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Sign up now at chumbacasino dot com. 26 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:00.000 No be necessary dB I lost. 27 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:13.599 If it's eight plus, you are now listening to True Murder, 28 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:17.439 The most shocking killers in true crime history and the 29 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:24.319 authors that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Dck. 30 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:29.040 Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 31 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:33.200 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 32 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:48.799 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good evening for 33 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.799 the first time. Boston reporters Casey Sherman and Dave Wedge 34 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:57.840 draw on exclusive interviews and exhaustive investigative reportage to tell 35 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.079 the complete story of Whitey Bulger, one of the most 36 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:05.239 notorious crime bosses in American history and a long time 37 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:10.240 FBI informant. The leader of Boston's Winter Hill Gang and 38 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:14.199 number one on the FBI's most wanted list, Bulger was 39 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:20.479 indicted for nineteen counts of murder, racketeering, narcotics, distribution, and extortion, 40 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.840 but it was his sixteen year flight from justice on 41 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.479 the eve of his arrest that made him a legend 42 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:32.000 and exposed deep corruption within the FBI. While other accounts 43 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:36.159 have examined Bulger's crimes, this remarkable chronicle tells the story 44 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.000 of his life on the run, his capture, and his 45 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:43.800 eventual murder inside one of America's most dangerous prisons, Misery Mountain, 46 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:49.199 in two thousand and eighteen. Interweaving the perspectives of Bulger, 47 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:53.719 his family and cohorts, and law enforcement, Hunting Whitey explains 48 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:56.879 how this dangerous criminal a aided capture for nearly two 49 00:02:56.919 --> 00:03:00.439 decades and shines a spotlight on the dedicated TOTEM actives, 50 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:05.520 federal agents, and prosecutors involved in bringing him to justice. 51 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.879 It is also a fascinating detailed portrait of both Balger's 52 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:12.879 trial and his time in prison, including shocking new details 53 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.840 about his death at Misery Mountain less than twenty four 54 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:20.759 hours after his arrival. Granted access to exclusive prison letters 55 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:23.439 and interviews with dozens of people connected to the case, 56 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.439 on both sides, Sherman and Wedge offer a trove of 57 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:31.759 fascinating new stories and create and an incomparable portrait of 58 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:35.319 one of the most infamous criminals in American history. The 59 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.199 book that we're featuring this evening is Hunting Whitey, The 60 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:42.360 inside story of the capture and killing of America's most 61 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.639 wanted crime boss, with my special guest journalist and author 62 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:48.879 Dave Wedge, welcome to the program, and thank you very 63 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:58.599 much for a Greenness interview. Dave Wedge Ye good evening, David, Dave. 64 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.319 Going, how you guys doing very good. Thank you very 65 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:07.479 much for this interview. An incredible book, and congratulations on 66 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:13.120 you and Casey Sherman's book here Hunting Whitey remarkable, remarkable book. 67 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:15.599 And all thank you. 68 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:23.279 Sorry, go ahead, go ahead. I wanted to say that 69 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:26.759 if we could first tell our audience a little bit 70 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:30.519 about your background and your connection to Boston before we 71 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:35.360 get right into this incredible book. Yeah. 72 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.319 No, So, I've been a journalist for fourteen years at 73 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:44.519 the Boston Herald, and I started writing books with Casey 74 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.800 back in twenty thirteen. We wrote a book about the 75 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.720 Boston marathon bombings called Boston Strong, and that book actually 76 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:56.199 was used for the movie Patriots Day starring Mark Wahlberg 77 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:01.040 that came out in twenty and seventeen. Since then, Casey 78 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:04.839 and I have written a few other books together, and 79 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:07.439 we did a book about the young man who started 80 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.519 the ice Pocket Challenge. His name was Pete Frady's. He 81 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:13.439 was a kid from Boston and he had als. He 82 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:17.120 unfortunately passed away last fall, but that was quite a 83 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:18.879 project to do too, and then we actually did a 84 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:23.480 book in twenty eighteen about Deflategate and the whole saga 85 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.199 there with