Speaker 1: Hey everybody.
Speaker 2: I'm Sierra and I'm Ben, and welcome back to another
Speaker 2: episode of The Unsolved Couple, where every week Ben and
Speaker 2: I recap one of your original gateway drugs into true.
Speaker 1: Crime unsolved mysteries.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm excited. It's crime Con week. I will be
Speaker 2: reporting after we get back. There's going to be heads up.
Speaker 2: This week's episode is actually going to be split into two.
Speaker 2: It'll make sense in a little while. We'll get into that.
Speaker 2: But before we get rocking and rolling on today's episode,
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Speaker 1: Okay, So.
Speaker 2: I loved today's episode that we're recapping.
Speaker 1: Ben was not in. I absolutely freaking hated this episode.
Speaker 2: And you're gonna know that I loved it because between
Speaker 2: the two episodes, I have seventeen pages of notes.
Speaker 1: I have one. Seriously, yep, let's just I'm going to acknowledge,
Speaker 1: okay that I got a computer.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, Ben's notes have shifted, you guys from and
Speaker 2: it's not even open right now, so when he still
Speaker 2: is going to have to at some point say hold.
Speaker 1: On, let me let the notes. Yep. But I I
Speaker 1: can't tell you how much I hated this episode. It
Speaker 1: annoyed me. I thought it was incredible and this was
Speaker 1: hands down the hardest episode for me to sit down
Speaker 1: and do my notes on. I just I didn't care
Speaker 1: for the way they present it.
Speaker 2: They definitely take a change, right, it is a they
Speaker 2: So we are covering its season four what episode twenty three?
Speaker 1: So what's it called?
Speaker 2: Because they said it a thousand times been the unsolved
Speaker 2: mystery of.
Speaker 1: If I have to hear this word, you're going to
Speaker 1: hear it one more time, the diabolical Mind.
Speaker 2: So it's called it's a special episode called.
Speaker 1: The diet balla mind. Do you know how many times
Speaker 1: Robert Stack he said it a lot, the diabolical mind.
Speaker 1: I don't like that word diabolical. Yep, I don't like it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I don't know. Just because
Speaker 1: I don't like something doesn't mean I have a reason,
Speaker 1: all right. I don't have to have a reason. I
Speaker 1: don't want a reason. I just want to say I
Speaker 1: don't like it, okay, fair, And maybe this episode ruined
Speaker 1: it for me, maybe because it was said so many times.
Speaker 1: So I looked at the history of this.
Speaker 2: As we know, film Rise bought the rights to the
Speaker 2: show Unsolved Mysteries, and for whatever reason, and this is
Speaker 2: the Unsolved Mysteries about the show Unsolved Mysteries, they removed
Speaker 2: a lot of stories. I think I've seen a number
Speaker 2: of like in the upwards of a couple of hundred cases.
Speaker 1: Hundreds of cases. I told you I did, I dug in, yes,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot even up to the point we
Speaker 1: are at a lot of stories. That's what I was
Speaker 1: going to say.
Speaker 2: This special edition Unsolved Mysteries episode was originally supposed to
Speaker 2: be their one hundredth episode, which makes sense as to
Speaker 2: why they kind of stepped outside of their norm.
Speaker 1: Oh it doesn't.
Speaker 2: We we did the Amy Bradley case on our one
Speaker 2: year anniversary.
Speaker 1: We stepped outside of our box, Yes, but I don't.
Speaker 2: My point is is that we're actually only at like
Speaker 2: ninety something episode, so they're there alone is like six
Speaker 2: seven episodes worth of content missing from the original aired
Speaker 2: versions of these. So this was originally their one hundredth
Speaker 2: episode of Unsolved Mysteries, and we today are going to
Speaker 2: actually break it into part one in part two because
Speaker 2: apparently one of us actually prepared a whole script for
Speaker 2: two episodes. So when I watched this, Ben Brog, what
Speaker 2: are you.
Speaker 1: Trying to say? Are you throwing shade? As your co.
Speaker 2: Host, I'm throwing a little bit of shade because I'm
Speaker 2: shocked that you have one page of notes. So when
Speaker 2: I watched this originally, it felt like a little overwhelming, because, yes,
Speaker 2: how are we going to share this because it's not
Speaker 2: recap and update or you know what's happening today. It's
Speaker 2: all of these different stories and this reminds it's just
Speaker 2: it's the mystery of why people do terrible things to
Speaker 2: other people.
Speaker 1: It's a drive by and in the.
Speaker 2: World of true crime that Ben is not a part
Speaker 2: of a lot of people have asked this question, how
Speaker 2: do people become this quote unquote diabolical? Is it nature?
Speaker 2: Is it nurture? Is it a combination of the two?
Speaker 2: Are there early warning signs that you can be aware of,
Speaker 2: are there paths of recovery and treatment and all? And
Speaker 2: these questions today are still fiercely talked about and debated
Speaker 2: within the world of true crime. And so I have
Speaker 2: always found that aspect of the psychology and sociology.
Speaker 1: Of it all very interesting.
Speaker 2: So I found this story, or this case, these cases,
Speaker 2: I thought the way this was laid out was really
Speaker 2: an opening conversation to have about that.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: Off the top, I'm going to read to you what
Speaker 2: Robert Stack said to us quote. The words diabolical and
Speaker 2: sociopath bring to mind the lured villains from horror movies,
Speaker 2: out of control, glassy eyed, unkept manics. Real life sociopaths
Speaker 2: bear little resemblance to these movie mad men. They hold jobs,
Speaker 2: shop for groceries, and appear no different than the rest
Speaker 2: of us. Most of the time. Some psychiatrists argue that
Speaker 2: the focus on violent and criminal psychopath behavior has marginalized
Speaker 2: the study of what they call quote successful psychopaths, people
Speaker 2: who have psychopathic tendencies but who can stay out of
Speaker 2: trouble and perhaps even benefit from these traits in some way.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of the introduction to this is how
Speaker 2: are some people's psychopaths successful in Some psychopaths become terrible
Speaker 2: human beings in the world and go on to commit
Speaker 2: great atrocities, And so we dive into a few of them. Okay,
Speaker 2: so I'm going to tell you sure we sure do.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to tell you guys about a few
Speaker 2: of the psychopaths mentioned on that you guys.
Speaker 1: Are about to find out how little I know.
Speaker 2: And part of the reason I was excited about this
Speaker 2: is because I have a feeling Ben is not. To
Speaker 2: most of us listening to true crime podcasts, these names
Speaker 2: are going to be quite familiar, and their stories are
Speaker 2: quite familiar to us. I think for Ben, he probably
Speaker 2: hasn't heard a lot of these things before. And I
Speaker 2: just think I think, as you are listening to these
Speaker 2: two cases that I'm going to talk about, it's important
Speaker 2: to note maybe some similarities in childhood and different events
Speaker 2: and things like that, so that we can go on
Speaker 2: to have the conversation about nature versus nurture. Okay, so
Speaker 2: we start out. Psychopaths often succeed in business because of
Speaker 2: their defining traits such as lack of empathy, fearless dominance,
Speaker 2: and a superficial charm. This all aligns well with the
Speaker 2: demands of a corporate environment. It's very likely that you
Speaker 2: interact with some of these people who fit these traits
Speaker 2: or these definitions such as superficial, egotistical, maybe of a
Speaker 2: gut feeling that they're untrustworthy, and who seem to conceal
Speaker 2: some sort of anti social tendencies. But what happens when
Speaker 2: someone can't keep a lid on the darker side of
Speaker 2: this psychopathic spectrum? We are introduced to John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 2: Did you know anything about John Wayne Gacy? Ben before
Speaker 2: we before you watched this episode.
Speaker 1: So I've heard the name, And if someone asked, have
Speaker 1: you ever heard of John Wayne Gacy and who is he?
Speaker 1: I'd be able to say, I've heard the name. Is
Speaker 1: a serial killer. That is literally all I know. That's
Speaker 1: all you know. I don't know who he killed. Or
Speaker 1: like the victims, Like what what I'm trying to say,
Speaker 1: because obviously serial killers kill a type of people, women, men, children,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 2: And I don't like to use word famous when it
Speaker 2: comes to serial killers because I think that feeds into
Speaker 2: a negative connotation about them being celebritized or whatever. But
Speaker 2: I will say that they do become infamous because of
Speaker 2: what they what kind of mark they left on society. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: you understand, you know who the name John Wyn Gacy is.
Speaker 2: Outside of the fact that he's a known serial killer.
Speaker 2: That's about all you know.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you what decade he willson. I would
Speaker 1: believe it's the seventies or the eighties. Okay, buck up, obvious,
Speaker 1: obviously it's before the because this is this. But if
Speaker 1: someone asked me, like, what decade did he kill him?
Speaker 1: Able to tell?
Speaker 2: All right, So serial killer John Wayne Gacy, who is
Speaker 2: most notably known for rape, torture and murder of at
Speaker 2: least thirty three young men and boys between nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: two and nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 1: See, if someone asked me, I would have obviously usually
Speaker 1: men kill women. Yeah, I would have guessed. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would have guessed we're going to get into it. Okay.
Speaker 2: So, and this all took place in Norwood Park Township,
Speaker 2: which is a suburb just outside of Chicago, Illinois. He
Speaker 2: became Illinois, not Illinois, sorry, even though there's an S
Speaker 2: on the end of Illinois. He became known as Illinois.
Speaker 2: He became known as the quote killer clown. Did you
Speaker 2: know that about him?
Speaker 1: No? No, okay, I mean, obviously in this episode they
Speaker 1: said he was a clown. Didn't know that, but yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: Due to his public performances as a clown prior to
Speaker 2: the discovery of his crimes, John WAYN. Gacy committed all
Speaker 2: of his known murders inside of his ranch style house. Typically,
Speaker 2: he would lure the victims to his home and dupe
Speaker 2: them into putting on a pair of handcuffs in the
Speaker 2: kind of world of make believe. He was pretending with
Speaker 2: these boys of demonstrating a magic trick, and then he
Speaker 2: would proceed to rape, torture, and bind like just a
Speaker 2: total fear before killing these victims by either exphyxiation or
Speaker 2: strangulation with a Girat twenty six victims were buried within
Speaker 2: the crawl space of his own personal home that he
Speaker 2: lived in.
Speaker 1: M hmm, that's disturbing.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's where the term diabolical might ring a bell.
Speaker 2: John wayn Geese. See, so I'm gonna let's rewind a
Speaker 2: little bit. We're going to start back at the beginning.
Speaker 2: So he was born in Chicago, Illinois, March seventeenth, nineteen
Speaker 2: forty two, the second of three children and the only
Speaker 2: son of a father that was an auto repair mechanic
Speaker 2: and a World War One veteran, and his mother was,
Speaker 2: according to I believe a census, a homemaker. Gaysey was
Speaker 2: known to have a close relationship with his mother and
Speaker 2: two sisters, but had a difficult relationship with his father,
Speaker 2: who was known to be an alcoholic and had a
Speaker 2: reputation for being verbally and physically abusive to all members
Speaker 2: of the family, according to Gacy. Now, I will say
Speaker 2: a lot of the information we have about John Wayne
Speaker 2: Gacy comes from his own accounts, so take that with
Speaker 2: a grain of salt. From my understanding, he was one
Speaker 2: of the people that participated in the FBI's building of
Speaker 2: the behavior on analysis unit that they have and the
Speaker 2: ability to what's the word I'm looking for when they
Speaker 2: build a profile of a killer or a profile of
Speaker 2: a criminal. He was one of the foundations of that.
