WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.040 The Projection Booth podcast is sponsored by Scarecrow Video. Try 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:06.080 out Scarecrows run by mail service. Choose from over one 3 00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:08.679 hundred and fifty thousand films and get blu rays, four 4 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:13.160 k's and DVDs delivered directly to your door. Visit scarecrow 5 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:14.240 dot com today. 6 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:22.239 Oh yez, folks, it's showtime. 7 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:25.600 People say good money to see this movie. When they 8 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:26.480 go out to a theater. 9 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:29.399 They want clod sodas, hot popcorn in. 10 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:32.920 No monsters in the Projection Booth. Everyone for tend podcasting 11 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:33.520 isn't boring. 12 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:35.240 Cut it off. 13 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.119 When I saw Claire again for the first time that summer, 14 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:01.600 it was at a party given by Oh, let's say 15 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:05.120 the exes. The young girl in the white dress and 16 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:09.400 Claire were friends, obviously, but beyond that, I sensed a 17 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:14.280 strange link between them, a kind of electricity, although I 18 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:17.159 had never heard it said that Claire was particularly interested 19 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:18.480 in girls. 20 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.959 She's pretty happy. Yes, she likes doing that. 21 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:26.200 You know it excites me. 22 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:28.920 I can prove it to you if you like. 23 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.200 She loves it when we put her on her knees 24 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:39.120 so we can whip her, doesn't. 25 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:43.239 She It's getting hotter and hotter outside I. 26 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:45.879 Regrets, my dear, that we're obliged to keep our clothes on, 27 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:49.640 but in our roles you understand it's indispensable. 28 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.480 To you especially Yes, don't you ever get too hot? 29 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:53.120 No? 30 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:54.480 Never. 31 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.239 Welcome to the projection booth. I'm your host, Mike White. 32 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.239 To have me once again is Miss Heather Draine. 33 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:08.240 Hello. Hello. 34 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.159 Also back in the booth is Miss Jessica Shires. 35 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:11.960 Hello. 36 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:15.400 This week we are sticking to the year nineteen seventy 37 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.439 five with a look at Radley Metzger's The Image, Based 38 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.800 on a book by Catherine Robe Grillay, writing as Jean 39 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:25.400 de Bergh, the film stars Carl Parker as Jean, the 40 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:29.360 author of the piece, Marilyn Roberts as his estranged friend Claire, 41 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:33.039 and Mary Mindham as Anne, who loaned her name to 42 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:36.080 one of the other titles of this film, The Punishment 43 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.520 of Anne. Meanwhile, I first saw this as the Mistress 44 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:42.240 and the Slave. If that's a hint to what this 45 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.319 film is all about, we will be discussing that and 46 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.599 spoiling the plot as it were as we go along. 47 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:50.800 So if you don't anything, please turn off the podcast 48 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.199 and come back after you've seen the image. We will 49 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:56.080 still be here. So, Heather, when was the first time 50 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:57.960 you saw this film and what did you think. 51 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:02.080 It's been several years now at this point, of course, 52 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.800 I first got hooked on Radley Metzker via Camil two 53 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:09.639 thousand and the Lakriage Quartet, and it was love at 54 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:11.319 first sight. So I was like, this is a guy. 55 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:13.400 I have to see as many of his films as 56 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:16.879 I can. The image, of course, was one that for 57 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:18.800 you know, back in the day, was a little harder 58 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:23.919 to find, like uncensored a spoiler their BP, So for 59 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:25.800 a long time it was a huge tabbyer. I mean 60 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:27.919 even in like hard like straight up, I mean this 61 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:31.800 film is kind of hardcore. It's hardcore ish hardcore esque, 62 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:34.719 but full on hardcore films, Like for a long time 63 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:37.879 you couldn't get on censored versions of Barbara Broadcast, which 64 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:40.400 is one of my favorite Henry Pairis films, which was 65 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:45.159 Radley's nom de porn, probably a half of Anny Sprinkle's catalog. 66 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:46.400 Thus the name. 67 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.919 Yes, I love Annie, we love her. She's a goddess. 68 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.319 And it did not disappoint. And it's definitely as somebody 69 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.599 who first saw Rebecca Brooke, I always think of her 70 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:58.800 as Rebecca Brooke, Mary vindem She's Rebecca Brooke and all 71 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.360 of pretty much almost all softcore films which I saw 72 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:03.960 now and that's where I first saw her. But I 73 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:07.719 think she's absolute Dyeda mite hear. I'm looking forward to 74 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:09.800 getting it kind of into the meat of matter. 75 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.280 With you two and Jessica, how about yourself? 76 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:13.960 I too, am a. 77 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:18.120 Huge Radley Metzger fan. Similarly to Heather. I saw things 78 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:20.959 like Camille two thousand and Liquors, Corse Hat and fell 79 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.040 totally in love with his work and set out to 80 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:24.279 find just about everything. 81 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:24.639 I think. 82 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:26.680 I think around the time that I got into Metzger 83 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.240 was when like some of the stuff was starting to 84 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.120 appear on DVD, so like cult epics, I think put 85 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:33.759 out a few different editions of like sort of the 86 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:37.360 late sixties early seventies Metzger catalog, and I was when 87 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:40.920 I discovered Score, and I think Blue Underground put this 88 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:45.240 one out at first before the lush Melousine edition that 89 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.600 just came out the most incredible packaging I think I've 90 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:50.839 ever seen. As I mentioned in the previous episode on 91 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:53.000 Story of Oh, I came to Story of Oh first 92 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:55.040 through the book, and then I realized it was a 93 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:56.920 movie of it much later, But in this case, I 94 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.800 didn't know about the novel until well after I think 95 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:01.439 I the film and I was like, oh, this is 96 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.240 based on a book, Like, I've got to check this out, 97 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:06.399 and then I'm sure we'll get to like a whole 98 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:09.839 world of not just the novel, but the real people 99 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:13.199 surrounding the novel just kind of opened up and the 100 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:15.600 whole thing is so interesting to me, which is why 101 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:16.600 I wanted to talk about it. 102 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:19.360 Like I mentioned before, I think I saw this first 103 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:23.319 as The Mistress and the Sleeve, which was a Something 104 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.879 Weird release from I don't know how long ago it 105 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:32.399 was VHS, and the quality it's tough for me to 106 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:35.680 even use the word quality of it because it looked awful. 107 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:38.319 I love something weird, and I'd love that they go 108 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.759 above and beyond trying to give us films that we 109 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:43.000 can't see anyplace else. And like you said, Heather, this 110 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.399 was tough to find for a while, so I saw 111 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:49.759 it first under this title and I just remember the 112 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.959 video quality just being really tough to even make out 113 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.720 what was going on. But I was really intrigued by 114 00:05:56.759 --> 00:05:59.879 this movie. I thought for the longest time that this 115 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:02.360 was this is going to sound weird. I thought this 116 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:07.079 was European film, not that it's shot in Paris, I 117 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.439 see the Eiffel Tower, but the way that everybody is 118 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:15.480 dubbed all ADR, it just feels very much like these 119 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:20.160 are not American actors that are being dubbed posts later 120 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:23.279 on by somebody else. But no, these are the real deal. 121 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:27.000 So I guess it's just the ADR and probably having 122 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.040 to shoot this thing silent and then bring in everybody 123 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.959 later on. Also, the voiceover of our main character adds 124 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.560 to that as well, just with his very voice of 125 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.920 God that he has. I'm so excited to talk about 126 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:43.480 this in comparison with Story of Oh. We talked last 127 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.680 week as far as it being a woman voiceover, and 128 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.000 here we have the male voiceover, the male author of 129 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.519 the story, even though it's not a man who is 130 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.920 the author of the story, but also someone going under 131 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:59.920 a pseudonym. So I love the comparisons of these two 132 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:05.079 movies and just how different everything is. The lushness of 133 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:08.800 this story, the how beautiful this looks, I mean now 134 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:12.040 seeing this on Blu Ray compared to that shitty VHS 135 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.000 that I saw those years ago. It's night and day 136 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:16.800 this doesn't even look like the same movie. 137 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.240 Yeah, And I think you mentioned kind of a European 138 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.759 feel about the film. I think I think that comes across, 139 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.399 even in a bad version. I think I think that's 140 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:28.839 just part of Metzger's style. I just think he I 141 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:30.759 think a lot of people are kind of I mean, yeah, 142 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:32.800 he has an American name, but you know, I think 143 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.160 he I think if you're just see his films, I 144 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:36.800 think a lot of like sort of critically, you know, 145 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:38.600 he gets lumped in with you know, a lot of 146 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.240 the European exploitation directors, like you know, you know, Jean Rolan, 147 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.480 just Franco. You know, he's in this spoken about in 148 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:48.800 the canon that's discussed in the Immoral Tales book that 149 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:50.680 came out in the nineties. So he's kind of seen 150 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.639 as part of that sort of European exploitation canon. And 151 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.079 I think he shot a lot in Europe, like, you know, similarly, 152 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:59.600 like Score I shot in Europe and Camille two thousand 153 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:02.240 is shot. And I think I think you play such 154 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:05.480 importance on like incredibly you know, even on a short budget, 155 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:08.720 you know, an incredibly lush visuals, Like I think that 156 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.360 was really important to him as like an aesthetic choice 157 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:12.240 when it can. 158 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:14.519 Make a really good argument that Radley Metzker maybe the 159 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:20.040 most European American director, like we've ever added Eddie genre. 160 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.319 All of his films, I mean even even some of 161 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:27.360 the really like the lesser ones like Marishina Cherry still 162 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:31.519 has just that same about it, like his attention to detail, 163 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:35.759 his use of mirrors, and pretty much in everything that 164 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:38.759 he makes. And here we you know, write down to 165 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:41.440 you know, talk about the image. It's all the images 166 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.759 and the reflection. And also with that, you know, are 167 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:47.840 you really seeing the real person? Are you just seeing 168 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:49.960 the reflection? And I feel like that kind of thing 169 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.679 comes up a lot in his films. The way it 170 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.559 opens really made me think of the opening of Camille 171 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:59.720 two thousand. It's just got that great, wide European shot. 172 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:02.559 The use of music, it always blows my mind how 173 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.360 much like library music Radley used, because he used it 174 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:10.879 so exquisitely. And also at one point the music and 175 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:14.519 this film sound like psych rock. It gets really intense, 176 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.080 which I love. But it's just the way everything's kind 177 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:18.759 of blue and there's almost just sort of this like 178 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.120 melancholy to me, almost there's like a beauty tinge with 179 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:25.080 that which he does so well. That's one of my 180 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.080 favorite things about Radley. It's not in all of his 181 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:30.399 films like Marbart Broadcast is maybe my second favorite film 182 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.559 of all times of his and that film is light 183 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.279 as a feather, but that this one, I feel has 184 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:38.919 a similar open. It's a very different film obviously than Camille, 185 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.519 but I love how he always has those connective tissue 186 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:43.080 going on. 187 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:46.960 Rob King and his new book about Radley Metzger, you know, 188 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:51.120 talks about the various identities of Henry Paris Radley Metzker 189 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:53.600 and how they're they're despite the fact that he used 190 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:55.799 different names, it's still, you know, it's still there's still 191 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:57.720 a unifying body to his work. And you know, even 192 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:01.159 though some of the hardcore movies were more comedic in nature, 193 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.399 and the sort of softcore movies we're a little more 194 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:07.519 melancholic in nature. Like still there's you can't really separate 195 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:09.480 the two. It's like his body of work is just 196 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:14.559 so singularly unified despite different approaches that he uses. 197 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:18.720 Now I have read the Book of the Image, and 198 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:23.759 I don't know what the provedance of the translation is, 199 00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:26.120 but I will say that both in the book and 200 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:29.639 in the movie, we are not shying away from harsh 201 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:32.200 language like we did with Story of Oh. There's no 202 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:37.360 back passage. There's very frank language that's used in this. 203 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:42.039 Even though the book itself is only about what forty 204 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:47.000 five pages or so, it is great and this is 205 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.840 much more my speed when we look at Story of Oh, 206 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:52.440 when we look at this, this is definitely where I'm 207 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.559 coming from. And I love how faithful to so much 208 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:00.559 of the book Metskriz. I mean, it's almost almost treating 209 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:05.039 it like a screenplay. It is so similar in the language, 210 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:08.120 so similar in the scenes, even some of the more 211 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.159 cringe lines like is my little girl going to do 212 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.679 a ppe? Like those kind of things, but it's right 213 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:17.080 there in the book. I was reading that again last night. 214 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.440 I was like, Okay, yeah, I just want to verify 215 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:21.759 that this one line is here, and sure enough, and 216 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.039 there's a little bit of difference at the end, and 217 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:25.879 I'm sure that we'll talk about that, but I was 218 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:29.320 just really impressed by how faithful he was to this story. 219 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:34.639 Yeah, incredibly faithful, Like right down to the title cards 220 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:37.679 that you see. It's it's not only like the exact 221 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:40.799 same title cards. The divides up the film the way 222 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:42.759 it does the book, but it's also in the same 223 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:44.360 font like, you know, if you look at the the 224 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.960 I'm speaking specifically about the English translation here the Growth Press, 225 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:50.759 like it's in the same type face with the sort 226 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:55.279 of you know box around it. Like he was very yeah, 227 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.840 like incredibly faithful to the book with some you know, 228 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:03.440 sort of small and also very interesting diversions. But yeah, 229 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:04.279 I agree. 230 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:06.879 He does some interesting things though when it comes to, 231 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.360 you know, the use of visuals obviously something that we 232 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:12.879 don't get with the book. So things like the after 233 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:17.639 the urination scene when he is our main character, Jean 234 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.399 is parked by a fountain, which I believe we see 235 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:21.480 the fountain beforehand. 236 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:23.480 Let's get into the fountain, and. 237 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:26.240 We have all of that, and I thought that was 238 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.399 great to have the fountain imagery. And not only do 239 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:31.519 we have the one piece scene, but that is the 240 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:34.480 flashback of all flashbacks that we keep coming back to 241 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.159 throughout this whole thing, and I love that. It's just 242 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:41.799 such a great degrading moment for Anne. We don't really 243 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.519 get a whole lot of Anne's inner thoughts. It is 244 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:48.559 so much you know, Jean, he's telling us his version, 245 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.919 but the actress that plays hand. She is great when 246 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.919 it comes to letting us know what she's thinking through 247 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:57.440 her expressions, because she doesn't get a whole lot of 248 00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:58.399 dialogue in this. 249 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:03.000 Film, and to me is almost like a sylph. She's 250 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:05.559 almost like a like a like almost just like a 251 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.360 phantom of a woman and part of it at times 252 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.360 because she's given so little autonomy. I mean, but I 253 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:15.480 love this performance because there are moments so where we 254 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:17.960 do get that little flash like my one of my 255 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:20.960 absolute favorite parts in the whole movie is when you know, 256 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.240 after she you know, she runs into Jean on the street, 257 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.600 well he runs into her, and she's totally brued to him, 258 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:28.559 which I love. I don't know if I need to 259 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:32.039 go ahead, I'll save my gen rant maybe for a minute. 260 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.080 But she's totally rude to him and rightfullyes though. And 261 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.960 but then of course he snitches because you know, if 262 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:39.559 he was in prison, he would get stitches. 