1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Apologetics three fifteen podcast with 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,199 your hosts Brian Auten and Chad Gross. Join us for 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,800 conversations and interviews on the topics of apologetics, evangelism, and 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,160 the Christian worldview. 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: How can we be expected to teach children to learn 6 00:00:22,039 --> 00:00:25,079 how to read if they can't even fit inside the building? 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,679 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. This is Brian Auten 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,079 and I'm Chad Gross, and today we're really excited to 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,759 have on the podcast again. Doctor Michael Lacona. He's a 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,799 distinguished New Testament scholar, apologist and author, and he's going 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,280 to be discussing his latest book, Jesus Contradicted Why the 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,799 Gospels tell the same story differently. So a little bit 13 00:00:47,799 --> 00:00:49,880 about doctor Lacona. He's well known for his work on 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,759 the resurrection of Jesus, historical reliability of the New Testament, 15 00:00:54,159 --> 00:00:58,399 and his nuanced approach to apologetics. His extensive research into 16 00:00:58,439 --> 00:01:02,640 ancient biography has shaped a unique perspective on the Gospels, 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,760 exploring how gospel writers used common literary practices of their time, 18 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,439 like selective paraphrasing, to convey the life and teachings of Jesus. 19 00:01:11,599 --> 00:01:15,400 In his book, Jesus contradicted. Doctor Lakona tackles questions about 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,719 why the Gospel accounts sometimes appear at odds and offers 21 00:01:19,719 --> 00:01:24,480 a framework that respects both the historical context and biblical authority. 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,680 So his insights invite readers to understand these variations not 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,280 as errors, but as part of a genre, with his 24 00:01:31,359 --> 00:01:34,920 own narrative techniques providing a fresh lens through which to 25 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,719 explore the New Testament. So, Chad, let's dive into doctor 26 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:43,280 Lacona's approach to reconciling gospel differences while froving the reliability 27 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:43,799 of scripture. 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's get ready, switch me on. 29 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Well, Michael Lacona, thanks for joining us for the interview. 30 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks Brian. Great to be with you guys. 31 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: Yes, well, Chad and I have been talking about your 32 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,000 book and all the great content in there. We've really 33 00:02:01,079 --> 00:02:06,120 enjoyed it, and it's a shortened version of some of 34 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:11,159 your more academic work. So, you know, I like audiobooks, 35 00:02:11,159 --> 00:02:14,879 and I looked at the audiobook version of your Historical Approach. 36 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,759 It was like twenty hours long, and I thought, yeah, 37 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,840 let's wait for that popular version. But I've listened to 38 00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:24,319 it and then I listened to their lecture version of it, 39 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,120 and I just thought, man, this has some great content. 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,599 So talk to us a little bit about your approach 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,919 to the gospels, what you're trying to answer in looking 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,439 at gospel differences, and maybe a thumbnail of the direction 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:37,919 you take. 44 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I've debated bart Erman mostly on the resurrection. 45 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,599 We've debated seven times, five times have been on the resurrection, 46 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:50,599 two times on the reliability of the gospels, and almost 47 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,520 on every occasion. One of his main objections is that 48 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,439 the Gospels have differences and that this disqualifies them from 49 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:02,439 being historically reliable sources of Jesus. And Ermine is not 50 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,639 the only one to cite gospel differences. I mean many 51 00:03:05,759 --> 00:03:10,199 many skeptics. Most skeptics are going to appeal to gospel differences. 52 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,199 And in fact, Gary haveermass the foremost authority in the 53 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:17,080 world on the resurrection of Jesus. He said that over 54 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,439 the years, although it's not the major objection against the 55 00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:23,439 resurrection today, over the years it has been the major objection, 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,080 that is, gospel differences to the resurrection of Jesus. So 57 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,039 by the time I had been debating Ermine and he's 58 00:03:31,199 --> 00:03:34,439 bringing these up starting in two thousand and eight, I 59 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:38,719 had already looked at with the resurrection of Jesus, had 60 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:43,159 done deep dives into this, and you know, came to 61 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:48,120 the firm conclusion that the historical evidence, the data strongly 62 00:03:48,159 --> 00:03:50,599 suggests that Jesus rose from the dead, and if Jesus 63 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:56,319 rose from the dead, it's game, set match. Christianity is true, period, 64 00:03:56,599 --> 00:03:59,280 And no matter what objection you want to come up with, 65 00:03:59,439 --> 00:04:05,879 such as Genesis has it's a mythical account about creation, 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,639 or the flood account of Noah was borrowed from the 67 00:04:10,719 --> 00:04:14,800 go gomesh Epic, or whatever the genocide text in the 68 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,279 Old Testament, or we don't know who wrote the Gospels, 69 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:21,680 whatever you want to bring up. If Jesus rose, Christianity 70 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,360 is still true. All right. So I was, you know, 71 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:28,560 you still have questions about things, but I was pretty 72 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:33,120 much at peace with this. The gospel differences didn't bother 73 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,639 me anymore, but they did bother a lot of others. 74 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,720 And so I decided that I would do a deep 75 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,759 dive into that. And so I spent eight years looking 76 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,000 very carefully at things. I read through the Gospels eight 77 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:50,160 or nine times in Greek, and made a catalog of 78 00:04:50,199 --> 00:04:53,680 all the differences that I found in them. I read 79 00:04:53,879 --> 00:04:59,399 began reading ancient biographies, and before I could get through 80 00:04:59,439 --> 00:05:02,480 Plutarch's lives, which forty eight of the more than sixty 81 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,639 that he wrote have survived, Plutarch being considered the greatest 82 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,920 ancient biographer, I was finding whoa, you know, there are 83 00:05:11,079 --> 00:05:14,839 numerous accounts that report the same events going on, and 84 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,000 like Caesar's assassination is mentioned in four of those lives, 85 00:05:19,079 --> 00:05:22,600 the Catalinarian conspiracy is mentioned in seven of those lives. 86 00:05:22,879 --> 00:05:25,600 So what if we examined these how the same author, 87 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:28,560 using the same sources report the same events. What do 88 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:31,040 we find? So anyway, I spent a lot of time 89 00:05:31,079 --> 00:05:34,360 with that, and then thought, okay, I'm finding some compositional 90 00:05:34,399 --> 00:05:37,680 devices that Plutarch used. And then I'm studying Theon and 91 00:05:37,759 --> 00:05:43,079 Quintillion and Homogenes and people like that, these in the 92 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,959 compositional textbooks, and how they were training people and how 93 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,360 to write well. And they said that historians, that historians 94 00:05:50,399 --> 00:05:53,959 are using these certain techniques, and that they're used in 95 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,920 every form of writing. Thought, well, if this is the 96 00:05:56,959 --> 00:06:00,519 case of all ancient historians and biographers are using, what 97 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:03,399 about the Gospels? What if I went to that catalogue 98 00:06:03,399 --> 00:06:07,319 of differences that I had put together and started examining 99 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:10,959 those and reading them in view of the compositional devices 100 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,959 that were part and parts of over writing ancient biography 101 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,079 would shed some light and WHOA was it an eye opener? 