Speaker 2: From my understanding, he gave a lot of interviews and
Speaker 2: worked closely with the FBI, but that's probably because he
Speaker 2: was a narcissist and he liked talking about himself. So
Speaker 2: one of his earliest childhood memories was of his father
Speaker 2: beating him around the age of four for accidentally disarranging
Speaker 2: a car engine components. His mother tried to shield her
Speaker 2: son from the father's abuse, which resulted in accusations that
Speaker 2: John was a sissy and a mama's boy who would
Speaker 2: probably and I use these terms because these are direct
Speaker 2: quotes from this, but I do understand that these terms
Speaker 2: that I'm going to say, some of them might be
Speaker 2: offensive to people. That is not my intent. It is
Speaker 2: to show what he is telling us happen. So quote
Speaker 2: probably grew up to be queer end quote. Gaysey also
Speaker 2: claimed that he was molested by a family member starting
Speaker 2: at an early agent and went on through most of
Speaker 2: his childhood. In early adult life, Gacy actually moved out
Speaker 2: of his house to Las Vegas. And I didn't write
Speaker 2: this down, but it seemed like after a pretty tumultuous
Speaker 2: argument with his father in a long term battle. His
Speaker 2: dad purchased him a vehicle or something but put it
Speaker 2: in his name, and John was paying his father back,
Speaker 2: but he used it as control and one day he
Speaker 2: just finally had enough for my understanding and he moved
Speaker 2: out to Las Vegas. During this time, he worked for
Speaker 2: an ambulance service before he was actually transferred to a
Speaker 2: before it was transferred to the Palm Mortuary Company, where
Speaker 2: he worked as a mortuary attendant for about three months.
Speaker 2: During that time, he observed embalming and occasionally served as
Speaker 2: a pallbearer. He claimed that after one evening he had
Speaker 2: an incident take place that scared him. He said that
Speaker 2: he was alone at the mortuary and he climbed into
Speaker 2: the coffin of a male teenage boyhood passed away, and
Speaker 2: spent the evening embracing and caressing the body. Something about
Speaker 2: this incident, at least according to him, scared him enough
Speaker 2: that he moved back to Illinois and enrolled in the
Speaker 2: Northwest Business College. He graduated in nineteen sixty three and
Speaker 2: took a manager's training position in the Noonbush Shoe Company,
Speaker 2: and by nineteen eighty four he was promoted to department
Speaker 2: manager and became engaged to a woman named Marlon or
Speaker 2: Maryland sorry, she was a coworker. So I think it's
Speaker 2: interesting that we see waves of this of these times
Speaker 2: in John Wayne Gacy's life, and you see it throughout
Speaker 2: people that have watched or learned things about other infamous
Speaker 2: serial killers, where they have these times where they try
Speaker 2: to kind of almost put this mask on to pretend
Speaker 2: to be normal, and it just doesn't ever seem to
Speaker 2: last that long.
Speaker 1: But the whole point of.
Speaker 2: This conversation is that Gaysey was well beloved within his community,
Speaker 2: even though early on he had some major red flags.
Speaker 2: He went on to join the local chapter of the
Speaker 2: jc's I honestly don't know what that is. I think
Speaker 2: it's like a moose lodge sort of thing. Do you
Speaker 2: have any idea what that is? No?
Speaker 1: No, okay.
Speaker 2: They seem to do a lot of like charity work
Speaker 2: and different things for whatever community.
Speaker 1: What's a moose lodge. I think a moose lodge is
Speaker 1: because whatever it is, I kind of want to be
Speaker 1: a part of it.
Speaker 2: I don't think I have a moose lodge around here.
Speaker 2: But it was like the Chamber of where there's all
Speaker 2: of these like little sort of like networking groups you
Speaker 2: can pay a small fee to be a part of,
Speaker 2: and you go and you have these meetings, and you
Speaker 2: do charity work, and you do all these different things.
Speaker 2: But you also co mingle with these other business owners
Speaker 2: or different members of the community to also kind of
Speaker 2: grow your businesses within that. So he joined the jc's
Speaker 2: and to whom he frequently devoted a lot of time
Speaker 2: in the just j C. So it's jay C E
Speaker 2: E S j c's And it.
Speaker 1: Was like a group. Yeah, I have a computer, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna look it up. I'm gonna payogle.
Speaker 2: So he devoted a lot of time and effort to
Speaker 2: community fundraising projects, and by nineteen sixty five, Gasey had
Speaker 2: raised Risen to the position of vice president of the
Speaker 2: Springfold the Springfield Chapter and was actually named the third
Speaker 2: most outstanding member in all of Illinois. So him and
Speaker 2: his wife went on to marry in September of nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty four, and at this time his father in law
Speaker 2: purchased three KFCs in.
Speaker 1: Waterloo, Iowa.
Speaker 2: The couple actually relocated so that Gaysey could manage the restaurants,
Speaker 2: and they moved into her childhood home.
Speaker 1: It is a nonprofit civic organization for young professionals, entrepreneurs,
Speaker 1: and active citizens ages eighteen to forty. Man, they discriminate,
Speaker 1: so there you go. So, yeah, the same thing.
Speaker 2: There's a thousand different brands of these everywhere you go.
Speaker 1: So they moved in to.
Speaker 2: His wife's former home, and he was offered a really
Speaker 2: lucrative salary. At one point he would receive fifteen thousand
Speaker 2: per year, which is equivalent to about one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty six thousand dollars a year in a salary in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, which means inflation has really gotten out
Speaker 2: of control of that. What yu is this nineteen sixty four?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Plus he would actually also bring in a share
Speaker 2: of the restaurant's profits. So this man and I don't
Speaker 2: know if he if they purchased there, I couldn't find
Speaker 2: this information. It seems like they gave him a house
Speaker 2: and a job and a cush salary. This man is
Speaker 2: potentially set up for like the rest of his life.
Speaker 2: He didn't purchase the KFCs and KFCs at this time, dude,
Speaker 2: that was peak KFCs.
Speaker 1: So sorry, am I a distract for just a second.
Speaker 1: That's fine. This story is very dark. So if you've
Speaker 1: got a fun, lighthearted if anyone's ever interested, go listen
Speaker 1: to Micro, the guy that does dirty jobs. He has
Speaker 1: a podcast and it's called The Way I Heard It.
Speaker 1: It's different now, but when he started it, they're literally
Speaker 1: six to ten minutes long, and he tells a story
Speaker 1: of a something in history, but you don't know what
Speaker 1: it is until the end, and he tells you, like
Speaker 1: what who it was? A person? He tells the story
Speaker 1: of Colonel Sanders and his KFC. It's awesome. I won't
Speaker 1: spoil it for you. It's great. I don't know it's
Speaker 1: I think the episode is the Man with a Secret
Speaker 1: or something like that. It is great. Go find it,
Speaker 1: go listen to it, and you'll be like, holy smokes.
Speaker 1: And that's where KFC came from. It's awesome. I think
Speaker 1: like our early childhood. I think I remember the biscuits
Speaker 1: were amazing.
Speaker 2: I think by the time we were like sixteen plus
Speaker 2: where no one was like, let's go to KFC.
Speaker 1: But I remember I was like a younger kid.
Speaker 2: If your mom brought home the bucket of KFC, it
Speaker 2: was good.
Speaker 1: It was going to be a good day. I agree,
Speaker 1: and but I like, I grew up with seven kids.
Speaker 1: Do you know how many times I had KFC before
Speaker 1: I was ten? Like once? I think my so.
Speaker 2: My parents both like worked part mostly on and off.
Speaker 2: They both worked most of my childhood. Once I was
Speaker 2: old enough to stay them, and I remember KFC happened,
Speaker 2: and probably not every week, but maybe once a month
Speaker 2: or so, the bucket of KFC coming home with my mom,
Speaker 2: and it was going to be a good.
Speaker 1: Day, It was a good night. I was sorry I
Speaker 1: distracted you. It was the good old days of KFC.
Speaker 1: I'm not the good old days of good food. Okay.
Speaker 2: My whole point is is that by his early adulthood
Speaker 2: he has a house, a career, and from my understanding,
Speaker 2: he didn't.
Speaker 1: Even graduate high school. This is something that.
Speaker 2: Today people would love to have every opportunity. And if
Speaker 2: John wynng Gacy, which we will go to find out
Speaker 2: later he is officially diagnosed with psychopathic tendencies and different things,
Speaker 2: he could have chosen to channel those in a different direction,
Speaker 2: but unfortunately he doesn't. So during the same time him
Speaker 2: and his wife would go on to have two children.
Speaker 2: He actually from what according to him, made amends with
Speaker 2: his father and used the word quote perfect when talking
Speaker 2: about this period.
Speaker 1: Of his life.
Speaker 2: However, his tendencies started to lean towards grooming and sexual
Speaker 2: advances towards teenage boys, underage boys.
Speaker 1: From my understanding.
Speaker 2: In one report that during the time he owned all
Speaker 2: these KFCs or was running them, he made a quote
Speaker 2: clubhouse in the basement of the house he was living
Speaker 2: in that like everyone was invited to come to, but
Speaker 2: really only like the young boys working at KFC were
Speaker 2: invited to come to, and he provided them alcohol and
Speaker 2: then proceeded to use that opportunity to you know, take
Speaker 2: advantage of these boys. So May tenth, nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 2: Casey's actually indicted on a sodomy charge, which is no joke,
Speaker 2: Like that's not a small charge. November seventh, he pled
Speaker 2: s guilty. He in nineteen sixty eight, he pleads guilty
Speaker 2: to one kind asodomy and is sentenced to ten years
Speaker 2: in prison. That same day, his wife files for divorce. Okay,
Speaker 2: so now we start to see.
Speaker 1: The things fall apart.
Speaker 2: Things are falling apart, and be ready to get mad
Speaker 2: because we're gonna find out. I'm gonna tell you here
Speaker 2: in a minute, how long he actually served, because the
Speaker 2: question is is, just like we talked about what last week,
Speaker 2: why are some of these.
Speaker 1: People's sentenced for so long?
Speaker 2: And then the parole board just like or sentenced to
Speaker 2: life or death and then the parole board decides to
Speaker 2: let them out.
Speaker 1: I forgot about that. Yeah, was terrible. That was terrible.
Speaker 2: So during his incarceration, of course, the mask of being
Speaker 2: this like amazing charming, we see the second side of
Speaker 2: the psychopath, right, the ability to trick diabolic, diabolical side,
Speaker 2: right where he rapidly acquires a reputation as a quote
Speaker 2: model prisoner and within months of the arrival. And from
Speaker 2: my understanding, this is not easy to do within the
Speaker 2: walls of prison. And I will say most of my
Speaker 2: knowledge on prison comes from the show Orange just the
Speaker 2: New Black, And I understand that that is not correct.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's real life?
Speaker 2: To no, but I do love that show. He is
Speaker 2: risen to the position of head cook. And based on
Speaker 2: my knowledge of the show Orange is the new Back,
Speaker 2: head Cook is like where it's at. That's like Kingpin,
Speaker 2: That's that is the that's what everyone wants.
Speaker 1: Everybody is trying to come in and within a few
Speaker 1: months to have that position, it's not easy to do.
