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No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 43 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:01.640 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply a website for detail. 44 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:15.319 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 45 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 46 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:22.639 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer. 47 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:24.639 The Nightstalker BTK. 48 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:29.319 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 49 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:33.520 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 50 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:37.039 Your Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 51 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:53.120 Good Evening. Investigative reporter and author of Nobody's Women, Steve 52 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.879 Miller makes a thoroughly researched inquiry into a murder that 53 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:04.680 rocked the privileged world of Gross Point, Michigan. Bob boshera husband, father, rotary, 54 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:10.280 club president, and community leader. Bob boshera slumlord, philanderer, and 55 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:14.759 BDSM enthusiast, did he also hire a hit on his wife? 56 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:19.120 Jane Bashera lived in Grosse Pointe Park, one of Metro 57 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:23.240 Detroit's wealthiest communities, when she was strangled to death in 58 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:28.759 her own garage by local handyman Joe Gents. When Joe 59 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.560 turned himself in, he told the cops everything, including how 60 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:35.960 he was hired for a hit by Jane's husband, his 61 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:41.159 payment two thousand dollars, and a used Cadillac. Born into 62 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:44.800 one of Michigan's elite families, Bob was sweeping out the 63 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.800 back alley of a property he owned. When his wife 64 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.199 was being killed, he made sure the bartenders at the 65 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:54.360 Hard Luck Lounge saw him there at the time of 66 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:59.240 her murder. He'd often bought brought girlfriends by the same bar, 67 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.599 and for the last next year had been seen with 68 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:07.120 one Rachel Jellette riding around town in her convertible, even 69 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:11.000 showing up at BDSM events in the suburbs of Detroit. 70 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:16.639 When Joe Gents confessed his sixty seven IQ and barfly 71 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:21.199 reputation made him less than credible, Bob successfully denied any 72 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.199 part in his wife's murder, but he couldn't deny his 73 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:28.199 attempt to have Joe killed in prison. The book that 74 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:32.360 we're featuring this evening is Murder in Gross Pointe Park, Privilege, 75 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:36.439 Adultery and the Killing of Jane Vashera, with my special guest, 76 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:39.399 journalist and author Steve Miller. Welcome back to the program, 77 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:40.720 and thank you for geing this interview. 78 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:44.399 Steve Miller, my pleasurement, thanks for having me. 79 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:49.920 Thank you very much. Another wild tale. As we were 80 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:55.439 talking before that just before the program, incredible. Let's get 81 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:59.079 to the question that's used to ask all the time, 82 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.199 and I'll ask you this time, how did you come 83 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:04.759 to be the author of this story. What compelled you 84 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:06.839 to want to write this story? What brought you to 85 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:08.399 this story in particular? 86 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.519 Well, I was actually reviewing going I was in Detroit 87 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:15.040 quite a bit. I live about seventy miles from Detroit. 88 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:18.240 I found myself in the city quite a bit at 89 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:22.680 a certain point, and the story kept popping up, and 90 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:27.519 I'd go and I was something completely, you know, different 91 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:29.000 than this. I was doing a rock and roll book 92 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.199 about Detroit called Detroit Rock City. I was reviewing for that, 93 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:36.839 doing interviews, and so it was twenty twelve and I 94 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:38.759 was in the city a lot, and every place I want, 95 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:41.120 anybody I would talk to would say, well, have you 96 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.680 been following this? This the share case, you know, And 97 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.519 I said no, no, you know, I'm pretty busy. And 98 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.279 pretty soon I started perfectly, you know, reading things, you know, 99 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:52.879 and I talked and I mentioned it conversation with somebody, 100 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:55.959 and so it just kind of crept into my head, 101 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:58.759 you know, it just kept it kept sticking out. It's weird. 102 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:02.000 The the BDFM stuff was coming out and a friend 103 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:04.879 of mine had a radio show there, Charlie Langton. He 104 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:07.600 had interviewed some people. It's getting more and more lurid 105 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.199 and I just started picking up on it and following it, 106 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.720 and eventually I found myself in a position, you know, 107 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:15.839 where somebody said you're going to do another true crime book. 108 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:20.759 That that's someone being my publisher, and I said, I said, sure, 109 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:22.639 I got something for you. Now. It was one of 110 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:24.000 those things where I kind of just said, well, this 111 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.240 is what I got. This is an idea, and they 112 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:28.879 said that it's a great idea. Let's let's let's work 113 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:31.959 on that. So that's where that's that's where it came about. 