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<v Speaker 1>Welcome again to the Nonprofits, the weekly recorded show that

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<v Speaker 1>addresses current events and news items from an atheist and

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<v Speaker 1>humanist perspective. And there is nothing more human than talking

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<v Speaker 1>about dinosaurs, right, Eli, we're talking about about dinosaurs.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well actually no, probably not, but wake up, babe.

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<v Speaker 2>New tetrapod just dropped. Until recently, all the available evidence

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<v Speaker 2>suggested that the first tetrapods transition to land somewhere between

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<v Speaker 2>three hundred and fifty nine to three hundred and sixty

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<v Speaker 2>million years ago. However, new findings have challenged that model.

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<v Speaker 2>In what is now Victoria, Australia, researchers uncovered lizard like

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<v Speaker 2>footprints that preliminarily date back to somewhere around three hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and ninety five million years ago. So the most significant

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<v Speaker 2>implication of this finding is that animals existed on land

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<v Speaker 2>roughly forty million years prior, ear earlier than we previously

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<v Speaker 2>thought they had. That is certainly a controversial claim because

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<v Speaker 2>prior to this, the earliest known fossils were of possibly

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<v Speaker 2>semi aquatic animals that existed after the Devonian period. These

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<v Speaker 2>fossilized footprints placed land dwelling animals land dwelling four legged

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<v Speaker 2>vertebrates on land before the end of the Devonean period. However,

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<v Speaker 2>these data are preliminary and therefore necessarily incomplete, so it's

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<v Speaker 2>not time to change the textbooks yet. Peer review and

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<v Speaker 2>further data collection will confirm or reject the new hypothesis.

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<v Speaker 2>The story is from Popular Mechanics by Elizabeth reign On

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<v Speaker 2>May nineteenth, twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>So, while I am deeply disappointed that it's not dinosaurs,

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<v Speaker 1>it is land land lizards. Right, that's what a tetrapod.

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<v Speaker 2>Is, something of the sort. Yeah, tetrapod is a four

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<v Speaker 2>legged animal, tetra meaning four pod meaning.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, oh pod actually meaning feet yeah, tripod? No, you're right, thanks,

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<v Speaker 1>But Okay, it's not time to change the textbooks yet.

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<v Speaker 1>Why not we learned a thing, why can't we teach

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<v Speaker 1>the new thing? True?

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<v Speaker 2>Great question, So, because I think it's actually really likely

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<v Speaker 2>for a lot of people who don't really kind of

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<v Speaker 2>understand these processes say look at this and say, like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>they can't even get the story straight. But what this

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<v Speaker 2>means is that prior to this, we didn't have a

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<v Speaker 2>reason to believe that there were animals on land. Prior

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<v Speaker 2>to the oldest fossil we had found now this data

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<v Speaker 2>that dates this fossil to the timeframe that it does

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<v Speaker 2>three hundred and ninety five million years ago. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>preliminary data, and preliminary data is necessarily incomplete whenever we

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<v Speaker 2>find it. So this is where peer review comes in.

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<v Speaker 2>This is where like other archaeologists and experts are going

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<v Speaker 2>to come in and take a look at either the

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<v Speaker 2>pictures or the actual footprints themselves on location and see

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<v Speaker 2>if they can come to some sort of consensus, and

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<v Speaker 2>at that point we will start to change what the

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<v Speaker 2>model's being taught would say. Of course, I'm using the

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<v Speaker 2>Royal wee as I'm not, are.

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<v Speaker 1>You, I'm really involved with the textbook creation.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, not these textbooks.

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<v Speaker 1>So I do genuinely find this interesting and really fascinating.

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<v Speaker 1>But I imagine, like I do, and I imagine most

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<v Speaker 1>people have a really hard time connecting or having any

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<v Speaker 1>kind of emotional bearing on this sort of thing at all. Cynthia,

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<v Speaker 1>what does this mean to you? Does it matter? How

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<v Speaker 1>do you feel?

