Speaker 1: When you make decisions for your company, you look for
Speaker 1: the no brainers, and if you have a lot of
Speaker 1: mailing to do, stamps dot com is the ultimate no brainer.
Speaker 1: Mail checks, invoices, documents, and everything you need to keep
Speaker 1: your business running. Get rates up to eighty nine percent
Speaker 1: off usps and ups, and with a mobile app, you
Speaker 1: can take care of mailing on the go. Make the
Speaker 1: same no brainer decisions is over one million other businesses
Speaker 1: with stamps dot Com. Sign up at stamps dot com
Speaker 1: with code Program for a special offer. That's Stamps dot
Speaker 1: Com Code Program.
Speaker 2: Okay, round two.
Speaker 3: Name something that's not boring.
Speaker 4: Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire.
Speaker 3: Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbu Casino Chum.
Speaker 3: That's right, chumbuck Casino dot com as over one hundred
Speaker 3: casino style games joined today and play for free for
Speaker 3: your chance to redeem some serious prizes. Chum Chumbucasino dot
Speaker 3: com by plus Stars, The Conditions the Bus Webster.
Speaker 2: Hell, Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a
Speaker 2: flight the other day playing one of my favorite social
Speaker 2: spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over
Speaker 2: at the person sitting next to me, and you know
Speaker 2: what they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence,
Speaker 2: I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa
Speaker 2: Casino's home to hundreds oft casino style games. You can
Speaker 2: play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet.
Speaker 2: So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to
Speaker 2: claim you're free. Welcome bonus. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com,
Speaker 2: and live the Chumba Laine.
Speaker 1: No, we're necessary void where everybo I lost in terms
Speaker 1: of conditions of eating.
Speaker 5: Plus with the Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky
Speaker 5: just about anywhere.
Speaker 6: It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the
Speaker 6: weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a
Speaker 6: while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's
Speaker 6: just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest
Speaker 6: you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and
Speaker 6: start getting lucky.
Speaker 5: Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you
Speaker 5: feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law
Speaker 5: eighteen plus terms and conditions apply a website for detail.
Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer.
Speaker 7: The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 4: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 4: Your Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good Evening. Investigative reporter and author of Nobody's Women, Steve
Speaker 7: Miller makes a thoroughly researched inquiry into a murder that
Speaker 7: rocked the privileged world of Gross Point, Michigan. Bob boshera husband, father, rotary,
Speaker 7: club president, and community leader. Bob boshera slumlord, philanderer, and
Speaker 7: BDSM enthusiast, did he also hire a hit on his wife?
Speaker 7: Jane Bashera lived in Grosse Pointe Park, one of Metro
Speaker 7: Detroit's wealthiest communities, when she was strangled to death in
Speaker 7: her own garage by local handyman Joe Gents. When Joe
Speaker 7: turned himself in, he told the cops everything, including how
Speaker 7: he was hired for a hit by Jane's husband, his
Speaker 7: payment two thousand dollars, and a used Cadillac. Born into
Speaker 7: one of Michigan's elite families, Bob was sweeping out the
Speaker 7: back alley of a property he owned. When his wife
Speaker 7: was being killed, he made sure the bartenders at the
Speaker 7: Hard Luck Lounge saw him there at the time of
Speaker 7: her murder. He'd often bought brought girlfriends by the same bar,
Speaker 7: and for the last next year had been seen with
Speaker 7: one Rachel Jellette riding around town in her convertible, even
Speaker 7: showing up at BDSM events in the suburbs of Detroit.
Speaker 7: When Joe Gents confessed his sixty seven IQ and barfly
Speaker 7: reputation made him less than credible, Bob successfully denied any
Speaker 7: part in his wife's murder, but he couldn't deny his
Speaker 7: attempt to have Joe killed in prison. The book that
Speaker 7: we're featuring this evening is Murder in Gross Pointe Park, Privilege,
Speaker 7: Adultery and the Killing of Jane Vashera, with my special guest,
Speaker 7: journalist and author Steve Miller. Welcome back to the program,
Speaker 7: and thank you for geing this interview.
Speaker 8: Steve Miller, my pleasurement, thanks for having me.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much. Another wild tale. As we were
Speaker 7: talking before that just before the program, incredible. Let's get
Speaker 7: to the question that's used to ask all the time,
Speaker 7: and I'll ask you this time, how did you come
Speaker 7: to be the author of this story. What compelled you
Speaker 7: to want to write this story? What brought you to
Speaker 7: this story in particular?
Speaker 8: Well, I was actually reviewing going I was in Detroit
Speaker 8: quite a bit. I live about seventy miles from Detroit.
Speaker 8: I found myself in the city quite a bit at
Speaker 8: a certain point, and the story kept popping up, and
Speaker 8: I'd go and I was something completely, you know, different
Speaker 8: than this. I was doing a rock and roll book
Speaker 8: about Detroit called Detroit Rock City. I was reviewing for that,
Speaker 8: doing interviews, and so it was twenty twelve and I
Speaker 8: was in the city a lot, and every place I want,
Speaker 8: anybody I would talk to would say, well, have you
Speaker 8: been following this? This the share case, you know, And
Speaker 8: I said no, no, you know, I'm pretty busy. And
Speaker 8: pretty soon I started perfectly, you know, reading things, you know,
Speaker 8: and I talked and I mentioned it conversation with somebody,
Speaker 8: and so it just kind of crept into my head,
Speaker 8: you know, it just kept it kept sticking out. It's weird.
Speaker 8: The the BDFM stuff was coming out and a friend
Speaker 8: of mine had a radio show there, Charlie Langton. He
Speaker 8: had interviewed some people. It's getting more and more lurid
Speaker 8: and I just started picking up on it and following it,
Speaker 8: and eventually I found myself in a position, you know,
Speaker 8: where somebody said you're going to do another true crime book.
Speaker 8: That that's someone being my publisher, and I said, I said, sure,
Speaker 8: I got something for you. Now. It was one of
Speaker 8: those things where I kind of just said, well, this
Speaker 8: is what I got. This is an idea, and they
Speaker 8: said that it's a great idea. Let's let's let's work
Speaker 8: on that. So that's where that's that's where it came about.
Speaker 7: Now this book is called Murder in Gross Point Park,
Speaker 7: so obviously that's an important part of the story. So
Speaker 7: explain for our listeners a little just a little bit
Speaker 7: about Detroit in which people might know about, but Gross
Speaker 7: Point Park and what is the difference, And just before
Speaker 7: don't without giving too much away, what's the significance of
Speaker 7: murdering Gross Point Park.
Speaker 8: Well, the idea is it's it's interesting because of course
Speaker 8: you know about know about Detroit. But the Points as
Speaker 8: they call them, there's a several small villages that make
Speaker 8: up the what are called the Points. It's traditionally been
Speaker 8: the exclusive kind of an exclusive enclave of Detroit. Uh,
Speaker 8: it's a place where historically money went and did beautiful homes.
Speaker 8: The sheriffs, for example, lived on a beautiful street in
Speaker 8: the huge house. And so it's the idea of murder
Speaker 8: there is is very unique that there hadn't been a
Speaker 8: murder for a few years and uh, and then you know,
Speaker 8: and before that, there hadn't been very many murders either.
Speaker 8: So he's uh, you know, this was a this came
Speaker 8: came out of the blue. It was you know, it
Speaker 8: was an odd thing to have happened. Then to compound that,
Speaker 8: you know, you had a you had the son of
Speaker 8: a prominent appellate judge. Uh, you know, was a former
Speaker 8: Pellet Duch was deceased at the time of the murder.
Speaker 8: But you had this the sun privilege who was accused.
Speaker 8: You know, his wife was murdered. He was accused of,
Speaker 8: you know, of the murder. Initially they said, well, you know,
Speaker 8: it's always a husband, right. So the points are a
Speaker 8: very ripsy player of Detroit.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about Bob Bushera. You just mentioned that, of
Speaker 7: course he comes from a family that's very privileged but
Speaker 7: also very respected family in terms of the judicial system.
Speaker 7: And Bob has a good reputation as well at the
Speaker 7: time of the murder. So let's give us give us
Speaker 7: a background on Bob Bushera. What is it really like?
Speaker 7: What has he done in his life up to this point,
Speaker 7: because we're talking about around fifty years of age when
Speaker 7: we were talking about him in this story. So tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about Bob Bushera.
Speaker 8: Well, I mean, Bob cher was let's say, the son
Speaker 8: of George Shera junior, who was initially appointed at the
Speaker 8: state Pellet judge and uh, and then he was subsequently
Speaker 8: elected and he was very successful. He went on to
Speaker 8: become a corporate council for a federal mogul, which is
Speaker 8: a an auto connected company. And you know, he was
Speaker 8: Bob a share. I served as head of the local
Speaker 8: rotary club. He was a deacon at Episcopal Church. He
Speaker 8: was a member of the local country club. He was
Speaker 8: a golfer. He was a landlord. He had you know,
Speaker 8: residential and commercial properties, and he was just kind of
Speaker 8: a man about town. You know, everybody knew him. It's
Speaker 8: the Big Bob. Big Bob was his license. He had
Speaker 8: his mom got him a plate, vanity plate, the Big Bob.
Speaker 8: And and he was he was literally he's a big guy,
Speaker 8: big presence, big boys talking all the time, and you know,
Speaker 8: he was he had a big personality and some people
Speaker 8: liked him, some people didn't. But but that was his deal,
Speaker 8: you know, And he could say he was he was
Speaker 8: just born into born into money and he and he
Speaker 8: stayed with it.
Speaker 7: Now, tell us about Jane Basher. She's she's a little
Speaker 7: bit older than him in age. And and before we
Speaker 7: talk about his daughter, Jessica, tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about how we met Jane Cheron. When when they got together.