263 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:42.919 So noticed about that scene actually is on her clothing, 264 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.120 and so not only is her personality completely changed, but 265 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.440 she's dressed totally differently from how you see her in 266 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.080 the rest of the film, which is very like little 267 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:53.080 girl like you know, skirts and like gingham blouses and 268 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.039 very feminine, very little girl. But like in the Buchaneste scene, 269 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.799 she's wearing like, you know, very like contemporary in these clothes, 270 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:04.159 and she's she's you know, very like you know, self confident, 271 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.399 and you know, she's just you know, John and John 272 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.039 just like rocks up to her and she's just. 273 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.120 Like what do you want? 274 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.679 You know, like, and I just like, yeah, I absolutely 275 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:13.639 love that. I think I think she is great in 276 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:15.679 this and I think I think she has those moments 277 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:18.320 and you know, again, we'll talk about them in later scenes, 278 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.799 you know what. I And and in a way similarly 279 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.240 similar to corn, Clery's performance is oh, I think she 280 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.279 is able to do a lot with facial expression, and 281 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:29.480 so she's not just this blank cipher like all the 282 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:31.399 way through the film. She's not a robot. You know, 283 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:34.600 she very you know, there's scenes where you know, she 284 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.519 has this sort of wry smile and I think, you know, 285 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.440 there are scenes where she's blank faced, but I think 286 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.480 it's it's there are moments where it's very intentional that 287 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.159 she's meant to sort of not be reacting. I think 288 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:46.919 she gives a great performance. I think that I think 289 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:51.279 I think both Marilyn Roberts and and Mary Mendeman. We'll 290 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:54.919 you know, save Carl Parker for later. I think the 291 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.320 two women give really incredible and incredibly strong performance. I 292 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.960 think Radley was so great casting women. I just think 293 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:03.879 Mary Mendem was his girlfriend at the time, so I 294 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.679 mean there's you know, partially like you know, she was 295 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:08.759 his girlfriend, so that's kind of probably why she got 296 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:10.360 the role in some way. But she's she's I think 297 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:11.639 she's very well cast in this. 298 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.960 Oh god, she's Dyna my now. And when the scene 299 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:18.279 where Claire tells her to go grab a whip, and 300 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.759 the way that she kind of looks at herself in 301 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:22.759 the reflection bol of these apparatus and she does almost 302 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:25.080 like a little dance almost you can see this little 303 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:29.440 fire smile. Yeah, crawls across her face, and it's so 304 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.639 I love her performance so much. And yeah, like the 305 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:35.720 moments where she is just kind of like tuning out, 306 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:38.080 it's it's to me. It's almost like she's like, well, 307 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:39.960 this is what I got to do to please the 308 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.399 one person I actually give a shit about. Carl is 309 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:47.320 just like a means to an end. He is not 310 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.759 He's not a full person. To her, nor should he be. 311 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:55.320 But I need to write Carl Jean. I'm sure Carl 312 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.320 Parker the actor is lovely, sorry, sir. And similarly to 313 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.080 those scenes we were talking about, she sees herself and 314 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.639 the reflection of the sort of cabinet with the whips 315 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:05.480 and the chains and stuff like that, there's like she 316 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.399 goes back twice. This is the scene in the apartment 317 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.919 where like kind of Clara's showing Jean the photographs and stuff, 318 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.720 and this is the first semises and you know, punished, 319 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:17.840 and the second time when she goes back to get 320 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:18.440 the chains. 321 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:21.159 She goes back to this cabinet twice. And there's this 322 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:23.879 great scene and it's not really in the book in 323 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:27.279 any way, so it's completely an invention of Metzicer. She 324 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.840 turns to the camera and she says something like, forgive me, 325 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:33.279 I know what I do, and then she walked back 326 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:35.799 and I just loved that. I just thought that was 327 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:37.279 so great, loved it. 328 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.600 She's a great actress in the Sarno films. I'm not 329 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.399 the biggest fan of Joe Sarno. I respect him, I 330 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:47.360 respect his work. He's a little too soap opera for me, 331 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:50.360 a little bit even when he's like delving with taboos subjects, 332 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.879 it's still just like, I don't know, it doesn't connects 333 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.120 for me like it does when somebody like say Cecil Howard, yeah, 334 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:00.120 delves into those subjects, or Radley or yeah, Domiano. But 335 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.360 she's great, and I just I think this is definitely 336 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.599 her in the and Claire factress that plays Claire maryl 337 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.519 Robins or is so she's such a strong Marylyn Roberts 338 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:14.400 just has a strong physicality about her and intensity, And yeah, 339 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:18.279 Radley loved women. I actually years ago, I was I 340 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:20.079 was working on a project that never quite came to 341 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:25.200 fruition for other reasons, for assertive reasons. But with Eric Edwards, 342 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.839 and he you know, lovely man. He's a sweetheart. But 343 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.920 he of course was in private afternoons of Pamela Man 344 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:34.640 and he had a complaint because of course I was like, 345 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:36.400 oh my god, you got to work with Radley Metzger. 346 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.279 I'm fan girling of course, and he liked Raley, but 347 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:42.359 he honestly he felt neglected because he's like Radley wasn't 348 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.519 really interested in directing the men. Some of that might 349 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:49.000 be actor ego. Actors are very sensitive people, but as 350 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:51.359 we all are artists. We are sensitive as shit. That's 351 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.440 what we do. There are a few directors I think 352 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.839 love women as much as Radley Metzger does in a 353 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:01.880 way that never feels like objectifying, ever feels gross like. 354 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.400 It feels very much like an artist. I always admired 355 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.480 that about about Radley, and even when he's stilling with 356 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.319 kind of tough topics. I mean, this film it is 357 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.279 erotica technically. I feel like they are parts of it, 358 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.480 especially get to the climax. It's almost like it turns 359 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.640 almost into quite like a horror movie. It seems to 360 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.720 be a lot more for me about this is more 361 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:27.319 about an unhealthy dynamic and a healthy relationship. You know, 362 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.519 there's like going kind of beyond the borders of just 363 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:34.480 like traditional SNM, which you know BDSM could normally from 364 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.440 I understanding, has like set rules, like you follow the 365 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:39.920 rules that keeps everything in line, buttoned up, but it 366 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.279 keeps also everybody safe. 367 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.079 When you're navigating the complex world a BDSM, you want 368 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.559 to do so safely and choosing the right framework for 369 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.119 your practice is crucial, but it can be confusing. In 370 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:56.599 this episode, we're diving deep into sse Rack and Prick 371 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.559 so which one of these acronyms is right for you? Well, 372 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.039 let's break down each protocol to find out. 373 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.640 Just to jump to that last scene, I mean, it's 374 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.720 very it's a very boundary pushing scene, I think even now, 375 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.640 I mean you know, I mean yeah, I mean yeah, 376 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:10.880 some people were very jaded. We'll look at this and 377 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:12.720 say like, oh, yeah, that's tame. But I mean if 378 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:14.920 you really think about it, like you know, just this 379 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.480 this gothic chamber scene, it's really intense. 380 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:18.720 And again I think. 381 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.039 It's it's largely due to Marry's you know, sort of 382 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.599 ability to like you know, show this character and like 383 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.440 you know, in distress and in pain, and like it's 384 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:32.000 really I think it's really visceral, and there is a 385 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.279 like a discomfort kind of level of watching it of 386 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.920 like going wow, really, I mean it's this you know, 387 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.440 this chandelier that just pulls her up, and I think 388 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.319 that's the horror movie feel of it. And again it's 389 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.880 like gothic chamber, which also you see in story of Oh, 390 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:44.960 like you know, it's again returning to this theme of 391 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.880 that there is like a sort of horrifying element to it, 392 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:49.599 like a torture chamber element. 393 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:49.960 To it. 394 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.680 I connect with this material so much more, especially in 395 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.240 that scene where it feels like she is really she 396 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.480 being Anne is really pushing herself because you want to 397 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.839 take as much as you possibly can for the person 398 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:06.880 that you want to serve. And the way that she 399 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:10.279 will hold up her arms to signal kind of like okay, 400 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:14.000 I'm ready now for it to continue. I really like 401 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.240 that because it's just this kind of signal to her 402 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.559 mistress that Okay, it's good. Now I can take more 403 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:22.599 of this. I really want to please you. So that's 404 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.799 how I was reading all that stuff. When it comes 405 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.880 to the movie overall and the story overall, I mean, 406 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.119 I'm curious what y'all think as far as the title 407 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.480 of the image and where that comes into things. 408 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.359 There's not a ton of criticism that I've been able 409 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.119 to find about this, but there's some I found some 410 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.559 you know, sort of literary and again, as I mentioned 411 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.319 in the story ofout episode, the image is referred to 412 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.960 and Susan Sontag's essay about pornography, from what I've read 413 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.480 about in the analysis of the novel, is basically that 414 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:59.200 you know, Anne and Claire are images of each other 415 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.799 or an as an image of Claire that she's projecting, 416 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.920 and and the and again it goes, it goes a 417 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.200 little bit back to the sort of the motif of photography, 418 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.920 because you know, she invites Jean over to show him 419 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.039 these photographs that she's taken of of Anne, and you know, 420 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:17.640 then of course there's that one last photo that's sort 421 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.359 of clearly not Anne, and you know, he kind of knows, 422 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.319 and she kind of knows he knows, and she seems 423 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.200 uncomfortable for the first time because she has this like 424 00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:27.640 very like sort of perfect facade. And then Jean talks 425 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:29.519 about the fact that like part of the reason why 426 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:31.559 like he finds her beautiful, but part of the reason 427 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.759 why he feels like he can never initially he's not 428 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.200 attracted to her, or he can't initiate any kind of 429 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.799 romantic relationship with her, is because she has no she 430 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:45.759 doesn't have that vulnerability that he desires. Again, so we 431 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:47.559 go to we get the image, we get again emp 432 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:50.440 photography also story of Oh, like this is a kind 433 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.359 of an interesting theme that unites the two because Ah 434 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.200 is a photographer, Claire is a photographer, and so like 435 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.759 there's this this this literal image of like these photographs 436 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.480 and and how it relates to identity. But I think 437 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:06.200 more metaphorically, Anne is the image of Claire that she 438 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.480 uses to sort of trage on to be the kind 439 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:14.240 of man that she wants and to bring him to her. 440 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.720 That's That's kind of what I've gotten out of it 441 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.960 in terms of like how what the title means before I. 442 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.599 Go into my take, though I have to Mike think 443 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:26.960 about it being hotter. I totally get that, and this 444 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:28.680 may be I don't know if this is a hot take. 445 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.720 It's certainly not meant as one. From my end. I'm 446 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:35.880 at the biggest fan of just It's Jakin, just chuck 447 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:38.400 in Jacked. Yeah, yeah, say it, Frank. 448 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:39.000 What you mean? 449 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:42.279 Yes, yes, yes. Jessica says it much better than I do. 450 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:43.920 Way better than me, because I'm going to make it 451 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.759 sound like just Jacket, and that's terrible. I think he's 452 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.640 a beautiful he knows how to make sup with beautiful. 453 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.559 I think, as as vim maker, all of his films 454 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.319 look gorgeous. I find that. For me, I don't find 455 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.319 a lot of substance in any of his films. I 456 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.160 kind of, you know, prefer almost something like Gwendolyn and 457 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:02.960 his filmography, which is just called total fantasy because I 458 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.960 feel like that lends itself well. Whenever he tries to 459 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:09.119 get philosophical or deep in his films, it just doesn't. 460 00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:12.400 It doesn't connect with me. It's everything's individual subjective. I 461 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.240 don't find these films hot because I feel like it's me. 462 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.759 It's almost like clicking Matt Quite, he's better than Playboy, 463 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:19.400 but it's almost like that where it's like, yeah, these 464 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.440 are beautiful naked people and I'm not getting any heat. 465 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:25.240 I'm not getting any heat. I'm not getting any depth. 466 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:25.839 You know. 467 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:28.759 Yeah, I think Radley has a much more sort of 468 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.920 personal connection to his films, like they feel much more 469 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.240 like and that's nothing to say. I mean, I'm I'm 470 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:37.240 actually a huge fan of just Chuckhan, so I'm not 471 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:39.920 this is not done it total total work at all 472 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:43.920 because I I feel I can personally feel that like 473 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:46.839 Radley invests a lot, and that maybe because he sort of, 474 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.319 you know, he didn't big have as big of budgets 475 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:51.640 as someone likes just Chokanad. You know, he had like 476 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.880 smaller budgets and it's probably smaller crews and work with 477 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:56.640 people that he knew, you know, relatively well for the 478 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.960 most part, and you know, it was probably more of 479 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.920 a like a tight knit situation. And I just think 480 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:04.880 he personally invested a lot more personally in his films, 481 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:08.000 and that's I think that's visible, but just my opinion. 482 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:13.279 Radley knows how to have something cook in the atmosphere, 483 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:15.160 he knows how to frame something, he knows how to 484 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.160 edit it tightly where you're building that tension. Like that 485 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.200 scene of Barbara Broadcast between C. J. Lang and Wade Parker. 486 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:24.680 That's one of the hottest scenes period in film history. 487 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.359 Oh my god, I'm like, whoa, It's like total vapor 488 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.559 inducing and so Mike to your point, I told I 489 00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:34.640 do get that, and and that scene in particular, I 490 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.559 think the mid scene where she's getting punished by Claire, 491 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:40.720 that one I think is the hottest personally and that film, 492 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.640 because I do she seems the most into it, where 493 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:46.000 there are other parts where I'm just like anytime I 494 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.039 think when John just gets involved, I'm like, he gets 495 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:50.920 too involved. I just start getting gross. He's a little 496 00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:54.440 too He's forceful in a way that I don't think 497 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.960 is appropriate, and especially with food. I'll get into that. 498 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:01.440 I'll say that your question. The d which Clear and 499 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:05.480 Jean are using each other, and they're using Anne in 500 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:09.119 a way that's not really truthful for anybody. Everybody's just 501 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.599 a focus on the image of Anne. Anne is an image. 502 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.279 She's not a person, and especially to Jean, I think 503 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:18.400 Clear and her there is that there are little we get, 504 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:20.960 little glimpses of tenderness. One of my few complaints of 505 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.599 the film, I kind of hell, I probably would upset 506 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.119 the dynamic, but I almost kind of wish we got 507 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.480 a little more of her and Claire because the little 508 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:30.279 hints we get, especially when you know the ending happens 509 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:33.759 in Anne leaves, there's set tenderness, and I'm like, I 510 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.480 kind of love that because I feel like you see 511 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:40.279 more of that in other sort of SNM films and 512 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:43.759 scenarios and literature where there's that, you know, there's the punishment, 513 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:44.640 that there's the reward. 514 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.480 Yeah, that's a great scene, and it's that scene is 515 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:50.839 actually not in the book. Oh wow, that scene, the 516 00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:54.880 scene in the Gothic Chamber ends with you know, Jean 517 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.359 having sex with Anne and then it just it ends 518 00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:01.680 and that's it moves on to the last chapter. So 519 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:05.440 to just describe the scene to anyone listening. So basically 520 00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:10.359 what happens is Jean gets up and Claire is infuriated 521 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.920 and begins to whip him herself and just you know, 522 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:15.640 cursing at him and just you know, just telling him off, 523 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.599 presumably because you know, there's like a jealousy aspect there. 524 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.440 You know, she's a little bit or it's ambiguous a 525 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:22.319 little bit. I mean you could you could interpret it 526 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:24.240 at least at that point in the film as being 527 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:28.599 like either she's she's jealous or you know, she feels 528 00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:32.720 like he's taken too many liberties with her slave, I guess. 529 00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:33.960 So she whips him. 530 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.559 John kind of starts to fight back, and then Anne 531 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:40.359 grabs a champagne bottle and you know breaks it over Jean, 532 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:42.920 and then you know he kind of just is like 533 00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:45.400 you know, what the fuck and like runs And then 534 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:47.880 there's that beautiful moment where there's you've got like the 535 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:50.720 iron bars, and like Anna is on one side and 536 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.279 Claire is on the other, and they look at each 537 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:57.039 other like really tenderly, and they kind of touch hands, 538 00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.200 I think at some point, and like Anne says something 539 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.480 like and I'm leaving, and Claire says, what will I do. 540 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:03.359 What do I do? 541 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.000 It's just so wonderful. Like I said, it's not in 542 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:08.440 the book, but it's just it's I just think it shows. 543 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.759 I think it shows how much Bradley understood the text really, 544 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:14.200 Like it's just a really nice addition. It's a nicer 545 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.000 I think it flows nicer into the following scene and 546 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.279 it kind of makes you wonder. I personally want to 547 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.319 be like, Where's Anne going? Because I have sort of 548 00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:24.079 had this like like sort of thought, and especially after 549 00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.000 talking so much about the story about that, like kind 550 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:28.039 of like was Anne trained at Huasci? 551 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:28.559 You know? 552 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:30.799 Did you go through this like like just some of 553 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.000 the Oh, it's because there's a line, Uh, there's a 554 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.599 line where Claire says something like it's all it's all 555 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:38.680 down to training, you know, or something like that, and 556 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:41.039 I'm thinking, like, oh, what if Anne is a you know, 557 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:44.799 what if Anne is a disciple of GISSI And like 558 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:46.839 when I do the same training as Oh, it's a like, 559 00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:49.839 you know, just my own kind of like sort of 560 00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.480 like what if. Yeah, it's a great scene. 561 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.960 I love that scene in the park with the urination scene, 562 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.039 just because of the way that Claire is dressed and 563 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.839 that she looks like a complete ice queen with the 564 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:06.200 you know, the white pants that she wears pants, whereas 565 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.759 annaz I was wearing skirts. And then she's got that 566 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:13.000 long white coat and the white white hair, and then 567 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:15.599 those great seventies glasses. 