Speaker 2: He also, of course, because why not there is a
Speaker 2: JC chapter within the prison, because who doesn't need marketing
Speaker 2: and shared like mentorship then men inside prison, and during
Speaker 2: his incarceration he rows the membership from fifty to six
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty men. So we're sharreting. By this time,
Speaker 2: we know he has a charming side.
Speaker 1: Gaysey, he has a charming personality.
Speaker 2: His charming personality, so Gaycy secures an increase in the
Speaker 2: inmates daily in their daily pay in the prison mess
Speaker 2: hall and supervises several projects improving conditions for the inmate.
Speaker 2: He is in charge of getting the funding and installation
Speaker 2: of a miniature golf course within prison and was presented
Speaker 2: with a Distinguished Service Award for his efforts within the
Speaker 2: inmate JC chapter. And I would like to point out
Speaker 2: he's not just charming the inmates, he's charming the leadership
Speaker 2: within the prison. The inmates, like everyone is termed by
Speaker 2: this guy. After only serving eighteen months, this man is
Speaker 2: granted her role from a ten year sentence.
Speaker 1: It is actually shocking back then because in the sixties
Speaker 1: and seventies I could be wrong, but it seemed like
Speaker 1: people serve more of their sentence.
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, we like to think, I think
Speaker 2: as people have never been involved in that side of
Speaker 2: Like I've never been to prison, I've ever been that
Speaker 2: people are actually serving a majority of their sentence.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, like nowadays, like a lot of
Speaker 1: times if it's not murder.
Speaker 2: But here's the best part. He was granted parole. His
Speaker 2: probation was only twelve months, so it wasn't even like
Speaker 2: he was at least on probation for the.
Speaker 1: Rest because usually your parole, like your probation is the
Speaker 1: length of your sentence. Yep.
Speaker 2: So he was only granted a year of probation.
Speaker 1: So in the end, he really only did two and
Speaker 1: a half years of being monitored by the system.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: So he returns to Chicago, moves in with his mother,
Speaker 2: and was it within months?
Speaker 1: You guys.
Speaker 2: While on probation, Gasey is charged two separate times for
Speaker 2: sexually assaulting a teenage boy. Each case is dismissed for us.
Speaker 1: So he broke his probation. Yeah, but we're back to
Speaker 1: prison and finished his since.
Speaker 2: But for some unknown reason, the Iowa Board of Parole
Speaker 2: never was informed about these incidents because both charges ended
Speaker 2: up being dismissed. And I will say it seems like
Speaker 2: they were dismissed because these were young boys that were
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted by a man. And I even to this day,
Speaker 2: victims coming forward is hard. I can't imagine when you
Speaker 2: are dealing with that as a young boy having to
Speaker 2: come forward about it. Not that any victim is harder
Speaker 2: than the other to come forward, however, it is a
Speaker 2: very underreported crime. And so it seems like for a
Speaker 2: handful of reasons within that sphere, the cases were dropped
Speaker 2: so and the par board was never informed about these
Speaker 2: and this seems to kind of be the pattern that
Speaker 2: Gacy would live. He would gain the trust of people
Speaker 2: around him, becoming well liked and loved by members of
Speaker 2: his community. He hosted annual summer parties. These events were
Speaker 2: attended by up to four hundred people, including neighbors, politicians,
Speaker 2: business associates. He regularly performed at fundraising events and parades.
Speaker 2: In addition to volunteering at a local children's hospital as
Speaker 2: Pogo the Clown, Gasey spent time inside the Democratic Party.
Speaker 2: Within politics, he served as the Norwood Park Township street
Speaker 2: light Committee, subsequently earning him this Captain's title, and in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five, he's appointed the director of Chicago's annual
Speaker 2: Polish Constitutional Day Parade. Through his work with the parade,
Speaker 2: which he would supervise until nineteen seventy eight. This is
Speaker 2: where we see Gasey met and is pictured with the
Speaker 2: First Lady, Rosalind Carter, wearing a quote s pin indicating
Speaker 2: a person gave a person that was given special clearance
Speaker 2: to spend time around the First Lady. The event later
Speaker 2: became uh in the event later an ambassador to like, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: given special clearance that was given to him by the
Speaker 2: ambassador of the United States Secret Service. This entire time,
Speaker 2: you guys that he's doing all these things within the community,
Speaker 2: hosting parties and being part of these committees and meeting
Speaker 2: the First Lady, he's actively sexually assaulting and murdering young
Speaker 2: men within the same community. So Caasey's finally brought to
Speaker 2: trial in February sixth, nineteen eighty and charged with thirty
Speaker 2: three murders. Thirty three murders. That's a lot of murders.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so how did they get to them?
Speaker 2: I know, I love that you are intrigued by that.
Speaker 2: I actually I will tell you, guys, I have a
Speaker 2: couple pages of notes. I'm trying to give you a
Speaker 2: very brief summary in case anyone listening, like Ben, doesn't
Speaker 2: know the history of John Wayne Gacy. I left a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff out.
Speaker 1: It's okay, okay, anyone that's listening, it's okay. If you
Speaker 1: don't I you can be on my side. Yes, I
Speaker 1: left a lot of stuff out. I'm just kind of
Speaker 1: giving you the.
Speaker 2: Cliff notes version of the both sides of him. So
Speaker 2: the jury went on to deliverate only for an hour
Speaker 2: and fifty minutes, which I'm sure even that they probably
Speaker 2: figured it out within a few minutes. And then we're like,
Speaker 2: I mean, we we have to give it a little.
Speaker 1: While eight lunch. That's probably what they're doing, Like, you
Speaker 1: know what, let's just eat some lunch. So it looks
Speaker 1: like we talked about this. Yeah. And then well, because
Speaker 1: it was probably done in like two minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're going to find out all of the
Speaker 2: bodies are buried in his house.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. They probably as they walked in
Speaker 1: the door of the deliberation room, they're like, yeah, He's
Speaker 1: technically not all bodies.
Speaker 2: There's a few bodies that were found in a river
Speaker 2: within a few miles.
Speaker 1: Of his home.
Speaker 2: But so Gaysey's actually found guilty of thirty three charges
Speaker 2: of murder and also found guilty of sexually assault and
Speaker 2: taking indecent liberties with a child. So, on the morning
Speaker 2: of May ninth, nineteen ninety four, Gaysey is transferred to
Speaker 2: Statesville Correction Center to be executed. That afternoon, he was
Speaker 2: allowed a private picnic on the grounds with his family,
Speaker 2: and I have this information for you. For his last meal, Benjamin,
Speaker 2: this is what Gaysey ordered. A bucket of KFC French fries,
Speaker 2: a dozen fried shrimp, a basket of fresh strawberries, and
Speaker 2: a diet coke.
Speaker 1: I hate that he asked for a diet coke. I
Speaker 1: knew you would when I heard that, Like KFC. Huh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's actually a very interesting there's a TikTok account
Speaker 2: or maybe it's in his Instagram account who like talks
Speaker 2: about inmates of all kinds death row inmates of their
Speaker 2: last meals and then like tries to eat them and
Speaker 2: a lot of them are really gross. But yeah, KFC
Speaker 2: French fries, a dozen fried shrimps. We would be first drubber,
Speaker 2: he's got to be healthy, I guess at some point,
Speaker 2: and then diet coke. So that is a story of
Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy. Can you see from that kind of
Speaker 2: recount of that how he became so infamous because of
Speaker 2: what he did?
Speaker 1: Well, I think anyone that kills thirty three people, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of people.
Speaker 2: But also on top of that, the scary part is
Speaker 2: is that this man like is throwing block parties and
Speaker 2: is photographed with the first lady. That's not something that
Speaker 2: everybody gets like access to. And he also at one
Speaker 2: point like worked in a construction company and like offered
Speaker 2: and volunteered to help people that were like not able
Speaker 2: to pay their bills or.
Speaker 1: Do different things.
Speaker 2: Like there was this other side of him that was
Speaker 2: like a really good person. But was that actually john
Speaker 2: Wyn Gacy or was that John Wyn Gacy pretending to
Speaker 2: be what he thought the world wanted to see so
Speaker 2: that he could do what he wanted to do. And
Speaker 2: with his childhood history, was this man born a psychopath
Speaker 2: or based on some of the things he went through
Speaker 2: in his childhood? Was this created or was it a
Speaker 2: combination of both?
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do you have any thoughts. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously I'm not a psychologist.
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone is claiming that we.
Speaker 1: Were a sociologist.
Speaker 2: Or whatever, psychiatrist or any of those things, any of
Speaker 2: the phs.
Speaker 1: Here's one thing, and this is me giving a little
Speaker 1: bit of credence to unsolved mysteries. Okay, in unsolved mysteries,
Speaker 1: I have now heard of many of people's childhoods. We
Speaker 1: get a lot of lost loves. Some of them are
Speaker 1: pretty horrific, and they're amazing people. So I don't know
Speaker 1: where I'm going. All I'm saying is the thought that
Speaker 1: because your childhood was terrible, that then makes you a
Speaker 1: terrible person. I think is debunked in a way, because
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people in the world who
Speaker 1: grow up pretty terrible and go on to become amazing people.
Speaker 1: And maybe there was something in there along the way
Speaker 1: that helped shape them. But I just don't think that.
Speaker 1: I don't know. There are kids that grow up in
Speaker 1: orphanages and are never loved till they're eighteen, and then
Speaker 1: they go out and they find someone and they love
Speaker 1: and they start a family and they become good people.
Speaker 1: So can we say that, Well, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: kids that grow up and are abused physically and sexually
Speaker 1: and then go on and be pillars of society. Take
Speaker 1: take the girl that you told by her father who
Speaker 1: was a police officer in Chicago, and she's she became
Speaker 1: an amazing person and a victim, I mean, a supporter
Speaker 1: of victims. So I guess I'm sure can you say
Speaker 1: that that contributed to it absolutely? But also there is
Speaker 1: the flip side of that. People then have that and
Speaker 1: then go on and they that. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying one way
Speaker 1: or another. I'm just saying you can make the argument
Speaker 1: both ways.
Speaker 2: I think that's why it's such a fascinating conversation, and
Speaker 2: I think to this day why a lot of people
Speaker 2: in this field of study are trying to I don't
Speaker 2: think anyone thinks and I could be wrong. I'm sure
Speaker 2: there are people out there with PhDs that think it
Speaker 2: is solely one or solely the other. I think most
Speaker 2: of the consensus is is that it is innately a
Speaker 2: combination of both born with an underlying personality disorder and
Speaker 2: then compound it with some sort of childhood trauma that
Speaker 2: you then go on to become a terrible person, and
Speaker 2: instead of maybe becoming the better person, you let the
Speaker 2: other side of you. I don't know it is you
Speaker 2: and I are both Yeah.
Speaker 1: You're right.
Speaker 2: I actually started going back to school at one point
Speaker 2: where I was going to learn about this field of
Speaker 2: study in the world of psychology and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: because I find it fascinating. But this is why I
Speaker 2: found this episode so fascinating, because I don't think that
Speaker 2: there is a correct answer for this, And I think
Speaker 2: you bring up a very good point. Why is it
Speaker 2: that some people choose to go on to either live
Speaker 2: just a normal lives or b go on to live
Speaker 2: extraordinary lives.
Speaker 1: They go on to do good and.