Speaker 8: Jane was Jane was Bob's second wife. Bob we've been
Speaker 8: married young and and so on, so and so this
Speaker 8: was his second wife. And he met not long after
Speaker 8: they met, not you know, not not too long after
Speaker 8: Bob divorced. Jane had never been married before, and she'd
Speaker 8: you know, she'd graduated from from a university and uh,
Speaker 8: she was she was a good student. She's a business,
Speaker 8: business student. She went on to get a you know,
Speaker 8: really pretty good job. They met around nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 8: and they met at a party, and you know, in
Speaker 8: eighty five they got married. And you know, again, Jane,
Speaker 8: Jane came from a fairly middle class family. Bob came
Speaker 8: from an fluent upper class family at you know, he
Speaker 8: was a churchgoer, family oriented and ambitious, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 8: And Jane was a somewhat reserved, if not a dignified
Speaker 8: woman with a great future. So when they married in
Speaker 8: eighty five, this is a pretty good Yeah, it was
Speaker 8: a pretty good marriage.
Speaker 7: Now they have a child shortly after Jessica. But you
Speaker 7: talk about what he describes his relationship as to his
Speaker 7: friends and people that he might meet in that relationship
Speaker 7: in that time, and the way she described their relationship,
Speaker 7: which was vastly different.
Speaker 8: Tell us about that. Well. But by the time, by
Speaker 8: the time we got to the you know, they had
Speaker 8: two kids. They had two children and had one a
Speaker 8: son in nineteen eighty eight, daughter in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 8: And uh, his idea of the marriage, of course, was
Speaker 8: he would say it's a it's pretty much. As things
Speaker 8: progressed and the children left and so on. Bob had
Speaker 8: a proclivity towards the BDSM community. Let's see if we
Speaker 8: get this right, bondage discipline, say, to the masochism, it's
Speaker 8: a lifestyle based in in those in those four elements.
Speaker 8: And and so he his deal was, and he always
Speaker 8: contended that his wife really didn't care. She didn't want
Speaker 8: to have anything to do with it, but let's let
Speaker 8: him do what he wants to do. Jane, on the
Speaker 8: other hand, had told her friends there's nothing like that,
Speaker 8: and that's what they were repeating it back to her.
Speaker 8: But you know, there was definitely a difference in opinion
Speaker 8: and views of how you know this, Uh, this proclivity
Speaker 8: was viewed in the in the relationship. Further, Bob had
Speaker 8: grow friends, several of them and as you pointed out,
Speaker 8: the outset his serious one was Rachel Jillette, who was
Speaker 8: a secretary at Wayne State University local university there in Detroit.
Speaker 7: Now we talk about this BDM lifestyle, but what I
Speaker 7: had mentioned that he had expressed the people who had
Speaker 7: an open relationship, and that's what when when you talk
Speaker 7: about how he posted on BDSM sites as well, he
Speaker 7: said he was a widower with someone in college and
Speaker 7: so he was misrepresenting so wasn't living any life of honesty,
Speaker 7: And how he portrayed himself was that had an open relationship,
Speaker 7: but she would say to her girlfriends that he was
Speaker 7: impotent and couldn't get it up. So there was a
Speaker 7: different representation of their relationship, wasn't there.
Speaker 8: Yeah, there was. I mean, let's face it, you know,
Speaker 8: it's not you're not going to go on the BDSM sites.
Speaker 8: You know, Master Bob married father too. Yeah, I don't,
Speaker 8: I don't know, you know, that's not really you know,
Speaker 8: that's not pulling a lot of a lot of partners.
Speaker 8: But uh, Master Bob, you know, widowed or whatever. That's
Speaker 8: that's you know, that's a little bit more sympathetic. I mean,
Speaker 8: there was a lot more. Of course, there's a lot
Speaker 8: more to that to that ad, you know, but he
Speaker 8: you know, in which he details what he can do,
Speaker 8: how he's the dominant, dominant one, et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 8: and he's you know, he's he's he's quite the man.
Speaker 8: If you uh, you know, if you if you would
Speaker 8: read his his posting online and effect what I found
Speaker 8: he had had the dungeon too. You know.
Speaker 7: What I found fascinating. We'll talk about the dungeon right
Speaker 7: now too, is that what I found fascinating was this
Speaker 7: guy that, as you portray in the book, is not
Speaker 7: really liked, but a lot of people it's look at
Speaker 7: a loud mouthed Cooke snorting blowhard here from for a
Speaker 7: lot of people, including that this landlord, and we'll talk
Speaker 7: about what kind of landlord he is too, but he's
Speaker 7: on the lower level of you know, landlords than being
Speaker 7: appreciated as a good landlord. But getting back to this,
Speaker 7: you know, Master Bob for a guy that's impotent, it
Speaker 7: just I just found it fascinating.
Speaker 8: Again.
Speaker 7: I had no idea that we're talking about a lifestyle
Speaker 7: where there's these women. Again, not too many people think
Speaker 7: he's that great, but there are women on this site
Speaker 7: that think he's incredible and are willing to be submissive
Speaker 7: to him. But despite that, they're just they're not idiots.
Speaker 7: They're very, very charmed by this guy. And he's a
Speaker 7: master despite being totally impodent. It's very fascinating to me.
Speaker 8: So may you told us a little bit about about that.
Speaker 8: Master Bob is ad is add one of his ads.
Speaker 8: Master Bob a complete trainer. I will open train and
Speaker 8: guide you in this lifestyle off what you see is
Speaker 8: learning through doing that. I'm here and look for you
Speaker 8: to come to me, Neil and have all your desires
Speaker 8: and cravings opens to you. Are you ready for Master Bob?
Speaker 8: I will make you love and enjoy a lovely mix
Speaker 8: of moderate pain and pleasure. So I guess it just
Speaker 8: goes to show you someone out there for everyone.
Speaker 7: Now, his oldest child, Jessica. You also talk about Jessica
Speaker 7: knowing what's going on in the relationship between their parents
Speaker 7: and to the point of reading his text. So tell
Speaker 7: us about this exchange in the home.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and that was, you know, that was really uncomfortable.
Speaker 8: I mean, you know, to think about that, that she's
Speaker 8: she's reading these texts and so on and and so so,
Speaker 8: I don't know, it was you know, it was kind
Speaker 8: of like, you know, she would see these and they
Speaker 8: hear they were text to his girlfriends and and so on.
Speaker 8: And then then what's worse is he had to explain
Speaker 8: to her that he had, you know, some sort of
Speaker 8: a rectile dysfunction thing going and so yeah, you know,
Speaker 8: and to top that off, this so she saw what
Speaker 8: what she sees. She saw something on his cell phone,
Speaker 8: a message something about get down and give me head
Speaker 8: blah blah blah. This is something that the schera bob.
Speaker 8: It's sent to a woman. And then Jessica goes and
Speaker 8: takes the phone, takes it and shows him, and she's like,
Speaker 8: what is this?
Speaker 3: What is this?
Speaker 8: He just takes it and and deletes the message. Then
Speaker 8: he goes, I don't know what you're talking about a message.
Speaker 8: It's a very weird way to act. I don't quite
Speaker 8: you know, it's it's it's brutal.
Speaker 7: Now part of this lifestyle, he has another twist to it,
Speaker 7: or maybe this is a common part of the BDSM lifestyle.
Speaker 7: They try to bring in the third person that is
Speaker 7: agreeing to these terms as well, and all three connect
Speaker 7: and because it's online, there isn't a physical their meeting
Speaker 7: at the coffee shop right away. So there's this meeting.
Speaker 7: So tell us about Rachel, and tell us about another
Speaker 7: person named Porter before we talk about Lehman, because of
Speaker 7: all these characters do come into play and much more
Speaker 7: importance later on. So tell us about Rachel, and tell
Speaker 7: about this person named Porter and some some of the well,
Speaker 7: one of the major events that happens in the book, well.
Speaker 8: He Bob met this woman named Vanita Porter on a
Speaker 8: BDSM site. You know, Vanita Porter was a single mom
Speaker 8: in the forties. She had some sort of financial problem
Speaker 8: and you know, Bob, you know, talked about you know,
Speaker 8: and he said hey, I can help, you know, and
Speaker 8: she's she even said, she said, well, he was looking
Speaker 8: for a submissive and she needed food and chose for
Speaker 8: her kids and so so really she she she somehow
Speaker 8: became like, you know, part of this little family, and
Speaker 8: I guess Bob passed it off as he was trying
Speaker 8: to help her. He did this, you know, this is
Speaker 8: kind soul who was helping Bevanita Porter. And she went
Speaker 8: to church even with his family, and and even you know,
Speaker 8: got Bob gifts at Christmas. But actually they were having
Speaker 8: you know, they were kind of like in a you know,
Speaker 8: kind of an odd kind of way, they're having a relationship.
Speaker 8: I mean, I don't know really what that know, the
Speaker 8: elements of it were based in rooted in b DSM
Speaker 8: because that was their whole deal. So, I mean, they'd
Speaker 8: gone to church together, and she also joined the local
Speaker 8: rotary club because Bob said, it's great to meet people
Speaker 8: blah blah blah. And so so one Bob has I
Speaker 8: also has, you know, is hanging out with Rachel as well.
Speaker 8: He'd already met Rachel and so somehow Bob, you know,
Speaker 8: a weird thing, he arranged to meet Rachel and Avanita
Speaker 8: at the same time, and that meant they all met
Speaker 8: at this this place and somehow you know who knows,
Speaker 8: you know that what he was thinking. But but he
Speaker 8: set it up so that Nita would walk in on
Speaker 8: him and Rachel having sex at this at this place,
Speaker 8: and it was just very strange. It was just, you know,
Speaker 8: an odd thing to do, and it was brutal to
Speaker 8: hear about, because and again you're you're looking at somebody
Speaker 8: and it's kind of an odd, callous kind of thing
Speaker 8: and it's kind of inhumane. But that was an odd episode.