568 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:18.400 I love those sunglasses so much. 569 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.400 Looks like they're blue blockers, you know, from the nineties. 570 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:23.119 So my name is geek. 571 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:25.039 I put them as a shocker, man. 572 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:28.000 I love these blue blockers. Everything is clear. 573 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:31.200 They block out the s Oh yeah, I gotta get mess. 574 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:33.960 That was great. I love her out I love all 575 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:36.400 their outfits, but I love her outfits especially. There's one 576 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.440 where it's like kind of like a shirt dress almost, 577 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.119 and she's wearing these brown leather. 578 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:45.039 Oh yeah, the like thigh high boots with the like 579 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.200 mini dress, like oh it. 580 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.640 The thing especially for me is the zipper with the 581 00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:53.039 little circle at the end of the zipper. I'm just like, oh, 582 00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:56.079 that's so nice. It so reminds me of like, I 583 00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:58.920 don't know, like a Valure shirt that you might have 584 00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:00.000 worn back in the seventies. 585 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:04.240 The whole thing with the rose garden too. Did anybody 586 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.359 else kind of think a little bit, And I mean 587 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.440 they're unrelated, but I love it when you have like 588 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.880 sort of similar imagery and art is the whole thing 589 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:15.720 with the rose kind of maybe think of the rose 590 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:19.839 coming up and the beast like Baro Chicks Levet, because God, 591 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.000 both of those guys just total titans of knowing how 592 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:27.240 to frame an image that just makes it completely unforgettable 593 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:28.480 and just mesmerizing. 594 00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:31.759 We were just talking about barov Check last week, which 595 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.799 was funny because we were talking about the private collection 596 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.599 that he and Just Chicken and Terryama did. 597 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.720 We referred to your article about Fruits of Fashion. How 598 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:45.319 they excited. 599 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.039 Oh my god, I love Yeah, don't even get me started. 600 00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:50.759 I love love that film so much. 601 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.759 But I was just gonna say about the rose and 602 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:55.559 the iconography is like, there's a great line which is 603 00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.279 also in the book, which is you know, he when 604 00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:00.640 Anne has her skirt pulled up and and Claire is 605 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.640 kind of like adjusting the rose in her garter and 606 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:05.559 she says like, you know, says something like you know. 607 00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:08.559 Tajean like, oh, it's you know, isn't it? Isn't it beautiful? 608 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:10.119 I wish we could take a photograph of it. He 609 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.000 says something like, yes, it's nice, but it's overburdened with 610 00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:15.759 symbols in the surrealist tradition. I thought that was a 611 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.640 hilarious line, and it's and then like check back in 612 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:21.279 the book. It's actually like verbatim in the book. So 613 00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:23.119 you can think of like almost like I don't know, 614 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:27.240 something like Matisse or God, I mean so many of 615 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:29.880 the Surrealists And yeah, I mean, yeah, you can see 616 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:31.799 that for sure. But I just think the lion itself 617 00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:33.079 is absolutely hilarious. 618 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:35.279 Yeah, next thing you're gonna do is put an apple 619 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:36.279 in front of a guy's face. 620 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:39.920 Come on, Jean, he's the water bug. He is my 621 00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:42.720 the water bug for me in this movie. And I 622 00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:45.920 don't know if part of it is because I kept 623 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.160 thinking if it was a different actor. And I mean 624 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:51.799 Carl Parker, he is in score and I liked him. 625 00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:54.000 I mean, he's a telephone guys, and it probably fory 626 00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:56.880 what five minutes, ten minutes, but he's great in score. 627 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.920 I liked him, no problem with score. He looks great, 628 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.160 he has a great look about him. He's physically attractive. Man. 629 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:06.079 I kept trying to recast Jehan in my head, and 630 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:08.799 like would I would this character hit me better if 631 00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:12.519 it was somebody say like John Leslie, something like classic 632 00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:16.559 adult guys, somebody who can play a cad, who is 633 00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.000 you know, who was still culture, who was good looking, 634 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.200 who can has a dar has a dark edge to him, 635 00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:24.680 but you're still sort of magnetized to him. 636 00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:29.079 Yeah, even dubbed, he is still incredibly wooden, even though 637 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:30.960 we know it's not his voice, it's not you know, 638 00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:32.799 it's just I think it was some interview I read 639 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.640 where you know Radley Metzger, you know, because basically like 640 00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:38.119 he found Carl Parker because he was like in a 641 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:39.960 cigarette out or something like that, Like he was in 642 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:43.240 this very successful series of cigarette ads, and that's how 643 00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:44.400 he initially found him. 644 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:46.000 And he was just like yeah, it's like his acting 645 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:46.640 is totally. 646 00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:48.759 Wouldn't but he looks great, you know, so like that 647 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:49.839 was why he hired him. 648 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:54.279 He does have that chin man he was he's yeah, 649 00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:57.960 tactically good looking, but it's it's it's just like anytime 650 00:31:58.039 --> 00:32:03.119 like he got an were sexual with poor Anne, I 651 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:04.200 just resented him. 652 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.720 I'm like, he doesn't deserve this woman, and he does 653 00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:11.160 not deserve her. And then especially like the way he 654 00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:15.799 forces her head down with the first oral copulation moment, 655 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:17.519 Like I don't know why I'm saying it like that, 656 00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:20.240 but uh, I try to be a lady and I fail. 657 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.119 I know, I didn't like the way he did that. 658 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.359 I was like, I don't like the way he's handling her. 659 00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:26.799 One of the restaurants scenes where they're just he's just 660 00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:32.759 willy Nelly stuffing food inside her is literally makes me cringe. Okay, 661 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.480 first of all, anybody listening, this is your psa. The 662 00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:39.599 vagina is not a horne of plenty. The vagina is 663 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.440 not a deli tray. Okay, it needs a pH balance. 664 00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:46.920 You have to respect the pH balance. Okay, you're gonna 665 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:51.359 upset it by putting fucking caviar. He puts caviar inside her. 666 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.240 I'm sorry, Mike, you and I have talked about water power. 667 00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.759 I was less upset by the enemas than that than 668 00:32:56.839 --> 00:32:59.799 I was by him putting olives. It's not a martini, 669 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:03.960 that's a woman's vachina. Respect it. You shouldn't even be 670 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.720 allowed to touch it. You don't deserve it. 671 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.440 I totally agree other but I'm gonna guess the best. 672 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:12.319 Like some kind of Battai reference, like story of the 673 00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:17.160 eye round putting inserting round objects, that's just my guess, 674 00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:18.599 but yeah, it's still gross. 675 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.960 It's grow and I think it's a tim it's because 676 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.519 I've seen people do that in other films, and I 677 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:24.599 still think it's a little like real life. You know, 678 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.480 Please people take care of your orifices. They love you, 679 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:28.519 love them back. 680 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:31.440 I think it was all for the punchline, right, I. 681 00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:33.319 Know, but that doesn't make it better if they could 682 00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.400 have picked better food, like a grape or something. At least, 683 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:39.519 you know, a cherry, not a fucking olive. 684 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:40.200 Ew. 685 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.559 I think a cherry tomato too, if I recall correctly, 686 00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:48.039 there's like an olive and yeah, is there some mazzarella cheese? 687 00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:53.039 Keep that pussy vegan. Do not be putting dairy products 688 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:57.519 at China, Okay, treat it like a natural food store. 689 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.119 I know it was some punchline. It's he's not selling. 690 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:04.599 He doesn't sell it for me, and I just cringed. 691 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:08.360 I like, it's her and Claire I'm fine with. I'm like, yes, 692 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:11.480 I'm I'm You've got my attention, and it's not one 693 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.400 of those things where it's you know, because some people 694 00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:15.000 might be listening to be like, oh well, maybe she 695 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:18.239 just has a problem with the SNM or strong males. Listen, 696 00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:20.880 you too, know me, I love a lot of films 697 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:23.599 that are that have probably gotten me canceled in some circles. 698 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.679 And that's okay. He's really miscast and he I mean, 699 00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:29.159 he looks great. I think the cigarette where the cigarette 700 00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:33.599 adds silva cigarettes like s I l V A. I 701 00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:35.039 don't why they just came to mind. It's like a 702 00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:36.280 brand you don't really see now. 703 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:40.039 Yeah, I can't remember, but it has a great tagline, 704 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:43.639 a great, horrible misogynistic tagline, which is like cigarettes should 705 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:45.199 be like women, rich and thin. 706 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.880 God, he's the worst. He's not even shot in the ads, 707 00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.840 and I'm like, God, you suck so hard, why are 708 00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.159 you so terrible? At least the story of Always got 709 00:34:58.280 --> 00:34:59.039 udo kir. 710 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:01.880 Well, And last week we talked about the story of 711 00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:05.880 Joanna and can you imagine if it was Jamie Gillis. 712 00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.960 And this, God, I thought about that, Jamie, Oh my, yeah, 713 00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:14.480 that would be I know, to quote quote the great 714 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:16.719 Laura Helen Marx, we'd all be having a case of 715 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:17.360 the gillies. 716 00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:21.320 Because when you get the willies and they're kind of good, 717 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.719 you like it, but you're also a little terrified. And 718 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.320 that's the Jamie Gillis experience, and we're all down for 719 00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:30.960 it within reason. But yeah, no, that's That's the thing 720 00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:33.960 is Radley has had some great male actors though so 721 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.199 much as we talked about how he and he does 722 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.519 love women, but think about Liquorice Quartet. Frank wolf is 723 00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:44.440 amazing in that film. His performance I find is actually 724 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.079 it still haunts me. That's one of the many things 725 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:49.519 that haunts me about that film. Frank Wolfe's great. All 726 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:53.199 the Henry Paris stuff have really strong male characters. Score 727 00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:57.679 you have the great Gerard Grant and Casey Donovan. Both 728 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.239 of those guys are total dynamite. Carl Parker for the 729 00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:03.119 five minutes is fine. And they give him five minutes 730 00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:05.400 and don't give him a lot of dialogue and don't 731 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.880 make him put you know, can kannapes, canopies. I'm just 732 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:14.199 canope canapes. Let me just completely down like somebody who 733 00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:18.239 eats easy cheese. I don't, but I promise. But but yeah, then, 734 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.639 Harry Perris, you get Jamie Gillis, you get guys like 735 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:24.960 Eric Edwards, you know, Michael de tore or Ak, Michael Gott, 736 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:28.119 Bobby es Dear, you get all these great actors. I'm 737 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:31.039 amazing never worked with John Leslie at least not not 738 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:33.239 not one of the bigger films to my knowledge, like 739 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.000 John Leslie moving poor Car Parker's kind of just like 740 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.440 the water bug in the in the punch Bowl, you know, 741 00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:42.079 and especially with these two women that are just like 742 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:45.800 you have to really be I keep on your toes 743 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:48.280 because they're great. They're like these two you've got, you know. 744 00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:50.599 I hate using the term alphas, but these are two 745 00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:55.880 strong presences. Even though Anna is like the sub her presence, 746 00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:00.840 Mary Mendum's presence, and just yeah. 747 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:03.559 Her eyes, her eyes are just amazing and she does 748 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:05.280 such great acting through those eyes. 749 00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:08.519 He really does got she would have been amazing the 750 00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:11.639 Silent Era, but with that face too, because it's not 751 00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:14.199 just that she's yes, I mean she's gorgeous. She's pretty 752 00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:18.559 much perfect, I think, right, she is so expressive, like 753 00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:20.719 she's such a I kind of I really wish she 754 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:22.199 would have had more of an acting career. 755 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:24.360 A lot of at least what I know about this 756 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:29.079 film I learned from reading the rialto Reports amazing article 757 00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:32.639 on this on basically like all aspects of the film, 758 00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:34.719 the actors, like where it was shot and I don't 759 00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:37.280 want to repeat too much from it because it's so interesting, 760 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:39.199 and I just anyone who's listening to this, I so 761 00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:42.440 highly recommend that you read it. And it's reproduced actually 762 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:46.559 in the liner notes to the malausine uhd of this, 763 00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:50.119 but it's so chock full of information. But I mean, 764 00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:52.280 one of the I guess I was gonna what I 765 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.559 was gonna say, is you know, uh he talks about 766 00:37:55.559 --> 00:38:00.039 the backgrounds of the theater backgrounds of Merry mendem And 767 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:02.079 and Marilyn Roberts for that fact, like they were they 768 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:04.519 were both like, you know, theater actors, like trained actor 769 00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:07.800 and Mary Mendum especially like he kind of describes her 770 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:09.840 as like, you know, because he interviews her, and some 771 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:13.360 of the interviews reproduced how much she loved acting, and 772 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:15.800 it's just like, you know, she she just would take anything, 773 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:17.760 you know, at least when she's first started out, was 774 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:20.360 just taking like, you know, everything she could, and she 775 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.159 just like loved acting. And it just got to a 776 00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:25.000 point where she wasn't getting cast in anything that she 777 00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:28.119 felt you know, excited about, and then just kind of 778 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.360 gave up, which is so sad because like she is 779 00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:32.519 so really talented and it's just like, you know, you 780 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:34.400 look at her film filmography and you're like, wow, she 781 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.199 could have done so much more if she'd just been 782 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.920 like given the right opportunities. And I wonder if and 783 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:42.880 again this is also the Nualito Report article, is that 784 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.199 the story goes that she had a sort of serious 785 00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:49.840 falling out with Radley Metzker after or even possibly during 786 00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:52.840 the making of this film, and basically like they broke 787 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.280 it off because one side of the story is that 788 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:57.599 he had an affair with someone in the production. The 789 00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:01.000 other side is, you know, you know, he you know, 790 00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:03.480 she didn't like the way she was he treated her 791 00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:05.599 badly or something like that. So there's like a couple 792 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:09.280 of different versions of why they separated, but they, you know, 793 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:12.920 had a very bad breakup after this, And I just 794 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.119 wonder if maybe because of that, like you know, they 795 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.639 you know, if they hadn't, you know, could they have 796 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.239 worked together again? You know, would there have been different 797 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.159 opportunities for her? You know, just like did she did 798 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:24.480 she sever some professional ties. 799 00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:24.760 By doing that? 800 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:27.599 I mean, I don't know, But obviously with Joe Sarno 801 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.519 she went on to work with and and she was 802 00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:33.320 also in a Max pick Us film. I think that 803 00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:36.599 one thousand and one Perversions of Felicia or something like that, 804 00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:39.000 which is interesting. I think he maybe may have been 805 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.639 one of the French producers of the image, so maybe 806 00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:43.559 that was how the ties there worked. 807 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.559 You're talking about the essay that comes with this, and yeah, 808 00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:50.320 it's basically a book. It's like a cultography size book. 809 00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:52.679 It feels like for this, I'm not going to make 810 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.079 a big big deal out of this. I did when 811 00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:57.119 I picked up the Blu ray. One of the reasons 812 00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.760 why I picked it up was because of the audio 813 00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:02.679 come comentary, because it was supposed to have one and 814 00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:05.400 it doesn't. And I know there's a lot of scuttle 815 00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:08.079 bud out on like you know, Reddit, where people just 816 00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:10.079 love to fight all those kind of things, and I'm 817 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:13.480 just like, listen, it was probably somebody said that they 818 00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:15.280 could do it, they ended up not being able to 819 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:17.880 do it, there were technical problems at the end whatever, 820 00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:20.920 Like you know, we were all familiar with the audio 821 00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:24.079 commentary business, and I'm just like, Okay, it's not a 822 00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:27.119 big deal, but I'm always curious about the behind the 823 00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:29.320 scenes stuff. So if anybody knows what the story of 824 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.079 the commentary for the images. I'd love to hear it 825 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:35.320 because sometimes those stories are almost as fascinating as the 826 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:36.920 film itself, but I know it's not going to be, 827 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:40.000 because it's probably just going to be a footnote. But yeah, again, 828 00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:43.800 just going back to just how fricking beautiful this transfer is, 829 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:47.800 and like for me having witnessed it in that horrible, 830 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:50.159 horrible way and then to see it this way where 831 00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:54.039 it just feels like this came right out of the projector. 832 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:57.880 I mean, it looks amazing. I couldn't see a scratch 833 00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:02.440 on this, and I was just so happy with how 834 00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:05.360 gorgeous this film looks. Like you're talking about the locations, 835 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:09.719 I mean, the interiors of this look amazing. The lighting 836 00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:13.639 in this is fantastic. Everything about this movie just sings 837 00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.159 for me, and I'm so glad to be able to 838 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:19.400 revisit it now and see a proper transfer of this. 839 00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:23.039 Yeah, the shots of Paris are just so incredub like, 840 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:24.760 like I just I recognize so many of those. 841 00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:26.519 I'm just like, oh, it's the floss of the concordo. 842 00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:29.239 It's you know, it's like it's so amazing to like 843 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:32.280 see all those like it's it's just glorious. I'm just like, 844 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:36.079 you can't really fully appreciate it without a proper restoration. 