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<v Speaker 1>Hey everybody, thanks for joining us on the nonprofits. Today's Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>February fourteenth. Happy Valentine's Day, but not such a happy story.

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<v Speaker 1>If you tuned in to our show on Wednesday two

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<v Speaker 1>days ago, then you saw us discuss really horrific conditions

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<v Speaker 1>concerning young children and how they are impacted by religion.

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<v Speaker 1>We are going to move to Australia with yet another

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<v Speaker 1>example of how young kids can become the unfortunate victims

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<v Speaker 1>of religious extremism, and AJ is going to take it away.

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<v Speaker 2>So in Australia, fourteen members of an extremist Christian culte

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<v Speaker 2>were found guilty of months laughter following the death of

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<v Speaker 2>an eight year old girl named Elizabeth Strust. She had

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<v Speaker 2>type one diabetes and her parents, guided by other cult members,

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<v Speaker 2>including the leader, with held her insulin optin instead to

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<v Speaker 2>pray for her healing. This led to her tragic debt.

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<v Speaker 2>After six days without essentral medical care, she died in

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<v Speaker 2>January twenty twenty two, but the court's recent verdict held

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<v Speaker 2>all fourteen individuals accountable for the roles in this preventable tragedy.

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<v Speaker 2>This story is from The Friendly Atheist by Herman Metta

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<v Speaker 2>on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you for that. So sad to lose such

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<v Speaker 1>an innocent kid, you know, not even having the decision

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<v Speaker 1>to make her or excuse me, having the authority to

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<v Speaker 1>make her own decisions about her own medical care, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>relying on your parents who withhold and ultimately lead you

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<v Speaker 1>to your death. You know, Rob, I'm not sure that

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<v Speaker 1>I understand why it was only manslaughter. Can you talk

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about why was it just out plain murder?

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<v Speaker 1>You know? How did we end up with a manslaughter verdict?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? So when I read in the article that the

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<v Speaker 3>parents were charged with murder and in the end, all

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<v Speaker 3>fourteen people were convicted of manslaughter, and in the verdicts

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<v Speaker 3>it says charge with murder, convicted of manslaughter, I was like, lo,

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<v Speaker 3>what how? Because another thing to say before that this

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<v Speaker 3>had already happened. She was she was sent to the

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<v Speaker 3>hospital and was I believe, I believe she was in

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<v Speaker 3>a coma. But she was hospitalized and they had a

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<v Speaker 3>scare with her diabetes prior to this, not even that much,

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<v Speaker 3>not that much before, so this wasn't new. So when

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<v Speaker 3>I discovered that it was manslaughter, I went into the

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<v Speaker 3>like four hundred and sixty seven sixty nine page document

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<v Speaker 3>to try to find the verdicts, and I found it

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<v Speaker 3>on page twenty one, so I just want to read it.

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<v Speaker 3>So ultimately they were convicted of manslaughter because of deeply

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<v Speaker 3>held personal religious beliefs. He says, after consideration of the

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<v Speaker 3>whole of the evidence admissible against mister Streus the Father,

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<v Speaker 3>there remained a reasonable possibility that in the cloistered atmosphere

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<v Speaker 3>of the church which enveloped mister Streus, and which only

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<v Speaker 3>intensified once he made the decision to cease the administ

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<v Speaker 3>stration of the insulin, he was so consumed by that

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<v Speaker 3>particular belief in the healing power of Gods promoted by

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<v Speaker 3>its members that he came to the full realization that

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<v Speaker 3>he never came to the full realization that Elizabeth would

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<v Speaker 3>probably die, believing instead that God would not allow that

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<v Speaker 3>to happen. So it was impossible for him to ever

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<v Speaker 3>be charged with murder despite any education that came before,

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<v Speaker 3>because it should have happened in the first place, like

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<v Speaker 3>it should have happened even if the first time she

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<v Speaker 3>went to the hospital didn't occur. But it makes no

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<v Speaker 3>sense to me, and in fact, must be true that

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<v Speaker 3>they went to the hospital, was told what would happen,

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<v Speaker 3>and then they didn't believe it. So therefore my beliefs

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<v Speaker 3>affect the law about how severe that is. That's actual insanity.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm very upset at this, mostly because when I first

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<v Speaker 3>took my notes on this fucking thing, I was like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 3>there must be some definition of manslaughter versus murder in Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>That means that they couldn't have been charged. No, no,

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<v Speaker 3>he just he just believed real hard and therefore it

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<v Speaker 3>is not murder. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>they've been they've been through this before. I mean they

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<v Speaker 3>should be held to a higher standard having already received care.

