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Speaker 1: With Laurent's segle and from London and Gerard read from Berlin.

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Speaker 2: This is redefining energy today.

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Speaker 1: On Redefining Energy, Laurno. We're going to bring an old

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friend back on the show, aren't we.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's David's Casebrook, the Brook in queen Brook and

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reading on the show five years ago, very popular episode

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episode sixty six. The things have changed so much so

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it was probably time to bring in and discuss all

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this data center and the revolution of twenty fourteen power development.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's what I love about David is

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these guys have been at the forefront of this renewable

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stuff for twenty five years over and I mean always

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at the forefront of that. They're not just an infrastructure

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investor really are. They're local and sort of saying, well,

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where's the future going? And that's creator. Yeah, we need

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to have Drap back on again. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And for the people who don't know queen Brook, it's

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a mid size specialties fun They have executed twenty seven

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billion dollars two hundred and forty projects. They've built more

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than forty gigawad operating across US, UK and Australia, and

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they're so good. Definitely punching above their weight. And of

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course at some point we're going to enter in the

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data center realm. And here they've developed out of thin

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air a company called Rowan, so you can hear about Rowan,

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which is one of the top three successful data centered

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developer in America. And they just signed a Chinamos did

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with Blackstone one billion dollars. Very very impressive. I'm keen

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to hear what David is to.

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Speaker 1: Say, So let's bring another show.

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Speaker 3: David, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 2: It's so nice to see you guys again. I can't

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believe it's been this long. Always a pleasure to talk

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to you too.

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Speaker 1: Well, David, maybe just kick off this and I think

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actually the last half another show was almost five years ago. Yes,

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you've been in this renewable space for almost a quarter

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of us and shit at this point in time. But

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I'd love to hear what's changed over the last five

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years for you, and then you know, we can probably

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dig a little bit deeper into Quinn Brock and what

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you're doing differently and then really talk a little bit

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more about the future. Now, that's what we'd love to

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sort of go through today. But startup, and what are

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the big things that you look at and say, wow,

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this is what's changed. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look, I would say if I go back five years,

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I'm thinking, you know, twenty one, twenty two. Back then,

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the big things that we were pondering were getting out

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of wind on shore wind and into solar and storage

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in a fairly big way. And the projects that we

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were doing were persuading us in that direction, largely because

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on the solar and storage side, you know, with our

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Gemini project in Nevada, which it was just cost based,

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we were looking at the potency of those two technologies

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combined together. There have been a lot cheaper since then,

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but of course both in time of day, but in

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overall Lcoe they were unbeatable. And on the other hand,

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we were finishing up about a five year build of

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our Scout wind platform and it was occurring to us

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that we saw that the fund was going out of

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on sure wind from a risk adjusted return perspective. For

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a couple of reasons, particularly in the US, we saw

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it as a cluster technology, which means everyone develops it

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in the same location, and that Tier one wind sites

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and then did Tier two, etc. But that particularly in

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the US with the production tax credits led to price cannibalization,

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and so it was a very very difficult period to

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think about sort of consistent returns with so much volatility

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being driven by too much capacity going into the same

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node or into the same connection. And of course then

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we started to see price separation between your connection point

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and irrelevant pricing node from a customer point of view,

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So to us, you can't really diversify yourself out of that.

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Very difficult back then to contract your way out of

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that from a hedging perspective, and so there was really

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a really huge turning point for us was the decision

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to get out of on shore wind and into solar

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battery storage, which at the time and in the five

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years since, we saw it back then as the engine

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room of the energy transition. We were a pioneer of

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solar and DC coupled storage, and that was with four

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hour solution back then. Everything that's happened since then, I mean,

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it's more than eighty percent of most grid cues. It's

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now the dominant technology combination, and certainly in the markets

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where we're active. And so I would say that technology

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trend based on cost. The sheer cost competitiveness and the

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time of day service that solar and storage could deliver

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because turned out to be absolutely right.

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Speaker 3: So in the past five years, the financing condition, so

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you've seen more investors come in, the risk profile changing.