845 00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:39.400 I think, Well, and Bradley, he's just one of those 846 00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:42.400 guys where everything, i mean, the all film needs to 847 00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:45.239 be preserved. But his stuff is so visual and so 848 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:49.880 visually dynamic and just from like the top. I've even 849 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:53.159 noticed how different characters will have a specific type of 850 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.039 nail varnish. I mean they even kind of I love 851 00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:57.559 that they mentioned it in this film where yeah, because 852 00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.800 he notices he's like, well, Anne never has her nail's painted, 853 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.679 and yeah, what He's like, clearly, oh okay, that's yeah, 854 00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:08.079 that's Claire's. That's that is a photo of Claire. And 855 00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:10.320 I love that. But even in his other films where 856 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:12.800 there's nothing, there's no commentary made about the dress or 857 00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.639 the makeup every single person, even if it's like somebody 858 00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:17.639 who's on screen for like two minutes. I mean, think 859 00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.880 about Valerie Moran in this film as the sales girl 860 00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.880 like that likes her having the like, yeah, it's a 861 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:26.360 great seed. And that's like the one scene I can 862 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.000 kind of deal with Sean because it's like we got 863 00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:33.519 like Allerie Varan's she's the oreo filling, so I could tell. 864 00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:37.639 At the same time, though, please, if you are very kinky, 865 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.960 don't feel that everybody else in the world is kinky. 866 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:41.880 You can't just go into a dress shop. There's got 867 00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.320 to be something else going on. You can't do what 868 00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:46.239 they do in this movie. That's really rude. 869 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:48.159 So they got very lucky they got your. 870 00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:50.440 Business, beware. So that's all I'm saying. 871 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:53.159 I've worked to retail. I think all of us have 872 00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:57.119 had work with the public reality. The couple that walks 873 00:42:57.159 --> 00:42:59.320 in are not going to look like Mary Mendon and 874 00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.679 Carl Park either. It's gonna it's gonna look like like 875 00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:07.679 I don't know, like Jesse Helms and like Sandra Lee 876 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:08.360 or somebody. 877 00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:08.559 You know. 878 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:12.599 It's gonna be oh god, yeah, it's gonna be You're 879 00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.639 gonna need a three bagger, maybe a four bagger, or 880 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:18.639 somebody walks in. Nobody wants to see that. Uh yeah, 881 00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:22.280 this is where the fantasy of erotica comes in for sure. 882 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.880 And at the sales, Girl's yeah, beautiful, Valerie Morn who's 883 00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:29.440 she was so great and wet Rainbow with Harry Reims, 884 00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:32.800 Anna Georgina's Spelvin. But uh but I love like even 885 00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:35.079 her little string of pearls that she like takes a 886 00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:36.960 point to take off. When you know she's about to 887 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.119 go in there and be a little naughty, why does 888 00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:42.440 she not lock the door. I'm like, everybody's an exhibitionist 889 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.480 in this very I'd not eve ready getting fired. I'd 890 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:47.119 be like, I've ever go lock the door because my 891 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:49.000 like the boss will come in and be like, what 892 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:52.960 are you doing? But yeah, just a little touches. D Bradley. 893 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:56.719 He his work really merits because there are some films 894 00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:59.440 that it's nice to have restored. But you know, if 895 00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:01.760 I don't have like the nice blu ray, I don't 896 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:04.719 sweat it. It's like when Pieces got that beautiful, I 897 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.519 was glad to have it. But Pieces are such such 898 00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:11.119 a wonderful Bonker's Grotty slasher film that I kind of 899 00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:12.800 didn't mind it in potato quality. 900 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.880 There are some movies where I'm like, I'd rather see 901 00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:20.920 this on VHS, like that movie. I'm sure that Grindhouse 902 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:24.760 did a fantastic job on an Impulse with William Shatner. 903 00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:27.320 Oh my god, that when it feels like you should 904 00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.760 be watching that on twelfth generation VHS taped off of 905 00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:32.199 Late Night cable someplace. 906 00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:35.599 Yeah, it's so weird like now with like this rise 907 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:38.599 of films being rediscovered and put on like not just 908 00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:40.599 Blu Ray, but I'm like, you know, uhd all these 909 00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:43.440 like video nasties that were like passed around in the 910 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:48.079 eighties on like Scratchy you know, twelfth generation bootlegs, like 911 00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:49.840 you know, getting it's like whoh, it's a you know, 912 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.960 just like wow, I didn't know I needed to see 913 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:55.719 this and like you know, like you know, I don't know, 914 00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:57.960 I don't know how improved it is seeing it in 915 00:44:58.039 --> 00:45:01.880 a sort of lawless present, but this yes, you know, 916 00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:05.239 I just want to say that on the cinematographer on 917 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:09.760 this movie. So again from Ashley West article. So basically, 918 00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:12.000 like Radley worked with like a French crew on like 919 00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:13.960 the you know, when he was shooting in Paris, and 920 00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:18.960 the cinematographer is actually a really like accomplished cinematographer, worked 921 00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:22.480 with like Jacques Becker and Renee Claire and so that's 922 00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:24.360 I think that's a lot a lot of the credit 923 00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:27.480 is due to the cinematographer on this one as well, 924 00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:30.480 just because it's yeah, just beautifully shot. 925 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:32.960 All right, let's go ahead and take a break. First up, 926 00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:35.079 we're going to hear from Rob King. He is the 927 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:39.199 author of Man of Taste, The Erotic Cinema of Radley Metzker. 928 00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:42.960 After that, we're going to hear from writer director Lena 929 00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:48.440 Mannheimer all about her twenty fourteen documentary The Ceremony, And 930 00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:50.960 we'll be back with both of those right after these 931 00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:54.719 brief messages. Looking for something superior to streaming, a place 932 00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:57.280 with more than five times the selection available on all 933 00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:01.360 streaming services combined, check out scarecrowvid is rent by mail service, 934 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:04.559 Select from an unparalleled collection of over one hundred and 935 00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:07.480 fifty thousand films and get blu rays, four k's and 936 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:10.639 DVDs delivered directly to your door. Get in on it 937 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.519 now at scarecrow dot com and rediscover the wonders of 938 00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:17.440 physical media. Well, first, I want to find out a 939 00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:20.119 little bit more about you, Professor King, and can you 940 00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:22.119 kind of tell me what your background is and how 941 00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:23.280 you got into academia. 942 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:27.639 I've been an academic like most of my working life. 943 00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:30.119 At a certain point on wanted to be a film 944 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:33.360 critic and try my hand at that, but I wanted 945 00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:37.159 to write more long form stuff, and so academia seemed 946 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:41.119 at that point in time the most direct path towards 947 00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:44.760 writing that kind of stuff. A lot of my previous 948 00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:48.280 work has been on slapstick comedy. I wrote a book 949 00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:50.880 on the history of the Keystone Film Company and a 950 00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:56.840 book on the changing fortunes of slapstick short subjects in 951 00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:00.480 the transition from the silence of the sound period. So 952 00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:03.840 with the radleygh Metica book, I was really broaching very 953 00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:07.440 new terrain for myself at least. Yeah, so that's that's 954 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:10.840 kind of my background. I suppose there's some sense in 955 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.039 which I feel like fate brought him circling around me 956 00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:18.119 many many times. When I started my job at the 957 00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:21.119 University of Toronto, where I started in two thousand and seven, 958 00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:25.639 my office neighbor, Barttester introduced himself to me, and you 959 00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:28.559 knew that I was teaching class in cult and Exploitation, 960 00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:30.840 and he was like, oh, I wrote this article on 961 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:33.880 Radley Metica, by the way, an amazing article. And so 962 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.360 at that point I really didn't I hadn't seen any 963 00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:38.800 of Metzke's films, So you know, I read the article, 964 00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:41.000 you know, I looked at some of the films. Then 965 00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:43.280 later I got a job at Columbia University and I 966 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:47.440 started here and I was teaching Culton exploitation again, and 967 00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:51.199 a colleague, Hillary Brower, said, oh, you know, I know 968 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.960 Radley Metzka, like, you know, maybe you should, I should 969 00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:57.360 put you in touch with him, and so she did, 970 00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:02.039 and so in consequence, he would come to my class 971 00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:06.559 and introduce his films. When I had one of his 972 00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:09.119 films on the syllables, it was always the Liquors Cottet 973 00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:13.199 Liquors Coutette was always the film that he wanted to screen. Obviously, 974 00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:15.079 this was towards the end of his life. I think 975 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:19.119 he showed up maybe in twenty thirteen, and then again 976 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:23.239 in twenty fifteen, and then in twenty seventeen he passed. Obviously, 977 00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:27.599 so that happened, and then after he died, I felt 978 00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:32.360 a certain sense of regret of not having I mean 979 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:35.119 a regret obviously of his passing, but regret at not 980 00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:38.840 having taken the opportunity that had just landed in my lap, 981 00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:41.199 and that I hadn't really done anything about Like I 982 00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:44.639 should have interviewed this guy, I should have done oral 983 00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:47.679 history or something. But this then kind of put it 984 00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:50.440 in my mind to wonder whether I could write something 985 00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:52.920 about him, because I was kind of bored by that 986 00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:56.079 point of writing slapstick comedy. I already knew my opinions 987 00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:58.440 on the topic, and you know, anything else that I 988 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:00.320 was going to write would be just be stuff that 989 00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.480 I already had thought, And so I started. I did 990 00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:07.159 a conference presentation on METZCA. I was thinking that maybe 991 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:11.440 I'll write a journal article during the pandemic. However, this 992 00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:15.400 was I want to say, late summer of twenty twenty. 993 00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:20.199 I was browsing on eBay and I noticed some items 994 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:24.119 of his on eBay, like things that shouldn't have been there, 995 00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:27.480 like his birth certificate, for example, Like why would that 996 00:49:27.559 --> 00:49:31.960 be there. What clearly happened was that after he died, 997 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:36.880 someone had purchased his storage unit content. You know, there 998 00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:39.280 were kind of reality TV shows about this. I'd love 999 00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:41.360 to have seen the one where they uppened, but it's 1000 00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:44.480 all Bradley Metzka's stuff, and so they bought it and 1001 00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:46.960 then they were just reselling on eBay. Everything was ten 1002 00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:51.440 dollars apiece, absolutely everything from stuff that was not worth 1003 00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:54.320 ten dollars to stuff that would be worth a lot 1004 00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:57.360 more than ten dollars. So I mean, I didn't get 1005 00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.840 some of the earliest stuff that had already been posted, 1006 00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:02.880 which was some of the real nice pieces, like the 1007 00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:06.880 birth certificate. But I got everything else for relatively a bargain. 1008 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:08.760 And so at that point it was like, well, this 1009 00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:10.079 is clearly a book, you know. 1010 00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:11.800 I now have like the. 1011 00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:15.400 Bradley Metga collection of some sort that's sitting in my 1012 00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:18.119 closet still at home. I'm going to donate it to 1013 00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:24.199 Columbia University Library, because Columbia was the university where Radley. 1014 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:25.639 Did his MA in theater. 1015 00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:28.960 Well, just to give you an example, he would transfer 1016 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:33.440 all of his films. He transferred them from celluloid first 1017 00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:36.519 to vhs, and then from VHS later he transferred them 1018 00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:39.840 to minidvs. And so a lot of what I have 1019 00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:44.840 now are those MiniDV transfers. Here's an example of one. 1020 00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:48.079 This is the image. I mean, this obviously isn't going 1021 00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:51.719 to be helpful for podcast listeners, but you know, imagine 1022 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:56.159 a teeny tiny size videotape. But that's the image with 1023 00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:58.480 his I assume that's his writing on it, that says 1024 00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:00.760 the image. Who knows what's on it? I don't know. 1025 00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:04.800 I haven't had that digitized yet, but I'm going to 1026 00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:06.800 work with the library to get it all digitized and 1027 00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:10.159 hopefully future researchers would be able to look at it 1028 00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:10.559 as well. 1029 00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:13.599 So how do you even approach a topic like raling 1030 00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:17.639 mask or do you go more for biographical information first 1031 00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:19.480 and then kind of dive into the films or do 1032 00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:21.320 you start studying the film? So I'll kind of work 1033 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.639 out from there. I mean, what's your your approach for 1034 00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:24.159 this book. 1035 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.400 Yeah, the field of porn studies is a giant field 1036 00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:30.480 within film scholarship, but it was one that I had 1037 00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:33.280 no exposure to. So one thing that I did was 1038 00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:35.119 I kind of, you know, I boned up on my 1039 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:38.079 porn studies. Maybe burned up is not the group right 1040 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:41.519 in that sentence, but you know, so I read a 1041 00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:45.679 lot of the important secondary literature. At the same time, 1042 00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:50.440 I was doing the same kind of research that I 1043 00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:53.519 knew how to do from having done earlier histories. So 1044 00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:57.239 this was a matter of looking at you know, going 1045 00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.400 to new public library, looking at clippings file for the 1046 00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:05.840 individual films, going through variety, going through box office, independent 1047 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:12.480 film journal, things like that. But I think the appeal 1048 00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:16.800 of doing a project like this is at least for 1049 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:19.400 me at that time, was that, as I mentioned, I 1050 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:24.039 was kind of sick of doing comedy, and I already 1051 00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:26.800 know what I'm going to find in Variety from like 1052 00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:31.039 nineteen thirty one or something like that. So the advantage 1053 00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:34.800 was that it opened up an entire new spectrum of 1054 00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:38.199 source material that I would not have considered before. 1055 00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:39.199 You know. 1056 00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:42.360 I think the Realita Report obviously has done an amazing 1057 00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:45.960 job of digitizing a lot of adult magazines that covered 1058 00:52:46.360 --> 00:52:49.239 the film industry, the adult film industry during this period. 1059 00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:51.760 So it was very eye opening to be able to 1060 00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:54.000 have a look at that and to read that, you know, 1061 00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:57.199 and then I would look at screw. I found that 1062 00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:02.519 they had microfilmed copies of screwed al Goldstein Journal, New 1063 00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:05.440 York Public Library, So I went through those. So it was, 1064 00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:07.280 in a sense it was kind of similar, you know, 1065 00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:09.480 to the research that I'd done previously. It was just 1066 00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:14.239 that it was very different sources, and that was exciting. 1067 00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:16.760 It allowed me to kind of rip out the canvas 1068 00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:19.480 of who I thought I was as a film historian 1069 00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:23.840 and to try on new hats as a historian. One 1070 00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:28.599 thing that I always try to do is to use 1071 00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:34.960 the biographies of individuals as the frame that kind of 1072 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:38.599 links the various pieces together. That's always been very important 1073 00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:42.199 to me. But in the previous studies that I'd wrote 1074 00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:47.119 on Keystone, on early Sam Slapstick, there's a constellation of 1075 00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:51.400 many different individuals. With Radley Metica, there was one Radley Mettica, 1076 00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:54.079 or two if you include Henry Parris. And so this 1077 00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:58.400 was really a pleasure to be able to write around 1078 00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:02.119 a single life in that sense, as opposed to braiding 1079 00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:05.719 together a network of individuals. 1080 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:10.000 With early silent and sound film. I mean, that's very 1081 00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:13.000 difficult to get your hands on that actual thing, to 1082 00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:15.239 get your eyeballs in front of some of those pieces. 1083 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:18.039 I imagine, how was it when it came to the 1084 00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.079 Radley Metzker stuff. Was it all fairly easy for you 1085 00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:23.360 to find? Or did you have to go digging for 1086 00:54:23.559 --> 00:54:25.079 some of these earlier films of his? 1087 00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:29.599 It was much easier. I didn't have to go on 1088 00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:32.559 a trip to the Library of Congress to watch films, 1089 00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:35.920 or like go to UCLA film archives or anything like that. 1090 00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:40.199 Basically all or like you know, ninety five percent of 1091 00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:42.320 the material by the time I was starting to write, 1092 00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:46.920 had been put out there first through a series of DVDs. 1093 00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:49.519 By first run that came out in the late nineties. 1094 00:54:49.639 --> 00:54:53.920 Those were mainly the audobon and soft core stuff. Then 1095 00:54:54.320 --> 00:54:57.679 you know, there had been special Blu ray releases by 1096 00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:02.599 one of the distribute distributors, like cult epics and things 1097 00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:05.960 like that, and they were all excellent, you know you 1098 00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:10.159 and many of them had directorial commentaries as well, so 1099 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:13.400 it really was an embarrassment of riches. But those commentaries 1100 00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:18.239 were enormously helpful, especially in terms of centering Metzka and 1101 00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:23.000 Metzger's voice, like the ability to actually to always have 1102 00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:27.079 him on the page in his voice, like the things 1103 00:55:27.159 --> 00:55:30.400 that he said about X, Y and Z previously I 1104 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:34.840 might have poo pooed. The directorial commentary is like, that's yeah, 1105 00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:38.519 that's too easy as a historical resource that you know, 1106 00:55:38.599 --> 00:55:42.159 I you know, I change my mind. These are enormously valuable, 1107 00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:46.000 and it was enormously valuable to kind of to get 1108 00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:47.519 Metzger's voice into the book. 1109 00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:50.519 You mentioned Henry Paris before, and can you kind of 1110 00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.719 talk about the difference between what Henry Pearis film is 1111 00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:56.760 versus a radling Metzger and especially you know, you point 1112 00:55:56.800 --> 00:56:00.239 out in your book that the image is ad the 1113 00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:03.480 Metzger film amongst a group of Henry Paris films. 1114 00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:07.599 The Image is really an unusual film in that respect, 1115 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:11.400 because you know, when the porno ic era began, you know, 1116 00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:14.719 with the success of I mean, obviously it began before 1117 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.119 Deep Throat, but it was Deep Throat that really opened 1118 00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:22.880 up the floodgates in a meaningful way. Metzger realized that, 1119 00:56:23.239 --> 00:56:25.480 I suppose that the jig was up in terms of 1120 00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:28.400 softcore in the you know, no one's going to be 1121 00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:31.840 interested in, you know, in watching a little bit of 1122 00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:35.320 something where he can have the where you could see 1123 00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:39.199 everything now, so he, you know, he took a gamble 1124 00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:43.920 and you know, took up a pseudonym, Henry Paris, and 1125 00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:48.559 began making a series of hardcore films beginning in nineteen 1126 00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:52.000 seventy four. But you know, the Image was a film 1127 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.519 that he had actually shot before he took up the 1128 00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:59.760 Henry Paris mantle, but he hadn't released it because of 1129 00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:05.119 the Supreme Court Miller decision in nineteen seventy three, which 1130 00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:08.639 was in part an attempt to tamp down on the 1131 00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:12.159 growing spread of pornography during this period, but it gave 1132 00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.400 him enough reason to kind of hold off on the Image. 