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Speaker 3: We're still having fun around here because we get to
Speaker 3: talk about guns. I'm Tom Gresham. This is gun Talk.
Speaker 3: Glad you could be with us. If you want to
Speaker 3: join me, just give you a call Tom Talkgun That's
Speaker 3: the magic number here. You know, I've been doing this
Speaker 3: a long time and I've known a lot of these
Speaker 3: folks a long time. Joining me right now is one
Speaker 3: of the very top shooters. He has won pretty much
Speaker 3: everything Miam dozens of times national champion, dozens of times
Speaker 3: World champion, just set records. I mean, he's been shooting
Speaker 3: in winning matches since before he needed to shave. We
Speaker 3: are now joined by Rob Latham, and Rob I joined
Speaker 3: you and I greet you in the way of old
Speaker 3: shooters everywhere, which.
Speaker 4: Is huh huh, I can't hear you.
Speaker 3: What how are you doing?
Speaker 4: I am good. It's been about a while since we've talked.
Speaker 4: I miss it.
Speaker 3: I know it has been. I was looking. I sent
Speaker 3: you that link. I was look at that Old Dale
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine Sportsman's Team challenge. You look young and
Speaker 3: I look younger. So there you go.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was younger, I was skinnier, and hey, let's
Speaker 4: get to shaven. Things started getting squared away. I was
Speaker 4: shaving in seventh grade, sixth grade, so come on. Of course,
Speaker 4: of course I was. I was twenty four years old.
Speaker 4: But that's the way it was that.
Speaker 3: I wasn't going to go there. But you read yourself out,
Speaker 3: So what can I tell you? So there you go.
Speaker 4: My sixth times through the third grade. I did great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go, third times a charm. They say
Speaker 3: that's a good thing.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: Birds all right, So you have literally won matches everywhere
Speaker 3: you've been shooting pistols since you and John Browning worked together.
Speaker 3: I remember that very well.
Speaker 4: I remember old Johnny all right.
Speaker 3: But also not only that, you have been teaching people
Speaker 3: to shoot because you are a hell of an instructor.
Speaker 3: You did a class down it range ready, and it
Speaker 3: was kind of a combination of shooting instruction and stand
Speaker 3: up comedy, which was a hoot and a half. You
Speaker 3: and christ Arino hot to go on the road.
Speaker 4: Man, Well, everybody needs to recognize you know that you're
Speaker 4: gonna laugh at everything, and you're gonna cry, so you
Speaker 4: may as well laugh. It's more fun than crying. And well, yeah,
Speaker 4: well there are serious things going on, especially when we
Speaker 4: were training. You got to have a sense of humor.
Speaker 4: It's easier to absorb your mistakes when it's funny than
Speaker 4: if you take it too seriously. And that's what a
Speaker 4: lot of classes is, finding out things you need to change,
Speaker 4: things you need to do things you didn't know.
Speaker 3: All right, So you have taught everybody from literally beginning
Speaker 3: shooters to world class shooters. And the question I have
Speaker 3: is why do we keep missing?
Speaker 4: The biggest reason, the single largest reason, is, without a doubt,
Speaker 4: trying to focus on things that we can't do well,
Speaker 4: that aren't even that important, and we don't focus on
Speaker 4: doing things that are important that we don't do well.
Speaker 4: So it's I mean, most of us can look at
Speaker 4: the sites really well, so I tell you to aim
Speaker 4: I actually never have to tell anybody to aim anymore.
Speaker 4: But if I tell you to aim, you know what
Speaker 4: that means. If I tell you to pull the trigger
Speaker 4: really fast without moving the gun, and I may even
Speaker 4: call it jerk, and nobody knows what that means. So
Speaker 4: there's a learning process to absorb concepts. But the mechanical
Speaker 4: mistake that is most often made is, I'll put it
Speaker 4: twofold one. We move the gun when we're trying to
Speaker 4: shoot it. Most of us can hold the gun pretty steady.
Speaker 4: When we're not trying to most of us can get
Speaker 4: it aligned or not shooting. But throwing in the needed
Speaker 4: to shoot component causes us to move the gun. It's
Speaker 4: moving the gun. And the second portion is we tend
Speaker 4: to practice things slow and say to slow down learn
Speaker 4: how to do it, which is great for a starting point,
Speaker 4: but when you need that later on, you're unlikely to
Speaker 4: have that time. So we have to learn to do
Speaker 4: some things fast. There's just no you know, there's no
Speaker 4: carryover to it doing it slow, you know.
Speaker 3: So shooting slowly doesn't teach you how it'll shoot fast.
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely not. No, There're two different things. It's like
Speaker 4: running and walking. You know, there's there's associated movements. I
Speaker 4: mean obviously using your finger using the trigger, and you're
Speaker 4: gripping the gun, but the process of moving your finger
Speaker 4: to fire the gun, to pull the trigger is poorly
Speaker 4: understood and quite often, uh, well what the nice how
Speaker 4: the nice way to say this is out sound like
Speaker 4: a bu ahead Tom. It's taught wrong.
Speaker 3: It's taught wrong by people who don't know what they're
Speaker 3: talking about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a that's a that's a perfect way of
Speaker 4: doing it, my heart. The hardest way I usually say
Speaker 4: is when I have someone that's having a struggle and
Speaker 4: they're saying and they say to themselves. You'll hear them
Speaker 4: say it under their breath or even out loud. They say,
Speaker 4: I just need to slow down, and says no, you
Speaker 4: can't slow down. I mean there's no time to slow down.
