Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekenana Show.
Let's talk a little bit about something different today. Thomas,
how are you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. Thank you for hosting me. Yeah, we
can talk about we can change up the we can
change up the subject definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get back to the Cold War on the
next one. But I've read Yaki. I started reading Spangler
one of the essays that you recommended, and it just
speaks to me, really speaks to my heart. And I
know that Spangler and especially Yaki are a big part
of your of your thought, and you're where you've taken
a lot of inspiration from. So I thought we'd do
a little episode. And I think they go together because
Yaqui uses so many, so many spanglerisms and seems to
have really dug deep into his work and integrated into
his work. So I guess let's start with the original.
What is it about Spangler that attracted you first?
Speaker 2: Well, frankly, especially as the Cold War resolved, Spangler was
Spangler was one of these was one of the only
what would you consider esoteric kind of thinkers that they
came to before the Internet. There's a two volume it
was it was a bridge, but it was the it
was the two valume abridged version of the Cline of
the West. And I think Harvard University Press had put
out in the fifties with at the Double Check. It
was part of this whole series on political theory, like
Hans and Morgan Thou who's actually worth reading, and yes,
he's part of that. He was part of that Morgan
Thou family. And he was for a time, uh New
York attorney state Attorney general, and then and then uh
he was some kind of state department hancho. But at
any event, I think it was Harvard University Press. There's
this whole series on on like footable theory, okay, And
they had those at like my local like Cook County
Branch Library, like around like north of glen View and
come across Spangler and stuff like Instoration Magazine and the
like National Alliance Lit and stuff like that and something.
It was over my head because I wasn't I mean,
I was like a teenager and I hadn't really dived
into Hagel yet and like Aristotlin things. But what reallyion
on me was again, you know, this was like literally
as the Cold War was ending and there was. Discourse
was really weird then because it was still semi serious
and you had serious guys who were kind of weighing
in and what the implications were, you know, of of
Soviet collapse and what kind of globalism would look like,
and you know what the implications were just kind of
like across the board, you know, because everybody realized this,
this is this, this, this is a profound event. This
is like an Apockel event. To see what week it's okay?
And I was kind of seeking up sources to just
try and put this in better perspective, and there was
not much, I mean, there was this. I mean admittedly,
like I just said, you know that the tenor at
discourse was it was elevated committed today, But there was
not a lot of other than the kind of like
into history kind of midway stuff there. You know, there
wasn't a lot to put this in comic, especially for
a young person. When I started reading Spangler, what such
that I could understand it? And again it took me
probably about like a decade to really get like a
complete understanding of Spangler. But what jumps out of me
is the symbolic psychological quality to cultural forms and what
he called prime symbols of those forms. And I've always
been somebody who puts a strong emphasis on symbolic psychology. Okay,
and if you believe in your racial differences, I don't
just mean, you know, like at the biological level, I'm
not talking about you know, I'm not talking about you know,
the relative bone density of insular breeding populations. I'm not
talking about you know, people's ratio of fast which the slopes,
which muscle fibers, and I'm not talking about their IQ like.
I'm talking about deep meticultural phenomenon that for that that somehow,
some way insinuates itself into people's minds and conceptual horizons
across generations. Okay, it's not it's not clear exactly how
that happens. Okay, it's it's a combination of biology, it's
a combination of cultural learning. I mean, it's combination of
biology with culture and cultural learning as well as other
other I think epigen when I think of epigenetic variables
that are well understood. But Spangli really put this in perspective, okay,
that there are these prime symbols there, These things are
quite literally you know, characterize, you know, kind of the
the core uh the core essence of cultural forms and
and and the and these and these prime symbols resonate
pretty much through through everything that culture does, you know,
especially in power political terms, because that's kind of the
zenus of cultural activity in all kinds of ways. And
it's the most critical because there's existential considerations they're relating
to racial survival, but even everything from like the food
kind of foods they cook, you know, the kind of
that they favor, and like, you know, the clothing they wear,
and and the kind of you know, artwork they create.
You know, this this is basically how people understand themselves,
but not just how they understand themselves, how they understand
themselves in the world relative to other peoples, but also
kind of like what they view their sort of existential
narrative as as like as a as a self aware culture.
I mean that itself is kind of not kind of
that that itself is very much you know, like a modernist,
uh arguably postmodern sensibility. You know, people actually being like
aware of things like cultural horizons, you know, cultural conceptual
horizons and prime symbols they're in. You know, how these
things are impactful in terms of in terms of how
you know, people create a sustain you know, all all
the phenomena that we consider severally to be like cultural activity.
But the fact that you know, like like like awareness
of that and awareness of it is like a discrete
phenomenon that doesn't somehow like put people like outside of it. Okay,
so and and Spangler accounters for that too. But that's
the reason why. I mean initially that's like what really
kind of like got me into you know, deep diving
into into Spanglerian thought. But also you know, Spangler was
a one of the things I really put him on
the map. He had a renaissance in the sixties and seventies,
is people were kind of looking outside of uh you know,
the uh the kind of the kind of international relations
quantitative model for for understanding you know, cultural behavior. You know,
it's a lot and like I mean, that's definitely I'm
saying like youngin theory like came back into vogue too.
I'm not comparing the two. I think there's some value
to be found in Young, but I think Spangler is
quite a bit more of a rigorous thinker. But my
point is this kind of stuff came back into vogue,
like decades later. But you know, Spangler, he really was
like an inner war theorist, okay, And that's one of
the reasons why you know, Hitler wanted an audience with him,
you know, kind of anybody who's anybody in Germany, you know,
people you know, like like people on the far left,
you know, like reactionary monarchist types. You know, Hitler himself.
