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Speaker 1: Welcome to this edition of The High Strangers Factor. Copywriter

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on the Paranormal UK Radio Network. I'm your host Steve Ford,

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along with Annie Mercer and Susie Bastile. On The Highest

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Rangers Factor, we explore all aspects of the paranormal and

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the unexplained, with an emphasis on the underlying connections between UFOs,

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cryptids and all manner of psychic phenomena. Andy and Susie

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welcome back. We're hoping to get Oh, I get a

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guest here. Another guest. This is Rosy by the way,

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one of four kats some the cat dead. So hopefully

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guest co host Brandy will return. But we've had had

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some audio problems. Okay, so quickly, what's up? Susie. Tell

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us about your your website and where people can reach you.

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Speaker 2: The website is puckwagis dot blogspot dot com and my

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YouTube is a Puckwagy Whisper. My blog is currently the

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only place you can reach me except for Blue Sky,

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because I've gone into stealth mode to work on some

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top secret projects.

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Speaker 1: Ah, but we'll hear about the top secret projects at

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an opportune time.

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Speaker 2: You will be the second people to know.

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Speaker 1: Very good and Andy you are a publisher? Is that

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not true?

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Speaker 3: I am indeed, and it's been quite a day for

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me today. The next book I am publishing was delivered

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from the printers today, so it's been the entire day

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unpacking fourteen books of books and putting them on the story.

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Sheelf ready to launch it properly at the weekend, so

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it's going to be an interesting busy time in the

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next couple of months. It sounds out and where is

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it you live in the UK? I'm in the West Country,

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in Zummer Sectors. We'd call it fro around locals around

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here home, you know. I moved away from near London

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about two years ago to set up the publishing business,

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having been a psychotherapist about twenty years before. I've had

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enough of that now I want to take a break

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from it. So enjoying life in the countryside. It's quieter here,

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although unfortunately they're about to build some houses in the

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field behind us, which is a bit of a shame,

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so it could be a bit of a noisy summer unfortunately.

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Otherwise it's much better than what I used to.

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Speaker 1: Have to say. I always think that it sounds like

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one of those British murder mysteries where it's just a

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quiet little town and then all kinds of mayhem breaks loose.

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Speaker 3: You watch me, and some have a murders too many times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's true. Okay, well, let's uh, let's let's

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introduce our guest. Richard had Them has a BA in

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film production for the University of Southern California's School of

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Cinema and Television. He has written screenplays including Under Siege, two,

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Dark Territory, and The Mothman Prophecies. He co created the

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ABC television series Miracles and The Gates. He executive produced

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the Sci Fi Channel mini series event The Lost Room.

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He has written and produced episodes of Supernatural, Grim, The

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Dead Zone, which is of East End, Once Upon a

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Time in Wonderland, Damian Dead, of Summer, Second Chance, and

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No Tomorrow. He's also the creator and host of the

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hit audio Boom podcast, Richard Adam's paranormal Bookshelf. Richard HadAM

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lives in Pasadena, California with his family. Richard, Welcome to

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the heighst Anxious Factor. Great to have you here.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Very good boy. We're to start here. I've had million

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questions but I guess I wonder, how is it that

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you you found your way or stumbled your way or

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or or or pushed your way into being a producer

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and screenwriter.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's yes, pushed my way pretty much. That's how

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you do it. I wanted to. I was interested in

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television writing from the time I was in high school.

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I'm fifty eight. So when I was in high school,

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there was this new TV show called The A Team.

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Oh yes, and and it was it was at a

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time in I was a junior in high school, and

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it was sort of a time in my life when

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I was beginning to realize, oh, people write television, you know.

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And uh And I recognized the name of the guy,

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Stephen J. Cannell, because he also wrote and produced one

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of my favorite shows, The Rockford Files. Oh yes. And

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then and I began to put this together, like, oh,

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so he did The rock for Files and The Greatest

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American Hero and now he's doing The A Team. And

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I was like, this is the greatest thing ever because

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it was like it was like action stuff, but it

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was funny, because a lot of action stuff at that

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time wasn't funny. It was pretty melodramatic and you know,

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when you're James Garner and you're able to be funny

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when you're scared, you know, and guys are trying to

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kill you, and you're still cool. I mean, that's what

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more can you be to a sixteen year old boy

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that was like, oh, I would tell my I would

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go to my parents and I'm like, I'm either going

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to be an actor or a TV writer or a

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private detective. Those were top three and I A two

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out of three. Ain't bad, you know, And I've still

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got time if I really want to hang out a

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shingle and start taking on cases.

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Speaker 1: And you know, poor Jim Rockfrey, every time he had

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a knock on his door of it is his trailer,

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I'm saying, don't open the door because I thought this

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a couple of thugs there to beat the crap out

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of them.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, I know. It's it's like, it is

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funny to look back at it and go, Wow, you

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lived in a trailer and you had guys shooting at

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you like that is scary. So by the way, now,

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I don't know if you guys have ever been to

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Los Angeles, but where his trailer was is a place

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that is called Paradise Cove, okay, and you can go there.

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And the restaurant that he would go to that was

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right across the parking lot front right is still there.

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It's different now, it's a little bit you know, higher end,

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and it's been re landscape. But you can go there

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and as I often do, and sort of go okay.

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So his trailer was pretty much like right here. And

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then in that one episode when he got was bringing

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in his groceries and he got punched, probably happened right

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around here. It's the greatest.

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Speaker 1: And also if you had any of the shots of

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it where you're kind of looking back at it, there

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were no power cables going in for power for lights

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or for phone or thing like that.

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Speaker 4: Hey yeah, I never thought of that. You're right, You're right.

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And it's so funny because I mean, I'm sure you

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guys know, but it's one of those things where the

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interior of the trailer was in you know, Burbank run

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a studio lot, and then the outside was in Malibu.

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So they'd be in Malibu and he'd walk into the

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trailer and then they'd cut it together with scenes they

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shot the next day or four days later.

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Speaker 1: And I was the weasel it. But always when they

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would open the door, I'd look back there to see

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the painted background or the photograph of the background, you know.

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But yeah, so it's like one part of my brain

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is analyzing it, like, okay, it's it's in the studio

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or whatever, but the other part of my brain is saying,

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it's a TV show. Just enjoy the damn thing, you know.

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Speaker 4: Well, And to me it was that was the golden

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age of television because they didn't spend here's the difference

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as far as I can tell, because I didn't work

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in television in the seventies or the eighties, but in

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the I guess early two thousands is when I got

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into it. And by then they were lighting every television

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show like a movie. And it took an incredibly long time,

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and I'm like, how did they even make these Rockford

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Files episodes? And it's like, oh, that's right, they didn't

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light anything. They just when I say they didn't light it,

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they just they lit it a lot. They're just like,

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throw light on it and let the actors do their thing.

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And in a way, that was better. Just make a

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show that's about the script and the acting and don't

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worry so much that every frame has to be you know,

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a Martin squasesey movie. Just look in the Rockford Files

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dialogue and acting that did just fine. And they spent

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their time on car chases.

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Speaker 1: That's right, great, great car chases. And the guy that

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played his father, Rocky, his name Noah Berrie, Noah Barry.

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What a perfect casting job. I mean, you believed that

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he was Jim Rockbridge's father totally.

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Speaker 4: And he what a lovable actor, I mean exactly, I

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just And what's funny is if you watch early on,

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I think in the in the first episode or two,

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it's a different.

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Speaker 1: Actor, right right, The pilot was a different guy.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that weird? You're like, who's that guy? Get out

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of here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not Rockford's dad? For crying out?

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Speaker 4: Who are you? I don't know who you are? Get andy?

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Speaker 1: Did you ever see The Rockford Files over there?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I remember. I was younger. My parents used

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to watch it, so yes, I definitely remember that.

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Speaker 4: What about you're a mere child? You know, grown up's

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my age.

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Speaker 1: Susan, What about you re runs Rockford Files.

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Speaker 2: I've never heard of it.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, no, this is great. No, Susie,

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this is great because you're the only one here who

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has all of the rock profiles ahead of you. Yes,

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I am telling you. I don't know if you're familiar

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with who James Garner is, but I can all put

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in the chat a couple of episodes that you can

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watch and you will go, oh, this is a new

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thing that I can go watch. You'll love it.

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Speaker 2: I've disappointed people before, but I'll give it a shot

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for you.

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Speaker 3: Funny enough, I'm watching a wife and I watching the

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TV series Castle. Yes, and Steve's that's in that is

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playing cards with a few episodes.

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Speaker 4: Yes, how great is that? Like joke?

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Speaker 3: It's a New York based detective comedy kind of thing.

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Girls as a writer and he's he's with Kate Becket's

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the detective and they're solving sort of crimes together and

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solving her the murder of a mother. Ultimately, it's very

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good show. But I've seen it a few times. But

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in some of the early episodes, my brain's dying on me.

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Steve Cavell's.

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Speaker 4: Stephen J. Cannell.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he's playing cards with Riot and James Pattison's there

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as well.

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Speaker 4: In another chat, they sort of played cards together. It's

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a whole deal. It's it's an inside joke, the idea

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that Castle is a novelist of mysteries, and then he's

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and so he plays poker with these other guys who actually,

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in real life not only write mysteries but are big

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hams and dying again. I mean Cannell was dying to

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get on camera. I mean even at the end of

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his shows he was pulling the waving through the air

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and turning into the logo and yeah, he loved doing that.

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And I didn't know he was even a part of

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that until long after that show. I'm like, wait, what,

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I had no idea because I wasn't a show I

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caught when it was on. But that, in a way,

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that's an old fashioned kind of show. It's sort of

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kind of like Remington Steel or Lighting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know, the old sort.

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Speaker 4: Of male female romantic comedy, screwball comedy. But there's a

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crime at the center. Just I mean, is there anything

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more entertaining.

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Speaker 1: Richard Andy, with all his other irons in the fire,

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is actually writing a murder mystery?

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Speaker 3: Yes, happy for about ten years now.

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Speaker 1: It's like my paranormal book, you know, another another decade

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or so.

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Speaker 3: Well, in the space of starting that, I've actually written

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six books to do something to do with the occult

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and witchcraft, and they've been written and completed. For this

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novel I've been working on for years. I started off

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being set in America. I have to say that was

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the idea. It was set in New York. I've been

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quite a few times. Most people read it and yeah,

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that's good. But one person who was a writer, who

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Steve gave it to, said, now you can tell you're English,

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you tell you're British Americas. Okay, so you're actually rewriting it,

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said it in London instead. It's working. Actually it's a

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slow progress, but it's working. We were all the backstories

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of the characters, which is annoying.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's funny because one of the biggest

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writers today is Lee Child. Oh yeah, British writing in

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the American idiom. You know. I mean, I don't know.

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I bet, I bet with a couple of different you

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know words, you know, just swap out bonnet for something.

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Speaker 3: I think it was just the tone. I think your

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friend sis, it was the tone. It was a certain

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style to it. The words are correct, but the style

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didn't seem to quite work.

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Speaker 1: As long as you're not calling flashlights a torch.

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Speaker 3: I think, and the sidewalks not pavements and trowsers. Yet

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we've been for that before. No no prams, by the way,

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no prams.

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Speaker 4: I'm fascinating, you know, Andy, Also, I mean nothing. Look,

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you know, as as an American, Oh wait, so or

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Susie and Steve Frankly, nothing would be more charming than

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a book about the Englishman in New York Franklin, you know,

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I mean, we'd read that all day and night. You write,

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you know, that's that's something you might want to It's

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like you get the best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: So I have to ask, so, how did you get

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around to where they are actually paying you? Richard?

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Speaker 4: Whoa? It took a long time. Here's the thing, though,

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I'm a maniac. So I started when I was in

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high school. When I was a junior in high school,

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I wrote my first television script and it was an

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episode of The A Team, and I just sort of

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felt like, well, I know this show. I love this show,

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and if I can just spend more time in that

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world by writing a script, then I'm going to do it.

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But I was also like I want to I want

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to sell something. I want to start my career. I'm

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enough of this school bullshit. I'm not going to be

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one of these dudes. I'm whatever whatever life is going

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to hand me. I will never be the dude who

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graduates college and is like, huh, I wonder what I'm

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going to do. I'm like, I know what I want

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to do. This is what I want to do, and

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I'm going to do it, and if I sell it,

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I'll drop out of high school. I'll start my TV

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writing career right away. Well that didn't happen. But I

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wrote A I wrote three A Team scripts. I wrote

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a Hardcastle and McCormick. I wrote a Riptide, I wrote

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Steel Equalizer, I wrote Cheers, Family Ties, Bueheart. I was

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writing scripts, writing scripts, writing scripts, And the whole thing

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was can I beat the clock? Can I sell something

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before college graduation? So I graduated high school, went to

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USC eventually went to USA Film School. But the whole

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time I'm like, if I can just get out of

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this quick and move into my career in TV writing,

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And of course graduated college and nothing, I mean, I

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was worse than nothing. I college destroyed every bit of

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confidence I had in anything usc film school, I do

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not recommend.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good to know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, And it was not until after college graduation,

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after you know, my best friend Matt Reeves, who is

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now a hugely successful director and writer, we sat down

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to write a movie, and about five years or so

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after we graduated college, we sold it. And that was

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Dark Territory, which became Under Siege two. Dark Territory.

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Speaker 1: That was a great movie.

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Speaker 4: It was.

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Speaker 1: It was a worthy sequel. I mean, everybody loves the

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first one, right, Actually it was excellent.

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Speaker 4: Well, what's funny about it was when we were writing it, like,

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we were totally influenced by Diehard. And by the way,

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in film school they tell you, don't do this, don't

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just take some big don't try to write Star Wars again.

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No one wants that, you know, write your own personal

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story about you know, the summers you spent on your

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grandfather's far hold.

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Speaker 1: On just a second, Richard, do you know what under

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stage was? Susie with Steven singall big action flick on

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a ship. Now, okay, well this was you wrote a

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great screenplay for a movie. You have no idea what

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it was.

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Speaker 3: I've seen it.

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Speaker 4: It's starring then in future Fascist Steven Sigaal, yeah, and

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it was. But what I was going to say was

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the joke is that, you know, Matt and I loved

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die Hard so much, and we were like, what if

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we could write a movie like that? And then we're like, well,

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let's do it. Let's just write die Hard on a train.

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Let's write die Hard at one hundred miles an hour.

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That'll be great. So you know, I mean, we're twenty three.

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It's like, let's do it. So that's what we wrote.

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But of course when it's me and Matt, and especially Matt,

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it's like we're not just on a lark. We're building

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a machine, like this is going to be. This screenplay

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that we write is going to be structured as good,

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if not better than die Hard. We're gonna have planting,

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we're gonna have payoff, we're gonna have these you know,

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intricately designed action sequences that work like Rube Goldberg's Action

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as Contraption was our buzzword, and we just wrote the

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living hell out of this thing, and all along we

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kept saying, God to be so good. If they could

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make this into die Hard too, that would be the great,

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you know, or get Harrison Ford. You know, it's like

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all we knew is that. What we didn't want it

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to be was like a Schwarzenegger movie, because we like Schwartzenegger.

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But we're like, those movies are different. Those movies are

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always like, you know, twenty terrorists who picked the wrong trained.

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We're like, no, it's got to be like Diehard. It's

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got to be like a guy he's in the wrong

340
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place at the wrong time. He's hanging on by his

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fingernails for two and a half hours and that's the

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movie and just barely. And we love that because that's great.