114 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:36.959 Now this book is called Murder in Gross Point Park, 115 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:41.360 so obviously that's an important part of the story. So 116 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:45.079 explain for our listeners a little just a little bit 117 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:47.800 about Detroit in which people might know about, but Gross 118 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:50.879 Point Park and what is the difference, And just before 119 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:53.920 don't without giving too much away, what's the significance of 120 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:55.480 murdering Gross Point Park. 121 00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:00.439 Well, the idea is it's it's interesting because of course 122 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.079 you know about know about Detroit. But the Points as 123 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:06.839 they call them, there's a several small villages that make 124 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.800 up the what are called the Points. It's traditionally been 125 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.720 the exclusive kind of an exclusive enclave of Detroit. Uh, 126 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:19.920 it's a place where historically money went and did beautiful homes. 127 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.199 The sheriffs, for example, lived on a beautiful street in 128 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:28.439 the huge house. And so it's the idea of murder 129 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.920 there is is very unique that there hadn't been a 130 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.160 murder for a few years and uh, and then you know, 131 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.839 and before that, there hadn't been very many murders either. 132 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.800 So he's uh, you know, this was a this came 133 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:43.120 came out of the blue. It was you know, it 134 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.279 was an odd thing to have happened. Then to compound that, 135 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.680 you know, you had a you had the son of 136 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:55.199 a prominent appellate judge. Uh, you know, was a former 137 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:57.680 Pellet Duch was deceased at the time of the murder. 138 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:02.959 But you had this the sun privilege who was accused. 139 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:05.959 You know, his wife was murdered. He was accused of, 140 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.079 you know, of the murder. Initially they said, well, you know, 141 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.560 it's always a husband, right. So the points are a 142 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.399 very ripsy player of Detroit. 143 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.399 Let's talk about Bob Bushera. You just mentioned that, of 144 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.160 course he comes from a family that's very privileged but 145 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:29.959 also very respected family in terms of the judicial system. 146 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.080 And Bob has a good reputation as well at the 147 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:36.000 time of the murder. So let's give us give us 148 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:38.879 a background on Bob Bushera. What is it really like? 149 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.200 What has he done in his life up to this point, 150 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.360 because we're talking about around fifty years of age when 151 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:48.639 we were talking about him in this story. So tell 152 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:50.080 us a little bit about Bob Bushera. 153 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.399 Well, I mean, Bob cher was let's say, the son 154 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:59.720 of George Shera junior, who was initially appointed at the 155 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:03.519 state Pellet judge and uh, and then he was subsequently 156 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.240 elected and he was very successful. He went on to 157 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.799 become a corporate council for a federal mogul, which is 158 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:15.559 a an auto connected company. And you know, he was 159 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:17.799 Bob a share. I served as head of the local 160 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.919 rotary club. He was a deacon at Episcopal Church. He 161 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:22.960 was a member of the local country club. He was 162 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.720 a golfer. He was a landlord. He had you know, 163 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.799 residential and commercial properties, and he was just kind of 164 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:32.440 a man about town. You know, everybody knew him. It's 165 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:35.320 the Big Bob. Big Bob was his license. He had 166 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.240 his mom got him a plate, vanity plate, the Big Bob. 167 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.279 And and he was he was literally he's a big guy, 168 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:45.720 big presence, big boys talking all the time, and you know, 169 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:48.879 he was he had a big personality and some people 170 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:52.279 liked him, some people didn't. But but that was his deal, 171 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.480 you know, And he could say he was he was 172 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:58.679 just born into born into money and he and he 173 00:09:58.879 --> 00:09:59.399 stayed with it. 174 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:04.600 Now, tell us about Jane Basher. She's she's a little 175 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:07.600 bit older than him in age. And and before we 176 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.200 talk about his daughter, Jessica, tell us a little bit 177 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:13.679 about how we met Jane Cheron. When when they got together. 