You know, Spangler was a man about town because he
was up on something people view as profound, but beyond that,
I mean, aside from you know, kind of the merit
on his own terms of his of his sort of
conceptual vision or his kind of theoretical model. You know,
he was very much observing these things, you know, kind
of like in their epoch, you know, and he was
he was very much you know, if you want to
talk about punctuated decline in crisis and you know what
and kind of like you know, a culture's self conscious
efforts to survive late bare not just the miss modernity,
but a miss you know, like an ex potential crisis
relating to you know, a power political event of truly
kind of like world scheeking proportions. I mean, that was
the Great War, and that was a situation of the
German Empire and to a lesser degree, you know, the
Austro Hungarian their Austro Hungarian allies. But you know that
and and and that, and there was not a lot
of real scholarship about that that could be viewed as
kind of the the air apparent that people like fit
the in my opinion, But beyond that, I mean, beyond
spending with cultural resonance, like in his epoch, he was
trying to answer the question like what was happening in Germany?
Like what you know, what there was there was some
kind of collision going on between you know, the way
people understood themselves, you know, racially and Parkley and you know,
their ability to live in the world. And uh, you
know this was both this This was both obviously like
intrinsically bound up with the Great War and that's why
the Great War happened. But also just like internally, it's
not some it's not an accident that you know, the
Bolshek Revolution you know, happened, you know, just on on
the immediate heels of World War One, and it wasn't
just because like well this was you know, a crisis
modality kind of attempted remedy, you know, as the Russian
state kind of collapsed on itself, like due to the
fact they were losing the war. I mean, yeah, that
was like an immediate catalyst, but that that was not
why it was. That was not why it was approximately
immerging in absolute terms, Okay, it was these things came,
these things emerged from the same like nucleus of causal
variables or operative variables, and you know, the inability of
culture is to kind of like not just live historically,
but survive as discreet you know, like kind of modalities
of human life an organization that really is kind of
like the crisis of modernity for European men, like non
whites and non Europeans, that impacts them too in a
huge way. The Japanese impacted just as much as Europeans were.
But what we think of now is the Global South,
Like they weren't really but like their kind of apocalyptic
event was. You know, the fact that European culture kind
of collided with their culture like while the Europeans were
enduring this process as well, and that really really cost havoc.
That's a little bit more complicated, but the fact is
that you know, now if you're gonna say, like, well,
Spangler did, this wasn't anything new, you know, Uh, Hegel
dealt with this. Uh, Nietzsche dealt with this and everybody
like on the nose kind of way. And yeah, that's true.
But Nietzsche was real likely talking about something different like
Nietsch wasn't writing about like power, political behavior and activity
and like very concrete terms. I mean, Spangler appears like abstract,
you know, to somebody who's like inundated with either analytic
philosophy or somebody who's kind of like you know, or
somebody who's kind of like uh habituated, like you know,
the kind of Anglo like rationalist tradition. But I mean
Spangler was very much it's like okay, like you know,
kind of like abstract and like airy and continental oriented
as he was in philosophical terms, he was he was
dealing very much with like emerging again like existential crises
that like Europeans we were dealing with in the epoch. Okay,
And that's not something uh that that that that's not
something that philosophers generally did. Okay. I don't I think
a Spangler it's kind of a pure like it's kind
of a pure like playable theorist, who's who's uh whose?
Whose kind of life's work was to identify, you know,
the historical process and his relationship the culture and race. Okay,
real Lard, I I I think the from philosopher is
kind of a dumb term in the modern age, but
I I whatever, I mean, even if we accepted as
totally valid, I think a Spangler is kind of in
the terms that I just described. But bring it back
a little bit. You know, so pre Internet, you know,
is like a fifteen sixteen year old kid, you know,
you're you're you you really really the tools you had
to kind of put things in perspective conceptually, you know,
it was what you could find it like you know,
the public library or like what you could find you know,
by like Poach, like cruising university libraries to grab what
they had. So I realized, like reading Spangler, like I was,
I'm like, okay, like this is putting things in the
spective in a way that makes sense, you know. In
this this especially, he's understanding kind of like the tragedy
of of the you know, the kind of the German
situation in the twentieth century. And from there, I'd run
across the name Francis Parker, Yaki a whole lot owing
in part too. I was always reading Willis Carter's stuff,
you know, American Free Press, which I still like periodically
pick up today. But Cardo is kind of a he
was kind of peculiar because, uh, in a lot of ways,
he was kind of just like a conventional like America firster,
like right wing type guy, like anti communists. But he's
the guy I really put Yaki on the map for,
you know, for like American audiences of just like regular people.
I mean, Yaki was doing some very strange things of
his life. I don't even in cunative terms. I mean
he was probably uh he was probably a Warsaw pack
intelligence agent. He was like kind of the cosumon Van
artists like JACQUI was trying to convince the man the
street of the merit of his ideas. You know, he
was discripped. I mean he I think the first front
Runavan period was like five hundred copies. And then I
mean that wasn't just because like he wasn't flush with money.
He had no intention of like distributing this, you know,
to millions of people. But and then even Cardo even
though Carlo's personal kind of ideological uh bearing didn't have
anything to do with Yaki. He was one of the
last people to see Yaki alive because when Yaki was arrested,
Carter went to visit him because he knew who he was.
It's not evenly clear like how that is. But Cardo
was a rich guy, and he was pretty connected and
he he seemed to just like know things until the
end of his life, like he I mean that that's
whole another episode that we could cover, like kind of
a mystery of willis Cardo. But if he read Cardo
Publication's nearly nineties, whether it was a noon tight press
books or whether it was you know, American free press
like Frantas, Yaki was always caught popping up, you know,
and so I'm like, what is this all about? And
in instoration they made point that like, well, you know,
Imperium is uh is the sequel to you know, Spanglers
Decline to the West and the Our Decision and you know,
man in technics and all these and all these things
are gonna severally caustic like Spanglers, you know, like diagnosis
of of you know, the the twentieth century, the Inner Warriors,
if you will. So I sought it out. I found
Imperium had used the bookstore. They specially ordered it for
me because that's what we had to do in those days.
And I started like diving into it. And the case
of Yaqui, Yaqui's polemics, some people think it's overwrought to
understand it. Yaqui was, uh, you know, he was he
was this upper class Uh he he was. He basically
like this upper class that kind of like Norrath store dude.