Speaker 2: Actually pursue a path to try to even though that
Speaker 2: childhood was never handed to them, to go on to
Speaker 2: create that childhood for other people.
Speaker 1: I just I think a lot of times people are
Speaker 1: trying to find the cause to then be able to
Speaker 1: diagnose it before, and it just goes to show that
Speaker 1: I don't think that you can say if obviously, I
Speaker 1: think we definitely know this in twenty twenty six, if
Speaker 1: this and this happens, this is what you're going to
Speaker 1: grow up to be. It just goes to show that.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of I'm sure there's people that
Speaker 1: grow up with great childhoods that then still go on
Speaker 1: to do terrible things. So there is no list of
Speaker 1: if these things happen or these events. All you can
Speaker 1: really do is look at people after they've done all
Speaker 1: these terrible things and say, I think this stuff possibly
Speaker 1: contributed to it. But you can't say that that stuff
Speaker 1: always contributes to it, because lots of people have that
Speaker 1: and go on and do good things. And there's a
Speaker 1: lot of people that grow up with perfectly fine lives
Speaker 1: and then still turn out to be terrible people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's actually and I spoke with I think this
Speaker 2: lady a little bit because at one point, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of the top of my head.
Speaker 1: She is she has a PhD in this, and she is.
Speaker 2: Trying her whole goal and she wrote a book about it,
Speaker 2: and all of this stuff is trying to help.
Speaker 1: Psychiatrists and stuff.
Speaker 2: Is there early warning signs that we can help kids
Speaker 2: that might be displaying signs of going down path a
Speaker 2: where we can give them the therapy and tools that
Speaker 2: they need so that we can make them into what
Speaker 2: you would call a more successful psychopath, that they've got
Speaker 2: the ability to channel that sort of desire to succeed
Speaker 2: in energy to be backstabbing in business and cut through
Speaker 2: in the business, in the courtroom as a lawyer, or
Speaker 2: whatever it is is. And I wish I could remember,
Speaker 2: because I listened to several of she was a guest
Speaker 2: on several podcasts. She had some really amazing insight on stuff.
Speaker 2: And that's a hard conversation to have, but I don't
Speaker 2: I find it fascinating. So the other case study that
Speaker 2: unsold because this is all unsolved mysteries, tells us about
Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy, and then they're gonna tell us about.
Speaker 1: They didn't tell us that much about Joan.
Speaker 2: I know, I kind of went overboard on this, but
Speaker 2: you know whatever, it's my podcast.
Speaker 1: I can do whatever I want.
Speaker 2: The next person that they tell us about, and then
Speaker 2: Ben's gonna tell us about two different people that maybe
Speaker 2: took their psychopathic behavior in a very different direction, but
Speaker 2: still not a good one. The next one I tell
Speaker 2: you about is a name infamous too many people within
Speaker 2: the world of true crime, Ted Bundy. Did you know
Speaker 2: a little bit more about Ted Bundy than you did,
Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 1: I think we've all heard about Tim Bundy. I definitely
Speaker 1: someone asked me, have erit Timmant? Yes, he's a serial killer.
Speaker 1: He killed women, maybe prostitutes, college students. All I know
Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy it was the seventies and eighties, and
Speaker 1: he was very charming and good looking. Yes, that's the
Speaker 1: extent of my knowledge, attendman, But I would know for
Speaker 1: a fact he was a serial killer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, John Wyn Gacy was not a good looking guy.
Speaker 2: He was a schlub of a man, soggy, mashed potatoes
Speaker 2: looking guy, the band aid that washes the still life.
Speaker 1: Was he executed? Yes? I thought he died because he
Speaker 1: was in prison for a long time.
Speaker 2: About the guy from California, Charles Manson, Charles Manson, is.
Speaker 1: I do know more about Charles wins I read the book.
Speaker 1: I read Helter Skelter. Sure you should be proud of
Speaker 1: me for that. I am proud of you for that.
Speaker 1: You know where I finished Helter Skelter. Tell me at
Speaker 1: Jerry Duty that's funny. Well, I did, because I was
Speaker 1: reading it, I was in it and here at least
Speaker 1: at that time. This was years ago. This was probably
Speaker 1: ten years ago.
Speaker 2: When I got We were weirding it at the same time.
Speaker 2: We were living in our old house, so it was when.
Speaker 1: Our kids were We had jury duty three times now,
Speaker 1: but this was the second time I had jury duty.
Speaker 1: And you all like, there's a big room and you
Speaker 1: all get called there, and then as the day goes on,
Speaker 1: they call your number and you go up to a courtroom,
Speaker 1: and there are some days where your number doesn't get called.
Speaker 1: That was that time. The other two times I did
Speaker 1: get called up to a courtroom. At that time, I
Speaker 1: sat in that room till three o'clock in the afternoon,
Speaker 1: from like eight in the morning, and I read pretty
Speaker 1: much the whole book. I was already in it, but
Speaker 1: I finished the book at jury duty that day.
Speaker 2: Anyways, for the record, just in case, another fun fact
Speaker 2: about jury duty at least term Pima County. You cannot
Speaker 2: take a crochet hook into because I had to also
Speaker 2: sit in that same room.
Speaker 1: I could have told you that if you asked me
Speaker 1: it's a crochet hook.
Speaker 2: I figured it's still yes, say I can take it
Speaker 2: onto the airplane.
Speaker 1: It's a courthouse with criminals. The courthouse needs it's a
Speaker 1: courthouse with criminals in there. I realized that the criminals
Speaker 1: are there tsa with a bunch of people that paid
Speaker 1: for a plane ticket. They're literally possible murderers there.
Speaker 2: It was like, do you have a long piece of
Speaker 2: metal in your bag? Because you have to go through
Speaker 2: a thing, and I was like, do you possibly have
Speaker 2: a shank in your bag? And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: I've got like a pen and he's like, yeah, maybe
Speaker 2: that's it. And I go, oh, I have a crochet
Speaker 2: hook and he's like, yeah, that would finally be it.
Speaker 2: And I was like, are you telling me I can't
Speaker 2: crochet while I'm sitting here? And he's like no, And
Speaker 2: I said, well, what if I brought in a plastic
Speaker 2: crochet hook and he said no, And I said, well,
Speaker 2: can then I bring in my embroidery kit and embroider
Speaker 2: and he said no, and I said cross ditch and
Speaker 2: he said no.
Speaker 1: And I said, you don't what.
Speaker 2: Am I supposed to do while I'm sitting here? Because
Speaker 2: I didn't want to actually just sit there and doom
Speaker 2: scroll on my phone. And I didn't bring a book
Speaker 2: with me because I brought my crochet kit.
Speaker 1: Well, I brought a book. Well, look at you Helter Skelter.
Speaker 2: That's so funny. Okay, so yeah, I think you're getting
Speaker 2: it confused. That's a different serial killer with a very
Speaker 2: different mo still a psychopath. Where he was charming, he
Speaker 2: was not good looking, also definitely had short man syndrome.
Speaker 2: So but Ted Bunny Ted Bundy, who also appeared on
Speaker 2: the outside to be a quote pillar of society. This
Speaker 2: is what I will tell you this. We talked about
Speaker 2: this sometimes as a female, specifically, studying men like this
Speaker 2: is terrifying because they are disarming. So Ted Bundy was
Speaker 2: born Theodore Robert Colwell November twenty fourth, n named Theodore
Speaker 2: Theodore Yet nineteen forty six to a female and was listen, well, okay,
Speaker 2: this one I'm taking was this is my point. He
Speaker 2: was brought into the earth via his mother, and I'm
Speaker 2: there's a lot of aneminity around people that are related
Speaker 2: to these people, and I'm not she's probably obviously still
Speaker 2: not alive anymore. But I'm not going to like name
Speaker 2: a bunch of people that were in this man's circle
Speaker 2: who didn't have anything to do with the terrible things
Speaker 2: that he did. So he was born to his mother
Speaker 2: inside the A Lizzazabeth lewed home for unwet mothers and
Speaker 2: his biological father. Technically, to this day has never been confirmed.
Speaker 2: Some family members expressed suspicion that he was actually a
Speaker 2: product of incest by the mother's father. However, from what
Speaker 2: I can find, and again a lot of this is
Speaker 2: unverifiable by a second or third source. A documentary film
Speaker 2: called Crazy Not Insane. A psychiatrists at the time claimed
Speaker 2: she received a sample of.
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy's blood.
Speaker 2: And tested the DNA against his like his family members,
Speaker 2: and it confirmed that he was not the product of incest. However,
Speaker 2: it could not find any way to verify or second
Speaker 2: source that. But that's what was out there, being the
Speaker 2: point that I don't think things were aokay when he
Speaker 2: was brought into this world. The first three years of
Speaker 2: his life, Bundy lived in a neighborhood of Philadelphia with
Speaker 2: his grandparents. The grandparents that maybe even supposedly was part
Speaker 2: of the incest, which if that's the case, take that
Speaker 2: for what it is. For whatever reason, because maybe it
Speaker 2: was of the time, the couple raised them as their
Speaker 2: own son to avoid social stigma. There was a company
Speaker 2: by childbirth outside of wedlock. Family's friends and even young
Speaker 2: Bundy were told that his grandparents were his biological mother
Speaker 2: and father, and that his actual mother was his older sister.
Speaker 2: So biographer and true crime writer and Rule who actually
Speaker 2: knew Ted Bundy personally wrote that he didn't find out
Speaker 2: about his true parentage until the year nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 2: when he located his original birth record in Vermont. Bundy
Speaker 2: expressed a lifelong resentment after that towards his mother for
Speaker 2: never telling him about his real father and for leaving
Speaker 2: him to discover the truth about his genealogy on his own.
Speaker 2: I think we're kinding to see maybe at some point,
Speaker 2: and again I'm not a professional, we start to see
Speaker 2: his resentment towards females a little early on in his life.
Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty, his mother changed her surname and, at
Speaker 2: the urge of multiple family members, left Philadelphia with her
Speaker 2: son to live with her cousin in Tacoma, Washington. In
Speaker 2: the next year, she would go on to marry a
Speaker 2: man I'll just call him Johnny, but I guess last
Speaker 2: name is Bundy. That's where he got it. He went
Speaker 2: on to actually, within right away of their marriage, adopt Bundy,
Speaker 2: and the couple welcomed four more additional children into the home.
Speaker 2: According to his adopted father, he tried desperately to include
Speaker 2: Bundy into camping trips and other family activities, but Bundy
Speaker 2: remained distant from him. He would later complain to a
Speaker 2: girlfriend that Johnny was quote not his real father and
Speaker 2: was quote wasn't very bright and didn't make much money.
Speaker 1: So we start to.
Speaker 2: See again him putting inphasis and importance on outward appearance. So,
Speaker 2: of course, as we see in a lot of children
Speaker 2: that maybe grow on to be psychopaths, we do start
Speaker 2: to see disturbing behavior. A childhood neighbor in Tacoma recalled
Speaker 2: that Bundy was a mean spirited kid who liked to
Speaker 2: inflict pain and suffering and fear. According to this girl's report,
Speaker 2: he once engaged an animal cruelty by hanging a straight
Speaker 2: cat from his backyard clothesline and setting it on fire
Speaker 2: with lighter fluid.
Speaker 1: Just sick cats. I will say, I think that's.
Speaker 2: That is one of the indicators of yeah, is inflicting cruelty.