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How has it evolved because at the same time the

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interest rates have gone up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say it. In the early days, the novelty

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was in being in the sector itself, and so there

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was reasonable return capture through the whole development cycle. And

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when money was cheap, M and A strategies and renewables

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attracted a lot of institutional capital. There's a lot of

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new entrants coming in. I mean, generalists were turning into

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renewable infrastructure. Generalists were having renewables represent the largest component

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of their funds, of their core and their core plus funds,

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and so money started to flow into the sector. Generalists

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took significant amount of that capital. M and A strategies

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really dominated a lot of the capital flows that went

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into the sector, and there were reasonable returns I mean,

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in a relative sense, reasonable chance to be had through

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those M and A strategies. I think in that time

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we've seen a lot of capacity build, a lot of

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capital flow, both on the equity and debt side to

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a point where where we are today, a lot of

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the institutional capital that we speak to around the world

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has kind of got their allocation of what they would

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sort of refer to as generic megawatts or the sort

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of the more or maybe the core plus strategies that

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have suffered a lot with interest rates given these discounter

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cash flow assets. As interest rates go up, wax go up,

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navs go down, that's put a lot of pressure on

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some of those historic sort of M and A strategies,

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particularly things that were bought aggressively in competitive auctions. They

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haven't performed very well. That's been a little bit of

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appall over renewables sitting in their portfolios. That has tempered

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appetite for more. Fast forward to kind of where we

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are today, I'd say from where we sit, particularly a

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lot of institutional capital looking for differentiation in the strategy.

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They're looking for differentiation in the returns. They're looking for

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new ways to play infrastructure within the energy transition. So

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we're kind of in the age of the specialist and

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we're in the age of differentiation. And the other thing

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I would say is you look at the evolution of

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investment product that's been created and offered to the capital

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that flows into the sector back not that maybe five

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years ago you had solar funds and you had very

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technology specific investment funds that we're doing kind of one

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thing in either one country or a number of countries.

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And I think over that time what we've seen is

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investors now are attracted more to either technology agnostic, multi

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technology or diversified strategies that are across more than one

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way to play the energy transition. So that's part of

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that differentiation, and I think it's also a function of

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the fact that the return on investment and return on

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equity across technologies has largely commoditized. And so whilst we

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know that there are significant differences technologically and performance wise

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in the way these assets behave and a lot of cases,

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a lot of stres srategies, you're not getting rewarded for

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that differential. And so the choice in terms of the

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fundamental risk beta, whether it's construction, whether it's operational, you're

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not getting compensated for that, particularly using sort of M

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and A strategies. And so the market has sort of

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tended to shift towards more value add where the investor

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is investing more for sponsors that are differentiated in the

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way they go about creating a higher return and sort

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of mitigating their risk position on the downside, and moving

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away from those generic megawats that sort of still necessary

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for decarbonization. It's just not as interesting for investors to

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deploy a lot more capital in that direction. It's far

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more going into the value add strategies.

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Speaker 1: David May, I just follow on this because the one

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thing that I would see when I'm looking at a

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lot of your competitors is exactly what you said, I'm

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going to be more brutal than what you said. Is

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all they've done is they have run power plans from

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Excel sheets for the last fifteen to twenty years. Now.

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You've been very different now because I even just go

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back to the fact that you bought a flexibility platform,

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you realize that you had to sort of become an

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energy services company, and you didn't use that phrase, and

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I'm just curious why you didn't have that phrase energy

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such system.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question. I mean, it probably touched on

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something I should have mentioned in response to Laurren's question earlier,

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which is what's happened in the last five years for

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US is we're thinking thematically these days, and we're investing

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thematically because at the end of the day, our job

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is to deliver the same thing from an investment outcome

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and performance perspective. It's a rinse and repeat exercise. But

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of course, in terms of our return targets and what

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we're offering for our investment services doesn't really change from

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decade to decade mid teens plus, but what we have

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to do to achieve it has changed fundamentally a year

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to year, vintage to vintage, fund to fund, market to market.

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We have to to reinvent our strategy each time thematically,

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and so we've learned to invest now more by choosing

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a select number of thematics which are directionally where we

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think we can apply our skills and generate these value

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add returns. And so we don't think in market terms,

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or we don't think specifically in market or country terms.

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We think thematically and we try to apply those thematics

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across all of the markets where we are active. And

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the most significant part of that is that our strategic

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focus has shifted entirely to being customer centric, so we

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are solving problems and to solve problems for customers. Customers

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don't care what technology choices you make. They care about reliability,

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they care about impact, they care about cost, and so

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when we think about the tools we need in our toolkit,

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they are all the things you mentioned. Yes, of course,

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we have to have full suite development capability across all

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all the bank of all proven technologies. We need to

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be able to mix them and compliment them to achieve

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a supply profile that matches what the customer needs. But

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then we need to do more than that. We need

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to algorithmically optimize batteries using AI. We need to do

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that through the whole project development suite, and we need

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access to flexibility. We need to fill in the gaps

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going back to what I said in twenty two, the

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missing hours problem. Since then, we've developed an eight hour battery,

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now working on a twelve hour battery. It's purely designed

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to be able to deliver that twenty four to seven

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profile to data centers or steel mills or smelters, because

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that's the problem we're increasingly trying to solve. We're not

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trying to develop mega watts just to stick into the grid.