Speaker 4: Slow down is a guaranteed failure. Doing it fast might fail,
Speaker 4: but doing it slow means you probably don't get a
Speaker 4: chance to fail. And I think that's hard for people
Speaker 4: to understand that. If you're in a circumstance where you
Speaker 4: have time, that's great, but if you have time, if
Speaker 4: you don't have time, then the process has to occur quickly.
Speaker 4: And I think most people honestly don't understand the mechanism
Speaker 4: well enough of pulling the trigger quickly.
Speaker 3: Disturbing the sites right.
Speaker 4: Well and are moving them much Let's say, yeah, okay,
Speaker 4: when we get when you get to aim. And one
Speaker 4: of the big problems comm is people look for levels
Speaker 4: of perfection like the dot and the sites need to
Speaker 4: be absolutely motionless. Then they really don't. They just have
Speaker 4: to be good and a little bit of movement is okay,
Speaker 4: but enough that causes misalignment where you're no longer pointed
Speaker 4: to gun. That's where the problems start coming in. The
Speaker 4: way I want way to a describe it as somebody is,
Speaker 4: if you're run out the highway and you're going at
Speaker 4: a high rate of speed, you call that number whatever
Speaker 4: you want. I'm gon same line in Arizona, and it's
Speaker 4: we're on the high freeway between Phoenix and Tucson, and
Speaker 4: it's seventy five miles an hour, and you come around
Speaker 4: a car to do a pass, and there's a tire
Speaker 4: in the middle of the road. At this point, you're
Speaker 4: going to have to do something fast. It's your only
Speaker 4: way of avoiding hitting it or having the accident. So
Speaker 4: if I was to say, now, just carefully, you you know,
Speaker 4: apply the brakes and at the same time, just slowly
Speaker 4: start steering back to where you came from or around it.
Speaker 4: And in the meantime you hit the tire. It didn't
Speaker 4: really matter how while you're doing it and how smoothly
Speaker 4: you're doing it. Happened too slow. And that's how shooting
Speaker 4: is a lot of the time for the competition world.
Speaker 4: You can't be slow unless you shoot slow games. I'm
Speaker 4: talking about fast shooting games.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because if you're.
Speaker 4: Slow, you're gonna lose, right, I mean, if you're there's
Speaker 4: a certain pace you have to be at. And there
Speaker 4: are a couple of guys I'm working with right now
Speaker 4: who will probably hear this show and they'll know I'm
Speaker 4: talking about them. Both of them are extraordinarily good shots,
Speaker 4: and in their own realm are master class shooters. But
Speaker 4: when it comes to the last little degree where they
Speaker 4: need to be about twenty percent faster, there's no easy
Speaker 4: way to get there, especially by trying to be slow.
Speaker 4: We're trying to be slow or smooth. I mean, at
Speaker 4: that point, the only solution is violent and quick, and
Speaker 4: that's the next thing they have to learn because you
Speaker 4: can get. You can get really really well, become a
Speaker 4: really good shot up to a point. But to be
Speaker 4: good enough.
Speaker 3: Well I know, I know from I know from experience.
Speaker 3: If I really want to take off Rob Latham, all
Speaker 3: I have to do is say we don't slow and
Speaker 3: smooth and smooth as fast?
Speaker 4: God, there it is. I knew you were gonna hit
Speaker 4: me with that way. Man.
Speaker 3: That is.
Speaker 4: That is one of those old I don't even want
Speaker 4: to term for. It is completely misunderstood statements because what
Speaker 4: it says doesn't actually make any sense if you put
Speaker 4: into context of what somebody meant. At one point, they're
Speaker 4: probably describing something that they experienced and slower experienced as smooth.
Speaker 4: Like people will watch a good shooter shoot and they'll say, man,
Speaker 4: you're smooth, and I'm like, wow, boys, you didn't feel
Speaker 4: like it. I felt like I was hacking all over
Speaker 4: the place, and and somebody else will describe it another way,
Speaker 4: and then they'll put a value on that and say, oh,
Speaker 4: I got to slow down to be smooth. I'm like,
Speaker 4: well you can, but you're going to lose. And depending
Speaker 4: on what the game you're playing here, is the gunfighter
Speaker 4: or competition, you might lose a match. But there's something
Speaker 4: worse that could happen in a serious situation.
Speaker 3: Let me ask you, because part and parcel all of
Speaker 3: this I'm talking about the I think people focus way
Speaker 3: too much on aiming. We talk about that. Yes, one
Speaker 3: of the drills that I do, and I didn't make
Speaker 3: it up. A lot of people have done this. You
Speaker 3: take somebody and you get an a email on the
Speaker 3: target and you can tell they're flinching and they're jerking tuggar.
Speaker 3: So all right, just before you pull the trigger, close
Speaker 3: your eyes, close both eyes, and pull the trigger, and
Speaker 3: I swear it goes right in the center.
Speaker 4: Of the bulls lie every time, every time. What we're
Speaker 4: good at, what we've practiced, is holding the gun to
Speaker 4: let's call it. Let's call it alignment for lack of
Speaker 4: a better term. You put the gun in the middle
Speaker 4: of the target. Let's say you're five five yards away
Speaker 4: from an insecise target. You point it in the middle.
Speaker 4: Most of us can close our eyes and hold the
Speaker 4: gun for a minute and it would ever leave the target,
Speaker 4: if you know what I mean. So I don't need
Speaker 4: you to do it for a minute. I need you
Speaker 4: to close your eyes to get rid of that. That's
Speaker 4: what's the.
Speaker 3: Time when you can target fixation.