the NFL versus Tom Brady and the fight 86 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.560 between the union, the NFL union, and the league on that. 87 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:33.000 And then you know, so this book here. You know, 88 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:36.319 Casey and I both covered the Whitey Balger case for 89 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:38.439 many years as journalists in Boston. Case he was an 90 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:42.000 investigated producer at the local CBS affiliate and me at 91 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.079 the Boston Herald. And you know, we never really expected 92 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:46.800 to write a book about Whitey Bulger. There have been 93 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.399 many books written about his exploits over the years. But 94 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:54.319 when he was murdered in prison back in twenty eighteen, 95 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:57.519 you know, we just kind of thought about it and said, 96 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.800 you know what, there's an opportunity here to finished this 97 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:04.240 story until the final chapter. And that's what we did. 98 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.519 Let's get right to the book itself, and you we 99 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:13.040 jump in and with the reader right away and take you. 100 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.360 Take us to February third, two thousand and eight and 101 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:19.319 the first day on the job for Assistant Special Agent 102 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:24.079 in Charge, Noreen Gleason. Tell us a little bit about 103 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:30.199 this meeting and what Noreen's Gleason's job was according to 104 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:34.160 Warrant Bamford, Yeah, so Noreen. 105 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:36.439 Was was put So, you know, the FBI had long 106 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:40.040 had a White Bulger task force, and over the years 107 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:42.800 that he was on the run, that task force would 108 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.079 grow and shrink from time to time based on the 109 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:49.000 special agent in charge and priorities of the office. And obviously, 110 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:54.439 when nine to eleven occurred, the office's mission shifted drastically 111 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:59.480 from you know, fugitive hunting and organized crime to terrorism. 112 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:03.319 And that's that sort of focus kind of persisted for many, 113 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:06.639 many years in the Boston office, given that, you know, 114 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:09.879 the planes flew out of Logan Airport, so the FBI's 115 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.519 resources really needed to be used in that fight against terror. 116 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:16.600 But there were a lot of agents that still were, 117 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.600 you know, really upset about the fact that the office 118 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:26.680 was stained with this appearance of corruption from prior administrations 119 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:30.680 with you know, John Connolly and John Morris and H. 120 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.680 Paul Rico and some of the other agents that were 121 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.839 in bed with Whitey Bulger and his crew. And so 122 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:39.279 Noring Gleeson was assigned to this task force, and it 123 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.720 was really kind of a you know, no one looked 124 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:43.639 at it as really a good gig at the time, 125 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:46.040 because you know, everyone thought he was never going to 126 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.959 be found, and they thought they were chasing Bigfoot, you know, 127 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.720 this mythical creature that would never be caught. And but 128 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:56.040 Noring Gleeson jumped onto the team, and you know, she 129 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:58.759 made it her mission that you know, she wanted to 130 00:07:58.839 --> 00:07:59.199 change the. 131 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:04.759 Narrative before we talk about the team that she assembles. 132 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.000 Let's you take the reader back and let's take the 133 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:14.040 audience back to this trip that Whitey Bulger and his 134 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:17.279 longtime girlfriend he's never married, but they lived like they 135 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:21.439 were married. That she had four kids from a previous marriage, 136 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.600 and they had taken a trip to Europe. Tell us 137 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:27.079 a little bit about this trip as you take us 138 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.040 back to Whitey before he went on the run. 139 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.200 So, you know, there's a lot of mystery out there 140 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:38.279 about Whitey Bulger and what he had. You know, what 141 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:40.639 he did and didn't do in his life. One thing 142 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:44.039 for sure, he made millions and millions of dollars through 143 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:50.000 his criminal enterprises, whether it be book making, drug dealing, 144 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:56.759 gun running, extortion, and you know, fraudulent business activities. But 145 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:00.519 you know him and Teresa Stanley, you know they traveled 146 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:04.879 Europe extensively, and Teresa Stanley was his first girlfriend, the 147 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:06.519 one that he originally went on the run with. And 148 