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<v Speaker 3>Well? I think that the finding reminds us how scientific

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<v Speaker 3>knowledge is always provisional and it's open to revision with

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<v Speaker 3>new evidence. So the idea that tetrapods, the ancestors of

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<v Speaker 3>all land vertebrates, includes ourselves, and we're walking around tens

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<v Speaker 3>of millions of years earlier than thought, shifts our understanding

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<v Speaker 3>of lives for conquest of lands. And even with this

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<v Speaker 3>particular discovery, you know, the presence of clause is a

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<v Speaker 3>key marker distinguishing the amine, the amnion, the amniotis, and

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<v Speaker 3>the amphibians. And the tracks suggest that tetrapods, the group

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<v Speaker 3>including amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals including humans, were already

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<v Speaker 3>walking on the land significantly earlier than the fossil bones

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<v Speaker 3>wreckers actually previously shown. And moreover, the discovery actually calls

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<v Speaker 3>into question the previously accepted impact of the n Devonian

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<v Speaker 3>mass extinction of the tetrapod evolution. So these footprints indicate

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<v Speaker 3>that the evolution of tetrapods and continued relatively uninterrupted through

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<v Speaker 3>this event, suggesting that tetrapods actually began diversifying earlier than

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<v Speaker 3>the more robustly more robustly rather than once believe. And

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<v Speaker 3>I think that this actually shows how cool science really is,

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<v Speaker 3>because like what we what we know about science is that,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, you usually start out with a hypothesis and

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<v Speaker 3>you test that a hypothesis to see if we can

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<v Speaker 3>actually become you know, we can make it into a theory. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>theory is not necessarily truth per se. It is the

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<v Speaker 3>closest thing to fact that we have based on the

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<v Speaker 3>methodology of testing that we used in order for us

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<v Speaker 3>to prove or disprove the hypothesis that was that was

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<v Speaker 3>previously approsed. And then we also know that after you

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<v Speaker 3>pose a hypothesis, even if it becomes a theory, that

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<v Speaker 3>theory is still subjugated to question. It's still subjugated to

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<v Speaker 3>even more methodology of testing to see if it is

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<v Speaker 3>still the same the same closest thing to fact that

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<v Speaker 3>we had you know previously, you know before. So even

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<v Speaker 3>to Eli's point, there's still more testing, there's still more

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<v Speaker 3>you know, pontification, there's still more you know, relative you know,

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<v Speaker 3>studies that have to be done in order for us

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<v Speaker 3>to say that if this is an actual thing, cool discovery,

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<v Speaker 3>great hazza, as you would say, Rob, well, but you know,

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<v Speaker 3>but but we're not necessarily to the point where we're

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<v Speaker 3>like really need to like, you know, overturn the previous

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<v Speaker 3>theory to this one just yet.

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<v Speaker 1>So you might see me like looking around because I'm

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<v Speaker 1>trying to find a hat just for a bit. But uh,

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<v Speaker 1>what I want to do is put on my theist

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<v Speaker 1>hat for just a second and say something like that

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<v Speaker 1>was really lovely. And what I believe you just said

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<v Speaker 1>is that science is incapable of establishing or determining truth.

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<v Speaker 1>So what good is it?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh wow, that's exactly what I was not saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Because it's constantly changing, Then what good is it going

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<v Speaker 1>to be doing for us?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, because then my pushback would be specifically

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<v Speaker 3>to the theis. First, it is that, but you consider

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<v Speaker 3>truth fixed, and it's not. It's not. And and here's

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<v Speaker 3>the thing. When we are always having these questions about

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<v Speaker 3>what is the closest thing to fact versus not, and

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<v Speaker 3>then you go to the old axiom of well, religious

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<v Speaker 3>says this, therefore it is. We even found out that

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<v Speaker 3>when religious said, religion said that the Son was a god,

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<v Speaker 3>then actually did like some you know, making a pathic

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<v Speaker 3>is like, maybe that's not a god. Maybe that's like,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, like a body like in space. Did the testing,

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<v Speaker 3>did the method? Did the method in order for us

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<v Speaker 3>to prove that's the case. And then we found out

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<v Speaker 3>that's the case. So now we declassified the sun as

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<v Speaker 3>a deity and actually said, this is a natural phenomenon,

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<v Speaker 3>and we have found that to be the case in

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<v Speaker 3>any case, you know, and a lot of different things

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<v Speaker 3>that we have you know, pushed towards this is like

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<v Speaker 3>an actual like you know, religion or a spiritual thing.