You know, he's using born in Chicago all the way.
He lived a lot of his life in Michigan, you know,
educated and Catholic schools, which at that time are kind
of elite, like at least where he went. You know,
people then like wrote in a kind of like flor language.
It wasn't a kind of like obnoxious, like moronic, soaring
language like like people attempt today. But you know that
a couple of the fact that Yaqui was a trial lawyer.
You know that that's kind of the way to understand
his style, which I understand like put some people off,
but I found it highly resonant because he was one
of the few I mean yaquently thought more like a
European than he did, you know, an American, and a
lot of that owes to his cultural Catholicism. I'm not
saying that punitively, quite the contrary, but so I mean
he he gets sexualized things a bit differently in somebody
like I would in terms of you know, what he
initially found himself attracted to or instinctively rather than initially.
But you know, Yaqui put he kind of put the
European experience in like an American context. He you know,
and tied this into a Hitler's significance. You know, the
people in Anglophone societies, you know who who found themselves
you know, sympathetic to the Axis cause in very absolute term,
which at that time you know, it was like very
much like a hot issue when there was more people
who felt that way than is often acknowledged. I mean,
the uh, you know, the America First Committee was not
something that I mean they had Broadway support. So I
mean that was I mean Yaqui's book, it was I mean,
reading imperiod. Part of it is you know apologia for
you know, kind of America First in like deep philosophical terms,
but also you know it. It puts in context the
then you know, emergent Cold War and what in Yaki's
view was truly at stake, and that was pretty revolutionary.
And Yaka made the point again and again, and one
of his essays, which is hard to find now, it
was called in the year two thousand, Yaqui predicted the
Soviet Union would break apart, just like Kennon did you know,
He's like, this isn't sustainable. You know, the USSR as
we know it is not going to exist, you know,
in fifty years. But he's like, Russia will still exist,
and at some point point we're gonna have to deal
with these people number one, you know, like us as
like you know, occidental white Westerners or whatever your preferred
kind of the scriptor is. But also you know, he said,
you know, his point was that like Russia even you know,
when when it when it's when it's when the kind
of artificial like modernist guys you know, of of communism
like sloughs off of it. It's it's gonna be truly
emergent as you know, a kind of antithesis element you
know to the uh, the basically judaic American you know, uh,
you know, uh, h Ethos, And uh, that's very true.
I mean Yaki was not like a Russophile in fact,
in a lot of ways, like he kind of looked
down on Slavs. And I mean that's clear. I mean
the guy who was very much like a national socialist.
So like everybody, people people have to be stupid on
purpose about Yaqui and for and either say that like
to sympathetic to cool Bolshevikism, which is fucking retarded, or
that he was like some kind of like Russophile who
just like love was like sitting around like I don't know,
I get like reading the Brothers Karmezov or something like.
That's not at all what he's saying. You know. What
he was saying is that, you know, a truly unipolar
world where you've got you know, basically kind of uh,
you know, you've truly got this. You know, you've got
a single locui of of a global power you know,
in America, and it's and it's kind of client regimes
all of which are basically you know, kind of reduced
to appendages of this this it's literally like you know,
Jewish and kind of deteriorated, you know, kind of like
post cultural anglophone mode of of of a I'm not
just you know, I'm not as like, not as a
cultural organization, but of like ethical disposition, you know. And
that's that's basically the worst possible outcome you can imagine
for culture, Okay, and uh, really the only way to
mitigate that is do uh it's for you. I mean,
Europe's gotta stand with Russia for pragmatic reasons. But also again,
like it doesn't matter if you like Russia or hate Russia,
this is totally irrelevant. I mean that Russia is the
natural counterweight to that tendency in all kinds of ways,
because Russia is basically anti American and Russia is basically
like rapidly anti Jewish. Okay, it's Russia anti European, Yeah,
they are. And don't understand the Bolshek Revolution is kind
of like, you know, the the kind of the kind
of primitive indigenous like Peasants Slavic element, you know, finding
common cause and alliance with uh, you know, the cosmopolitan
Jewish mercantile element to literally exterminate you know, the European
overtask that you know, had reigned and Russia since the
days of the Varangian Russ Okay, but that doesn't matter. Again,
it's not there's not a risk of Russia becoming this.
There is not. It has not been a risk of
Russia becoming this you know, truly global power since nineteen
eighty nine. It's this idea that like, well, you know,
Russia is just as bad as you know, what we're
dealing with. Now, that's not true at all. That doesn't
make any sense, and not just because in terms of
like power, projection, capability and potentiality, but you know the
reason why it sounds like a trivial thing, but the
one of the short poppings of warsaw pack and man control.
In terms of integrated forces, there was a short like
like like Russian officers wouldn't bother to learn German a
lot of the time, you know, there was like literally
like a language barrier between like them and like you know,
like you know, like national Volks, aren't you forcing under
their command? You know, things like there's just there was
like a distance there, you know, the like if you
want to understand how why the American and kind of
cultural genocide social engineering of Germany was possible, it's because
like an Anglophone society, you know, a basically cosmopolitan European
society like America still was, like America was definitely in
nineteen forty nine and still somebody is today that was
anglophoning character that's able to insinuate itself into into German
culture almost like at the cellular level. I mean people
say the thing of being silly, but I think it
almost like the thing, you know, like the Little Horror movie,
like that was just not possible for Russians, you know,
like the Soviet Union, even if they said about even
if you know, even if that had been kind of
like a dedicated effort of there is like look we're
gonna we're gonna truly kind of like rucify you know,
the DDR, it wouldn't have worked, you know, like it
just wouldn't have you know you're talking about truly. Yeah,
in like border areas especially, you know, like you would yeah,
there would have been people who are basically like you know,
like like Slavonic Germans, but generally like he wouldn't you
you wouldn't have had like every like you know, every
like East German school kid like just like casually learning
Russian by osmosis and like you wouldn't have had like,
you know, German ladies deciding y' all wanted to look
like the Russian women in the magazines, like you wouldn't.