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:08.879 you know, there's a lot of questions as to what 149 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:11.480 he did on these trips around the world. A lot 150 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:15.519 of people think and the FBI seems to have believed 151 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:19.360 that he was stashing money in safety deposit boxes around 152 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:23.600 the world. There was a trip to England where he 153 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.200 is believed to have put some money into a safety 154 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:33.320 deposit box near Piccadilly Circus. There's been some stories of 155 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:36.320 him putting money in safety deposit boxes in Ireland as well. 156 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:40.200 You know, he famously was involved in a gun running 157 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:44.320 scheme with Ireland, so he had very close ties to 158 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:48.879 the IRA and an organized crime in Ireland. So you know, 159 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.759 the big question here with Whitey Balder that the remaining 160 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:55.960 mystery is where is that money. 161 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.039 You take us back to December twenty third, nineteen ninety 162 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.559 four and again White Bulger leader of the winter Hill 163 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:08.120 Gang in Boston South End, violent Irish mafia and he's 164 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:13.639 out shopping Christmas shopping with Teresa Stanley, but he gets 165 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:19.200 a deeper message from his longtime partner, Kevin Weeks tell 166 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:20.519 us what happened to this meeting. 167 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:25.960 Yeah, So, you know, Whitey Bulger had several law enforcement, 168 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.919 corrupt members of law enforcement on his payroll and at 169 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:31.960 his beck and call. One of them was John Connolly, 170 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.480 who grew up in the same South Boston neighborhood as 171 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:38.360 Whitey Bulger and his brother Billy, who was a powerful 172 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:41.200 politician in Massachusetts. He was the president of the Massachusetts 173 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.720 Senate and the president of University of Massachusetts. And Kevin 174 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.279 Weeks was kind of the go between for Whitey Bulger 175 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:51.559 and a lot of these corrupt law enforcement folks. And 176 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:54.559 you know, there was a lot of chatter in the 177 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:58.360 media and you know, just in criminal circles that there 178 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:02.759 was indictments coming down against Balder and his crew, you know, 179 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:05.399 sweeping rico cases. You know, people were being arrested and 180 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:07.759 rounded up, and there was a lot of chatter on 181 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.559 the streets that people were talking. And you know, when 182 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:16.039 Kevin Weeks gets that deeper message, it was an alert 183 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.360 to Whitey Bulger to let him know that the indictments 184 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:21.320 were coming and it was time for Whitey to put 185 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.799 his plan into action, which was to go on the run. 186 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:27.639 And he had been planning for this moment. Really for 187 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:31.399 many many years through what we just described, you know, 188 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.440 you know, leaving money in safety deposit boxes around the 189 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:40.080 world and around the country, and also having cash at hand, guns, 190 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:46.679 fake identities and disguises, and a plan to get out 191 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:47.320 of Dodge. 192 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:53.919 Whitey has a partner as well of associate named Steve Flemy, 193 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.639 and so he contacts him as well and tells him 194 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:58.480 about the indictments, doesn't. 195 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.559 He Yes, So Whitey got the tip from John Conley 196 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:06.519 they were coming down, and he did let Steve Flemy 197 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.320 know that that was coming. Steve Flemy was not as 198 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:12.600 lucky as white Balger. He was not able to get 199 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:16.320 out of Dodge in time, and Steve Flemy was rounded 200 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.799 up while white he went on the run for sixteen years. Yeah. 201 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.960 Now, when we talked about that trip that I mentioned 202 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:29.039 with Teresa Stanley, the reason for part of one of 203 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:33.360 the reasons for the trip was to strengthen their relationships. 