Speaker 4: There you go target fixation. So we expect the gun
Speaker 4: to fire, or we're waiting for the gun to fire
Speaker 4: when there's this this this instant of perfection occurs and
Speaker 4: it hardly ever does become perfect. It becomes good enough.
Speaker 4: But if we just close our eyes, then we're not
Speaker 4: even struggling with the aiming component of it. And then
Speaker 4: you immediately have to go from vision to feel, and
Speaker 4: you realize, all of a sudden, now people feel the gun. Now,
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, they feel the grip. Now, they
Speaker 4: feel the trigger pull, and nobody flinches when they close
Speaker 4: their eyes. And it was when I first did that
Speaker 4: with somebody. It's been quite a while, it's been many, many,
Speaker 4: many years. I said, and watched this person sheets slow
Speaker 4: fire and then I will and she's fine, and I said,
Speaker 4: now we need to go faster. And every single time
Speaker 4: this person pushed the gun down, and I watched how
Speaker 4: he was actually manipulating the trigger. To him, he was
Speaker 4: never even working on the trigger. It was his finger
Speaker 4: was off. It was not even touching, which is okay,
Speaker 4: but if you do it right, and he wasn't even touching,
Speaker 4: and then you just saw that that instant came and
Speaker 4: then he did everything. He pulled the trigger. He went
Speaker 4: from off the trigger to on the trigger, pulled the trigger,
Speaker 4: controlled recoil and everything, and missed. And I said, you
Speaker 4: could watch this flinch occur from the guy's shoulder all
Speaker 4: the way through his arm into his hands, right, And
Speaker 4: it's like, why don't just pull the trigger? And what
Speaker 4: he means is what I'm trying to make it happen
Speaker 4: right when the sites are perfect. So I said, close
Speaker 4: your eyes. You know, the sites are perfect the whole time.
Speaker 4: And it's just kind of where that came from. But
Speaker 4: it's funny you bring that one up, because that is
Speaker 4: the standard for teaching people trigger pulled, because trigger pull
Speaker 4: is not visual. You don't look at the trigger when
Speaker 4: you pull it right.
Speaker 3: You know. You know when you say don't worry about
Speaker 3: the sights because the sites are fine all the time,
Speaker 3: what you mean is that, look, nobody is wobbling the
Speaker 3: sights off the target. The wobble may be an inch
Speaker 3: or two left and right, so who cares? Just any
Speaker 3: of those is fine. Quit worrying about that and just
Speaker 3: get the trigger pulled without disturbing tay, what hold on right?
Speaker 3: I gotta take a quick break here. We're talking with
Speaker 3: Rob Latham, World Championshooter, obviously a great instructor, knows what
Speaker 3: he's talking about because he agrees with me most of
Speaker 3: the time. We'll be right back.
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Speaker 3: I imagine in my business being a media guy, you meet
Speaker 3: a lot of people and you know they of course old,
Speaker 3: there friendly, and you make kind of friends. And then
Speaker 3: there are those people. It's rare that you make really
Speaker 3: really good friends. Rob Latham is one of those. It's
Speaker 3: like we started off with business acquaintances and it just
Speaker 3: became good friends. It doesn't matter how long we've been
Speaker 3: apart or when we've seen each others. Like you get
Speaker 3: together and you start right in the middle of the
Speaker 3: conversation and Rob's with us right now. I got a
Speaker 3: question for you, partner. I think I'm trying to interpret
Speaker 3: what we're talking about here. One of the things that
Speaker 3: occurs to me trying to learn how to shoot faster
Speaker 3: or shoot fast maybe the word trust comes in trusting
Speaker 3: that the sites or the dot are okay and not
Speaker 3: worrying about it and not trying to force them onto
Speaker 3: the target and just pressing the trigger fast.
Speaker 4: I would agree with that one hundred percent. I don't
Speaker 4: think there's any way you can proceed with the trigger
Speaker 4: pull unless you do trust that the alignment you've created
Speaker 4: is sufficient. And one of the things that dry I'm
Speaker 4: going to get talking here, Tom, One of the things
Speaker 4: that drives me towards that is a fact that when
Speaker 4: people switch from iron sights to the optical site, they
Speaker 4: all of a sudden see a greater precision or greater
Speaker 4: degree of clarity of what they have when it comes
Speaker 4: to alignment. And I almost always see people who have
Speaker 4: moved from iron sights, especially if there are fighters of it.
Speaker 4: There are people who didn't really want the optics and
Speaker 4: found that one day came along They're like, well, hell,
Speaker 4: I can't see the sits well enough to do this,
Speaker 4: I kind of have to. So let's say they didn't
Speaker 4: really want to and they don't really like the looks
Speaker 4: of them on their gun, and so we're describing me
Speaker 4: by the way, and too, Okay, Yeah, this is me
Speaker 4: and I found the found the day where you know you,
Speaker 4: I've used them as competition all along, but I never
Speaker 4: wanted to ever have to use them as as a
Speaker 4: as an all the time. And then of course you
Speaker 4: get d the point where my vision is such that
Speaker 4: I need it. But now, all of a sudden, I
Speaker 4: see this level of precision that I probably never noticed before.
Speaker 4: One of the big struggles is a person who came
Speaker 4: from the focus on the sights of side of the tracks,
Speaker 4: all of a sudden is focusing on the target. That's
Speaker 4: an uncomfortable thing for them because they were always able
Speaker 4: to just ignore what was happening downrange to some and
Speaker 4: then and then now they can say, okay, well now
Speaker 4: I oh god, there's a target, so I see greater
Speaker 4: clarity of the thing I'm shooting. And I think looking
Speaker 4: at the was a way of not having to worry
Speaker 4: too much about that. I think the advantage of the
Speaker 4: optical fight is undeniable. The difficulty and uses it becomes
Speaker 4: a struggle from switching over and all of a sudden
Speaker 4: you see this, Oh my god, the gun, I'm not
Speaker 4: holding it steady. You would never see it with iron sights.