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So that's what we wrote. And then it's sold to

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Warner Brothers and they're like, we're making under Siege too.

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We're like, you know that was was that Catherine?

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Speaker 1: A young Catherine?

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay, a young Morris chestnut like young Eric Bogosian.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and that the I'm a huge film soundtrack freak.

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Basil Podurus did the the the soundtrack and it, you know,

350
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he is so man To score him for the soundtrack

351
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was amazing.

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Speaker 4: You're so right, Steve, I'm so glad you said that.

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What a like, what a giant talent to be working

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on that movie, which was our feeling about a lot

355
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of people. We were very lucky we did. We didn't

356
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at the time. It was we were a little ambivalent.

357
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It's like, oh god, you know, our first our first

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step into the professional world and it's a Stevenson gall movie.

359
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You know, I don't know. It's like, is this going

360
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to ruin our careers? But it's so funny because in

361
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the years that have passed, it has I don't know.

362
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It's like I'll I would tell people like I'll go

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somewhere and I'll be in a cab or something and

364
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and you know, or anywhere somebody. So what do you do?

365
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You know, oh, I write movie? What'd you write? I'm

366
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underseeged too. I love that movie? And then the next

367
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sentence universal They always say me and my dad loved

368
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that movie. We always watch it and I'm like wow,

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And after the fifth or sixth time, I'm like, this

370
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is funny. This is like some weird Father's Day bonding

371
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ritual of man her somebody's to watch as Steven's a

372
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gone movie. But everyone has really like sweet memories of

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this movie. And I'm like, you know what, that's awesome.

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I'm glad. I'm glad it's turned into something that isn't like, oh,

375
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that piece of sh it is okay, it's like, you

376
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know what, it's a goofy movie. But there's but it's

377
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cool and I'm address I thank god, thank god people

378
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are generous. That's very good.

379
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Speaker 3: Well, I think she knows what she's watched you at

380
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the weekend.

381
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Speaker 4: Yeah, Susie's got a big weekend coming up.

382
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Speaker 2: I'm taking notes over here.

383
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's a Benji Rockford and checking out under

384
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Siege too. The first one, Susie, it's not that good.

385
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Speaker 2: I was just gonna ask if I would be able

386
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to follow along if I don't see the first one.

387
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Speaker 4: Here's the thing, even if you do see the first one,

388
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you won't be able to follow along.

389
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Speaker 2: Well, now I'm intrigues.

390
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,279
Speaker 1: It was some of the same people that produced Under Siege.

391
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I think we're involved with the Fugitive film. I'm not

392
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,920
sure if the some of the people behind it, certainly

393
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some of the actors that were in it were I'm

394
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,279
talking about the one with Harrison Ford.

395
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Speaker 4: I'm trying. I'm just I'm now, I'm I'm casting back

396
00:22:19,599 --> 00:22:22,400
to find where the links are who what are you

397
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:22,839
thinking of?

398
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Speaker 1: I'm thinking I thought that, uh maybe was it the

399
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,400
director or or or producer or whatever that would involved

400
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,039
in under Siege and yes, the Fugitive.

401
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, yes, not under Siege too, but I mean

402
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,279
the first one. Yeah, Andrew Davis directed Under Siege and

403
00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:43,720
then went on to direct The Fugitive, which The Fugitive

404
00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:47,039
is a wonderful movie. I've gone back to that one

405
00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:51,400
a few times, and that's you know, I mean, these

406
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:57,599
are these are weirdly character driven movies, right, And I

407
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,519
don't know if there's a ton of examples, you know,

408
00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:05,920
in the last twenty years of like that action movie

409
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,240
was great because of the conception of the main character

410
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,960
and placing them. I mean, I don't know. Maybe I'm

411
00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:13,519
overlooking some no, I take that.

412
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Speaker 1: I think that's right. And I and as a huge

413
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fan of the original TV series still my favorite TV

414
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,039
series of all time with David Jansen, I was, you know,

415
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,359
I was kind of wondering, what are they going to

416
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,680
do to my TV show making this movie, you know,

417
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because sometimes movies, I mean you can look at certain

418
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,680
TV series and they made the movie and it's like, Okay,

419
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,960
we need to Bury that movie in a Shallow Grave.

420
00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:40,039
But with The Fugitive, it was it paid tribute to

421
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,599
the series. It was there were a lot of minor

422
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,400
details they brought forward and paid tribute to. And the

423
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,559
relationship between Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones and all

424
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:53,319
the supporting cast was phenomenal.

425
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Speaker 4: So you you signed off, you were like, yes.

426
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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. I think it's I think it's

427
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the of any that I've seen. It's the best translation

428
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,200
from TV show into film that's ever been done. Now,

429
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,599
I haven't seen everything.

430
00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:11,839
Speaker 4: But well, wasn't the wasn't the concept of the television

431
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:15,359
show even based on Lame miserab Yes?

432
00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: Well, the uh uh Roy Huggins his original genesis was

433
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:24,640
he wanted to have a somebody moving from town to

434
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,160
town in a contemporary setting, but he didn't want to

435
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,000
drift her. He wanted something to drive him. Why has

436
00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:32,960
he moved from town to town? And he came up

437
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,240
with the idea that he's falsely convicted of a crime

438
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,519
and has to stay ahead of the law and to

439
00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,119
find this guy that really murdered his wife. So uh,

440
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:47,119
but then the screen the teleplay writer, uh god, Leonard Stansmore,

441
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,119
Maybe I can't remember his name, but he saw that

442
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,960
the relationship between Lei Muziob and this this situation. So

443
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,839
Gerard was named after Javert. You know that was not

444
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,799
a coincident. So yes, he saw the you know, here's

445
00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:06,519
this this guy who is thrust into these situations where

446
00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:10,559
he's he's he helps people, but he is putting himself

447
00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:14,559
in jeopardy every week. This poor staff doctor Richard Kimball,

448
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:18,039
is thrown into a situation where he's got to put

449
00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:20,799
his own safety in jeopardy to help somebody.

450
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,079
Speaker 4: There were so many shows like this. There were Your

451
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,680
Kung Fu, The Incredible Hulk, Have Gun, Will.

452
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: Travel, Run for Your Life.

453
00:25:32,039 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, that that were just sort of like like we

454
00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:36,920
will go to a new place every time, which is

455
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,160
not easy for television. That that is a that is

456
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,279
a real challenge because you have no standing sets. It's

457
00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:47,240
like if you're doing Dragnet, it's like, well, we're in

458
00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:51,279
their Dragnet office, you know, we can always go back there.

459
00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:57,960
Most most TV shows depend on repeatable sets that they

460
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,839
can build and then amortize the lost over however many episodes.

461
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,279
It's very difficult to do a show where you're really

462
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,160
trying to pull off. No, no, every week we're in

463
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,440
a new town, a new place. You know, you shoot

464
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,640
in southern California, you can do it for a while.

465
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,279
You was gonna make sure you got a really good

466
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:17,559
production designer. But it's tricky. But it's funny how many

467
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,200
there were. There were a lot of them.

468
00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:21,759
Speaker 1: And Richard I was the guy that when he was

469
00:26:21,799 --> 00:26:24,240
supposed to be in Michigan or wherever, I'd be looking

470
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,480
in the background to see that palm tree that they

471
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,720
didn't cover up, or if they shot just right and say, hey,

472
00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:32,880
you're in California, you can't fool me, man. But it

473
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,640
didn't matter. And again the music, Peter Ruggalow did the

474
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,599
basic score for The Fugitive and then they used something

475
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,279
called the CBS Library of Music where they used music

476
00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:49,000
from Jerry Goldsmith, Bernard Hermann that they had originally composed

477
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,440
for things like The Twilight Zone and so forth. So

478
00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:54,960
I had as a kid, I had a real ear

479
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,240
for music. I couldn't compose one note of music, but

480
00:26:58,319 --> 00:27:01,519
I was very attuned to the music they were using

481
00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:02,279
in these shows.

482
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 4: That's so funny. I didn't know that. I mean, again,

483
00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:08,640
for TV production at the time, it makes perfect sense

484
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,279
that they would repurpose music they already owned. Oh sure,

485
00:27:12,519 --> 00:27:17,440
which is a wise financial choice, but that's amazing picked

486
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:18,000
up on it.

487
00:27:18,319 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 1: Yeah and so and I even I even tuned into

488
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,400
the music before when I was a kid, before, I

489
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,960
actually was very aware of composers of who they were,

490
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,279
and then later on I figured out, oh, that's the

491
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:31,279
same guy. You know.

492
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 4: So shows were you like, I'm trying to think of

493
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,240
what other shows like were sort of character. I mean,

494
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,279
the Stephen Kennell shows were all Mike Post and Pete Carpenter,

495
00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:44,920
and they had their sound. I'm just trying to tak

496
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,599
o Lalo Schiffrin. You probably had a lot of Lallo

497
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,200
and Henry Matts. Could be for the Sunday Night Mystery movie, right.

498
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: Oh sure? But in the UH, I didn't really realize

499
00:27:55,519 --> 00:27:58,960
that the Fugitive had used all that music until you know,

500
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,279
they put up a whole bunch of Twilight Zone music

501
00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:04,559
out on LPs, originally like maybe six of them. So

502
00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:07,279
I'm listening to these, I'm thinking, hey, wait a minute,

503
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:13,759
that's Fugitive music, you know. Jerry Goldsmith, Bernard Herman, Fred Steiner,

504
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,279
Nathan Van Cleeve, Yes.

505
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,839
Speaker 4: Van Cleve, total Twilight Zone. I've been rewatching The Twilight

506
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,880
Zone and I see Van Cleeve all the time. Well

507
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,160
he did.

508
00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: Maybe you know that they would all do anywhere from

509
00:28:28,759 --> 00:28:32,200
four to six to whatever shows and then they would

510
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,200
become stock music for the TV show.

511
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I and I do recognize ques being reused.

512
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,160
It's funny that they didn't necessarily like Bernard Herman did

513
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,880
some like they sort of rotated their composers.

514
00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:49,519
Speaker 1: Right right. So so boy, you know, I could go

515
00:28:49,559 --> 00:28:52,039
on till midnight with this, well midnight for for you

516
00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:54,680
and for me. But I guess maybe it's.

517
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,559
Speaker 4: Like you're talking about six am. Let's wrap this up.

518
00:28:57,359 --> 00:29:00,599
Speaker 1: Maybe we should move ahead a little bit to you know,

519
00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:02,839
I listened what's what's the name of your podcast?

520
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 4: By the way, oh, Richard Hatham's paranormal bookshelf. Okay, I

521
00:29:09,319 --> 00:29:10,920
listen to everybody write that down.

522
00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: Actually, I put it up on my Facebook page, so

523
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,720
there's looking look for your logo.

524
00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:18,759
Speaker 4: And the and the link.

525
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: And uh. I listened to the the episode of the

526
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,720
Gray Barker's They do too much about flying saucers and

527
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:31,640
ladies and gentlemen. You've got to listen to that one.

528
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,359
Not only does Richard talk about this amazing book Bye

529
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,480
by Gray Barker, and I have some things to say

530
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,319
about that, about the Man in Black, that was published

531
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:43,119
way back in the fifties. I actually met Barker for

532
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:45,319
a few minutes. I'll tell you about that later. Uh

533
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,400
and uh. But but Richard gets into the what the

534
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,359
torture you went through and when you were starting to

535
00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:58,960
have the concept for the Mockman Prophecies film. And here's

536
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:01,920
one thing I did not realized. I had this vision

537
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,119
that that you know, the powers that be came to

538
00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:06,200
you had said, Richard, we need you to write a

539
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,640
screenplay for the Mothman Prophecies. That's not what happened at all.

540
00:30:09,839 --> 00:30:12,200
Please tell us that unfolded.

541
00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Mothman Prophecies was on no one's radar. This

542
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,039
was not something anybody wanted, which was cool to me.

543
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,720
I mean that that's what made it cool, was that. Okay,

544
00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:32,119
so at that time I had well, okay, there's a

545
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,559
lot going on, but let's let's start at the point where,

546
00:30:35,119 --> 00:30:38,279
of course I had spent my life reading books about

547
00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:43,400
people who had seen UFOs and Bigfoot and ghosts and

548
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,279
and and I was very sort of I was at

549
00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:50,960
that age, I was kind of obsessed with these with

550
00:30:51,039 --> 00:30:55,039
the notion of people having these transcendent experiences of well

551
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,279
high strangeness, and and I was like, you know, that's

552
00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:01,039
always been an interest of mine. There should be a

553
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:05,640
way to write a movie about it. But every movie

554
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,440
is sort of so elevated, Like I love Poltergeist. I

555
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,920
love that movie, but it's not there's no it's not

556
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,799
about a Poltergeist no, you know. And The Changeling with

557
00:31:18,839 --> 00:31:24,160
George C. Scott has some really cool, kind of realistic,

558
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,799
you know, parapsychological stuff going on, but at a certain

559
00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:30,799
point it just becomes a murder mystery. It's just like,

560
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,079
who's the kid? What are these bones we found in

561
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:36,680
the basement? We need to solve the crime. And I'm like,

562
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,400
that's the problem. All these movies start out with all

563
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,200
these really intriguing questions, but then they have to answer them,

564
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,000
but in real life those questions never get answered. And

565
00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:49,680
I was like, isn't there a way to tell a

566
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:52,920
movie that reflects that somehow? But I'm like, well, I

567
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,319
don't know how to do that, because how do you

568
00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:57,119
do a movie that does not have an ending? You

569
00:31:57,319 --> 00:32:01,039
just have a middle. It's like, well, we tried everything

570
00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:03,440
we could to figure it out, and we couldn't get

571
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,160
out everybody.

572
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,039
Speaker 1: And that was that was the Mothman Prophecies the book.

573
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,039
Speaker 4: Right, Okay. So then, as all this is sort of

574
00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:14,559
boiling through my mind for a few months, I go

575
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,440
to a bookstore in Los Angeles on a Sunday. We're

576
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,359
hanging out with friends on the West Side, and it's

577
00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:23,920
a place called the Bodi Tree, which is no longer there,

578
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,119
but it was a new age bookstore in an old

579
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,640
rambling house at the very end of Melrose Avenue. And

580
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,480
I'm wandering around and Illuminet had come out with their

581
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,880
their reprint of The Mothman Prophecies, with the Frank Frizetta recover. Right,

582
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,680
So I'm like, what is this and it's vaguely I'm like,

583
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:50,400
moth Man, I think I've heard of. So I pulled

584
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,920
the book out, I read the back, and by the

585
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,799
time I'm done reading the back of the book, I'm like,

586
00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:59,640
this is a movie and this is my movie. I

587
00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:02,799
buy the book. And of course, when you get that feeling,

588
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,400
you're like, oh God, please let me let this instinct

589
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,319
be correct. Don't let me start reading his book in

590
00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:12,799
twenty pages, twenty pages in go this is ridiculous. So

591
00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:16,519
I buy the book, read it. Never don't know John

592
00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:20,000
Keel from anybody read. I read the book and it

593
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:24,240
is like the top of my head came off. I've

594
00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:27,880
never read anything like it. And and the fact that

595
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,160
it began to involve him. I'm like, I've never read

596
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,160
a book about the supernatural where it's the author suddenly

597
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,480
is the focus of the phenomenon. Like this is insane.

598
00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:41,079
I'm like, this is the greatest thing ever. There's no

599
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,319
story here. It's all over the place. There's a million

600
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,200
things going on. I don't know what I'm going to do,

601
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,839
but this is it. So yeah. So I got in

602
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,359
touch through my agent, got in touch with John Keel,

603
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,480
who had had a bad experience you know he had.