I mean, like that just would not happen, okay, And
that stuff you better believe that happened in the boon
this republic, Okay. And it wasn't just because like, oh,
America's got good propaganda and Coca cola, you know, I
mean that's these are real things, okay. So all of that.
Taking it back to kind of get an original query,
I mean that that that kind of is what being to
like put the world in perspective to me, And I
always knew there was something wrong post Reagan. I think
Bush forty one was a pretty and within the bount
of rationality of you know, kind of uh of of
what American government is and has been in nineteen thirty three.
I think Bush forty one is basically a serious guy
and a good commander in chief, even if I I've
got nothing nice to say about him otherwise. But even
by nineteen ninety one ninety two, there was this kind
of like bizarre triumphulist language peeping into American discourse that
just made me WinCE, and you know, uh, I could
tell that the culture has been coarsened. I don't. I
don't just mean like, you know, things becoming kind of
like more like lurid and pornographics part of it, but
I mean like things would be were becoming like less
and less serious and just kind of like just more
and more like idiotic, you know, and it uh, you know,
I realized kind of like yawning chasm here where there
should be like a culture, you know, when it and
they had a couple of the fact that I realized
it's I'm everybody's sick of hearing this, and it, you know, sudden,
I just saw some cantankerous old guy telling people to
confort blessings. But the early nineties in America really were
like really fucked up. I mean you remember that, and
you know, like racilations were in the toilet, you know,
like I literally have to like think about like where
I couldn't couldn't go, like I'm talking about it, drones
like Chicago cooks like you'd like fucking get killed and
like you know, from being white and like that's not
that way.
Speaker 1: Remember the freaking Special Forces was literally in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, two.
Speaker 1: Thousand Korean businesses were burnt to the ground.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's more in the streets and the marines.
The fat of my Iraq, we're fucking shooting it out
with like the grave street crips and stuff. But you know,
like it's not like bad people think things are today
and then like a marriage in a bad place. They
don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna like if I
like disembarking Garbield park of the bus, like I'm not
gonna get my ass like fucking stopped into this cement
like for being white. That's not gonna happen, Okay. In
nineteen ninety two, that absolutely would happen. Okay. So it's
like all these things on like my teenage mind, like
YAQUI really put this in perspective, you know, I mean,
there's not I'm the first. I'm always telling people, especially youngsters,
like like you can't you can't like find answers to
the world, especially like politics, like in books, and you can't.
It's like the wrong there's not like a crystals version
into like you know, political occurrences or something. But in
fear terms, particularly in a place like America where there's
where there's there's like bizarre signaling and in terms of
the propaganda narrative that doesn't really make sense and is
that get distracted from any kind of concrete experience. It
is essential to have, you know, kind of like the
pole stars as it were, like the parameters rather like
provided by you know, like theoretical scholarship. And Yaki, Yeah,
I realized Yaqui is a polemisist. I realize he's like
a big national socialist. He's not, and he didn't like
for it to be like, oh, I'm this objective kind
of like diagnostition of historical processes. But Yaki, you really
put everything in perspective of me, like, Okay, this is
why the this, this, this is why the this is
why the problem in the ground with the races is
the way it's in America. You know, this is why
the culture seems so coarse and just like moronic. This
is like what it's trying to accomplish. You know, this
is why like the leadership cast seems so like flavoringly
like either just corrupt or disengaged. Because this is why
at that time in Europe two like you know, tu
Jma's Croatia like helmet Cole in a kind of one
of the most singularly patriotic acts post war by German
Chancellor immed the recognizing the pendent state of Croatia. Uh,
you know, and then and and then and and Bush
and Baker like hit the roof when he did that.
But that that's what prevented like, uh, you know, some
kind of a you know, some some some kind of
contrivance of you know, democratic Yugoslavia from enduring and uh
you know the Croati the twos one Croatio was a
national social state literally, okay, something that that came into
perspective too, and like why you know like that where
like that was that was quite literally unfinished business, you know,
from nineteen forty five. I mean that's kind of how
I me. That's pretty much like how it came to
Yackey and then I from there. Uh. I've uh, I've
kind of moved beyond like based just about everything I've
read I was reading when I was a teenager, except
for stuff like obviously like Aristotle and and and and like.
But you know, I continue to defend Yaki you particularly,
and I found I don't believe these like internet guys,
especially in university types I mean a lot of these guys,
they they never read what I write. I think they
like see the way I look or something, and they
they act like a haughty and like act like I'm
stupid or something. Then they realize like I'm not stupid,
so they just kind of like attack like what I
cite as like authoritative and the Yaki is ridiculous. That's
just like you know, you might as well read like
skinhead magazines. It's like, I don't believe you've read Francis Yaki.
That's what your take. Yeah, I mean it's not it's
it's intellectually highly rigorous, Like I said, you can say
his language is like overwrought in the way that frankly,
you know people who's kind of introduction to to uh
you know, like adult intellectual life of apprentis a lot
and that's unfortunate. But uh like you can't say it's
like not serious and then it's like some stupid like
racialist like rant or something like it's not you know.
So I don't I believe a lot of like what's
levied against Yaki, particularly by these liked of still appointed
like academic gatekeeper types. I don't believe they've like even
a right imperium, you know, put imperium is like seven
hundred pages. You know, it's like it's and it's it's
it's pretty heavy stuff, you know, like it's not just
that you can like flip through like a couple hours
on a Saturday. So I think a lot of like
what people say, you know, to kind of make fun
of people say, yuck, you don't think they really read it,
but they pretend it's like reading like George log and
Rockwell or something like. It's not it's not at all,
you know, like it's totally and uh, I mean the
point of people too. And this is a bit of
a tangent, but you know the Falcon and the Snowman,
which is a fascinating story and like a great film,
and Chris Boyce, you know, the guy, I mean, he
was a real guy. I mean that that movie really happened,
and basically it happened the terms presented. But he had
a blog in the two thousands when he got into prison.