Speaker 4: And then with the optical sight. You're like, well, one,
Speaker 4: I can see on the target how much my sight
Speaker 4: is moving, and I can see it clearly and the
Speaker 4: dot and almost I can't pull the trigger because it's
Speaker 4: not perfect. And I see a lot of that time
Speaker 4: where people really struggle making that crossover and learning, Like
Speaker 4: I think my seakliner probably taught it the best of
Speaker 4: anybody I've ever seen. Is he sits there the first
Speaker 4: time I'd ever seen anybody do this, and he sits
Speaker 4: there and just move the gun all over the target
Speaker 4: and says, you tell me when to pull the trigger,
Speaker 4: and I'll shoot as soon as you tell me to.
Speaker 4: I won't wait for sight arm. So he's moving this
Speaker 4: thing all over the place, right, And then the class
Speaker 4: sits there and says now, and he shoots within his
Speaker 4: fast reaction time. So he shooting with fifteen hundred and
Speaker 4: second and wherever the gun's point is where he shoots.
Speaker 4: And you were sitting there watching the gun move around,
Speaker 4: and there's the gun move around. You go like, well,
Speaker 4: there's no way he can be hitting anything. And we
Speaker 4: did this and there was maybe ten or fifteen yards
Speaker 4: and you walk up to the target and go well,
Speaker 4: and the students start trying to trick him too. They
Speaker 4: start and there is no trick to it. They're saying like,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna wait till he's on his way out, and
Speaker 4: then it moves out and I'll say now, and he'd
Speaker 4: shoot whenever, wouldn't correct anything to go down there. And
Speaker 4: there's a group in the middle of the target, and
Speaker 4: eighty percent of them are in the center zone of
Speaker 4: the tog at the target, and the ones that are
Speaker 4: out are barely out, and everybody is flabbergas, and it's
Speaker 4: like the close your eyes thing. Everybody's flabbergas when you
Speaker 4: hit the targets and you're not looking at the sites.
Speaker 4: And that kind of shows people that you really don't
Speaker 4: need some sort of ludicrous amount of stability. It doesn't
Speaker 4: have to be emotionless motionless as the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 4: It needs to be steady enough. But it can't be motionless.
Speaker 4: I don't know needing, but a few masterclass bull By
Speaker 4: shooters can hold the gun motionless.
Speaker 3: Let me throw out a thought that we would probably
Speaker 3: all of us would hate to hear, and that is
Speaker 3: that it may just be we have to accept that
Speaker 3: good enough is actually good enough, and our enemy is
Speaker 3: striving for perfection.
Speaker 4: Right, that's correct. That is exactly how I would describe it.
Speaker 4: In our mind, we're thinking we need something we can't do.
Speaker 4: So then anytime we're like, well I can't do that, well,
Speaker 4: I mean, I love the challenge of trying to figure
Speaker 4: out how there is this thing I can't do. I'm like, well, no,
Speaker 4: I'm telling you you can't do this because it can't
Speaker 4: be done, right, it can't be done. When I talk
Speaker 4: to my best bold eye shooter buddies and when I
Speaker 4: watch them hold the gun, I'll sit there and say
Speaker 4: that gun is not moving. He said, yeah, is it
Speaker 4: move it all over the place. So it's just for them.
Speaker 3: It's moving all over the place.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But you and me, it's like, good, this thing
Speaker 4: doesn't move at all. But even a beginning shooter holds
Speaker 4: the gun steady enough to be on target. That's not
Speaker 4: where they struggle. It's putting all these pieces together and
Speaker 4: if we get I mean, the way I describe is
Speaker 4: hold on real type, learn how to pull the trigger
Speaker 4: without moving it, see clearly what you're trying to hit,
Speaker 4: and create a little bit of alignment. The term I
Speaker 4: use is aim a little bit aime enough enough, but faster. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 4: because again we're back to the what's more important if
Speaker 4: you're trying to make a if you're trying to hit
Speaker 4: a six inch or a five inch target at twenty
Speaker 4: five yards. First off, if it's stationary, that's a pretty
Speaker 4: lucky position because in a real life situation that wouldn't
Speaker 4: be true. But this is what I think a lot
Speaker 4: of what we expect is to throw an optical sight
Speaker 4: on the gun all of a sudden, and now I
Speaker 4: can hit anything I can see and say, well, okay, Rob.
Speaker 3: I got to interrupt you here because thrankly, I'm just
Speaker 3: tired of talking with you.
Speaker 4: I told you, I told you I was going to
Speaker 4: get talking, buddy, Let's.
Speaker 3: Pick it up again. Always a pleasure, Rob Latham. Uh,
Speaker 3: I am fortunate to call your friend, and I always
Speaker 3: love to have you here.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, all right.
Speaker 3: You take care of Tell that lovely wife heres hello
Speaker 3: for us? All right, everybody, eight sixty six talk gun
Speaker 3: will get you in here. Yeah, that's you just got
Speaker 3: a masterclass. You really did o, kid?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, when we come back, Holy cal we got a
Speaker 3: lot to talk about Second Amendment stuff going on, you
Speaker 3: know it seems like the battle never ends, and that's because, well,
Speaker 3: the battle never ends, since we can have a lot
Speaker 3: of victories and the fight is still there because the
Speaker 3: gun banners never sleep and they, unfortunately they are very
Speaker 3: well funded. We're joined right now by Bill Sack. He's
Speaker 3: the senior director of Legal Operations of the Second Amendment
Speaker 3: Foundation bill. That's a mouthful, but I guess that applies because.