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<v Speaker 3>And my question would be, what does this say about

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<v Speaker 3>their God if in the first place, because we're talking

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<v Speaker 3>about a story that took place a couple of years earlier,

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<v Speaker 3>they had to bring her daughter to the hospital, their

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<v Speaker 3>daughter to the hospital.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyway, if they thought God was so powerful, why did

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<v Speaker 1>they have to bring her to the hospital to begin with?

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<v Speaker 1>And then yes, at the hospital, they should have learned

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<v Speaker 1>what was going to happen if this continued. And it

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<v Speaker 1>did continue, and then they were let off the hook.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it just goes to show that for

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<v Speaker 1>some reason, religion gets a special place and it really

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<v Speaker 1>damages people. It destroyed this young girl's short life, but

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<v Speaker 1>it certainly destroyed the parents and Helen I want to

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<v Speaker 1>kind of gears a little bit on that note, because

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<v Speaker 1>you do a lot of work with recovering from religion

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<v Speaker 1>and you come across people who have been badly damaged.

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<v Speaker 1>How does this story resonate with you based on some

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<v Speaker 1>of the people that you have worked with.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, it's just this story really like affects me, not

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<v Speaker 4>only as an you know, an advocate, but just as

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<v Speaker 4>a parent. But you I've heard stories that are of

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<v Speaker 4>like nobody didn't die, but of not getting proper medical treatment,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, believing and faith healing instead of getting like

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<v Speaker 4>mental health treatment. People believing that they had demons inside

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<v Speaker 4>of them because they have like autism, or they have

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<v Speaker 4>like some kind of medical condition that needs to be

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<v Speaker 4>expelled from their body, rather than getting like medical treatment

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<v Speaker 4>for these things. And this is what belief does to people.

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<v Speaker 4>Because you can believe in a god, I don't fucking care.

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<v Speaker 4>But when it's it gets to the extreme where you're

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<v Speaker 4>not giving people like proper medical treatment. That's when this

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<v Speaker 4>has gone too far because like as Hamant pointed out

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<v Speaker 4>our call, like one of the basic things you do

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<v Speaker 4>as a parent is cheap your kid's fucking alive. And

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<v Speaker 4>the fact that they knew they were told by menal

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<v Speaker 4>like you need to give your child your insulin. This

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<v Speaker 4>needs to happen, and they were so like, nope, God's

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<v Speaker 4>going to heal her. And guess what, she died. And

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<v Speaker 4>that's what happens because when people and it does real damage.

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<v Speaker 4>Because if let's just say she has survived and somehow,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, so grew up in these extreme religious beliefs.

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<v Speaker 4>As she got older, maybe she wouldn't and it wasn't

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<v Speaker 4>as extreme as this where you know, she has hype

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<v Speaker 4>one diabetes, maybe she has some kind of other disease

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<v Speaker 4>where she's not going to get proper medical treatment, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>until that other education and that other information becomes available.

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<v Speaker 4>And you also have to accept evidence. And that's the

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<v Speaker 4>thing about like extreme belief and not being able to

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<v Speaker 4>see the force from the trees and believing in the

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<v Speaker 4>power of make believe, like believing the power of magic

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<v Speaker 4>is just insanity.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's you know the fact that they knew enough

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<v Speaker 1>already to go seek life saving medical treatment in the

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<v Speaker 1>first place, should completely keep them on the hook for

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<v Speaker 1>repeated abuse. In fact, if this were me, I would

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<v Speaker 1>lose my mind. If my kid was sick, if there

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<v Speaker 1>was nothing that I could do, I would do everything

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<v Speaker 1>that I could do. And they didn't. They didn't, and

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<v Speaker 1>they were found guilty and they had a slap on

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<v Speaker 1>the wrist. But aj, is it only the parents and

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<v Speaker 1>the other family members that were guilty or is there

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<v Speaker 1>a larger, a larger cause at I.