102 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,519 And it just you know. I remember sharing it with 103 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,319 Dan Wallace and he said, Mike, I don't still know. 104 00:06:24,439 --> 00:06:27,959 I know one before this has had this idea to 105 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,120 look at the Gospels in this sense because it's so 106 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,079 self evident. And I said, I don't know either. I'm 107 00:06:35,079 --> 00:06:37,759 not the sharpest tool in the shed, so you know, 108 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,680 it's a but it does seem self evident. And when 109 00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:44,759 you read the differences in the Gospels and view of 110 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,839 the compositional devices that other ancient biographers did and that 111 00:06:49,319 --> 00:06:52,439 are prescribed by the compositional textbook, a whole lot more 112 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,600 comes into focus. So I published the first book, Why 113 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,360 Are There Differences in the Gospels with the Oxford University 114 00:06:58,399 --> 00:07:02,759 Press in twenty seventeen. That's a monograph, of course, and 115 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,639 it's kind of dense for people who have never looked 116 00:07:07,639 --> 00:07:10,480 at this kind of stuff before. It's meant for grad students, 117 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,079 doctoral students, professors, you know, scholars things like that. But 118 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,720 then a number of people I've shared this they said, 119 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:18,800 and I'll just wrap it up with this, They said, 120 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,279 can you put the cookies on the lower shelf. But 121 00:07:21,319 --> 00:07:23,480 we don't know how to share this with others, and 122 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,920 it's kind of heavy. So I started working on it, 123 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,079 and after about three years I came with this book 124 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,959 Jesus Contradicted that was just published by sound of an academic, 125 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,199 And this book is receiving a lot more attention. People 126 00:07:37,319 --> 00:07:40,800 are are I'm getting so many positive comments from people 127 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,639 on how this has just revolutionized their their view of 128 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,279 the Gospels and solved a lot of the things that 129 00:07:48,319 --> 00:07:49,600 had made them uncomfortable. 130 00:07:49,839 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: One thing that maybe we can address is there might 131 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,680 be kind of two ways that people could respond. One 132 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:03,160 would be Aha, that makes sense, and now all my 133 00:08:04,079 --> 00:08:07,480 sort of questions are sort of resolved. It makes sense now, 134 00:08:08,199 --> 00:08:10,800 And the other side of the spectrum could be like, wait, 135 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:16,959 there's differences. Wait what about the trustworthiness of the text 136 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,000 and the inspiration of text? I thought that this was true, 137 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,639 and now you're telling me it's looking a little fuzzier here. 138 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,639 I don't Can you maybe explore the sort of responses 139 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,279 that people could have or the reactions they have when 140 00:08:31,279 --> 00:08:33,159 we talk about this subject that they may or may 141 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:34,000 not be familiar with. 142 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: Sure, and people do respond in both those ways I 143 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,279 have found. So I find that there's, as I talk 144 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,159 in the book, there are three different ways that tip 145 00:08:42,279 --> 00:08:45,480 people have different I find that they have responded. Number 146 00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:48,799 one is there's the Ostridge approach, and the Ostridge approach 147 00:08:48,879 --> 00:08:52,639 is where a person just says, I see these differences. 148 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,320 They trouble me. I don't have time to think about this, 149 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:56,799 I don't want to think about it, and they just 150 00:08:56,799 --> 00:08:59,720 stick their head in the ground. Then there is the harmonizer, 151 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,519 the peacemaker. It's the harmonizer. Can't we all got just 152 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,879 get along? You know? You know we can harmonize all 153 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:08,320 these things, well, you can. You know. It's like people 154 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,639 who three people who are looking at a car accident, 155 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,279 they just they're all reporting the same things, but they're 156 00:09:14,279 --> 00:09:16,480 reporting it from different angles and they're just saying a 157 00:09:16,519 --> 00:09:20,399 little bit differently, and we can make all of this fit. Yeah, 158 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,240 it can be kind of difficult sometimes, but we can 159 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,960 make them off it. The third one is the cruel 160 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,200 interrogator that really takes harmonization efforts to an extreme. And 161 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:37,159 it's like subjecting the gospel text to hermoneutical waterboarding until 162 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,360 they tell the interrogator what he wants to hear. And 163 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,919 that's just not treating the text with respect. And I 164 00:09:44,039 --> 00:09:47,480 thought that there's a better way. So what I would 165 00:09:47,879 --> 00:09:53,440 suggest is, when people are faced with these differences, okay, 166 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,559 you can either insulate them. You can say, well, there 167 00:09:58,639 --> 00:10:02,679 are potential answers to these, and I think this is fine. 168 00:10:02,879 --> 00:10:05,159 There are potential answers to these, and we may not 169 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,919 have the answer now, but you know, one is certainly 170 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,879 certainly there where we can harmonize that, and I think 171 00:10:10,919 --> 00:10:14,840 that can go too far. That's insulating a person. The 172 00:10:14,919 --> 00:10:18,399 other one is to inoculate them, all right, and I 173 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:22,919 think inoculations better. It's like, okay, here are the differences. 174 00:10:23,279 --> 00:10:28,200 They really exist, and yes, if you work really hard 175 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,440 with some of these, you may be able to harmonize them. 176 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:37,480 But come on, such harmonizations as are sometimes offered aren't 177 00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:42,720 really reasonable. I was once talking to a wonderful Mormon 178 00:10:42,759 --> 00:10:46,440 couple that I knew, and he had been a bishop 179 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,399 and a local ward at one point, and we became 180 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,679 friends and we talked very openly and honestly, and I 181 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,519 told him, you know, if Mormonism was true, I'd become 182 00:10:57,519 --> 00:10:59,759 a Mormon. And he asked if i'd be willing to 183 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:02,080 talk to some Mormon missionaries. I said yes, and I did. 184 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,000 And at one point I pointed out how the Book 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,639 of Mormon talks about this great battle that took place 186 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,480 on the Hill Camorrow, which most Mormons think was just 187 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,120 outside of Palmyra, New York. And the Book of Mormon 188 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,240 says that there were hundreds of thousands of people. This 189 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,240 is a pretty big hill, not a mountain, but it's 190 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,600 a pretty big hill. And they said hundreds of thousands here, 191 00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:28,720 and they died on this hill, and their bodies were 192 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,360 left to moldor and return to Mother Earth. In other words, 193 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:35,399 they weren't buried. And this battle took place right around 194 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:39,840 four hundred a d. So about sixteen hundred years ago. 195 00:11:40,399 --> 00:11:44,360 And let's say I told him, I talked to an 196 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,759 archaeologist up in that area at the University of Rochester 197 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,639 at the time, and this guy told me that just 198 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,240 fourteen hundred years ago, even though Palmyra by Rochester is 199 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:01,440 you got humidity and up there, so it's not going 200 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,039 to preserve things as well as say in a desert 201 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,840 area like Egypt, but only sixteen hundred years ago. There'd 202 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,840 be plenty of skeletal remains. Although you would have had 203 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,039 wild animals carry off a lot of the corpses of 204 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,519 the individuals, you'd still have a lot of skeletal remains. 205 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:20,279 You'd have remains of weapons that would be near the surface. 206 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,679 And so I said to the Mormons, I said, not 207 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:26,440 my Mormon friends, I said, so where are the bones? 208 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,720 Where are they if this battle actually happened here, where 209 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:34,679 are the artifacts? And I remember the guy's wife said, well, 210 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,039 maybe God took them. Well, yeah, I mean I can't 211 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:44,039 say that he didn't. But it's like that really sounds 212 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,679 like an ad hoc answer to rescue your view. And 213 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,120 I think a lot of these harmonization efforts appear the 214 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:57,559 same way. So I'm looking for real, authentic answers that 215 00:12:57,639 --> 00:13:01,039 seem the most reasonable way of accounting these differences. And 216 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:04,000 I think for the most part, for most of them, 217 00:13:04,039 --> 00:13:06,320 not all of them, but for most of them, I 218 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,279 think these compositional devices do a really good job of 219 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:09,720 doing that. 220 00:13:10,799 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 3: Before we talk about the compositional devices, you had mentioned 221 00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:18,080 that the Gospels belong to the genre of ancient biography 222 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,320 or Greco Roman biography. One of the kind of strange 223 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,000 things I've heard, and by the way, I'm in agreeance 224 00:13:24,039 --> 00:13:26,240 with that. But one of the strange things I've heard 225 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,519 is that there are some who hold the view that 226 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,440 the Gospels kind of belong to their own genre, that 227 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,879 is independent of other genres. I think I'm characterizing that properly. 