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<v Speaker 3>And then when we find out, oh, when we're actually

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<v Speaker 3>like paying attention and doing like more testing, oh, this

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<v Speaker 3>is a natural phenomenon.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, but how can you determine that the so I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just going to use the theist hat, how can you

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<v Speaker 1>determine that the natural phenomenon is not just created, uh

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<v Speaker 1>and established by the rule set of God like for example, So, Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>here's the thing. If science can't perfectly tell us the

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<v Speaker 1>reality of what is because it's constantly changing, then I

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<v Speaker 1>don't really find this to be different from say, any

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<v Speaker 1>religion talking to any other religion and saying, well, you're

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<v Speaker 1>wrong and I'm right, Because isn't that what the scientists

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<v Speaker 1>are doing too? How can we possibly work on a

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<v Speaker 1>set of belief systems that is, one on purpose constantly changing,

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<v Speaker 1>and two made by people who disagree with each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's a totally fair question, And obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>of course we hear stuff like that all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>So here's essentially what it is. I kind of touched

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<v Speaker 2>on it at the beginning, is that you don't come

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<v Speaker 2>to a conclusion until you have a reason to come

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<v Speaker 2>to that conclusion. We didn't have a reason to think

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<v Speaker 2>that there were tetrapods on land three hundred and ninety

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<v Speaker 2>five million years ago because we had never found any

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<v Speaker 2>evidence that that was the case. Now it seems like,

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<v Speaker 2>once again preliminarily, it seems like we have found evidence

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<v Speaker 2>that that is the case. So that's when we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to start to say, like, oh, yeah, look, maybe there was.

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<v Speaker 2>And the purpose of peer review, like we mentioned, is

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<v Speaker 2>that now that these researchers have reported and published their findings,

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<v Speaker 2>anybody else Cynthia rabbah blah blah blah blaha, or myself

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<v Speaker 2>or anybody else in the world can look at that

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<v Speaker 2>paper and say I disagree with this and here's why,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can write a review of that paper and

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<v Speaker 2>send it to that journal. Are they going to publish it?

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<v Speaker 1>Probably not.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe it depends on if it has merit and if

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<v Speaker 2>it's well written, right, But that's the thing that anybody

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<v Speaker 2>can do so when So that's where where we find

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<v Speaker 2>this method to be a reliable one, because we're not

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<v Speaker 2>relying on what what you know was written down one time,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're never changing that no matter what we find

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<v Speaker 2>out or no matter what we learn. To the contrary,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not just listening to one person's interpretation of you

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<v Speaker 2>know what all of this means as we find it,

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<v Speaker 2>we're getting a consensus from everybody who has preferably only

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<v Speaker 2>those who have expertise in the field, who actually have

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<v Speaker 2>knowledge that are caught up in the conversation, rather than

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<v Speaker 2>still catching up in the conversation. And that distinction, I

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<v Speaker 2>think is where most people start to kind of muddy

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<v Speaker 2>the waters between whether the whether scientists disagreeing with each

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<v Speaker 2>other is the same things as non scientists disagreeing with

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<v Speaker 2>each other.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I completely understand and agree that we should be

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<v Speaker 1>appealing to expertise, which is not necessarily the same thing

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<v Speaker 1>as appealing to authority. But as you're saying, any anyone

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<v Speaker 1>can participate in this, and ideally they develop the expertise

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<v Speaker 1>such that they can speak intelligently on the subject. So

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<v Speaker 1>are you saying it sounds like you just said that

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<v Speaker 1>I rob the theist am invited and perhaps even challenged

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<v Speaker 1>to participate in the scientific conquest of knowledge because I

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely don't believe that this occurred. Yeah, I can't do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely anybody can. Yeah. I would invite any theist, and you,

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<v Speaker 2>Rob the theists especially to yeah, write a review about

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<v Speaker 2>the findings that have been published and send it to

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know the name of the journal that it

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<v Speaker 2>was published in, but I can find out and we'll

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<v Speaker 2>tell everybody what journal was published, and you can send

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<v Speaker 2>your review, your peer review, to that journal and see it.

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<v Speaker 1>Soyll publish it. Whenever stuff like this comes up, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>taking my non existent theist head off, or is that

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<v Speaker 1>the bit whenever whenever stuff like this comes up, I

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<v Speaker 1>think about So this is a little side bit I

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<v Speaker 1>think a survivorship bias, because I'm sure you guys actually

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<v Speaker 1>literally today I was just asked, Rob, how often do

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<v Speaker 1>you think about ancient Rome? And I'm going to be

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<v Speaker 1>bringing it up right now with their roads, and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if people think about this very often with

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<v Speaker 1>the ancient Roman roads, and people are like, they don't

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<v Speaker 1>build them like they used to accept they they probably did.

