the same until I mean, maybe somebody should

1819
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:04,079
do a study on exactly the whole history of the

1820
01:54:04,159 --> 01:54:08,800
temporal supremacy, because it's it's there from Dictatus Pope clearly

1821
01:54:09,159 --> 01:54:17,520
until Sanctum. I don't know of the explicit Well, let

1822
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:19,880
me rephrase it this way. If you go to Lamenta

1823
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:24,239
Billy into the pre Vatican to strong and cyclicals that

1824
01:54:24,359 --> 01:54:30,680
condemn modernism, Lamenta Billy, for example, condemns the separation of

1825
01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:36,520
church and state. I think it references. It doesn't explicitly

1826
01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:40,039
say temporal supremacy, but there is a statement about the

1827
01:54:40,199 --> 01:54:44,199
idea of dechristianizing the states, and let me pull up

1828
01:54:44,239 --> 01:54:48,079
Lamita Billy. There's something along these lines. So I would

1829
01:54:48,199 --> 01:54:52,119
argue that even Lamenta Billy still has this idea at work.

1830
01:54:53,119 --> 01:54:56,600
And I would just argue that. I mean, post Vatican two,

1831
01:54:56,680 --> 01:55:00,640
the Church does not hold to what Lamentabiley says for sure.

1832
01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:05,279
Speaker 12: Even the Tatas poppy was obviously used to depose emperors

1833
01:55:05,319 --> 01:55:08,920
as well, so I mean they yeah, so yeah, that's fair.

1834
01:55:09,279 --> 01:55:11,560
Speaker 18: Okay, Yeah, I think that's everything.

1835
01:55:12,319 --> 01:55:12,680
Speaker 5: Thanks ja.

1836
01:55:13,960 --> 01:55:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see, I'm scrolling through Lamentabilia says stuff like, uh,

1837
01:55:24,439 --> 01:55:27,600
I know there's some of these propositions about temporal supremacy.

1838
01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:28,359
Let me see.

1839
01:55:45,119 --> 01:55:47,199
Speaker 12: In Vatican one as well, I believe I just read

1840
01:55:47,239 --> 01:55:52,239
it recently. It did talk about how it's wrong to

1841
01:55:52,359 --> 01:55:55,600
have the like religious liberty of Protestants as well, so

1842
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:58,359
I think that's also a pretty strong No.

1843
01:55:58,479 --> 01:56:00,760
Speaker 2: Actually, well there's actually quite a few. There's not. It's

1844
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:05,119
I always forget these encyclicals. But if you get the Tan.

1845
01:56:05,079 --> 01:56:09,199
Speaker 18: Books, Quanticua Libertas as well, that's it.

1846
01:56:09,319 --> 01:56:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's Quanticua, there's Lamentabilli, there's Pacindi Dominici, Grades of Pies,

1847
01:56:15,880 --> 01:56:21,760
the tenth and what's it called. It's called Popes against

1848
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:24,319
the Modern Errors. It has all of these, do you

1849
01:56:24,359 --> 01:56:25,159
know what I'm talking about?

1850
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:25,960
Speaker 8: Yeah?

1851
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that book from Tan right here, it has all

1852
01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:32,039
those sixteen papal documents in it.

1853
01:56:34,279 --> 01:56:37,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, Catholic answers response was that although they're not teaching

1854
01:56:38,079 --> 01:56:39,359
a complete.

1855
01:56:38,960 --> 01:56:41,640
Speaker 18: Religious liberty, they're just saying it's allowed. So they thought

1856
01:56:41,680 --> 01:56:45,560
that that was a good reputation to that.

1857
01:56:47,439 --> 01:56:50,720
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, that's I need a better answer to this.

1858
01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:54,319
So here's the sixteen documents. If you don't want to

1859
01:56:54,319 --> 01:56:55,640
get this book. By the way, here is a full

1860
01:56:55,880 --> 01:56:58,319
Tan Books offers the entire book as a PDF. So

1861
01:56:58,399 --> 01:57:00,199
I'll give this to you guys in the chat. But

1862
01:57:00,479 --> 01:57:05,319
the specific papal and cyclicals and documents are Mara revalse

1863
01:57:05,439 --> 01:57:09,079
against liberalism and and by the way, some of these

1864
01:57:09,239 --> 01:57:14,079
will reference the temporal supremacy of the church as still binding.