604
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:03,799
When I spoke to him, he's like, you know, you're

605
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:05,799
not the first one to try to make this movie.

606
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:08,119
I'm like, what are you talking about? And he said,

607
00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:11,159
he said, you know, ten fifteen years ago, I got

608
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,920
a call from my lawyer that they were making the movie.

609
00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:16,119
Someone was just making the movie. They'd never come to

610
00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:20,480
me for the rights to my book. It was it

611
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:24,599
was what is it called? You know? Sun Classic International

612
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,760
or something. The people who made In Search of Noah's Ark.

613
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: Oh no, oh, no.

614
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 4: Those guys, and I love those movies, but they were

615
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:41,239
pretty shady their whole operation. And so Keel's lawyer, a

616
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:49,599
man with the deathless name of Knox Burger, shut them down.

617
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,119
And when you've been shut down by Knox Burger, you've

618
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:56,360
been shut down. We shut them down. So he was

619
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,960
just like, well, thanks at least for calling me up,

620
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,239
you know. And I'm like, no, I love your book.

621
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,480
I I want to try to I want to try

622
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,880
to do this, and I can't do the whole book,

623
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,559
but I love this sort of the whole philosophical approach

624
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,280
of you know, when you get into these areas, you

625
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,800
may never get out, and that was part of his

626
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,239
story also obviously. So he was like, oh, well, okay,

627
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,559
so I you know, we wrote him a check for

628
00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:31,480
a one year option, I think, and an option deal

629
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:35,440
allows me to sort of go into meetings at the

630
00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:38,960
various Hollywood studios and say, Hi, here's the book, here's me,

631
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,360
here's the movie I want to write. Would you pay

632
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,199
me money to write it? So that was the plan,

633
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,880
but my problem was I was a writer, not a salesman,

634
00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:54,840
and I'm like, I don't really know if I can

635
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,760
do this, so I've really got to figure this out.

636
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:03,159
So I spent I ended up spending months writing notes

637
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,800
for a pitch, and then I had a forty page outline.

638
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,119
So I called up my agent and I'm like, because

639
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:13,840
he's like, are you ready to pitch this thing yet?

640
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,320
I'm like, well, I've got an outline. Can I come

641
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,519
read it to you? And I don't know why I

642
00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:23,239
needed to read it to him, but I couldn't just

643
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,159
give it to I'm like, I need to read it.

644
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,480
Can you just block out an hour let me read

645
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,880
it to you. He's like, okay. So I drive out

646
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,639
to you know again, Century City. I go up into

647
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,320
my agent's office and I'm like, okay, sit down, lock

648
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,559
your door, turn off your phone. Here we go, fade

649
00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:41,239
in and I start reading him an outline, which is, oh,

650
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,400
basically the movie and you know, and I keep looking

651
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:51,039
up at him. He's like, oh, I'm listening. And when

652
00:36:51,039 --> 00:36:55,239
I finished, he's like, well, how long would it take

653
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,760
you to just write the script? And I'm like, I

654
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,719
don't know, a month, six weeks. He's like, then, just

655
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,760
go write it. Just go write it. We'll sell it

656
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,840
as a script. You'll make more money anyway. So I'm

657
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,920
like okay. So then I went wrote the script, gave

658
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,719
it to him. He read it. He's like, this is

659
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,480
the best specscript I've ever read. This is gonna sell

660
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:23,000
for a million dollars. So if you're an agent, never

661
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:29,639
say to your client this is gonna sell for a

662
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,760
million dollars. You're setting the bar too high. He sends

663
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:41,840
it out. It sells for zero dollars to nobody. The

664
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,760
script goes, It goes all over town. Everyone. Ron Howard

665
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,400
reads it. You know. Ron Howard's like, I can't make

666
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,960
this movie. It's a tweener. It's it's in between. It's

667
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,000
not horror. It's not something that's a tweener. Like, Okay,

668
00:37:54,159 --> 00:37:56,199
there are people who are upset. They're like, well, this

669
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,280
is great, but like at the end, shouldn't he fight

670
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:07,960
the mothman on the bridge? And I was like, no,

671
00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:10,840
that's just not what this movie is. So it's like, okay,

672
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,119
you know what, it didn't sell. I'm happy with what

673
00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:16,360
I did. I'm I'm you know, I'm proud of the thing,

674
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,840
but I don't want someone making a shitty version of it,

675
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:25,199
so it's like, okay, didn't sell, Fine, didn't sell. Then Uh.

676
00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:28,039
Then one of the producers on Under Siege Too, a

677
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:31,400
guy named Gary Goldstein, uh, calls me up and he's like, hey,

678
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,159
so I hear you went around town with a script.

679
00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:35,440
Oh what happened? I'm like, I went around and didn't sell.

680
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,039
He's like, can I read it? Sure, he reads it.

681
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,320
He says, this is really great. And he's a producer,

682
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,800
you know, a you know, creative producer. So he says,

683
00:38:48,519 --> 00:38:50,159
let me ask you a question. Did you take it

684
00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:52,000
to hear? Did you take it to hear? Did you

685
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,920
show it to this guy at this company? Did you

686
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,760
show it to this guy at this company? These are

687
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,800
his connections. One of them was Lakeshore and my agent

688
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,800
and I are like, noose those three four places we

689
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,679
didn't go to. He's like, would you allow me to

690
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,639
walk it in? Walking it in means that he goes

691
00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:14,480
in with the script and says, I've worked with Richard,

692
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,400
this is a great script. I'm bringing it to you

693
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,800
if it sells. I am one of the producers simply

694
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,599
for bringing it to your attention, which is totally legit.

695
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,559
So he brought it around and Lakeshore read it and

696
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,039
called me up and said we'd like to have a

697
00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:32,039
meeting with you. So I'm like, wow, okay, well maybe

698
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:35,280
there's this. The heartbeat has come back, the near death

699
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:41,400
experiences has ended. So I go to the meeting at

700
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:48,719
Lakeshore and it's the worst meeting I've ever seeks. It's

701
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,679
like literally everything they're saying. I'm like, no, not really,

702
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,280
it's actually this and they're like huh. They're like, well,

703
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,039
what we really loved was that you did this. I'm like,

704
00:39:57,039 --> 00:39:58,519
well that's not what I did. I was actually trying

705
00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:01,079
to do this other thing, and they're like huh. I

706
00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:04,639
walk out listen. Usually I walk out thinking it's been

707
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:07,039
the greatest meeting ever and there's no way it can't sell.

708
00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:09,760
I called up my agent, I'm like, this was bad.

709
00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:13,760
This was a bad meeting, so let's just move on.

710
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,719
Two days later, he calls me up. Lakeshore wants it,

711
00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:24,239
and I'm like what this is insane. He's like no, no, no,

712
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,840
They really love it. They apologize for they know the

713
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,159
meeting was weird, but they actually love it. They get it,

714
00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:32,360
they do know what it is, and they want they

715
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:33,639
want to buy it. Now, they're not going to pay

716
00:40:33,679 --> 00:40:36,679
you much. They was gonna pay you a little, but

717
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,039
I think you should do it. And I'm like, well why.

718
00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:42,440
He's like, here's the thing about Lakeshore. They have no money.

719
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,519
Everything they buy they make. They have to. That's their

720
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:51,159
financial model. They have no choice. They can't buy one

721
00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:53,719
hundred things and then discard ninety of them. If they

722
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,880
buy five things, they make those five things. He said,

723
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,320
if they buy your script, they will make it. And

724
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,639
I'm like, you know, I want Okay, that's all. I'll

725
00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:04,320
believe you. What else am I going to do? So?

726
00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:08,719
And sure enough they bought it, they understood it, they

727
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,960
got it to Mark Pellington, they got it to Richard

728
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,679
Gear and the movie got made and it was it

729
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,519
was what I wrote. I mean, that movie is what

730
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:18,960
I wrote, which is that never happens, especially when it's

731
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,480
something a little offbeat I got. I won the movie

732
00:41:23,519 --> 00:41:26,599
lottery with Mark Pellington, Richard Gear the whole deal. I

733
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:28,559
just I'm luckiest screenwriter in the world.

734
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: You really did. And I have to tell you your presence

735
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:36,199
is felt at the Mothman Museum because they have we

736
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,880
have five documentaries going at the same time, including the

737
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,599
Mothman legacy. Now I have I'm very humble to say this,

738
00:41:43,639 --> 00:41:46,039
but I'm also in that as a talking head. So

739
00:41:46,119 --> 00:41:47,840
I know when when you show up on the Mothman

740
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,440
Legacy Richard had on screenwriter of the Mothman prophecies, I'm

741
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,719
soon to follow. So I'll just kind of hang around

742
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,000
and I'll point to get somebody's attention back there and say, hey,

743
00:41:57,039 --> 00:41:59,440
look at that guy. He's strikingly handsome, but he's so

744
00:41:59,559 --> 00:42:03,360
full of them, you know. Anyway, So but honestly, and

745
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,800
we're all the way in the back, you know. But

746
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,760
but but the Mothman Legacy keeps cranking along. And what

747
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:12,800
reminded me you're in there saying that you had when

748
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,480
you first got into this, you wanted to solve the

749
00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:18,719
mystery of the parent ormal. And then it's like hitting

750
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:22,480
tell us what you you know, what you came up

751
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,000
against when when you really thought you were gonna solve

752
00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:27,679
the mystery?

753
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 4: Well, I don't you know, I don't remember what I

754
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,480
said in that documentary. It's so funny that there's a

755
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:37,760
documentary playing in a store in a place I've never been.

756
00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:42,000
People walk through, they see my face. I don't know

757
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,800
what I'm so excited to go. And by the way,

758
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,639
if you're within this out of my voice, this is

759
00:42:47,679 --> 00:42:51,000
the year I will finally be at the Mothman Festival

760
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:52,239
in Point Pleasant.

761
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 1: That'll be awesome.

762
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 4: I can't wait to see you there, Steve. But anyway,

763
00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:00,360
but I think I'm like everybody. I think a lot

764
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,679
of people kind of go through their life. They're aware

765
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,159
of UFOs and stuff. Especially with UFOs. I think UFOs

766
00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:14,079
is sort of the the classic experience of people going okay, wait,

767
00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:17,280
I'm hearing a siren. Is everyone okay, yeah, oh.

768
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:20,039
Speaker 1: Here, that's I think that was my signiren over here?

769
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 4: Is that your ride something?

770
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: I'm right on? Uh on when it was Vyan Street,

771
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:27,119
which is around sixty two with the Scaraberris on the

772
00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:29,679
mallets fled the Mockman from the T and T area,

773
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:33,199
So there's there's there's fire stage. My cats, you know,

774
00:43:33,679 --> 00:43:36,639
they're used to it by now. But it's uh that's

775
00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:39,199
probably just normal traffic over here.

776
00:43:39,559 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 4: It's killing me that you're right there, but I'll be

777
00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:44,840
there soon. But anyway, I think I think what people

778
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,159
tend to do is something will happen, a project will

779
00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:50,800
come along, or they'll decide to write an article or

780
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,679
do a podcast or something, and then they're like, you

781
00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:55,320
know what, I'm finally going to like really take a

782
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,760
look at this UFO thing. And they get a handful

783
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,719
of books and they start read them, and I think

784
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:04,639
there's like these stages you go through, and I think

785
00:44:04,679 --> 00:44:07,119
everyone goes through them of I'm gonna read that I

786
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:11,079
am a reasonable person. I'm not a believer. I'm not

787
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:14,239
a skeptic. I am willing to be I want to

788
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,960
hear some arguments. And you get some books and you

789
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,079
read the books, and the books are fascinating and they

790
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,599
run the gamut now of course, and then but they

791
00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:28,440
always end with like, wow, that's not that's not the

792
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,400
full answer. Like these people are sort of like we

793
00:44:30,519 --> 00:44:33,840
think we know, but then you read another one and

794
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,800
then you're like huh. And then you keep reading, and

795
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,320
then you get to a point of like, well wait

796
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,920
a second. Then you get into the weird stuff. Then

797
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,159
you get into the Whitley Streeber and the John Keel

798
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,440
cause you're like, maybe I have to, like I got

799
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,159
to stop reading the Nick Pope and the all the

800
00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:55,840
government stuff, and I gotta let me, let me see

801
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,000
if I can find out what those then you read

802
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,559
that stuff and then your head really explodes and you're like,

803
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,960
none of this stuff is making sense. And then you

804
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,760
begin to sense that there's two camps. You know, You've

805
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,159
got the etahs and then the other and it's like

806
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:19,119
it's like there's it's like, okay, one side thinks physical

807
00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:25,400
biological aliens and visiting Earth and crashing their discs, and

808
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,360
the government's got them and the reverse engineering this and

809
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,039
they're doing an autopsy on that, and they've made a

810
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:34,199
treaty and there's a deal and we're going to let

811
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,119
them abduct people in this whole like what. And then

812
00:45:38,159 --> 00:45:41,880
on the other side, it's just people going I had

813
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,519
an experience and it's not totally physical. I mean you

814
00:45:45,559 --> 00:45:49,880
really get into sort of the psychic element of what

815
00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:55,639
these encounters are like, and they're not purely physical. And

816
00:45:55,639 --> 00:45:58,119
that's why it's so hard for the experiencers to articulate

817
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:00,599
what they went through, because it's like, how do you

818
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,440
describe a thing that you experience as physical but then

819
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,119
also partially not. For it's like I don't I don't

820
00:46:08,159 --> 00:46:09,480
know how I got in, I don't know how I

821
00:46:09,519 --> 00:46:12,400
got out, but I know I was there and I

822
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,400
had physical sensations and it wasn't a dream and I

823
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,119
don't know what it was and it scares the hell

824
00:46:18,159 --> 00:46:22,079
out of me. And then you're really up a tree

825
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,519
and you you know, you either again, you either go,

826
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:28,760
you know what, Maybe this UFO thing is best left

827
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,840
to somebody else. I got a life. I gotta go

828
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,880
live it. See you later, folks. Or it becomes the

829
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,280
question of your life, it becomes your thing. You don't golf,

830
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,679
you don't play video games. You read about UFOs and

831
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,000
you you don't do crossword puzzles, you don't do sudoku.

832
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,760
You read about UFOs and you just go, how right?

833
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,880
It's like, how do There's got to be a way

834
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,320
to connect all these dots and I've got to do

835
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,559
You guys know Rob Christofferson with his R Strange Skies podcast,

836
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,199
I do not know. Rob is a guy who lives

837
00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:09,119
in upstate New York, and he's like an autodidac. He

838
00:47:09,199 --> 00:47:13,159
remembers everything about every UFO case he's ever read. Probably

839
00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:17,079
about forty years old, lives a small town, but he

840
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:20,960
knows like there's not a UFO encounter that he isn't like, oh, yes,

841
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:23,800
that was in France in nineteen fifty one, and let

842
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,079
me tell you exactly what it was. He knows everything.

843
00:47:26,199 --> 00:47:28,000
So I go on his show and I'm like, Rob,

844
00:47:28,079 --> 00:47:31,159
I've solved it. I've solved the alien abduction thing. I've

845
00:47:31,159 --> 00:47:33,800
got the answer. And then I give him my answer

846
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:39,679
and he's like, thank you, Finally it's solved. But it's

847
00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:43,519
like it's impossible. It's like it's it literally is the

848
00:47:43,519 --> 00:47:44,280
perfect puzzle.