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<v Speaker 1>We just have the ones that survived we don't know

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<v Speaker 1>how many aren't here. So when it comes to fossils,

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<v Speaker 1>we have no idea how many fossils we don't have.

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<v Speaker 1>We don't know to such an extent that it is

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<v Speaker 1>actually impossible to even begin to think about how many

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have. So that means that discoveries like this

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<v Speaker 1>are even more profound and important because we have to

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<v Speaker 1>keep our survivorship bias in check. But it also just

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<v Speaker 1>continues to demonstrate just how much we've learned and how

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<v Speaker 1>much more we have to learn. It is one of

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<v Speaker 1>those cases of it literally asks more questions. So what

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<v Speaker 1>I would say is to people who are atheists, we

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<v Speaker 1>hear is there is there a connection to the historicity

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<v Speaker 1>of this because I know that, Uh, I can actually

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<v Speaker 1>talk on this like atheists can have a religious experience

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<v Speaker 1>that is a very specifically defined term, and people can

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<v Speaker 1>think about the expansiveness of Earth and how we've been

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<v Speaker 1>on here. Cynthia, do you have any kind of appreciation

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<v Speaker 1>for how this has has gotten here or does it

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<v Speaker 1>not matter to you? It's okay if it doesn't matter.

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<v Speaker 1>I get it's it's a lizard from a long ass

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<v Speaker 1>time ago.

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<v Speaker 3>Well as as a as a Hoovian. I always had

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<v Speaker 3>a soft heart for the Silurians, you know, since they

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<v Speaker 3>predated humankind, and if you are human Hoovian AnyWho. But

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<v Speaker 3>as far as like humanity is concerned, and especially when

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<v Speaker 3>it comes so like this, you know, tetrapolineage. The discovery

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<v Speaker 3>actually deepens the connection that we have to a distant

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<v Speaker 3>wild world, and it reminds us that our place in

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<v Speaker 3>the natural world is shaped by an ancient history of adaptation, survival,

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<v Speaker 3>and change. And it also underscores the importance of scientific

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<v Speaker 3>humility and curiosity, continuously questioning and refining our understanding of

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<v Speaker 3>our past. You know, I think that it's like really important,

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<v Speaker 3>and I know that like some people have a tendency

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<v Speaker 3>to dismiss this, that the history of a thing helps

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<v Speaker 3>define a thing. Now we are more understanding of where

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<v Speaker 3>we may be as a society or even as an individual,

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<v Speaker 3>depending on what has happened before. And I know, as

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<v Speaker 3>a person who is a student of history, and that's

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<v Speaker 3>one of my favorite subjects and has been for a

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<v Speaker 3>very long time, that finding out the history, even from

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<v Speaker 3>a personal point of view, really helps open my eyes

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<v Speaker 3>and understanding to why I am the person that I

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<v Speaker 3>am today. And a cool thing about against science is

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<v Speaker 3>that you know, especially when we're looking at archaeology and paleontology,

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<v Speaker 3>that it definitely relies on, you know, adaptive history of

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<v Speaker 3>the planet itself in order for us to make that

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<v Speaker 3>type of connection to from where you know, our ancestry

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<v Speaker 3>came from versus now, and why the earth and life

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<v Speaker 3>has developed the way that it has, and even give

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<v Speaker 3>us like an idea of what would possibly become in

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<v Speaker 3>the future as far as like how we're going to

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<v Speaker 3>develop as a species and also how we may even

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<v Speaker 3>develop as a society. So I think it's important for

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<v Speaker 3>us to really be able to like lean into these

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<v Speaker 3>subject matters in order for us to really get a

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<v Speaker 3>better idea of, like, you know, who we are and

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<v Speaker 3>where we're going.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree, I was, I was just thinking, and I

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<v Speaker 1>disagreed with myself. But the idea was, if you believe

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<v Speaker 1>system is such that if something like this could not exist,

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<v Speaker 1>and therefore you disbelieve it, is it possible for you

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<v Speaker 1>to even enjoy or appreciate, come to understand that level

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<v Speaker 1>of knowledge of the before times? Effectively? Can we think

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<v Speaker 1>about that as something that has happened prior and that

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<v Speaker 1>it does affect us? Is that even a question that

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense? But I disagree to myself instantly because then

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<v Speaker 1>I remember that there's I forget what it's called. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a very famous theist who has it, but it's that

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<v Speaker 1>museum of the creationist museum. Yeah, where the humans are

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<v Speaker 1>with the dinosaurs.

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<v Speaker 3>So oh that would be Kent Hoven.