Speaker 8: And I'll tell you when that guy relaid in court,
Speaker 8: nobody could believe. They thought that was just you know,
Speaker 8: but again, this this whole case. Every time I wrote
Speaker 8: something on this, every time I started writing things that
Speaker 8: I'd be writing, even reading them back, and I think
Speaker 8: that just doesn't even seem plausible. But you know that
Speaker 8: I have to go back and read my notes again
Speaker 8: and did I just imagine that's there? You know, did
Speaker 8: this really happen? You know, is there really somebody that
Speaker 8: does this kind of stuff?
Speaker 7: Now meanwhile in the relationship, because let's talk about what
Speaker 7: at the same time is happening simultaneously, and this is
Speaker 7: A fascinating part of this book is that the relationship
Speaker 7: he's having with Rachel, which is his BDSM partner, and
Speaker 7: he's also talking about other plans outside of the BDSM,
Speaker 7: mostly fantasy world, but real concrete plans of cohabitation and
Speaker 7: I guess romance. But anyway, we'll get you to talk
Speaker 7: about that. But at the same time, what's going on
Speaker 7: with Jane in the household? We talked about Jessica knowing
Speaker 7: that her father was beyond strange, but that Jane was
Speaker 7: moving towards a divorce. So tell us about these two
Speaker 7: simultaneous situations and how he represents to both parties.
Speaker 8: Well, I mean, what happens is what happens. I guess
Speaker 8: you know. Jane is she's she's considering that kind of thing,
Speaker 8: and she's at that that point, she's not really she'd
Speaker 8: asked her for it. It was kind of a she
Speaker 8: started acquiring her where her Jane started inquiring her friends,
Speaker 8: what's it like to be single again? You know, she
Speaker 8: asked them over a freshly divorced friends, and so on
Speaker 8: and so forth, and then finally she actually decided that
Speaker 8: she was going to try to build the whole thing
Speaker 8: back with them. With Bob. That was her intent. That
Speaker 8: was Jane was, you know, I'm you know, we're gonna
Speaker 8: we're going to uh, we're going to make this work
Speaker 8: and so on. And they were taking trips. They were
Speaker 8: taking trips together and you know, having fun and she
Speaker 8: you know, you know, they actually towards the end before
Speaker 8: Jane was murdered, they were actually having things were okay.
Speaker 8: And meanwhile, though, Bob is looking at houses and promising
Speaker 8: Rachel that he's going to be divorced soon and actually
Speaker 8: she thought he was divorced at some points, and uh,
Speaker 8: and that you know, they're going to move in together
Speaker 8: and live happily over here. They're actually looking at houses
Speaker 8: in gross Point, you know.
Speaker 7: As a couple, and they're also going out unabashedly like
Speaker 7: a couple and in like again in the same small
Speaker 7: relatively small area with and he encounters it's amazing in
Speaker 7: the book too, they're looking at a home and they
Speaker 7: encounter the friends of Jane and Bob. And again he's
Speaker 7: a smooth talker. He has to kind of talk his
Speaker 7: way out of that one as well. So he's very glib.
Speaker 7: He's very good, this guy, isn't he.
Speaker 8: Yeah, he's just how just how And I think that
Speaker 8: was part of his things, that well, we did everything,
Speaker 8: I we just I guess you know, it's all right,
Speaker 8: you must know about it. Car never said been shopped
Speaker 8: together at like, you know, at Kroger in you know,
Speaker 8: right there in the or right far from Bob's house.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about finances to what was Bob purporting to
Speaker 7: be in terms of his wealth to someone like Rachel,
Speaker 7: and what was the real situation. How well was he
Speaker 7: doing financially or not well?
Speaker 8: He he would say that he was he'd say he
Speaker 8: was doing all right. He said he you know, he
Speaker 8: had plenty of money. The fact is he was overly leveraged.
Speaker 8: He had he had these properties, you know, they were
Speaker 8: actually he and Rachel were looking at this house. It
Speaker 8: was worth over three hundred grand and you know, and
Speaker 8: but you know his mom Actually what happened is his
Speaker 8: mom had was helping him out financially periodically, not not
Speaker 8: you know, he had kind of run out. He'd kind
Speaker 8: of run that that alley. And uh, you know Jane
Speaker 8: was the breadwinner. She's you know, she's making six figures
Speaker 8: and uh, and so they definitely had enough money to
Speaker 8: survive if Bob was doing his thing with his uh,
Speaker 8: you know, his low rent properties and so on. I
Speaker 8: think he had a couple that were paying pretty well.
Speaker 8: But in general he wasn't pulling his weight in terms
Speaker 8: of finances. But again, he was overly leveraged. If he
Speaker 8: would have cashed in property, probably would suits of money.
Speaker 8: But but yeah, Jane was the breadwinner. She had the
Speaker 8: money and uh and Bob's you know, when Bob would
Speaker 8: talk about you know, you talked to friends. He's talking
Speaker 8: to friends about his divorce, and you know, he said,
Speaker 8: it's just going to be so expensive if I act
Speaker 8: your divorce. What he really meant was, I'm not gonna
Speaker 8: have any more money. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Now let's talk about Bob and his properties. Now, he's
Speaker 7: this guy that seems to give guys, as you talk
Speaker 7: about in the book, a couple of guys he's given
Speaker 7: a break to, which end up pretty interesting. In the story,
Speaker 7: guys have been known to be ex cons. He gives
Speaker 7: him a break, gets them an apartment. An example is
Speaker 7: another guy that needs a break, this Joe Gentz. Tell
Speaker 7: us about Joe gent with a Z at the end
Speaker 7: and tell us what kind of predicament he's in. And
Speaker 7: Bob comes to his aid, tell us about that.
Speaker 8: Well, Joe Gantz is just kind of a roust about
Speaker 8: a guy. He's a you know, how do you say?
Speaker 8: He's just kind of this guy who was it had
Speaker 8: just a kind of a rough life. He's as I
Speaker 8: say in the book, it says he was kind of
Speaker 8: a he didn't have he was low iq. He had
Speaker 8: anger issues. He was not a bad guy. This is
Speaker 8: not a guy who was Everybody said, oh man, he's
Speaker 8: just a yeah, you know, he's a he's a killer.
Speaker 8: He did had some violent tendencies, but they were born
Speaker 8: of frustration. I don't think they were born of aggression.
Speaker 8: He grew up in a working class community. He was
Speaker 8: a big guy, this huge, huge guy, you know, is
Speaker 8: six foot four, maybe even bigger than that. Broad shoulder,
Speaker 8: just huge, and so you know, he became as he
Speaker 8: got out out of school, he became kind of roused about.
Speaker 8: He's kind of a you know, he traveled around. He
Speaker 8: was a you know, he was he worked on a ship.
Speaker 8: You know, he worked on a something called the Overseas
Speaker 8: Philadelphia Shipping Tanker. And he picked up, he picked up.
Speaker 8: He was a union laborer there and I was a
Speaker 8: deck on the deck for about five years and he
Speaker 8: was partying art and so on. He had some sort
Speaker 8: of injury claim and he took took a little bit
Speaker 8: of cash from that. He drifted over to d C
Speaker 8: sister and then he went over then he was He
Speaker 8: ended up back to Michigan and he got married, had
Speaker 8: a kid, had a daughter, and that was a big
Speaker 8: deal to him. He had a daughter and the mother
Speaker 8: they got divorced, he lost the kid and so on.
Speaker 8: And at the time he was he met Bob. He
Speaker 8: was introduced to Bob as a guy who could do
Speaker 8: some work for him, a handyman. Bob needed a handyman.
Speaker 8: Always need a handyman. And at the time, Joe Agains
Speaker 8: was trying to get custody of his daughter, trying to
Speaker 8: take care of his daughter, and he needed the money
Speaker 8: real bad. So that's where he was. He's kind of
Speaker 8: a desperate guy when he met he's kind of a
Speaker 8: desperate guy when he met Bob. He needed a place
Speaker 8: to live. He's been convicted from his apartment and you know,
Speaker 8: he had yeah, I think he had a little disability
Speaker 8: and you know payment, that's about it.
Speaker 7: And you talk about in the book that just for
Speaker 7: the record, which is incredible is between September and January
Speaker 7: was four high undred and seventy phone calls. So they
Speaker 7: were inextectably involved. These guys weren't there.
Speaker 8: They were talking. They were talking a lot, Bob told me.
Speaker 8: And by the way, part of this, a lot of
Speaker 8: this book includes conversations because I talked to Bob the
Speaker 8: Shara quite a bit, right, And that was one other
Speaker 8: thing where we go back to the beginning. He said,
Speaker 8: what major wrete this book is the access to Bob
Speaker 8: the Shera. He and I say this. He's always insisted
Speaker 8: he did not have anything to do with the murder
Speaker 8: of James Er. Even after he's convicted, he said, I
Speaker 8: had nothing to do with this murder. His story has
Speaker 8: stayed the same. The stories stayed the same from the
Speaker 8: time I talked to him initially to the time to
Speaker 8: just recently when he was in court on the stand
Speaker 8: saying he had nothing to do with this murder. But
Speaker 8: Bob talked to me throughout this whole thing. We exchanged
Speaker 8: emails and talked on the phone quite a bit. So
Speaker 8: all this information I get, there's a lot of this
Speaker 8: is just from Bob telling me, telling me these kinds
Speaker 8: of things just about exactly what happened. So after I
Speaker 8: did that, just now went off on that tangent. I
Speaker 8: forget the question, so here we go, but.
Speaker 7: Hear me, it was fascinating. It is fascinating addition to
Speaker 7: the book too, that you have those emails and then
Speaker 7: you said that it became easier to have phone calls,
Speaker 7: and then you have those transcribed and put in the book.