849
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me do my station identification.

850
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:48,519
Speaker 4: Here.

851
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:51,519
Speaker 1: You are listening to the High Strangeress Factor Concrarator in

852
00:47:51,519 --> 00:47:55,599
the Paranormal UK Radio Network. Today, Andy Susie and I

853
00:47:55,679 --> 00:47:59,079
are talking to Richard Hannam, the screenwriter of the mockband

854
00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:02,239
Prophecies about all kinds of good stuff. Now I have

855
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,320
to mention Brent Rains. Brent Rains is someone that never

856
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,679
met John Keele, but he corresponded with him and talked

857
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,840
him on the phone many times. He has a Facebook

858
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,719
page called Alternate Perceptions. And there was even a time

859
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,679
when he published a magazine that you could hold in

860
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,159
your hands and read the print and keep it in

861
00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:24,920
a box somewhere. But he wrote a great book called

862
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,840
John Keele. Now nobody can see this on the podcast,

863
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,280
but John Keel, the man the Myths and the Ongoing Mysteries.

864
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,239
And in here he's talking to Sandra Martin, who was

865
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,679
the literary agent for John Keele. And she used to

866
00:48:39,679 --> 00:48:43,480
publish self help books and that sort of thing, but

867
00:48:43,559 --> 00:48:45,960
she loved people like Keel. She thought he was a

868
00:48:46,039 --> 00:48:49,000
great writer, and she wanted to help promote his stuff.

869
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,400
She's the one that produced the Complete Guide to Mysterious Beings,

870
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,800
which was a reprint of Strange Creatures from Time and Space,

871
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,159
which I had that other great Frankfurzet of pen on

872
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:03,880
the cover. Anyway, uh he uh, he was. He was

873
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,840
complaining about the the the scripts that were coming, he says, uh.

874
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,079
He would call me at my office to complain bitterly

875
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,400
about how they were butchering my story. After a few

876
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,400
years of this, he called and said, Sandra, I finally

877
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,079
got a really good script for the Mothband Prophecies. And

878
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:20,599
he said, well, let me preface this first.

879
00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 4: And he was.

880
00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:23,280
Speaker 1: He said, well, they've updated it, They've got him married

881
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,320
and so forth, you know. So he you know, I

882
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,519
mentioned that, but he said they were all these things

883
00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:33,519
were not true. But he said, but this is this,

884
00:49:33,519 --> 00:49:37,079
this particular screenplay was true. To the heart of the story.

885
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:40,119
They were true to the things that happened and and

886
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,320
didn't exaggerate. And he's talking about your screenplay, Richard, and

887
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,440
he she says, he was laughing on the phone. He

888
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,639
was so happy, and I mean, this is such a

889
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,880
change from I imagine he was getting screenplays where they

890
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,360
were turning Mothman into a monster or something like that.

891
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,880
But uh, so that, you know, that was really cool.

892
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,800
He loved your screenplay. And also I heard him back then.

893
00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:09,840
You know, he had done very few interviews, so when

894
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,880
the film was coming out, he was actually on Coast

895
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,360
to Coast am And this is back when Art Bell

896
00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:17,079
was still at the Helm, right, And now Art Bell

897
00:50:17,159 --> 00:50:20,079
didn't know anything about Mothman. I'm thinking, what's the matter

898
00:50:20,119 --> 00:50:22,320
with you? And there were other people that didn't know.

899
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,360
There was one guy that was promoting some kind of

900
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:30,000
a event and John Keel might be there and he's saying,

901
00:50:30,159 --> 00:50:32,280
I'm sorry, this is a UFO guy that's been around

902
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,079
a while, but I don't remember his name, and I'm going,

903
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:38,800
this is sacrilege, you guys. So Keel was being back then,

904
00:50:39,159 --> 00:50:41,599
Keel was being forgotten and a lot of his stuff

905
00:50:41,679 --> 00:50:46,039
was not in print anymore. That's all changed. But so anyway,

906
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:48,239
art Bell asked him out right, he said, well, what

907
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,039
did you think of the movie? He said, and you

908
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:53,159
know how Keel talked, very kind of soft spoken. He says, well,

909
00:50:53,199 --> 00:50:55,440
I like the movie, and he said, the thing it

910
00:50:55,519 --> 00:50:59,599
really captured was the paranoia I felt at that time.

911
00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:02,199
And you all, we've all read them A Band Prophecy

912
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,280
if you remember the chapter called PARANOIAX are Made not Born,

913
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,079
that that really brings it home. So well, you hit

914
00:51:10,119 --> 00:51:12,039
a home run with John Keel, that's for sure.

915
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,519
Speaker 4: You know. Hearing stuff like that is so great. I

916
00:51:17,159 --> 00:51:19,960
should get Brent's book. I unfortunately have not read it yet.

917
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,679
I would love to see it. You know, it was

918
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,280
it was an odd thing. Okay, So I read the

919
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:33,000
book and I really felt like, well, this is really

920
00:51:33,039 --> 00:51:37,239
something like this, but I know that no one really

921
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,239
knows what this is. So in a way that was good.

922
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,199
I was sort of like I can be the person

923
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,559
bringing this in. It's you know, it's not Harry Potter.

924
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,119
I can walk in. No one else has got this,

925
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:54,079
but I'm like, this guy is onto something and and

926
00:51:54,199 --> 00:51:56,000
you know, and then of course you read the book

927
00:51:56,039 --> 00:51:58,840
and you're like I want to This guy's a living legend.

928
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,639
I want to talk to him. And so I was

929
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,000
very I wanted to impress him. I wanted him to

930
00:52:05,079 --> 00:52:10,360
be I wanted him to like what I did. I

931
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,559
wanted there to be this connection like you do. Like

932
00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:16,599
if I was adapting a Stephen King novel, it would

933
00:52:16,639 --> 00:52:19,199
be like, well, I want to write it, but do

934
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,639
I get to meet him? Can I have coffee with

935
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:27,599
Stephen King? Can I tell him why my whole career

936
00:52:27,679 --> 00:52:31,679
is based on him? Please? That's what it felt like.

937
00:52:32,519 --> 00:52:34,400
And so we talked and he was a nice guy.

938
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,280
I will tell you when I sent him the script,

939
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,159
at first, the impression I got was that he was

940
00:52:39,199 --> 00:52:43,599
not all that thrilled. And I think it actually took

941
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,599
him a minute and the reality of the film, the

942
00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:51,800
fact that oh it now has been purchased by a

943
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,239
production company and they're taking it seriously and now they're

944
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,320
actually going to get a movie star, and he was

945
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,199
so thrilled. That is well. I think with Richard Gear,

946
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,159
they've really captured the resemblance.

947
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: I remember hearing him saying that, yeah, they got somebody,

948
00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:11,440
you know, as ugly as Richard Gear to portray him.

949
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,880
Of course he was kidding, but he was really tickled

950
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:15,360
about that.

951
00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 2: So it's probably not as big of a deal as

952
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,079
keel approving of it. But this is the first movie

953
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:24,039
we've talked about that I've actually seen.

954
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:30,079
Speaker 4: Oh but you haven't mentioned your opinion of it, But

955
00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:30,559
that's okay.

956
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 2: So you did try to ruin it with romance a

957
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,599
little bit, but I'll forgive you for that because the

958
00:53:37,639 --> 00:53:38,480
rest was great.

959
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: Well, wait a minute, tell Richard about the part that

960
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,599
you wish had been put in the in the movie.

961
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:49,960
I don't remember this part in the book.

962
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,679
Speaker 2: So there is a part of the book that I

963
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,639
seem to be the only one who noticed there is.

964
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,400
It's it's towards the beginning of the book that he

965
00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:06,400
is talking about somebody's standing on the river bank and

966
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,960
they look across the river and they see a red

967
00:54:09,199 --> 00:54:14,480
orb and then a little person. I seem to be

968
00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:16,599
the only one that pays attention to that. I happen

969
00:54:16,679 --> 00:54:21,840
to research puckwadgies and little people lore and in the

970
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:26,360
area which I live in, they are commonly spotted right

971
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:31,280
after a red orb of light, and it's folklore that

972
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:36,159
started pre colonization. So going back hundreds and hundreds of years.

973
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,440
So I read that part and I said, there was

974
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,800
a puckwadgie during the Mothman flap. And I don't think

975
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,360
anyone has really ever mentioned it besides me, and no

976
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,440
one ever seems to remember reading it either.

977
00:54:50,519 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 4: So can you I've heard of the puckwajie. I love

978
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,880
the name. Can you tell me about the puck? Like?

979
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,960
What what makes a puckwajie?

980
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:03,079
Speaker 2: So it's an Algonquin word. They are commonly in the

981
00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:08,880
Northeast United States. They are little people similar to you know,

982
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:14,199
little people in other cultures. You know, gnomes, dwarfs, fay creatures,

983
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:22,519
small mischievous creatures. Puck wedgies are come what they're called

984
00:55:22,559 --> 00:55:25,119
in this area. But there, you know, you have little

985
00:55:25,119 --> 00:55:29,760
people lore in every single culture throughout the world. It is,

986
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:32,880
as far as we can tell, one of the oldest

987
00:55:33,639 --> 00:55:36,320
kind of folklore stories creatures.

988
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,639
Speaker 4: And then and then so the and the red orb

989
00:55:40,159 --> 00:55:43,360
is because not people. I don't think there's a ton

990
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,639
of people who know a ton about puck wedgies off

991
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:48,920
the top of their head. So is that an associated phenomenon?

992
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, So here they're called type wonkas. In back in

993
00:55:55,559 --> 00:56:00,079
England they're called will of the wisps, I believe, but

994
00:56:00,199 --> 00:56:06,119
that they're yeah, they're very it's in this area they

995
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:11,079
are spotted first, and they will kind of float along

996
00:56:12,079 --> 00:56:16,000
and bring you to the creature, so they kind of

997
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,000
you kind of want to follow them to see what's

998
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,400
going on, and that's they kind of draw you in.

999
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 4: It is funny how often light or some sort of

1000
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:34,199
light phenomenon is. It's fucking one of these things that

1001
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,000
makes me feel like God the answers is right in

1002
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:40,360
front of us, and we're just it's got something to

1003
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,840
do with light, you know. Recently, and I think I

1004
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,000
talked about this on one of the more recent podcasts,

1005
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,039
the amount well a couple of things, but the amount

1006
00:56:50,119 --> 00:56:57,880
of phenomenon that involve electricity, yes, yep, and people talking

1007
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:03,159
about electricity and and it's like, what is that the

1008
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:08,039
ultimate nature of everything, of the of the not the

1009
00:57:08,119 --> 00:57:12,360
our physical incarnation, but sort of the world of consciousness

1010
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:18,280
is electricity, the the terra firma, if you will, that

1011
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,920
it exists on because it seems like that there's this

1012
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,360
other thing that I was noticing that when people have

1013
00:57:26,559 --> 00:57:29,159
UFO experiences, like if they're in their home and they

1014
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,440
they wake up and there's like the room is filling

1015
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:38,079
with light. So often they will say I thought I

1016
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:43,719
thought the house was on fire. They'll mention fire. They won't.

1017
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:45,639
They won't say, oh, it seemed like there was a

1018
00:57:45,679 --> 00:57:49,320
police helicopter outside, like shining one of those you know,

1019
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,239
search lights or the neighbor's floodlights came on. It's like,

1020
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,440
I thought the house was on fire or it looked

1021
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,519
like a fire or a fire in the sky, and

1022
00:57:58,559 --> 00:58:01,800
I'm like, what is that. That's that does not seem

1023
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,360
like the go to thing or word you would use

1024
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:10,960
to describe a light that you see. And that bugs me. Yeah.

1025
00:58:11,079 --> 00:58:15,079
Speaker 2: I last year I talked to an eyewitness, a puquag eyewitness,

1026
00:58:15,119 --> 00:58:19,519
who said that after the sighting, it smelled like Ozone

1027
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,679
and there were a ton of lightning bugs around that

1028
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,800
he didn't notice before.

1029
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 4: Interesting, Yeah, there's something. I think. It's those details. It's

1030
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,599
that small, it's that small stuff. But no, no, so,

1031
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,360
but the red the red orb that's worldwide you're finding.

1032
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:44,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's always other creatures spotted in the same area.

1033
00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:49,480
So I mainly focus on the Bridgewater Triangle which is

1034
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:56,079
southeast Massachusetts, and there's there's UFO sightings, there's Bigfoot, there

1035
00:58:56,119 --> 00:59:02,559
are giant snakes. We had a winged humanoid figure that

1036
00:59:03,639 --> 00:59:05,760
looked like a man and then all of a sudden

1037
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,800
sprouted wings and flew straight up into the sky. And

1038
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:14,079
that was reported by a police officer. So it's another,

1039
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,239
you know, kind of high strangeness area, right.

1040
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 4: So wait, so, Susie, what do you like Do you

1041
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,400
have like a oh, your blog is how you communicate

1042
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:23,880
with the world.

1043
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have the blog and I have a YouTube channel.

1044
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:29,679
The YouTube channel has kind of gone a little bit

1045
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,000
off the rails to be honest though.

1046
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 4: So well, why because you're always drunk or something.

1047
00:59:38,639 --> 00:59:41,519
Speaker 2: I that is my place to do what I want

1048
00:59:41,599 --> 00:59:44,920
to do. So sometimes you have me wandering through a

1049
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,320
swamp looking at stone walls. Other times you have me

1050
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,559
and my friends watching Bigfoot videos and laughing at him.

1051
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 4: So you never know where you're going to get.

1052
00:59:55,559 --> 00:59:58,599
Speaker 1: Listen, Listen, Susie is as sober as a judge, then

1053
00:59:58,719 --> 00:59:59,599
you can bet on that.

1054
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 4: Well, if you're talking about the judges, I know I

1055
01:00:09,119 --> 01:00:11,960
love that yet and I will tell you no, here's

1056
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,599
the thing about the Mothman prophecies, and you you kind

1057
01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:16,679
of you kind of hit the nail on the head

1058
01:00:17,119 --> 01:00:20,440
there is so much. There's so much going on in

1059
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,840
that book. I mean, I mean, and now add Puck

1060
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:27,079
Wadgis to the list. But from Mothman to Thunderbirds to

1061
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,639
Tulpa's to Men in Black, you know, weird you know,

1062
01:00:31,159 --> 01:00:36,039
phone calls from weird entities, Poltergeist Actagy, there's it's almost

1063
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,239
And I remember telling my agent about it, uh, when

1064
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,599
I was sort of like, oh, well, there's this book

1065
01:00:41,639 --> 01:00:45,360
I read that I'm kind of interested in, and I

1066
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,079
described it to him and from then on he referred

1067
01:00:49,079 --> 01:00:54,000
to it as my haunted town idea. And I'm like,

1068
01:00:54,119 --> 01:00:56,280
he's calling it a haunted town. I'm like, oh, because

1069
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,079
from his agent's mind, you know, you can do a

1070
01:01:00,159 --> 01:01:04,440
haunted house movie, but this is a haunted town movie.

1071
01:01:05,159 --> 01:01:08,159
The whole town is haunted. It takes it up a level.

1072
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,000
So I'm like, yeah, I guess it is a haunted town.

1073
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,920
And then it kind of was it kind of is,

1074
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,159
but I don't know, Steve. I mean, it's stuff still

1075
01:01:16,159 --> 01:01:17,760
going on in Point Pleasant.