228 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:40,279 So can you just give us and the listeners, like 229 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,879 one or two reasons why we should think that the 230 00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:45,799 Gospels are Greco Roman or ancient biography? 231 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:51,639 Speaker 2: Sure? Well, for one, they certainly focus on a single individual, 232 00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:54,039 right Jesus, Yeah, and you're going to do that in 233 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:59,120 a biography. Another thing would be the length of it. 234 00:13:59,279 --> 00:14:02,759 So the average ancient biography was between ten and twenty 235 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,639 five thousand words. You have the Gospel of Mark, which 236 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,840 is just over eleven thousand words as the shortest, and 237 00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:12,480 the Gospel of Luke at right around nineteen thousand words 238 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,799 as the longest, so they all fit within that the 239 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:23,200 average length of an ancient biography you have the focus on. 240 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,679 So in ancient biographies, there's very little, if anything, about 241 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:33,039 the person's childhood. They talk about the family, you know, 242 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,440 what kind of family they came from, Like the family lineage, 243 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,799 and then there is a jump, a leap from that 244 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:46,200 into the inauguration of the person's public life, be it military, 245 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:51,720 government or like a philosopher, religious figure. So that's what 246 00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:54,200 we have with Jesus. So if a person is wondering, 247 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:57,879 why don't we really have any stories about Jesus' childhood 248 00:14:57,879 --> 00:15:00,159 in the Gospels other than the one in Luke where 249 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:03,519 he's twelve years old in the temple area. That's the 250 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:05,240 only thing we have. Other than that, we don't have 251 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:07,840 anything about his childhood. If you wonder about that, well, 252 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:12,000 that was common of ancient biography. And then another thing 253 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,320 is an ancient biography according to Plutarch, and this is 254 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:22,279 the most cited passage in Plutarch his Life of Alexander 255 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,799 the Great, in chapter one. He's talking about the objective 256 00:15:25,799 --> 00:15:28,600 of ancient biography. And it's not like he invented it. 257 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,679 You know, this is what most This was a common practice, 258 00:15:34,039 --> 00:15:36,840 and that is you're going to report what the person 259 00:15:36,919 --> 00:15:41,039 said and did that illuminates their character, all right. So 260 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,639 that's what we find when you come to most ancient biographies. 261 00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:50,000 And it's interesting when you read the Gospels in view 262 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,480 of that principle. It's like, Wow, some things come to 263 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,080 light that's clear that you never saw before. So it's 264 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,000 like in Mark chapter one, it begins by saying, as Isaiah, 265 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:02,720 the prophet said, the voice of one crying in the wilderness, 266 00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:05,559 prepare the way of the Lord, makes straight his paths. 267 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:08,159 And it's like, you would think it's going to be 268 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:13,399 Jesus preparing the way for God, because Isaiah and Isaiah 269 00:16:13,519 --> 00:16:16,440 it is the prophet preparing the way for God. But 270 00:16:16,519 --> 00:16:19,039 in Mark it's talking about John the Baptists, preparing the 271 00:16:19,039 --> 00:16:21,200 way for Jesus. So what does that say? From the 272 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:23,720 very beginning of the Gospel of whom Mark is going 273 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:27,679 to portray Jesus as being Mark Chapter two, Jesus heals 274 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:29,919 a paralytic and forgives him his sins, and the Jewish 275 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,840 leaders say, well, that's blasphemy. Why only God can forgive sins. 276 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,759 In chapter three, Jesus calms the wind and the waves, 277 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,039 which the Old Testament says is something God does. Chapter four, 278 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,919 he's expelling demons, casting out demons, and the Jewish leader said, well, 279 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,000 that's Satan casting out Satan, and Jesus says, no, Now 280 00:16:53,039 --> 00:16:55,159 wait a minute, fellas, if you want to rob a 281 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,360 strong man, what do you do? You go into his house. 282 00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:00,200 You have to bind the strong man first, and then 283 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,799 you can plunder his goods. And what he's saying by 284 00:17:02,799 --> 00:17:07,720 that is the strong man is Satan, and by casting 285 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:10,440 out demons, he's showing that he has bound Satan and 286 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,720 now is plundering his kingdom of souls. Well, what human 287 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,240 bind Satan? And then you have chapter five Jesus raises 288 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,359 the dead, something that God does. Chapter six you have 289 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,119 Jesus walking on water, something that only God can do. 290 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,960 And then you have Jesus multiple times through out there 291 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,440 making claims that he can do certain things that God does. 292 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,759 So when you read, say the Gospels in view of 293 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:41,720 their ancient biographical genre, wow, some things come into view 294 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:45,960 that you just did not see previously. So there's multiple 295 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,119 reasons why thinking the Gospels are ancient biographies. There are 296 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,079 others too. I've just named four now that said, not 297 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,319 all biographies are the same. Some of them had different emphases, 298 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,559 and biography was a fluid genre that could introduced some 299 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,960 other genres in it. So, for example, the Life of 300 00:18:04,039 --> 00:18:10,640 Julius Caesar by Plutarch also has a lot of qualities 301 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:13,920 that a history has, so it's kind of a hybrid 302 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:17,039 and Luke has that as well. It's a hybrid between 303 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:20,960 biography and history, but it's more biography because it's focused 304 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,440 on the life of a single individual. But you know, 305 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,599 certainly with the Gospels you have more of a theological 306 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:31,160 emphasis emphasis in it. So it's going to be different 307 00:18:31,279 --> 00:18:34,440 in that way than Plutarch's Lives, but it still falls 308 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,480 under the category or the genre of biography. Yeah. 309 00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 3: I thought one of the most helpful things from well, 310 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,440 there was a lot of helpful things in the book, 311 00:18:42,759 --> 00:18:45,039 but one of the things you pointed out was the 312 00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:49,480 error of reading having the same expectations for ancient biography 313 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,839 that we do for modern biography. And I thought that 314 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,559 was very eye opening and illuminating that we have to 315 00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:59,279 read ancient biography on its own merits, and you know, 316 00:18:59,319 --> 00:19:01,799 based on how they wrote in that time. And I 317 00:19:01,799 --> 00:19:05,279 think that really is very, like I said, illuminating. You 318 00:19:05,279 --> 00:19:08,559 had mentioned compositional devices, which is obviously like a key 319 00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:11,640 feature of the book, and explaining these differences, and so 320 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,319 I was wondering if you could unpack what a compositional 321 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,960 device is and then maybe give us an example or two. 322 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: So let's start with some the real basic ones first, 323 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,200 and I don't even know that you'd call these compositional devices. 324 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,920 They would just be means for paraphrasing, typical techniques for paraphrasing. Now, 325 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,880 paraphrasing today we get to kind of understanding. You just 326 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,559 maybe reword things a little bit differently, maybe use some 327 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:44,279 synonyms to replace a word. You had more radical kinds 328 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:50,000 of paraphrases and antiquity, so you would have addition, which 329 00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:53,680 would fit in with today's paraphrase to an extent. But 330 00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:58,599 addition would be like you would expand what was being 331 00:19:58,759 --> 00:20:02,160 said to tease things out a little bit more. So 332 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:07,079 you're not changing the facts, but you're explaining it more 333 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:13,799 to Okay, Okay, So if someone said, suppose Chad, you said, 334 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,279 you're telling a friend or your wife. I don't know 335 00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:20,799 if you're married, but you're telling your wife. Okay, so 336 00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:24,200 you're telling your wife. Yeah. I interviewed this dude named 337 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:30,200 Mike this afternoon, and then later on Brian paraphrases you 338 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:34,440 by saying, uh, yeah, we interviewed Mike on his new 339 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,519 book on gospel differences. Well, they're both the telling the truth, 340 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,279 but Brian has expanded. He's added in order to clarify. 