204 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:36.879 What was wrong with their relationship? What had Teresa found 205 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:39.320 out and what was the situation between them? 206 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:44.720 Yeah, so she knew about Catherine greg and they had 207 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:48.519 had a confrontation the two women where they were basically 208 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.679 fighting over Whitey Bulger. You know, and the research that 209 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.360 we did for this book and the interviews that we conducted, 210 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.159 one thing was very clear to the people that were 211 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:00.600 closest to Whitey and Catherine was that they had a 212 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:05.120 true love. And you know, while Teresa Stanley spent more 213 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:08.759 time in her life with Bulger than Catherine Gregg had 214 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:13.519 up to this point that we're discussing, he really, I believe, 215 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.919 you know, my opinion is that he trusted Catherine Moore 216 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.200 and that he actually loved her more. Him and Teresa 217 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.039 had a very volatile relationship. There's a lot of uh, 218 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:26.000 there's a lot of violence in the relationship, a lot 219 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:29.000 of control, and you know, I think a lot of 220 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.679 it was centered around the issues here that that he 221 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:34.159 had another woman in his life and that was Catherine greg. 222 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.559 Right when he decides that he needs to go on 223 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.679 the run and leave Boston, he doesn't immediately go on 224 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.759 the run because he gets this head's up. But what 225 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.519 was the situation with Stanley. You talked about that he 226 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:53.639 had more love for Katherine greg But why was it, 227 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.279 at least on the surface, the reason why Teresa couldn't 228 00:13:57.320 --> 00:13:58.159 join him on the run. 229 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.000 So Teresa had children, and she had family ties and 230 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.320 She was not ready to give those up and just 231 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.039 go on the run and disappear forever and not see 232 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:12.840 her family and friends anymore. She was She expressed that 233 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:16.159 to Bulger, you know when when this plan was first enacted, 234 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.679 and he was furious, obviously, and he brought her back 235 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:21.480 to Boston and he dumped her off and he picked 236 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:24.879 up Catherine Greg under the cover of night. He picked 237 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.080 her up in Boston and he took her on the 238 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.600 run with him and left Teresa Stanley behind forever. And 239 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.120 it was It's a weird thing, you know, because I 240 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:36.840 think Catherine Greg feels like, you know, felt like at 241 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:39.159 that moment that she had won. You know, she won 242 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.240 the battle for Bulger and she was now his number 243 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:45.399 one mall for lack of a better term. 244 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:50.279 You talk about his age and the age difference between them. 245 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.080 What is the age difference between them? And also you 246 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:57.600 you write about a son that he had with a 247 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:02.639 former relationship, Douglas Glenn Sear. Tell us what happened there 248 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:04.279 and his reaction to that. 249 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.919 Yeah, so White and Catherine. There's there's a big age 250 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:11.320 difference there. I believe it's about twenty years. But yeah, 251 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:13.000 you know, one thing, a lot of people don't know 252 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.159 about Whitey Bulger is. You know, he was never married. 253 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.840 You know, he Teresa Stanley was could be kind of 254 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.159 considered like his common law wife, but they never formally married. 255 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:23.799 They never had any children, but white he did have 256 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:28.159 a child. He had a boy, and and that boy 257 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.120 got very sick, he had high fever and uh and 258 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:35.440 the kid ended up passing away in the hospital. And 259 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:38.360 that you know, a lot of people that know Bulger 260 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:42.559 in his story point to that loss of his sons 261 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.279 as a pivotal moment in his life that really pushed 262 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:49.480 him from being just another organized crime figure to really 263 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.960 be in this ruthless, ruthless gangster that was really heartless 264 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.879 and had no no mercy, no moral compass anymore. 265 00:15:58.080 --> 00:15:58.279 You know. 266 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:02.480 And not only did he play law enforcement like a fiddle, 267 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:04.960 but he would really go out of his way to 268 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:09.320 exact revenge on people, particularly cruel to women. Throughout the 269 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.279 rest of his life. He blamed the mother of his 270 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.759 son for that boy's death. He blamed her for not 271 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.399 helping the kid get medical help fast enough. And it 272 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.559 really changed the He was on a bad path anyway, 273 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.720 but I think it really pushed him further into the Abyss. 