Speaker 7: For the most part too, I don't know for the
Speaker 7: most part, but some really interesting stuff and revelations and
Speaker 7: conversations that are included in this book as well. Let's
Speaker 7: get back to again, I don't know anything really about
Speaker 7: the BDSM lifestyle. And it's not like I'm interested in
Speaker 7: the lurid details or that I'm interested in the seriousness
Speaker 7: of murder and these other things might be interesting, but
Speaker 7: this is important to the story. And also again one
Speaker 7: of these things I didn't know about and I find again,
Speaker 7: you know, hauntingly involved in this is this, and you
Speaker 7: can explain what this is, this breath play, so parts
Speaker 7: of the BDSM lifestyle, which kind of shocking to me,
Speaker 7: This breath play and what's involved in that. And also
Speaker 7: this edition of another character is very important to this story,
Speaker 7: and her name is Lehman. And again another person who
Speaker 7: as a third but was contacted again. This is online,
Speaker 7: so they don't live in the same area, So tell
Speaker 7: us about this Leman person. And also just a couple
Speaker 7: of the things that are characterized by this BDM less
Speaker 7: lifestyle that I don't know seem to be part of
Speaker 7: the story. If we're talking about strangulation.
Speaker 8: Well, vdsm's bondage is really we can go on to
Speaker 8: a period of full fully the four letter acronyms bondage, discipline,
Speaker 8: submission state. As a massachist, it's kind of like as
Speaker 8: a sexual version of Dungeons and Dragons. There's a huge
Speaker 8: element of fans see it on predictability. Supposedly it fulfills
Speaker 8: without harming anyone, which leads to breath play, which is
Speaker 8: choking someone out to the point of unconsciousness and then
Speaker 8: allowing them to come back and uh I was supposed
Speaker 8: to heighten sexual awareness and so on. Oddly, this is
Speaker 8: serial killers engage in this in breath play, take a victim,
Speaker 8: kidnap a victim and choke them to the point of
Speaker 8: of of death and let them come back. It's kind
Speaker 8: of interesting that the connections between breath play between both
Speaker 8: the world of b DSM and in the world of murder.
Speaker 8: So so that's that's what the BDSM thing entails in
Speaker 8: a nutshell. Janet Lehman was a it was a woman
Speaker 8: in Oregon, and he lived in a little town in Bend, Oregon,
Speaker 8: and she was into the lifestyle and on a website.
Speaker 8: And what they had, what Bob Rachel had fantasized about,
Speaker 8: is having a a a three ways essentially a relationship,
Speaker 8: a household for Bob's the master and he serves two
Speaker 8: women and somehow it's this is supposed to be great
Speaker 8: for everyone involved. And so you know, Janet Lehman talked
Speaker 8: with talked with them on the phone, and it was
Speaker 8: agreed that Bob would go out and meet her, and
Speaker 8: so he flew out to Oregon. And I interviewed Janet
Speaker 8: extensively for the for the book, and she said it
Speaker 8: was a nightmare that Bob was was rude, abrasive and
Speaker 8: put everyone off, including her, and they had sex. That
Speaker 8: it was a nightmare and the whole thing she couldn't
Speaker 8: wait to get rid of, given her dog didn't like him.
Speaker 7: Yeah, have visceral reaction, Yeah sure, yeah, Now by the
Speaker 7: time that Lehman is in the picture, though, things have changed.
Speaker 7: And why did she have why was she so smitten
Speaker 7: with him in the first place, and and why specifically
Speaker 7: was she again then afraid of him actually.
Speaker 8: You mean Janet, Yes, yeah, because he was well, he
Speaker 8: was strange. I mean, he was really strange for one thing.
Speaker 8: But I mean, uh, she she wanted to She actually
Speaker 8: after he left, he kept trying to He kept trying
Speaker 8: to get back with her, and he kept there's a
Speaker 8: point where he was almost stalking her, you know, calling
Speaker 8: her all the time and so on, and uh and
Speaker 8: just trying to you know, trying trying to get her,
Speaker 8: I guess, to get it get into this whole whole
Speaker 8: relationship thing. And she was really you know, she was
Speaker 8: really upset by this whole the whole thing because she
Speaker 8: had almost been strangled at the death by this guy,
Speaker 8: and so you know, the triage thing was not going
Speaker 8: to work out, and and so yeah, that was that
Speaker 8: was Jane's take on this whole thing.
Speaker 7: Right now, let's talk about just the events leading up
Speaker 7: to the day in question with Jane Bashera and Joe
Speaker 7: Gentz and tell us all those surrounding events that preclude
Speaker 7: the event, the murderous event itself.
Speaker 8: Well, I mean, when you think about it, the murderer
Speaker 8: really came out, came out of nowhere. Of course, nobody
Speaker 8: really expected it, you know. I mean as they got
Speaker 8: toward the day of that, he was kind of he
Speaker 8: was kind of cracking a little bit. He was his
Speaker 8: obsession with Rachel was in his sexual obedism lifestyle. He
Speaker 8: was so obsessed with all this stuff. He fell behind
Speaker 8: on the country club dues. He you know, he took
Speaker 8: out at one point he had taken like ten thousand
Speaker 8: dollars who wanted to Jane's retirements account retirement accounts without
Speaker 8: asking her. He was watching he was obsessed with internet pornography,
Speaker 8: and you know, so it was it was all this,
Speaker 8: all these things were starting to you know, to kind
Speaker 8: of I don't know, just trying to starting to come
Speaker 8: to a head. At the end of December or early January,
Speaker 8: I believe it was his end of December, he went
Speaker 8: to North Carolina to a wedding with Rachel. Rachel's daughter
Speaker 8: I believe, was getting her son was getting married, and
Speaker 8: Bob Bob went down there with her and just like
Speaker 8: he was the guy, you know in the relationship and.
Speaker 4: And so on.
Speaker 8: So and Rachel was just totally in love with Bob,
Speaker 8: and so they went down there to this this kind
Speaker 8: of thing, and so on and so forth, and everything
Speaker 8: was you know, but but he was also talking to
Speaker 8: you know, he was talking to Joe Gaines obsessively almost
Speaker 8: because they were they were planning this murder. Joe didn't
Speaker 8: want to do it. Joe would tell his friends, he's
Speaker 8: posing what afs even the people that he that he knew,
Speaker 8: And what if somebody asked you to kill somebody for
Speaker 8: this amount of money? And everybody said, well, that's crazy,
Speaker 8: it's crazy talk, you know. And and so as we
Speaker 8: led up to it, you had a frenzied activity as
Speaker 8: far as sell you know, sell records and cell phone
Speaker 8: calls and yeah, so it was really and and you know,
Speaker 8: of course, you know, Jane had no idea. This of
Speaker 8: course had no idea. So this is her husband.
Speaker 7: How was he portraying? How was Bob Scherer portraying the
Speaker 7: need or the necessity to kill his wife? And what
Speaker 7: other kind of intimidation was he other than he was
Speaker 7: in dire straits financially, But what kind of intimidation process
Speaker 7: or and tactics. Did Bob share employ over this dim
Speaker 7: witted sixty seven IQ guy in desperate situation?
Speaker 8: Oh, he was just he was trying to tell him,
Speaker 8: you know these you know that he was trying to
Speaker 8: he was trying to bully him essentially into just saying
Speaker 8: you know and just saying, well, you know, you don't
Speaker 8: know what you know. There were there were kind of
Speaker 8: things like, Joe, let's take this back. Joe Gans had
Speaker 8: always been like this guy who was what do I
Speaker 8: want to say? He was kind of uh uh, he
Speaker 8: liked to take dares. He would do anything to get attention.
Speaker 8: He just wanted wanted people to like him and that
Speaker 8: kind of thing, and so, you know, he was he
Speaker 8: really just didn't want to you know, he would do
Speaker 8: things on a dare, and in this case, he was
Speaker 8: you know, he was kind of I don't know. Bob
Speaker 8: was just kind of really really really pushing him. He
Speaker 8: really said, I really want to do this. I really
Speaker 8: wanted you know, I really want you to do this,
Speaker 8: and he kept he kept pushing him, he said, you know,
Speaker 8: and it turns out that he set him up to
Speaker 8: come you know, set it up to come on over
Speaker 8: to the house. And when Jane would be home and
Speaker 8: Against you know, he was telling me, you want this money,
Speaker 8: I'm gonna pay this money. You know, he had initially
Speaker 8: had said it was going to be six thousand, and
Speaker 8: then it got down to two thousand. Yeah, but but
Speaker 8: Gainst really needed to really really needed the money.
Speaker 7: The price that we mentioned in the opening was around
Speaker 7: two thousand dollars, so close to two thousand dollars, and
Speaker 7: they used Cadillac correct an altar Cadillac right.
Speaker 8: At one point he had talked about six thousand. Against him,
Speaker 8: I telling people he was going to ye know, he's
Speaker 8: going to come into six thousand dollars in a car,
Speaker 8: and you know who knows he had it, He had
Speaker 8: it confused. But but no, no matter what, as he said.
Speaker 8: Against Labor later said he that the shriff told me
Speaker 8: he said, I want you to knock my wife out.
Speaker 8: I wanted to kill her, make it look like an accident.
Speaker 8: And then you know, the share started coming by against
Speaker 8: the apartment. He said, why haven't you taken care of it?
Speaker 8: You know, Bob, you know it might not be for me.
Speaker 8: He said, I need you to take care of it,
Speaker 8: and yeah, finally did it.
Speaker 7: He played upon that Joe Ginst was interested in maintaining
Speaker 7: his relationship with his foster daughter, and so that was
Speaker 7: initial in that he saw that insecurity. Wasn't it that
Speaker 7: he knew he needed money for that noble effort?
Speaker 8: Yeah, he knew that. He was. Yeah, he was, you know,
Speaker 8: dangling that in front of him. He really, you know.
Speaker 8: But at the same time, the share was more, I guess,
Speaker 8: a little gruffer than that. He just said, I need
Speaker 8: you to do this. You got to do this.