341 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:47,000 Then there's subtraction. So let's say Brian had said what 342 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,200 he said, but then later on you're talking to your 343 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,759 wife and you just said, we interviewed Mike today. 344 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 4: Right, right, So you subtracted so real quick, if I 345 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,000 could interrupt. What I love about your example is that 346 00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:02,039 Brian told the girl version and I told the guy version. 347 00:21:05,319 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, Sorry, I couldn't let that fast. 348 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: I couldn't let that fast. Yeah, you know, I used 349 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,440 that in my lectures all the time, the guy versus 350 00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:19,640 the girl version of the story. And anybody who's married 351 00:21:20,039 --> 00:21:23,000 understands what I mean by that. And you know, you 352 00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:26,039 see the women in the audience. They're taking their elbow 353 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,000 and their elbowing their husbands. Now, of course, it's a stereotype, 354 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,200 and there are many exceptions to it. Zondervan, the publisher 355 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,359 of the new book, they didn't want me to use that, really, 356 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,799 they said, a lot of our readers they would be 357 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,839 offended by that. I said, are you kidding? Doing this 358 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:48,200 for fifteen years using that example, and people always laughed, Well, 359 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:52,160 you're talking to an evangelical audience, and we want this 360 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:56,000 to go beyond in a bigger reach. Than evangelicals, so 361 00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:58,400 they really wanted me to change it, so I just 362 00:21:58,519 --> 00:22:02,880 put the abbreviated versus the expanded version right right. So 363 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,359 it's like that was the one thing I didn't want 364 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,720 to change because I always get laughs from that. 365 00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 3: Well yeah, and it's also like intuitive and people immediately 366 00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:13,680 for the most part get it, and. 367 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, I like it as well. Yeah, So other 368 00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:19,160 means of paraphrasing, they would do things like changing a 369 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,119 statement to a question or a question to a command. 370 00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:27,039 They would do things like create a brief dialogue. So 371 00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:31,759 let's say that I gave a lecture for twenty minutes, 372 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,400 all right, What they would do is they'd break that 373 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:36,759 up as though I were having an interaction with one 374 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,960 or two or more people and have them ask questions 375 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:43,960 and I'd provide answers. So they change the scenario a 376 00:22:44,039 --> 00:22:48,039 little bit, but they just you would paraphrase it by 377 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,640 creating a dialogue. So you could do these kinds of things, 378 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,279 and we find all this kind of stuff that's going 379 00:22:54,359 --> 00:23:00,000 on throughout the Gospels on multiple multiple occasions and simple 380 00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:03,920 pair of phrases. So just to give you an example, 381 00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:09,680 you know, the parable of the sewer they sow the seeds. 382 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,039 Some goes on shallow grounds, some goes on rocky ground. Right, 383 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,680 there's thorns, there's rocks, all. 384 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:17,039 Speaker 3: That, and. 385 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: At the end it's and some fall on really good ground, 386 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:30,240 and it yields fruit. Mark says thirtyfold, sixtyfold, one hundredfold. Well, 387 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:33,720 Matthew reverses the order of that in his paraphrase, and 388 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:38,319 he says one hundredfold, sixtyfold, thirtyfold. That's assuming as most 389 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:42,359 scholars believe that Matthew and Luke used Mark as their 390 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,440 primary source and supplemented it. So he reverses the order. 391 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,160 Luke he subtracts. So he says, and it yielded fruit 392 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:55,559 one hundredfold. So you know, you go to the parable 393 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,559 the vineyard and the wicked tenants. You have Mark say, okay, 394 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:03,200 at the end, the owner of the vineyard sent someone 395 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:05,680 to collect from the first fruits, and they beat him 396 00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:09,319 up and throw it, threw him out, says Mark. And 397 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,680 then he sent a second and they treated him likewise terribly. 398 00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:16,240 And he sent a third. He sent a third servant, 399 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,480 and they beat him up and killed him. Well, Matthew, 400 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,319 and oh, and then he sent many others. Okay, So 401 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:32,359 Matthew just tells it he sent three individuals, three servants 402 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,160 to collect and they mistreated him, and then he sent 403 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,559 more than he did the first time. So what Matthew 404 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,240 does is instead of going one, two, three, he just 405 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,759 clumped the three into a single visit. And Matthew abbreviates, 406 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,720 or I should say, simplifies and conflats like this on 407 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,519 numerous occasions. So now we're going to get into the 408 00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:59,839 compositional devices, and that gets kind of interesting. That's the 409 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,200 most interesting stuff. So you've got literary spotlighting. That would 410 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,000 be you know, you've all been to a theatrical performance. 411 00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:10,640 There's multiple actors on the stage, and then the lights 412 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,759 go out, a spotlight goat comes on and shines on 413 00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:15,880 a single actor. Well, you know others are present on 414 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,000 the stage, but you only see the one because the 415 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,599 light is focused on that person. Literary spotlighting is when 416 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,559 an author knows that there are many people involved, several 417 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,279 people or more than one person involved, I should say, 418 00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:30,599 but only mentions one. So you can have this like 419 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:33,319 and this is very common in Plutarch's lives. I think 420 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,359 you've got this on three occasions in the resurrection narratives. 421 00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:42,440 So you have on Easter morning you have the women 422 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,240 come to the tomb, and in Matthew and Mark they 423 00:25:46,279 --> 00:25:48,559 see one angel, and Luke and John they see two angels. 424 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,680 All right, so that can be easily accounted for, whereas 425 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,440 Matthew and Mark are only focused on the angel who's 426 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,039 announcing that Jesus is raised. And then Matthew, Mark and 427 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,680 Luke say that the women went and reported this to 428 00:26:01,799 --> 00:26:06,200 the apostles, where as John says, Mary Magdalene went and 429 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:10,119 found Peter in the Beloved Disciple. Okay, so which is it? 430 00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:12,720 Is it just Mary Magdalene or were there multiple one? Well, 431 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,599 John doesn't say only Mary Magdalene, but he only mentions 432 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,720 Mary Magdalen. But I think he's got the others in 433 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,599 mine because she says to Peter and the Bloved Disciple 434 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,880 they have taken the Lord and we we don't know 435 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,400 where they've laid him. And then what happens. You got 436 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,519 Peter and the Bloved Disciple get up in John and 437 00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:33,359 they run to the tomb and find it. As Mary 438 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,480 has said, where is You've got Peter who gets up 439 00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:37,799 in Luke and runs to the tomb and finds it 440 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:40,599 as a woman had said, is it just Peter or 441 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,119 is it Peter in the bloved Disciple. Well, Luke doesn't 442 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,880 say just Peter, but he only mentions Peter. That's in 443 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,519 twenty four, chapter twenty four, verse eleven, but twelve verses 444 00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:53,119 later in verse twenty I'm sorry twenty four twenty four twelve. 