274 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:32.320 You're right that Kevin Weeks is a free man, but 275 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:35.480 Steve Flemy is in jail, so hesits him business them 276 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:40.759 This isn't very often. What had Whitey done to alter 277 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.240 his appearance of anything? And what was the situation in 278 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:50.559 terms of what the FBI contained in terms of photos. 279 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:53.399 Yeah, so Bulger when he went on the run was 280 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.320 a very different appearing man than he was in the 281 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:02.279 surveillance photos that the FBI had of him. Remember that, 282 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.279 you know he went on the run in nineteen ninety five. 283 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:11.160 Most of the surveillance photos that the FBI had of 284 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.960 him were from the seventies and eighties and even sixties. 285 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.279 And you know, his mug shots were ancient. They were 286 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:20.599 from the fifties and sixties. So Whitey Bulger was very smart. 287 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:24.240 He hated having his picture taken. He avoided it. There 288 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:28.519 there aren't many pictures of him that exist. They were 289 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.200 able to find a couple. There's there's one infamous one 290 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.960 that we have in our book from Christening of John 291 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:39.759 Moderano's son. John Monerano was one of Whitey's and forces. 292 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.200 Who's a guy that killed over twenty people for the crew. 293 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:44.839 And there's a picture that we have in the book 294 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.839 of Bulger holding John Monarano's son at a christening. That's 295 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:50.480 one of the last known photos of Bulger from before 296 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:52.799 he went on the run. So when he went on 297 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.359 the run, you know he was he was notoriously wore 298 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.359 a bucket cap, sunglasses, grew a beard, and he just 299 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.279 appeared like an old, older, you know, retiree that was 300 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.519 kind of in these you know, Southern states and and 301 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:09.960 and you know, tropical climates he kind of fit in. 302 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:11.200 He hit playing site. 303 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.640 What was the alias that he used? Uh that Teresa 304 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.279 knew of as well, that Catherine and Whitey were using. 305 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:21.160 What was the alias that they were using on the run? 306 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.599 So the first alias that he used was Thomas Baxter 307 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.960 and that that name almost got him caught in New 308 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.400 York because you know, the FBI was able to and 309 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:35.640 the the you know, the law enforcement that was that 310 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.400 was trailing and was able to find that that was 311 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.200 a fake name, and they were able to tact the 312 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.720 track to a vehicle. But whye he was managed to 313 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:45.640 stay a step ahead of them every step of the way. 314 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:47.599 There's a lot of questions as to why that happened, 315 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.720 whether or not early in the investigation if he was getting, 316 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:53.759 you know, continuing to get help from law enforcement, from 317 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:56.960 you know, the likes of John Connolly. And you know, 318 00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:59.480 it appears that that is the case, that early in 319 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.559 his flight from justice, that Whitey was continuing to get 320 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:09.039 inside information from Lauren Wilson authorities. So Bulger changed that name, 321 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:12.079 and he used several different names. One name that he 322 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.720 used was James Lawler, and then there was another one 323 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:17.759 that he ended up using at the end, which was 324 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.920 Charles Gasco. And he had used a variation of that 325 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:24.799 at times as well, Charles Gasca with an A on 326 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.359 the end. But in the end, when him and Catherine 327 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.640 greg were in Santa Monica, they were Charlie and Carol 328 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.279 Gasco and that's that's how people knew them out there. 329 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:42.200 Now, at the same time, you've talked about with Norien 330 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:47.559 Gleason assembling a team to start re evaluating and re 331 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:54.119 invigorating this this mission to try to find Whitey Bulger. 332 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.359 So what was the what was the wisdom at the 333 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.559 time where he might have gone? He had all this money, 334 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:07.839 they reckoned, But where did the FBI believe he had 335 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:08.200 gone to? 336 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:11.839 Likely, Well, there were you know, there were sightings all 337 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:16.640 over the world of Bulger and Catherine greg and he 338 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:19.839 in fact holds the unique distinction of being the most 339 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.960 featured criminal ever on the old show America's Most Wanted. 