He didn't got a prison until like two thousand and
three or something, you know, but he uh, you know,
and he didn't want to talk a lot about his
espionage charges, but he what he did say, and we
did reiterate, was that, you know, he had no affinity
for the Soviet Union or for communism at all, you know,
and he's like, I never started identifying as like as
a practicing cantalic. You know, he's like, but America couldn't
be allowed to just win the Cold War in absolute
terms any more than the Soviet Union to be allowed
to do that. And he was right, you know, boys
said that he had the energy and and kind of
fervor of a young man and thinking he could change
these things like you can't, okay, like nothing any one man,
no matter what kind of no matter what kind of
secrets or intelligence he had access to their military knowledge,
you know, could have like changed the course of of
of the Soviet Union. But his his impulse was correct, Okay,
even if it was like, even if it was a
youthful romanticism, and it was ridiculous to think like he
could change the course sumptionally o the way the wars
up bang was going. He was right that something terrible
would happen if America simply just like outright won the
Cold War. You know, there needs to be that kind
of uh. I mean, I think the American garments in
ninety thirty three is literally evil. But even if somebody's
got a softer, more terrible, charitable perspective on it than that,
you know, aganistic pluralism as well like chiefs, like politics,
like productive and I and you know, is what prevents, uh,
you know, the establishment of these uh of these these
kinds of deteriorated uh like monocultural uh you know, mechanisms
that that that basically suppressed culture where it's emergent in
any in any formness, you know, threatening the status quote.
I realized it was a lot there, but that's the
best way you explain it, all right.
Speaker 1: I wanted to go back to Spangler because in reading
u Qussian Socialism, there was something he said in there
that I think a lot of Americans and Westerners would
have a problem with, especially since you know, I think
he wrote that nineteen twenty. So he said that the
Englishman judges himself upon his riches and the Prussian judges
himself upon his rank.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so true to that. Yeah, I don't
Werner Sombard made a lot of the same points, and
the way to understand I mean, that's why to be
a bit more charitable to the English, you know, the
the UK and England itself. It's it's an inception. It
was a divided society. There wasn't some like single ethnos
that became the English people. I mean, you know all
of this, but you're an Iran educated guy. But like
that's gotta be this this idea of like this homogeneous
kind of England. And it's why I especially bizarre when
you know the kind of cargo cult multiculturalism in England.
It's like it's like England's always been like catastrophically multicultural.
They didn't even get a handle on this, arguably until
the twentieth century. You know, like the experience of Prussia
was totally different. I mean Prussia was this garrison state
you know, with uh like with that with with barely
any arable land, no, no naturally defensible you know border features.
You know it Uh, it basically makes sense and I
don't disagree and this, Uh, that's one of the reasons why,
like you know, class antagonism has conceptualized, and that's that's
one of the reason why I was off based for
for for Mars to look to Germany is like this
is where like you know, Mars's Leninism is going to
be this where you know this where you know, common
is gonna be emergent. Then later like lenin Like attempting
the same the same enterprise or attending to implement that
enterprise is is theorized by Mars like it, Yeah, okay, Germany,
like obviously it was gonna be first over the line
in terms of the productive productive forces that could facilitate
you know, uh, like true socialism in the sense of
vision by people like Marx. But the class antagonists catalyst
is not really present in Germany. I mean it's not
to say like the KPD wasn't very strong, but again,
like the KPD got defeated and of you know what
I'm always do, like a fair fight by the right
in Germany. I mean that didn't happen in Russia. Obviously,
the opposite happened because you know, in spite of the
lack of the technics and infrastructure, the class antagonism was vicious,
you know. And in the UK the reason the British
were paranoid, absolutely paranoid about Bolshevism, they were for good reasons,
you know, I mean, there there was uh, there was
there there was this basic class antagonism. I mean at
the point that it's it's it's like you could argue
that like in some ways like the what people kind
of politely and you physically approves like the big classes
class system. I mean you're talking about people are basically
like well private purposes, like different ethnic roofs, man like
they and genetically I think they'll dare out too in
some sense. Okay, Like it's not it's that that's quite
a different thing than you know it plays like Prussia
where uh like like you really do have like a
common culture and yeah, I mean there's people, you know,
there's people like higher rank and lower rank, you know,
and there's there's obviously you know, people have of vastly
disparate abilities, but you don't have like one class of
people concentrated, you know, in like one function like looking
across these other people who are like literally totally different
from them, Like they like look different, they talk different,
they act different, you know, like they their customs are different.
Like it's just not that's not the case. So I
think that's basically true. And it's also it you know
stand Barts and uh, there was a whole point too,
was that there's something, uh, I mean the there there
there there is something. Uh, you know, cultures are kind
of like someone to drift in history. I mean the
way I mean, the way they manage these like emergent challenges.
I mean, obviously that's evolutional, but there's also this this
idea that uh, this idea that like if we ignore
like this kind of impulse or socialism, it will go away.
And if we like outlawed, or if we you know,
or if we just you know, or if we make
it fair to everybody that you know, there's there's not
a limited amount of wealth in the world. And you know,
if they if they just developed the gumption and industriousness,
like the two, can become rich. And that's not this
not the way things work. I'm not even saying like
ethical terms. I mean it's just like not like like
man individually or or man severally or collectively, you know,
at at at the at the cultural level and as
regards as historical enterprises is not is a very limited
participant man, you know. And there's something cotton E. Europeans
always understood that, or rather accepted that in a way
that the English didn't. It's not my purpose is here
in just like trash England is you know, is I
know some git's a hobby for some people, particularly in
our circles. But this idea that you know, oh, we
can just author you know, like we just kind of
we can just kind of like author like a well
functioning society by you know, resorts you know, kind of
like sound principles of economics or something like this, or
by resorts you know, like social science, like that's actually
a very, that's actually a very, that's actually like a
very anglophone thing. I think that's part of it. All
those things, but I don't put them in a lead disagree.
You know, you have sometimes overstated.
Speaker 1: When you read a lot of the writings from the
early twenties. I just read Schmidt's political theology on the show.