1076
01:01:18,679 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: That it seems to have torn down a bit. People

1077
01:01:21,039 --> 01:01:23,000
in the T and T area. People will see shadow

1078
01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:26,000
people and that sort of thing. Did you did you

1079
01:01:26,039 --> 01:01:29,559
know that the about half the Moth Banded Prophecies manuscript

1080
01:01:29,599 --> 01:01:32,199
was cut out when Kiel went to publish it.

1081
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, when it was called Year of the Garuda, and.

1082
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,639
Speaker 1: That was his original title, but they they cut out

1083
01:01:39,639 --> 01:01:42,079
half of it. Now, a lot of that's preserved in

1084
01:01:42,119 --> 01:01:44,599
the Eighth Tower, which is kind of the sequel to

1085
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,440
the Right to the Moth band Prophecies. But one thing

1086
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,599
back to the movie. You said you struck gold with

1087
01:01:49,719 --> 01:01:54,239
the cast and so forth. Uh, the scenes between Richard

1088
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,880
Gear and Alan Bates, My god, those those that's so

1089
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,840
pivotal in the movie. And the one scene toward the

1090
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,320
end where Richard Gere's character he's at his WIT's end.

1091
01:02:05,559 --> 01:02:07,960
He's trying, he wants to protect these people, he wants

1092
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,599
to understand what's going on. And Alan Bates character has

1093
01:02:11,599 --> 01:02:13,920
been through all this, his life has been destroyed. He

1094
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,480
wants nothing to do with it. And Richard Gear says,

1095
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,400
didn't you need to know? And Adam Bates plays it

1096
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,239
so well, the pause, the way he cocks his head

1097
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:28,239
and so forth, and says we're not allowed to know. Yeah, yeah,

1098
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:29,079
what a great scene.

1099
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 4: Okay, So a couple things, so many things. Alan Bates

1100
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,400
brilliant and I love that, and I love what he did,

1101
01:02:39,679 --> 01:02:44,239
and I am I have no complaints. As we say,

1102
01:02:44,599 --> 01:02:49,440
zero notes, no notes. But when I wrote it, I

1103
01:02:49,519 --> 01:02:53,920
was like, you know, in a way, that character is key,

1104
01:02:54,079 --> 01:03:00,000
that's future zeal right. So in my mind I really

1105
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:06,320
wanted like Robert Duval or Harvey Kaitel. I just wanted

1106
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:11,320
someone who felt very blue collar, very non academic, just

1107
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,760
sort of like a cab driver, just sort of like, look,

1108
01:03:14,599 --> 01:03:16,920
you know, I've been through the you know, it's like

1109
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,559
the opposite of the guy who's coming to your haunted house. Andy.

1110
01:03:21,679 --> 01:03:24,119
I'm sorry, but you know, you slap a British accent

1111
01:03:24,199 --> 01:03:30,400
on someone and suddenly they sound smart, and I know

1112
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:37,559
you've been trading on that for decades in America. We

1113
01:03:37,599 --> 01:03:42,000
all think you're smart. Frankly, up until Ricky Gervais, I

1114
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:48,800
think we were goods. You can keep them both. We

1115
01:03:49,119 --> 01:03:51,000
got a little David Brent and we're like, oh, they're

1116
01:03:51,039 --> 01:03:58,360
just like us. But then they got Alan bas. I'm like, okay,

1117
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,199
you went British, you went that fine, and it was

1118
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:07,639
it was great, but but okay, So so Lakeshore calls

1119
01:04:07,679 --> 01:04:10,840
me up and they're like, okay, look, we're trying you know,

1120
01:04:11,039 --> 01:04:13,280
Richard Gear is the guy we want, and he is

1121
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:16,320
currently filming a movie right now for us called The

1122
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,239
Runaway Bride with Julia Roberts. Gary Marshall's directing, and they're

1123
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:26,400
in Baltimore, of all places. So pack your bags. Next week,

1124
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,360
we're going to Baltimore and we're gonna meet with Richard

1125
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:31,760
Gear and have a preliminary sort of like hey, so

1126
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,320
here's kind of you know, here's the This is before

1127
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:38,159
Mark Pellington was on. There was another director named Carl Franklin.

1128
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:43,519
Great guy, super talented, really nice guy. And it's like, well,

1129
01:04:43,599 --> 01:04:47,239
let's let's begin the seduction of Richard Gear because apparently

1130
01:04:47,599 --> 01:04:51,199
they told me it takes him years to commit to

1131
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,960
a movie, like he just at that point, you'd have

1132
01:04:55,000 --> 01:05:00,760
to seduce him for years. So I'm frigging twenty eight

1133
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:05,360
or whatever, thirty, you know, the youngest neophyt in the group,

1134
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:09,559
and we all fly to Baltimore and we meet up

1135
01:05:09,559 --> 01:05:11,599
with Richard Gear. So here are the two Richard Gears

1136
01:05:11,599 --> 01:05:14,800
stories of meeting him at that okay, in that weekend.

1137
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,400
The first is we're you know, we're in Baltimore. It's

1138
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,280
not exactly Hollywood, it's not New York. We're at a

1139
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,199
you know, we're all meeting for brunch at a Hilton

1140
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,360
or something, and we're in like a little conference room

1141
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,000
justuse I got one for like, you know, ten people

1142
01:05:27,119 --> 01:05:29,639
around a round table and they're gonna serve us breakfast

1143
01:05:29,639 --> 01:05:33,679
and we're gonna talk. So we're in Baltimore and this

1144
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:37,039
the woman she probably you know, thirty five. She comes in.

1145
01:05:37,159 --> 01:05:41,239
She's wearing the the Hilton costume whatever it is, and

1146
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:45,199
she's taking orders and she suddenly realizes, what the fuck

1147
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:51,000
that's Richard Gear. So so she's like, oh, oh my goodness.

1148
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,320
So she's going around taking orders and she takes my order,

1149
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,280
and then she she gets over to Richard and he's

1150
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:01,840
like leaning over the Kilton brunch menu like it's the

1151
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:06,880
Dead Sea scrolls, you know, and he's like and she

1152
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:08,360
kind of comes up to him, and he's like, oh,

1153
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:11,559
oh uh, skip me, skip me, and she like takes

1154
01:06:11,559 --> 01:06:14,559
a step past, and then she turns back and says, well,

1155
01:06:14,599 --> 01:06:21,719
I would never skip you, mister Gear. And everyone at

1156
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:27,480
the table is like, oh god, that's and Richard Gear

1157
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,039
like takes a beat, puts down that mate, looks up

1158
01:06:31,079 --> 01:06:35,400
at her, leans back, just pulls her into the biggest hug,

1159
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:42,760
just the most gallant, charming. Everyone just breathes a sigh

1160
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:47,360
of relief, like, oh thank god, sweetest moment, and I

1161
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,480
just he won me over. I'm like this, okay, thank you.

1162
01:06:50,639 --> 01:06:53,559
This is a good guy. And she loved it. This

1163
01:06:53,599 --> 01:06:55,960
is I'm sure a story she's told more than I

1164
01:06:56,039 --> 01:06:59,480
have in her life. And it was just a beautiful moment.

1165
01:06:59,599 --> 01:07:01,960
So so we have our little meeting and then it's like, okay,

1166
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,480
now now so that was preliminary. Now tonight we're all

1167
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,559
going out to dinner. So now it's you know, the

1168
01:07:07,039 --> 01:07:10,639
night you know, there's booze. So we're at some restaurant

1169
01:07:10,639 --> 01:07:13,960
in the Baltimore Harbor and we're at a you know,

1170
01:07:14,039 --> 01:07:16,599
sort of a longish table again about ten people. I'm

1171
01:07:16,639 --> 01:07:19,159
at one end and Richard Gears at the other end,

1172
01:07:19,239 --> 01:07:21,199
so you know, we're facing each other like you know,

1173
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:27,119
Bond and Blowfeld or something, and and everyone's talking and

1174
01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:29,159
then the script comes up. And then suddenly people are

1175
01:07:29,199 --> 01:07:33,039
just having like this weird, supernatural conversation and we're talking

1176
01:07:33,039 --> 01:07:35,960
about the script and and someone turns to me and

1177
01:07:36,119 --> 01:07:38,800
asks me something and I'm like, well, that's the whole

1178
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,440
point of the movie, and I know Gears like like

1179
01:07:43,599 --> 01:07:45,920
his eyes are on me, but I'm talking like off

1180
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:47,960
to the side to somebody else. But I'm like, I'm

1181
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,639
basically talking to him, and I can see. And that's

1182
01:07:50,679 --> 01:07:53,840
the whole theme of the movie is that you can

1183
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:58,719
search for answers, you can look for answers, but at

1184
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,159
you know, in this world, in this life, we will

1185
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:08,079
never get those answers. And in my memory, he like

1186
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:11,320
slams his hands down on the table and stands up

1187
01:08:11,679 --> 01:08:16,119
and says, that's where you're wrong, because I think you

1188
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:26,760
can like the hell. And I'm like, oh, right, right,

1189
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:31,039
because the whole Dali Lama, the Buddhism and the Godhead

1190
01:08:31,079 --> 01:08:33,640
and the Nirvana, and there is a way in his

1191
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:40,640
philosophy that you can transcend and you can have elevated

1192
01:08:41,079 --> 01:08:44,720
sort of knowledge of the inner workings of the universe.

1193
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:51,119
And I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, but not in this movie.

1194
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:55,119
So we're clear on that, right, you're playing a character.

1195
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:59,000
I didn't say anything, but anyway, as it turns out, luckily,

1196
01:08:59,079 --> 01:09:01,880
it was just we'd all too much wine. So anyway,

1197
01:09:02,079 --> 01:09:03,439
the only movie got made. Whatever.

1198
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I might say.

1199
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,319
Speaker 3: One of my favorite lines in the whole movie is

1200
01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:12,800
said by Alan Bates, goes exactly what. It goes along

1201
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:15,560
the lines of you noticed them, and they noticed that

1202
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,079
you noticed them, and that was like, that gave me chills.

1203
01:09:18,119 --> 01:09:19,199
And I heard that line and he was the way

1204
01:09:19,199 --> 01:09:20,920
it was delivered as well. It was just really good.

1205
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,720
It's just that sense of you are being watched. You know,

1206
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:26,199
they know what's going on, you don't. You're not going

1207
01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:29,520
to find out that they're watching you because you saw them.

1208
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 2: I think that's true for everyone except Steve. No one

1209
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:38,199
has seemed to notice. Steve has noticed them.

1210
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:42,159
Speaker 4: Yeah. We hang out stands there in the museum going hello,

1211
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:44,000
anyone want to buy me a beer?

1212
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,159
Speaker 1: Look, I'm an altra terrestrial, you know, I'm just masturbating

1213
01:09:48,159 --> 01:09:48,960
as human, that's all.

1214
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,159
Speaker 4: Hey, Andy, I gotta call it out. You know. Mark

1215
01:09:55,279 --> 01:09:59,600
works with two writers, Ernest Morero and Lewis Lewis Clark,

1216
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:01,600
and they were they were on set. I was not

1217
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:04,039
on set. I was not part of the actual making

1218
01:10:04,119 --> 01:10:07,359
of the movie, but they are part of his creative team.

1219
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,359
And some of the most memorable lines from the movie

1220
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:12,840
are theirs. And that's one of them, and it's a

1221
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:17,079
beautiful It's a line I wish I had written because

1222
01:10:17,079 --> 01:10:19,520
they and that's what I'm so thankful for is that

1223
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,920
is that everyone making the movie was making the same

1224
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:28,119
movie and was sort of plugged into that same you

1225
01:10:28,119 --> 01:10:32,439
know vein of yes, it's like how do we how

1226
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:36,199
do we reckon with the inexplicable? And it's a perfect line.

1227
01:10:36,279 --> 01:10:40,159
I love it. So yeah, it's just just another way

1228
01:10:40,319 --> 01:10:43,960
in which everything's sort of gotten better. I mean, it's

1229
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,560
a I talk about it a lot, but there's a

1230
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,920
scene in the movie that people love. It's it's almost

1231
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,199
it's a very brief, but it's when Richard gear is

1232
01:10:53,239 --> 01:10:55,199
in bed and he's sort of like, you know, thinking

1233
01:10:55,199 --> 01:10:58,920
about everything he's been through, and he's like he can't sleep,

1234
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,199
and he turns over, and as he turns over, his wife,

1235
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:04,880
his dead wife is in bedneck and it's just this

1236
01:11:05,359 --> 01:11:10,039
The whole audience just I mean, everyone jumps. It's a

1237
01:11:10,119 --> 01:11:15,600
it's a perfect jump scare, not in the script. So

1238
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:19,319
in this case, it was one of the producers, Gary Lukesey,

1239
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:26,239
who had been seeing cut sequences from the dailies and

1240
01:11:26,239 --> 01:11:28,239
and he's on set and like a good producer, he's

1241
01:11:28,279 --> 01:11:31,159
talking to Mark and he's like you know, everything is

1242
01:11:31,359 --> 01:11:35,319
like everything's working, it's all good, but but pacing wise,

1243
01:11:35,359 --> 01:11:38,479
I almost feel like we kind of need a zoo,

1244
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:42,399
we need a jolt and maroxigin. And he's like, yeah,

1245
01:11:42,399 --> 01:11:44,439
we need like a like a Johnt Like we don't

1246
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,199
want a cat jumping out, but we need a cat scare,

1247
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:50,000
you know, we need a thing. And it's like, what

1248
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,439
what is our version of a jump scare in Mothmann prophecies?

1249
01:11:54,279 --> 01:11:56,560
And and I think between them or maybe it was

1250
01:11:56,640 --> 01:12:00,000
Mark and and and and his uh and Ernest and Lewis,

1251
01:12:00,119 --> 01:12:03,560
but they they were like what about this? And that

1252
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:05,880
camera move where it just sort of like sort of

1253
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:09,560
pushes up over him as he turns and reveals her

1254
01:12:10,319 --> 01:12:14,720
is so effective. I mean that's very Mark Pellington. And

1255
01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:18,000
they came up with it, and that's the sort of

1256
01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:20,399
thing that if you would if I had been on set,

1257
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,479
I would have been like, no, don't do it. I

1258
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:25,880
wrote this to be a certain way. But here's what

1259
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:32,479
I learned. I'm writing a reading experience, but they're making

1260
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:36,720
a movie, and they know that they're making a group

1261
01:12:37,159 --> 01:12:40,520
viewing experience and that it has to be paced a

1262
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:44,560
little differently, and it has to be orchestrated toward that

1263
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:53,760
consumption experience basically, And so when I saw it, I'm like, oh, okay,

1264
01:12:54,279 --> 01:12:57,560
I get what they're doing. Okay, they were right, Okay, good,

1265
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,439
I'm glad they did it, you know. But it's fascinating

1266
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:03,920
and it's a learning experience, and I feel so lucky

1267
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:07,359
to have had that opportunity to not only on the

1268
01:13:07,359 --> 01:13:10,319
one hand, have the material respected so much, and on

1269
01:13:10,359 --> 01:13:12,960
the other hand, have it elevated to such a degree.

1270
01:13:13,039 --> 01:13:15,039
So again I hit the lottery.

1271
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:17,640
Speaker 1: And also at at the Mothman Museum, we have a

1272
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:21,680
whole wall full of props from the movie that Jeff

1273
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:26,239
Wansley got ahold of, including the illustrations that Debra Messing's

1274
01:13:26,319 --> 01:13:29,880
character is supposed to be illustrating. I mean, that's just

1275
01:13:30,039 --> 01:13:33,960
it's framed and everything very cool. We even Richard have

1276
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:42,479
the watch and the chapstick and it's framed a little glass.