445 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,160 But in twenty four to twenty four you've got Jesus 446 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,039 appearing to the man's disciples, and it says their eyes 447 00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:01,759 were kept from recaging him, and so he says, hey, 448 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,640 you know why the long faces fellas well? Are you 449 00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:07,000 the only one in Jerusalem that doesn't know what's going 450 00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:09,400 on here? And Jesus is playing with them? And he says, no, 451 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,799 what And well, Jesus, he was this prophet, we thought 452 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:16,119 he was a messiah, but just the other day he 453 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,440 was crucified. Some of our womenfolk went to the tomb 454 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,599 this morning, and they found angels there and said that 455 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,319 he had been raised from the dead. And then some 456 00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:27,279 of our own plural some of our own went to 457 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,440 the tomb and found it. As a woman had said, well, 458 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,440 wait a bit, and Luke, just twelve verses earlier, you 459 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,599 only mentioned Peter. Yes, so well, Luke, we don't do 460 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,799 that today. Well, yes, you do. You do it commonly. 461 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,160 But even if you don't look, I'm not trying to 462 00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:44,559 mislead you. 463 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 4: Guys. 464 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:48,519 Speaker 2: You got to study my writings according to the laws 465 00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:51,000 and the rules for writing and play in the first century, 466 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,440 rather than partying your ideas of modern precision upon my writings. 467 00:27:55,519 --> 00:27:59,200 It's your responsibility to do this, not my responsibility, to 468 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960 figure out the rules of writing in the twenty first 469 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,400 century and try to guess on that and write according 470 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,839 to those rules. So you have all these things there, 471 00:28:09,039 --> 00:28:11,319 I'll give you one more example, because I don't want 472 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,240 to just keep monopolizing by talking here. I'd rather try along. 473 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:22,200 So one of my favorite examples is the Jesus cleansing 474 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,240 the temple and cursing the fig tree. Matthew again is 475 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,839 going to give us the guy version, so Mark gives 476 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,960 us the girl version. So Mark he has Jesus come 477 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,279 in on Palm Sunday. He walks into the temple and 478 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,279 it's late in the day, so he just looks around, 479 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,319 and then they leave and they go to Bethany up 480 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,200 on the Mount of Olives, and they spend the night there. 481 00:28:42,359 --> 00:28:45,799 Monday morning he comes down. He's going into Jerusalem. Before 482 00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:47,839 he gets there, he sees the fig tree. He's hungry, 483 00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:50,440 no figs on it, so he curses it. Then he 484 00:28:50,519 --> 00:28:53,319 goes into the temple. He sees some things he doesn't like, 485 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,799 so he cleanses the temple. Monday right, cleanses the temple, 486 00:28:57,359 --> 00:28:59,799 then he leaves. They go back to Bethany. They spend 487 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:02,640 then there. Tuesday morning, they're returning to Jerusalem. They come 488 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,640 to the fake tree and Peter says, Lord, the tree 489 00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:09,839 that you cursed yesterday has withered and died. That's Mark's version. 490 00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:14,119 Now Matthew gives us the guy version. Matthew has Jesus 491 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,000 comeing on Palm Sunday, goes into the temple, and now 492 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,319 he's going to displace the temple cleansing from Monday in 493 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:27,440 Mark and transplant it in to Sunday and conflate it 494 00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:31,039 with the first temple visit. So the two events, the 495 00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:34,680 two visits, become one, and Jesus cleanses the temple on 496 00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:38,160 Palm Sunday. Then they leave. They go to Bethany on 497 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,640 the Mount of Olives. They spend the night there. Monday, 498 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:43,799 they are returning to Jerusalem. They come to the fig tree. 499 00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:48,000 No figs. Jesus curses it and Matthew says, immediately it 500 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:51,160 withers and dies. So here he takes two parts in 501 00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:54,720 Mark curses it one day, sees it witherill the next day, 502 00:29:54,759 --> 00:29:58,160 and he conflates the two and makes it one one experience, 503 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,160 one event, so we see. After doing this, he gives 504 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,519 us the guy version. He simplifies these accounts. So are 505 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,200 we getting an essentially faithful representation of what occurred? Yes? 506 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,359 Is it giving us a good accurate just to what occurred? Yes? 507 00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:16,039 But is it exactly what we would have seen had 508 00:30:16,119 --> 00:30:16,680 we been there? 509 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: No? Yeah, you know, it reminds me that it's just 510 00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:24,079 a message being conveyed. And to an analogy that comes 511 00:30:24,119 --> 00:30:26,039 in my mind is that as I'm watching you on 512 00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:30,160 the screen, because of my internet connection, the bandwidth might 513 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,599 go up or down. So at one minute your four 514 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:37,559 K resolution and another minute you're pretty grainy and there's 515 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:39,880 not a lot of detail, but the message is still 516 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,799 coming through. This is coming through. There's sometimes there's noise, 517 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:50,279 sometimes there's artifacts. Sometimes it's changed. Now let's say we 518 00:30:50,319 --> 00:30:52,559 didn't hit record at the beginning, we could have the 519 00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:56,400 same conversation again. You use completely different words but convey 520 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,440 the same idea and message. This communication. It's just the 521 00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:04,720 nature of conveying the messages that there's going to be 522 00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:08,119 differences every time it's communicated. There's going to be a 523 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,640 change of resolution depending on, you know, how detailed someone 524 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,480 wants to be or how clear they want to make 525 00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:19,640 a portion. But there's always compromises based upon Oh I 526 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,039 don't have a lot of time, I'm going to say 527 00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:23,920 this quick, or I've got plenty of time, let me elaborate. 528 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,599 I want to entertain people today, and let me add 529 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,960 some embellishments. So it's really a fascinating look at just 530 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,680 how we adapt messages based upon our audience, based upon 531 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,559 our own personality, but we're still conveying actual events. 532 00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, Brian. You know, I 533 00:31:46,079 --> 00:31:51,200 used to have a very wooden, stilted view of what 534 00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:55,920 scripture was. So I remember my final semester in college. 535 00:31:56,039 --> 00:31:59,720 I had one elective left, and I took Greek the 536 00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:02,039 first semester Greek. I wanted to learn Greek. I was 537 00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:04,559 a music major back then, but I wanted to learn Greek. 538 00:32:04,599 --> 00:32:07,839 So I took first semester and you learn vocabulary, you 539 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,079 learn how to pronounce, and so one day I'm just 540 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:16,599 reading I forget Jesus was having a conversation with someone, 541 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,000 and I was reading it in Greek, and I thought 542 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:22,960 I started to read it to myself, and I thought, wow, 543 00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:26,640 this is how Jesus actually sounded. I am uttering his 544 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,400 actual words here. How naive of me, because of course 545 00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:36,119 Jesus was probably uttering those words in Aramaic, not in Greek. 546 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,319 I was reading the Greek translation. Now that's not that 547 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,559 that's bad or anything, but I'm not reading the actual 548 00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:46,319 words of Jesus. I'm reading a translation of those words. 549 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,799 And then you go further and you say, well, you 550 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,039 look at Jesus' words, like in the Sermon on the Mount. 