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<v Speaker 2>Think it might be the system as a whole. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>the whole cult. It was like twenty something people in

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<v Speaker 2>that cult. I'm not sure we could blame the medical

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<v Speaker 2>professionals here, but somebody in the law making process messed

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<v Speaker 2>up here. Rob mentioned this wasn't the first incident that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>When she was about seven or eight, about five months

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<v Speaker 2>or so before she died, she had fallen into a

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<v Speaker 2>comma as well. Because it was exactly the same thing

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<v Speaker 2>they prayed over her, denied her insulin, She went into

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<v Speaker 2>a comma, and she went in the hospital. She weighed

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<v Speaker 2>twenty nine pounds at age seven. That's like the weight

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<v Speaker 2>of a toddler, all right, and she spent a whole

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<v Speaker 2>month in the hospital recovering from that. At that point,

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<v Speaker 2>her dad was sentenced to six months, but I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>sure what the reason was, but he did not serve

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<v Speaker 2>any time, and the mom was sentenced to eighteen months,

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<v Speaker 2>but she served only five. As soon as she got

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<v Speaker 2>out of prison, she was putt in parole. They did

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<v Speaker 2>the same thing Elizabeth Night, only twenty three days after

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<v Speaker 2>her mother was released from Joe right, So they did

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<v Speaker 2>the whole thing again. They'd learned nothing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, they didn't learn anything. And you know, Rob,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to go back to legal definitions and responsibility

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<v Speaker 1>and talk to you about how should the community or

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<v Speaker 1>the people of Australia in general feel about what the

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<v Speaker 1>legal system is saying is allowed. I would say that children,

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<v Speaker 1>the legal system is signaling to people that their religion

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<v Speaker 1>is more important than the safety of their children, and

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<v Speaker 1>I would not feel comfortable in that system. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know your thoughts on that.

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<v Speaker 3>More specifically, what the legal system is saying, because in America,

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<v Speaker 3>in most first word, where am I first world places

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<v Speaker 3>that you know, your intention has a big part of

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<v Speaker 3>the sentencing. So what this is saying is that what

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<v Speaker 3>you believe will happen is more important than what does happen,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's materially different from intention. Your belief is different

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<v Speaker 3>from your intention because I'm not a lawyer. If I

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<v Speaker 3>intend to kill someone in America, then that's murder because

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<v Speaker 3>that's my intention. Now, if I intend to do huge

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<v Speaker 3>amounts of great bodily harm but like really just believe

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<v Speaker 3>that God's gonna keep them alive, that would probably still

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<v Speaker 3>be murdered because like I'm intending to do things that

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<v Speaker 3>would result in death, whereas this is different. This is

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<v Speaker 3>your belief structure said that, Ah, they won't die. So

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<v Speaker 3>that's the problem. It's like, yeah, it's going to affect

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<v Speaker 3>the kids, It's going to affect literally everyone, because now

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<v Speaker 3>a person's personal belief about what should happen due to

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<v Speaker 3>magic Land has more import than what the rest of

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<v Speaker 3>reality has told us. That's actual insanity. Yes, someone failed

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<v Speaker 3>her in the legal system before she got there, and

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<v Speaker 3>the judge failed here after yep, yep.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think the medical community might have failed her

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<v Speaker 1>as well, you know, because because of the already documented

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<v Speaker 1>treatment and lack of care. If you will, Helen, I

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<v Speaker 1>was I want to talk to you about maybe the

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<v Speaker 1>lack of education, the lack of medical understanding, or maybe

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<v Speaker 1>even a failure of the medical system. You know, what

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<v Speaker 1>can we say about those things and how they could

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<v Speaker 1>have been used or not used to prevent this young

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<v Speaker 1>girl's death.