You you see that they're struggling with this new world
that you know, World War One changed so much, and
now you know, if you have a monarchy left, it's
a parliamentary monarch. He had some monarchy had name. Only
when Spangler is looking at Europe and he's seeing those changes,
how is he how is he interpreting what he sees?
Speaker 2: I mean the uh well, I mean it's again he's
there's there's a common strain in Spangler and Schumpeter and
in and in Sombart the reason why socialism was on
their mind. You know, Speter was Trumpeter, like Spangler was
probably the most like anti socialist figure. You can imagine.
Like they didn't say it. They weren't saying socialisms and
inevitability because oh, this is the merchant history and this
is progress. They're saying that. You know, once like x
level of development is accomplished, and when you have verstal suffrage,
you know, people are going to like vote themselves more. Uh,
They're they're gonna they're they're gonna say the golden goose
by voting themselves in in in the tunery. Okay, Like
as a culture, how do you manage that? You know,
it's like, well, if you have that, what you know,
the Germans used to call the mentioned material to kind
of mitigate that because you have an industrious people, you know,
you do whatever you can, uh, you know, kind of
martial those energies you know towards uh, towards things that
facilitate you know, competitiveness on the world market, you know,
and that you know, frankly facilitate you know, the ability
to to uh, to constitute a fearsome army that can
appropriate what you can't produce at home. But this is
an ongoing problem and with the absence of a mitigating
you know, the kind of the kind of a fatalistic
the understanding of the kind of like fatalism of of
of of God's dominion, I mean, is the way I
logantic I'm a Bible prod or you know, if you're
just some kind of agnostic who nonetheless accepts you know that,
you know, the process of history is something that man
is not truly the power to shape for control. You know,
You've got you've got to become comfortable with like a
certain amount of like, you know, surrender to these processes.
They're like greater than man is. Okay, the the deterioration
of government into this guy you know from you know
kind of the kind of you know from kind of
like you know, the on the nose like theological kind
of symbolism a monarchy, and they're just kind of like
a parliament to take a glorified public works administration that
that that has a very corrupting effect. And uh, that's
why Spangler, you know, he held out the Prussian state.
It's not like it's not like span some like military
man or some Prussian martinette himself. You know, he was
he was he was like he was kind of like
the consummate, like you know, burger type. Uh. And he
was you know, like a bookish, kind of like timid guy.
Like what he was saying was that, you know, really
the only state that can survived this process, you know,
with an with an intact culture that is prone to
you know, things like you know, sustaining it's it's it's
human quality with you know, with appropriately hygienic praaspets practices
figura me literally, and that you know, is capable of
you know, generating the wealth that's going to be you
know rapidly kind of cycled through and consumed you know,
by the voracious monster that is you know, the you know,
the the parliament, the europe the modern parliamentary parliamentary democracy.
You know, a state, a state with the Prussian ethos
extrapolated you know, to to potentially a continent size uh,
great space, great sovereign space would would be what's required.
And I basically agree with that, and I mean that's
why that is obviously in my opinion, like what got
Hitler's interest in Spangler's stuff? You know, Hitler read looked
at maps all the time for the time he was
a little child, like literally and like until he died,
until like literally like the week he died. He always
had his maps and his colored pencils, and you know,
he he was fixated on geography and you know, implications
they're in both tactical and strategic as well as you know,
culturally and informative capacities. But Hitler didn't sit around reading
like like geopolitics all day. You know. He was int
stuff like Schopenhauer. He was into like I mean, it
was his favorite like philosopher, you know, and he was
into he was into like art theory and stuff like
i I've never heard of before, you know. And he
was into like you know, he was into like you know,
heroepics and German histories. But it's not like Spangler was
kind of thing he ordinarily would have just like been like,
oh this is great, you know it God's attention. Not
just because Spangler again was a guy who had a
lot of clout in the Inner War years. It's because
like that what I just described, like that is what
spoke to Hitler and like basis for that is not
just the table talk, but it's the December eleventh, nineteen
forty one speech to the Reichstag, and that's an important
speech for all kinds of reasons. But Hitler, Hitler's talking
about the Prussian experience in uh in eighteen thirteen. He's anything,
but he's not. He's not saying the Prussian kingdom. He's
saying we. He's saying he's talking about the German vogue
is synonymous with the Prussian state. Okay, And this was
in Hitler was the Habsburg Austrian saying this. I mean
that that to me that it's abou outside the scope.
But that's what convinces me. That's convinced me of what
I just said. But that's basically Spangler's notion. I mean,
there's more, there's a lot more there, like in his
body of work, but in terms of what he in
terms of the prescription for how the stage should be
configured and what it's UH and what it's sort of
like guiding UH ideas should be. You know, that's that's
what he's getting in and that's what he's concerned with,
and that's what everybody was concerned with and uh you know, yeah,
I mean that's trumpter and some are because like I said,
I mean they they were quintally concerned the same fundamentally
considered the same thing is because these are questions of
existential imperative significance.
Speaker 1: Let's let's do Yaki now, you and you already mentioned this,
and this is probably the thing that anyone who knows
who finds out something about Yaqui wants to question or
once to use to dismiss him. It's his embracing of
the Soviet of the Soviet Union and his reasoning behind that.
And I think a lot of people look at it,
would look now and look at the world and be like,
if somebody is honest, they'll be like, well, I think
he was ahead of his time and his thinking in this.
But it's still really hard because you know, we've gone
through this whole, We've had seventy five years of of
the Soviet Union. Was the was our enemy. I mean
we grew up in that way, We grew up that way.
The Soviet Union was was our enemy. You know, if
bombs start dropping, hide into your desk, crying of kind
of crap. So Bayaki saying that the Soviet Union was
that he would support. He was supporting the Soviet Union
at that point. You know, can you go it a
little more into detail his reasoning behind that.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, first and foremost and kind of
the most in the most basic terms and a basic
strugg full terms. It's what I said when I referenced
Chris Boyce with nothing in common with yacky, but I
but in in in Jewish, in geopolitical terms, that that
was that that that was, that was the structural issue. Okay,
an American, an American hedgemond would lead to what you
see today. You know, it would lead to the social
engineering of of race out of existence other than the
Jewish races. As a matter of course, like literally at debate,
that's not something conspiracy theory that's literally baked into the
American ideology. Okay, and uh even even really not the case.