1865
01:57:14,479 --> 01:57:16,319
Syllabus of errors excuse me, that's the one I could.

1866
01:57:16,520 --> 01:57:20,279
It's Lamentabilly and syllabus of errors and syllables of errors

1867
01:57:20,359 --> 01:57:22,119
is attached to vout Itican one for those who don't know.

1868
01:57:23,199 --> 01:57:27,640
But Silvia Savars talks about errors regarding the civil power

1869
01:57:27,760 --> 01:57:31,479
of the Roman pontiff. That's it. Let me pull that up.

1870
01:57:34,520 --> 01:57:37,760
I was getting Lamentabilly and the Silaba Savars mixed up,

1871
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:59,399
so let me pull that up. Okay, let's see Syllaba

1872
01:57:59,439 --> 01:58:05,279
Savars after the condemnation of socialism and communism. In section eighteen,

1873
01:58:05,520 --> 01:58:08,319
it goes into errors concerning the Church and her rights.

1874
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:13,279
The Church is not a perfect society. These are a

1875
01:58:13,319 --> 01:58:18,600
condemned proposition. The ecclesiastical power auto exercises authority without permission

1876
01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:22,159
of the civil government. Assume me ought not. So this

1877
01:58:22,319 --> 01:58:24,960
is condemning the state in the church. The church has

1878
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:28,399
not the power defining dogmatically that the Catholic religion is

1879
01:58:28,439 --> 01:58:32,119
the only true religion. So this is still affirming Christian

1880
01:58:32,199 --> 01:58:38,560
states and Christian christianization of the civil states. Specifically, it's

1881
01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:45,840
twenty one Roman pontiffs and acumenical councils wandered outside their

1882
01:58:45,920 --> 01:58:50,840
limits and ussurped the rights of princes. This is a

1883
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:53,479
critique that I'm making, Okay, So when you hear me

1884
01:58:53,560 --> 01:58:58,119
saying that the Roman pontiff is not the quizos Hoderock,

1885
01:58:58,479 --> 01:59:02,520
this is condemning that proposition right here. The Church does

1886
01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:05,279
not have the power of force, nor does she have

1887
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:08,319
temporal power. Condemned proposition right there.

1888
01:59:10,159 --> 01:59:12,680
Speaker 18: Okay, yeah, interesting, all right, And.

1889
01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:16,039
Speaker 2: By the way, there's more if you keep going. Besides

1890
01:59:16,079 --> 01:59:19,520
the power of the episcopate, the temporal power that has

1891
01:59:19,560 --> 01:59:23,159
been attributed to it by the civil authority can be

1892
01:59:23,319 --> 01:59:29,960
revoked condemned. So you'll notice here in the twenties, not

1893
01:59:30,159 --> 01:59:34,000
nineteen twenties, but in the twenties numbered of the document

1894
01:59:34,079 --> 01:59:36,520
Silver Savaras of eighteen sixty four, which is attached to

1895
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:43,520
Vatican One, throughout the numbers twenty to twenty nine or

1896
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:52,079
thirty ish is still upholding the temporal supremacy ow ambishops.

1897
01:59:52,079 --> 01:59:55,119
So again this is even stronger for my case because

1898
01:59:55,159 --> 02:00:00,039
this means that temporal supremacy was taught from dictatus a

1899
02:00:00,680 --> 02:00:03,319
unam sank them all the way up until the Syllabus

1900
02:00:03,359 --> 02:00:07,840
of Airs in eighteen sixty four attached the Vatican One,

1901
02:00:09,479 --> 02:00:12,760
and it even cites the other documents where this has continued.

1902
02:00:13,960 --> 02:00:21,920
These so when you see that the church, the Roman Church,

1903
02:00:22,119 --> 02:00:22,159
is