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<v Speaker 2>I really wish.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry that maybe Child and Family Services after the

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<v Speaker 4>first incident was keeping a very very close eye on

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<v Speaker 4>this family. I think that was a failure of the system,

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<v Speaker 4>because there was because they knew, they knew that this

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<v Speaker 4>is an extremely religious fan you know, they're all part

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<v Speaker 4>of this weird ass cult and that believed in divine healing,

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<v Speaker 4>which isn't a thing. And the child had been back

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<v Speaker 4>to the hospital in the hospital because they weren't getting

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<v Speaker 4>insulin and they got really sick, and just a short

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<v Speaker 4>time later, the child died. So that was a failure

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<v Speaker 4>of the system.

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<v Speaker 1>Jump in, go ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm so sorry. I just want to agree with you. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>it's worse than that, right, Their belief actually the relevant

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<v Speaker 3>their their church. Doesn't matter. Child went to hospital because

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<v Speaker 3>they were unwell, then was immediately hospitalized again for same thing,

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't matter what their church says, CPS should go. This

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<v Speaker 3>is a pattern.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, because because there's been other incidences of other

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<v Speaker 4>like in the United States where people that were had

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<v Speaker 4>extreme religious practices families. Then CPS got called because they're like, hey,

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<v Speaker 4>their beliefs are now causing harm to an innocent child.

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<v Speaker 4>There's been core cases for a blood transfuse is for

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<v Speaker 4>Jovah witnesses for children or doctors hire lawyers and go

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<v Speaker 4>to court being like, if we don't medically intervene, this

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<v Speaker 4>child is going to die. So that is a failure

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<v Speaker 4>of the system.

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<v Speaker 1>One.

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<v Speaker 4>Two I am sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, Actually, actually there are three other states. When I

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<v Speaker 2>was researching this case, there were three other cases, one

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<v Speaker 2>in Oregone, one in California, and one in Texas where

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<v Speaker 2>kids were type one diabetic. Children died because of the

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<v Speaker 2>exact same thing, faith Kulen being refused to insually and

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<v Speaker 2>diet and dying of That's.

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<v Speaker 4>The thing we like again, we always say, like your

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<v Speaker 4>belief is, you know, you believe whatever you want, but

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<v Speaker 4>like you swing your arms until you hit the tip

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<v Speaker 4>of my nose and then we're going to have a

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<v Speaker 4>fucking problem. And the thing is, though, is that the

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<v Speaker 4>swinging of the arms caused children to die. That's the

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<v Speaker 4>problem with like we were talking about with the back

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<v Speaker 4>lader story, like when people have these extreme beliefs, children

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<v Speaker 4>get her. I'm sorry, Like, like, your your main job,

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<v Speaker 4>your one of your main jobs as a parent is

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<v Speaker 4>to keep your child alive. And how do you keep

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<v Speaker 4>your childlife If a child needs some kind of medical treatment,

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<v Speaker 4>you get your child the fucking medical treatment.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm just very angry about.

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<v Speaker 1>The time is so fucked up.

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<v Speaker 4>So I just want to I just want I want

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<v Speaker 4>to read this right now. I just want to see

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<v Speaker 4>I just want to read what the judge said, is

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<v Speaker 4>that as so they were talking about the husband and wife.

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<v Speaker 4>As with her husband, the complete application of misistrusted part

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<v Speaker 4>of the legal duty she owes her daughter constitute is

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<v Speaker 4>such an egregious departure from the standard of care a

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<v Speaker 4>reasonable member of the community would observe in the same

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<v Speaker 4>circumstances as to amount to a crime against the state

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<v Speaker 4>that is deserving a punishment. Again, like her husband, when

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<v Speaker 4>her conduct was viewed objectively, it must be seen as

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<v Speaker 4>having involved grave moral guilt and disregard for human right. Now,

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<v Speaker 4>do I think that this she should have prosecuted them

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<v Speaker 4>for murder?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, Bob, We're gonna let's jump over to Rob. He

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<v Speaker 1>had an objection. No, that's okay, I got feelings.

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<v Speaker 3>It was just like, hey, like, but you want to

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<v Speaker 3>swing and swing your arms until the tip of mare knows.