Speaker 1: Cruelty Damn Yeah.
Speaker 2: She also claimed that Bundy would take younger children from
Speaker 2: the neighborhood into the woods, force them to strip, and
Speaker 2: then proceed to terrorize them. He then, in his early adolescence,
Speaker 2: became known as a local peeping tom. Again things that
Speaker 2: I would consider to be red flags and warning signs
Speaker 2: that maybe we needed to get some help.
Speaker 1: In August.
Speaker 2: Of nineteen sixty eight, Bundy attended the Republican National Convention
Speaker 2: in Miami, and shortly afterwards he met a girl name.
Speaker 1: So John Ley Gacy was a Democrat, he was a Republican. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's on both sides of the aisle.
Speaker 2: You're telling me that people in politics are narcissistic psychopaths.
Speaker 1: Ben, that's not I think I have a quote about
Speaker 1: that in My and Mine in your story. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So during this time he meets a girl by the
Speaker 2: last move of Edwards, and he would tell later, I
Speaker 2: think in one of the books written about him, that
Speaker 2: this was the one girl he actually ever had feelings
Speaker 2: and like truly love the only person in his life. However,
Speaker 2: their long term relationship at some point ends, and this.
Speaker 1: Kind of becomes.
Speaker 2: The pinpoint in Ted Bundy's life that things start to.
Speaker 1: Really fall apart.
Speaker 2: Devastated by the breakup, Bundy travels around the country and
Speaker 2: at the time frequently visits New York City, where he
Speaker 2: was drawn to pornography. He actually spoke quite a bit
Speaker 2: about the use of pornography in one of the interviews
Speaker 2: that he did. One thing I actually didn't know about
Speaker 2: New York City at the time was Times Square was
Speaker 2: actually like an adult only sort of like Mecca with
Speaker 2: peak shows and Triple X theaters and all of It's
Speaker 2: crazy a someone who's been New York multiple times and
Speaker 2: while Times Square is not like this amazing polish like Metropolis.
Speaker 1: I think there's a target there.
Speaker 2: Except there's a target and an old navy and a
Speaker 2: really good pizza place, the best pizza you can ever find, Saborrows.
Speaker 1: You're thinking to Michael Scott at the office, that was
Speaker 1: a good one man, Thank you. That was best pizza
Speaker 1: in New York.
Speaker 2: But I watched this documentary and because I didn't know
Speaker 2: this that during this time, Times Square was like the
Speaker 2: CDCD part of Like and it was all Triple X stuff.
Speaker 2: So Ted Bundy became a regular during this and he
Speaker 2: immersed himself.
Speaker 1: How come x x X became you know what?
Speaker 2: That is a podcast for a different day. I will
Speaker 2: send that touch.
Speaker 1: The three x's and said, this has to do with
Speaker 1: bad things.
Speaker 2: I don't know because I think at one point the
Speaker 2: triple X remember like an old cartoons. I think that
Speaker 2: was like on the liquor bottles. It was like XXX
Speaker 2: was well, now we have do is that two x's though?
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So I'm just saying I don't know who
Speaker 1: stole that. That's a Google search that I don't feel like.
Speaker 1: I'm not searching that. I refuse.
Speaker 2: So unfortunately, and he does actually a lot of interviews
Speaker 2: about this. He began to immerse himself in the world
Speaker 2: of extremely violent pornography.
Speaker 1: Including he was doing interviews, so it sounds like he
Speaker 1: liked to listen to himself.
Speaker 2: Him and both John Wayne Gacy talked about themselves a
Speaker 2: lot and violent literature with the undertones and themes of
Speaker 2: pornography as well. It was also at this time, while
Speaker 2: he was indulging in these things and angry about his breakup,
Speaker 2: that he discovered the truth about his mother. So again
Speaker 2: we start to see everything piling on. In the fall
Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty nine, he meets a girl named Elizabeth
Speaker 2: and her young daughter. Their tumultuous relationship would actually continue
Speaker 2: well past his incarceration in Utah in nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2: There's an entire documentary on this. It's a very complicated thing,
Speaker 2: this relationship with Elizabeth, I'm not going into that.
Speaker 1: Are you seeing a relationship with a die of allcle mind?
Speaker 2: And by mid nineteen seventy Bundy is focused and a
Speaker 2: goal oriented. Based on this relationship, he re enrolls at
Speaker 2: you W as a psychology major. He becomes an honor
Speaker 2: student and was well regarded by his professors. He takes
Speaker 2: a job at Seattle's suicide crisis hotline. Again we see
Speaker 2: this man for intending to be what everyone thinks he
Speaker 2: wants to be. To put your feelings to the side
Speaker 2: about any red flags. After graduating, he joined Governor Daniel
Speaker 2: Jay's re election campaign and was actually appointed to Seattle
Speaker 2: Crime Prevention Advisory Committee. What that's It's just crazy to
Speaker 2: me that Ted Bundy was on an anti crime committee.
Speaker 1: I think that's what we call him oxymoron.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's actually no consensus as to when and
Speaker 2: where Ted Bundy actually started taking the lives of women.
Speaker 2: He's told multiple different stories to multiple different people because
Speaker 2: he is an a whole psychopath, guys, and again, a
Speaker 2: lot of the stuff that I'm telling you about his
Speaker 2: life is from him. So take it with a grain
Speaker 2: of salt, because he probably lied about just about everything,
Speaker 2: and he refused up until the very end to divulge
Speaker 2: the specifics of his earliest crimes, and even like the
Speaker 2: days proceeding right up into his execution. So we do
Speaker 2: know that in January of nineteen seventy four, Bundy would
Speaker 2: kick off a murder spree through the Western United States,
Speaker 2: including Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Utah and Colorado. He'd be
Speaker 2: found guilty of kidnapping and assaulting in June, where again
Speaker 2: he was sentenced to fifteen years in prison. However, Bundy
Speaker 2: was a slippery little sucker, and the other thing he
Speaker 2: loved to do outside of murder and just being a crew.
Speaker 1: Was escape.
Speaker 2: He had multiple successful escapes, and in nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 2: Bundy piled books and files into his bed, cover them
Speaker 2: up with a blanket, and climbed into the crawl space.
Speaker 2: He breaks through the ceiling into an apartment of the
Speaker 2: chief jailer, who was out for the evening with his wife,
Speaker 2: changed in the street clothes from the jailer's closet, and
Speaker 2: walks out.
Speaker 1: The front door.
Speaker 2: The skeleton crew did not discover his escape until noon
Speaker 2: on December thirty first, because a lot of people were
Speaker 2: gone for the Christmas holidays. By then, Bundy was already
Speaker 2: in Chicago, And this is what's said is that he
Speaker 2: was at one point in prison.
Speaker 1: He escapes.
Speaker 2: At this point, he takes a train to Florida and
Speaker 2: in January of nineteen seventy eight, living in tallyhousee Florida,
Speaker 2: he promises himself he's going to be on the straight
Speaker 2: and narrow.
Speaker 1: From this point, attempts to get a job. Did he
Speaker 1: escape from murder or just out kidnapping an assault?
Speaker 2: By this point, he tells himself he's going to get
Speaker 2: his life together and tries to start finding work. He
Speaker 2: gets employment offered at a construction place, but within a
Speaker 2: few days is unable to prove his identification, so he
Speaker 2: is let go firm work. And he blames the fact
Speaker 2: that he couldn't find real work because he was on
Speaker 2: the lamb as to why he was forced into shoplifting
Speaker 2: and stealing money and credit cards for women's purses that
Speaker 2: started him back into his life of crime. It wasn't
Speaker 2: his fault, it was everyone else's fault. And so January fifteenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, so literally like weeks after moving. At
Speaker 2: one week after his arrival in Tallahassee, that he attempted
Speaker 2: to get a job and couldn't possibly work, he would
Speaker 2: start to murder people. He would enter this the sorority house.
Speaker 2: This is terrible, you guys, So multiple trigger warnings throughout
Speaker 2: this whole episode, obviously, but he would enter a sorority
Speaker 2: house through the rear door, where a faulty lock gave way.
Speaker 2: That night, he would brutally attack and murder three women
Speaker 2: within the home, leaving a fourth one for dead. Karen Chandler,
Speaker 2: aged twenty one, survived the attack only when she claimed
Speaker 2: that in headlights from either a neighbor pulling in or
Speaker 2: out spooked Ted Bunny and he left the house. So
Speaker 2: he went in and brutally attacked four women within the home,
Speaker 2: killing three of them.
Speaker 1: February eighth, so less than like or just over.
Speaker 2: Less than a month later, he would take the life
Speaker 2: of Kimberly Leech, who was only twelve years old at
Speaker 2: the time. February fifteenth, Ted Bundy's pulled over for driving
Speaker 2: in a stolen car and is arrested. In the stolen vehicle,
Speaker 2: they find three sets of IDs belonging to females who
Speaker 2: attended FSU students at FSU as students, and twenty one
Speaker 2: different stolen credit cards, and of course of all things
Speaker 2: are stolen TV set. In the end, Ted Bundy would
Speaker 2: be given two death sentences issued July nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 2: In January nineteen seventy eight m and then again yeah,
Speaker 2: the death sentence was for the twelve year old girl
Speaker 2: was the second one, so for all the girls at
Speaker 2: the Florida State and then the twelve year old girl
Speaker 2: Kimberly Leach. Bundy declined a last meal and was executed
Speaker 2: by the electric chair on Florida State Prison at seven
Speaker 2: sixteen a m. On January twenty fourth, nineteen eighty nine,
Speaker 2: at age forty two. His last words were addressed to
Speaker 2: his attorney, a man named Jim, and a Methodist minister
Speaker 2: named Fred.
Speaker 1: Jim and Fred.
Speaker 2: He said, I'd like to give you my love and
Speaker 2: send it to my Oh no, just Scar, excuse me,
Speaker 2: Jim and Fred, I'd like you to give my love
Speaker 2: my family and friends. While incarceration, Ted Bundy confessed to
Speaker 2: over confessed to thirty murders committed across seven states between
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four and nineteen seventy eight. So over four
Speaker 2: years he claims to have taken the life of thirty women.
Speaker 1: How many of these confirmed, Uh.
Speaker 2: Not all of them yet, because I will tell you
Speaker 2: authorities actually believe the victim count is much higher. They
Speaker 2: believe that the estimated range of the women that came
Speaker 2: into his path and their lives were ended could be
Speaker 2: up to one hundred victims. Even as of today. April
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty six, new DNA testing linked and UNSLF
Speaker 2: death of a young Utah teenage girl who walked to
Speaker 2: a convenience door on Halloween evening who went missing and
Speaker 2: was found dead later to to Ted Bundy. At the
Speaker 2: time of a girl named Ammy her killing, Bundy was
Speaker 2: living in Salt Lake and studying law at the University
Speaker 2: of Utah. So this is when we hear from one
Speaker 2: of the talking heads of the episode, a man named
Speaker 2: James Fox, who is a criminologist, and he says, quote,
Speaker 2: a lot of psychopaths don't just kill individuals. They're not
Speaker 2: content with that.
Speaker 1: A lot of.
Speaker 2: Psychopaths run countries. I see no fundamental difference between someone
Speaker 2: like Ted Bundy and someone like Adolf Hitler, who simply
Speaker 2: used very different techniques for a very similar end. Okay, sorry, guys,
Speaker 2: I've been talking for a while. This is again why
Speaker 2: I wanted to point why I wanted to break this
Speaker 2: up into two episodes.