1133 00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:18.639 In the interim, however, he decided not to hold off 1134 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:22.159 in other respects, and decided to see if he could 1135 00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:28.320 play in the kind of gray area of making pseudonymous 1136 00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:32.440 hardcore films under the Henry Paris name. The films are 1137 00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:36.079 very different Henry Paris versus the Radley Metzga films, and 1138 00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:40.159 I think the key difference is comedy actually, which brings 1139 00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:43.679 things back into my old wheelhouse. All of his hardcore 1140 00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:48.360 films are comedies. They're very, very funny, and in fact, 1141 00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:52.599 to watch them with an audience. I screened mister Bedoven 1142 00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:56.599 Light Industry back in March, I think of this year. 1143 00:57:57.199 --> 00:57:59.079 To watch it with an audience and to get that 1144 00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:04.039 communal line after, it's really a different experience. Whereas when 1145 00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:07.800 you look at his softcore films, there's only one that's 1146 00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:11.320 comedy and that score, and that's already very late in 1147 00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:16.079 his softcore trajectory. The previous films that he'd made, I mean, 1148 00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:18.400 they're distinguished by many things, but one of the things 1149 00:58:18.519 --> 00:58:21.000 is that they're not funny. You know, they're not trying 1150 00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:24.760 to be funny either. You know, something like Licorice cortet Is, 1151 00:58:25.519 --> 00:58:27.719 if anything, one could say that it's a little bit 1152 00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:30.519 too self serious, you know, saying with Little Mother and 1153 00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:32.599 you know, some of the other films from that period. 1154 00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:35.679 So that's the key difference that you know that he 1155 00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:39.840 that he's making these films as the hardcore films as comedies, 1156 00:58:40.599 --> 00:58:44.880 which is not something that he really experimented with his 1157 00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:47.400 in the films that he gave his own name to. 1158 00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:50.599 He's on record, I think it might have been one 1159 00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:53.360 of the Blu Ray commentaries where he says that he 1160 00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:57.320 wanted in his hardcore work to bring you know, something 1161 00:58:57.400 --> 00:59:00.199 of a kind of bush Belt tradition of humor to 1162 00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:04.760 his work in hardcore. You know, he's letting the Jewish 1163 00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:08.239 aspect of his identity kind of fly a little bit 1164 00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.800 more proudly, I think in those hardcore films than in 1165 00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:16.719 his more somewhat more gentrified and gentrifying softcore works. 1166 00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:19.559 I don't remember there being a lot of humor in 1167 00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:22.119 the image. It's been a while since I've seen it 1168 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:25.719 at this point, and I remember it being very very serious. 1169 00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:29.599 No, it's a serious film. I would say that, you know, 1170 00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:33.800 to my mind, it's his best film. There's not much 1171 00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:38.440 to laugh at beyond perhaps some of the occasionally stilted 1172 00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:42.440 dialogue and the stilted performances but you know, we can 1173 00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:46.679 leave that, put that to one side. It's a very absorbing, 1174 00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:52.360 very visceral film. Really. I mean, my sense is of 1175 00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:55.519 Metzka that the last of the sex films that he 1176 00:59:55.639 --> 00:59:59.000 gave his own name to, leaving aside The Princess and 1177 00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:05.400 the and the and the play Princess, and by the 1178 01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:09.960 end of his work in softcore and I'm talking here 1179 01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:15.000 about the film's score and the image, he hit on 1180 01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:25.480 a form for dramatizing sex effectively that is very visceral, 1181 01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:31.599 very absorbing. If you look at his earlier films, what 1182 01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:34.599 you typically have is, you know, there's some plot, then 1183 01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:37.639 there's sexy. There's a plot, there's sexy plot and sexy right, 1184 01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:40.920 and so on and so forth. And you know, obviously 1185 01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:44.400 that's true of you know, of Score and the image 1186 01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:47.360 as well. You have your moments of your or sex 1187 01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:50.559 scenes kind of interspersed among the plot action. But I 1188 01:00:50.679 --> 01:00:55.639 think that what you see in Score and the image 1189 01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:59.920 is the degree to which the sex is integrated full 1190 01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:04.639 into the plot, right, because Score is basically about this 1191 01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:09.519 couple that is trying to persuade another innocent couple to 1192 01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:14.679 swing both ways basically, and you know, the image is 1193 01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:20.760 about a man being initiated into sadomasochism. In each case, 1194 01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:24.239 you have these characters who are being asked to confront 1195 01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:30.079 taboos really and to cross over into that taboo territory. 1196 01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:34.639 And in both instances, the image and score we end 1197 01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:40.760 with very long, very kind of compose driving music driven 1198 01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:46.000 sequences of sex that are enormously involving because they combine 1199 01:01:46.559 --> 01:01:49.559 the sex with the logic of the plot. You're kind 1200 01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:55.920 of experiencing these characters and you're empathizing with these characters 1201 01:01:56.119 --> 01:01:59.039 as they breach these taboos, and that's a kind of 1202 01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.639 interesting place for you to be as a spectator. 1203 01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:07.519 I'm always fascinated by adaptation and adapting other people's work, 1204 01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:10.400 and Metzger was not a stranger to that. There were 1205 01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:13.599 several things that he adapted. I mean, you mentioned mister 1206 01:02:13.719 --> 01:02:16.519 Beethoven is such a great retelling of the Pygmalion story. 1207 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:21.559 What was his relationship with the image as a title 1208 01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:23.920 and did he ever, as far as you know, talk 1209 01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:25.280 with the author of it. 1210 01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:27.960 I'm not sure whether he spoke to the author of 1211 01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:31.960 the image, Catherine robe Grier, although they did meet. I 1212 01:02:32.119 --> 01:02:37.519 believe in later years he definitely consulted with Violette Luduke, 1213 01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:42.880 the author of Tourism Isabelle before adapting that. Actually, the 1214 01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:47.559 image Insan Isabelle make for an interesting pairing. Metzga has 1215 01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:54.880 basically two strategies for literary adaptation. The first is the 1216 01:02:55.079 --> 01:03:00.599 kind of loose riff on the basic plot, right, that 1217 01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:04.199 would be what you have with Carmen Baby. It's what 1218 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:08.239 you have with Camille two thousands as well, and it's 1219 01:03:08.280 --> 01:03:10.639 what you have with the opening of this debate open 1220 01:03:11.639 --> 01:03:17.159 where you're taking the basic plot of Pygmalion or Carmen 1221 01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:24.199 or Ladamo Camelia and you're basically translating it into a 1222 01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:29.119 modern day setting with sexual action with touris and Isabelle 1223 01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:34.199 and the image. By contrast, these are not loose adaptations. 1224 01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:38.920 They stay very very close to the literary source. A 1225 01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:42.000 lot of the script of Thesan Isabelle and the image 1226 01:03:42.519 --> 01:03:48.559 is directly taken from from the literary translations of these books. Right, 1227 01:03:48.639 --> 01:03:53.639 That's like he's effectively turning that into dialogue. The image 1228 01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:56.320 takes this even further. I mean the image is structured 1229 01:03:56.360 --> 01:03:59.960 around a number of chapters, and the film is equal 1230 01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:04.320 structured around chapter the same chapters with the same chapter headaches, right, 1231 01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:08.519 So though the image and the Reason Isabella are more 1232 01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:14.400 of his kind of his two most literal literary adaptations. 1233 01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:17.760 I think you tell a story in Radley Metzker, man 1234 01:04:17.840 --> 01:04:23.119 of taste around the book, the quote unquote readaptation going 1235 01:04:23.199 --> 01:04:26.440 from movie book to movie kind of back to book, 1236 01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:29.320 and you showed me that before we started recording. Can 1237 01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:31.360 you talk a little bit about that printing of the 1238 01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:32.960 image the paperback. 1239 01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:39.920 Metzga's relationship with literary sources and books is itself an 1240 01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:46.079 interesting one. Metzka's company his distribution company Audubon. In the 1241 01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:51.400 late sixties, he created a book Imprint, which released tie 1242 01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:56.639 in novelizations for his films and for other titles that 1243 01:04:56.880 --> 01:05:01.320 Audubon distributed as well. It was a just film or 1244 01:05:01.400 --> 01:05:05.920 novelizations of sex films that were printed in by Audubon Press. 1245 01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:10.159 I mean, we also have this absolutely odd ball publication 1246 01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:14.320 that they did, the collected speeches of Spiru Agnu. I 1247 01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:18.000 don't know what the thought was there, but anyway, so 1248 01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:22.360 Audubon books were distributed by Ace in many respects. To 1249 01:05:22.480 --> 01:05:25.880 return to the image in many respects, I think that 1250 01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:35.039 Radley Metzker was tracking Grove Press during this period. Grove 1251 01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:39.480 Press was a book publisher that published kind of outre 1252 01:05:40.519 --> 01:05:45.119 modernist literature with a high quotient of sexual content as well, 1253 01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:48.760 and by the end of the nineteen sixties, Grove was 1254 01:05:48.840 --> 01:05:51.639 also starting to get its feet wet in film distribution. 1255 01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:55.280 Grove distributed I Am Curious Yellow, for example, which was 1256 01:05:55.400 --> 01:05:58.960 like one of the kind of landmark films in terms 1257 01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:03.480 of explicit section being depicted on film. He starts as 1258 01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:06.880 a distributor of film, but I think he's interested in 1259 01:06:07.079 --> 01:06:12.000 making Auderbon a kind of Grove like brand, and so 1260 01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:17.800 starts to branch out into publication. Also releases the soundtracks 1261 01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:21.480 to many of his films. Also. Now, the image this 1262 01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:26.559 book is interesting because this is where the circle between 1263 01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:33.440 Metzga and Grove Press closes. The republication of the image 1264 01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:37.360 of jonder Berg's the image was by Grove Press. This 1265 01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:40.920 is a Grove Press publication and it came out before 1266 01:06:41.599 --> 01:06:47.000 the image that Metsga's the image hit movie screens. What's 1267 01:06:47.079 --> 01:06:50.199 interesting about this book though, is if you look at 1268 01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:54.000 the title on the cover page, it says the image 1269 01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:59.119 by jonder Berg with over sixty photographs by Radley Metzker. 1270 01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:05.000 It doesn't give any indication the mets that those photographs 1271 01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:09.320 are stills from a film that he had made. Right 1272 01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:12.079 as you can see as I kind of flick through here, 1273 01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:16.639 there are lots and lots and lots of images here. 1274 01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:21.920 So that's it's almost as though this is being presented 1275 01:07:22.039 --> 01:07:26.440 as like the photo Roman or the Fumetti version of 1276 01:07:26.960 --> 01:07:32.079 like the image where Grove press asked Bradley Metzka to make, 1277 01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:34.519 you know, to go and take some photos of people 1278 01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:38.400 doing S and M style things. So you know, it's 1279 01:07:38.519 --> 01:07:41.840 somewhat misleading in terms of what you think you're getting 1280 01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:45.199 here because it gives no indication that these are photos 1281 01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:48.679 from a film that is about to be released. It's 1282 01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:51.960 an odd ball publication, but it's it's at least the 1283 01:07:52.039 --> 01:07:56.800 publication where the trajectory of Metzka and the trajectory of Grove, 1284 01:07:57.039 --> 01:08:00.000 like there they finally intersected around the image. 1285 01:08:00.519 --> 01:08:03.079 Was he aware of this before they published it? I mean, 1286 01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:05.039 he had to be right, you know what. 1287 01:08:05.159 --> 01:08:08.400 I actually don't know. I'm not sure what the deal 1288 01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:13.480 was between between Grove and Metzca with respect to this book. 1289 01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:18.039 You know, one imagines that Grove already had the right 1290 01:08:18.319 --> 01:08:21.960 to it. You potentially got wind that Metzska was making 1291 01:08:22.039 --> 01:08:24.600 a film version and so decided to see if we 1292 01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:28.399 know what they could do together. But I have no 1293 01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:30.800 idea what the what the nature of the deal was 1294 01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:31.560 between the two. 1295 01:08:31.880 --> 01:08:34.479 I'm surprised it doesn't say now a major motion picture. 1296 01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:38.119 Yeah, I know, because like many of the like the 1297 01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:43.279 like some of the others do like your the Siv 1298 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:47.359 Holmes I a Woman, which was then adapted into the 1299 01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:51.600 mac Olberg film, which Audubond distributed, and that was that 1300 01:08:51.880 --> 01:08:54.520 was the film that put Audibon over in terms of 1301 01:08:54.640 --> 01:09:01.079 being able to like facilitate Metska's directorial efforts. That was 1302 01:09:01.199 --> 01:09:05.720 released with now a major motion same matorism Isabelle, Right, 1303 01:09:06.600 --> 01:09:10.640 but the image is released not like that, although like 1304 01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:13.640 one wonders where are all of these photos coming from? 1305 01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:14.039 Right? 1306 01:09:14.680 --> 01:09:17.199 What were some of your biggest challenges putting this book together? 1307 01:09:18.039 --> 01:09:21.000 Yeah, I think in a certain sense, just kind of 1308 01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:23.880 getting myself into the headspace for writing this kind of 1309 01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:27.520 thing was always kind of a challenge. Hiding all of 1310 01:09:27.560 --> 01:09:31.279 the materials from my kids while I was doing the work. 1311 01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:35.800 That was a challenge during the writing process. My kids 1312 01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:38.359 would have been between the ages of seven and ten 1313 01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:41.479 during all of that so yeah, that was a very 1314 01:09:41.720 --> 01:09:47.880 careful thing to do. The challenge is with writing histories 1315 01:09:48.119 --> 01:09:54.079 of pornography is trying to find where the primary materials are. 1316 01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:57.720 Where are you going to get like script materials, Where 1317 01:09:57.760 --> 01:09:59.840 are you going to get business records and so on 1318 01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:03.319 and so forth, because obviously, you know, in many of 1319 01:10:03.399 --> 01:10:06.359 these cases, you know, some of these companies that made 1320 01:10:06.399 --> 01:10:09.079 these films were more or less fly by night operations 1321 01:10:09.159 --> 01:10:10.920 looking for a quick buck here and there, and they 1322 01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:15.720 didn't have extensive company records. And even for those companies 1323 01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:18.159 that were in the game for much longer, like, it's 1324 01:10:18.239 --> 01:10:22.039 difficult to find where they where they are. That was 1325 01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:25.479 a challenge in my previous work on let's say the 1326 01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:29.199 Keystone Film Company. Keystone was founded by Maxenid and the 1327 01:10:29.319 --> 01:10:32.680 Academy Film Archive in LA has the Max Senet collection, 1328 01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:35.399 So you just walk to the Academy Library and you 1329 01:10:35.439 --> 01:10:37.640 look at all the files and you know there it is, 1330 01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:42.720 but you know, they don't Pornography doesn't fall under that 1331 01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:47.640 same duty of archival care unfortunately, which means that it's 1332 01:10:47.720 --> 01:10:49.640 it's harder to find this kind of material. 1333 01:10:50.399 --> 01:10:52.399 So where did you end up finding the bulk of 1334 01:10:52.479 --> 01:10:54.840 it or did you have to just keep scouring everywhere. 1335 01:10:55.800 --> 01:10:57.760 At a certain point you have to realize, you know, 1336 01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:02.960 you realize that, Okay, so there's a gap where I 1337 01:11:03.039 --> 01:11:06.119 would ordinarily fill it in with this kind of information 1338 01:11:06.640 --> 01:11:08.720 or you know, I'm not going to have access to this, 1339 01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:13.479 so I'm going to need to approach this material in 1340 01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:16.560 a different way, you know. So I'm not going to 1341 01:11:16.600 --> 01:11:21.159 be doing a detailed research looking at how different versions 1342 01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:24.520 of the screenplays were developed over a period of time, 1343 01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:28.159 because that stuff's not available to me. So you move 1344 01:11:28.279 --> 01:11:32.000 your focus elsewhere. You know, acknowledge that the gaps are there, 1345 01:11:32.319 --> 01:11:35.720 you know when you encounter them, but try to, you know, 1346 01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:38.960 to navigate your narrative in a way that doesn't make 1347 01:11:39.039 --> 01:11:41.800 those gaps quite as visible as they ordinarily would be. 1348 01:11:42.439 --> 01:11:44.840 And you know, again, I would say that this was 1349 01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:49.680 where those DVD and Blu Ray commentaries were really a lifesaver, 1350 01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:54.880 because they allowed me to incorporate Metzka's own memories and 1351 01:11:55.079 --> 01:11:57.079 reflections on the work that he did. 1352 01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:01.000 What ended up being your favorite of his films. 1353 01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:05.760 That's the image, no question. When there was the retrospective 1354 01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:09.680 of Radley Metka down in Lincoln Cenna in twenty fourteen, 1355 01:12:10.279 --> 01:12:13.560 a retrospective where he was able to introduce all of 1356 01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:15.920 his films in person. There were still at that point 1357 01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:17.720 a few films of his that I had not seen, 1358 01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:23.479 including Score and the Image, and the experience of watching 1359 01:12:23.640 --> 01:12:30.439 those films was really a very striking experience because of 1360 01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:35.279 the ways in which the sex scenes are dramatized in 1361 01:12:35.520 --> 01:12:38.840 terms of this idea of confronting taboos, the way in 1362 01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:43.039 which the spectator gets implicated into all of this, and 1363 01:12:43.159 --> 01:12:48.319 these very sustained sex scenes that end Score and the Image. 1364 01:12:48.680 --> 01:12:52.720 It was really a kind of bewildering moviegoing experience like 1365 01:12:52.840 --> 01:12:53.840 nothing I'd had before. 1366 01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:56.600 I here to talk as far as some of the 1367 01:12:57.600 --> 01:13:00.159 some of the biggest themes inside of the Image, what 1368 01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:02.039 would you want to convey to people as far as 1369 01:13:02.079 --> 01:13:03.800 like this is an important film because of this. 1370 01:13:05.079 --> 01:13:11.680 One of the really powerful aspects of the Image is 1371 01:13:11.920 --> 01:13:18.640 the way in which it dramatizes this confrontation with taboo 1372 01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:25.760 in a way that when that threshold is crossed, it 1373 01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:30.760 sparks a kind of chain reaction, right, and that's effectively 1374 01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:34.560 what then drives the plot so that we have the 1375 01:13:35.199 --> 01:13:39.399 you know, the main characters played by Carl that he 1376 01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:44.880 has to confront his own taboo in terms of you know, 1377 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:51.000 engaging in you know, sadomascis successual practice. The moment at 1378 01:13:51.039 --> 01:13:54.000 which he does this is also the moment where Anne 1379 01:13:54.159 --> 01:13:59.680 confronts her own taboo in terms of her decision to 1380 01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:04.039 choose the implement of her own torture, the whip that 1381 01:14:04.159 --> 01:14:07.880 she will be whipped with. But then that ultimately unlocks 1382 01:14:08.079 --> 01:14:13.439 the dominatrix character's taboo, which is her desire to put 1383 01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:18.079 herself in Anne's place, to use Anne as a kind 1384 01:14:18.119 --> 01:14:21.359 of avatar for what Jeen will then do for her. 1385 01:14:22.119 --> 01:14:27.800 So like, once that threshold is crossed, like it initiates 1386 01:14:27.960 --> 01:14:32.279 this chain reaction that unlocks or that makes all of 1387 01:14:32.359 --> 01:14:37.000 the other characters like now able to confront their you know, 1388 01:14:37.119 --> 01:14:40.760 and pass over those thresholds as well. And that kind 1389 01:14:40.800 --> 01:14:46.600 of Russian Dolls style structure whereby one taboo opens up another. 1390 01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:48.760 I don't want to say that this is what the 1391 01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:50.680 film is about or this is the great message of 1392 01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:52.800 the film, but I think it's what gives the film 1393 01:14:53.520 --> 01:15:00.439 its power. Right as you see these characters engaged in there, where. 1394 01:15:00.359 --> 01:15:02.600 Do you go from here? After you've talked about now 1395 01:15:02.680 --> 01:15:06.079 the Keystone Cops and all the Keystone stuff. And now 1396 01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:08.800 we've got as far as I can tell, as far 1397 01:15:08.920 --> 01:15:11.279 away from that as you possibly can, a different era, 1398 01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:14.600 whole different milieu. Where do you go from here? 1399 01:15:15.560 --> 01:15:20.479 I'm not really sure. I have some material, you know, 1400 01:15:20.560 --> 01:15:23.680 obviously not everything that I have on Metska ended up 1401 01:15:23.720 --> 01:15:26.479 in the book. I'd like to play around with it 1402 01:15:26.680 --> 01:15:30.319 for a bit more and see what your what further 1403 01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:36.840 articles or papers, presentations I can generate from this and 1404 01:15:36.960 --> 01:15:40.560 maybe where you let's see where this leads me, you know, 1405 01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:43.760 in terms of you know, you get requests for podcasts 1406 01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:46.239 like this, you get requests for other things like maybe 1407 01:15:46.279 --> 01:15:47.920 you want to be on this panel, maybe you want 1408 01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:50.319 to you know, just you blow with the wind a 1409 01:15:50.359 --> 01:15:53.840 little bit. Yeah, So that would be one thing that 1410 01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:58.119 I'm that I'd be interested in pursuing, because certainly I 1411 01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:01.000 would like to do all that I can and help 1412 01:16:01.079 --> 01:16:05.279 get these films out to a broader public, not just 1413 01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:07.680 in terms of the book, but in terms of assisting 1414 01:16:07.880 --> 01:16:12.479 with whatever special features on Blu rays or things like that. 1415 01:16:14.319 --> 01:16:17.279 But I mean, I've also been doing research on a 1416 01:16:17.319 --> 01:16:19.159 field that has nothing to do with film at all 1417 01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:22.439 that has exercised a lot of my attention over the 1418 01:16:22.520 --> 01:16:26.000 last year or so, which is I do work in 1419 01:16:26.600 --> 01:16:29.760 new media. I teach new media here at Columbia, among 1420 01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:35.199 other things, and I've been interested in exploring the history 1421 01:16:35.359 --> 01:16:40.920 of computational humor, which is the history of attempts by 1422 01:16:41.079 --> 01:16:45.840 people to get computers to tell jokes. And it's actually 1423 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:50.119 it's a pretty interesting history that I'm excited to write. 