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We're trying to develop a services and a solutions project.

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Or combination of projects that solve a customer's problem. So

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I'd say over the last five years we have pivoted

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entirely to being thematically driven solutions business in the energy transition.

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Speaker 1: Can I just dig on that a little bit and

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after question? Yeah, cool and again a bit a bit provocative.

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Here does that really sit in a fund structure? And

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where I'm coming from ante is at the end of

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the day, you've got a fund. At some point you're

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trying to get a return to someone to that song, right,

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So tell me how does that of fit in? And

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where is the secret SAP and all of our.

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Speaker 2: The secret source is that the capital lives in the

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fund and that's where it belongs because that's our fiduciary business.

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But we have an equivalent number of people over one

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hundred and hour in our project development, construction, design, operations, procurement.

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That's the secret source. We are finding over time. The

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only way we can consistently deliver differentiated value add returns

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with proprietary thematics that we are thinking about every day

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that solve customer problems is we have to be able

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to deliver those solutions ourselves increasingly, and so today across

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the Quinnrook pipeline. Even compared to say, five years ago,

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we were way more dependent on portfolio businesses that we

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were creating ourselves to execute a certain thematic. These days,

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we're still doing that, but more than half of our

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portfolio now is things that Quimrook itself is developing, site acquisition,

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grid connections, permitting, design, procurement.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Not only that gives us the ability to retain a

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lot of value and offer that value back up to

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our investors, but we're pursuing proprietary thematics that we don't

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want the market to know about, necessarily because we want

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to continue to be a first mover. So to answer

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your question, if you were just a fund manager, I

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don't think you can do all of that that needs

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to be done. That when I say we are thematically driven,

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we're customer centric. We can solve problems and create solutions.

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As just as a fund manager, it's very very difficult

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to do that. You can do it via portfolio company

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and assemble portfolio companies, but of course you've got to

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sell those portfolio companies at some point in time and

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then you lose all that capability. We still do that,

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you know, we still turn over our portfolio companies, but

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what we've done internally is create the enduring capability, the

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enduring skill set from project development side, acquisition grid. These

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are things that are common to everything that we do,

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and so being able to have that in perpetuity I

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think is really really critical. It's a critical differentiator for us.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the elephant in the rumor, well, not

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the different the herb of elephants, which well she was

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not pronounced four years ago, a Berlin pass data sentels

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and that has been a fantastic driver of your gross recently.

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Rather just shoveling make out what our work to the

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grid and let the grid take care of it more

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or less, let's talk about the past five years and

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our integration in the hyperscalar universe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is the biggest topic today, wasn't back in

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twenty one when we were on the blackboard trying to

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figure out I mean, in twenty one was obvious that

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hyperscale data centers were the largest virtual buyers of renewable power. Right,

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they all had net zero commitments, they were all doing

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the biggest PPAs. But one of the things that we

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noticed was that data centers were getting bigger. I mean,

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Gemini was supporting a two hundred megawatt data center in

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twenty twenty one for Google in Nevada. That was monstrous

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in twenty twenty one and in the desert, and we

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were like, what's going on. We had just like this

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light bulb moment where we said, the hierarchy of needs

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for data centers is changing to power first, and that's

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right up our street. So we looked across the landscape

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of the US industry, which hadn't gone hyper scale really,

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and AI wasn't a thing. Post COVID five G was

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a thing. Netflix was a thing, Zoom was a thing,

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Teams thing, and that was driving a lot of growth

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in power need and their full capacity of data centers.

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But we saw beyond that. We just thought, this is

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an exorable trend. And we looked across the industry landscape

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and they were mostly property businesses, like there were real

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estate trusts, and they were triple net lease where power

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was a pass through and they just signed up to

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the local utility and passed the costs onto the data

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center operator. So what occurred to us was we just

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need to expand our development capability. We're already finding sites

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that can host massive gigawattscale supply solutions. Why don't we

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expand our ability to find sites that also host these

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data center Think back to what I said before, We

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needed to get physical because the world was virtual, and

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in a virtual ppa world, you don't get paid for

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quality and you don't have any bargaining leverage when you're

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negotiating price and terms. But you do when you're physically

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delivering out of site where a customer needs access to

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all the things you're developing at that site. So, if

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you think about that collectively, we needed to go physical.