Speaker 11: You're yep, yep, there's no shortage of government to sue
Speaker 11: around these parts.
Speaker 3: That's our job security, right, Okay, So you just want
Speaker 3: a big one. Start from the beginning. What the heck
Speaker 3: is this all about?
Speaker 10: Sure, so as folks will remember.
Speaker 11: Because we all have PTSD from the Biden administration. During
Speaker 11: the administration in twenty twenty two, one of the gun
Speaker 11: control folk of the administration was quote unquote ghost guns.
Speaker 11: I'm doing air quotes here for the listeners at home.
Speaker 11: And you know, the concern was was that at the
Speaker 11: time there had been some growing popularity of you knownufactured
Speaker 11: self manufacturing gun kits, things like polymer EIGHTI kits, eighty
Speaker 11: percent AR receivers and things like that. Were hobbyists and
Speaker 11: liberty minded individuals could buy kits of non complete non firearms,
Speaker 11: and they could if they so choose gunsmith and complete
Speaker 11: the kits and make firearms for their own personal use,
Speaker 11: which by the way, is.
Speaker 10: Completely lawful activity.
Speaker 11: The ATF agrees, the Constitution degrees it's completely legal for
Speaker 11: you to make your own guns for your own personal
Speaker 11: use so long as you're not prohibited from possessing.
Speaker 3: Them, and it has been for two hundred and fifty years.
Speaker 10: No one really says otherwise.
Speaker 11: But what the Biden administration ATF wanted to do was
Speaker 11: essentially chill that activity.
Speaker 10: They didn't like.
Speaker 11: It, and they, rather than trying to ban it outright
Speaker 11: because they knew that they would run into the constitutional
Speaker 11: protections that ultimately they ran into in this case, they
Speaker 11: passed a regulation through the ATF trying to make it
Speaker 11: exceedingly difficult in order for people to get the parts
Speaker 11: and the raw materials that they would need to be
Speaker 11: able to self manufacture their own firearms.
Speaker 10: And so what they did is they promulgated.
Speaker 11: This regulation through the ATF that essentially made it impossible
Speaker 11: for the average person to.
Speaker 10: Know what was a gun and what wasn't a gun.
Speaker 11: And what it did was it tried to change the
Speaker 11: definition of firearm under the Gun Control Act such that
Speaker 11: it would also include frames or receivers of firearms, but
Speaker 11: not just those those that are incomplete, not completely manufactured,
Speaker 11: non functional.
Speaker 10: But what they coined a.
Speaker 11: New term which was readily convertible or readily completable, okay,
Speaker 11: And they created this test for what means readily completable
Speaker 11: that was completely opaque.
Speaker 10: It was multi factor.
Speaker 11: Even the factors that they listed in the rule, they
Speaker 11: said this was a.
Speaker 10: Non exclusive, non exhaustive list.
Speaker 11: So they essentially said, hey, look, it's a gun when
Speaker 11: we see it. We know when we see it, but
Speaker 11: we're not going to tell you ahead of time what's
Speaker 11: a gun and what's not a gun.
Speaker 3: Which is tells you that you go ahead and do it.
Speaker 3: And if we decide that you broke the law, even
Speaker 3: though you can't know what the law is yet, we're
Speaker 3: going to tell you and we'll throw you in prison exactly.
Speaker 10: Right, you know.
Speaker 11: Like the what was actually at risk here for both
Speaker 11: the individuals and manufacturers was if you sell something that
Speaker 11: you believe is an inanimate object, a non firearm object
Speaker 11: as we call them in the lawsuit, because it's something
Speaker 11: like an incomplete polymera EIGHTI frame that is not a
Speaker 11: gun cannot be used as a gun because you would
Speaker 11: have to do additional things to it for it to
Speaker 11: be able to accept the parts necessary for it to
Speaker 11: be a gun, for to meet the definition of firearm
Speaker 11: or the Gun Control Act. You know, if it's not
Speaker 11: that one of those things, you could just sell it online.
Speaker 11: You can sell it to anybody because it's not a
Speaker 11: firearm under the law. But if it is a gun,
Speaker 11: well then all of the regulations that we.
Speaker 10: All know and hate apply.
Speaker 11: You know, you have to send it to an FFL,
Speaker 11: A forty four to seventy three, a background check, all
Speaker 11: sorts of things have to be done that are associated
Speaker 11: with selling guns.
Speaker 10: You need to be a licensed dealer.
Speaker 11: And if you sell a gun as a non gun,
Speaker 11: well you can get in a lot of trouble and
Speaker 11: go to prison for a long time.
Speaker 3: You know, Bill And so what they I've been visiting
Speaker 3: the atl just kind of smiling saying, do you feel lucky? Punk?
Speaker 10: Exactly exactly.
Speaker 11: So, you know, they knew that they were skirting around
Speaker 11: the edges of what was going to be legal and
Speaker 11: constitutional to begin with. And so what they did was
Speaker 11: they wrote a very mealy mouthed, vaporous and impossible to
Speaker 11: understand regulation that was designed to create confusion in the marketplace,
Speaker 11: create confusion amongst gund owners, and in the interim, if
Speaker 11: you don't know what you're allowed to do or what
Speaker 11: will get you thrown in jail for ten years, then
Speaker 11: you're probably just not going to.