Speaker 5: Wait, the Lucky landslots. You can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 6: This is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and
Speaker 6: the weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up
Speaker 6: here a while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that.
Speaker 6: It's just these cash prizes add up quick. So I
Speaker 6: suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right,
Speaker 6: and start getting lucky.
Speaker 5: Play for free at Lucky landslipes dot com. Are you
Speaker 5: feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law
Speaker 5: eighteen plus from and conditions apply. See website for details.
Speaker 2: Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight
Speaker 2: the other day playing one of my favorite social spin
Speaker 2: slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over the
Speaker 2: person sitting next to me, and you know what they
Speaker 2: were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, I
Speaker 2: think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's
Speaker 2: home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play
Speaker 2: for free anytime anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So
Speaker 2: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to claim
Speaker 2: you're free. Welcome bonut. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com. And
Speaker 2: lived at Chumba Lane.
Speaker 3: Nous necessary DL where everybody lost in terms conditions eighteen plus,
Speaker 3: you know, that was really where he was.
Speaker 7: There was that and he talked about the invite to
Speaker 7: the house where Jane was there, and then how they
Speaker 7: maneuvered her into the garadge or how it happened that
Speaker 7: she was in the garage and what was said because obviously,
Speaker 7: like you say, Bob has maintained his innocence, so it
Speaker 7: really is obviously there's only one witness. And what did
Speaker 7: he say was said to him, tell us take us
Speaker 7: to that murder scene itself.
Speaker 8: Well they got as it comes down, and this is
Speaker 8: according to Joe Gins and this is his you know,
Speaker 8: it was the share had told Against that he needs
Speaker 8: some help movies and boxes at the house. It's around
Speaker 8: six thirty and and Gainst got there and Jane was home,
Speaker 8: and Bob told him there were some boxes in the garage,
Speaker 8: and they were in the garage talking and Jane came
Speaker 8: out to the garage and there's stuff everywhere. If you
Speaker 8: see a picture of the garage, it's a champagned and
Speaker 8: she was angry with Bob. Bob had done, you know,
Speaker 8: he had crap everywhere at some golf clubs and boxes,
Speaker 8: and Bob supporting it to Gainst pulled a gun and
Speaker 8: held it on Against and said you got to do
Speaker 8: this now, you got to do this now.
Speaker 5: And and that was it.
Speaker 8: And Against dropped her with a punch and crushed her throat.
Speaker 7: With his work boot. Yeah a couple of times. Yeah,
Speaker 7: then what they do.
Speaker 8: Put her in the back of a Mercedes suv. Jamed
Speaker 8: her in there, and Against drove it to this part
Speaker 8: of Detroit, really bad part of de Troit, really bad
Speaker 8: part of de Troit, because I did door knocks over
Speaker 8: there just to find out if there's anybody around the
Speaker 8: saw anything or do anything, talk to anybody. And it
Speaker 8: was bad Pstroit and they just dumped the car there.
Speaker 8: It was. It was dumping. I mean really, this is
Speaker 8: a block where you know, maybe you'll have three boarded
Speaker 8: up houses and then one that's actually working, and then
Speaker 8: you'll have three more boarded up and the one that's working,
Speaker 8: and uh, and it's just totally trashed. I mean this alley.
Speaker 8: In fact, when the alley where he parked, it was
Speaker 8: right off the street. You could see it, which is
Speaker 8: why the tow truck driver which opens the scene. I
Speaker 8: talked to the guy who found the car. It's just
Speaker 8: like this is, you know, just sitting there is you know,
Speaker 8: you find dumped cars all the time. You don't find
Speaker 8: dump cities all the time. And and so he saw that,
Speaker 8: you know, I saw the car and he knew something
Speaker 8: something was going on, and uh, they just let it
Speaker 8: run and they just took off and then against against
Speaker 8: park it took off start walking they had and then
Speaker 8: the thing was against was walking. He had you worked
Speaker 8: to with Donald's and so on. They had cameras, you know,
Speaker 8: they followed the video cameras they you know, they'd see
Speaker 8: him going lined up perfectly with the times.
Speaker 7: Now the police know that this is a crime scene
Speaker 7: and luckily nobody disturbs it too much. But we won't
Speaker 7: get into too much because it just seems to be
Speaker 7: a recurrent theme a lot of times. Is that not
Speaker 7: exemplary evidence gathering was employed by the police department. You
Speaker 7: talk about the newbie, sort of rookie gross Point Park Police,
Speaker 7: small force, zero experience, and then Detroit Police's police Department's involvement.
Speaker 7: Just tell us a little bit about maybe what was
Speaker 7: not really handled so well in terms of you talk
Speaker 7: about the clothing.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, Well what you've done is what you had.
Speaker 8: The body was dropped in a jurisdiction Detroit. It's going
Speaker 8: to be handled by the Detroit Police Department, which is
Speaker 8: a pretty good department. I mean, these people handle crimes
Speaker 8: all the time, and they don't there that they're they're
Speaker 8: they have the same problem as any big bureaucracy does
Speaker 8: in Detroit. That's manifested times ten because it's Detroit. But
Speaker 8: they do they can do some crime, they do some crime,
Speaker 8: good crime investigation. But when it was determined that Jane
Speaker 8: was murdered elsewhere and it was traced back to gross
Speaker 8: Point Park, that becomes the department that handles the murder
Speaker 8: The problem is these guys were terrible to this. They
Speaker 8: didn't have any experience in it, and not only that,
Speaker 8: but they were just they were just really really bad
Speaker 8: at it. And not only that, but I guess the
Speaker 8: worst part was they were really bad at it. They
Speaker 8: hadn't had a murder there since jeez, what was that
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety two, And not only were they bad at it,
Speaker 8: but they didn't even take direction very well. Because in
Speaker 8: a case like this, the county is Wayne County, and
Speaker 8: the County prosecutors office has jurisdation they're going to prosecute
Speaker 8: if in the eventuality of the murders found and so
Speaker 8: on and so forth. But they couldn't even take direction
Speaker 8: from the Wayne County prosecutors off the same and you
Speaker 8: need to do this, you need to do that. They
Speaker 8: just shined all this stuff. They just they wouldn't even
Speaker 8: do it. They wouldn't even do some interviews. In fact,
Speaker 8: they were They didn't even get Jane's clothes. They failed
Speaker 8: to get to retrieve the clothes from the funeral home
Speaker 8: and that that Jane was wearing when she was murdered
Speaker 8: and she was, you know, and they lost those. They
Speaker 8: didn't get the there was a security camera in the
Speaker 8: alley where Bob used as his alibi, saying I was
Speaker 8: in this alley cleaning up when this murder happened. They
Speaker 8: could never have been part of this. They didn't, you know,
Speaker 8: they never even got the video to, you know, to
Speaker 8: see what went on in that alley and see if
Speaker 8: they could even prove that Bob's theory was correct. They
Speaker 8: never even got the video in time. It was taped
Speaker 8: over by the time they went and think to get that,
Speaker 8: so they made all kinds of mistakes. And again they
Speaker 8: were kind of arrogant about it too. So you know,
Speaker 8: you got stupidity combined with arrogance. You got a room. Bud.
Speaker 7: Now, tell us about how the police do proceed and
Speaker 7: how do they come to find out here was it?
Speaker 8: Tips?
Speaker 7: How did they find out to hear a little bit
Speaker 7: more about you know, despite his going to church and
Speaker 7: the Rotary club president that there was a much different
Speaker 7: side to Bob Bashira.
Speaker 8: Well this is even better against and goes and turns
Speaker 8: himself in about six weeks later. Five weeks later, he
Speaker 8: turns himself in, tries to turn himself in at the
Speaker 8: growth point of police and they they they don't they
Speaker 8: don't keep it. This guy's crazy, so and so and
Speaker 8: so later you know, and so. But essentially they everybody reconsiders,
Speaker 8: they said, what are you guys not? Just you know,
Speaker 8: they look checked it out, followed it up. They rest
Speaker 8: him a little while later against the uh the schrier
Speaker 8: maybe do it tells the whole story, and but he
Speaker 8: confesses that I did it, you know, but Bob Chera
Speaker 8: set me up to do this and and so on,
Speaker 8: and so it's pretty easy then. But before anything can happen,
Speaker 8: Bob Basher decides because Joe's confessed, he's in jail already
Speaker 8: waiting sentencing, Bob decides that he probably should put out
Speaker 8: a hit on Joe GenZ because Joe YenS is you know, well,
Speaker 8: Bob's reasoning is, this is the guy that killed my wife.
Speaker 8: Everybody else's reasoning is Joe Gens is going to spill
Speaker 8: the beans on Bob. So Bob decides he better set
Speaker 8: up a hit on me, jail house hit. And Bob
Speaker 8: goes to a local used appliance salesman, which I guess
Speaker 8: is where everybody goes when you're going to set up
Speaker 8: a hit jaill house hit. And a local appliance salesman says, sure,
Speaker 8: I can help you, then goes to the FBI where's
Speaker 8: a wire at Boom Bob is arrested for soliciting murder. Jogins.
Speaker 7: Now, the what's interesting is that we skipped through a
Speaker 7: lot of great juicy stuff in there as well, because
Speaker 7: you talk about the used used appliance guy, but really
Speaker 7: it's sort of a don wanna be if I can
Speaker 7: use that phrase, you know, he's a don wanna be
Speaker 7: And but what as you again? I like the sarcastic
Speaker 7: tone that you have in there, because his story's kind
Speaker 7: of ridiculous in some ways. It's nobody would write fictional
Speaker 7: stuff that's this humorous. He's running right away, this don
Speaker 7: wanna bee guy to the FBI. And it's not just
Speaker 7: altruistic intentions either.
Speaker 8: Is it. No? No, well, Steve, the guy's name is
Speaker 8: Steve Thibodeau. And yeah he was, he was. It's just
Speaker 8: an interesting it's just a character. He's uh, you know it.