551 00:32:54,279 --> 00:32:57,519 Compare Matthew with Luke. There are differences. You compare what 552 00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:01,160 he says to his disciples when he missions them. In Matthew, 553 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,039 Mark and Luke there are differences. And Parberty says that 554 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,839 when he's feeding the five thousand in Matthew, Mark, Luke, 555 00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:11,240 and John there are differences. It can't be word for word. 556 00:33:11,359 --> 00:33:17,119 These are not transcripts of what Jesus said, as though 557 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:23,680 transcripts in a legal deposition. These are recollections of what 558 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,799 Jesus said. I think they're accurate ones but as I 559 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,720 think you're right on, Brian, they are conveying the message 560 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:35,519 behind Jesus words. We shouldn't be looking at these as 561 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,480 though they are reporting Jesus' words like transcript after watching 562 00:33:39,559 --> 00:33:39,960 a video. 563 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: Yeah you know you said, you know, you debated bard 564 00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:47,400 Airman many times, and anyone who's heard him give his spiel, 565 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,240 it's always like, well, how many angels were at the tomb? 566 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,599 It depends on which gospel you read, and you know it. 567 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,839 This is the book that you've written almost as a 568 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,200 response to that. But too bad we couldn't get that 569 00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:05,319 back to bart Airman when he was in Moody and 570 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,519 his whole worldview collapsed when he had that brittle, same 571 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:14,800 brittle view of Well, if I can't trust that was 572 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,239 reported with one hundred percent accuracy, I guess maybe God 573 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,280 doesn't exist. You know, everything goes, you know, the whole, 574 00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,360 the whole. He loses the whole farm based upon putting 575 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,119 everything on one pillar of inerrancy or a brittle form 576 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:31,639 of inerrancy or something, you know. 577 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 2: One of the viewers on Amazon Brian said he wondered 578 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,519 if if bard Erman had had this book years ago, 579 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,840 if it would have made a difference right exactly. Yeah, 580 00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:47,519 of course we can't know that, but it is an 581 00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,320 interesting question because there are others out there right now 582 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:52,519 with similar struggles. 583 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 3: So, Mike, I'm asking you maybe to speculate here a 584 00:34:56,519 --> 00:34:58,719 little bit, and so if you're not comfortable, please let 585 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,440 me know. But you may and I might not be 586 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,000 phrasing this exactly how you said it, but essentially, if 587 00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:07,800 I could go back in time, find a DeLorean, and 588 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,159 I could go back in time and I could watch 589 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,039 or listen to the Sermon on the Mount or perhaps 590 00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:18,880 some of Jesus' most famous interactions with the Pharisees and 591 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,440 the Sadducees, or maybe listened to a parable that the 592 00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:25,480 message would come through, as you and Brian have illustrated. 593 00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:28,800 But I wouldn't hear it word for word most likely, well, 594 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,599 I mean I wouldn't hear it word for word. Do 595 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,840 you think that is why there has been among pockets 596 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,199 of people some pushback against your thesis, is because they 597 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,519 find that worrisome or threatening, or that it somehow undermines 598 00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:49,280 the authority of scripture or what do you think there? 599 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: I hope I'm said that clear enough. I don't know. 600 00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:59,039 There's probably several reasons from the pockets different pockets. I 601 00:35:59,079 --> 00:36:01,599 would think that some of them, yeah, they would struggle 602 00:36:01,639 --> 00:36:06,360 with that. Others, I think the main detractors that I've 603 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,639 seen have said, well, that's fact changing and God wouldn't 604 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,880 do that. I say, well, you better be careful and 605 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,639 kind of look at what God did rather than trying 606 00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:21,519 to guess what he would do. You know, if you 607 00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:23,760 look at Mark chapter one, verse five, it says that 608 00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:28,239 all of the region of Judea and every Jerusalem might 609 00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:31,559 came out to see John the Baptist and were baptized 610 00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:36,000 by him. Now are we really to think that everyone 611 00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:41,880 in the region and everyone living in Jerusalem, including the 612 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,400 Sanhedrin and the high Priest, came out and were baptized 613 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,960 by John the Baptists. Well, of course not. Mark is 614 00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:52,440 using hyperbolic language here, but in doing so he has 615 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,239 actually changed the facts. The facts would be that there 616 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,880 were many people coming out from the region and even 617 00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:02,880 Jerusalem to see John a Baptist, and many of those 618 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,519 were being were being baptized by him. That's the fact 619 00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:11,039 of what was happening. But Mark uses hyperbolic language to 620 00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:14,880 say everyone, everyone who lived in Jerusalem and the entire 621 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,320 region came out to see John and were baptized by him. Well, 622 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,679 Mark changed the facts, but we know what he was doing. 623 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,679 And when it comes to these compositional devices, they could 624 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,920 have recognized that a lot of this was that, and 625 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,199 it wouldn't have bothered them at all. They may not 626 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,880 even have recognized some of those, like if they changed 627 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,360 a statement into a question or created a dialogue out 628 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,559 of it, but it really wouldn't have bothered them. So yeah, 629 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,559 I think they just have a wooden view of scripture. 630 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,800 And yeah, they might think that this impacts inspiration, but 631 00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:54,920 you know, they should ask the question. This is something 632 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,639 I try to deal with in the book. What is inspiration? 633 00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:01,239 How did it occur? What does it mean to say 634 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,159 the Bible is divinely inspired? What did that mean to them? 635 00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:05,599 Speaker 1: What? 636 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 4: You know? 637 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 2: Can we how does this fit in with the differences 638 00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:13,280 and some of the other phenomena that we find in scripture. 639 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,039 Speaker 3: So let's imagine I'm doing a Bible study and I 640 00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:25,079 come across some of these a difference perhaps you know, 641 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,800 how many angels at the twomb or whatnot, And that's 642 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,119 the one that's coming to my mind. 643 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 2: How do we. 644 00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:35,199 Speaker 3: Approach it in the sense of should I turn to 645 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:41,480 a compositional device? Two to explain that, should I go 646 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,280 for harmonization first? You know, how how do we kind 647 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,559 of practically apply this? 648 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 2: I guess in a sense, I think different people are 649 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,840 going to prefer different ways. For me, I mean some 650 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,559 people have said I've heard some apologists say, well, we're 651 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:02,280 going to try and we're going to use harmonization first, 652 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,000 and if that doesn't work, then we think Mike's idea 653 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:08,360 of compositional devices should be the next step. And for me, 654 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:13,119 I'd say, well, look, if I don't mind some harmonization, 655 00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:20,280 but if or really, since compositional devices were part and 656 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,400 parcel of writing ancient literature, why shouldn't that be the 657 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,000 go to? Why shouldn't if we know that paraphrasing and 658 00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:34,719 compositional devices were used by all ancient writers, why shouldn't 659 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,800 we read the gospels and their differences in view of 660 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,079 these that might be the best way to do it. 661 00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:46,039 In some cases you may prefer harmonization, But for me, 662 00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:48,960 I think the go to, the default position is to 663 00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:52,679 look for paraphrasing and compositional devices. 