Speaker 10: Try to do it to begin with. And that's exactly
Speaker 10: what they want.
Speaker 3: Okay, So obviously you took this into court and we
Speaker 3: just got a good win. What's the whim say, because
Speaker 3: sometimes just like, okay, what if the court actually say
Speaker 3: on this thing?
Speaker 10: Sure?
Speaker 11: Sure, So people that have been following long hood will
Speaker 11: also remember that this already went up to the Supreme
Speaker 11: Court once. So the case at that time was called
Speaker 11: Vanderstock and it went up to the Supreme Court on
Speaker 11: only one claim that we had as part of this lawsuit,
Speaker 11: which was a statutory construction claim, essentially saying that the
Speaker 11: ATF had read the statute to say things that it
Speaker 11: doesn't say and they tried to insert words that weren't there.
Speaker 11: The Supreme Court ultimately didn't agree with us on that claim,
Speaker 11: and we lost on that claim. But the rest of
Speaker 11: the case kept on going and in the rest of
Speaker 11: the case. We had two additional claims, a Second Amendment
Speaker 11: claim and a Fifth Amendment claim, and just just now
Speaker 11: a few days ago, we got a win, and we
Speaker 11: got a summary judgment win and a permanent injunction granted,
Speaker 11: as well as declaratory relief on both the Second Amendic
Speaker 11: claim and the Fifth Amendment claim.
Speaker 3: Okay, so what does that mean realistically? What can we
Speaker 3: do now that we couldn't do before?
Speaker 10: Great question, So a few things.
Speaker 11: So the declaratory relief is exactly kind of what it
Speaker 11: sounds like. That means that the court has declared that
Speaker 11: the entirety of the Biden era frame a.
Speaker 10: Receiver rule is unconstitutional.
Speaker 11: Now this is important as applied to the plaintiffs in
Speaker 11: the case, and the plaintiffs in the case are Defense Distributed,
Speaker 11: our partner in the case, and Second Memen Foundation and
Speaker 11: all of our members both current and future.
Speaker 10: So to be included in the.
Speaker 11: Declaratory relief, you need to be a SAFF member.
Speaker 10: You can always join. Now's a great time to join
Speaker 10: to be part of this injunction.
Speaker 11: And what that means is that the Northern District of
Speaker 11: Texas has now said for SAFF members nationwide. This rule
Speaker 11: is unconstitutional as applied to you. So if the government
Speaker 11: tried to use this rule against you in some sort
Speaker 11: of prosecution, you have a court order that you can
Speaker 11: wave around as a shield and say, nh uh, I'm
Speaker 11: a SAFF member. This applies to me for all intents
Speaker 11: and purposes if you are a second Me Foundation member.
Speaker 11: The frameer receiver rule, the ghost gun rule, is dead
Speaker 11: and gone, and what we now have is a return
Speaker 11: to the status quo of the definition of firearm under
Speaker 11: the Gun Control Act. It's right back to where the
Speaker 11: law was saying, like twenty twenty one before this rule
Speaker 11: was passed on.
Speaker 3: Okay, two things. One, Obviously, people need to know what
Speaker 3: the laws are in their state because state laws are
Speaker 3: not federal laws, and you could run again to something there.
Speaker 3: And number two, while this is really good news, it's
Speaker 3: also absolutely maddening, just like with the suppressure decision, where
Speaker 3: you have to belong to a certain group to actually
Speaker 3: have your constitutional rights. I understand why the Supreme Court
Speaker 3: and these courts are doing this, but it's just just
Speaker 3: nuts that you'd say, oh, you have a second member right,
Speaker 3: but only if you're a member of the Second Amendment Foundation.
Speaker 10: That's right, that's right. It is both frustrating and seemingly silly.
Speaker 11: And we get this question a lot from our constituents
Speaker 11: and our members. In fact, I just was responding to
Speaker 11: an email this morning that was asking this question of, like,
Speaker 11: you know, Bill, let me get this straight. The Constitution
Speaker 11: means something different for SAFF members as opposed to NONSAFF members.
Speaker 10: How can that be? And it is.
Speaker 11: It's it is a little bit of kind of legal
Speaker 11: trickery that's at play here, because obviously we know that
Speaker 11: you know, what the Constitution and what federal law means
Speaker 11: is supposed to be applicable to everybody everywhere in the country. Equally,
Speaker 11: the federal courts are limited in terms of the scope
Speaker 11: of relief that they can offer. And this is because
Speaker 11: of case law that has come down over the years,
Speaker 11: including a Supreme Court case just from a year or
Speaker 11: so ago called Trump Vicasa exactly, and that limited the
Speaker 11: ability of the federal courts to issue injunctions that are
Speaker 11: quote unquote universal, which means that they apply to everybody
Speaker 11: everywhere in the country.
Speaker 10: Courts only have, according to this case, the.
Speaker 11: Jurisdictional authority to rule on to make rulings that apply
Speaker 11: to the people that are in the cases in front
Speaker 11: of them, and so we.
Speaker 10: Try to get the broadest possible relief.
Speaker 11: We try to get it to affect the most possible
Speaker 11: people in the country by bringing the case on behalf
Speaker 11: of our members, because that way we can cover, you know,
Speaker 11: thousands and thousands and thousands of people all over the country,
Speaker 11: and all you have to do is become a staff member.
Speaker 11: Whereas if we bring the case just on behalf of
Speaker 11: you know, like four people that live in Texas, well,
Speaker 11: then it only protects four people that live in Texas.