1277
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,600
Speaker 4: Well, let me tell you, I've got it too.

1278
01:13:46,079 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 1: Okay. I don't know if it was the original chapstick

1279
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:52,119
from the movie, but it looks good.

1280
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:53,079
Speaker 4: The original.

1281
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:54,520
Speaker 1: Is that the original?

1282
01:13:56,199 --> 01:14:02,199
Speaker 4: I've never used it until No, this is just my okay, no,

1283
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:05,000
but that's the joke, is that is that when when

1284
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:07,800
I wrote that scene, I'm like, Okay, so it's got

1285
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:10,039
to be it's got to be something that no one

1286
01:14:10,079 --> 01:14:11,560
in the world knows. It's got to be like, I

1287
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:13,079
know what's in your pocket and I can't just be

1288
01:14:13,159 --> 01:14:16,439
car keys. And I'm like, well, in my pocket is

1289
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:19,279
gonna be chapstick, So I'm gonna have it. And I

1290
01:14:19,359 --> 01:14:22,159
did this really stupid thing in this script. I had

1291
01:14:22,399 --> 01:14:27,119
the voice on the phone go cream Stick because I'm like, well,

1292
01:14:27,279 --> 01:14:30,279
it won't know what chapstick is. It'll just like be

1293
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:32,439
trying to figure it out, but it'll be right, but

1294
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:35,039
it'll be off. Because that was my whole take was

1295
01:14:35,039 --> 01:14:38,560
that was that what makes these things scary is that

1296
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:46,840
they're they're trying to act like they get people. Hey everyone, Hi,

1297
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,720
I'm Andrew Cold. How are you? You know? It's like, ah,

1298
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,199
you're trying to be human, but it's the Uncanny Valley

1299
01:14:53,239 --> 01:14:56,640
You're terrifying. Absolutely, So I was trying to do that

1300
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:59,119
and it didn't sell, and so then they just said

1301
01:14:59,199 --> 01:15:02,279
Chapstick and I sort of got Chapstick Show. The only

1302
01:15:02,279 --> 01:15:06,800
two movies that have correctly used Chapstick Mothman Prophecies and

1303
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,319
Napoleon Dynamite.

1304
01:15:12,399 --> 01:15:15,520
Speaker 1: Very good. Now we have to talk a little bit

1305
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:19,600
about Gray Barker because that podcast you're talking about the

1306
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:21,199
Flying Saucers and the Three Men.

1307
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:25,199
Speaker 4: And uh wait, no, no, they knew too much about it.

1308
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:25,880
That's right.

1309
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:30,319
Speaker 1: That was Bender's Benders book that was kind of like

1310
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:35,359
very bad amazing stories pulp writing. But anyway, of course,

1311
01:15:35,399 --> 01:15:38,199
Albert Bender was the one of the first people that

1312
01:15:38,279 --> 01:15:40,479
is supposed to encounter the Men in black and been

1313
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:44,399
silenced and he folded up his group and so forth.

1314
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,760
But the uh, they knew too much about Flying Saucers.

1315
01:15:49,079 --> 01:15:53,319
John Keel that there are several uh lectures by him

1316
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:55,960
that are you can find online. And also he was

1317
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:59,359
interviewed at the two thousand and three Mothman Festival with

1318
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:02,560
the unvail the Mothmand statue for the first time. It's

1319
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,920
very cool because you know he was he was covered

1320
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,840
on CBS Sunday morning and you see him standing there

1321
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:09,880
in his white suit and the and the and the

1322
01:16:10,319 --> 01:16:14,000
cover comes off the uh the uh the statue. But

1323
01:16:14,399 --> 01:16:17,119
uh he uh uh Okay, where.

1324
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:17,560
Speaker 4: Was I going with this?

1325
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,239
Speaker 1: I had a great point, But okay, I know, I

1326
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:22,800
know when he was interviewed he said. The guy was

1327
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:25,840
interviewing him, Uh, you know, was was kind of into Barker,

1328
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:27,640
and he said he was said, you have to be

1329
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:30,479
very careful with Greg Barker. He said that when he

1330
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:32,960
was writing The Three Men at the UH, they knew

1331
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:35,720
too much about flying saucers. He got about halfway through

1332
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:37,920
being serious and then he just kind of threw up

1333
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:42,279
his hands and started making it up. In fact, one

1334
01:16:42,279 --> 01:16:44,600
of the one of the guys in there, uh lives

1335
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,800
in the town I used to live, John Sherwood. He

1336
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,039
was just a young kid. He wrote. He wanted to

1337
01:16:50,039 --> 01:16:52,520
write a book on the uh, the UFO flap in

1338
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,800
Michigan in sixty six, you know, the swamp gas stuff

1339
01:16:55,359 --> 01:16:59,239
and uh he uh and and I guess Greg Barker said, Hey,

1340
01:16:59,239 --> 01:17:01,560
if you pretend to be this person that was silenced

1341
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:03,920
by the Man of Black, I'll publish your book. So

1342
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:06,359
he said, okay. Then later on in the nineties he

1343
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:08,720
came forward and said, okay, I was a young kid,

1344
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:09,640
and you know it.

1345
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:10,359
Speaker 4: Was just a hoax.

1346
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:13,039
Speaker 1: And so that part of the they knew too much

1347
01:17:13,039 --> 01:17:14,840
about flying saucers is a hoax.

1348
01:17:15,359 --> 01:17:18,399
Speaker 4: So well, no, which guy I mean it wasn't Bender

1349
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:18,840
was it.

1350
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:21,399
Speaker 1: No, no, no, not bender. It was know that it

1351
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:23,640
was supposedly some kind of a scientist or whatever. I'd

1352
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:25,720
have to go through the book and try and figure

1353
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:26,720
it out, but I don't.

1354
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 4: Know what it was.

1355
01:17:30,039 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 1: But anyway, I have to tell you that in nineteen

1356
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:37,479
seventy six I attended the Meufhon Symposium. This is ten

1357
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:41,319
years after the swamp Gas fiasco. Doctor Heinik is there,

1358
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:44,960
long separated from Project Blue Book, had started the Center

1359
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:47,800
for Your Host Studies. And he's speak he's speaking there

1360
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,640
and the name of his talk is Swamp Gas plus

1361
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:54,279
ten and counting. So he reflects on those days, you know,

1362
01:17:54,319 --> 01:17:56,600
the mistakes he made and so forth, and what he

1363
01:17:56,680 --> 01:18:00,039
was doing presently. But Gray Barker was there. Now of

1364
01:18:00,079 --> 01:18:02,279
course they wouldn't let him speak, but he was there

1365
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:05,520
with an armful of his magazine. So he was handing

1366
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:08,840
out and the you know, the Socearian and that the

1367
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:13,920
cover had vegetable man on it attacking somebody. This is

1368
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:17,039
typical Barker. So I, you know, I kind of cornered him.

1369
01:18:17,079 --> 01:18:19,960
My friend of mine had met him years before at

1370
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:24,199
the nineteen sixty seven congressome scientific ufologist. Get a load

1371
01:18:24,239 --> 01:18:27,039
of that at the Commodore Hotel in New York City.

1372
01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:29,359
It was James Moseley had run that, you know, the

1373
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:32,520
editor of Saucer News anyway, so I think, oh Man

1374
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:34,960
Grave workers, so I kind of like interviewed him. I

1375
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:38,199
asked him all kinds of questions. And I asked him

1376
01:18:38,199 --> 01:18:41,840
about his book, The Silver Bridge, you know, because I

1377
01:18:42,159 --> 01:18:44,199
didn't have a copy of it, and I had heard

1378
01:18:44,239 --> 01:18:46,600
that some people were saying, oh, John Keele just ripped

1379
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:48,560
off Gray Barker, and I didn't buy it. So I

1380
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:50,920
asked him. I said, well, you know, some people said

1381
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:54,199
that that John Keele kind of borrowed, you know, stuff

1382
01:18:54,279 --> 01:18:58,319
from your book. And he said, he's this super tall guy,

1383
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:02,239
long hair. I mean, I've only seen photographs of him

1384
01:19:02,239 --> 01:19:07,000
with very close cropt hair, very thick glasses. And he says, oh,

1385
01:19:07,119 --> 01:19:09,560
you know, none of us like to get our literary

1386
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,239
toes stepped on. But I'm sure John Keele wrote his

1387
01:19:12,279 --> 01:19:15,159
own book. And so it was just it was just

1388
01:19:15,199 --> 01:19:16,960
it was so cool. I asked him about some of

1389
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:20,119
his publications, and uh and John Keel, and one of

1390
01:19:20,119 --> 01:19:23,960
his interviews said that when Barker wrote The Silver Bridge,

1391
01:19:24,159 --> 01:19:26,880
the chapter in which John Keel is there he said,

1392
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:29,920
Barker got it all wrong. So Keel had to rewrite

1393
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,359
that chapter. So Keel actually wrote part of the Silver Bridge,

1394
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:36,119
the chapter that dealt with him. So that's my that's

1395
01:19:36,119 --> 01:19:40,119
my Gray Barker story.

1396
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 4: You know which is I mean, and you you're the

1397
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:47,760
guy who knows because you met him. That's definitely the feeling,

1398
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:51,760
the impression that I get of of what Gray Barker was.

1399
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:57,640
I think he started out briefly being super super interested.

1400
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:02,960
I think if I had to, you know, reconstruct reality,

1401
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:09,319
I think that the Bender story was true to a

1402
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:13,720
large extent that someone did or some people did come

1403
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,119
to him and say stop it. I mean, I think

1404
01:20:17,119 --> 01:20:21,840
we've learned enough about you know, government disinformation to believe

1405
01:20:22,039 --> 01:20:27,600
that that is within you know, well within the realm

1406
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:33,199
of possibility. But here's the weird thing, and and again

1407
01:20:33,239 --> 01:20:36,000
it's all throughout the history of UFOs. The people who

1408
01:20:36,039 --> 01:20:39,079
get really into it, you can get a little like

1409
01:20:39,199 --> 01:20:41,680
drunk on the stuff, and you can get a little

1410
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:45,920
freaked out, and paranoias are made, not born. And then

1411
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,720
you add to that the gasoline or the I guess

1412
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:54,279
in this case, the the the match of someone in

1413
01:20:54,319 --> 01:20:57,000
real life coming to you and going. You need to

1414
01:20:57,079 --> 01:21:01,000
stop it, and man, you will start spinning and you'll

1415
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:06,640
never stop. And I don't think people who are interested

1416
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:11,159
in this area are are any more psychologically unstable than

1417
01:21:11,199 --> 01:21:16,319
anyone else, but it is kind of crazy making when

1418
01:21:16,359 --> 01:21:20,920
you really think about this stuff a lot. I mean,

1419
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:24,800
the only thing that you know, my thirty years of

1420
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,920
psychic research have given to me is the hope that

1421
01:21:30,039 --> 01:21:33,680
I never experience any of it. And I used to

1422
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:35,119
be one of those guys who was like, I want

1423
01:21:35,159 --> 01:21:37,359
to stay at the Haunted hotel and I want to

1424
01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:40,840
see the thing and hear the EVP. And now I'm like,

1425
01:21:41,399 --> 01:21:42,279
I don't want any of it.

1426
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:45,800
Speaker 2: So you've never had even a little tiny bit of

1427
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:46,760
an experience.

1428
01:21:48,159 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 4: I had a little bit of a precognition, like and

1429
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:56,680
not even cool, not even like, no, the blimp is exploding,

1430
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:02,479
Like literally it was I dreamed something. In the next

1431
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:06,560
day it happened, and what happened was a meaningless encounter

1432
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:10,319
at work, and I'm like, Okay, that happened, and here's

1433
01:22:10,319 --> 01:22:12,079
the weird thing. Is one of those things where it's like, well,

1434
01:22:12,119 --> 01:22:16,520
the completely impossible thing just happened. Okay, it has gone

1435
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:19,000
with your life, you know, it's like, what are you

1436
01:22:19,039 --> 01:22:26,800
going to do? It's the subjective experiences, And man, hats

1437
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:29,399
off in respect to anyone who comes forward with this stuff,

1438
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:34,159
because it is so subjective and there really is no

1439
01:22:34,319 --> 01:22:38,079
reward other than just logging in and going, hey, that

1440
01:22:38,119 --> 01:22:41,359
thing everyone's talking about happened to me too. So add

1441
01:22:41,359 --> 01:22:43,920
my name to your petition of people who have been

1442
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:49,399
taking a board to craft and you know whatever, there's

1443
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:52,479
not a lot of reward for it, and there aren't answers.

1444
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:54,840
My god, I look at Whitley Strieber. No one has

1445
01:22:55,600 --> 01:23:01,359
no greater intellect an abstract thinker has ever. I love

1446
01:23:01,399 --> 01:23:04,199
your cat. I'm sorry, I'm looking at Susie's cat right now.

1447
01:23:04,239 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 2: And it's his name is Alistair, Polly.

1448
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:15,319
Speaker 4: Alistair. Oh my god, you're a hero. Anyway, Whitley Streeber

1449
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:21,000
has spent what forty years now doing simultaneously trying to

1450
01:23:21,039 --> 01:23:25,199
cleep a keep a clear head, and also figure out

1451
01:23:25,239 --> 01:23:28,760
the phenomenon. And I don't know. I've read some of

1452
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:31,319
his recent stuff and I find it fascinating, but I

1453
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:34,479
don't know that he is better for the experience. I

1454
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:35,239
gotta be honest.

1455
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:39,039
Speaker 1: Right now, John Keel came to your house and you

1456
01:23:39,119 --> 01:23:40,319
served him dinner, right.

1457
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 4: Yes, My wife, my ex wife wife at the time,

1458
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:49,880
was under strict I'm like, okay, look, he doesn't, he can't.

1459
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:53,880
It's got to be low sugar. He's on a low

1460
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:56,640
sugar diet. And it's like, okay, well, we'll just keep

1461
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:58,920
it simple. We'll make pasta, but we will use a

1462
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:01,560
tomato sauce that doesn't a lot of sugar. And it

1463
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,239
was fairly simple. But it was like, oh my god,

1464
01:24:04,279 --> 01:24:07,880
this guy's coming to my house. It was it was

1465
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:11,520
my like literally, you you know, Paul McCartney could have

1466
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:14,159
shown up and it would not have freaked me out

1467
01:24:14,199 --> 01:24:18,279
more than Keel is coming in the house. And yeah,

1468
01:24:18,319 --> 01:24:19,800
he came. He came to the house. And I had

1469
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,079
little kids at the time, and I'll never forget my son,

1470
01:24:22,319 --> 01:24:25,199
My you know, two year old Spencer just jumping up

1471
01:24:25,239 --> 01:24:27,640
and down in his diaper on a chair, going drunk

1472
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:29,680
keel drunk keel, drunk keel, drunk keel.

1473
01:24:31,359 --> 01:24:35,239
Speaker 1: What didn't he ask him some questions about uh, oh,

1474
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:36,399
give idea.

1475
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:39,399
Speaker 4: Yeah. Then Owen Owen came up to Owen, who was

1476
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:41,840
like four at the time, He's like, ah, messed Keel.

1477
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:49,359
Who would win and a fight between a dog and

1478
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:53,279
a bear. And he's like, he's like my kids in

1479
01:24:53,319 --> 01:24:58,520
his underwear leaning against John Keel's knee. Kids, he doesn't

1480
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,199
have grandkids, like this gotta be weird than Bigfoot for

1481
01:25:01,279 --> 01:25:10,760
him as a puck watchee in the house, he was great.