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We needed to expand our development capability to include places

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where you'd put a hyperscale data center that needed massive

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power supply, particularly renewables at the time, and needed to

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be well developed in the right location, at the right

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timing and the right price point. And so that's what

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gave us a huge conviction to go hard into the

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hyperscale data center Thematic empowered Land providing a customer solution

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for hyperscale data centers. Now, at the time, everyone said

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we were learning. They said, you guys are kidding. How

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can you waltz into the US data center industry and

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sort of crack it open with this idea of yours,

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and that inspires us being told we're mad or we

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can't do something. So I think our conviction wasn't wavered,

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and we went and did what we not know. We

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didn't know really about hyper scale data center busyesers and

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the customer perspective, and so we hired a whole bunch

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of people from the customer and we didn't need to

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be taught out to develop projects, but we needed to

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acquire the customer mindset to know what was the right

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thing to do at the right time. And that was

323
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really an important initiative that we took. So we started

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Rowan back in twenty twenty one in the US. I'm

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proud to say that from dollar one employee number one

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in that five years, Rowan is now number three data

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center developer in the United States, one of the fastest growing,

328
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has got three hundred and fifty people. You saw the

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deal we announced with Blackstone. But importantly, over that time,

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the power first is now obvious to everybody. It's obvious

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you've got data center company's buying power developers. It's the

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only thing that matters. It's the only thing that gets

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you a lease with any of the compute firms is

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power and timing of power, and so now it's obvious.

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But importantly, the delivery of the power solution, together with

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the land solution and the permit solution hasn't changed. It's

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become more acute and more obvious. And so the power

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element to the strategy is now more critical than ever.

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And actually people are paying big money and I'm paying

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a lot of value away to acquire that power capability

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along with the data center development piece. Probably it's our

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most successful investment. Is showing no signs of letting up.

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But I guess the most important thing beyond Quinbrook, of course,

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is it's entirely changed the supplied demand paradigm. And five

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years ago, no one was seeing the demand curve tilt

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up as aggressively as we're now seeing it, and we

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are in supply demand equilibria markets. From a pricing perspective,

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that's what drives the price and value of electricity in particular,

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and therefore data centers are having the single largest impact

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on affordability on available of capacity. Competition for capacity. You're

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seeing it in acute political reaction, in community reaction, in

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places where capacity is being saturated or is overbuilt. So

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this is really the issue of our age. Because it

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affects everything, you can't ignore it. Fortunately for us, we're

355
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in the middle of it up to our eyeballs. That's

356
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where we'd rather view the game from inside the tent

357
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because it is so fundamentally important and influential to everything

358
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in the sector.

359
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Speaker 1: David, I'm sort of curious about how far you go

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into this energy value chain within data centers and where

361
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I'm coming from, and this is I can understand what

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you're doing is you're bringing power to the meter, But

363
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if you look between the meter and the chip, it's

364
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all electrics at the end of the day, power electron acity.

365
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You've got capacitors in there, you've got batteries in there.

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Do you vertically integrate more into that or do you

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just leave the hyperscalers through that or how do you

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see that?

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Speaker 2: Well, people talk about the hyperscale is like they're amorphous.

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Speaker 1: They're not.

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Speaker 2: Every single one of them is different in how they

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approach their power strategy. But the pressures of time forcing expediency,

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which means the more you're able to do, the more

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valuable you are at this moment in time and So

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if you have long lead equipment that they don't have,

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if you have development capability, if you're able to provide

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behind the meda capacity, whether that's truck mounded gts or

378
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its batteries, or you've got a track record in you've

379
00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:37,319
got a long duration battery, you've got any of these things,

380
00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:39,319
you've got, the more tools you've got in your bag

381
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to solve their power issue, because they still think of

382
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,960
it like as a customer should power to the chip

383
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or power at the chip. That's what drives their business.

384
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That's what they need, and so they don't want to

385
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,680
have to compromise on that journey. But now the next

386
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,920
single biggest shift in the industry because of grid can

387
00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:02,640
community opposition is you've got to bring your own power.

388
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So now we're going through another evolution of the solution required,

389
00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:10,799
which I think is a partial answer to your question

390
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:14,680
that the hyperscalers can't just think about power at the

391
00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:18,240
chip anymore. They have to be accommodating to now some

392
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of the constraints of behind the meta solutions for power acceleration.