1424 01:16:50.199 --> 01:16:52.279 I've been researching it for about a year and a 1425 01:16:52.319 --> 01:16:55.520 half at this point. If Man of Taste is about 1426 01:16:55.560 --> 01:16:59.000 as far as you can go from Keystone as possible, 1427 01:16:59.079 --> 01:17:02.960 then this is like I seem to be jumping around, 1428 01:17:03.159 --> 01:17:06.760 maybe a little bit too much, but that's you know, 1429 01:17:07.079 --> 01:17:10.239 that's the material that I'm doing active research in at 1430 01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:13.399 the moment. But you know, I'm hoping to continue doing 1431 01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:15.760 stuff on Metsca as well. I mean, you know what, 1432 01:17:16.439 --> 01:17:21.479 I do hope that his final film Sins of Ilsa 1433 01:17:22.119 --> 01:17:26.079 or Love Standing Up, both titles you know, have been used. 1434 01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:29.039 I do hope that that eventually sees the light of 1435 01:17:29.159 --> 01:17:32.119 day in some shape or other, And you know, I 1436 01:17:32.239 --> 01:17:35.960 be delighted. You know, I'm in communication with Joe Rubin 1437 01:17:36.039 --> 01:17:38.239 and Vinegar Syndrome and anything that we can do to 1438 01:17:38.359 --> 01:17:42.359 get that film out. You know, whether as your release 1439 01:17:42.439 --> 01:17:45.119 in its own right, or as you know, a kind 1440 01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:48.840 of extra feature on Henry Parris DVD I think would 1441 01:17:48.880 --> 01:17:50.159 be enormously valuable. 1442 01:17:51.039 --> 01:17:52.800 Preessor King, thank you so much for your time. This 1443 01:17:52.920 --> 01:17:54.119 is so delightful talking with you. 1444 01:17:54.920 --> 01:17:58.640 No, it's an absolute pleasure. Like you know, any time 1445 01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:00.640 you know anything that you if you want to do 1446 01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:04.039 something about Keystone or early seven slabs, they got be 1447 01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:07.239 more than happy to dust off my research from there 1448 01:18:07.359 --> 01:18:09.880 and talk about that as well. But this was real pleasure. 1449 01:18:10.279 --> 01:18:10.880 Thanks so much. 1450 01:18:24.359 --> 01:18:26.600 I'm so curious how you got into filmmaking. 1451 01:18:27.560 --> 01:18:32.840 I was at a business school and I went to 1452 01:18:32.920 --> 01:18:35.439 New York to do an internship at a film production company. 1453 01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:37.399 And because I was in business school, I thought that 1454 01:18:37.479 --> 01:18:42.800 I wanted to do production. And then I was doing 1455 01:18:43.039 --> 01:18:46.479 this internship for a long time in New York, and 1456 01:18:46.960 --> 01:18:51.560 I also worked for a French director doing that, I 1457 01:18:51.640 --> 01:18:54.399 think the first seed, even though I didn't understand it, 1458 01:18:54.600 --> 01:18:56.439 but I think it was a very important thing for 1459 01:18:56.520 --> 01:19:00.399 me to be working very close to someone who wastively 1460 01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:04.720 in charge of the project, where I identified very much 1461 01:19:04.880 --> 01:19:07.760 with him, and I didn't I had no idea that 1462 01:19:07.880 --> 01:19:10.840 I wanted to work with something creative and I was 1463 01:19:10.920 --> 01:19:12.800 in business school because I had no idea what I 1464 01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:15.720 wanted to do, and I could get in because I 1465 01:19:15.800 --> 01:19:21.199 had good grades. Basically, I saw Katherine on television and 1466 01:19:21.720 --> 01:19:25.760 I didn't know and this actually has to do not 1467 01:19:26.079 --> 01:19:29.079 really why I got into filmmaking, but she was really 1468 01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:32.920 the starting point why I wanted to direct. So I 1469 01:19:33.159 --> 01:19:36.680 was in Paris and I was watching this very typically 1470 01:19:37.479 --> 01:19:43.760 French program, three hours discussion about this one topic, no 1471 01:19:44.119 --> 01:19:49.560 commercial breaks and with different intellectual disciplines discussing this. And 1472 01:19:50.039 --> 01:19:56.520 the night theme was taboos around female pleasure, I believe, 1473 01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:00.279 and people were coming and going, and you know, there 1474 01:20:00.319 --> 01:20:07.359 were very very widespread scenes. So and then after a 1475 01:20:07.479 --> 01:20:14.199 woman had talked about how she was abused as a 1476 01:20:14.359 --> 01:20:19.520 child and many very difficult consequences that that got for her, 1477 01:20:20.560 --> 01:20:26.560 this older woman comes in, very elegant and in a suit, 1478 01:20:27.680 --> 01:20:30.640 and I for some reason thought that she was a 1479 01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:35.199 representative for the Catholic Church. So when this little lady 1480 01:20:35.319 --> 01:20:40.319 starts talking about this scene where a half naked black 1481 01:20:40.439 --> 01:20:44.119 man is chained by the river Senn and how the 1482 01:20:44.239 --> 01:20:46.760 scene is lit up by the river roads that go by, 1483 01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:51.279 I was like, what, whoa wha, what is she talking about? 1484 01:20:51.880 --> 01:20:54.000 And my friend, she's quite good. But I was like, 1485 01:20:55.159 --> 01:20:58.039 did I actually get this right? And then you know, 1486 01:20:59.319 --> 01:21:01.960 I recognize her name, but I had no idea who 1487 01:21:02.039 --> 01:21:04.720 she was, and it was because of her husband. And 1488 01:21:04.840 --> 01:21:09.880 then she started talking about this contract that she had 1489 01:21:10.119 --> 01:21:13.800 with a younger woman who had given her the her 1490 01:21:13.960 --> 01:21:16.960 liberty and for her to decide everything in her life. 1491 01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:21.640 And I was so intrigued, and I was like, why 1492 01:21:22.000 --> 01:21:25.520 would anyone do that, and why would anyone accept that, you. 1493 01:21:25.560 --> 01:21:26.880 Know how what? 1494 01:21:28.359 --> 01:21:32.439 So I bought her books and I started reading. Lots 1495 01:21:32.479 --> 01:21:36.760 of time went by, and then I decided that I 1496 01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:40.159 wanted to meet with her, and I wrote her a letter, 1497 01:21:41.119 --> 01:21:44.760 and then I went back to Paris, which is I 1498 01:21:44.800 --> 01:21:46.800 don't know why I did that, because I'm in Sweden 1499 01:21:46.880 --> 01:21:48.600 and is not you know, for an American. I mean, 1500 01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:50.960 it is close, but it's also another country and you 1501 01:21:51.079 --> 01:21:53.199 have to go there. And you know, I had no 1502 01:21:53.319 --> 01:21:57.760 idea that she would answer me and didn't. By chance, 1503 01:21:58.039 --> 01:22:00.640 I met someone who knew so one. I had a 1504 01:22:00.720 --> 01:22:06.279 cousin that worked in that editor that you know published 1505 01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:09.439 her books. It is from the Bignui, I think, and 1506 01:22:09.560 --> 01:22:11.359 I'm like, I'm going to go home soon. And she 1507 01:22:11.479 --> 01:22:13.760 hasn't answered me yet, and I think it was just 1508 01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:15.520 like I had been there for a week or something. 1509 01:22:15.560 --> 01:22:19.520 I mean, it's all very it's quite quite crazy. She said, Elsie, 1510 01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:22.880 what I can do? And then suddenly I in my email, 1511 01:22:23.039 --> 01:22:26.279 and the way I remember it is that I just 1512 01:22:26.479 --> 01:22:31.960 got a landline phone number. It had no address. I 1513 01:22:31.960 --> 01:22:33.800 mean I must have had an address, but it was 1514 01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:37.079 probably a very cryptical one, you know, like I couldn't 1515 01:22:37.239 --> 01:22:41.359 understand what it was from. There was no what do 1516 01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:42.960 you call when you have like the heading. 1517 01:22:42.800 --> 01:22:46.479 Of the oh, like the subject lined or anything, project line. 1518 01:22:47.079 --> 01:22:50.359 Nothing. It was just this number. And I called and 1519 01:22:50.479 --> 01:22:54.680 I remember hearing Katherine's voice saying like zero one blah 1520 01:22:54.720 --> 01:22:57.800 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I understood 1521 01:22:57.800 --> 01:23:00.159 that it was her, and I left her message and 1522 01:23:00.199 --> 01:23:01.800 I asked her to call me back, and then she 1523 01:23:01.960 --> 01:23:05.079 called me back, and we had tea the following day 1524 01:23:05.279 --> 01:23:09.399 at a big hotel. And then I was like, wow, 1525 01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:14.800 how am I gonna convince someone that I should make 1526 01:23:14.960 --> 01:23:19.439 a film about her? And I have never made a film, 1527 01:23:20.520 --> 01:23:23.479 and I don't know how to make films. And also 1528 01:23:23.880 --> 01:23:27.399 she is thirty years my senior, having read books for 1529 01:23:27.520 --> 01:23:30.800 thirty years, having met people for thirty years, and et cetera, 1530 01:23:30.840 --> 01:23:35.640 et cetera, and et cetera. I was very nervous, not 1531 01:23:36.000 --> 01:23:40.680 really having a plan, and then we met, and I 1532 01:23:40.760 --> 01:23:45.119 think she was just a little curious about, you know, 1533 01:23:45.399 --> 01:23:51.840 this Swedish person, and I think none of us really 1534 01:23:53.199 --> 01:23:58.079 had knew that, you know, this meeting would end up 1535 01:23:58.279 --> 01:24:02.960 me spending lots of time with her and her closest 1536 01:24:03.000 --> 01:24:06.319 ones for five years after. I mean, I had no clue, 1537 01:24:07.479 --> 01:24:11.399 nor did she. And also I understood something very important 1538 01:24:11.479 --> 01:24:13.159 later when I thought about it, is that you don't 1539 01:24:13.239 --> 01:24:16.119 get like a yes. You know, obviously making a documentary 1540 01:24:16.159 --> 01:24:19.239 film about someone, you can have an agreement, but then 1541 01:24:19.359 --> 01:24:23.079 you know it's something that is you're negotiating that trust 1542 01:24:23.439 --> 01:24:26.880 like in any other relationship all the time. So I 1543 01:24:26.960 --> 01:24:29.159 mean what she said yes to was that she said, 1544 01:24:30.439 --> 01:24:33.680 I'm having dinner with a few friends tomorrow, would you 1545 01:24:33.800 --> 01:24:36.800 like to come? And I was like, oh, maybe that's 1546 01:24:37.239 --> 01:24:41.720 at the slaves house and it was. But the person 1547 01:24:41.760 --> 01:24:45.319 who opened the door was a seventeen year old girl 1548 01:24:45.920 --> 01:24:49.000 in a dress and I was like, this must be 1549 01:24:49.159 --> 01:24:53.680 her daughter, and yeah, so that was the how what 1550 01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:56.960 sparked this thing, and then I went to a third 1551 01:24:57.039 --> 01:24:58.960 thing before going back to Sweden, and then I just 1552 01:24:59.039 --> 01:25:04.920 started spending lots of time with them, just being trying 1553 01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:07.359 to figure out what was I mean, there were just 1554 01:25:07.479 --> 01:25:10.399 so many things. You know, I'm I'm Swedish, it was 1555 01:25:10.479 --> 01:25:13.199 not my language, is not my you know. It was 1556 01:25:13.439 --> 01:25:18.560 like navigating and immigrating in so many different layers of culture. 1557 01:25:19.239 --> 01:25:22.840 I knew nothing about saya masochism also, and I've never 1558 01:25:22.960 --> 01:25:26.039 been really interested in sata masochism, and I wasn't really 1559 01:25:27.159 --> 01:25:30.800 but I did quite rapidly understand that this is you know, 1560 01:25:31.039 --> 01:25:38.880 the most incredible magnifying glass on basic human needs and behaviors, 1561 01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:42.159 her ceremonies, and that was you know, I was never 1562 01:25:42.319 --> 01:25:46.760 interested in the exoticism of it or you know, but 1563 01:25:47.159 --> 01:25:50.279 you know, I did rapidly understand that this is incredible 1564 01:25:50.359 --> 01:25:52.960 with all the codes and you know, yeah, sorry, you 1565 01:25:53.000 --> 01:25:55.600 should ask your questions. I'm just talking. But it is 1566 01:25:55.720 --> 01:25:59.560 actually how I got into filmmaking. I you know, I 1567 01:25:59.640 --> 01:26:04.680 have this urge of doing this film myself, and that's 1568 01:26:04.760 --> 01:26:06.880 how I understood that that's what I wanted to do, 1569 01:26:07.039 --> 01:26:08.039 and that's how I started. 1570 01:26:08.840 --> 01:26:11.560 When the cameras weren't rolling. What was she like as 1571 01:26:11.560 --> 01:26:11.920 a person. 1572 01:26:12.760 --> 01:26:17.560 She's very intact, she has lots of integrity, she's very 1573 01:26:17.720 --> 01:26:23.920 clear with boundaries. She has very good relationships and long 1574 01:26:24.079 --> 01:26:28.000 standing relationships around her. I think because of that, you know, 1575 01:26:28.079 --> 01:26:31.880 there is no chaos around her. She's like the master 1576 01:26:32.840 --> 01:26:36.840 mistress of playing with different masks. So it's not like 1577 01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:40.640 she has a way of being when the camera was 1578 01:26:40.720 --> 01:26:46.079 not on, but she is constantly sliding in and out 1579 01:26:46.399 --> 01:26:54.079 of different roles that she plays. I remember understanding that 1580 01:26:54.279 --> 01:26:59.680 this is a person who has yeah, who is incredibly 1581 01:27:00.119 --> 01:27:04.239 gifted in playing with these different masks. And I thought 1582 01:27:04.640 --> 01:27:09.479 very naively that if I could just peel off the layers, 1583 01:27:09.640 --> 01:27:13.199 I will come into something that is the get into 1584 01:27:13.279 --> 01:27:16.319 the center. And I understood that, of course we are 1585 01:27:16.600 --> 01:27:19.800 you know, we are. We are onions, We're not there 1586 01:27:19.880 --> 01:27:20.880 is no such thing. 1587 01:27:21.520 --> 01:27:21.720 You know. 1588 01:27:22.000 --> 01:27:25.199 It's like when you look, Narcissus is in the water 1589 01:27:25.439 --> 01:27:27.800 and you move it, and you know the image you moves, 1590 01:27:27.920 --> 01:27:30.239 and that's her and that's all of us. And now 1591 01:27:30.319 --> 01:27:34.039 I know that making other films. But I thought that 1592 01:27:34.159 --> 01:27:38.279 if I just watch closely enough for a long enough time, 1593 01:27:39.000 --> 01:27:40.800 I will get into the pit, I will get into 1594 01:27:40.920 --> 01:27:44.479 her center that obviously never happened. But there is no 1595 01:27:44.640 --> 01:27:47.119 such thing as something that she puts on, and then 1596 01:27:47.159 --> 01:27:52.199 she's another person. She's just very yeah, she just you know, 1597 01:27:52.600 --> 01:27:55.760 she is she is many things, and she is you know, 1598 01:27:56.079 --> 01:28:04.399 a very uh, she's just an whole cute, considerate bourgeois lady. 1599 01:28:04.760 --> 01:28:09.239 And she is this mistress of super elaborate ceremonies and 1600 01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:12.159 she can say things, you know, she can talk about, 1601 01:28:13.000 --> 01:28:16.840 you know, having tea or a handshake where the sun 1602 01:28:16.920 --> 01:28:22.039 doesn't shine with the same face basically, and she does 1603 01:28:22.119 --> 01:28:24.640 that and she knows how to trigger people that way. 1604 01:28:25.199 --> 01:28:28.000 And it's funny because I'm now editing another thing with 1605 01:28:28.079 --> 01:28:32.680 the photographer that I was working with doing the contract 1606 01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:35.560 which became the first short film, and he said that 1607 01:28:35.720 --> 01:28:38.239 that he thought he doesn't speak French, and he thought 1608 01:28:38.279 --> 01:28:42.399 that he would understand when they what happened, and he 1609 01:28:42.600 --> 01:28:47.600 realized quite quickly that I don't because you know, I 1610 01:28:49.119 --> 01:28:52.119 can't put whatever is going on with her face and 1611 01:28:52.439 --> 01:28:56.560 her interactions what is actually being said. I can't the 1612 01:28:56.640 --> 01:29:04.159 body language. So a very rich personality, playful, with lots 1613 01:29:04.199 --> 01:29:06.960 of integrity, and I think that's so important because I 1614 01:29:07.039 --> 01:29:10.239 say this with the masks. And also I would really 1615 01:29:10.479 --> 01:29:15.000 like to put forward how I see how that she 1616 01:29:15.279 --> 01:29:18.920 never creates chaos around her. So she plays with masks, 1617 01:29:18.960 --> 01:29:23.359 but in her intimate relationships, she's also very clear, firm, 1618 01:29:23.680 --> 01:29:28.279 you know, she's very intact. There's always calm around her, 1619 01:29:29.079 --> 01:29:30.239 which I really appreciate. 1620 01:29:31.279 --> 01:29:35.079 So you mentioned the contract. Can you tell me how 1621 01:29:35.159 --> 01:29:37.319 that one comes about? Because I found it interesting to 1622 01:29:37.399 --> 01:29:40.479 see how you had the contract the second film and 1623 01:29:40.520 --> 01:29:43.159 then less ceremony. It's kind of like building up or 1624 01:29:43.439 --> 01:29:45.239 was that intentional or is that just the way that 1625 01:29:45.319 --> 01:29:46.199 things had to work out? 1626 01:29:47.199 --> 01:29:50.239 As I just said, I started doing this without knowing 1627 01:29:50.840 --> 01:29:54.439 anything about how to make a documentary film. And then 1628 01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:59.159 the Swedish Film Institute, a regional fund and the Swedish 1629 01:29:59.239 --> 01:30:03.840 National Television and launched a competition where they wanted to 1630 01:30:04.079 --> 01:30:07.560 fund eight a series of eight films with one theme, 1631 01:30:07.720 --> 01:30:10.279 and the theme was the Woman in My Life. And 1632 01:30:10.399 --> 01:30:12.840 I was like, this is too good to be true. 1633 01:30:13.039 --> 01:30:16.600 I have the most incredible story. So I kind of 1634 01:30:16.920 --> 01:30:19.000 chopped a part of and I was like, maybe it's 1635 01:30:19.039 --> 01:30:22.399 smart to do a film from H to Z, you know, 1636 01:30:22.640 --> 01:30:26.760 and learning I applied to this and where I wanted 1637 01:30:26.800 --> 01:30:29.079 to tell the story from Beverly's point of view, which 1638 01:30:29.199 --> 01:30:33.479 I did, which became the contract and then La sentence 1639 01:30:33.520 --> 01:30:36.279 the five census was more that we did that for 1640 01:30:36.359 --> 01:30:39.159 the contract, so that became, you know, another short film 1641 01:30:39.279 --> 01:30:43.319 that we wanted to just just to to have it, 1642 01:30:43.720 --> 01:30:46.920 and then I continue to do the ceremony. But it 1643 01:30:47.039 --> 01:30:49.560 was I mean, for me, it's really part of the same. 1644 01:30:50.600 --> 01:30:53.159 It's all the same. It's the same adventure, you know. 1645 01:30:53.560 --> 01:30:57.159 I And also I mean, apart from the contract, I 1646 01:30:57.239 --> 01:31:02.960 spent lots of time with not filming at all, because 1647 01:31:03.039 --> 01:31:09.399 since I wasn't at all used to film, or I 1648 01:31:09.560 --> 01:31:13.800 wasn't comfortable with you know, approaching the world via a lens. 1649 01:31:13.920 --> 01:31:19.439 I was much more like socially comfortable spending time and 1650 01:31:20.319 --> 01:31:24.439 feeling like I didn't intrude with anything. So I just 1651 01:31:24.479 --> 01:31:28.960 spent time to be able to understand basically. And also 1652 01:31:29.079 --> 01:31:32.680 they hated being filmed, that's another thing, and I didn't. 1653 01:31:33.359 --> 01:31:36.800 I had nothing to compare with, so now I have 1654 01:31:37.359 --> 01:31:42.600 and it was really difficult actually, but so they appreciated me, 1655 01:31:44.239 --> 01:31:49.239 but it was not very easy to. 1656 01:31:49.279 --> 01:31:52.600 Film them when you are with them. Is this more 1657 01:31:52.760 --> 01:31:55.199 social events or you just kind of hanging out. What 1658 01:31:55.439 --> 01:31:58.199 is that like kind of building up this relationship with them. 1659 01:31:58.960 --> 01:32:02.680 I went with them on the vcation with friends. Kathrine 1660 01:32:03.399 --> 01:32:08.760 has her own apartment, and then Beverly has her apartment 1661 01:32:08.960 --> 01:32:14.520 on the same flight of stairs, but another apartment. And 1662 01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:21.119 in Normandy, where Katrine has this small castle, Beverly lives 1663 01:32:21.279 --> 01:32:24.520 in a house on the grounds, but she does not 1664 01:32:24.720 --> 01:32:31.880 live in the castle. So when I'm there, I usually 1665 01:32:32.560 --> 01:32:37.840 either rented a place next to them, or I mean, 1666 01:32:38.159 --> 01:32:42.720 so I've been traveling with them several times. I've spent 1667 01:32:43.399 --> 01:32:48.039 so much time with them everywhere. So and the girl 1668 01:32:48.159 --> 01:32:50.560 that opened that door the second day I met them, 1669 01:32:50.920 --> 01:32:53.920 that was Beverly's daughter, and she asked me to be 1670 01:32:54.119 --> 01:32:58.800 her witness at her wedding. So it's like, I've spent 1671 01:32:59.439 --> 01:33:02.439 so much time with them everywhere, and I've met, you know, 1672 01:33:02.600 --> 01:33:07.000 all the closest friends and rock relationships, and so I 1673 01:33:07.079 --> 01:33:11.119 would say most of the places that they went, I 1674 01:33:11.199 --> 01:33:12.600 would spend time with them. 1675 01:33:13.319 --> 01:33:15.000 This is kind of a trial by a fire. You're 1676 01:33:15.199 --> 01:33:20.399 learning filmmaking while you are making these films. That's pretty intense. 1677 01:33:20.680 --> 01:33:23.319 How does that go for you? Do you surround yourself 1678 01:33:23.399 --> 01:33:25.359 with a really good crew or how does that go? 1679 01:33:26.600 --> 01:33:30.000 No, I was all by myself, not the first one. 1680 01:33:30.159 --> 01:33:34.680 With the first one, I was with Frederick, who I 1681 01:33:34.800 --> 01:33:38.680 also had a production in Paris. And I was with 1682 01:33:38.840 --> 01:33:43.399 Frederick who is an amazing photographer and filmmaker. I mean 1683 01:33:43.439 --> 01:33:47.560 now he has one to pandor with Rubenev Slund, so 1684 01:33:48.039 --> 01:33:52.439 I mean he has had an incredible career afterwards. But 1685 01:33:52.600 --> 01:33:54.600 he was, you know, he was amazing and I saw 1686 01:33:54.640 --> 01:33:57.880 a film that he made and I was just like this, 1687 01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:00.880 and I asked him if he would come on board 1688 01:34:01.079 --> 01:34:04.000 and do this with me, and you know, our first encounter, 1689 01:34:04.199 --> 01:34:07.399 we spoke for six hours, so it was really like 1690 01:34:08.560 --> 01:34:11.680 just being with Kathleen and Beverly and really not you know, 1691 01:34:11.800 --> 01:34:15.039 for the longer I was. I was by myself for 1692 01:34:16.039 --> 01:34:18.920 and then everything that has to do with the ceremonies 1693 01:34:19.199 --> 01:34:21.439 that we filmed. Eventually we did that in Sweden and 1694 01:34:21.479 --> 01:34:24.319 then I had to crew with thirty people around me. 1695 01:34:25.079 --> 01:34:27.279 But that was very much in the end and the 1696 01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:31.079 whole relationship and the filming. I was in Paris a 1697 01:34:31.239 --> 01:34:36.239 year filming, and I spent like two years at least 1698 01:34:36.680 --> 01:34:39.319 just hanging out and being with them and. 1699 01:34:39.920 --> 01:34:44.840 Approaching You said that they hated being filmed. Did they 1700 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:50.000 just change their attitude completely or how was that when 1701 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:51.039 you would pull out the camera. 1702 01:34:51.079 --> 01:34:53.600 I was just like, no, no, it's hard for me 1703 01:34:53.760 --> 01:34:59.600 to answer, because it was uncomfortable quite often, and not 1704 01:35:01.439 --> 01:35:05.079 as I said, Because I had never made a film before, 1705 01:35:05.159 --> 01:35:07.159 I didn't know what to expect, and I didn't, you know, 1706 01:35:07.279 --> 01:35:10.439 I thought that was kind of normal, that it would 1707 01:35:10.479 --> 01:35:13.960 not be and that it would be rather you know, intruding. 1708 01:35:14.319 --> 01:35:16.439 I mean, now I wouldn't do a film like that, 1709 01:35:16.640 --> 01:35:19.399 I would, you know, But by then I didn't know, 1710 01:35:20.199 --> 01:35:23.000 and I also didn't know that they knew. It was 1711 01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:29.000 quite recently when Claire said to me something where I 1712 01:35:29.159 --> 01:35:33.560 understood that they definitely knew that they were making my 1713 01:35:33.760 --> 01:35:37.520 life very hard as a filmmaker, but we never talked 1714 01:35:37.520 --> 01:35:42.159 about it actually, so it would be more. Also, you 1715 01:35:42.239 --> 01:35:45.199 can say that, but you can also change. Another point 1716 01:35:45.199 --> 01:35:48.159 of view is that Katherine asked me to sign a 1717 01:35:48.279 --> 01:35:52.159 contract where she would have a last look. And when 1718 01:35:52.199 --> 01:35:56.399 she said that I have no poker face whatsoever, and 1719 01:35:56.520 --> 01:36:00.039 when she said that, how much I did understand and 1720 01:36:00.279 --> 01:36:03.560 that that would be you know. Of course, Catherine is 1721 01:36:04.319 --> 01:36:08.479 someone who is in control of most things that she 1722 01:36:08.600 --> 01:36:12.079 does in her life, so that would be yeah, very 1723 01:36:12.840 --> 01:36:17.800 something to to to expect. But when she has said 1724 01:36:17.880 --> 01:36:21.760 that to me, I realized that that was no way 1725 01:36:22.079 --> 01:36:24.039 that I could give that to her, No way that 1726 01:36:24.119 --> 01:36:28.399 I can spend five years and being having to in 1727 01:36:28.479 --> 01:36:32.760 the editing room basically negotiating. And it just came from 1728 01:36:32.880 --> 01:36:35.439 my gut that I and she looked at me and 1729 01:36:35.560 --> 01:36:40.079 she's like, oh, I really see that. This is not 1730 01:36:40.279 --> 01:36:43.720 something that you you know, I think it's pretty normal. 1731 01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:48.239 And I said, yes, I agree, and then she refrained 1732 01:36:48.359 --> 01:36:51.399 from that and she said, Okay, we're not going to 1733 01:36:51.479 --> 01:36:53.560 do that, but I'm not going to I'm not going 1734 01:36:53.640 --> 01:36:56.119 to sign any contract with you. I'm not going to 1735 01:36:57.079 --> 01:37:02.560 sign either, you know, like a participate agreement, and I 1736 01:37:02.640 --> 01:37:06.640 will watch what I say and we will have no contract. 1737 01:37:06.680 --> 01:37:09.960 And that's how we worked. That's also incredible. And I 1738 01:37:10.119 --> 01:37:13.479 know that her friends told me when they saw the film. 1739 01:37:13.560 --> 01:37:16.720 They were like, I do not understand how you can 1740 01:37:17.720 --> 01:37:19.880 have her say things like this in front of camera 1741 01:37:20.119 --> 01:37:22.159 and the way that she is this is something that 1742 01:37:22.239 --> 01:37:27.039 we don't even see without cameras. And Catherine said when 1743 01:37:27.159 --> 01:37:30.000 we premiered the film in front of six hundred people 1744 01:37:30.119 --> 01:37:34.960 in Copenhagen. It was quite nervous for all of us. 1745 01:37:35.279 --> 01:37:39.279 And she said that she thought that she could control everything, 1746 01:37:40.079 --> 01:37:44.520 but of course, year after year after year, that she couldn't, 1747 01:37:44.720 --> 01:37:47.079 and that it was quite you know that she was 1748 01:37:48.000 --> 01:37:50.039 quite taken when she saw the film the first time 1749 01:37:50.359 --> 01:37:53.800 because she realized that, you know, not even her. 1750 01:37:54.479 --> 01:37:56.159 What else are you doing at the time? How are 1751 01:37:56.199 --> 01:37:58.520 you paying the bills while you're making this documentary. 1752 01:37:59.319 --> 01:38:02.039 I was working at a hotel. I was waitressing a night, 1753 01:38:02.720 --> 01:38:06.079 I was in the bar, I was in the breakfast room. 1754 01:38:07.600 --> 01:38:10.279 I remember, I mean, of course I remember it. But 1755 01:38:10.399 --> 01:38:12.920 it was also you know my I mean, I had 1756 01:38:13.479 --> 01:38:17.239 quite a good education and I was doing this, and 1757 01:38:17.359 --> 01:38:19.800 of course I couldn't live off it. I mean I think, 1758 01:38:19.920 --> 01:38:23.920 I yeah, I mean I invested everything that I got 1759 01:38:24.119 --> 01:38:27.319 for a long I even bought my equipment, you know, 1760 01:38:27.439 --> 01:38:31.520 I borrowed money to buy my equipment, so and I 1761 01:38:31.600 --> 01:38:34.600 didn't really know. I was like, how what you know? 1762 01:38:34.720 --> 01:38:36.680 And I had like a stomach ache every time I 1763 01:38:36.720 --> 01:38:40.600 should I was gonna pay my phone bills or And 1764 01:38:40.680 --> 01:38:44.319 then I had a friend that just a childhood friend 1765 01:38:44.399 --> 01:38:48.359 that became this manager at a hotel, and I called 1766 01:38:48.439 --> 01:38:50.600 her and I was quite desperate, and I was like, 1767 01:38:51.199 --> 01:38:53.680 do you have any job openings? And I have worked 1768 01:38:53.720 --> 01:38:57.319 as a waitress all over the world and you know so, 1769 01:38:57.920 --> 01:39:01.159 and she said yeah, sure, and I started working and 1770 01:39:01.239 --> 01:39:04.800 I was so grateful to get a job where I 1771 01:39:05.159 --> 01:39:07.880 actually earned money. So, yeah, that's what I was doing. 