Speaker 1: So with that to speak clear though, that's not what
Speaker 1: Robert Steck told us.
Speaker 2: He they talked about these two men, but they only
Speaker 2: literally just said what they were going, picked it up
Speaker 2: and what they did. Yeap, which is what I'm going
Speaker 2: to guess. Ben's going to just tell us about the next.
Speaker 1: Two day talked about what Unsul Mysteries told us.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, was that bad? I can rewrite my stuff.
Speaker 1: Nothing you ever do is bad. You are perfect in
Speaker 1: every way. Thank you.
Speaker 2: This is this was my vision for this episode when
Speaker 2: I saw that you have a vision, I have a vision.
Speaker 2: I don't okay, I have no visions.
Speaker 1: My vision was me telling you I'm just the person
Speaker 1: and I just do.
Speaker 2: And Ben is going to tell us about two men
Speaker 2: who were world leaders in psychopaths. They are just two
Speaker 2: of a drop in the bucket, just like John Wayne
Speaker 2: Gacy and Ted Bundy are.
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, let me get my notes. I think
Speaker 1: they get a sticker that says that hold on, let
Speaker 1: me get my notes. Okay, very good, sir, Are you ready? Okay?
Speaker 1: But did you learn something about these? Learned a lot? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll be honest. I thought Ted Bundy like went on
Speaker 1: a rampage. I didn't realize that after four that they
Speaker 1: knew about he caught and then it was like over
Speaker 1: decades we've linked him.
Speaker 2: Since yeah, because it was the fiction of the ones
Speaker 2: in Florida, but then they've found him throughout all of
Speaker 2: the Pacific, Northwest, Colorado and Utrabity.
Speaker 1: But I thought all these women, you thought this was
Speaker 1: all in a short amount of time, Like well, no,
Speaker 1: What I thought is that all these women had been killed.
Speaker 1: They kind of assumed and that they were hunting a
Speaker 1: serial killer, not knowing it was him for a long time.
Speaker 1: And then they finally found it was him, and they
Speaker 1: were surprised that it was him because he's this nice,
Speaker 1: good looking guy. I didn't know that. It was like, oh,
Speaker 1: he went there, he kills some people, and they caught
Speaker 1: him pretty quickly. And then they've come to find out
Speaker 1: later that he might be linked to all these other
Speaker 1: people and they just started linking things. Goes to show
Speaker 1: you my knowledge, I know, little read, little watched, little Okay,
Speaker 1: So here we go. Robert Stacks comes in. He's in
Speaker 1: this cool like library type of it's a pretty cool building,
Speaker 1: would you agree? Yeah? I was. I was into the building.
Speaker 1: It was like sophisticated, all right. And he says, the
Speaker 1: most destructive psychopaths are the ones that achieve absolute political power.
Speaker 1: And so then he goes on to tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about Adolf Hitler. He appeared non threatening, like
Speaker 1: they show home videos of Hitler, and you know, he
Speaker 1: seemed personally seemed non threatening. But then we come and
Speaker 1: find out what did Hitler do? All right? So theories
Speaker 1: are that Hitler lacked bonding in his growing up. In
Speaker 1: his early years. We get some quotes by some docs
Speaker 1: and some psychologists that psychopaths grow up feeling unloved, out
Speaker 1: of control, and when he grows up, he was an
Speaker 1: intense need for control of others. Right. Hitler's father was
Speaker 1: fifty two when he was born. That's old. I can't
Speaker 1: imagine having a kid at fifty two.
Speaker 2: That sounds h I don't I can't imagine either, But
Speaker 2: I think that's typical with men that marry younger women.
Speaker 1: So, but his father was supposedly physically and emotionally abusive. Okay,
Speaker 1: we get another quote. Psychopaths killed because that is the
Speaker 1: ultimate act of humiliation and dominance to show their total
Speaker 1: power and control over other human beings. And the crazy
Speaker 1: part about Hitler is that he had no empathy for
Speaker 1: his victims. And we all know what Hitler did. He
Speaker 1: killed six mind Jews and a lot of other people.
Speaker 2: And rose to power because he was very personable.
Speaker 1: He was. Yeah, he was a great public big loser.
Speaker 2: He failed out of like everything he'd ever achieved, which
Speaker 2: sucks that the one thing he was successful at was
Speaker 2: becoming a world leader. As every other venture he tried
Speaker 2: to take on, relationships, art school, everything failed at.
Speaker 1: But yet this was the one thing he was six
Speaker 1: a lot. I have found Hitler and Germany that lead
Speaker 1: up very interesting. I've watched a lot of stuff on
Speaker 1: watch a lot of documentaries that great one. There's some
Speaker 1: excuse me, there is a Hitler's Circle of Evil on Netflix.
Speaker 1: And then Netflix just came out with one about like
Speaker 1: the Nuremberg Trials, but it's not. It talks about the
Speaker 1: Nuremberg Trials, but it also like goes back and talks
Speaker 1: about the lead up to that stuff. It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1: I really liked it. So I've studied this a lot.
Speaker 1: I actually and I read part of that book from now.
Speaker 1: I can't think of his name, but he's the one
Speaker 1: that covered the Nuremberg trials. He's very famous. So he
Speaker 1: called The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It's
Speaker 1: a massive book. It's huge, but I've read parts of it.
Speaker 1: It's a very very good didn't hit the write a book? Yeah,
Speaker 1: mind comp I've not read that. I don't need to.
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people need to read it,
Speaker 1: but I do know. But I do think it's fascinating
Speaker 1: under And here's the thing is, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: I think it's important that it's still out there. And
Speaker 1: this is what because I think it's important that we
Speaker 1: It does help you dive into his psychology, his thoughts,
Speaker 1: and a lot of what he did and why he
Speaker 1: did it is there so you can kind of see, like, hey, man,
Speaker 1: like he literally said it out loud. He might not
Speaker 1: said he was going to kill millions of Jews like
Speaker 1: said it in those words, but he did. It's not
Speaker 1: hard to, you know, connect the dots.
Speaker 2: No, I mean when you see his pathway as a
Speaker 2: collective whole. First off, Unfortunately and sadly, it didn't take long.
Speaker 2: This wasn't over decades and decades and decades of small
Speaker 2: like speeches that it gave desensitizing people to an entire
Speaker 2: group of other humans. It happened very quickly. But it
Speaker 2: is fascinating. It's not the good world. It is an
Speaker 2: interesting psychology somewhere in our human because it's another first
Speaker 2: time that this happens, and I doubt it'll be the
Speaker 2: last time it happens that you are able to get
Speaker 2: an entire species of human beings, because that's we are.
Speaker 1: We are species to hate.
Speaker 2: Another group of human beings to the point where you
Speaker 2: devalue their life to be next to nothing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what I have found terrifying. I have
Speaker 1: found very fascinating. It's how like I read the book.
Speaker 1: I just finished it not too long ago, and now
Speaker 1: I can't think of Well.
Speaker 2: There's the museum. There's a museum of Jewish history down
Speaker 2: in Tucson. I would highly recommend anybody go so, but
Speaker 2: they have a very like it's not small, it's very
Speaker 2: impactful area of that it's about Jewish history in the
Speaker 2: city of Tucson, which is quite amazing and beautiful. But
Speaker 2: then the second part of it is about the Holocaust
Speaker 2: and the history of that, and they talk about the
Speaker 2: process of genocide and where it starts and how you
Speaker 2: there's like ten steps of it or something that we've
Speaker 2: broken down into a scientific formula of how you can
Speaker 2: do it. And it's terrifying to see it broken down
Speaker 2: into steps, because in the animal Kingdom you rarely see
Speaker 2: other than the need for food and for reduction, you
Speaker 2: don't see an entire group turn on each other simply
Speaker 2: out of a disagreeance on something like faith or political
Speaker 2: standing or orders or anything at all like along those lines.
Speaker 2: And yet it is a pattern and a repeat in
Speaker 2: history that we see over and over again, and Hitler
Speaker 2: was able to use that. I did see a very
Speaker 2: fascinating documentary on the History Channel though about Hitler, well,
Speaker 2: that he didn't actually really take his own life.
Speaker 1: No, I'm not getting into that finding Hitler. No, I
Speaker 1: refuse is that not. The worst thing is that was
Speaker 1: one of the worst things I ever watched. And I
Speaker 1: didn't even finish things. I didn't even fit. I think
Speaker 1: we only got like three episodes in and I realized.
Speaker 2: Because it's so factually incorrect, and nothing happens it is
Speaker 2: and it's people just and you guys, I am a
Speaker 2: big conspiracy theory person, and.
Speaker 1: This was it's just people making up, like taking the
Speaker 1: smallest thing and making the largest assumption. No, Hitler was
Speaker 1: a coward.
Speaker 2: He took his own life within the basement. He also
Speaker 2: had a micropene. He was also a vegan and was
Speaker 2: also a major drug addict. Like his life sucked, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was. He died in a bunker, like smelling his
Speaker 2: own farts in bo but escalated well because he was
Speaker 2: like everyone in that bunker was like on major uppers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean disgusting. Yeah. So, like I just read
Speaker 1: that book Ordinary Man is what it's called, and it
Speaker 1: is fascinating because it kind of dives into like this
Speaker 1: one police this one police force that committed a lot
Speaker 1: of atrocities and what kind of we don't understand why really,
Speaker 1: So I thought it was fascinating. Anyways, that's pretty much
Speaker 1: Elio on Hitler.
Speaker 2: The fact that Hitler's bunker today is a parking lot,
Speaker 2: now good.
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. I think I've said this before
Speaker 1: on this podcast.
Speaker 2: There is a part of me that thinks, dang from
Speaker 2: a point of preserving history and seeking understanding, that would
Speaker 2: make a fascinating museum. But the people in that town
Speaker 2: in Germany said that the concern was that people would
Speaker 2: use it as a shrine and as someone who was like,
Speaker 2: there's no freaking way that that would happen, as in
Speaker 2: my childhood thinking no one would ever idolize Hitler. There
Speaker 2: are still psychopaths to this day that do. They could
Speaker 2: not preserve it into some sort of learning place, a
Speaker 2: memorial or a memorial for the terrible things that happened,
Speaker 2: not for the man that did it.
Speaker 1: That it is now literally a.
Speaker 2: Gravel trashed parking lot, and I can't think of a
Speaker 2: better place for Hitler's final resting place to just be.
Speaker 1: It could be like a dump.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's probably better, But.
Speaker 1: I'm fine with that. I'm not complaining.
Speaker 2: I'm not complaining it into a partner, all right. The
Speaker 2: second person that they talked to us.
Speaker 1: About Saddam Hussein.
Speaker 2: Ben and I, this is actually a part of our childhood.
Speaker 2: We got to learn this history.
Speaker 1: So we dive into Saddam. He grew up poor, without
Speaker 1: running water and electricity. He was beaten by his stepfather.