393
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,319
They may get grid power five years from now, but

394
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,079
the behind the meta solution has imperfections. The power quality

395
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,559
isn't necessarily as reliable as grid power, but that's Ford

396
00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:40,279
seeing compromises, and so that's changing the nature of the

397
00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:44,839
engagement between the behind the meta power supplier and the hyperscaler.

398
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Some of the hyper scalers are massively building out their

399
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,319
internal power teams because they need their own delivery capability.

400
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,720
That doesn't make the solution any different to whether it's

401
00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:58,640
a third party solution or any how solution. You're still

402
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,640
constrained by the art the possible technologically behind the meta

403
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,079
at a certain point. But technology is evolving in a

404
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,279
way that's helping that, so real time power management, algorithmic

405
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,920
optimization of the interface between the load and the supply point.

406
00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:17,880
But again, come back, I'll like to take the conversation

407
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,759
all the way back to episode sixty six, the missing

408
00:23:21,799 --> 00:23:24,400
hours and being behind the meter in twenty four seven.

409
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Our challenge right now and a lot of the projects

410
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that we're developing is we're getting very close to twenty

411
00:23:31,279 --> 00:23:33,880
four to seven power. It isn't the way we thought

412
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,319
we would be there. Necessarily, long duration batteries have taken

413
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a bit longer to get there, but we're probably at

414
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the cutting edge of that. But the urgency of the

415
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,319
power needs, particularly of the data center industry at the moment,

416
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,480
for particularly AI compute means you don't have time for

417
00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:53,640
a lot of that evolution, and you have to be

418
00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:57,319
more expedient in that solution, and that's why you're seeing

419
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,400
this move to short term gts. Eventually we think they'll

420
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,000
be and they're still doing backup generators in a lot

421
00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:07,400
of their projects. They don't have the time to experiment

422
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,960
with some of these new solutions, so expediency has forced

423
00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:14,519
us to fall back on what we know. But the

424
00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:18,400
innovation really is in the software and the control systems

425
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:24,359
that are able to do multi technology combinations of integrated

426
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,519
solution behind the meta. That's the next biggest shift that

427
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:32,039
we're seeing. What they say, necessity is the mother of invention,

428
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:38,000
and so now we're seeing a whole plethora of solutions

429
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,119
claiming to solve that problem for behind the meta supplied

430
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,559
to energy intensive load. That's I think one of the

431
00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:48,799
most fascinating developments we'll see over the next couple of.

432
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: David, maybe just one last question, because you're working internationally,

433
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,640
can you talk about the differences in the markets here

434
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,200
in particular, I'm sort of looking at the difference between

435
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,119
the you know, the US market and obviously the urine market,

436
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,319
but you're also in the Australian market as well.

437
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:10,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can pursue the same thematics with different gusto

438
00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:13,400
in each one at any given particular point in time.

439
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: But look, the.

440
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,319
Speaker 2: US is still a very very attractive market if you

441
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,240
can pivot, strategically, pivot and tactically pivot. Putting the data

442
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,079
center thing aside, which of course is the most acute

443
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,319
in the US, we're still doing a lot of solar

444
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,359
and batteries, and we're still doing a lot of particularly

445
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,319
green fuels we find very attractive in the United States.

446
00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:40,880
Despite the tariff profile they're making construction costs and procurement

447
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,359
cost more expensive, but there are still very fertile territories

448
00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:49,039
to be exploring in the US market. So I would

449
00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:52,599
say we have slightly detuned our focus there in terms

450
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,400
of overall capital allocation. It's far more specific in the

451
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,759
things that we're doing. Liquid fuel solutions, for decarbonizing, data

452
00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:05,000
center backup generation, things like that we find fascinating, and

453
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,000
we're going all in on those sectors, which we think

454
00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:10,359
the US is probably the best market in the world

455
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,359
I'd say in Europe the overall return profile has improved

456
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,240
for what we do anyway from what it was five

457
00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:20,880
years ago, where we stuck to our needing in the UK.