178 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:21.879 Jane was Jane was Bob's second wife. Bob we've been 179 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:26.159 married young and and so on, so and so this 180 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.960 was his second wife. And he met not long after 181 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:33.360 they met, not you know, not not too long after 182 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:37.320 Bob divorced. Jane had never been married before, and she'd 183 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.399 you know, she'd graduated from from a university and uh, 184 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.200 she was she was a good student. She's a business, 185 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:47.000 business student. She went on to get a you know, 186 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:51.519 really pretty good job. They met around nineteen eighty three, 187 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.399 and they met at a party, and you know, in 188 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.240 eighty five they got married. And you know, again, Jane, 189 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.279 Jane came from a fairly middle class family. Bob came 190 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:07.360 from an fluent upper class family at you know, he 191 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.960 was a churchgoer, family oriented and ambitious, that kind of stuff. 192 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:17.159 And Jane was a somewhat reserved, if not a dignified 193 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:21.240 woman with a great future. So when they married in 194 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:24.240 eighty five, this is a pretty good Yeah, it was 195 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:25.080 a pretty good marriage. 196 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:31.639 Now they have a child shortly after Jessica. But you 197 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:35.720 talk about what he describes his relationship as to his 198 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:40.000 friends and people that he might meet in that relationship 199 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.320 in that time, and the way she described their relationship, 200 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:45.320 which was vastly different. 201 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:48.919 Tell us about that. Well. But by the time, by 202 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.840 the time we got to the you know, they had 203 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:53.759 two kids. They had two children and had one a 204 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.840 son in nineteen eighty eight, daughter in nineteen ninety two. 205 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:03.480 And uh, his idea of the marriage, of course, was 206 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:08.480 he would say it's a it's pretty much. As things 207 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:14.240 progressed and the children left and so on. Bob had 208 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:18.639 a proclivity towards the BDSM community. Let's see if we 209 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.879 get this right, bondage discipline, say, to the masochism, it's 210 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:28.240 a lifestyle based in in those in those four elements. 211 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:34.000 And and so he his deal was, and he always 212 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:38.200 contended that his wife really didn't care. She didn't want 213 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:40.519 to have anything to do with it, but let's let 214 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:43.120 him do what he wants to do. Jane, on the 215 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.159 other hand, had told her friends there's nothing like that, 216 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.320 and that's what they were repeating it back to her. 217 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.639 But you know, there was definitely a difference in opinion 218 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.399 and views of how you know this, Uh, this proclivity 219 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:59.720 was viewed in the in the relationship. Further, Bob had 220 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:03.879 grow friends, several of them and as you pointed out, 221 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:07.639 the outset his serious one was Rachel Jillette, who was 222 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.679 a secretary at Wayne State University local university there in Detroit. 223 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.559 Now we talk about this BDM lifestyle, but what I 224 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:23.200 had mentioned that he had expressed the people who had 225 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.039 an open relationship, and that's what when when you talk 226 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:29.399 about how he posted on BDSM sites as well, he 227 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:31.879 said he was a widower with someone in college and 228 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:37.039 so he was misrepresenting so wasn't living any life of honesty, 229 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:40.279 And how he portrayed himself was that had an open relationship, 230 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:42.440 but she would say to her girlfriends that he was 231 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.320 impotent and couldn't get it up. So there was a 232 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:48.960 different representation of their relationship, wasn't there. 233 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:52.120 Yeah, there was. I mean, let's face it, you know, 234 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.320 it's not you're not going to go on the BDSM sites. 235 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:59.919 You know, Master Bob married father too. Yeah, I don't, 236 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:01.799 I don't know, you know, that's not really you know, 237 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:04.519 that's not pulling a lot of a lot of partners. 238 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:08.600 But uh, Master Bob, you know, widowed or whatever. That's 239 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.879 that's you know, that's a little bit more sympathetic. I mean, 240 00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:14.120 there was a lot more. Of course, there's a lot 241 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:16.759 more to that to that ad, you know, but he 242 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:19.200 you know, in which he details what he can do, 243 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.600 how he's the dominant, dominant one, et cetera, et cetera, 244 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.279 and he's you know, he's he's he's quite the man. 245 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:29.120 If you uh, you know, if you if you would 246 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:34.480 read his his posting online and effect what I found 247 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:36.840 he had had the dungeon too. You know. 248 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.360 What I found fascinating. We'll talk about the dungeon right 249 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.320 now too, is that what I found fascinating was this 250 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.000 guy that, as you portray in the book, is not 251 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:49.080 really liked, but a lot of people it's look at 252 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:53.919 a loud mouthed Cooke snorting blowhard here from for a 253 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.120 lot of people, including that this landlord, and we'll talk 254 00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:59.720 about what kind of landlord he is too, but he's 255 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:03.039 on the lower level of you know, landlords than being 256 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:08.320 appreciated as a good landlord. But getting back to this, 257 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.840 you know, Master Bob for a guy that's impotent, it 258 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:14.320 just I just found it fascinating. 