1482
01:25:11,359 --> 01:25:15,119
Keel was great. He's like, well, he's like, you'd think

1483
01:25:15,199 --> 01:25:18,159
the bear would have the advantage. But the thing is,

1484
01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:22,840
if a dog is protecting his master, he'll never stop fighting.

1485
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:25,760
And of course we had dogs. There were dogs wandering

1486
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:28,520
around the room as he's telling the story, which is

1487
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:30,079
such and it was such a great thing to say

1488
01:25:30,159 --> 01:25:33,199
to a kid, you know. And I'm like, god, Owen,

1489
01:25:33,239 --> 01:25:35,439
you're so lucky, you know, and are you taking that

1490
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:38,279
into your heart? And of course Owen being Owen was

1491
01:25:38,359 --> 01:25:44,399
just like, what about a dog and a shark? And

1492
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:48,359
Keels like, depends on how well the dog can swim?

1493
01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:51,399
Move this along? You can? Is he bed time for

1494
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:57,439
the kids? Maybe he was so patient and he was

1495
01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:01,079
so great, And of course it's so funny. I remember

1496
01:26:01,119 --> 01:26:03,319
it so clearly and it is part of what I

1497
01:26:03,479 --> 01:26:10,199
consider modern history. But it was nineteen ninety nine, maybe

1498
01:26:10,199 --> 01:26:12,920
two thousand. There was no iPhone. I didn't have a

1499
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:18,199
video recorder. I should have been documenting this night. Beyond

1500
01:26:18,239 --> 01:26:22,119
I have no photographs. I have no I got nothing.

1501
01:26:22,159 --> 01:26:27,079
I'm like, literally five years later I could have recorded everything,

1502
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:31,479
and it's like like I have no pictures of any

1503
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:36,640
part of my life before two thousand and eight, and

1504
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:39,840
now I have sixty million pictures.

1505
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 1: Okay, I have to ask. I read somewhere that I

1506
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:48,680
think you and Pennington wanted to honor. Now, there were

1507
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:50,920
forty six people that died on the bridge that night,

1508
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:56,840
but the powers that were wanted to reduce it to

1509
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:59,680
something like twelve people dying on the bridge. A that

1510
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:02,079
was there some kind of a weird negotiation that you know,

1511
01:27:02,119 --> 01:27:04,880
of going back and forth to get to the actual number.

1512
01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:09,000
Speaker 4: No, I will tell you what happened, because I have.

1513
01:27:09,119 --> 01:27:13,520
The answer is very There is an answer, and the

1514
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:18,159
answer is that when I when I was writing the script,

1515
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:22,079
I purposely updated the timeframe. I did not place it

1516
01:27:22,119 --> 01:27:24,720
in the sixties. I wanted it to be modern day

1517
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:30,840
at that time, which was late nineties. And the reason

1518
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:32,720
I wanted to do this is that I didn't want

1519
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:35,680
it to feel like, oh, this is some weird period

1520
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:38,800
piece about back when people believe in UFOs. I wanted

1521
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:42,000
to sort of take it out of its literal context

1522
01:27:42,039 --> 01:27:46,359
and make it more about this is a movie about

1523
01:27:46,399 --> 01:27:49,520
how people experience mysterious phenomenon and this is what they

1524
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:54,199
really go through. And I'm using the point pleasant and

1525
01:27:54,319 --> 01:27:58,960
Mothman as a way to illustrate a broader thing. So

1526
01:27:59,039 --> 01:28:02,479
I'm not writing I'm writing about a snowstorm, but I'm

1527
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:05,800
not writing about the snowstorm of nineteen sixty six in

1528
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:10,600
some town. I'm writing about here's what happens in a snowstorm.

1529
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:13,680
Here are the things a person will go through, as

1530
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:17,359
it were. When I got to that point, I realized

1531
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,279
this is not a literal retelling of his book, nor

1532
01:28:20,319 --> 01:28:22,640
is it a literal retelling of reality. I'm not using

1533
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:24,760
those characters. I'm not using the ones whose streak you

1534
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:27,920
know you live on. I Mary Hyer was never a

1535
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:30,399
part of the book. I'm like, I need to make

1536
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:33,239
it very clear that while it is based on that,

1537
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:35,840
it is not a retelling of real events, because, as

1538
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:37,960
Keel pointed out, there's still people living in the town

1539
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:42,000
who lost loved ones in that tragedy. And I'm like,

1540
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:46,000
so weirdly, I now have to write a sort of

1541
01:28:46,159 --> 01:28:51,720
on screen crawl coda that misstates the facts intentionally. So

1542
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:55,640
I intentionally, I'm like, I can't end this movie and

1543
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:59,119
then go forty two B and then realistically recount the

1544
01:28:59,119 --> 01:29:03,239
people who died in a way that's almost more insulting

1545
01:29:03,279 --> 01:29:05,920
to their memory. So I'm just going to go, here's

1546
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,199
how many people died in this retelling, you know, of

1547
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,199
if I wrote a movie about Gettysburg, maybe I would

1548
01:29:12,239 --> 01:29:14,680
knock go out of my way to get the exact number.

1549
01:29:14,880 --> 01:29:18,560
I'd go it was twelve thousand or whatever. But I said,

1550
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:21,319
here's how many people died. And the Mothman has been

1551
01:29:21,359 --> 01:29:25,359
seen then never again in Point Pleasant, but has been

1552
01:29:25,399 --> 01:29:29,319
seen other places. Because again, I just wanted to my

1553
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:35,800
point with the movie was this sort of shit happens, okay,

1554
01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:39,640
and we're not closing the book on this at the end.

1555
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:45,560
It goes on. Weird stuff goes on, and so really

1556
01:29:46,119 --> 01:29:49,479
the studio totally behind everything I wanted to do. The

1557
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:53,239
only thing they did, the only note they had, and

1558
01:29:53,279 --> 01:29:55,720
I think it was a good one, was they said

1559
01:29:57,039 --> 01:30:00,000
in my script, they said, take all the UFO stuff

1560
01:30:00,079 --> 01:30:05,640
out and take every reference to UFOs out, because UFOs

1561
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:08,119
are things that movies have been made about, and people

1562
01:30:08,159 --> 01:30:11,720
have a certain believe when they hear UFO, they immediately

1563
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:15,720
slot into an opinion. And we'd rather they not that.

1564
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:18,520
We'd rather they approach everything that happens in this movie

1565
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,439
as if it is sort of new stuff that they

1566
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:25,239
haven't formed an opinion on. And I thought that was

1567
01:30:25,239 --> 01:30:27,680
a great idea, and so I went through and took

1568
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:32,359
out I don't think the word UFO except a character saying,

1569
01:30:32,399 --> 01:30:34,479
you know, hey, sometimes people see UFOs and now they

1570
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:39,439
see Mothman to differentiate. But otherwise the UFO phenomenon, all

1571
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:42,840
the UFO stuff was was sort of taken out of

1572
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:43,319
the movie.

1573
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 1: And if people you know the deluxe edition, some of

1574
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:51,520
the deleted scenes you can see when there was an

1575
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:56,600
attempt to get more of the book in the movie,

1576
01:30:57,159 --> 01:30:59,640
saying where Richard Jerry goes into a motel that he

1577
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:01,840
didn't plan on going and all those notes are there,

1578
01:31:02,119 --> 01:31:04,760
and the scene where there's no special effects where they're

1579
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:06,880
standing on the ridge and they're seeing the strange lights

1580
01:31:07,119 --> 01:31:09,520
going through the color spectrum like Keel talked about in

1581
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:13,039
the book, So you know, there was a there was really,

1582
01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:15,800
you know, an attempt to get more of the book

1583
01:31:16,039 --> 01:31:18,640
I was. I remember being a little disappointed at first

1584
01:31:19,039 --> 01:31:21,800
that there that the classic keel men and black stuff

1585
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:24,600
wasn't in it. But you know, they'd already had the

1586
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:30,079
silly men in black slapstick movie. There's no way, you

1587
01:31:30,119 --> 01:31:33,840
know that the the the parallels would have been laughable.

1588
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:38,640
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, if that's totally correct, it did sort of and

1589
01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:41,560
and that stuff would have been difficult to fold in

1590
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:44,439
any way, you know. The the deleted scenes were part

1591
01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:47,840
of the original script that that were Ultimately it was like, okay,

1592
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:50,680
well we're cutting for time, and we're just right things

1593
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:54,079
we're going to do. But but there was a there

1594
01:31:54,119 --> 01:31:57,239
was a scene that's in the book that I really loved,

1595
01:31:57,319 --> 01:32:01,760
and I totally get why was not ever even filmed.

1596
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:06,039
But it was a It was a woman in town

1597
01:32:06,319 --> 01:32:09,319
who has had weird stuff happening in her house. So

1598
01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:11,720
Keil goes to her house and it's this friendly old

1599
01:32:11,840 --> 01:32:14,359
lady and you know, you got to picture Betty White,

1600
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:17,760
you know, and she's like, oh, hello, come in, come in,

1601
01:32:18,159 --> 01:32:21,840
you know, and she's nervous and making tea and trying

1602
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:25,119
to be you know, welcome the person from the big

1603
01:32:25,159 --> 01:32:28,199
city of New York. Into her humble, little West Virginia

1604
01:32:28,279 --> 01:32:33,119
home and he's like, so, what's going on. She's like, well,

1605
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:35,399
I don't even know how to explain it. It's ridiculous.

1606
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:38,880
And as they're talking, a book flies off the bookshelf

1607
01:32:39,279 --> 01:32:44,039
and just hits the table and he looks over and

1608
01:32:44,079 --> 01:32:50,399
she's like, you like more cream? And then the lamp

1609
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:52,880
falls over and then another book flies out in lands

1610
01:32:53,159 --> 01:32:56,199
and he's like and she's like, I can get you.

1611
01:32:56,319 --> 01:32:58,880
I'm making some scones. Let me go get you some scones.

1612
01:32:58,920 --> 01:33:01,439
And she's so embarrassed that the Poulter guyst is acting

1613
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:06,439
up in front of the guest, and I just loved it.

1614
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,399
I'm like this, there's something about this that is just

1615
01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:12,279
so odd. I've never seen it, but a person who's

1616
01:33:12,319 --> 01:33:17,560
embarrassed by the paranormal phenomenon in their house. And it

1617
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:20,680
was just tonally. It just did not fit with anything else.

1618
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:24,840
And so one day somewhere maybe but yeah, they took

1619
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:27,000
that out. But I was just I love that scene,

1620
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:28,119
you know.

1621
01:33:28,319 --> 01:33:30,359
Speaker 1: I talked to a survivor that went down on the

1622
01:33:30,399 --> 01:33:34,960
Silver Bridge, a sweat driver at the twenty seventeen Remembered ceremony,

1623
01:33:35,439 --> 01:33:37,119
and he was eighty eight when I talked to him,

1624
01:33:37,119 --> 01:33:39,399
which means he was thirty eight when he's crossing the

1625
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:46,760
bridge in his semi hauling material to Michigan, and it

1626
01:33:47,119 --> 01:33:49,479
described how the bridge went down in like three to

1627
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:53,279
forty seconds. He was forced through the passenger window right

1628
01:33:53,399 --> 01:33:57,239
arm first, and he went to the bottom of the river.

1629
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:00,960
The currents pulled him up, and a tug captain saw

1630
01:34:01,039 --> 01:34:03,520
him and pull him up out of the water. So

1631
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:05,880
his name was Bill Edmondson, and he's meant to he's

1632
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:09,359
in an article in the Mothman Museum. So that was

1633
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:11,680
that was bizarre. I mean, it was his experience with

1634
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:14,840
much more detailed than that. But you know, wow, you

1635
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:17,439
know you And of course in the movie Richard gear

1636
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:19,239
has a lot of time to try to warn people

1637
01:34:19,279 --> 01:34:22,000
about the bridge, you know, making it more more dramatic

1638
01:34:22,039 --> 01:34:24,760
and so forth. But in reality, it was like with

1639
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:26,359
thirty to forty seconds.

1640
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's amazing. I've never heard that story. That's incredible.

1641
01:34:30,319 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 1: Andy, you've been very quiet. Do you have any burning

1642
01:34:35,039 --> 01:34:37,279
questions before we move.

1643
01:34:37,119 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 3: On to Honus know, I've been listening very intently to

1644
01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:43,439
the whole thing. It's absolutely fascinating to talk about a

1645
01:34:43,479 --> 01:34:46,560
movie that we will enjoy toth we find very interesting.

1646
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:48,600
And I was going to say that this whole film

1647
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:50,520
about lights we were talking about a little while ago,

1648
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:52,640
that seems to be a very common feature of the

1649
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:56,319
initial beginnings or anything paranormal, should we say, begins with

1650
01:34:56,520 --> 01:34:59,000
anonymous lights, not just orss in the dust part. He

1651
01:34:59,079 --> 01:35:02,119
was getting photographs, actual light anomalies, and then they begin

1652
01:35:02,159 --> 01:35:04,920
to transform to other things. And the whole notion again

1653
01:35:05,119 --> 01:35:08,279
which was mentioned earlier, the idea that fundamentally we are energy.

1654
01:35:08,359 --> 01:35:10,840
You know, if you go down scientific quantum theory reached,

1655
01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:13,880
then we are just energy anyway. So these things could

1656
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:17,920
be energy manipulation as well as experiencing things as if

1657
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:20,720
they appear to be physical, solid objects, and then somethings

1658
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:23,399
start to change and behaving very strange ways that define

1659
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:26,560
normal physics. So I find all that absolutely fascinating.

1660
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:30,520
Speaker 4: Certainly. Yeah, there's a book I feel like running over

1661
01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:32,000
and getting it. I forget the author, but it's a

1662
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:38,119
book called light Forms that that sort of, and it's

1663
01:35:38,239 --> 01:35:40,760
a fairly recent book. So if you you know, go

1664
01:35:40,880 --> 01:35:45,800
on you know, bookshop dot org or something, you can

1665
01:35:45,840 --> 01:35:48,520
find it pretty quick. But yeah, it's called light Forms

1666
01:35:48,760 --> 01:35:51,920
and it's I think what we're getting now, and I

1667
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:55,079
love it, and I think Joshua Cutren's is sort of

1668
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:59,159
oh yeah. The main example is that is people coming

1669
01:35:59,239 --> 01:36:02,479
in now and study in like writing about the phenomenon

1670
01:36:03,079 --> 01:36:07,239
from from very unique angles, just like I'm gonna I'm

1671
01:36:07,239 --> 01:36:09,359
gonna sort of focus on this. I'm going to talk

1672
01:36:09,399 --> 01:36:12,600
about all of it through this one door that no

1673
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:16,199
one's walked through yet, which is what made his first book,

1674
01:36:16,199 --> 01:36:18,399
Trojan Feast so interesting. It's like, this is just a

1675
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:21,439
book of people who have eaten stuff that has been

1676
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:27,279
offered to them from supernatural beings, and it's like, whoa, Okay,

1677
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:30,479
all right, all right, okay. And then he was able

1678
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:33,319
to do you know, the Brimstone Deceit, and he's gone

1679
01:36:33,319 --> 01:36:36,680
on to write I mean, he's he's getting into like

1680
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:40,319
a Jacques Valet level or John Keel level of philosophy

1681
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:42,880
of this stuff. I haven't even caught up. I've got

1682
01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:45,039
the Ecology of Souls and I haven't even cracked it

1683
01:36:45,039 --> 01:36:45,479
open yet.