Speaker 8: You know. The odd part about it is what do
Speaker 8: they say? How is he gonna? You know, they're talking
Speaker 8: about how is he gonna murder? And this is all
Speaker 8: you know, hurt in court? How's he gonna kill Joe GAINSTI, well,
Speaker 8: I'll tell you what we could poison in the food
Speaker 8: glass and the salt shaker. You know, this kind of thing.
Speaker 8: A grenade launcher, who knows and somehow he just he just,
Speaker 8: you know, somehow Bob Share believes this, you know. So,
Speaker 8: and then not only that, but uh and Bob asked
Speaker 8: a couple other people and then by you know, Bob,
Speaker 8: you know, he was just asking around, you know, how
Speaker 8: do you how do you do this? And that kind
Speaker 8: of thing. But the Thibodeau we obviously Thibodeau U Thibodeau
Speaker 8: is not the guy for the to set up the
Speaker 8: murder because he he took the Yeah, he went right
Speaker 8: to the FBI.
Speaker 7: Now he has to get something really worthwhile. And obviously
Speaker 7: the police know the kind of content they need to
Speaker 7: be able to put this guy away. Uh, were serious
Speaker 7: enough about this to go give him the two thousand
Speaker 7: dollars down payment on the twenty thousand dollars. And like
Speaker 7: you say, Thibodeau has to really elicit a worthwhile confession.
Speaker 7: So tell us about that exchange that he tries to
Speaker 7: get and he does get.
Speaker 8: Between the two, well, let me try to think about
Speaker 8: this on this goo he said he was he was
Speaker 8: what was he doing? He was complaining and he was
Speaker 8: talking about you know, they had all these conversations where
Speaker 8: they're just talking about, you know, the Wayne County Prosecutor's
Speaker 8: office was coming by, and and yes, he it was
Speaker 8: a twenty thousand dollars price tag with the cher gave
Speaker 8: him a few thousand dollars down. If the job didn't
Speaker 8: get done, the sherer would get his money back. This
Speaker 8: is all on tape, so you know, and so but
Speaker 8: also I will say this on the tape. Also, a
Speaker 8: share is continually saying he'd never hired Joe to kill
Speaker 8: his wife. And he keeps telling he said this on
Speaker 8: the tape. That was really kind of you know, again,
Speaker 8: there's some weird consistency there because he used to insist
Speaker 8: that this never never happened. But finally about killing killing Joe,
Speaker 8: he finally says, okay, let's do this, the sooner the better,
Speaker 8: and h and pretty much you know, and they talk
Speaker 8: about the money, you know, and Monday I'll be there
Speaker 8: and and so you know, essentially he you know, he
Speaker 8: he got you know, gave him the money. Had a
Speaker 8: bogus invoice applying its two thousand dollars down payment to
Speaker 8: a twenty thousand dollars with him. Yeah, with the worth
Speaker 8: of appliances, and that was it. He was ready to go.
Speaker 7: What's also laughable, almost fictional sopranos is is that Bob
Speaker 7: Ashira is a suspicious creature and figures his buddy might
Speaker 7: be wired. So he's patting him down old old school
Speaker 7: style the way, looking for wires that would appear if
Speaker 7: you were wired twenty years before. So very comical.
Speaker 8: Actually down, yeah, he said, Bob says to him. He says, well,
Speaker 8: if you're wearing a wire, kill me now. And tibeteau' pasilion.
Speaker 8: We don't go aroun wearing wires. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 8: where I mean, it's true. It's like this is a
Speaker 8: dialogue and it is. It's both like they both will
Speaker 8: watch way too much, way too much sopranos.
Speaker 7: Yeah, very funny. So now so now how do police
Speaker 7: proceed with this? Again we talked about not the best
Speaker 7: sort of process to be able to prosecute these people.
Speaker 7: Of course, Joe Gantz gives them the huge gift and
Speaker 7: again it's almost comical, and we skipped over that a
Speaker 7: little bit too because when he does go into the
Speaker 7: police station, the guy told him, listen, there's no detective
Speaker 7: on today right now, why don't you come back around
Speaker 7: on eight, which is you can't write that stuff. It's
Speaker 7: pretty funny. And then even when he came back, they
Speaker 7: tried to talk him out of giving a statement. And
Speaker 7: it wasn't just Joe Gainst, it was this very credible
Speaker 7: guy that went with him, trying to try to implore
Speaker 7: the police that hey, listen, you don't understand see this
Speaker 7: case that's huge. This guy's got this is a confession.
Speaker 7: So they're very reluctant to even respond to that, which
Speaker 7: is again very comical.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it is, it is. It's strange. It is his friend.
Speaker 8: You know, he had trusted this guy and against kept
Speaker 8: telling him, you know, he was just he's in trouble
Speaker 8: and and so on, and finally yeah, this guy, uh,
Speaker 8: Steve Vergona went in with him and uh and said
Speaker 8: you got you know this guy did this. He's trying
Speaker 8: to and Vigona is a little better spoken, right and so,
Speaker 8: and he's known he's known against for for a long time.
Speaker 8: But he took him in the police department itself. And
Speaker 8: now they are right Joe. He's a credible guy.
Speaker 7: They offer Joe Gainst. Again, it's incredible to me coming
Speaker 7: from Canada when I hear these American deals. It's like,
Speaker 7: sixteen to twenty eight years is the deal if he
Speaker 7: testifies against him, and first they have to see if
Speaker 7: he's fit to stand trial, which he clears that hurdle. Now,
Speaker 7: Joe Gens is a pretty sympathetic character and a lot
Speaker 7: of people have helped them out over the years because
Speaker 7: they think he's a pretty likable guy. The police are
Speaker 7: pretty sympathetic and believe they got a pretty good witness.
Speaker 7: That's not the only witness they have. But they're really
Speaker 7: counting on Joe Gainst to a great degree, aren't they.
Speaker 8: With this, He's going to be the key witness, and
Speaker 8: you know, to say anything other They gave him a
Speaker 8: deal second degree murder. This was clearly first degree. I mean,
Speaker 8: this is agreed upon beef for murder. This is clearly
Speaker 8: a first degree murder charge. And they let him play
Speaker 8: down in a deal. They gave him second degree murdered
Speaker 8: and seventeen to twenty eight And but there was the
Speaker 8: agreement that Joe against would testify as to everything he
Speaker 8: had told the cops and the trial came around and
Speaker 8: Joe against said that I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 8: The reason is a bunch of people in the jailhouse
Speaker 8: got into his head and said, you should be getting
Speaker 8: a better deal than this. You know. It's not that
Speaker 8: I don't know. You know, I'm pretty sure prisons aren't
Speaker 8: filled with you know, with legal geniuses, but some of
Speaker 8: them are not bad, you know. But clearly he had
Speaker 8: some bad advice and he was going to be spending
Speaker 8: you know, seventeen to twenty eight years there. He wanted out.
Speaker 8: And Joe was not getting along in prison at all either.
Speaker 8: He's having a hard time. He had a lot of
Speaker 8: a lot of write ups, but so essentially he was
Speaker 8: out in terms of the identifying made the prosecution shob
Speaker 8: very difficult, and it made for a long trial and
Speaker 8: made for a lengthy group of witnesses because you had
Speaker 8: to make up from the lack of gains.
Speaker 7: He also had a very capable attorney that came on board,
Speaker 7: not read at the beginning, but eventually David Griham, if
Speaker 7: that's the way he pronounce his name, came on board
Speaker 7: and he did his best to do the you know,
Speaker 7: the pre trial publicity and make sure that he tried
Speaker 7: to do damage control for his client's name. And what
Speaker 7: was another interesting part of your book is how much
Speaker 7: the tactic of the police and the prosecution together to
Speaker 7: leak information purposely, quickly and to bolster their prosecution in
Speaker 7: depicting Bob Bascher as this deviant and the lifestyle and
Speaker 7: playing it up. And then you also talk about how
Speaker 7: reviled Bashira becomes in even places that he is a
Speaker 7: landlord for. So talk a little bit about that police.
Speaker 8: Well, first of all, the Detroit the prosecution, Wayne County,
Speaker 8: and the Detroit Police Department did a great job of
Speaker 8: demonizing Bob the share through his year, as you say,
Speaker 8: through leaks and and so on. In the book, I
Speaker 8: chronicle a lot of these leaks and how they placed
Speaker 8: these at good times, and they were you know, they
Speaker 8: at the same time they were taking all of Bob's resources,
Speaker 8: every resource they could get, you know, he had. And
Speaker 8: of course none of Jane's money could go to him.
Speaker 8: She had something like an eight hundred thousand dollars distribution
Speaker 8: in one of her for own k's and he couldn't
Speaker 8: get access to that. They took the house and took
Speaker 8: the proceeds from the house. And then so he had
Speaker 8: really no resources. And and so they did a great
Speaker 8: job of demonizing as demonizing the share. So the public
Speaker 8: silement was clearly against him no matter what. And and
Speaker 8: and yes Bob got a well he could pay for
Speaker 8: a lawn. He got a very very good defense learn
Speaker 8: named David Grimm. Uh this is at the outset of
Speaker 8: the case. And this is before before Besi was arrested
Speaker 8: for solicitation of murder and uh. Then finally Grim maybe
Speaker 8: ran out of money. I think the Grim backed off
Speaker 8: the case. You might have been fired by the by
Speaker 8: the family. I can't remember now, but but yeah, so
Speaker 8: it was it was a masterful job of the cops
Speaker 8: in terms of how they approached the prosecution and made
Speaker 8: sure that he had very little resources, because a wealthy
Speaker 8: defendant is going to give you a lot of problems.
Speaker 8: Now with.
Speaker 7: Bob Ashera. And we we talked about Joe Gainst, and
Speaker 7: that falls through tell us about Bob a Shira after
Speaker 7: Dave Griham and the solicitation. Again, what was interesting is
Speaker 7: that both of these people have spoken to so many people.