1772 01:39:08.600 --> 01:39:11.439 So are you filming every weekend or just how does 1773 01:39:11.479 --> 01:39:12.079 that work? 1774 01:39:13.119 --> 01:39:17.720 I was probably going every second month for the first 1775 01:39:17.760 --> 01:39:20.079 two years, and then I didn't film, and then I 1776 01:39:20.199 --> 01:39:23.960 stayed in Paris for a year and then. 1777 01:39:23.840 --> 01:39:28.640 I filmed regularly and then I worked as a waitress 1778 01:39:28.680 --> 01:39:30.600 in Paris as well, but then I was based in Paris, 1779 01:39:30.640 --> 01:39:34.600 so I was not going to And from where did. 1780 01:39:34.600 --> 01:39:38.239 You actually shoot that footage of the area where you 1781 01:39:38.399 --> 01:39:43.079 have some of the submissives like the barking and the stairwell, 1782 01:39:43.319 --> 01:39:45.359 like it's one of the main centerpieces of the. 1783 01:39:45.439 --> 01:39:50.520 Film that I shot in Gothenburg, twenty meters from the 1784 01:39:50.640 --> 01:39:56.439 house where I grew up. It's crazy, that's so we 1785 01:39:56.960 --> 01:40:01.039 flew in Katherine and Beverly. We had prepped everything and 1786 01:40:01.920 --> 01:40:08.520 prepped with their wardrobe and you know, accessories, and then 1787 01:40:09.319 --> 01:40:12.399 I had a production designer in America. I mean, she's Swedish, 1788 01:40:13.000 --> 01:40:16.119 but she was in New York. She is in New York, 1789 01:40:17.079 --> 01:40:22.000 Eles her name is. She did the production design and 1790 01:40:23.279 --> 01:40:27.640 we worked with real things that we gathered together from 1791 01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:32.000 Beverly and Catherine, and then we cast people dancers and 1792 01:40:33.960 --> 01:40:39.880 one active BDSM person from the community, but mostly dancers, 1793 01:40:40.680 --> 01:40:44.079 and then we basically created this world in this house 1794 01:40:44.680 --> 01:40:50.319 together for three days. It was amazing. It was incredible. 1795 01:40:51.199 --> 01:40:54.560 How easier or difficult was it finding some of the 1796 01:40:54.720 --> 01:40:58.039 archive material and kind of giving us more of her backstory. 1797 01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:03.800 I went to the archives and I met, you know, 1798 01:41:04.079 --> 01:41:08.880 the Olivis Corpe, who was in charge of the archives 1799 01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:12.199 is also a friend of Kathleen's, and they have them 1800 01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:18.159 in in Ormandy and I went there and they granted 1801 01:41:18.239 --> 01:41:21.720 the archives for free to me to use, so that 1802 01:41:21.880 --> 01:41:25.520 was very kind of them, and I just I just 1803 01:41:25.640 --> 01:41:28.960 spent time there and watching and looking and you know, 1804 01:41:29.119 --> 01:41:33.720 I wanted to grasp her into play with allah and 1805 01:41:33.920 --> 01:41:37.560 her yeah, her as a young person and you know, 1806 01:41:37.720 --> 01:41:40.159 before switching from being submissive to. 1807 01:41:42.000 --> 01:41:44.239 So Yeah, as I. 1808 01:41:44.279 --> 01:41:46.800 Remember it, it was not very hard. It was more 1809 01:41:46.960 --> 01:41:51.119 you know, you have to look and listen and basically 1810 01:41:51.760 --> 01:41:56.079 talk to people and you know, finding out but yeah, what. 1811 01:41:56.279 --> 01:41:58.800 Was the most difficult part of putting the documentary together? 1812 01:41:59.720 --> 01:42:03.039 The fictionalized scenes or whatever. I mean, it was more 1813 01:42:03.239 --> 01:42:07.399 it was almost like an installation. Was it was incredible 1814 01:42:07.520 --> 01:42:09.439 to make, and I had so much fun. 1815 01:42:10.479 --> 01:42:10.720 I was. 1816 01:42:10.920 --> 01:42:13.119 It was also very nervous, you know. 1817 01:42:13.439 --> 01:42:16.000 I was like, I'm gonna have men. 1818 01:42:16.199 --> 01:42:21.560 In shorts barking. And I remember when we cast for 1819 01:42:21.680 --> 01:42:26.880 that scene and one of the beast Tends as we 1820 01:42:27.000 --> 01:42:30.680 call them, Daniel, came in and I didn't know him. 1821 01:42:30.720 --> 01:42:34.960 He's a dancer. He came in and I started giving 1822 01:42:35.039 --> 01:42:39.199 him directions and I just burst into laughter, which is 1823 01:42:39.600 --> 01:42:42.479 you know, you can't do that when you have someone 1824 01:42:42.520 --> 01:42:45.199 who is you just don't do that. And I couldn't 1825 01:42:45.239 --> 01:42:49.720 stop myself. I just I was so embarrassed by the 1826 01:42:49.840 --> 01:42:53.479 own my own scene and my own like what. I 1827 01:42:54.119 --> 01:42:57.600 was so embarrassed, I think, or I know, and he 1828 01:42:57.760 --> 01:43:00.239 was just doing what I was telling him. I just 1829 01:43:00.399 --> 01:43:06.600 created this and I couldn't stop laughing, and wonderfully because 1830 01:43:06.600 --> 01:43:09.560 he was so good, you know, he got the part 1831 01:43:10.279 --> 01:43:14.199 so which you know obviously, and of course I excused 1832 01:43:14.239 --> 01:43:17.479 myself and I'm like, I'm so sorry, this is unforgivable 1833 01:43:17.600 --> 01:43:21.600 and I'm so so so good and I'm so embarrassed. 1834 01:43:21.760 --> 01:43:25.239 Why And then you know, when we were gonna when 1835 01:43:25.279 --> 01:43:28.239 we I was just like, but this this could be 1836 01:43:28.439 --> 01:43:31.800 if I don't if I don't get this right, this 1837 01:43:31.960 --> 01:43:36.520 is going to be so ridiculous and that could hurt 1838 01:43:36.760 --> 01:43:40.039 many people, and you know, I will feel ashamed for 1839 01:43:40.159 --> 01:43:43.239 them if I don't get I need you know, people 1840 01:43:43.439 --> 01:43:45.279 cannot laugh at this. 1841 01:43:45.640 --> 01:43:46.600 That that was mine. 1842 01:43:47.960 --> 01:43:51.840 And then I heard I'd heard someone say I think 1843 01:43:51.880 --> 01:43:54.680 it was an actor I don't remember, had said that 1844 01:43:55.039 --> 01:43:57.800 if I don't feel that it swindles a little bit. 1845 01:43:57.960 --> 01:44:02.279 Is that an English world that you get like dizzy? 1846 01:44:03.199 --> 01:44:06.960 If you don't feel that, you know the ground is 1847 01:44:07.079 --> 01:44:09.279 moving a little bit under your feet, and that you 1848 01:44:09.399 --> 01:44:13.800 lose control, then you've put the barrier too low. And 1849 01:44:14.159 --> 01:44:16.680 that was really something that I said to myself because 1850 01:44:16.800 --> 01:44:21.439 I was very nervous. Also, those scenes cost a lot 1851 01:44:21.520 --> 01:44:23.920 of money, and you know it was you know, thirty 1852 01:44:24.039 --> 01:44:27.439 people and everyone was watching me and you know it 1853 01:44:27.560 --> 01:44:30.199 was my but and Katrine was going to come and 1854 01:44:30.279 --> 01:44:33.239 I was also directing Katherine doing things. You know that 1855 01:44:33.439 --> 01:44:37.079 was also insane. But it went really well, and you know, 1856 01:44:37.279 --> 01:44:43.159 I'm I'm it went well, but I was but I 1857 01:44:43.199 --> 01:44:46.399 wouldn't say that that was the hardest because that was 1858 01:44:46.560 --> 01:44:52.399 actually quite fluid for me. Weirdly enough, I was very alone. 1859 01:44:53.560 --> 01:44:57.800 That was the hardest. I was very new dealing with 1860 01:44:57.920 --> 01:45:04.079 all these relationships, you know, handling things, and there was 1861 01:45:04.159 --> 01:45:06.199 just so much that I didn't know, and I really 1862 01:45:06.279 --> 01:45:09.760 didn't have people to call. You know, there are still 1863 01:45:09.800 --> 01:45:11.720 many things that I don't know, but I have more 1864 01:45:11.800 --> 01:45:14.640 people that I can ask. I just had to kind 1865 01:45:14.680 --> 01:45:18.880 of navigate. I mean, there were times where I thought 1866 01:45:18.920 --> 01:45:22.119 that maybe it's dumb that I don't show them more 1867 01:45:22.399 --> 01:45:24.520 in their everyday lives, and then I was like, but 1868 01:45:24.640 --> 01:45:28.239 it's not interesting. And now I know, I really feel 1869 01:45:28.359 --> 01:45:30.920 that I made the right decision. But you know, people 1870 01:45:31.000 --> 01:45:33.880 were questioning why, you know, we really want to see her, 1871 01:45:34.239 --> 01:45:37.600 and I was like, but she's not very interesting having 1872 01:45:37.680 --> 01:45:41.159 tea and eating cookies. She's interesting here and this is 1873 01:45:41.279 --> 01:45:45.159 also where I would get access to her. She's intellectually 1874 01:45:45.760 --> 01:45:49.520 very free, and she's incredible the way that she looks 1875 01:45:49.520 --> 01:45:53.520 at things. And you know, in our interviews and as 1876 01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:57.680 you know, in documentary filmmaking, it has like talking heads 1877 01:45:57.760 --> 01:46:01.359 that's kind of a low status, and I love that. 1878 01:46:01.960 --> 01:46:06.399 I love hearing people reflect and talk of their point 1879 01:46:06.439 --> 01:46:09.640 of views and their lives, and you know, I still do. 1880 01:46:09.920 --> 01:46:13.800 So the ceremonies are really at the center. That is 1881 01:46:13.880 --> 01:46:18.199 what is incredible. And to approach that. I also need 1882 01:46:18.319 --> 01:46:22.079 to do that in fiction because I can never do 1883 01:46:22.279 --> 01:46:25.199 them justice, you know, walking it even though she would 1884 01:46:25.239 --> 01:46:28.600 never have let me. Also, but having you know this, 1885 01:46:29.600 --> 01:46:32.880 you know, to to understand the soul of what she does, 1886 01:46:33.159 --> 01:46:38.600 it needed to be. I think what we did was 1887 01:46:38.920 --> 01:46:42.640 the most truthful that we could ever do. And also 1888 01:46:43.159 --> 01:46:46.039 Christian said that it's weird. I mean, I've been to 1889 01:46:46.159 --> 01:46:48.680 some of this. I mean I put it together from 1890 01:46:48.760 --> 01:46:51.680 books and you know, as this thing that would go 1891 01:46:51.840 --> 01:46:54.039 through the but you know, obviously it's not based on 1892 01:46:54.119 --> 01:46:58.119 my fantasies and my and he said that even though 1893 01:46:58.159 --> 01:47:02.439 I know it's fiction, I can't see it, which is 1894 01:47:02.520 --> 01:47:06.960 quite incredible. But I do think that creating that bridge 1895 01:47:07.079 --> 01:47:11.439 for the audience to walk into something as the raw 1896 01:47:11.479 --> 01:47:14.119 as the most truthful we had to fictionalize it. 1897 01:47:14.840 --> 01:47:17.039 Speaking of the audience, how was the film received when 1898 01:47:17.079 --> 01:47:17.520 it came out? 1899 01:47:18.319 --> 01:47:24.399 We launched it on eighth of March, so the Women's Day, 1900 01:47:24.720 --> 01:47:29.119 and it was also It was the same day as 1901 01:47:29.199 --> 01:47:33.560 fifty Shades of Gray came out in Sweden, so that 1902 01:47:33.840 --> 01:47:37.279 was quite good from a press point of view. So 1903 01:47:37.439 --> 01:47:39.199 it was like, we have the real thing and then 1904 01:47:39.279 --> 01:47:44.920 we have this. I did an incredible amount of press 1905 01:47:45.800 --> 01:47:49.439 also because you know, it was so spectacular. In Sweden, 1906 01:47:49.520 --> 01:47:54.720 we're not very used to acknowledging or I mean it's 1907 01:47:54.880 --> 01:48:01.239 our self. Our identity is that hierarchy between people. I 1908 01:48:01.319 --> 01:48:03.840 mean they exist kind of in a class system, but 1909 01:48:03.920 --> 01:48:06.880 we don't really talk about them if it's not like 1910 01:48:07.000 --> 01:48:11.039 in a you know, in a social democratic class system 1911 01:48:11.199 --> 01:48:14.880 kind of way, or between men and women. So that 1912 01:48:15.199 --> 01:48:18.800 was sometimes a little hard, you know, to have like 1913 01:48:18.920 --> 01:48:23.279 this asymmetric relationship that is voluntary I could, you know, 1914 01:48:24.079 --> 01:48:28.000 but I feel that we managed to approach that with 1915 01:48:28.359 --> 01:48:32.279 many interesting people in different forums, so that we could. 1916 01:48:32.880 --> 01:48:37.880 You know, in France, there is no intellectual worth or 1917 01:48:38.079 --> 01:48:42.079 name that haven't written, you know, on philosophy, on economy 1918 01:48:42.319 --> 01:48:45.359 and eroticism. You know, in Sweden it becomes very quickly 1919 01:48:45.479 --> 01:48:47.560 something that is more in the pants, you know, not 1920 01:48:47.800 --> 01:48:50.439 up here. So but I think we managed to kind 1921 01:48:50.479 --> 01:48:53.680 of you know, do that in a good way. And 1922 01:48:53.800 --> 01:48:56.960 then something that was really surprising to me is that 1923 01:48:57.680 --> 01:49:03.960 so many people identify with the characters way beyond the BDSM. 1924 01:49:04.600 --> 01:49:07.680 It was more like people that felt that I could 1925 01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:11.359 hear that they reacted that the people that feel felt 1926 01:49:11.520 --> 01:49:17.439 odd in their lives felt very much uplifted by the 1927 01:49:17.560 --> 01:49:21.520 characters in the film, which was really beautiful. People had made, 1928 01:49:21.800 --> 01:49:25.199 you know, feel Yeah, I don't know what I mean. 1929 01:49:25.239 --> 01:49:29.319 I don't remember that specifically, but I remember people coming 1930 01:49:29.399 --> 01:49:33.680 up to me and expressing that I have felt weird 1931 01:49:34.039 --> 01:49:38.079 and you know, like an outsiders from many different kind 1932 01:49:38.159 --> 01:49:44.159 of you know, felt very touched I think by the 1933 01:49:44.319 --> 01:49:49.520 characters around Kathleen and the film. But that was in Sweden, 1934 01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:54.880 and then it traveled a lot in different in different 1935 01:49:55.119 --> 01:50:00.159 countries and in many festivals. And I heard some one 1936 01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:04.239 who was working at a cinema that I met years 1937 01:50:04.359 --> 01:50:09.600 after when it came out, who said that people usually 1938 01:50:10.039 --> 01:50:12.600 had a way of talking about things when they had 1939 01:50:12.680 --> 01:50:16.680 seen a film, and he was a machine machine operator 1940 01:50:16.760 --> 01:50:19.920 in the cinema, and that he said that when people 1941 01:50:20.000 --> 01:50:23.840 had seen this film, it was quite often they were silent, 1942 01:50:24.840 --> 01:50:27.439 or it was quite awkward, or they would talk about 1943 01:50:27.640 --> 01:50:32.359 like something completely different. That he saw reactions in people 1944 01:50:32.479 --> 01:50:37.960 that he didn't usually see that. People were a little yeah, 1945 01:50:38.760 --> 01:50:43.439 but yeah, No, the film generally got Yeah. I think 1946 01:50:43.520 --> 01:50:48.239 it was received quite well, not hated, which you could. 1947 01:50:48.600 --> 01:50:55.279 Think, Yeah, after the ceremony, you made a film. At 1948 01:50:55.359 --> 01:50:57.439 least over here it's called meeting, I think is called pairing. 1949 01:50:57.880 --> 01:50:59.199 What was that experience like for you? 1950 01:51:00.199 --> 01:51:03.960 The very like interesting shift for me was that I 1951 01:51:04.079 --> 01:51:13.439 had filmed so incredibly special people, different and particular people 1952 01:51:13.640 --> 01:51:18.079 in many different ways, very intellectual and vary this, and 1953 01:51:18.359 --> 01:51:22.119 very you know, kind of spectacular is the word. You know. 1954 01:51:22.279 --> 01:51:26.359 They were all yeah, particular and spectacular in many ways. 1955 01:51:26.439 --> 01:51:31.960 I felt and doing mating, I was approaching something and 1956 01:51:32.039 --> 01:51:37.159 I did a pre I did. I worked for several 1957 01:51:37.199 --> 01:51:42.119 months interviewing like forty digital natives to It was like 1958 01:51:42.199 --> 01:51:45.560 I did this research and then I really try to 1959 01:51:45.840 --> 01:51:50.800 film like normal people and not you know, not spectacular 1960 01:51:50.880 --> 01:51:52.680 at all. And I was looking for them to be 1961 01:51:53.119 --> 01:51:56.439 different from each other in terms of where in the 1962 01:51:56.520 --> 01:52:01.239 country were filmed, and you know, different social economic whatever 1963 01:52:01.479 --> 01:52:06.319 and education. But I really try to approach them as 1964 01:52:06.880 --> 01:52:11.680 normal Swedes as possible or living in Sweden. And what 1965 01:52:11.880 --> 01:52:17.199 I learned is that everyone because I was starting out 1966 01:52:17.279 --> 01:52:21.520 also to do something like a fictional series. That was 1967 01:52:21.600 --> 01:52:24.000 the idea from the beginning, and they used this material 1968 01:52:24.119 --> 01:52:27.680 to write and then I had all these interviews. I 1969 01:52:27.840 --> 01:52:30.800 walked into people's houses where I'd never been before, I 1970 01:52:30.880 --> 01:52:34.159 put up a camera, I filmed them for between one 1971 01:52:34.239 --> 01:52:38.800 to two hours, and they were amazing and so touching, 1972 01:52:39.000 --> 01:52:43.319 and there was not one single interview that was not good. 1973 01:52:44.079 --> 01:52:48.159 It was incredible. So that taught me that when it 1974 01:52:48.239 --> 01:52:51.600 comes to casting and when it comes to people, that 1975 01:52:51.720 --> 01:52:54.199 when you talk to them about things that matter to them, 1976 01:52:55.199 --> 01:52:59.760 everyone is interesting. That was the my and I still 1977 01:53:00.119 --> 01:53:02.960 that for true because now I'm doing a very different film, 1978 01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:05.520 but it's true. 1979 01:53:06.199 --> 01:53:07.279 Well, yea, I was going to ask you, what are 1980 01:53:07.319 --> 01:53:08.279 you working on these days? 1981 01:53:09.119 --> 01:53:11.640 I'm working on three different films. 1982 01:53:11.720 --> 01:53:11.840 Now. 1983 01:53:11.880 --> 01:53:14.880 I'm in Kiruna, way up north in Sweden, and I'm 1984 01:53:14.960 --> 01:53:19.039 doing a project called What's Up Sweden that's going to air. 1985 01:53:19.319 --> 01:53:22.000 It's going to be in cinemas and Swedish television before 1986 01:53:22.159 --> 01:53:26.479 the election. But it's going to be a series of 1987 01:53:27.079 --> 01:53:31.720 miniature portraits of people all over the country basically, and 1988 01:53:32.159 --> 01:53:35.880 I'm doing the same thing. I interview people in smaller 1989 01:53:36.039 --> 01:53:40.279 communities that have gone through very big social shifts the 1990 01:53:40.399 --> 01:53:44.239 last few years. I interview them and then I ask 1991 01:53:44.319 --> 01:53:46.640 them if I can come to their homes and I 1992 01:53:47.159 --> 01:53:52.359 make like a family portrait of them, and then I'm 1993 01:53:53.279 --> 01:53:58.880 working on something Restorative Justice project. It's a program given 1994 01:53:59.079 --> 01:54:04.359 in So African prisons that targets people who have been 1995 01:54:04.640 --> 01:54:09.359 committed for very serious crimes and they go through this 1996 01:54:09.520 --> 01:54:14.279 program with the aim for them to take responsibility for 1997 01:54:14.359 --> 01:54:17.399 their crimes. And in order to take the responsibility for 1998 01:54:17.439 --> 01:54:20.880 their crimes, they need to not only admit to their crimes, 1999 01:54:20.960 --> 01:54:25.159 but they need to be able to understand the consequences 2000 01:54:25.239 --> 01:54:29.159 of their crimes in the victims' lives. And then in 2001 01:54:29.279 --> 01:54:32.920 the case that the victims want to they're supposed to meet. 2002 01:54:33.680 --> 01:54:40.000 So they're preparing both victims and perpetrators in this very 2003 01:54:40.119 --> 01:54:43.960 intense process. Yeah, and I'm trying to get a permit 2004 01:54:44.119 --> 01:54:47.479 to film that in a South African prison, and I've 2005 01:54:47.520 --> 01:54:52.000 been there. I've been to five different facilities, and I've 2006 01:54:52.079 --> 01:54:55.960 been working for this organization and I've been prepping and 2007 01:54:56.079 --> 01:54:58.920 now I'm trying for almost four years to get a 2008 01:54:58.960 --> 01:55:03.119 permit to film. So I really hope that that would 2009 01:55:03.479 --> 01:55:05.960 go through, But you know, it's a marathon and then 2010 01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:13.479 I'm filming Couple Married where Mattilasa and Carloloff and Mattilas 2011 01:55:13.560 --> 01:55:17.760 got a stroke at forty two that he incredibly it 2012 01:55:17.920 --> 01:55:21.039 was a miracle that he survived, but he's been very affected. 2013 01:55:21.199 --> 01:55:23.880 And it's about, you know, a marriage for better and 2014 01:55:23.960 --> 01:55:28.800 for worse, you could say, And very few marriages survive stroke. 2015 01:55:29.640 --> 01:55:34.239 And they're incredible together and I'm filming them and I'm 2016 01:55:34.319 --> 01:55:35.199 in my fifth year. 2017 01:55:36.079 --> 01:55:37.560 Thank you so much for your time, and thank you 2018 01:55:37.640 --> 01:55:39.960 so for being so easy to schedule with. I really 2019 01:55:40.000 --> 01:55:40.640 appreciate that. 2020 01:55:41.239 --> 01:55:41.840 You're welcome. 2021 01:56:00.119 --> 01:56:01.800 All right, we are back when we were talking about 2022 01:56:01.840 --> 01:56:05.680 the image, and it's amazing to me all of the parallels. 2023 01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:07.399 We were talking a little bit about the story of 2024 01:56:07.520 --> 01:56:10.960 Oh and this film, and I mean they're both based 2025 01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:15.159 on books by women authors from France. What they came out, 2026 01:56:15.680 --> 01:56:16.840 was it two years apart? 2027 01:56:16.960 --> 01:56:19.960 I think, yeah, I think, sorrybo I think is fifty 2028 01:56:20.000 --> 01:56:22.359 four and images fifty six the novels. 2029 01:56:22.560 --> 01:56:25.960 Yeah, and they're both written under pseudonyms of course. And 2030 01:56:26.800 --> 01:56:30.159 just to find out last week we watched a writer 2031 01:56:30.279 --> 01:56:34.079 of Oh and to see the real Pauline riage and 2032 01:56:34.279 --> 01:56:38.520 just how tender and everything she seems and just so sweet, 2033 01:56:38.680 --> 01:56:40.079 and it's just like, oh, I kind of wish you 2034 01:56:40.159 --> 01:56:43.119 were my granny, you know. And then you see Catherine 2035 01:56:43.159 --> 01:56:46.840 robe Goolay in a film like La Ceremony from twenty fourteen, 2036 01:56:47.239 --> 01:56:49.479 You're like, oh, she's the real deal. 2037 01:56:49.800 --> 01:56:53.760 Okay, I wish she was by granny. Seriously, I was that. 2038 01:56:54.439 --> 01:56:55.000 I'll take it. 2039 01:56:55.319 --> 01:56:58.239 Yeah, yeah, she's I mean, oh my god, you could 2040 01:56:58.279 --> 01:57:01.000 just make a movie about her life. Like I mean, yes, 2041 01:57:01.039 --> 01:57:03.000 obviously there's the Ceremony, but like I mean, I just 2042 01:57:03.079 --> 01:57:05.680 feel like, you know, you could even go you know, 2043 01:57:06.239 --> 01:57:08.960 as I think you you know, noted Mike. 2044 01:57:09.079 --> 01:57:09.199 You know. 2045 01:57:09.279 --> 01:57:10.920 It's like we don't even get to talk to her 2046 01:57:11.039 --> 01:57:16.079 until like halfway through this documentary, which is about her 2047 01:57:17.520 --> 01:57:21.760 life as a dominatrix. She's still alive. Katheryn rog Gray 2048 01:57:21.840 --> 01:57:24.039 is still alive. She's ninety five years old, and she's 2049 01:57:24.079 --> 01:57:27.520 still as far as I know, still still doing it. 2050 01:57:27.680 --> 01:57:30.000 Oh yeah, she's twenty four to seven. We talked last 2051 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:33.760 week about twenty four to seven BDSM relationships. This is 2052 01:57:33.800 --> 01:57:36.239 twenty four to seven where she lives all of this. 2053 01:57:37.359 --> 01:57:40.840 And I went back to and I watched a film 2054 01:57:40.920 --> 01:57:45.640 called Erotica Journey into Female sexuality from ninety seven and 2055 01:57:46.359 --> 01:57:49.960 that had a interviews with both Catherine Robe Goolay and 2056 01:57:50.439 --> 01:57:54.520 Dominic Arie, and I think Ari was just I think 2057 01:57:54.600 --> 01:57:58.560 she passed away pretty soon thereafter, and Catherine Robert Goolay 2058 01:57:58.920 --> 01:58:02.560 just I'd love that she's wearing the outfit that we 2059 01:58:02.640 --> 01:58:05.199 see in some of the scenes inside of the ceremony 2060 01:58:05.640 --> 01:58:08.600 where it's like it's almost like she's mourning. It's like a. 2061 01:58:10.199 --> 01:58:10.479 Veil. 2062 01:58:10.720 --> 01:58:15.119 Yeah, and it's just like I'm protecting my myself even 2063 01:58:15.159 --> 01:58:17.760 though everybody knows who I am and all this, even 2064 01:58:17.800 --> 01:58:19.760 though I guess it also took a long time for 2065 01:58:19.840 --> 01:58:21.840 them to figure out who wrote the image. 2066 01:58:22.720 --> 01:58:27.159 Yeah, so very similar again, similar like kind of storylines, 2067 01:58:27.159 --> 01:58:30.159 even though they came out a few years apart. So, yeah, 2068 01:58:30.199 --> 01:58:32.640 so when when the image came out, obviously it's under 2069 01:58:32.640 --> 01:58:37.199 a masculine pseudonym berg and there was a similar debate 2070 01:58:37.279 --> 01:58:40.399 about authorship and you know kind of you know, there 2071 01:58:40.439 --> 01:58:42.720 were some hints like and again we're sort of I 2072 01:58:42.800 --> 01:58:44.560 talked a little bit in the last episode about sort 2073 01:58:44.600 --> 01:58:47.039 of the French publishing world at this time and the 2074 01:58:47.119 --> 01:58:49.520 intelligency and all these people knew each other, so like, 2075 01:58:49.680 --> 01:58:50.760 you know, it was kind of like they were, and 2076 01:58:50.800 --> 01:58:52.800 they were like the sort of intellectual, you know, the 2077 01:58:52.840 --> 01:58:56.680 cultural intellectual like stars of that time, and and so 2078 01:58:56.960 --> 01:59:00.720 like you know, people knew obviously everyone who was because 2079 01:59:00.760 --> 01:59:03.399 he was like, you know, the darling of the you know, 2080 01:59:03.880 --> 01:59:06.600 new French new novel. You know, I don't think anyone 2081 01:59:06.680 --> 01:59:10.479 necessarily thought like his wife actually it wasn't his wife 2082 01:59:10.520 --> 01:59:12.199 at the time. They married like the year after this 2083 01:59:12.319 --> 01:59:15.960 was written, but you know, his his partner had written 2084 01:59:16.000 --> 01:59:17.319 this book. I mean there was kind of a and 2085 01:59:17.439 --> 01:59:20.159 and there's also some like sort of interesting I think 2086 01:59:20.279 --> 01:59:23.800 debate around the introduction to this book, because the introduction 2087 01:59:23.880 --> 01:59:25.680 is supposedly written by Pauline Rayage. 2088 01:59:26.560 --> 01:59:28.800 Yeah, that seemed very strange. 2089 01:59:29.640 --> 01:59:31.359 You know, I've read there's debate about that, and I 2090 01:59:31.399 --> 01:59:33.880 think if you read it, it doesn't really seem My 2091 01:59:34.159 --> 01:59:36.920 impression is that it is not her style. So I 2092 01:59:37.039 --> 01:59:41.039 think the preface supposedly by Pauline Rayage is probably either 2093 01:59:41.199 --> 01:59:46.359 catching herself or possibly Ellen. It's dedicated to pr Pauline. 2094 01:59:46.439 --> 01:59:48.520 You would think Pauline Rayage, right, but I think it 2095 01:59:48.680 --> 01:59:50.960 was I can't remember whose book I read this in, 2096 01:59:51.079 --> 01:59:55.680 but some some author positive that it pr because ellenro 2097 01:59:55.760 --> 01:59:58.399 Gria's middle name is Paul, so it'd be Paul Robe 2098 01:59:58.399 --> 02:00:02.239 Grier pr someone theory interesting but yeah, so again, so 2099 02:00:02.319 --> 02:00:05.000 lots of questions about authorship, and you know, I don't 2100 02:00:05.039 --> 02:00:07.680 know at what point. I mean, we know a lot 2101 02:00:07.680 --> 02:00:10.479 about the genesis of the story of Always a Novel. 2102 02:00:10.520 --> 02:00:12.880 We don't know as much, or at least not as 2103 02:00:12.960 --> 02:00:17.039 much as published about how the image was written, like 2104 02:00:17.119 --> 02:00:19.239 how it came into creation. I mean, you know, obviously 2105 02:00:19.520 --> 02:00:21.399 Rob Gray was a writer, and you know, he probably 2106 02:00:21.439 --> 02:00:25.920 encouraged Katrine to write, and they had a very unique 2107 02:00:25.920 --> 02:00:31.000 and strange relationship, much different from Dominique Guri and Jean Paulin. 2108 02:00:31.560 --> 02:00:34.479 I think they met in Turkey, uh while he was 2109 02:00:34.560 --> 02:00:37.319 I don't know, I don't know if he was working 2110 02:00:37.319 --> 02:00:39.760 on a film or something like that, but they met. 2111 02:00:40.000 --> 02:00:43.119 She was, you know, younger than him, I think a bit, 2112 02:00:43.680 --> 02:00:46.600 and she's she's a very if you ever, I don't 2113 02:00:46.600 --> 02:00:48.119 know if you really get the sense of this movie, 2114 02:00:48.199 --> 02:00:50.840 but she is like a tiny, tiny woman. She's in 2115 02:00:50.960 --> 02:00:54.880 some of Roub Grey's films actually, as she's in Le Mortel, Uh, 2116 02:00:55.039 --> 02:00:58.960 she's in Trans Europe Express. Like she's this like super 2117 02:00:59.039 --> 02:01:01.479 tiny petite woman. So yeah, and you see her in 2118 02:01:01.520 --> 02:01:03.600 some of the home video shots as a younger woman 2119 02:01:03.760 --> 02:01:08.439 in in the ceremony. But they met and I guess, 2120 02:01:09.319 --> 02:01:13.600 uh Rob gria Arorie is basically said to her, you 2121 02:01:13.720 --> 02:01:15.640 know I that you know, he said he loved her, 2122 02:01:15.680 --> 02:01:19.960 but he said, you know, I have very certain desires. 2123 02:01:20.119 --> 02:01:22.319 You know, I need a woman who you know, He's like, 2124 02:01:22.399 --> 02:01:24.920 I I he's I hate, I hate this quote, but 2125 02:01:25.000 --> 02:01:27.000 it is a quote. It is something like I I 2126 02:01:27.039 --> 02:01:30.159 think it's from that the Erotica movie that you were 2127 02:01:30.239 --> 02:01:30.840 just talking about. 2128 02:01:30.880 --> 02:01:31.000 Mike. 2129 02:01:31.439 --> 02:01:33.680 He said, like I want to hurt a woman, and like, 2130 02:01:33.760 --> 02:01:34.960 you know, because he's a you know, he sort of 2131 02:01:34.960 --> 02:01:37.720 admits he's a sadist and that he needs a woman. 