664 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,519 Speaker 3: Well, and just as a follow up to that, because 665 00:39:55,559 --> 00:39:59,039 I know Brian has a question. I think for me 666 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,199 too that and I'm not sure I'm articulating this as 667 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,559 well as I want to. But in a lot of cases, 668 00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,679 these compositional devices what impressed me in reading the book 669 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,000 is that they're really clean in the way that they 670 00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:15,199 describe the difference in a way that many times harmonization. 671 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,639 I mean, I know I've read harmonization books in the past, 672 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,400 like Big Book of Bible Difficulties, and in some cases 673 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,800 that's helpful, but then in other in other times I 674 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,840 kind of even leave the kind of the attempt to 675 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,320 reconcile the two passages with this feeling of. 676 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess. 677 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 3: Maybe whereas my experience reading your book a lot of 678 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,440 times was like, Wow, that's that's so comprehensive in explaining 679 00:40:41,519 --> 00:40:44,559 that difference, and there's just a lot of I think, 680 00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:48,920 fruitful explanatory power with the compositional devices that I don't 681 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:51,519 see as often with the harmonizations. 682 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a guy that out in California named Ricardo. 683 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,280 He's a school teacher, high school teacher, and he told 684 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,960 me that he went to a major Christian university I'm 685 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,280 not going to mention which one, and he did a 686 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,800 master's degree in Christian apologetics, a very good program too 687 00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:17,280 out at this university. And he said, the one thing 688 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,559 that plagued him, really troubled him was Gospel differences. And 689 00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:23,440 so he read the Big Book of Bible Difficulties. He 690 00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:28,760 read the Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Glease and Archer, 691 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,840 Big Book by Geisler and how and he read others, 692 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,400 and he said he found that a lot of times 693 00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:40,880 their solutions made the problem even worse for him. And 694 00:41:41,119 --> 00:41:45,159 so he said, for twenty years this plagued him and 695 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:50,440 prevented him from emotionally from having a vibrant Christian life. 696 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:53,639 And then one day he was listening to a podcast 697 00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:58,360 by William Lane Craig where Craig mentioned my book, the 698 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,480 first book, Differences in the Gospel. It's the more academic version, 699 00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:06,119 and he said he bought the book. He took a 700 00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:09,000 day off from teaching, and he read it, the whole 701 00:42:09,039 --> 00:42:13,039 book in a single day. Wow. And he said, he said, 702 00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:16,559 I'm writing this with tears right now. You have restored 703 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,960 my faith in the Gospels. I wish that I had 704 00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:23,880 had this book years ago. Please keep doing what you 705 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:27,920 are doing so and that you read that testimony in 706 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:28,480 the New Book. 707 00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:33,639 Speaker 1: So yeah, it seems to me like if I come 708 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,480 to the scripture and I look at the Gospels, and 709 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:44,039 my preconceived idea is now everything is perfect, true, ac 710 00:42:44,559 --> 00:42:48,119 inspired of God in errant, and then I come across 711 00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:52,280 these things. I'm trying to filter everything I read through 712 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,320 that lens, and then I have to do like bend 713 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,320 over backwards to reconcile things and force it into what 714 00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:05,559 I think it means to be without error, things like 715 00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:09,360 that in order to preserve that doctrine. Whereas if I 716 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:14,000 approach the text of in such a way, starting with, hey, 717 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,159 this is communication, These are messages. What is the center 718 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,199 trying to say? How would the receivers have received it? 719 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,840 And what are the facts they're trying to convey? And 720 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,440 how are they conveying the facts? I don't see it 721 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,639 as fact changing. I see as facts is something separate 722 00:43:32,039 --> 00:43:37,039 from the communication. That's the objective thing they're trying to communicate. Well, 723 00:43:37,079 --> 00:43:40,960 how are they trying to communicate it. They can exaggerate facts, 724 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,320 it doesn't change them. The facts are never going to change, 725 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,000 So they can't change the facts. They can communicate the 726 00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:52,360 facts in a way that embellishes or alters how someone 727 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,199 might think about it. But I think it just doesn't 728 00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:57,320 make sense to me to start from the other way around. 729 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,880 It makes more sense of the text to just like 730 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,679 what you said in the book, you said, whatever sort 731 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,280 of idea we have about inerancy, it should based upon 732 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,960 what we see happening in the scripture. Maybe you could 733 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,119 talk a little bit about that. 734 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,079 Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, that was a great point. Yeah. I 735 00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:17,360 give two principles. What principal Number one is our view 736 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,239 of scripture should be consistent with what we observe in scripture. 737 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,800 And then the second principle is if we truly want 738 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,199 to have a high view of scripture, then we should 739 00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:30,880 accept that as God has given it to us, instead 740 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,440 of trying to force it to fit a mold of 741 00:44:33,519 --> 00:44:36,760 how we think He should have. And if we neglect 742 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,159 in doing this, we may think we have a high 743 00:44:39,199 --> 00:44:42,079 view of scripture, when in reality, we have a high 744 00:44:42,159 --> 00:44:47,000 view of our view of scripture. So a lot of 745 00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:50,280 these differences, I don't consider those to be errors. Like 746 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,440 when Mark chapter one, verse five, when he changes it 747 00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:57,559 to many people being baptized by John to everyone was 748 00:44:57,639 --> 00:45:00,559 baptized by John, I don't consider that to be an 749 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:06,480 error because it's hyperbole. When you have these common compositional 750 00:45:06,559 --> 00:45:10,800 devices that were part and parcel of writing, all ancient writing. 751 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,800 I don't consider that in an error. But even if 752 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,719 you do well, then that does lead to the question 753 00:45:20,039 --> 00:45:23,159 of what is inspiration and what is an errancy? And 754 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,960 these are two as you know, these are two topics 755 00:45:26,039 --> 00:45:31,199 that I tackle in chapters eleven and twelve in the book. Now, 756 00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:35,559 when we talk about inspiration, what does that mean? So 757 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,519 you have the common verse that has appealed to is 758 00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:44,440 tewod Timothy three sixteen. All scripture is Theanustas God breathed, 759 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,079 So what does that mean? That does sound like dictation, 760 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,360 doesn't it? But most people will say, well, it's not 761 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,000 divine dictation, but what is it? So I did a 762 00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:57,519 word study and there's about twenty five hundred uses of 763 00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:00,880 this word in antiquity. But if you limit because the 764 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,159 word can change and its meaning over the years, just 765 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,000 like it does in English. So you know, like English 766 00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:10,079 words do I mean even right now there are some 767 00:46:10,199 --> 00:46:13,920 who are trying to change the meaning of woman and 768 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:19,480 man right, so of course the Austas could have different 769 00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:24,400 meanings in different context and change in meaning. Well, let 770 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,039 me give you an example on English. So apology. You know, 771 00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:30,440 a couple hundred years ago in English that meant to 772 00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:34,599 provide a defense, but today it's to say I'm sorry. Right, 773 00:46:35,079 --> 00:46:39,880 it's really changed Morpheden, it's meaning rather than defending why 774 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:44,239 you did, you are expressing remorse for what you did. 775 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,280 That's what an apology is. So but that can be 776 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,679 in Greek as well well, and it does happen that way. 777 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,519 So what did it mean in the first couple of centuries? 