You don't want in in a twenty first century You
did not want to pack sramana in a twenty first
century world, Okay, you just don't. That's not You do
not want great power monopolization of global resources, like singular
great power monopolization of global resources. That's going to be
a tyranny no matter what. So just an absolute like
a political terms, structural terms is that. Secondly, Yaki always
Yaqui's all big point was that he said that like
and then again, part of this is kind of like
a cultural Catholicism, but I'm not saying that cumatively at all.
Yaki's point was like, look, you've got to look at
yourself Americas. White Americans need to look at themselves as
as basically like Europeans who live in a new world, Okay,
because if you don't, you're gonna make compromises that ultimately
like write you out of history. Okay, and that's what
happened in nineteen thirty three New Deal America. And beyond,
it's singularly anti it's anti Western, it's anti white, it's
anti European, and like why wouldn't it be it views
all these things as alien to itself. Okay, it's basically
Jewish such that it has like a cultural orientation at all.
Like the people constantly do it who aren't Jewish, like
they might as well be because they don't care and
like what they don't view as hostile, they simply have
no interest in preserving. Okay. The only way Europe can
survive is Europe hass to join with Russia. Now Yatu
would have preferred, you know, that to have occurred with
you know, you know, the capture of Moscow in December
nineteen forty one, because that didn't happen. Well, we have
you know, we have the world that we have, not
the world that we want. So the only way that
Europe is going to throw off the American yoke is
by sometime of concord with the Soviet Union. And after
nineteen fifty three he said that wouldn't be particularly in city.
It's like, yeah, Soviet occupation is a tyranny, but you know,
it's like elite de ben was was that the tyranny
of the body. You know, whether Stalin intended to do
this for sectarian and ethnic reasons or whether he just
did it for practical reasons. Because these people constantly with
a threat you know, to the to not just his
own mandate, but the enduring power of the party. Stalin
literally perd Jews from leadership in the Communist Party of
Soviet Union, Okay, and he did so in a way
that was fairly above board. That was that was Yougi's
point about the Prague Trials, Okay, every I mean out
of the Prague Trials were I mean of a of
a satellite regime, you know, it's a satellite regime that
was the subject of it. But it was not either
because that was kind of like a test case. And
every one of the Doctor's plot defenders with Jewish but one, okay,
And it's like that, so we don't even trying to
hide was underway here, you know, just like we don't care,
like these people are these people are are Fifth Palamnists,
like they're gonna die, you know, so okay, Yeah, like
in Germany, Germany in nineteen fifty or ninety sixty, you know, uh,
in concord with the Soviet Union. Yeah, the people there
were were gonna made him the heel of Stalinism on
their neck. But you know, they wouldn't be being genocided
out of existence, you know, like churches were going to
be replaced with the Holocaust museums. You know, like black immigrants,
we're gonna be flooded into the cities. You know, like
pornography wasn't gonna be flooded made available basically for free.
I mean, like this was a lot lot less insidious Okay,
like being poor and having like, uh, to deal with
a political police force. That's not a small thing that's
fucked up. Nobody would say that's good. That's better than
what I just described. Okay. And not only is it
better at day to day terms and in civilizational terms,
you can survive that, you cannot survive the other Okay.
That was Yaki's reasoning. Finally, again Yaki was like Kennon,
He's like, look, the Soviet Union is not going to
exist in fifty years. It's definitely not gonna exist in
one hundred years. From his then for the nineteen fifty
he's like, you know, when the Soviet Union's gone, there's
still gonna be a Russia. There's still gonna be in Germany.
You know, there's still gonna be a Europe. You know.
It's you know, so this idea that you know, this
is this idea that like, you know, what if if
if we could pitulate, we could picture like the Soviet Union.
Now you know that the world's gonna become this this
you know, is gonna become this kind of like uh,
this kind of like giant gulag hell, you know, is
you know, that's that's fast style I take some exception to.
I mean, I don't want to get into my own
view on this because it's it's it's outside the scope.
But you know, his point was that, you know, there's
nothing less cosmopolitan than the truly like kind of like
Russian cultural soul. Okay, So even if you have like
a europe and particlarly in Germany, like dominated by Russian perpetuity,
you know, gradually like they're gonna slough off, you know,
either the appearance of communism and even and even appeal
to it as some kind of you know ration, like
like purported rationale. You know, for what for what the
regime does? You know, you're gonna be left the basis
kind of like this kind of like nationalists Russian regime
that you know might be brutish towards the Germans, but
it's not gonna it's not gonna be it's not gonna
be trying to racially exterminate them out of history, and
it's not gonna be able to insinuate itself into the culture.
Like no, they can Russia not do that. They can't
do that. You're like, damn, like you were not gonna
see like Russian kids all just kind of spontaneously speaking
Russian because they viewed the Russians as the higher culture.
You were gonna see like you know, German women, like
deciding you want to dress like you know, like like
Russian women, you're not gonna find you know, German saying
you know what, like you know, I were antellectual canon
is just inferior to that going to be in produced
by the Russians. Like I'm not trashing Russia, but this
is this is a fact, okay, like that that would
not happen. And also again, I mean I use the
example which seems like the kind of narrow, narrowly focused
example of uh, you know, Warsaw pac command of control
having certain challenges, you know, because there was like language barriers.
I mean that that's that part of that was just
like a Russian thing where I'm not gonna learn German,
you know, like I I'm the occupier, I'm the boss,
you know who. I don't care about these people. I mean,
it really is kind of like a crude showing and
then a lot of Russians do. I don't even think
that's fairly bad. I'm kind of the same way in
my own like fucking Yankee Pecker would start of weigh, Okay,
I'm not some fucking not so many things like being
casmopolit is this braint thing, okay at all, But whether
it's good or bad is incidental, Like that's not what
the Russians are, Like, that's not how they do things. Okay.