458
00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:26,640
UK it's a tougher market to develop to the return

459
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,119
targets that we seek. We're seeing some pockets of opportunity

460
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,400
now merging into Coloneal Europe that wouldn't have met our

461
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,640
return targets before, and I think that's partly out of

462
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,680
necessity as well. And so I think that the opportunity

463
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,799
set is broadening in Europe, it's still not quite at

464
00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:48,400
the same level of return opportunity for the sectors that

465
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,079
we're pursuing in the United States. And the one big

466
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,440
change in the last five years I also should have

467
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,039
mentioned the first conversation is Australia. In our opinion for

468
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,000
what we do right now, Australia is the most attractive

469
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:06,759
market in the OECD for US to develop these customer

470
00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:13,400
centric solutions aimed at industrial decarbonization. At this moment in time,

471
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:16,960
Australia is top of the pops for US across all

472
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,920
of our markets. And so the ability to pivot and

473
00:27:21,079 --> 00:27:25,200
refocus your efforts from your thematic focus and the capital

474
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,559
deployment in the markets that are offering you that value

475
00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:32,240
added returnal opportunities are hugely employed. It has always been

476
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,680
important because this market, as you know we met back

477
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,880
in the nineties, has moved in a series of closing

478
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,960
and opening windows and doors, and whether that's technologically or regulatory,

479
00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:48,240
or market or customer driven, it's really the ability to

480
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:53,039
anticipate those openings and anticipate those closings. And right now

481
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,359
it's actually a very fertile time to be investing in

482
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,039
all of those markets, but very subject to what you

483
00:27:59,119 --> 00:27:59,680
choose to do.

484
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 1: David, can I just ask you very quick about Australia.

485
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,200
There is the Australian opportunity there specifically because the fact

486
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,319
that just solar and batteries makes economic sense given just

487
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,000
the high levels of radiation or is it something else.

488
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,599
Speaker 2: It's a combination of things.

489
00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:14,759
Speaker 1: You know.

490
00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:18,279
Speaker 2: Firstly, they're closing a huge amount of coal plant in

491
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:20,359
Australia and it just needs to be replaced. Number two,

492
00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:23,759
we don't tariff solar and batteries in Australia. We import

493
00:28:23,799 --> 00:28:26,240
them all from China pretty much, but we get them

494
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:31,319
at wholesale compare they're triple the cost in the United States. Yeah,

495
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,160
we've got one of the best solar radiances anywhere in

496
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,720
the world. That solar irradiance and the land and now

497
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:42,119
transmission system in certain areas can be developed at scale.

498
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:46,559
In areas where we have a carbon intensive, electricity intensive

499
00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:51,079
industry that's desperately seeking to decarbonize, located right next to

500
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,599
deepwater export ports to law Asia, it's just got a

501
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,160
lot going for it. And I give this speech at

502
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,359
conferences going back to Adam Smith and the Wealth of

503
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,160
Nations where we talked about a country's factor endowment and

504
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,319
you think about what is wealth at a national level? Really,

505
00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:11,519
where's its genesis? These days it's no different And that's

506
00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:13,920
what really where Australia is coming into its own at

507
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,200
the moment. It's got everything, It's got an abundance of everything.

508
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:20,720
Its endowment is all of the above and a little

509
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,039
bit like the US as well, very different to Europe,

510
00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:25,160
very different to the UK, very different islands, very different

511
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,279
to Colonel Europe. It isn't and all of the above abundance.

512
00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:30,880
But I think if you think about how you exploit

513
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,720
the energy transition profitably critical minerals supply chains, Australia sits

514
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,119
right at the very intersection of this next era of

515
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,000
industrial resiliency and self sufficiency.

516
00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:49,839
Speaker 3: David, it's a treat to have you. Unfortunately you need

517
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,720
to wait another five years to come back.

518
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: Fair enough, we'll do another retrospective.

519
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:57,759
Speaker 1: No, it's really great.

520
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: So congratulation on your work and we always learn a

521
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,400
lot and I like the fact that you are a

522
00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,119
first mover. That's great. So congratulations and thank you for

523
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:07,960
coming on the show.

524
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:10,839
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jess Pleasure as always, thanks for having me.

525
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:15,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for that, Dave Lauren. I'm always blown away

526
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:18,599
by David because listen, my job is also to look

527
00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:21,440
in the future and see what's going on. But I

528
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,440
talk about it, he doesn't. It's just very impressive, you know.

529
00:30:26,519 --> 00:30:27,559
That's all. I would just say.

530
00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 3: Superb that's the title of the episode, and it's probably

531
00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:34,680
the most important things that he has said. It's this

532
00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:38,680
world of virtual we need to go physical.

533
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,079
Speaker 1: Absolutely, we need to go physical. Well set exactly.

534
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy.

535
00:30:58,359 --> 00:31:03,359
Speaker 1: Don't forget to read the show and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

536
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:05,400
or the platform of your choice.