259 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:14.559 Again. 260 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:17.360 I had no idea that we're talking about a lifestyle 261 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.679 where there's these women. Again, not too many people think 262 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:22.919 he's that great, but there are women on this site 263 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:26.279 that think he's incredible and are willing to be submissive 264 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.159 to him. But despite that, they're just they're not idiots. 265 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.960 They're very, very charmed by this guy. And he's a 266 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:37.720 master despite being totally impodent. It's very fascinating to me. 267 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.039 So may you told us a little bit about about that. 268 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:43.279 Master Bob is ad is add one of his ads. 269 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:47.559 Master Bob a complete trainer. I will open train and 270 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:49.799 guide you in this lifestyle off what you see is 271 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.159 learning through doing that. I'm here and look for you 272 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.240 to come to me, Neil and have all your desires 273 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.480 and cravings opens to you. Are you ready for Master Bob? 274 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.559 I will make you love and enjoy a lovely mix 275 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:05.200 of moderate pain and pleasure. So I guess it just 276 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.039 goes to show you someone out there for everyone. 277 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:17.000 Now, his oldest child, Jessica. You also talk about Jessica 278 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:20.399 knowing what's going on in the relationship between their parents 279 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.720 and to the point of reading his text. So tell 280 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.960 us about this exchange in the home. 281 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.519 Yeah, and that was, you know, that was really uncomfortable. 282 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:35.360 I mean, you know, to think about that, that she's 283 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:40.200 she's reading these texts and so on and and so so, 284 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:42.799 I don't know, it was you know, it was kind 285 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.480 of like, you know, she would see these and they 286 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.480 hear they were text to his girlfriends and and so on. 287 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.480 And then then what's worse is he had to explain 288 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:57.519 to her that he had, you know, some sort of 289 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:02.000 a rectile dysfunction thing going and so yeah, you know, 290 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.599 and to top that off, this so she saw what 291 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:07.640 what she sees. She saw something on his cell phone, 292 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.519 a message something about get down and give me head 293 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.880 blah blah blah. This is something that the schera bob. 294 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.160 It's sent to a woman. And then Jessica goes and 295 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:20.039 takes the phone, takes it and shows him, and she's like, 296 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:20.440 what is this? 297 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:21.480 What is this? 298 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:27.279 He just takes it and and deletes the message. Then 299 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:29.119 he goes, I don't know what you're talking about a message. 300 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.720 It's a very weird way to act. I don't quite 301 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:36.160 you know, it's it's it's brutal. 302 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:42.039 Now part of this lifestyle, he has another twist to it, 303 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:46.480 or maybe this is a common part of the BDSM lifestyle. 304 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.119 They try to bring in the third person that is 305 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.680 agreeing to these terms as well, and all three connect 306 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.000 and because it's online, there isn't a physical their meeting 307 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.680 at the coffee shop right away. So there's this meeting. 308 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:02.079 So tell us about Rachel, and tell us about another 309 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.359 person named Porter before we talk about Lehman, because of 310 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.000 all these characters do come into play and much more 311 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.240 importance later on. So tell us about Rachel, and tell 312 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:18.319 about this person named Porter and some some of the well, 313 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:23.000 one of the major events that happens in the book, well. 314 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:28.359 He Bob met this woman named Vanita Porter on a 315 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:32.880 BDSM site. You know, Vanita Porter was a single mom 316 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.400 in the forties. She had some sort of financial problem 317 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.799 and you know, Bob, you know, talked about you know, 318 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:41.759 and he said hey, I can help, you know, and 319 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:43.960 she's she even said, she said, well, he was looking 320 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.640 for a submissive and she needed food and chose for 321 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:53.880 her kids and so so really she she she somehow 322 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.319 became like, you know, part of this little family, and 323 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:58.279 I guess Bob passed it off as he was trying 324 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:00.519 to help her. He did this, you know, this is 325 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.839 kind soul who was helping Bevanita Porter. And she went 326 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:09.039 to church even with his family, and and even you know, 327 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:13.279 got Bob gifts at Christmas. But actually they were having 328 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:16.079 you know, they were kind of like in a you know, 329 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.559 kind of an odd kind of way, they're having a relationship. 