So that was Yaki's point, and you know, at the
end of the day, I mean he was he was
right because it's like even if you you can look
at the big rebubtal of that would be like people, uh,
you know, the kinds of people who would say, like
we'll look at what the look at what the Soviets
did in the colored world. You know, they were radicalizing
all these people against the West, Like but like what
was the West? What was the West then? Like the
West was uh, they they were open borders, they were
you know, we've gotta we've got to eliminate, you know,
this this leg of equity between the sexes. We've gotta
we we we we've got to destroy these pairs communities
where people are insisting on retaining their own kind of
purity of ethnos and cultural practice. You know, we gotta,
you know, we gotta we we gotta create this kind
of global monoculture, whereas you know, like, uh, we're where
we were beyond race, like the Soviets were doing all
of this. Yeah, okay, I don't think it's good that
the Soviets were the you know in the Cubans were
the flowing and forced a you know, it's a the
Africa to annihilate you know, the Board of Republic. But
I mean, okay, in the grand scheme, what I say
is there's out Okay, there was Washington wasn't as far
far far more radical, far more actually communistic, far more
and city is far more destructive than Moscow ever was Okay,
and that was the case in nineteen fifty Okay, as
it is today. That was Jockey's point.
Speaker 1: Let's uh, let's finish up with us. So Jacky gets caught,
he gets thrown in jail, and he uh, he ends
up killing himself.
Speaker 2: Indeed, what why do you think he did? I think
Yaki never an H. Thompson, who was his good friend,
and even like decades after the fact, I mean Thompson,
Thompson realized that he was a witness to history in
some sense, so I mean he he he he was
relatively open with interviewers about his own life and his
own kind of experiences. I think he always played kind
of KOI about Yaki, Like Yaki had no visible source
of income. But you know, according to his friends, he
was always addressed well and he never had a lot
of money, but he was never like starving, you know,
and he uh, it's pretty clear to me that you know,
he was that he was an East Block intelligence asset.
I believe that he made contact with Otto Reemer and
the Socialist Reich's Party when uh he when he when
he when he was briefly a war crimes prosecutor, and
he deliberately lost his cases. I do like lesser war criminals.
But he he went to he was he was held
out trying to get to Germany and he did. That's
why he wanted to go away. In my opinion, I
believe may kind of the guys like Reamer, you know,
Reamer was uh reamerhead of you that I mean, I mean,
you know, uh, the socialsch Party was they they favored
alliance with the Soviet Union. I mean that was the whole,
that was their whole. Raizlin Detro was gonna skew the
the what remained of the German nationalists right towards you know,
away from NATO. But it uh. I believe that through
Reamer he got introduced, uh probably to the probably the
elements of of East German intelligence and definitely the kg
B types. And uh, I think that that was Jacky's
I think that was Yaki's role. And I think what
I think part of what Yachi was doing was he
was trying he was working neutralized like him and like
everybody's so deployed as he was, it was based on
their job like neutralized with the Allies, we're trying to
accomplish with their like kind of Operation Gladio notions, you know,
they're they're like the Warsaw pack was basically swinging like uh,
the European like patriotic right and like the fascist right
like towards their tamp for the reasons I just said,
and uh, Washington, uh and people like Dallas especially that
was they were very upset about that because obviously, like
this was a key part of kind of like their
their strategy for if there was a general communist assault
on Europe. You know, their stay behind element was these
guys who like Yaqui was flipping to the Soviet side,
you know, stuff like that. And he also, yeah, but
Yaki had like four or five different passports in different names.
He was arrested, like and this wasn't like today where
you know, if you know the right people you can
get that done, like that could print a passport in
nineteen fifty you know, like you couldn't do that any typewriter.
I mean, I I believe that very is very clear.
Speaker 1: Do you think from reading Bolton, do you think there's
a chance he was originally intelligence for the United States.
He goes a wall in the beginning of World War
in the beginning of World War two, disappears into South
America and then comes back, and he doesn't do any
time or it doesn't seem that he's even reprimanded, or
if he has reprimanded, it's a slap on the it's
a slap on the rest, I.
Speaker 2: Mean as possible. Yeah. And uh. He also he wrote
he wrote a speech or two for for Senator Joe McCarthy, which, uh,
you know, the storty of the speech was like why
you know, we need rearmed Germany and like embrace Germany
as like allies. It's really interesting, I think, but like
why why would Joe McCarthy like know who Yacky was?
I mean, McCarthy was like a big deal then. I mean,
like his it's gonna his fall from Grace Roverbia Lee
was dramatic and profound. But you know, McCarthy was one
of the left still like burns him in fig today
is because he was like a big deal. So it's
like why why this big shats senator at all? Just
kind of like random like right wing lawyer, like that
doesn't really make a lot of sense, you know, so like,
uh yeah, so I mean there's a very good chance. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: All right, let's leave it there and uh, we'll come
back to the Cold War on the next episode. And
I think this had Cold War implications, so that that's good.
Oh absolutely, And we can come back to this on
another date. Drop some plugs and we'll end this.
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Man, thanks for the time being. I'm
still on Twitter. I think that's probably gonna come to
an end soon, So I behoove people follow me on substack.
You know my substick is uh real Thomas seven seven
seven dot substack dot com. You know, there's like a
whole like there's a there's a whole like chat feature there.
You know, people are pretty active on I'm on t Gram.
You know, I still end the time being on Twitter.
For the time being on Twitter at real Underscore number
seven h one seven seven seven. I'm working on the
channel still in earnest. I'm gonna start shooting dedicated content
for it by the first week in April, so I
mean be looking for that. It's Thomas PD on YouTube.
Once I started uploading like real original content, I'm gonna
start saturating like Odyssey and other stuff. But right now
I'm on YouTube so people can find us. I realize
that that's not long for the Earth one once they
figure out what I'm doing. But I will hip everybody
to that, like on my substack, because I have been
doing this stuff and that's all I got for know.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much, thanks for this, No, thank
you man.
Speaker 2: Take care. Yeah,