Speaker 7: Joe Gainst told people before he ever did anything that
Speaker 7: he was going to get a couple of thousand dollars
Speaker 7: in a Cadillac. He told a woman, and Bob A
Speaker 7: Shira went and asked a bunch of people or numerous
Speaker 7: people about certain things involving this and made certain statements.
Speaker 7: So how do police proceed to try to deal with
Speaker 7: Bob Shira in this case in this trust.
Speaker 8: Or What they did was they rounded up a bunch
Speaker 8: of people that talked to you know, the one the
Speaker 8: one guy where he talked about how he you know
Speaker 8: this guy, you know they he said, Bob told him
Speaker 8: right in the car that that essentially, you know that
Speaker 8: he did it. He was he murdered, you know that
Speaker 8: that he edited him and and so it was. And
Speaker 8: then they got his cellmate who asked he was talking
Speaker 8: about and he's talking about you know, Bob again was
Speaker 8: talking you know these about the BDSM and so on
Speaker 8: and so forth, and he just talked about, yeah, he
Speaker 8: was just they were What they did was they rounded
Speaker 8: up everybody that Bob had talked to about the case.
Speaker 8: And in some cases he said I had put out
Speaker 8: a hit on my wife, I had my wife killed.
Speaker 8: Other people said he had talked before this whole thing
Speaker 8: went down about a divorce. I was way too expensive
Speaker 8: to get a divorce, and how unhappy he was, and
Speaker 8: so on and so forth. They rounded everybody out and
Speaker 8: threw it in the courtroom. They all got up on
Speaker 8: the stand and testify, and it worked. Convinced a jury
Speaker 8: and the evidence. I gotta say I was there.
Speaker 7: It was.
Speaker 8: It was very, very convincing.
Speaker 7: What was Bob a Chera's demeanor and court and his behavior?
Speaker 7: If any.
Speaker 8: Who he was, he was just Bob the riff. He was.
Speaker 8: You know, he had a couple of medical problems understandably
Speaker 8: during trial and stress he was he was animated. He'd
Speaker 8: be doing things like he'd it's one. At one point,
Speaker 8: I think that was a preliminary exam, he's like touching,
Speaker 8: he's touching his heart and Rachel had had to get
Speaker 8: up on the stand and testify and Bob is touching
Speaker 8: his heart and who knows what that means.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 8: But the judge says, hey, you know, the judge is
Speaker 8: quit quit doing that. And Bob says, well, I have
Speaker 8: a rational chess. You know. It's just he's just weird.
Speaker 8: And on another point to have some sort of eye
Speaker 8: surgery or something happened to his eyes. He comes into
Speaker 8: the courtroom with these big, huge glasses, and he's just
Speaker 8: a strange character. He was. He was, he was very
Speaker 8: the very you know, of course, this is like the
Speaker 8: you know, he's on trial for his life, and so
Speaker 8: anybody's going to be a little strange in those circumstances.
Speaker 8: But to me, he was Bob the Cherry was almost
Speaker 8: like the guy that you would the guy they were
Speaker 8: talking about on the stand. He was a strange, strange guy.
Speaker 7: Now, initially, his mother was bank rolling lawyers for him,
Speaker 7: as if if I understand the book correctly, and was
Speaker 7: supportive of her son, and so was his daughter Jessica.
Speaker 7: He didn't talk too much about the son as much.
Speaker 7: But when did that change and why that.
Speaker 8: Support Well, it wasn't It just wasn't going, you know,
Speaker 8: it was. I willing to say this, I'm trying to
Speaker 8: think of how to put this. There was a gun,
Speaker 8: and Bob had always say, and this is a big deal,
Speaker 8: there was a gun that Bob had. Bob Playby never
Speaker 8: had a gun. And this is kind of convoluting. I'll
Speaker 8: make it as simple as possible. But a gun was found.
Speaker 8: Bob had somehow put a gun in a safe deposit box.
Speaker 8: The gun was found, and that changed the whole thing
Speaker 8: for the family. Really, when they found this gun from
Speaker 8: the safe deposit box, nobody knew where it came from.
Speaker 8: They wasn't theirs, And I got the impression and that
Speaker 8: I think they thought they at that point they kind
Speaker 8: of said, you know, well he might have done something bad,
Speaker 8: you know, that was I think that was the main thing.
Speaker 8: And they found that when they found that gun. It
Speaker 8: was just you know, he had told Bob had told
Speaker 8: reporters he said the only gun he had was a
Speaker 8: baby gun, and and they and that was that. And uh,
Speaker 8: I think that was about the time that the money
Speaker 8: ran out. Bob was now going to be back on
Speaker 8: his own, because that's when he started getting court appointed.
Speaker 8: What was the.
Speaker 7: Exchange and the testimony of Rachel liked and I'm sure
Speaker 7: you looked over at at Bob to see the reaction.
Speaker 7: But what wasn't a dynamic like tell us about that?
Speaker 8: It was? It was there was nothing to it. Rachel
Speaker 8: did in some ways, I'll say, Rachel did m I
Speaker 8: want to say he Uh, they didn't make they made
Speaker 8: really very little contact. I spoke about him patting his heart.
Speaker 8: That was when Rachel was on the stand. And but
Speaker 8: but no, but there was there was really nothing. Yeah,
Speaker 8: there was there was no contact Bob. Even Bob I
Speaker 8: said to me something like, I forget what it was.
Speaker 8: This is during to in Wayne time, you have a
Speaker 8: preliminary exam before you go before judge orders at the
Speaker 8: trial where you have a prayer, witnesses testifying against and
Speaker 8: the judge decides that it's got enough a merit to
Speaker 8: go to trial. Well, during the preliminary exam, Rachel came
Speaker 8: in and testified, and I talked to Bob later on
Speaker 8: he said, oh, yeah, you know, Jesus too bad. Rachel's
Speaker 8: kind to put on weight and I feel bad for stuff.
Speaker 8: I thought, well, that has nothing to say, you know,
Speaker 8: why do you say that kind of stuff. But that's
Speaker 8: when he was patting his heart, I think, and he said,
Speaker 8: oh I have a rash. But no, Rachel did a
Speaker 8: great job. I never looked at Bob at all, only
Speaker 8: do identify him.
Speaker 7: Your correspondence is very interesting in this book, and you've
Speaker 7: included it. And you as who stated previously that he denied, denied, denied,
Speaker 7: So what did you get what Pearl of Wisdom did
Speaker 7: you get that you didn't know through all this research
Speaker 7: and everything that you sat through. In terms of evidence,
Speaker 7: what did you glean from it? What did you get
Speaker 7: from it.
Speaker 8: From the whole the whole case, the overall take away
Speaker 8: from the.
Speaker 7: Case, well, not from the interview with him, specifically.
Speaker 8: From the interviews with him. Okay, again, I think I'm
Speaker 8: still struck. I think the one thing that always strikes
Speaker 8: me is consistency, because since thecy it's such an evasive thing.
Speaker 8: It's always, you know, especially in a crime, you're telling
Speaker 8: the same story over and over. I don't know anybody
Speaker 8: could could do that. I don't know how you do that.
Speaker 8: But I still am kind of struck how he just
Speaker 8: has the same story every time. This is what happened
Speaker 8: is I had nothing to do with this. At the
Speaker 8: same time, the evidence is overwhelming, the lies are profound,
Speaker 8: the lies that he tells. It found that he's just
Speaker 8: like it seems like he's made to lie about the house.
Speaker 8: He's got a weird excuse about everything. You know. I'll
Speaker 8: tell you something funny. When I first started doing this book,
Speaker 8: I talked to a guy I kind of know perfectly,
Speaker 8: and then the Detroit music community and he had told
Speaker 8: me he was a guy who was the manager of
Speaker 8: the Hard Luck Lounge, which is a bar that was
Speaker 8: in a property that Bob won't and he said that
Speaker 8: one time he met Bob at a bachelor party and
Speaker 8: Bob went into the men's room at the strip joint
Speaker 8: and pulls up some cocaine and asks the guy if
Speaker 8: he wants to do a line, and the guy says no, no, no,
Speaker 8: And then he share was a weird character at that
Speaker 8: And then we get into this further into this case,
Speaker 8: and I think, oh, that's weird. Into the guy's the
Speaker 8: son of a judge. He's like the suburban you know,
Speaker 8: it's kind of Gato father too. He's you know, he's
Speaker 8: a really straight guy. Then we hear in testimony that
Speaker 8: Bob is buying like huge amounts of cocaine, and I
Speaker 8: thought this, you know, and I one day I said
Speaker 8: to Bob, I said, Bob, did you buy that cocaine?
Speaker 8: He said, I never bought any cocaine. You know, it
Speaker 8: wouldn't have been the guy on the stands that he
Speaker 8: bought cocaine. Throng. It was going way back to when
Speaker 8: I talked to this initial witness, who by the way
Speaker 8: never testified that he told me that, and it struck me.
Speaker 8: It's so odd, you know. And then that that just
Speaker 8: to me in my head, I said, man, Bob the
Speaker 8: er it just keeps lying, you know. And so it's
Speaker 8: very confusing. You've got a guy telling the same story
Speaker 8: over and over and over and over, and yet you
Speaker 8: watch you can catch him in a lie, just you know,
Speaker 8: slit sing because a very mixed bag.
Speaker 7: Well it wasn't a pretty simple lie though, because I
Speaker 7: mean he trotted it out to as you talk about
Speaker 7: in the when the guy was wired, uh to Bedeaux
Speaker 7: or what it was that he had him wired, and
Speaker 7: so he was he had him on tapes saying over
Speaker 7: and over again like he was trying to trot it
Speaker 7: out in terms of oh I didn't do this. This
Speaker 7: guy misrepresented. I don't know why he did this. He's
Speaker 7: a crazy guy. He's a loose cannon. I mean, you know,
Speaker 7: it wasn't a version of what actually happened. It wasn't
Speaker 7: anything like that. It was somehow on his own. This
Speaker 7: guy took something very innocent, completely wrong and then went
Speaker 7: and on his very own did something crazy. Isn't that
Speaker 7: how he sort of represented it?