1684
01:36:45,520 --> 01:36:49,199
Speaker 1: And I'm like, God, have you read his Bigfoot books?

1685
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:51,479
Speaker 4: Yes? I read the first one. I don't have the

1686
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:53,600
second one. I want the second one. The second one

1687
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:56,319
is you know, ghost Bigfoot. That's what I want. And

1688
01:36:56,359 --> 01:36:58,760
I believe in ghost Bigfoot. I'm sorry and and and

1689
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:02,199
I don't. And here's the thing, because like it's fun

1690
01:37:02,199 --> 01:37:05,560
to talk about, you know, the parties I go do.

1691
01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:09,520
I like to ask people, so ghost Bigfoot or pause

1692
01:37:09,520 --> 01:37:14,199
and Claus Bigfoot, and then people just slowly back away.

1693
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:19,640
But but it's all of it. It's like there's no

1694
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:23,479
I keep discovering that the dividing lines just dissolve. It's

1695
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:26,760
all of it. It's ghost Bigfoot, it's flesh and blood Bigfoot,

1696
01:37:27,239 --> 01:37:33,840
it's it's you know, extraterrestrial biological entities. And it is complete,

1697
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:39,119
you know, sort of psychic, weird alien ghost it's But

1698
01:37:39,359 --> 01:37:43,560
but I think what is so challenging about it is

1699
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:46,920
that there is a non physical aspect to it. And

1700
01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:50,039
I don't know that there's anything else in our existence

1701
01:37:51,359 --> 01:37:55,239
that works as a metaphor for that. We don't. It's

1702
01:37:55,279 --> 01:37:57,159
hard for us to go, well, it's not physical in

1703
01:37:57,199 --> 01:37:59,800
the way that you know, those those other animals are not,

1704
01:38:00,439 --> 01:38:03,520
or this other aspect of our life is non physical,

1705
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:10,239
and then physical and then non physical again. There's no language,

1706
01:38:10,239 --> 01:38:14,760
and you immediately start sounding non scientific and then you

1707
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:17,880
know our debunker friends just sort of shake their head

1708
01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:20,199
sadly and then go to the manage of castle.

1709
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:24,039
Speaker 3: The fundamental problem we have is the notion of subject relations.

1710
01:38:24,279 --> 01:38:26,119
My backge in philosophy, so I've done a little bit

1711
01:38:26,159 --> 01:38:28,800
of research into this. But this notion that we have

1712
01:38:28,880 --> 01:38:32,119
are physical objects and we're subjects in an object world,

1713
01:38:32,359 --> 01:38:35,079
that they are fundamentally divided between the two. But that's

1714
01:38:35,119 --> 01:38:37,760
not the case. You know, our understanding of how physical

1715
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:40,840
matter works is based on Newtonian concepts are still very

1716
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:43,079
much in play, but when you get to the quantum level,

1717
01:38:43,279 --> 01:38:46,880
all that changes. It all becomes fundamentally different. And of

1718
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:48,960
course modern science is trying to bring the two together

1719
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:51,000
into a single, unified theory that is, now they're going

1720
01:38:51,039 --> 01:38:53,600
to work because they don't work like that. So that's

1721
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:55,520
often we get caught up in that whole notion those

1722
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:57,880
are physical things, it's either physical or it's not physical.

1723
01:38:58,159 --> 01:39:00,600
That there's a third state somewhere between the two. That

1724
01:39:01,039 --> 01:39:04,159
we experience phenomena outside of ourselves, but we should play

1725
01:39:04,359 --> 01:39:07,600
an integral part in that phenomenon, that experience that you know,

1726
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:11,159
it's not just happening and we're watching, we're engaged in

1727
01:39:11,199 --> 01:39:14,359
those experiences and those formal experiences I've been My mold

1728
01:39:14,359 --> 01:39:17,760
background is paranormal ghost investigation, but definitely forty years so

1729
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:20,520
I've seen all sorts of ghostly phenomena. But I've come

1730
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:23,319
to conclusion the very much that ufis goes pal It's

1731
01:39:23,399 --> 01:39:27,000
all the same thing, just manifesting differently depending on your

1732
01:39:27,039 --> 01:39:30,560
own interests and background. So you supplant ideas if you like,

1733
01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:33,439
go into what you're observing, and how you observe these things,

1734
01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:35,760
how you experience them is depend upon your own belief system.

1735
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:38,800
So that's why I think you can find cultures around

1736
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:41,439
the world having different backgrounds, different ideas, different religions, but

1737
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:44,159
can have similar kind of experiences, but for them they

1738
01:39:44,199 --> 01:39:47,159
appear different. We were talking about the fay earlier on

1739
01:39:47,239 --> 01:39:49,720
and faaries that kind of thing. Obviously, in over the

1740
01:39:49,840 --> 01:39:52,720
UK we've had thousands of years plus, two thousand years

1741
01:39:52,720 --> 01:39:54,960
plus of these sort of things, and they were always

1742
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:57,920
seen as coming from the ground, coming from other places,

1743
01:39:57,920 --> 01:40:00,960
physical places like coming out of hills, that kind of thing,

1744
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:02,960
whereas now you have a modern phenomena of lights in

1745
01:40:03,000 --> 01:40:05,159
the sky and UFOs coming down and things coming out

1746
01:40:05,199 --> 01:40:07,439
of those. So it's always been this notion that come

1747
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:11,159
from some elsewhere place, whether it's from underground or from

1748
01:40:11,159 --> 01:40:14,279
spaceships or whatever, there's always been that sense of otherness

1749
01:40:14,359 --> 01:40:16,960
has come in from outside somewhere. So that's why I

1750
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:21,279
find the ulter terrestrial explanation makes more sense because it

1751
01:40:21,319 --> 01:40:23,520
works in all levels of all forms things that go

1752
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:26,319
send UFOs and up into section. So I find that

1753
01:40:26,399 --> 01:40:29,520
very fascinated that we we're still caught in this Cartesian

1754
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:32,439
notion of the mind and body being somehow separate from

1755
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:36,520
each other. We're in natural fact, it's definitely not I'll stop.

1756
01:40:36,239 --> 01:40:38,960
Speaker 4: At that point. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think

1757
01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:42,600
that that is that's the final cul de sac that

1758
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:45,720
we get caught in And because materialism has been the

1759
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:51,159
dominant paradigm exactly that that it's sort of the presumption

1760
01:40:51,680 --> 01:40:56,439
is that, well, all questions are framed in that way,

1761
01:40:56,680 --> 01:41:01,279
and if you cannot demonstrate the consistent material aspect of

1762
01:41:01,319 --> 01:41:08,279
a thing, then it doesn't really exist. Like you can

1763
01:41:08,399 --> 01:41:12,720
talk about psychology because that is entirely subjective, and so

1764
01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:15,760
it's like that's fine, or you can talk about chemistry,

1765
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:21,760
which is entirely material and that's fine. But when there's

1766
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:26,359
something in that middle zone there really is no language

1767
01:41:26,600 --> 01:41:31,399
in I think in sort of Western culture, there's really

1768
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:34,560
there's nowhere to stand and have that conversation. Now there's

1769
01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:39,520
other cultures where they this sort of phenomenon is very

1770
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:43,000
much accepted into a way of life, and you know,

1771
01:41:43,119 --> 01:41:46,479
obviously in those places they have doctors and scientists and stuff,

1772
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:53,000
but their worldview encompasses other things. And what they're not

1773
01:41:53,279 --> 01:41:58,640
doing in those cultures is trying to prove it. They've

1774
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:03,720
already accepted it absolutely, and I think, you know, and

1775
01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:07,079
no one's upset and no one's pissed off, and it's like, yeah,

1776
01:42:07,079 --> 01:42:08,960
and we have doctors do a doctor stuff, and we

1777
01:42:09,039 --> 01:42:14,319
have shaman doing shaman stuff, and we don't have a

1778
01:42:14,439 --> 01:42:18,279
problem with that. But then like in our culture, I

1779
01:42:18,279 --> 01:42:21,680
think there is a problem. And I don't know, if

1780
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:25,640
I honestly, I sometimes I think, oh, it's changing. I

1781
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:28,560
don't know, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Maybe it's

1782
01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:32,239
okay that it isn't. And I never thought it was

1783
01:42:32,279 --> 01:42:37,640
okay until I read the Tricks during the Paranormal and

1784
01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:40,840
it was the first time someone sort of floated the

1785
01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:46,920
notion maybe the skeptics are doing us a favor in

1786
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:50,720
a particular way. Maybe we do need a bit of

1787
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:56,039
a membrane between us and it, and maybe that's the function.

1788
01:42:56,319 --> 01:43:00,000
Maybe it's not healthy for human beings to be totally

1789
01:43:01,119 --> 01:43:06,319
in parlance in communication with these other things, especially not ours,

1790
01:43:06,359 --> 01:43:08,359
because we don't have any we have no way of

1791
01:43:08,439 --> 01:43:12,479
understanding it. So we're really, you know, stepping off that

1792
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:14,720
thirteenth step and you know, falling down.

1793
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:18,720
Speaker 1: So the trickster certainly had a presence with John Keel's

1794
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:22,279
silent contact ease and the way people were being misdirected

1795
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:25,159
over all that period of time. But I had to

1796
01:43:25,159 --> 01:43:27,520
tell you my one of my favorite phrases that John

1797
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:32,520
Keel gave us was transmorifications of energy. I think I

1798
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:37,520
should have a bumper sticker made of that.

1799
01:43:36,239 --> 01:43:39,479
Speaker 4: Steve, aren't you considered a pariah enough at this point

1800
01:43:40,199 --> 01:43:43,560
about a bumper sticker on your car?

1801
01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:47,600
Speaker 1: Well, I've got I've got a plug wedgie sticker with

1802
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:50,319
with Susie's countenance on it.

1803
01:43:50,439 --> 01:43:53,279
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm like waiting, how I was noticing that.

1804
01:43:53,319 --> 01:43:56,800
I'm like, you've got the puckwodgy sticker. But then Susie

1805
01:43:56,840 --> 01:43:58,239
is the puckwodgy expert.

1806
01:43:59,159 --> 01:44:01,800
Speaker 1: Well, she said me, the sticker, you know, kind of

1807
01:44:01,840 --> 01:44:06,399
an advertising boy. I guess it's fading.

1808
01:44:06,439 --> 01:44:09,920
Speaker 4: Oh I thought that was you pressure. I'm sorry, I

1809
01:44:09,960 --> 01:44:13,079
thought you had a mohawk. I thought that was in

1810
01:44:13,119 --> 01:44:16,000
the eighties when you were in your punk band, you know,

1811
01:44:17,159 --> 01:44:18,479
Susie and the Puck Watches.

1812
01:44:19,279 --> 01:44:21,199
Speaker 2: That would be an I'm good.

1813
01:44:21,319 --> 01:44:24,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, they probably find me more in a Lawrence

1814
01:44:24,079 --> 01:44:25,720
Wealth band or something like that, you know.

1815
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:27,680
Speaker 4: Oh God, bless you for the.

1816
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:32,520
Speaker 2: Lawrence we Unfortunately, I have seen Lawrence Welk because my

1817
01:44:32,720 --> 01:44:35,840
mother was in love with the accordion player guy. I

1818
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:39,560
think his name was Myron or Byron or something. You

1819
01:44:40,399 --> 01:44:41,640
forced us to watch it.

1820
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:46,000
Speaker 4: That is amazing because that is again the universal experience.

1821
01:44:46,039 --> 01:44:48,840
I only know Lawrence Well because that's what my grandfather watched.

1822
01:44:49,520 --> 01:44:51,199
So we would be waiting, you know, it's I go

1823
01:44:51,319 --> 01:44:53,039
from seven to eight o'clock. He's got to watch his

1824
01:44:53,119 --> 01:44:56,560
Lawrence Well. Yeah, whatever, you know, love boat or whatever.

1825
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:03,720
Speaker 1: Well, I think I think we'll wrap it up now, Richard.

1826
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:06,560
I hope you'll come back because so much more to

1827
01:45:06,560 --> 01:45:09,039
cut to talk about, and this has been so much fun.

1828
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:13,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, this has been a total honor you guys. I

1829
01:45:14,319 --> 01:45:18,840
love meeting Kindred spirits and people who are who are again?

1830
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:22,159
You know, like Susie sort of finding your own doorway

1831
01:45:22,199 --> 01:45:25,039
into this and uh and grabbing that end of the

1832
01:45:25,119 --> 01:45:30,000
yarn and pulling to see what what's at the other end. Andy,

1833
01:45:30,119 --> 01:45:32,079
I love what you're talking about. I've got to check

1834
01:45:32,079 --> 01:45:33,560
out I've got to check out some of the books

1835
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:38,800
you actually did complete and publish with good thoughts for

1836
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:43,840
the mystery novel coming up? Well, gee, I don't know, Steve.

1837
01:45:43,880 --> 01:45:45,640
I guess I'm going to see you in Point Pleasant

1838
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:46,279
in a few months.

1839
01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:49,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that's yeah, the coming September, that would be.

1840
01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:52,319
It'll be a blast. Yeah yeah, wait man, you're going

1841
01:45:52,359 --> 01:45:54,079
to be like a rock star there. Man, you know,

1842
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:55,800
and I'll say, oh, yeah, I'm.

1843
01:45:55,680 --> 01:45:59,640
Speaker 4: Really doing rails of coke off some prostitute. That's how

1844
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:04,000
we Yeah, me and Richard.

1845
01:46:04,039 --> 01:46:05,560
Speaker 1: We go way back, way way back.

1846
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:05,840
Speaker 4: You know.

1847
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:07,560
Speaker 1: That's right, five or ten minutes so.

1848
01:46:07,640 --> 01:46:09,399
Speaker 4: We're in Cisy in the puckwadries. Man.

1849
01:46:13,079 --> 01:46:15,199
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to do the close out. Everybody sit

1850
01:46:15,319 --> 01:46:19,760
tight and we'll we'll wrap it up again. Thank you, Richard.

1851
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:23,119
The High Strangest Factor was created by Steve Ward and

1852
01:46:23,119 --> 01:46:26,279
Andy Mercer and his copyrighted on the Paranormal UK Radio network.

1853
01:46:26,640 --> 01:46:28,760
I want to thank our fearless leaders here at the

1854
01:46:28,760 --> 01:46:32,880
network Iron ammen, block Mark Johnson and Andy Mercer. Also

1855
01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:36,520
Andy is producer and composer of the closing theme from

1856
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:40,199
his Dark Ambient music and Brian Zeller for the opening theme.

1857
01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:42,439
You can hear all of us from time to time

1858
01:46:42,760 --> 01:46:45,880
on Macloney's Military X Files in real time or in

1859
01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:49,359
the archives on this same network. And I am Steve Ford.

1860
01:46:49,359 --> 01:46:52,079
You're a humble host here on the High Strangers Factor,

1861
01:46:52,359 --> 01:46:56,119
a displaced Michigander deep in the Ohio Valley, living on

1862
01:46:56,159 --> 01:46:59,439
the same road that chased two couples in their Chevy

1863
01:46:59,760 --> 01:47:04,199
Only Tulane in November of nineteen sixty six. Thank you

1864
01:47:04,239 --> 01:47:07,159
all for listening. We will see you all again in

1865
01:47:07,239 --> 01:47:09,720
a fortnight or thereabouts. Take care,