Speaker 1: He didn't go to school, so you know, he had
Speaker 1: a rough upbringing, and then he went on to become
Speaker 1: part of politics. He manipulated his way into power. And
Speaker 1: they tell us have all these psychologists that they tell
Speaker 1: us he learned along the way that violence was the
Speaker 1: key to power. Okay, they just kind of throw that
Speaker 1: statement out there, Okay, I believe you, all right. During
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, Hussein tortured and killed his rivals,
Speaker 1: and he murdered thousands of people by nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1: Robert Stack says he had instilled so much fear in
Speaker 1: the people that he gained the presidency just by asking
Speaker 1: for it. I did look up, like I guess he
Speaker 1: was vice president at the time. So it's not like
Speaker 1: he was just this guy out committing terror and walked
Speaker 1: into the Capitol and said, hey, I want to be president.
Speaker 1: Not that that makes it any better, but all right,
Speaker 1: and so and then he gains power, he becomes president.
Speaker 1: Within days of him becoming president, he holds a meeting
Speaker 1: and says, anyone that disagrees with me, he might not
Speaker 1: have said it this way. He then just charges his
Speaker 1: political rivals with treason so that he can imprison him
Speaker 1: and kill him. So then we get told like, this guy, clearly,
Speaker 1: this guy, he's kind of a he's a doctor PhD guy.
Speaker 1: He is an expert on Saddam. He tells us of like, so,
Speaker 1: Saddam had invaded Iran in the eighties and it wasn't
Speaker 1: going well. So they had a meeting and he was saying, listen,
Speaker 1: what do we need to do. How can we turn
Speaker 1: this around? And they're like, no, thing's going great, you know,
Speaker 1: because everyone's afraid of him. And he's like, no, I
Speaker 1: want your like candid, truthful answers. So one of his
Speaker 1: ministers says, hey, listen, they want you to step down.
Speaker 1: Why don't you just step down for a little bit.
Speaker 1: Let us get this piece figured out, and then we'll
Speaker 1: just put you right back in power. After and he
Speaker 1: thanks him for his candidness and thank you for your
Speaker 1: honest and then arrests him. His wife comes to Saddama says,
Speaker 1: please please release my husband. He wasn't doing anything, he
Speaker 1: was just trying to do what's right. And he's like, fine,
Speaker 1: I will and he sends his body chumped up in
Speaker 1: a bunch of pieces in a black bag to his wife.
Speaker 1: So not a good person. Ah, then we find out
Speaker 1: what else did he do in our lifetime? And you
Speaker 1: know very well because your dad served in the war.
Speaker 1: He invaded Kuwait and started Desert Storm, So yep, Papa.
Speaker 2: How served in Desert Storm as a CB yep yep.
Speaker 1: And you know they obviously lost Desert Storm and non
Speaker 1: promise that he would terminate his chemical and nuclear program
Speaker 1: and the UN pretty much said no, he lied about that.
Speaker 1: So he's a liar and narcissist. Yeah, So this was
Speaker 1: my quote. This kind of goes into both of them.
Speaker 1: We get that PhD guy and he says, I'm sorry
Speaker 1: of If one were to strip world leaders and politicians
Speaker 1: of narcissistic characters, the ranks would be perishly thinned. We must,
Speaker 1: we must always be alert to that fusion between that
Speaker 1: personal drive for power unconstrained by conscience when it meets
Speaker 1: a wounded population, which you know at that time, like
Speaker 1: especially Germany, Right, they were a very wounded population.
Speaker 2: Germany was right off the cusp of World War One.
Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, they were in were not great, bad shape.
Speaker 1: Economics someone to blame when it meets a wounded population
Speaker 1: that has the repetitive, repetitively over history led to some
Speaker 1: of the most violent episodes that have scarred our planet.
Speaker 1: And that is still I thought that was a good day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought. That's why I wrote this Scorde down because
Speaker 1: even in nineteen ninety one when this episode aired, I
Speaker 1: still think that that statement is true. Like, obviously we
Speaker 1: all know anyone that doesn't think that pretty much, any
Speaker 1: politician is not a narcissist. Term limits, you guys, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry any politician on both sides. I know
Speaker 1: if you guys saw a political podcast, I'm not getting
Speaker 1: into politics.
Speaker 2: Limits because every person on every side at this moment,
Speaker 2: and maybe not everyone, I would say ninety eight percent
Speaker 2: of them are selfish, narcissistic, psychopathic, self serving, terrible human beings.
Speaker 1: They're not good people. That's what I'm saying. Anyone that
Speaker 1: thinks that politicians are not narcissists, crazy, do not put
Speaker 1: your faith in I'm not saying politicians are murderers. That's
Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. I'm not saying all politicians. Not allicians.
Speaker 1: Politicians are Adolf Hitler or Saddam Hussein.
Speaker 2: No, And in fact, I actually think it's very disrespectful
Speaker 2: to say that. Absolutely, and I know that's been a
Speaker 2: term thrown around again.
Speaker 1: We're not a political podcast.
Speaker 2: I think it's very disrespectful to the six million people
Speaker 2: that experienced what they did with Adolf Hitler to compare
Speaker 2: politicians to that. However, to not first off, just no
Speaker 2: politician is a savior. No politician is going to fix everything,
Speaker 2: and they're all untrustworthy. And we have to be aware
Speaker 2: as human beings no matter where we are at in
Speaker 2: the world, that whoever is trying to lead our country likely.
Speaker 1: Is someone who.
Speaker 2: Could be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder or psychopathic tendencies.
Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna say they're all I've got a
Speaker 1: diabolical mind. I'm just saying, like, guess, as politicians, not
Speaker 1: just all over the country, all over not the country,
Speaker 1: the world, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So I told Ben the other day I was going
Speaker 2: to run for State Senate, and my only campaign that
Speaker 2: I was going to run on was that everyone else
Speaker 2: is untrustworthy.
Speaker 1: All I have to say you got to come with receipts, though,
Speaker 1: you got to be able to I could find receipts, yeah,
Speaker 1: I believe you could. You just you got to come
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 2: But I think that could That's the one fact that
Speaker 2: no matter what side of the aisle you were on,
Speaker 2: everyone is over. I want everything flushed out. And again
Speaker 2: not political, but term limits I feel like is not
Speaker 2: going to fix everything, but it could.
Speaker 1: Help a little bit. Yeah. Anyways, uh So Robert Stack
Speaker 1: comes back and it's like he said, I thought. He
Speaker 1: kind of says, most, you know politicians, We see these people,
Speaker 1: they rise to power, they do all these terrible things,
Speaker 1: and he goes, many politicians die in the flames. They
Speaker 1: help at nite, especially like we saw that with Adolf Hitler. Right,
Speaker 1: beautiful quote by Roberts Dacks. But he says some did
Speaker 1: not like he quotes one or he names one. I
Speaker 1: actually didn't know who it was. I didn't look it up.
Speaker 1: He says, like he stepped down and lived his life
Speaker 1: in exile. I don't know who that was. I'd have
Speaker 1: to look it up. And that he goes, but Adolf
Speaker 1: Hitler died in the flames he ignited, and then he says,
Speaker 1: we'll have to see with Saddam Hussein, I.
Speaker 2: Will say, I like, this is the one thing, not
Speaker 2: the one thing. There's been a couple of updates that
Speaker 2: unsolved mysteries hasn't given us and Robert Stax once he says,
Speaker 2: we'll have to see what happens with Saddam who's sing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And for whatever reason, they have not updated.
Speaker 1: So Ben, what is our up up date? Are you
Speaker 1: ready for your update? I'm ready for this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein is dead. He has passed away. He has
Speaker 1: been taken out.
Speaker 2: He has been removed as many many of us probably
Speaker 2: know happening.
Speaker 1: But if you don't know, uh, the United States invaded
Speaker 1: Iraq and marched I think on March twentieth, two thousand
Speaker 1: and three. I remember that. I remember it specifically.
Speaker 2: I remember it very well because we were seniors in
Speaker 2: high was a senior in high school, and I think
Speaker 2: a lot of us were paying attention because there was
Speaker 2: talks about the draft coming back.
Speaker 1: Well, we were already in Afghanistan at the time, and
Speaker 1: I remember the clasp of nine to eleven. I remember
Speaker 1: very well because Bush not just like randomly invaded. He
Speaker 1: told him we're coming if you don't do this. He
Speaker 1: said they had weapons of mass destruction and we're coming
Speaker 1: if you don't and pretty much kind of gave him
Speaker 1: a timeline if you don't do it by this time,
Speaker 1: and then he did it came. I remember watching it
Speaker 1: on TV in the evening when we started. I do
Speaker 1: too shooting.
Speaker 2: And I remember because I my freshman year of high school.
Speaker 1: I the end of my freshman year.
Speaker 2: The summer after my freshman year, I had a boyfriend
Speaker 2: who had joined the military. He had graduated, and it
Speaker 2: was a very like baby summer fling that was like
Speaker 2: so cute and innocent because I wasn't even allowed to
Speaker 2: quote unquote go on dates with him. But he had
Speaker 2: joined the military his senior year and my freshman year,
Speaker 2: which had been in the year two thousand so before
Speaker 2: all of this happened. So I remember in three for
Speaker 2: the first time outside of like my father had obviously
Speaker 2: been in Desert Storm, my grandfather had also been in
Speaker 2: the military. This was someone close to my age who
Speaker 2: I knew, who wasn't just like an older person in
Speaker 2: my life was likely going to be going overseas to
Speaker 2: fight a war, and that being really close to home
Speaker 2: for me. And I also remember waiting to see these
Speaker 2: weapons of mass destruction found which dot dot dot they
Speaker 2: never were. But I do remember the hunt for Saddam,
Speaker 2: who sang.
Speaker 1: So yep so we invaded and we captured Saddam on
Speaker 1: December captured just like they say, ontured December thirteenth, two
Speaker 1: thousand and three. Actually got them pretty quickly. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: actually had double check that. That seems really cool. I
Speaker 1: double checked it. It was quick. Yeah, it was almost
Speaker 1: within a year we found.
Speaker 2: Because we evaded and invaded in March and then by
Speaker 2: the end of the year he was captured. Okay, because
Speaker 2: you actually have kind of a connection story to this,
Speaker 2: are you going to share that.
Speaker 1: Loosely? Can you share it? I will be very very
Speaker 1: loose Okay. I lived in Indiana several years after this
Speaker 1: and met a man, great guy. He showed me pictures
Speaker 1: of him pulling Saddam's Who's saying out of his tunnel. Yep,
Speaker 1: good man.
Speaker 2: So he would have likely been like Black Ops or
Speaker 2: Seal he was.
Speaker 1: He was Special Forces Forces, but also then a contractor. Oh.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he was a contractor at the time.
Speaker 2: After his military service went into private contractor work.
Speaker 1: I think he didn't get into a lot of his.
Speaker 2: I'm sure he didn't, but I love that he showed
Speaker 2: you those pictures though.
Speaker 1: It was pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially because you were what nineteen, twenty years old
Speaker 2: when you're seeing one at the time, and that's the
Speaker 2: thing you had just had that lived experience of US invading.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I was in high school at the time,
Speaker 1: so yeah. So yeah, it was cool. But he then
Speaker 1: was turned over to the people of Iraq and he
Speaker 1: was convicted in November of two thousand and six and
Speaker 1: then hanged nearly two.
Speaker 2: Thousand and six. It was three years later. I didn't
Speaker 2: realize it took that long. Well, I think I'm getting
Speaker 2: it mixed up with Osama bin Laden.