Speaker 3: Would it be possible to follow this up with some
Speaker 3: kind of a class action that represents all gun owners
Speaker 3: in America or all Americans? How do we get this
Speaker 3: to where we can say all Americans now can enjoy
Speaker 3: this Second Amendment again? Right?
Speaker 11: Great, great question. So the answer there is two words.
Speaker 11: Supreme Court. You know, the way that these things get
Speaker 11: resolved is that the Supreme Court is supposed to rule
Speaker 11: on them. The best way to get nationwide relief that
Speaker 11: covers everybody, covers all the states, covers all the jurisdictions
Speaker 11: is for the Supreme Court to say, hey, look, this
Speaker 11: thing is now dead. It is really dead. It's gone
Speaker 11: for everybody. So that is why we try so hard
Speaker 11: for all of these cases, to run them up the
Speaker 11: federal ladder, to get these through the circuit courts and
Speaker 11: before the Supreme Court and make the argument, like, what's
Speaker 11: really an issue here? It's constitutional rights. Constitutional rights must
Speaker 11: by their very nature apply to all Americans everywhere right now.
Speaker 11: They don't please fix this, And that is the argument
Speaker 11: that we make to the Supreme Court over and over again.
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is a win, and you can make
Speaker 3: your own guns again. If you're a member of staff,
Speaker 3: go ahead and join. You should belong anyway, all right.
Speaker 3: I know that there's a I've got like a couple
Speaker 3: of minutes left. There's another big case that you've I
Speaker 3: guess a file two or maybe even three lawsuits on
Speaker 3: now where the states and even cities are trying to
Speaker 3: ban block pistols.
Speaker 11: It's as crazy as it sounds. You know, all of
Speaker 11: the jurisdictions that for years and years have attempted to
Speaker 11: ban and I'm doing air quotes again, assault rifles are
Speaker 11: now trying to ban the most popular or amongst the
Speaker 11: most popular handguns in the country, which of course are
Speaker 11: you know, glock and the clock platform. They're making the
Speaker 11: argument that these things need to be banned because criminals
Speaker 11: take illegal machine gun conversion devices, you know, clock switches
Speaker 11: known colloquially and illegally convert them into machine guns, and
Speaker 11: because these criminals are doing illegal things with other illegal things,
Speaker 11: well then we must also ban the platform that they
Speaker 11: are doing these illegal things too. That's their theory about
Speaker 11: why this is in the public cy interest.
Speaker 3: And they're passion to the laws. I mean, they're actually
Speaker 3: doing this and it's against the law in some states.
Speaker 11: Now, oh yeah, we have we have these block bans
Speaker 11: and four jurisdictions now we have laws suits filed in
Speaker 11: three of them already, so in California, Maryland, and now
Speaker 11: just recently in New York. The problem with these things
Speaker 11: from a constitutional perspective, and this is exactly what we argued,
Speaker 11: is we all know that all arms in common use
Speaker 11: are protected by the Second Amendment.
Speaker 10: This is what the Supreme Court has articulated.
Speaker 11: This is part of the brew and test is that
Speaker 11: if it's an arm that's in common use for lawful purposes,
Speaker 11: it's protected. And we also know from the Heller decision
Speaker 11: that handguns specifically are protected because they're the quintessential arm
Speaker 11: for self defense. Okay, so what these states have done
Speaker 11: is they, even having been told that they can't ban
Speaker 11: handguns and they can't ban common guns, they've chosen to
Speaker 11: ban the most common handguns, which is astounding to say
Speaker 11: the least. And so we have suon.
Speaker 3: Were about the analogy here of people are taking they're
Speaker 3: rechipping and doing stuff to make their chevies go so
Speaker 3: fast they're really breaking the speed limit. So rather than
Speaker 3: go after the speeders, let's just band chevalets.
Speaker 11: Exactly right, precisely right, We're gonna ban V eight engines
Speaker 11: because people are souping them up and taking them to
Speaker 11: the drag streight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. This seems easy because we have the Supreme
Speaker 3: Court decisions that say you cannot do this.
Speaker 10: So we sure think that it's a slam dunk case.
Speaker 11: And making matters even better, is you know we of course,
Speaker 11: let's not forget we have two assault weapons ban cases
Speaker 11: Second Amendment Foundation assault weapons ban cases that the Supreme
Speaker 11: Court agreed to hear this coming term. That is Vera
Speaker 11: Montes and Grant coming out of Chicago and in Connecticut.
Speaker 11: And so we're going to get some additional information from
Speaker 11: the Supreme Court this term about what sort of arms
Speaker 11: can be banned in what can't, and just in the
Speaker 11: same way that our position, and we believe that the
Speaker 11: Supreme Court and certainly hope that the Supreme Court is
Speaker 11: going to agree with us, is that if you can't
Speaker 11: ban the most common rifles in America like the AR fifteen,
Speaker 11: you certainly can't ban the most common handguns in America
Speaker 11: like glocks and block platform pistols. So we're hoping that
Speaker 11: once these assault weapons ban cases percolate through the Supreme
Speaker 11: Court and we get an opinion in those that there's
Speaker 11: going to be really strong language and really strong interpretation
Speaker 11: that we get there, that we can then take to
Speaker 11: these glockcases and be like, cut it out, these got
Speaker 11: to go, get them out of here, and that they
Speaker 11: get kicked out on their keyster pretty quickly.
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, we're having to fight the fight
Speaker 3: and spend the money. And if you live in these states,
Speaker 3: you are operating under these non constitutional restrictions.