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<v Speaker 3>But Helen, if I intervene in the swinging of your arms,

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<v Speaker 3>then I have impeded some of your rights to harm

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<v Speaker 3>someone else. Wouldn't that be wrong of me to stop

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<v Speaker 3>you from being able to harm others? That would be unjust.

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<v Speaker 3>So I want to take I want to.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a hot take. Uh you know, and not

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe I'm not taking side. I'm not trying to sympathize

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<v Speaker 1>with the parents, but I want to. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>look at this from an even more strategic view, if

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<v Speaker 1>you will, a larger a larger step back, and just

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<v Speaker 1>just let's just look at how religion impacts people. First

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<v Speaker 1>of all, it comes for the children first, It always does, right,

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<v Speaker 1>The children are usually the biggest victims. But those that

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<v Speaker 1>make it to adulthood lack the problem solving skills, the

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<v Speaker 1>logic to act like normal human beings. I mean, not

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<v Speaker 1>only did they lose their daughter, they refused legal representation.

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<v Speaker 1>Now got they only got the slap on the wrist,

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<v Speaker 1>which I am dumbfounded by But I mean they believe

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<v Speaker 1>that God would save their kid, and then they waltzed

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<v Speaker 1>in the church on murder charges and decided God would

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<v Speaker 1>protect them and so they didn't need a lawyer. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>this is insane. The things that religion makes people do,

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<v Speaker 1>not only to their own loved ones but to themselves

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<v Speaker 1>is asinine.

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<v Speaker 2>AJ go ahead, Yes, that's what blew my mind. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>Like they saw this child go through a whole month

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<v Speaker 2>in the hospital recovering from the first incidents, right, and

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<v Speaker 2>then she gets out of the hospital and mom gets

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<v Speaker 2>out of jail, and they're like, oh, hey, you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>let me try these second time because it didn't work

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<v Speaker 2>the first time, so maybe you will work the second. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>I have type one diabetes too. I have my my

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<v Speaker 2>glucosmeter and my installing pampan said it keeps me alive.

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<v Speaker 2>If I take this off, I will probably die within

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple of days, probably less than that.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's the thing. Insulin. Type one diabetics don't produce any insulin.

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<v Speaker 2>Insulin is like a key to the cells. It opens

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<v Speaker 2>the cells with the glucose kitchen and it gives you

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<v Speaker 2>on the energy that your cells need to survive. When

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<v Speaker 2>this process is broken, when you don't have insulin is

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<v Speaker 2>horrible on the body. Okay, like you're you're, you are

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<v Speaker 2>going to suffer from extreme thirst, nausea, vomiting, abdomino pain,

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<v Speaker 2>factive confusion, headache, muscle pains. This child went through that horrible,

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<v Speaker 2>horrible suffering for six days at home and they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>take her to the hospital. They just continues to pray.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like the massive amount of mental gymnastics that must

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<v Speaker 2>have come to there's just it's just so hard to

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<v Speaker 2>believe that people can do that because of their religious beliefs.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and on that note, you know, I'm gonna we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna wrap up the show. I'm going to open it up.

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<v Speaker 1>If anybody else has anything they want to add, speak

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<v Speaker 1>now or forever, hold your peace. Excellent discussion, guys, really heartbreaking,

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<v Speaker 1>really heartbreaking, And thank you guys. I love the emotion.

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<v Speaker 1>I love the heartfelt kind of relation to this girl

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<v Speaker 1>who will never know us. But you know, people should

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<v Speaker 1>know that there are voices out there, people like us,

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<v Speaker 1>speaking up and trying to make the world better for

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<v Speaker 1>you and still giving you room to practice whatever religion

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<v Speaker 1>you want. Just don't hit the tip of our nose,

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<v Speaker 1>that's all. And if you want to hear more stories

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<v Speaker 1>about us fighting for your right to worship, but our

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<v Speaker 1>right to exist without your worship, and keep tuning into

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<v Speaker 1>the nonprofits, and don't forget to check us out Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays,

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<v Speaker 1>and Saturdays at seven pm Central on YouTube