Speaker 1: We killed Osama, yeah, we shot him. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: and that was two eleven. Yeah, I think it was
Speaker 1: twenty and eleven. So it was during Obama's I was
Speaker 1: going to say that wasn't under Bush, that was under Obama. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he was convicted November fifth, two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: and then he was executed by hanging December thirtieth of
Speaker 1: two thousand and six. So they waited less than two
Speaker 1: months and they hanged him.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They do it quicker in other countries here. So he's dead.
Speaker 2: And I will say this, I don't know if this
Speaker 2: is true, but rumor has it that when you're hung,
Speaker 2: you pee yourself and I just think if you are
Speaker 2: a terrible world leader and that is how you go
Speaker 2: out in the most undignified way, you probably deserved what
Speaker 2: you got. Because he wasn't just a terrible person to
Speaker 2: the rest of the world, who was also a terrible
Speaker 2: people to his own people.
Speaker 1: Well he was. It is rumored that he killed like
Speaker 1: a quarter of a million people, up to three hundred
Speaker 1: thousand people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that we don't know that about video of
Speaker 2: him like calling people out in that forum, that group meeting.
Speaker 2: It was arrested time they're taken out and executed on
Speaker 2: the spot. There's something about watching that that you just
Speaker 2: feel sick to your stomach.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. He was a tyrant and a mass murderer.
Speaker 1: So he deserved to be hanged, and he deserves not
Speaker 1: to be anymore. So Okay, I'm glad his people got
Speaker 1: to do that. All right, guys.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to read a couple of our reviews
Speaker 2: that we've gotten lately to encourage you all to leave
Speaker 2: a review. Pick a fun name. You can leave it
Speaker 2: in Apple podcasts or comment on Spotify something fun with
Speaker 2: a five star review or a fun, uplifting positive comment,
Speaker 2: and I will read it here for everyone to hear.
Speaker 2: And then we're going to end this episode and part
Speaker 2: two of season four, episode twenty three of Unsolved Mysteries,
Speaker 2: Into the Diabolical Mind or whatever it's called, actually goes
Speaker 2: into a case of a female that does some pretty
Speaker 2: terrible things. We have an interview with a man who
Speaker 2: is likely diagnosed as a psychopath, as well as an
Speaker 2: actual Unsolved Mystery case. So make sure to come next
Speaker 2: week for episode two. And I am going to read
Speaker 2: you so this This review comes from someone named Cha.
Speaker 2: So the title of review reads, so good quote the
Speaker 2: show I did not know I was missing and needed.
Speaker 1: I love it so much. Thank you cha.
Speaker 2: The next episode the next review, I'm actually going to
Speaker 2: read it even though it's only a four star review
Speaker 2: and not a five star review, because I'm hoping that
Speaker 2: we can win this person back over. So the review
Speaker 2: comes from someone named quit legal w H I T
Speaker 2: T L E G oh it so wit legit wit legit.
Speaker 2: I love you, and I hope that you'll reconsider our review.
Speaker 2: So the podcast title or the review title says good
Speaker 2: and it is four out of five stars. Really good
Speaker 2: material with updates on old Unsolved Mysteries. Just need to come.
Speaker 2: Just need to cut out some of the ADHD chit
Speaker 2: chat that goes off the rails and they sometimes interrupt
Speaker 2: each other and go off on tangents. You are correct,
Speaker 2: we do do that, and I'm sorry, but that is
Speaker 2: just if you were sitting hanging out and talking with
Speaker 2: me and Ben, that is what would happen. But the
Speaker 2: stories presented are really interesting. You guys are doing a
Speaker 2: great job. Amazing idea for a podcast, good material. Just
Speaker 2: try to tell the story more and trim the fat
Speaker 2: sort of speak. I feel like we've trimmed some of
Speaker 2: the fats and.
Speaker 1: Calling us fat. Hopefully they're.
Speaker 2: To us listening to us and they haven't given up.
Speaker 2: So if that review, I am so sorry. We have
Speaker 2: actually try to cut some of the ADHD chit chat down,
Speaker 2: but there are some episodes that are better than the others.
Speaker 1: All right, last one.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for the forced I'm grateful for the four
Speaker 2: stars too, but I would love you even more. Drop
Speaker 2: us a five star. You don't even have to update
Speaker 2: your thing five stars. Send me a DM and I'll
Speaker 2: send you some stickers in the mail.
Speaker 1: All right. The title of the review.
Speaker 2: Says love it, and this is from don't sign up
Speaker 2: nine nine nine and all it reads of the body
Speaker 2: of the review is can't get enough.
Speaker 1: There you go.
Speaker 2: Okay, So if you guys haven't already, please leave us
Speaker 2: a five star reading a review wherever you listen to
Speaker 2: your podcast or comment in the comment section below on Spotify,
Speaker 2: and I will read it out loud.
Speaker 1: So we can all hear it. All right.
Speaker 2: For the people that don't like the chitty chat or silly,
Speaker 2: funny question time with Ben, now is your time to leave.
Speaker 2: And for the rest of us Ben instead of an
Speaker 2: actual question today, I wrote down a few Actually got
Speaker 2: this idea from one of my favorite podcasts, which is
Speaker 2: the history podcast The Old Timy Podcast with Norman Caruso
Speaker 2: and Kristen Pitts Caruso. They did this on one of
Speaker 2: their chitty chat times and I thought this was fun
Speaker 2: and I wanted to ask you the same questions. Do
Speaker 2: you know what the slang word chopped means?
Speaker 1: Chopped m M, it's a It's.
Speaker 2: Really a word that is being used now in slang, chopped.
Speaker 1: Do you know what it means? I can honestly say,
Speaker 1: you just what make a guess chopped up that that
Speaker 1: don't track that don't track. Sure, okay, am I right?
Speaker 1: And no, not even a little bit.
Speaker 2: So chop means quote being unattractive or undesirable can sometimes
Speaker 2: also refer to getting hung out to dry. So I
Speaker 2: got in a sentence for you quote, I'm having such
Speaker 2: a bad hair day.
Speaker 1: I'm so chopped. Well, I'm chopped, you're chopped. I am
Speaker 1: a chopped guy. All right, you're ready for your next one? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Caught in four K? What? M hm? Caught? Been caught
Speaker 1: in four K? I mean, I'm gonna guess like you've
Speaker 1: been caught in the act. All right, I'll give that
Speaker 1: to you. But I have never heard this.
Speaker 2: Okay, someone that's been caught in the act usually online
Speaker 2: with some sort of proof or quote. Having the receipts receipts, Okay.
Speaker 1: Receipts is also kind. I think I used that. I
Speaker 1: think I used receipts in this episode. Very good callback. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so good.
Speaker 2: If I'm going to run for political office, I have
Speaker 2: to have.
Speaker 1: I forgot where I brought that up.
Speaker 2: But all right, this one, I will be shocked if
Speaker 2: you know what this one is.
Speaker 1: Glazing glazing m hmmm. Uh, I'm going to guess you're
Speaker 1: like you're fluffing the story, like because glazing is like
Speaker 1: you're you're putting something over Like me. I think I'm
Speaker 1: a glazed donut because I love a donut, and glazing
Speaker 1: means you're you're not telling the whole truth or you're exaggerating.
Speaker 1: I'll give that one to you. Round them fluff, dude.
Speaker 1: I am so good at this. I've never heard this either.
Speaker 2: Hype somebody or something up.
Speaker 1: You're glazing. That's a pretty easy one to put together.
Speaker 1: I will actually tell you what I've never heard that.
Speaker 1: I did not.
Speaker 2: I could not figure out what they were talking about.
Speaker 2: So I'm the old person in this one. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: got it.
Speaker 1: Well that's because you weren't thinking of a glaze.
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking of a clays dot. You are correct,
Speaker 2: all right, left on red, left on red? Okay, So
Speaker 2: if you turn left on a red, because here's the thing,
Speaker 2: you're allowed to turn right on a red or red light.
Speaker 2: If you do left on a red, that means you're
Speaker 2: in the wrong. So in that world, so you you're wrong,
Speaker 2: or you you cut people off, you you did something wrong.
Speaker 1: Come on, so.
Speaker 2: Left on red in all fairness is l E F
Speaker 2: T on r E E D left on red, which
Speaker 2: means that you.
Speaker 1: Text somebody they saw it, you didn't, you got it.
Speaker 1: You have to give me if it come on you.
Speaker 1: I actually love that you went where you did.
Speaker 2: I did not even think about until I said that
Speaker 2: out loud, because in the English language left and read
Speaker 2: are spelled two different.
Speaker 1: Ways and have word how is left have spelled again.
Speaker 2: In this I guess L E F T. So you're
Speaker 2: still left on red. But but you're either burning left
Speaker 2: or whether you've just left somebody. Okay, yeah, left on red.
Speaker 1: It just means you didn't answer back.
Speaker 2: It means and they saw that you did it, and
Speaker 2: you were like, man, not worth my time to risk.
Speaker 1: This is why you don't put that you read text messages.
Speaker 2: Ben has his receipts, has turned his red seeds off.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing and here's the other thing.
Speaker 2: I also know that my husband I watch on his
Speaker 2: wrist that texts that buzzes.
Speaker 1: When I intentionally.
Speaker 2: There are multiple times that I've texted me and said,
Speaker 2: I know you know I'm texting you.
Speaker 1: I know that you can see this, Okay, but in
Speaker 1: all fairness, I work, you work in the middle of nowhere. Yes,
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of cellf service where I work.
Speaker 1: That is true, but I also turn that off because
Speaker 1: I intentionally do not text people back.
Speaker 2: I know you don't. You like to leave people on red.
Speaker 2: I do, which means you made the wrong You turned
Speaker 2: left on red when you weren't supposed to.
Speaker 1: I'm fine with that. In the wrong. I'm fine with that.
Speaker 1: All right, let's go.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's going to be the new slang. Left on
Speaker 2: red means you're in the wrong. I'm starting it, you're
Speaker 2: starting it. Okay, this one's pretty easy. I think you'll
Speaker 2: get this one. This will be the last one for today. Slaps,
Speaker 2: slaps h Do you want me to spell it for you?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 2: S l a ps slaps, I don't know.
Speaker 1: You insulted me? Oh, I mean slap? Make Will Smith
Speaker 1: move sort of thing? Yeah, Will Smith? Who was it?
Speaker 1: Chris Rock? Chris Rock?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Slaps I mean because in the medieval days, if you
Speaker 1: wanted to duel someone, you them.
Speaker 2: That is true with your glove. So it's a sign
Speaker 2: of aggression, an insult. Am I right, No, it's actually opposite.
Speaker 2: When something's really great. That new song slaps, that's the
Speaker 2: way you look in them wranglers slaps.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say this, those cheeks slap.
Speaker 2: No, you cannot say that. That's a very different term,
Speaker 2: Benjamin David. But yeah, okay, so.
Speaker 1: You got I mean you, how many did we do? One, two, three, four?
Speaker 1: We did five? And I got two out of the five? Right?
Speaker 2: You got caught in four K and glazing? Correct, you
Speaker 2: missed chopped left on red and slaps? All right, all right,
Speaker 2: okay guys, well.
Speaker 1: Those cheeks slapped, those cheek slap.
Speaker 2: Make sure to join us again here next week when
Speaker 2: Ben and I bring you the second half of a
Speaker 2: Diabolical Mind.
Speaker 1: Now are we still on this freaking Episode three of
Speaker 1: Console Mysteries.
Speaker 2: Bye,