Speaker 11: That's right, you know, they are in effect. We are
Speaker 11: fighting the fight. You know, we get these cases filed
Speaker 11: as early as we can, even before the laws take
Speaker 11: effect in many instances, but it's critical to us and
Speaker 11: our constituency and everybody in New York, for example, that
Speaker 11: this law is put on hold and is not enforceable.
Speaker 10: While all of that happens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, the other thing is and we kind
Speaker 3: of lose sight of this sometimes we're in the middle
Speaker 3: of the churches. Is we are winning in ways that
Speaker 3: we could not have imagined twenty or thirty years ago.
Speaker 10: Oh, no question.
Speaker 11: I mean the arc of history is going so far
Speaker 11: in our favor.
Speaker 10: I mean, we have constitutional carry in a majority of states.
Speaker 11: We got major chunks of the NFA enjoined just within
Speaker 11: the last week or two. We got this this Biden
Speaker 11: administration frame of receiver rule struck down just.
Speaker 10: A couple of days ago.
Speaker 11: We have two assault weapons ban cases that are going
Speaker 11: before the Supreme Court.
Speaker 10: I mean, we are winning.
Speaker 11: So we're winning so many times and so all over
Speaker 11: the place that we're starting to get.
Speaker 10: Like win fatigue.
Speaker 11: We want to make sure that everybody understands it's not
Speaker 11: the time to take your foot off of the gas pedal.
Speaker 11: It's the time to slam it to the floor.
Speaker 10: Let's go. Let's keep on winning big.
Speaker 3: Here, girl, Bill Sack, Senior director of Legal Operations the
Speaker 3: Secondman Foundation. Thank you so much for what you do.
Speaker 6: Hell, yes, we're going to take your AR fifteen, your
Speaker 6: AK forty seven.
Speaker 3: So after the interview with Rob Latham, I had a
Speaker 3: little text exchange with them real time and he said,
Speaker 3: you know, he said he's got these hands are arthritic
Speaker 3: and it harked him to hold in these fat grip guns.
Speaker 3: He says, you know, we came up with an idea.
Speaker 3: We actually created a new gun right right on the spot.
Speaker 3: Our concept is going to be a twenty eleven, one
Speaker 3: of these twenty eleven pistols with a single stack grip.
Speaker 3: So it's gonna be a single stack twenty eleven. Where
Speaker 3: do you think I think we're onto something here. Maybe
Speaker 3: could be. I'm looking at reports of more carjackings and
Speaker 3: people who are startled, frightened. Never imagined that could happen.
Speaker 3: Why would somebody do that to me? One case where
Speaker 3: people are walking their dog and this guy just tries
Speaker 3: to run over him because he got mad at him?
Speaker 3: Because whatever makes no sense. Why would anybody do that?
Speaker 3: Can I offer a thought? And I understand that a
Speaker 3: lot of people are working really hard to try to
Speaker 3: figure out a way or reason not to carry a
Speaker 3: gun because they don't want to carry a gun. I
Speaker 3: get it, understand it. At the same time, I think
Speaker 3: you gotta understand that some times there's just no reason
Speaker 3: to this, no rhyme or reason to it, there's no
Speaker 3: logic to it. That guy may have multiple convictions, he
Speaker 3: may have a car full of illegal guns and marijuana
Speaker 3: and other stuff, and when you flip him off, that's
Speaker 3: all the justification he needs. So Number one, drive meekly
Speaker 3: and mildly. Don't honk your horn, don't cut people off,
Speaker 3: don't tailgate them, don't break check them, don't flip them off,
Speaker 3: don't do any of that stuff. You have no idea
Speaker 3: how incredibly violent or murderous that person is. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: all I did now, no, no, no, there's no all I
Speaker 3: did was. The other thing is if you do absolutely
Speaker 3: nothing wrong, he can still perceive that as something that
Speaker 3: you've done. And I just offer the thought of the
Speaker 3: whole what are you going to do when you start
Speaker 3: working your way through the scenario, each step along the
Speaker 3: way and it gets worse and worse and worse, and
Speaker 3: you get to that final stage, what are you prepared
Speaker 3: to do in the way of what you have with you,
Speaker 3: your tools, your training, your willingness, your awareness. Are you
Speaker 3: ready to drive over the curb? Are you ready to
Speaker 3: drive through somebody's yard? Are you willing to do whatever
Speaker 3: it takes to get away? Are you willing to run
Speaker 3: your car into his car push it out of the
Speaker 3: way so you can escape. Now, you can always call
Speaker 3: the police later and say this is what happened. You
Speaker 3: cannot not well at least, you cannot come up with
Speaker 3: a plan on the fly. It's probably not going to
Speaker 3: be a good plan. But you can sit in your house.
Speaker 3: You could come up with a plan. I will do
Speaker 3: this if this happens, I would do that. And I'm
Speaker 3: just going to tell you at the end of all
Speaker 3: of that, if everything escalates and goes south badly and
Speaker 3: he wants to break out your car window and reach
Speaker 3: in there and grab you, he's going to do whatever
Speaker 3: he wants to do to you. If you don't have
Speaker 3: a way to stop him, He's going to do whatever
Speaker 3: he wants to do to you and anybody else in
Speaker 3: your car, your family members. I just offer this to say, look,
Speaker 3: you know you need to think about this stuff. You
Speaker 3: need to think about it ahead of time and when
Speaker 3: you think about it, to come up with a plan
Speaker 3: and then start executing the plan. The plan involves getting training,
Speaker 3: probably having a gun, and also being prepared to take
Speaker 3: evasive action with your car and understand what that involves.
Speaker 3: I wish we did not have to talk about that,
Speaker 3: but wishing and hoping is not a plan. So make
Speaker 3: a plan.