340 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:26.319 He was on there more than a dozen times and 341 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.200 it generated literally thousands of thousands of tips over the year. 342 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.160 So I said earlier that you know, it wasn't really 343 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:33.680 looked at as a plum gig to be in the 344 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.319 Whitey Bulger Task Force. But there was a time when 345 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.599 it was looked at as a plum gig, not because 346 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.200 you had the opportunity to catch white Bulger, but because 347 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.640 you got to travel the world. And a lot of 348 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:45.839 the agents would joke about it that, you know, he 349 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:48.599 joined the Bulger Task Force and see the world. You know, 350 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.200 agents were going to Cuba, they were going to Ireland, 351 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:55.680 they were going to Aruba, they were going to remote 352 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.720 Caribbean islands. They were sent to Italy to check out 353 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.200 these and all of them proved to be false. None 354 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.599 of them proved to be accurate. And in fact, it 355 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.559 appears that Whitey Bulger never left the country. That's actually 356 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.200 you know, we have some letters, exclusive letters that have 357 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:15.000 never been seen before. In the book where he says 358 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.200 that you know, he never left the country and they 359 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:21.200 were chasing his ghost. 360 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.480 I talked about this team that was assembled by Gleason 361 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.400 with a guy named Tommy McDonald that she knew from 362 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:31.880 the past, and a couple other people that she agents 363 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:38.359 that she trusted. What was a person named Charles gian 364 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.519 Turco was one of these people. Now, what was the 365 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:46.680 mindset that these people put together and what was the 366 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:51.920 the I guess the pivotal decision that they made in 367 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:57.400 terms of the new direction for this this hunt for Whitey. 368 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:00.680 Yeah, well, I think all these agents came in with 369 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.519 the same mindset, which was, you know, enough's enough. You know, 370 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:07.680 the Bureau has been smeared enough over this case. Let's 371 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:09.839 find a way to end this once and for all. 372 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:14.359 And the pivotal decision that was made was to stop 373 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.680 chasing Whitey and stop chasing Catherine. And that was a 374 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.079 decision that was that was made by that group you mentioned, 375 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.319 led by Nora Gleason. And what they did was they 376 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.039 started tracking down every bit of information that they could 377 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.799 find about Catherine greg And what they found was that 378 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:33.680 she had that she had received extensive plastic surgery and 379 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.759 they actually were able to track down her plastic surgeon 380 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:42.480 and get some pictures of her that they later used 381 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:47.279 for a famous public service announcement that was broadcast across 382 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:50.559 the country. And that's really the break in the case 383 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.960 that had never been done before by the FBI. They 384 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.720 had never you know, funded their own PSA. They spent 385 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.960 fifty thousand dollars to make it with a video company, 386 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:02.799 and then they spent another fifty thousand dollars buying ad 387 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:06.279 time around the country and white Bullsrom himself saw that 388 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:09.440 when he saw that PSA, he looked at Catherine greg 389 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:10.279 and said, this is it. 390 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:16.079 They also the fortunate thing about this PSA as well, 391 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.000 because they had a limited budget, and it had such 392 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.960 a limited budget that they couldn't afford to run ads 393 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.480 in the Los Angeles because the ad read revenues were 394 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.039 so high or the rates were so high. So what 395 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.480 happened in terms of this fortunate break as a result 396 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:38.599 of this unique approach with this commercial to try to 397 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:40.160 find Whitey, Well. 398 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:43.000 Because they used this innovative tactic, you got a lot 399 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.799 of media coverage, and that media coverage spread the ad 400 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:48.799 into areas that the FBI couldn't afford to buy ads in. 401 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.319