778 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,639 So you've got uses of the term that may go 779 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,440 back into the second entry BC. And if you look 780 00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:05,199 at just up through the beginning of the third century, 781 00:47:05,559 --> 00:47:07,559 you've got from the time as far as we can 782 00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:10,440 go back to about the year two hundred, you've got 783 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,159 eight to thirteen possible times in which theo ustas occurs 784 00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:18,000 in the literature. And it could mean more, but I 785 00:47:18,079 --> 00:47:21,719 mean it's also used in secular literature. I think at 786 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,480 the very minimum, it means that something has its ultimate origin, 787 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,039 or in some sense it derives from God. So streams 788 00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:33,159 are said to be theod nustas ointment put on a 789 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,719 corpse is said to be a theod nustas ether, which 790 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,840 was an all encompassing substance that include air. I think 791 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,920 it was Vidius Valens and his anthologies said that that 792 00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:48,679 is theo nustas. The sibiling Oracles say that all things 793 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,639 are theod Nustas. You've got the early Christian literature called 794 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,719 the Lives of Karpus, Papalis and Agathanese saying that not 795 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,920 only scripture, but the teachings of the Church are theod nustas. 796 00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:05,320 So it does seem that that it doesn't necessarily require perfection. 797 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,480 And in fact, by the time you get to Origin 798 00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:09,519 in the beginning of the third century, who mentions it 799 00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:12,760 more than anyone else. He mentions thestas forty nine times. 800 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,159 He believes that it derives from God. But for him 801 00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:24,280 that did not involve or prohibit discrepancies in the surface details, 802 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,360 because he acknowledged that where there were surface discrepancies in 803 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:33,159 the details of scripture. So the ancients, I don't think 804 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,480 that they would have imagined that in errant I'm sorry, 805 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,360 sustas got breathed required for something to be perfect, and 806 00:48:41,599 --> 00:48:46,440 that in errancy would of necessity follow from it, as 807 00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:48,360 many an Arrentists believe today. 808 00:48:49,119 --> 00:48:53,159 Speaker 3: So Mike, kind of as we're starting to wind things down, 809 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:58,360 if you will, how would you counsel pastors to teach 810 00:48:58,639 --> 00:49:04,119 or engage with gospel differences for their with their congregations. 811 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,840 Speaker 2: Gosh, it will sound almost self promoting, which I don't 812 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,199 want it to. But I'd say, you know, read this 813 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,960 book because you know it explains a lot. There is 814 00:49:15,079 --> 00:49:17,800 also a video course that I mean, they can do 815 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,159 it audible, but there's a video course that's available for it. 816 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,360 I think it's you have to get it directly from 817 00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:28,719 zonovin sixty nine US dollars and it's got thirteen videos, 818 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,320 so you can have small group stuff. Small groups go 819 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,440 through it, and the book itself is just already set 820 00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:38,920 up where it is friendly for small group usage. But 821 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,199 I would say, if you're going to tell your congregation 822 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,320 and talk on gospel differences, the main thing that I 823 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:51,800 would communicate to people is not very technical at all. 824 00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:55,519 And it's something I said at the very beginning. Since 825 00:49:55,639 --> 00:49:59,760 Jesus rose from the dead, Christianity is true, it's game, 826 00:50:00,119 --> 00:50:04,840 set match, period And so even if in the worst 827 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,639 case scenario there are errors and contradictions in the gospels, 828 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,039 which we haven't said that there are or positive that 829 00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:15,920 there are, but even if there are errors and contradictions 830 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:21,159 in the Gospels, it may impact how we view scripture, 831 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,000 but it doesn't change the fact that Christianity is true 832 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,599 because if Jesus rose, he did so in either the 833 00:50:27,679 --> 00:50:30,360 year thirty or thirty three, and the first piece of 834 00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:35,079 literature in our New Testament wasn't written until the late forties, right, 835 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,440 So there's at least fifteen years the twenty years or 836 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,519 maybe even longer before the first piece of literature in 837 00:50:42,559 --> 00:50:44,639 the New Testament was written, and maybe even longer than 838 00:50:44,679 --> 00:50:47,039 that for the first Gospel to be written. So even 839 00:50:47,079 --> 00:50:50,280 if there are errors and contradictions, it couldn't negate the 840 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,760 truth of Christianity because Christianity was true before any of 841 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,159 them were even composed. So I think that is the 842 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,440 most important takeawayh. 843 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,119 Speaker 3: That's helpful, And you know, in your defense, you know, 844 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,639 in this case, I think it's justifiable to promote your 845 00:51:06,679 --> 00:51:09,519 own book because you're really the only one who's written 846 00:51:09,599 --> 00:51:12,719 on this to date. So who else you going to recommend? 847 00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:16,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a few others like Christopher Pelle, now the 848 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,360 foremost authority in the world on Plutarch, who has written 849 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:27,519 on this much shorter stuff regarding Plutarch, right, but he 850 00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:30,840 even acknowledges that I've taken that further than he has 851 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,280 on Plutarch when it comes to Gospel. Now, he knows 852 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,000 far more about Plutarch than I do, so I don't 853 00:51:37,079 --> 00:51:39,440 want to, you know, give any false impression here. He 854 00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:41,559 know it's a whole lot more about Plutarch and Cicero 855 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,039 and all these others than I do. But he says, 856 00:51:44,199 --> 00:51:47,159 he is acknowledged that I've taken this further with Plutarch 857 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,679 than he has, and I'm the only one at this 858 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,960 point that has also applied it to the Gospels. So yeah, 859 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,679 it is some groundbreaking stuff, yes, and I'm grateful you 860 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:57,440 did it well. 861 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,280 Speaker 1: Mike Lakona, thank you so much for joining us. Link 862 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,159 to your book and other resources in the show notes. 863 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,760 We're just really glad to have another opportunity to speak 864 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,960 with you, and we just wish all the best for 865 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,239 this book and also in your further work. 866 00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 2: Well. Thanks Brian and Chad. It's been delightful talking to 867 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,920 both of you and serious this has been great and 868 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,760 appreciate the work that both of you are doing, so 869 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,440 thank you for your work for the kingdom. 870 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the podcast. 871 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,239 If you have a question you'd like us to address, 872 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,679 or just a message for us feedback good or bad, 873 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,119 you can either email us at podcast at apologetics three 874 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,239 fifteen dot com or leave a voice message for us 875 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,519 using speak Pipe. Just go to speakpipe dot com slash 876 00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:48,199 apologetics three fifteen to leave us a message. And remember, 877 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,880 if you include a Ghostbuster's quote in your question, we 878 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,719 guarantee that we'll read it on the podcast. We also 879 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,360 ensure up to fifty percent better quality answers. Also, if 880 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,719 you've enjoyed today's podcast, please leave a review iTunes or 881 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,760 the podcast platform in your choice, and please share this 882 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,559 episode with a friend if you found it useful. Remember 883 00:53:06,599 --> 00:53:09,519 you can find lots of apologetics resources at apologetics three 884 00:53:09,559 --> 00:53:12,800 fifteen dot com. Along with show notes for today's episode. 885 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,719 Find Chad's apologetic stuff over at truthbomb apologetics. That's truthbomb 886 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,960 dot blogspot dot com. This has been Brian Aughten and 887 00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:24,159 Chad Gross for the Apologetics three fifteen podcast, and thanks 888 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:24,760 for listening.