330 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:21.799 I mean, I don't know really what that know, the 331 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.920 elements of it were based in rooted in b DSM 332 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.559 because that was their whole deal. So, I mean, they'd 333 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:30.839 gone to church together, and she also joined the local 334 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.400 rotary club because Bob said, it's great to meet people 335 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:43.599 blah blah blah. And so so one Bob has I 336 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:46.440 also has, you know, is hanging out with Rachel as well. 337 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:52.359 He'd already met Rachel and so somehow Bob, you know, 338 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:58.880 a weird thing, he arranged to meet Rachel and Avanita 339 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:03.559 at the same time, and that meant they all met 340 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.279 at this this place and somehow you know who knows, 341 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.599 you know that what he was thinking. But but he 342 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.480 set it up so that Nita would walk in on 343 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.799 him and Rachel having sex at this at this place, 344 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:20.960 and it was just very strange. It was just, you know, 345 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:22.960 an odd thing to do, and it was brutal to 346 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.880 hear about, because and again you're you're looking at somebody 347 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.759 and it's kind of an odd, callous kind of thing 348 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:35.079 and it's kind of inhumane. But that was an odd episode. 349 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:36.920 And I'll tell you when that guy relaid in court, 350 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.240 nobody could believe. They thought that was just you know, 351 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.559 but again, this this whole case. Every time I wrote 352 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.799 something on this, every time I started writing things that 353 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:46.799 I'd be writing, even reading them back, and I think 354 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.759 that just doesn't even seem plausible. But you know that 355 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:51.559 I have to go back and read my notes again 356 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:54.680 and did I just imagine that's there? You know, did 357 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.319 this really happen? You know, is there really somebody that 358 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:58.319 does this kind of stuff? 359 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.039 Now meanwhile in the relationship, because let's talk about what 360 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:08.279 at the same time is happening simultaneously, and this is 361 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.960 A fascinating part of this book is that the relationship 362 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:19.000 he's having with Rachel, which is his BDSM partner, and 363 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.279 he's also talking about other plans outside of the BDSM, 364 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.440 mostly fantasy world, but real concrete plans of cohabitation and 365 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.000 I guess romance. But anyway, we'll get you to talk 366 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.880 about that. But at the same time, what's going on 367 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:40.240 with Jane in the household? We talked about Jessica knowing 368 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:45.640 that her father was beyond strange, but that Jane was 369 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.559 moving towards a divorce. So tell us about these two 370 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:52.640 simultaneous situations and how he represents to both parties. 371 00:21:55.039 --> 00:22:00.519 Well, I mean, what happens is what happens. I guess 372 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:06.359 you know. Jane is she's she's considering that kind of thing, 373 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.839 and she's at that that point, she's not really she'd 374 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.440 asked her for it. It was kind of a she 375 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.160 started acquiring her where her Jane started inquiring her friends, 376 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:18.640 what's it like to be single again? You know, she 377 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.000 asked them over a freshly divorced friends, and so on 378 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.680 and so forth, and then finally she actually decided that 379 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:26.519 she was going to try to build the whole thing 380 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.880 back with them. With Bob. That was her intent. That 381 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:33.119 was Jane was, you know, I'm you know, we're gonna 382 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:35.880 we're going to uh, we're going to make this work 383 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:39.480 and so on. And they were taking trips. They were 384 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.880 taking trips together and you know, having fun and she 385 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:47.920 you know, you know, they actually towards the end before 386 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.960 Jane was murdered, they were actually having things were okay. 387 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.799 And meanwhile, though, Bob is looking at houses and promising 388 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:02.200 Rachel that he's going to be divorced soon and actually 389 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.839 she thought he was divorced at some points, and uh, 390 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:06.960 and that you know, they're going to move in together 391 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.400 and live happily over here. They're actually looking at houses 392 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:13.960 in gross Point, you know. 393 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:21.880 As a couple, and they're also going out unabashedly like 394 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.319 a couple and in like again in the same small 395 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.759 relatively small area with and he encounters it's amazing in 396 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.640 the book too, they're looking at a home and they 397 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:36.920 encounter the friends of Jane and Bob. And again he's 398 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.039 a smooth talker. He has to kind of talk his 399 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.119 way out of that one as well. So he's very glib. 400 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.000 He's very good, this guy, isn't he. 401 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.279