Speaker 8: On tape sort of yeah, yeah he did. Although what
Speaker 8: I got out of that was he, yeah, you're right
Speaker 8: and to me, And again I look at it and
Speaker 8: I think, well, he you know, the main thing is
Speaker 8: he's just he just continues to say, you know, if
Speaker 8: he knew how he said something like, hey, if I
Speaker 8: knew how crazy he was, I never would have gout
Speaker 8: involved with him things like that. But that makes sense.
Speaker 8: And again, what what Basher told me at one point
Speaker 8: is he said, well, after all, I mean, who blames
Speaker 8: me for trying to have trying to put a hit
Speaker 8: out on the guy who killed my wife? You know
Speaker 8: a lot of people are you know, OK, that's fine.
Speaker 8: And I never said in judgment. I always would say,
Speaker 8: you know, I'd always say, uh huh, you know that
Speaker 8: kind of thing I wanted.
Speaker 7: Isn't it part you mentioned in the story too that
Speaker 7: a woman gives uh I think Rachel, I believe from
Speaker 7: correct a book called The Sociopath next Door trying to
Speaker 7: explain Bob Ashira and his behavior, And isn't as part
Speaker 7: of this narcissistic thing that you know, this this importance
Speaker 7: that Bob has. Of course, someone killed his wife, so
Speaker 7: of course he wanted to avenge his wife's death now
Speaker 7: to kill this guy. And so it's always about, of
Speaker 7: course them. It's a self centered importance of these people, always.
Speaker 8: Always. In fact, the prosecutors Office handed out that book
Speaker 8: Sociopath next door to the family, the victim family, Jane's family,
Speaker 8: and and and you know everybody that was They didn't hind.
Speaker 8: I don't believe they gave it to Rachel because I
Speaker 8: care for Rachel. But but yeah, it is. It always
Speaker 8: comes back to being about them. And I don't have
Speaker 8: much experience with sociopaths, so I don't really know. But yeah,
Speaker 8: he fits the You read that book and you realize
Speaker 8: that he fits it to a t. It's self absorbed.
Speaker 8: And there's also something to this and the consistent consistency.
Speaker 8: He actually probably believes everything he says. You know, he
Speaker 8: could very I mean, that's why you have that consistency.
Speaker 8: He told himself the story, and associopath can just continue
Speaker 8: to convince himself of that this is actually the truth.
Speaker 8: I did not do that, I did not have anything
Speaker 8: to do with it.
Speaker 7: That he did fail though.
Speaker 8: That's the yes, that's the that is of course again
Speaker 8: that polygraph. You know, I don't know polygraphs can be beat.
Speaker 8: They can be they can get false positives. I don't
Speaker 8: put much stock in those, but yes, he did fail one.
Speaker 8: And and you know it was also weird. You know,
Speaker 8: you see the footage of him in the in the
Speaker 8: interviews after his wife was killed, and he's handling it
Speaker 8: very strangely. You know, he talked about how she smoked
Speaker 8: pot and so on, and I think he had surmised
Speaker 8: as some some some I don't know that that was connected,
Speaker 8: as she had come in contact with shady characters, you know,
Speaker 8: buy him lead or something like that. But yeah, it
Speaker 8: was all very odd. But his demeanor in those those
Speaker 8: those interviews and initially were very strange. It's he's a
Speaker 8: little disconnected.
Speaker 7: It's it's amazing too, with the access that you have
Speaker 7: with Rachel and Lehman in that the story they told
Speaker 7: and other people as well, that this story was so
Speaker 7: big that it was on the news, it was dominating
Speaker 7: the news, and that Rachel had this unfortunate experience of
Speaker 7: sitting there and watching this person that she was planning
Speaker 7: to move into a house shortly, that was enthralled.
Speaker 8: With the man.
Speaker 7: As you mentioned, I thought this guy was the cat's
Speaker 7: pajamas there. I thought it was a great guy. And
Speaker 7: now hearing that, thinking that he was divorced and that
Speaker 7: they were completely split, now hearing about oh, no, was
Speaker 7: my wife and I was happily married, and so it
Speaker 7: just crushed her. And so she had a completely different
Speaker 7: idea about who this man was and the kind of
Speaker 7: lies that he was telling her. And so it's a
Speaker 7: very interesting go ahead.
Speaker 8: Yeah she was. I don't know that other people saw
Speaker 8: her as a sympathetic character. I did because I thought
Speaker 8: she was completely taken. I mean, and again I can't
Speaker 8: I think that didn't like her. That that BDSM thing
Speaker 8: where people I really turned people off for some reason.
Speaker 8: I don't understand. It's just you know. But but yeah,
Speaker 8: she was. I mean, she was a real person and
Speaker 8: she had these real feelings and uh and she was
Speaker 8: taken for a ride and she didn't she was she
Speaker 8: I don't believe she ever really knew. I think again,
Speaker 8: he was misrepresenting the whole personal situation to her. There
Speaker 8: was divorced, where on the way to divorce, blah blah blah,
Speaker 8: And she believed him because she wanted to believe him.
Speaker 7: So has he exhausted all his appeals. I mean, that
Speaker 7: would be a reason to keep consistent with his story
Speaker 7: as well.
Speaker 8: Yeah, told us a bit about that these petitioned. He
Speaker 8: you know, he petitioned the court. You're generally, you're your
Speaker 8: first appeal is the ineffective counsel. And Bob's fairly smart guy,
Speaker 8: so he's going to know how what buttons to push
Speaker 8: and say, you know, I had an ineffective counsel and
Speaker 8: and he you know, he said he didn't. They didn't
Speaker 8: bring in certain things that he wanted brought in, and
Speaker 8: there was a change of venue, which is very rare,
Speaker 8: and uh, and so on all the usual, all the
Speaker 8: usual first appeals, all the usual round of post conviction reliefs.
Speaker 8: So no, he's just beginning and the court is considering
Speaker 8: the court in this case would have to reverse itself essentially,
Speaker 8: and that's not going to happen. So he'll move up
Speaker 8: the ladder and forget. There's probably three appeals levels that
Speaker 8: they'll have on PCR and post conviction relief and and
Speaker 8: so it was an interesting one. This was interesting because
Speaker 8: he actually took the stand in his in his you know,
Speaker 8: plea for post conviction relief and uh, and talked a
Speaker 8: lot about the case and again the consistency. And it
Speaker 8: was also unusual because one of his his defense is
Speaker 8: because both of his defense lawyers took the stand, but
Speaker 8: he didn't give him effective couse. So you know, the
Speaker 8: circus continued, Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 7: It's a you know, I just wanted to add one
Speaker 7: other thing. That again, it is very vivid in movie esque.
Speaker 7: When Steve Thibodeaux, who has gone to the police and
Speaker 7: again we talked about this don wannabe and he's talking
Speaker 7: to the FBI and Bob Basheer busts in and says,
Speaker 7: who are you talking to? He said, give me that phone.
Speaker 7: So he looks at it and he goes, oh cop.
Speaker 7: He says, look at this, it's a cop. What the
Speaker 7: hell you doing? And I figure, okay, the gig's up now,
Speaker 7: I mean, because you've written it that way, we don't
Speaker 7: know what's going to go on. Tim took one of
Speaker 7: the guys and he was told, if you're talking to
Speaker 7: the cops, and he was super paranoid. He went to
Speaker 7: all his tenants and said, if you're talking to the cops,
Speaker 7: you have to let me know, not please let me know,
Speaker 7: you let me know. So he was freaked. He thought
Speaker 7: everybody was, you know, being wired, and some people were
Speaker 7: so he said, who is this and so oh Steve
Speaker 7: Thibodeau maybe not the guy, most deaf guy on his feet.
Speaker 7: He talked his way out of it somehow, So you
Speaker 7: figure man again, very very soprano esque with that life
Speaker 7: and deaft situation, but incredible.
Speaker 8: It seemed to me he was caught red handed there, right,
Speaker 8: And yeah, but no, I mean somehow, yeah, somehow Bob
Speaker 8: let that go. I don't know how even let it
Speaker 8: slide and just don't get that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's incredible, but yeah, yeahs interesting story, Yes, fascinating story.
Speaker 7: So again I want to thank you for coming on
Speaker 7: and talking about this incredible story. For those that might
Speaker 7: want to contact you or find more about your other
Speaker 7: work or Facebook, you tell us how people might do that.
Speaker 8: Well, let's see, you can go to www dot avalanche
Speaker 8: fi dot com and you can you know, and I
Speaker 8: always tell people, go, I don't want to not do
Speaker 8: this by some because you get less of a royalty
Speaker 8: and an Amazon, but you know, the book is available
Speaker 8: at Amazon. You can get all four of my true
Speaker 8: crime books there. These are all published by Penguins Berkeley
Speaker 8: imprint through crime imprint and let's see you can follow
Speaker 8: me on Twitter at pen vengeance and so between that.
Speaker 8: If anybody wants to get hold of me, they got
Speaker 8: a great case they think would be cool. I always
Speaker 8: like to hear that kind of stuff.
Speaker 7: Well, it's been a real pleasure Steve talking about murder
Speaker 7: in gross Point Park, privileged adultery and the killing of
Speaker 7: Jane vishera very very incredible and very entertaining and again
Speaker 7: quite a yarn that you've picked there for us for
Speaker 7: our enjoyment this evening. Thank you very much, Steve. You
Speaker 7: have a great evening and hope to talk to you
Speaker 7: again soon.
Speaker 8: Okay, I appreciate it. Good talking with you.
Speaker 7: Thank you, good night, good night
Speaker 8: Now.