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<v Speaker 2>No, yeah, you're right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a.

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<v Speaker 3>That's Dinah Land, Yes, in Alabama.

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<v Speaker 1>So the fact that that exists current too, I as

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<v Speaker 1>an atheist, going, WHOA, this is neat and like informs

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<v Speaker 1>my understanding of the past. It feels like there's something

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<v Speaker 1>just so much more human about wanting to understand the past,

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<v Speaker 1>no matter where you get your information from. So eli,

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<v Speaker 1>where should I get my information from?

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<v Speaker 3>Is there?

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<v Speaker 1>How should I go about learning the past?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it's really hard to be for us, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the royal us, to get a good grasp of what

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<v Speaker 2>went on in the ancient past, specifically because even in

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<v Speaker 2>recorded history we kind of like fragments of some things

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<v Speaker 2>that some people wrote down, but like you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>everyday lives aren't being documented, and then when you get

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<v Speaker 2>to the ancient past, there wasn't anybody to write it down.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to wait until you find something that suggests something,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you can really only find out like the

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<v Speaker 2>most assumptionless implication of that suggestion of whatever you find.

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<v Speaker 2>So it is really difficult. But that is kind of

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<v Speaker 2>like I said, why you know, scientists rarely change their

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<v Speaker 2>perspectives or their worldviews or like entire models based on

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<v Speaker 2>one person interpreting something in a certain way.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that happens to Well, if you're saying that

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<v Speaker 1>it is very rarely the case that a single person

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<v Speaker 1>changes all of the understood knowledge of that, do you

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<v Speaker 1>think that's because are you aware of the trope of

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<v Speaker 1>the sociologists that would go back go out in like

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<v Speaker 1>the early nineteen hundreds with a like a pick in

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<v Speaker 1>one hand, or the archaeologists with pick in one hand

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<v Speaker 1>and a Bible in the other, where they would go

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<v Speaker 1>out into Egypt during the Egyptology graze and like dig

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<v Speaker 1>things up and then go ah, well, let me interpret

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<v Speaker 1>this from my traditional Christian background like this, This is

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<v Speaker 1>why it seems to me that it's so important that

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<v Speaker 1>all of this information not knowledge, because knowledge is human.

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<v Speaker 1>All of this information gets filtered through many minds that

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<v Speaker 1>we can better interpret it.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's exactly where I was going. It's because that

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<v Speaker 2>is a very point. I think an individual will contradict

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<v Speaker 2>the you know, the scientific consensus based on you know,

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<v Speaker 2>one interpretation, but the scientific consensus rarely changes based on

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<v Speaker 2>one interpretation. And that's why, like you said, Rob, we

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<v Speaker 2>get many, many minds to review data, to look at

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<v Speaker 2>information and analyze it and interpret it and say, based

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<v Speaker 2>on everything that we know that is relevant to this

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<v Speaker 2>thing that we can think of as we're writing this,

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<v Speaker 2>this either does or does not comport with what we

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<v Speaker 2>understand to be reality. And could there be a mistake, Yeah, certainly,

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<v Speaker 2>but we need to find that before we just assume

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<v Speaker 2>that there is one there and throughout the whole thing.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that one more thing, if I just

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<v Speaker 3>piggyback off of what Eli was mentioning, is that we

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<v Speaker 3>have to also understand that one individual, regardless of how

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<v Speaker 3>educated they are, can still hold different biases when it

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<v Speaker 3>comes to the information that they actually you know, consume

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<v Speaker 3>and it's going and how they interpret it versus how

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<v Speaker 3>it should be you know, actually seen are going to

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<v Speaker 3>be two different things. So that is why we have

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<v Speaker 3>peer review. That is why it's important for us to have,

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<v Speaker 3>as you all mentioned, many minds to really weigh in

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<v Speaker 3>on a subject matter so that we can get close

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<v Speaker 3>the closest thing to fact is possible because we had

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<v Speaker 3>many eyes, with many with many people who possess certain

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<v Speaker 3>knowledges to actually interpret the information that's in front of

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<v Speaker 3>them at that time.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's perfect. Honestly, I genuinely think that that's

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<v Speaker 1>really insightful, because what we cannot have, it seems to me,

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<v Speaker 1>is any individual person be able to dictate what is truth.

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<v Speaker 1>And then that's how you get people with dinosaurs. So

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<v Speaker 1>I was just going to cut it there and then

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<v Speaker 1>go hey,