2132 02:01:38.119 --> 02:01:41.560 He needs his wife to kind of fulfill that role 2133 02:01:41.640 --> 02:01:43.119 for him. And it's kind of why he says, like, oh, 2134 02:01:43.239 --> 02:01:44.920 I thought I would never find someone who'd be able 2135 02:01:44.920 --> 02:01:46.920 to do this for me. But Katrine, being a very 2136 02:01:47.520 --> 02:01:50.920 sort of unique person and who had already kind of 2137 02:01:50.960 --> 02:01:53.479 had adits that she had these kinds of feelings and 2138 02:01:54.640 --> 02:01:57.479 you know ideas in her head, was was amenable to this. 2139 02:01:58.439 --> 02:02:02.600 And so their relationship, you know, he he was the dominant, 2140 02:02:02.640 --> 02:02:04.720 she was the submissive and they actually had a contract, 2141 02:02:04.760 --> 02:02:06.840 like a written contract. And if you there's a Vanity 2142 02:02:06.920 --> 02:02:10.079 Fair article that reproduces the contract, so you can go 2143 02:02:10.199 --> 02:02:12.720 if you I don't, uh, you can you can google 2144 02:02:12.800 --> 02:02:16.479 it actually like contract Rubri and see, like she never 2145 02:02:16.640 --> 02:02:20.319 signed it, but she sort of willingly submitted to it, 2146 02:02:20.439 --> 02:02:23.399 and as she says in the ceremony, she did this 2147 02:02:24.000 --> 02:02:27.279 with the purpose that like it kind of granted her ironically, 2148 02:02:27.359 --> 02:02:30.600 it granted her the freedom to do other things in 2149 02:02:30.680 --> 02:02:32.680 life that she wanted to do. You know, like she said, 2150 02:02:32.680 --> 02:02:34.960 I submitted, you know, I submitted to this this type 2151 02:02:35.000 --> 02:02:38.439 of relationship, you know, and you know sort of in exchange, 2152 02:02:38.439 --> 02:02:40.039 you know, he took care of me. I had the 2153 02:02:40.079 --> 02:02:42.039 freedom to you know, go anywhere and do what I 2154 02:02:42.119 --> 02:02:44.039 wanted to. And you know she actually you know, had 2155 02:02:44.079 --> 02:02:48.199 affairs with other people and you know traveled and just 2156 02:02:48.279 --> 02:02:50.560 did you know, just had it. Basically she just does 2157 02:02:50.640 --> 02:02:53.119 that submitting to that type of relationship gave her the 2158 02:02:53.199 --> 02:02:56.840 independence that she so desired. So they had like this 2159 02:02:57.039 --> 02:02:59.279 and they were married for she They were married until 2160 02:02:59.319 --> 02:03:01.119 his death and like I think two thousand and eight, 2161 02:03:01.159 --> 02:03:03.960 so they were probably married like fifty plus years, and 2162 02:03:04.399 --> 02:03:06.800 you know, had this relationship at some point, and I'm 2163 02:03:06.800 --> 02:03:09.640 actually not sure what she She's written another book called 2164 02:03:10.319 --> 02:03:12.079 The Rights of Women, where she kind of talks a 2165 02:03:12.119 --> 02:03:17.359 little bit about her, you know, her philosophies and ideas 2166 02:03:17.399 --> 02:03:22.600 and experiences in sm M and John de Burgh. Yeah, exactly, 2167 02:03:22.760 --> 02:03:26.520 and which is how she's now also now known professionally 2168 02:03:26.560 --> 02:03:28.359 as a dominatrix. You see her referred to in the 2169 02:03:28.399 --> 02:03:29.560 film as Jean de Berg. 2170 02:03:30.359 --> 02:03:30.560 Yeah. 2171 02:03:30.640 --> 02:03:32.960 So at some point, you know, she starts appearing on 2172 02:03:33.000 --> 02:03:36.399 French TV in like the eighties doing interviews as you know, 2173 02:03:36.520 --> 02:03:39.239 kind of I'm a professional dominatrix and you know, makes headlines, 2174 02:03:39.279 --> 02:03:41.520 you know, the you know, and people knew who she was. 2175 02:03:41.680 --> 02:03:43.119 So it's like, you know, it's like even though she 2176 02:03:43.159 --> 02:03:44.960 went by under the student and people knew that she 2177 02:03:45.079 --> 02:03:47.119 was Rob Grie's wife and kind of like, oh my god, 2178 02:03:47.199 --> 02:03:50.560 the you know, wife of this incredibly famous, well respected 2179 02:03:50.760 --> 02:03:54.560 exactly as a scandal. I don't remember exactly how that 2180 02:03:54.680 --> 02:03:57.319 kind of transferred over, but I think at some point, 2181 02:03:57.439 --> 02:04:01.840 like she realized, you know, she wanted to you know, 2182 02:04:02.039 --> 02:04:04.399 be a dominant rather than submissive or maybe and maybe 2183 02:04:04.479 --> 02:04:06.560 she still was a missive in a relationship with Rogrier, 2184 02:04:06.680 --> 02:04:09.479 but Yeah, it's it's so interesting to see kind of 2185 02:04:09.640 --> 02:04:13.039 like her, this trajectory of hers and you know, now 2186 02:04:13.119 --> 02:04:16.760 she's like the sort of Grand Dome dominatrix, you know, 2187 02:04:17.079 --> 02:04:20.239 and coordinating all these ceremonies as the title refers to. 2188 02:04:20.439 --> 02:04:23.159 And yeah, I found it interesting that they don't call 2189 02:04:23.199 --> 02:04:25.439 them scenes over there, that they call them ceremonies. 2190 02:04:26.279 --> 02:04:29.399 She was, uh trained in the theater. She she really 2191 02:04:29.479 --> 02:04:31.560 was interested in theater when she was younger, like you know, 2192 02:04:31.640 --> 02:04:34.399 before she met Rob Grier. And so I think and 2193 02:04:34.439 --> 02:04:36.840 I think a few people in the documentary allude to 2194 02:04:36.920 --> 02:04:40.319 this that you know, part of it's this theatricality, uh 2195 02:04:40.520 --> 02:04:42.399 that she you know, in her it's part of her 2196 02:04:42.439 --> 02:04:45.319 interest in being a dominators is not necessarily like sexual, 2197 02:04:45.439 --> 02:04:48.760 but it's like wanting to wanting to coordinate a scene, 2198 02:04:48.960 --> 02:04:51.600 like wanting to you know, pick out the way everything 2199 02:04:51.720 --> 02:04:54.560 looks and like you know, sort of coordinate everything and 2200 02:04:54.880 --> 02:04:57.000 you know, you know, direct it. Even so, I think 2201 02:04:57.039 --> 02:04:59.199 that kind of relates to this sort of interest she 2202 02:04:59.279 --> 02:05:02.000 had when she was younger in the theater and performance, 2203 02:05:02.039 --> 02:05:04.119 because so they're all kind of a performance. 2204 02:05:04.479 --> 02:05:06.640 Mentioning the whole thing of calling it a ceremony instead 2205 02:05:06.640 --> 02:05:09.239 of a scene. One thing I really loved that was 2206 02:05:09.960 --> 02:05:11.640 a quote I think it was from like the eighties 2207 02:05:11.680 --> 02:05:15.840 interview that they show up with her and the ceremony 2208 02:05:16.359 --> 02:05:18.920 where she meant she mentioned, I'm going to mess up 2209 02:05:18.960 --> 02:05:22.520 the quote cell paraphrase, but basically kind of blending the 2210 02:05:22.640 --> 02:05:26.600 sacred with the you know, the profane. She doesn't say profane, 2211 02:05:26.640 --> 02:05:29.439 but basically mixing that something, you know, a sense of 2212 02:05:29.520 --> 02:05:32.760 the sacred with something that people on the outside view 2213 02:05:32.880 --> 02:05:36.840 is very profane, is very sort of dirty, And I 2214 02:05:36.960 --> 02:05:39.479 really love that. I thought that was such a such 2215 02:05:39.520 --> 02:05:41.800 a great way to hear it phrased, and what we 2216 02:05:41.880 --> 02:05:44.439 get to see, which I love, how beautifully shot. All 2217 02:05:44.520 --> 02:05:48.279 of the the ceremony scenes are gorgeous, and what a 2218 02:05:48.439 --> 02:05:51.800 space to have, such a what a wonderful building. I 2219 02:05:51.880 --> 02:05:54.960 kept thinking, like somebody needs to do something for those 2220 02:05:55.039 --> 02:05:57.560 on a budget, Like what do you do if you 2221 02:05:57.640 --> 02:05:59.600 live in a tidy part and you're trying to make 2222 02:05:59.640 --> 02:06:03.840 a living. One thing that I really thought was fascinating, 2223 02:06:03.920 --> 02:06:07.560 especially comparing it to watching the image, is the tenderness 2224 02:06:08.520 --> 02:06:13.119 and the sense of real trust and respect that all 2225 02:06:13.239 --> 02:06:16.560 of the mistresses have with their I don't like using 2226 02:06:16.560 --> 02:06:19.880 the term slaves, but you know, with their slaves. I 2227 02:06:20.000 --> 02:06:21.840 just thought that was something that was actually very sweet 2228 02:06:21.920 --> 02:06:24.760 and something I kind of again where I wish it 2229 02:06:24.840 --> 02:06:26.319 maybe kind of wish we had more of that with 2230 02:06:26.479 --> 02:06:30.079 Claire and and but I also kind of like, well, 2231 02:06:30.159 --> 02:06:32.159 that's a different story though, And I think Claire and 2232 02:06:32.199 --> 02:06:35.640 Ann's dynamic is a little more murky. But that's kind 2233 02:06:35.680 --> 02:06:39.399 of the beauty of writing erotica, making erotic films is 2234 02:06:39.520 --> 02:06:40.840 I think a lot of people on that side just 2235 02:06:40.920 --> 02:06:45.680 views as like anything sexual is just strictly for prurient purposes. 2236 02:06:45.800 --> 02:06:47.479 But it's like, well, no, you're an artist, you can 2237 02:06:47.560 --> 02:06:51.560 explore it to explore themes of humanity. Humans were messy, 2238 02:06:51.720 --> 02:06:53.479 we were one of the We were absolutely the messiest 2239 02:06:53.520 --> 02:06:57.199 primates on this planet, and why not use art to 2240 02:06:57.279 --> 02:07:00.439 be like, Yeah, sex gets messy, love gets messy, power 2241 02:07:00.520 --> 02:07:03.920 gets messy, and when you're mixing all of those ingredients 2242 02:07:03.960 --> 02:07:05.720 together with some people that may or may not be 2243 02:07:05.920 --> 02:07:09.680 quite damaged, it's going to get very interesting. And that's 2244 02:07:09.720 --> 02:07:11.399 why I think it makes like for such a I 2245 02:07:11.520 --> 02:07:13.680 love that we're writing to discuss this film and the 2246 02:07:13.880 --> 02:07:16.359 and as these artists, I can't believe you guys are 2247 02:07:16.359 --> 02:07:18.800 almost making me want to watch the Story of Oh again. 2248 02:07:19.159 --> 02:07:22.880 I've read the book. I was so disappointed with it. Yeah, 2249 02:07:22.960 --> 02:07:26.079 I'll just yeah, I'll read I have I have the book, 2250 02:07:26.279 --> 02:07:29.119 I have not I've not revisited it in a long time. 2251 02:07:29.199 --> 02:07:30.760 I think I'll do that instead, and then I'll just 2252 02:07:30.800 --> 02:07:33.119 watch Terryama anyway, which I would do anyways. 2253 02:07:34.279 --> 02:07:37.079 Obviously, like both of these films are not just body parts, 2254 02:07:37.079 --> 02:07:39.119 and the books are not you know, these are these 2255 02:07:39.159 --> 02:07:42.039 are stories of like an incredible amount of character development, 2256 02:07:42.199 --> 02:07:44.600 especially for the women characters. And I think both Oh 2257 02:07:44.680 --> 02:07:47.079 and Claire, I think what both of them are are 2258 02:07:47.199 --> 02:07:50.520 clearly like on a journey, and we see them in 2259 02:07:50.560 --> 02:07:52.560 the Story of All we kind of see everything through 2260 02:07:52.760 --> 02:07:54.880 Oh's point of view and and and even though in 2261 02:07:54.960 --> 02:07:57.079 the image we don't really see Claire's point of view 2262 02:07:57.119 --> 02:07:58.640 and she's kind of opaque to us in a way, 2263 02:07:58.680 --> 02:08:02.239 we still through through Jean's perception. I think we kind 2264 02:08:02.279 --> 02:08:05.760 of feel her emotion. We we we get the sense of, like, 2265 02:08:06.000 --> 02:08:09.079 you know, how she she changes as she progresses towards 2266 02:08:09.119 --> 02:08:11.399 the end of the novel. And I just think that's 2267 02:08:11.520 --> 02:08:14.000 I mean, that's just proof that these are just literary classics. 2268 02:08:14.119 --> 02:08:16.920 Like like, no, you can't really question that, you know, 2269 02:08:17.000 --> 02:08:20.840 I just think they're they're just beautiful stories about human 2270 02:08:20.920 --> 02:08:23.520 beings and all their faults and all their you know, 2271 02:08:23.800 --> 02:08:26.039 their their messiness, as you were saying, like, you know, 2272 02:08:26.520 --> 02:08:28.840 and I think it's it's so important to remember that 2273 02:08:28.960 --> 02:08:32.159 that these are important works of literature that we should 2274 02:08:32.199 --> 02:08:35.920 still read and think about and we shouldn't dismiss them 2275 02:08:35.960 --> 02:08:38.560 as you know, kind of oh, well this is you know, 2276 02:08:39.359 --> 02:08:41.159 I don't you know, like X, Y and Z that 2277 02:08:41.239 --> 02:08:42.840 happens in this and like but yeah, but there's still 2278 02:08:42.880 --> 02:08:45.039 so many things you can talk about that you don't 2279 02:08:45.039 --> 02:08:46.600 even have anything to do with that, just you know, 2280 02:08:46.720 --> 02:08:49.680 character development, just you know, sort of the way they 2281 02:08:49.800 --> 02:08:53.279 move through the text is just so interesting to me. 2282 02:08:54.159 --> 02:08:56.479 So the image comes out two years after Story of 2283 02:08:56.680 --> 02:08:59.760 L and as for me, the image is a gut 2284 02:09:00.079 --> 02:09:03.920 unch and accomplishes so much more in forty some pages 2285 02:09:04.560 --> 02:09:07.159 than Story of O does in a few hundred. It 2286 02:09:07.239 --> 02:09:09.199 feels like a few hundred pages. I'm not sure how 2287 02:09:09.239 --> 02:09:11.600 long the actual book is. I know it took the 2288 02:09:11.880 --> 02:09:15.239 author or took the reader seven and a half hours 2289 02:09:15.319 --> 02:09:18.159 to get through Story of Oh. I think they could 2290 02:09:18.159 --> 02:09:20.880 probably get through the image in what do you think 2291 02:09:20.960 --> 02:09:23.239 two hours and hour? I mean, I guess it really 2292 02:09:23.279 --> 02:09:25.239 feels like it is a screenplay. I think I would 2293 02:09:25.279 --> 02:09:27.079 read about two hours to get. 2294 02:09:26.960 --> 02:09:29.439 Through the one hundred and twenty pages I think, versus 2295 02:09:29.600 --> 02:09:31.520 I don't have the image next or I'm sorry, I 2296 02:09:31.520 --> 02:09:33.760 don't have story vone next to me. But the image 2297 02:09:33.760 --> 02:09:35.560 is about one hundred and twenty pages, which is pretty short. 2298 02:09:35.720 --> 02:09:38.439 On the kindle lap that I was reading it was in. 2299 02:09:38.600 --> 02:09:41.039 You know, you can't really trust the page numbers on 2300 02:09:41.159 --> 02:09:43.600 that thing. Let's say I got through it very darn quickly. 2301 02:09:44.279 --> 02:09:47.439 And when it comes to the story of Oh, movie 2302 02:09:47.720 --> 02:09:50.840 and the image, you know, I didn't know that the 2303 02:09:51.000 --> 02:09:53.319 image was supposed to come out before story of O. 2304 02:09:53.439 --> 02:09:55.439 And it feels like the way that story of Oh, 2305 02:09:55.560 --> 02:09:58.479 the book eats the lunch of the image because it 2306 02:09:58.600 --> 02:10:00.960 comes out first and really makes such a huge splash. 2307 02:10:01.079 --> 02:10:03.600 And it's not like you go through you know, your 2308 02:10:03.680 --> 02:10:06.279 dirty bookstores and you see the image usually see a 2309 02:10:06.479 --> 02:10:09.680 story of Oh. It just feels like it's not nearly 2310 02:10:09.720 --> 02:10:11.600 as well known as what I'm trying to say. And 2311 02:10:11.680 --> 02:10:14.680 then when it comes to the image movie and the 2312 02:10:14.800 --> 02:10:17.640 story of Oh, again, it feels like the image is 2313 02:10:17.880 --> 02:10:20.359 just not nearly as known, and for me, for both 2314 02:10:20.399 --> 02:10:23.520 of those, it's like, Wow, this one really hits home 2315 02:10:23.560 --> 02:10:26.520 for me, not the earlier one. Not trying to like 2316 02:10:26.640 --> 02:10:29.039 set up a fight between Story of O and the image, 2317 02:10:29.319 --> 02:10:32.119 it just feels like I wish that this had made 2318 02:10:32.199 --> 02:10:35.479 more of a splash, because again, I guess that's some 2319 02:10:35.680 --> 02:10:38.840 p humor there, the whole idea of this being so 2320 02:10:39.079 --> 02:10:42.279 hard to find for so many years. It wasn't like 2321 02:10:42.439 --> 02:10:45.119 Story of Oh, where it was so much easier to find. 2322 02:10:45.520 --> 02:10:47.800 And then of course there's no sequels. You know, we 2323 02:10:47.880 --> 02:10:51.840 talked about the whole Oh a verse last time. Man, 2324 02:10:52.399 --> 02:10:55.239 you got Oh being a secret agent going over to 2325 02:10:56.279 --> 02:11:00.159 you know, Hong Kong or Japan, and you know, being 2326 02:11:00.199 --> 02:11:03.159 part of a revolutionary Chinese war and all these things. 2327 02:11:03.479 --> 02:11:05.399 You don't have that. I mean, I guess that's kind 2328 02:11:05.399 --> 02:11:07.720 of like why we still talk about Emmanuel is that 2329 02:11:07.840 --> 02:11:11.439 there's like just countless of Manuel things as opposed to 2330 02:11:12.159 --> 02:11:14.520 And I'm sorry I didn't know that it actually was books, 2331 02:11:14.520 --> 02:11:16.720 and now I feel like I am obligated to read 2332 02:11:16.800 --> 02:11:18.560 the Book of Emmanuel. I just thought it was a 2333 02:11:18.640 --> 02:11:19.279 movie series. 2334 02:11:20.159 --> 02:11:22.960 Yep, it's a book. It is it is a book. 2335 02:11:23.000 --> 02:11:25.239 Now, Jessica teaches me all kinds of things. 2336 02:11:26.199 --> 02:11:28.279 This is, this is I mean, Mike, you're really getting 2337 02:11:28.319 --> 02:11:30.600 to the crux of kind of why I wanted to 2338 02:11:30.680 --> 02:11:34.119 talk about these movies and books together. Both of them 2339 02:11:34.239 --> 02:11:37.359 as films and their literary history are are tied up 2340 02:11:37.399 --> 02:11:40.239 together in a lot of ways. And and you're definitely right. 2341 02:11:40.239 --> 02:11:42.760 I don't think the image the book or the film 2342 02:11:42.880 --> 02:11:46.159 gets the kind of attention it deserves compared to something 2343 02:11:46.239 --> 02:11:48.399 like Story of Oh and why that is I don't know, 2344 02:11:48.479 --> 02:11:50.479 I mean, at least in terms if we're looking at 2345 02:11:50.479 --> 02:11:53.359 it in terms of the film. You know, yes, it's 2346 02:11:53.439 --> 02:11:56.600 as you point out, like it's you know, Mesker did 2347 02:11:56.640 --> 02:11:58.520 this before there was going to be a Story of 2348 02:11:58.560 --> 02:12:00.960 Old movie and then it got delayed because of legal 2349 02:12:01.000 --> 02:12:03.760 issues that were happening in the US and his fear 2350 02:12:03.880 --> 02:12:06.720 of being incriminated for because this is when the cool 2351 02:12:06.800 --> 02:12:10.239 conversation about like, you know, is portion pornography, you know, 2352 02:12:10.319 --> 02:12:13.039 hardcore pornography be illegal And for a while it was 2353 02:12:13.119 --> 02:12:15.239 like there was such uncertainty that he was like and 2354 02:12:15.359 --> 02:12:16.840 and again this is part of what caused him to 2355 02:12:16.840 --> 02:12:19.399 take his name, you know, to adopt the name Henry 2356 02:12:19.439 --> 02:12:21.640 Paris is because he was afraid of you know, making 2357 02:12:22.359 --> 02:12:24.000 but he doesn't know Henry Paris for the image. But 2358 02:12:24.159 --> 02:12:26.720 you know, he presumably because it became before. 2359 02:12:26.840 --> 02:12:29.640 But what was it? He shot the entire the afternoon 2360 02:12:29.880 --> 02:12:33.199 private afternoons of Pamela Man while he was waiting for 2361 02:12:33.319 --> 02:12:34.399 the image to be released. 2362 02:12:35.199 --> 02:12:36.600 Yeah, that's true, that's true. 2363 02:12:36.800 --> 02:12:37.000 Yeah. 2364 02:12:37.359 --> 02:12:39.079 So yeah, so it was like it was shot, I 2365 02:12:39.119 --> 02:12:41.680 can't remember. It was sometime in like it was shot 2366 02:12:41.720 --> 02:12:45.479 in seventy three. According to the Realtor Report article, there's 2367 02:12:45.560 --> 02:12:47.920 lots of things that sort of complicated things that happened 2368 02:12:47.960 --> 02:12:50.079 during production. Again, please read the article. 2369 02:12:50.159 --> 02:12:50.720 It's so great. 2370 02:12:51.000 --> 02:12:53.279 And then, like I said, this whole legal case, you know, 2371 02:12:53.359 --> 02:12:55.560 sort of held it up even further. And and in 2372 02:12:55.640 --> 02:12:58.199 the interim that's when story of the story of O 2373 02:12:58.359 --> 02:13:00.640 film came out and it kind of basically stole the 2374 02:13:00.720 --> 02:13:03.359 thunder of the image, like you know it, you know, 2375 02:13:03.520 --> 02:13:07.000 just kind of you know, And although to be honest, 2376 02:13:07.039 --> 02:13:08.960 I mean, there was such a zeitgeist as I was 2377 02:13:08.960 --> 02:13:11.520 talking about the last episode for the kind of BDSM 2378 02:13:11.840 --> 02:13:13.359 kind of content in cinema. 2379 02:13:13.760 --> 02:13:14.560 There was so much of it. 2380 02:13:14.960 --> 02:13:17.640 It wasn't as novel as it might have been if 2381 02:13:17.680 --> 02:13:19.640 it had actually come out in like, you know, seventy three, 2382 02:13:19.760 --> 02:13:22.760 seventy four before the Story of O hit theaters. And 2383 02:13:22.840 --> 02:13:25.560 as Redley Metska points out, he himself thinks it's a 2384 02:13:25.600 --> 02:13:28.279 better film than the Story of O, so he agreas 2385 02:13:28.319 --> 02:13:28.720 with the Hut. 2386 02:13:29.439 --> 02:13:31.760 The fact that it's skirting that hardcore line could not 2387 02:13:31.880 --> 02:13:35.439 have helped it, though, at least in the US. And 2388 02:13:35.560 --> 02:13:37.680 that was such a such a fascinating and such a 2389 02:13:37.760 --> 02:13:41.079 strange time for softcore at erotic cinema in the US, 2390 02:13:41.119 --> 02:13:43.479 because you were seeing films that were softcore that were 2391 02:13:43.520 --> 02:13:46.880 starting to kind of flirt. Tide was turning. Yeah, one 2392 02:13:46.920 --> 02:13:50.720 Steep Throat Hits and Porto Chic. I mean, even before 2393 02:13:50.840 --> 02:13:53.479 Deep Throat you have something like you know, Bill Osco's Mona. 2394 02:13:54.079 --> 02:13:55.640 Things were shifting and it's kind of like a pain 2395 02:13:55.680 --> 02:13:57.680 door's box. You can't you can't really go back to 2396 02:13:57.840 --> 02:14:00.479 just like you know, even though softcore still, I mean, 2397 02:14:00.600 --> 02:14:03.880 especially once Cable hit. Yeah, as any of us children 2398 02:14:03.920 --> 02:14:07.920 of the eighties that were sneaking to watch set of Acts. 2399 02:14:08.840 --> 02:14:12.239 Speaking of the eighties, though, the whole Meast Report and 2400 02:14:12.359 --> 02:14:15.600 all the scuttle butt that came out from that that 2401 02:14:16.000 --> 02:14:19.960 prevented so many BDSM videos, like you could not have 2402 02:14:20.199 --> 02:14:21.840 sex with someone if they were tied up. 2403 02:14:22.199 --> 02:14:25.079 It's completely wild and it's and the sad thing is 2404 02:14:25.279 --> 02:14:28.119 you had a mix of companies that were just butchering there. 2405 02:14:28.600 --> 02:14:31.760 In some cases their main prints. God yeah, raw Deal 2406 02:14:32.800 --> 02:14:34.800 and it's something for up third Yeah, because like when 2407 02:14:34.840 --> 02:14:37.319 we when You, which it's one of my favorite Projection 2408 02:14:37.399 --> 02:14:40.239 Booth episodes ever, the one on Raw Talent. There's no 2409 02:14:40.359 --> 02:14:43.439 BDSM in that film. There's nothing in that film like 2410 02:14:43.560 --> 02:14:49.920 he Jerry Butler masturbates in a raw chicken a turkey. 2411 02:14:49.960 --> 02:14:51.960 Oh sorry, I thought it was almost like a cornish 2412 02:14:52.000 --> 02:14:53.279 game hit. I remember it being kind of like a 2413 02:14:53.359 --> 02:14:55.920 small little dude, I'm. 2414 02:14:55.800 --> 02:14:57.720 Just getting ready for Thanksgiving. 2415 02:14:57.359 --> 02:14:59.680 That's all sor right. Well, see if you're vegetarian, you 2416 02:14:59.720 --> 02:15:02.479 do have worry about it because he's not having sex 2417 02:15:02.520 --> 02:15:04.279 with a tofurkey, you know. And then there's like a 2418 02:15:04.359 --> 02:15:06.920 fight scene at Cafe Flesh, which thank god, we finally 2419 02:15:07.079 --> 02:15:10.399 now have uncut the two scenes. There's a girl that's 2420 02:15:10.439 --> 02:15:13.399 restrained while two women are having sex. The girl that's restrained, 2421 02:15:13.520 --> 02:15:18.479 not nobody's touching her. That got cut. Max getting possibly 2422 02:15:18.640 --> 02:15:22.880 murdered off screen that was cut if like they were 2423 02:15:23.000 --> 02:15:27.319 making wild decisions, but it was a bit of so 2424 02:15:27.439 --> 02:15:31.159 cirt because it's consenting. It's consenting adults. I don't care 2425 02:15:31.279 --> 02:15:35.199 if it's like if it's fisting, if it's water sports whatever. 2426 02:15:35.560 --> 02:15:37.359 If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it. 2427 02:15:37.560 --> 02:15:40.000 But I mean, but it's like anything with the government, right, 2428 02:15:40.079 --> 02:15:42.880 It's like they were doing shit that was way worse, 2429 02:15:43.039 --> 02:15:46.039 and it's like, oh, look at these pornographers. Don't look 2430 02:15:46.039 --> 02:15:49.439 at what we're doing. It's a smoke screen. Censorship is 2431 02:15:49.479 --> 02:15:52.319 always a smoke screen for something that's actually really insidious 2432 02:15:52.359 --> 02:15:53.880 going on that has nothing to do with art. 2433 02:15:54.479 --> 02:15:57.600 I think I picked up that Cafe flesh set. Are 2434 02:15:57.640 --> 02:15:58.119 you on that? 2435 02:15:58.960 --> 02:16:00.720 I am in the lip did a disshow? 2436 02:16:00.800 --> 02:16:02.760 Okay, that's believe. 2437 02:16:03.279 --> 02:16:07.319 Yeah, I got it, toun sweet case in point. Actually, 2438 02:16:07.720 --> 02:16:10.039 going back to projection booth history, I remember when we 2439 02:16:10.079 --> 02:16:12.920 were prepping for water Power, you would send an anima 2440 02:16:13.000 --> 02:16:16.279 bandit movie with Sharon Mitchell from like the early nineties, 2441 02:16:17.359 --> 02:16:23.079 and there was no enemas. It was like PG thirty Bradnicallyay, 2442 02:16:24.399 --> 02:16:26.560 it was like an R. It was not even like 2443 02:16:26.680 --> 02:16:29.800 a soft ar baby it was because that was like 2444 02:16:29.920 --> 02:16:35.040 how I feel poor Anima people back then, Like you know, 2445 02:16:35.399 --> 02:16:37.719 like I mean, it's not my thing as much as 2446 02:16:37.760 --> 02:16:39.239 I joke about it because I think it's funny and 2447 02:16:39.280 --> 02:16:42.639 I'm basically beavis, but but like you imagine these poor 2448 02:16:42.680 --> 02:16:44.840 people being like, how what do you do with that? 2449 02:16:45.200 --> 02:16:46.760 What do you even do with that? And also I 2450 02:16:46.840 --> 02:16:50.000 mean it's literally it's so silly, like who's I'm off 2451 02:16:50.280 --> 02:16:54.559 I'm offended by h you know, by horrible Hollywood movies 2452 02:16:54.600 --> 02:16:57.879 that cost enough money to feed a third world nation 2453 02:16:58.040 --> 02:17:00.280 when it's the blandest movie y'all ever see, and you'll 2454 02:17:00.319 --> 02:17:02.440 forget about it the minute you walk out of the theater. 2455 02:17:02.680 --> 02:17:04.440 That is to me offensive. Am I going to try 2456 02:17:04.479 --> 02:17:07.120 and ban it? Oh? Of course not. I will make 2457 02:17:07.159 --> 02:17:07.440 fun of it. 2458 02:17:07.520 --> 02:17:11.600 Then, it was really fascinating to see the mind behind 2459 02:17:11.879 --> 02:17:16.000 the image and just she pract practices what she preaches 2460 02:17:16.079 --> 02:17:18.479 so much. I'd also like to go back and see 2461 02:17:18.600 --> 02:17:23.879 the earlier film that Lena Mannheimer made with Grea and 2462 02:17:24.000 --> 02:17:27.600 that is The Contract, which was a short from twenty ten. 2463 02:17:27.879 --> 02:17:30.360 I wonder if anything from that made it into the 2464 02:17:30.479 --> 02:17:34.840 later documentary, but it was about the Oath of Allegiance, 2465 02:17:34.959 --> 02:17:42.079 or contract that was signed by Is it Beverly Sharppentier, Yeah, 2466 02:17:42.120 --> 02:17:44.040 who we see in the film quite a few times. 2467 02:17:44.600 --> 02:17:48.159 And I love that Mannheimer kind of has this relationship 2468 02:17:48.760 --> 02:17:50.840 with them. So I'd be curious to see more of 2469 02:17:50.879 --> 02:17:52.760 her stuff too, because some of those. 2470 02:17:52.680 --> 02:17:56.959 Shots part of the way at least, like the English 2471 02:17:57.239 --> 02:18:00.559 world came to know about catrying robbe gria Is dominatrix 2472 02:18:00.639 --> 02:18:04.159 careers through this Vanity Fair article that appeared. I can't 2473 02:18:04.200 --> 02:18:07.639 remember the I think it's twenty fourteen, maybe maybe around 2474 02:18:07.680 --> 02:18:10.079 the same time as this film that was about, you know, 2475 02:18:10.159 --> 02:18:11.920 kind of her relationship with you know, our history of 2476 02:18:11.959 --> 02:18:14.840 relatable Beverly was like I said, it was written by 2477 02:18:14.879 --> 02:18:18.680 Tony Bentley and there's a great video on YouTube that 2478 02:18:19.159 --> 02:18:20.559 uh and he don't know what years from me because 2479 02:18:20.559 --> 02:18:23.120 there was a there was all the astrant says in 2480 02:18:23.239 --> 02:18:26.520 New York brought Kating, Robb Grier and Beverly Charpentier over 2481 02:18:27.079 --> 02:18:31.000 to talk about her life as a dominatrix and possibly 2482 02:18:31.040 --> 02:18:33.520 the film, and there's a there's a long interview with 2483 02:18:33.799 --> 02:18:37.719 Tony Bentley, Beverly and catching on on YouTube that you 2484 02:18:37.760 --> 02:18:40.079 can watch and it's it's it's from that her her 2485 02:18:40.159 --> 02:18:43.239 visit to New York. I wish I could have been there. Uh, 2486 02:18:43.319 --> 02:18:45.879 And it just sounds really great. And I think Radley 2487 02:18:45.879 --> 02:18:48.440 Mesker actually went to that talk and it is as 2488 02:18:48.520 --> 02:18:52.159 Ashley relates in the articles that like they they finally met. 2489 02:18:52.239 --> 02:18:54.600 That was the first time they met because he had 2490 02:18:54.680 --> 02:18:57.319 never met her. H when he acquired the rights for 2491 02:18:57.399 --> 02:18:57.719 the book. 2492 02:18:58.639 --> 02:19:01.360 That's wild to me, so especially since he shot it 2493 02:19:01.479 --> 02:19:02.079 in France. 2494 02:19:03.079 --> 02:19:06.159 There was some animosity actually, I think when when Alamo 2495 02:19:06.280 --> 02:19:10.000 Brier with a film finally came out and Alamo Brier 2496 02:19:10.200 --> 02:19:13.120 kind of saw, as again this is from Ashley's article, 2497 02:19:13.360 --> 02:19:16.079 he came out, he kind of saw a chance to 2498 02:19:16.360 --> 02:19:19.920 make a little extra money off the film's popularity because 2499 02:19:20.079 --> 02:19:22.680 it actually did really it wasn't a critical success, but 2500 02:19:22.840 --> 02:19:26.040 the image did financially very well in the US, and 2501 02:19:26.440 --> 02:19:29.200 I think Rob Grier saw said like, well, I should 2502 02:19:29.239 --> 02:19:30.879 be making we should be making a little bit more 2503 02:19:30.959 --> 02:19:34.280 money off of that. And apparently the contract that Radley 2504 02:19:34.319 --> 02:19:36.760 Nesker had was like water tights and like it wasn't 2505 02:19:36.840 --> 02:19:39.680 you know, there was absolutely no way. But Rob Grier 2506 02:19:39.840 --> 02:19:42.319 said like, I you know, I want more money or 2507 02:19:42.799 --> 02:19:45.680 I'll pull this up from being released in France. And 2508 02:19:45.959 --> 02:19:48.360 I can't remember if that's actually what happened or but 2509 02:19:49.000 --> 02:19:51.479 but yeah, he was kind of a dick, as Rob 2510 02:19:51.520 --> 02:19:55.280 Grier often was. I digress. He did get to meet 2511 02:19:55.639 --> 02:19:57.959 catching and they met together at this at this event 2512 02:19:58.040 --> 02:19:58.760 in New York. 2513 02:19:58.680 --> 02:20:01.319 And just to be a fly on the wall, right, 2514 02:20:01.559 --> 02:20:03.879 Oh goodness, that picture is adorable to because I know 2515 02:20:04.079 --> 02:20:06.200 I've remember seeing a picture I think it was park 2516 02:20:06.360 --> 02:20:10.399 on Routo Report. And there's Radley looking like with that 2517 02:20:10.479 --> 02:20:13.760 great head of hair, just looking like this handsome older gentleman. 2518 02:20:14.440 --> 02:20:18.200 And there's little tiny Catherine looking like a s and 2519 02:20:18.319 --> 02:20:20.239 M nun like I don't know why, she looks like. 2520 02:20:20.520 --> 02:20:23.200 She's like this adorable nun who will just thrash her 2521 02:20:23.319 --> 02:20:27.399 ass into submission in the best of ways. She's It's glorious. 2522 02:20:27.440 --> 02:20:31.200 I'm really glad I watched this eremony. I was. I'm 2523 02:20:31.200 --> 02:20:33.239 glad this came up in discussion. I thought that was 2524 02:20:33.280 --> 02:20:36.559 such a getting to see the different personalities of the 2525 02:20:37.079 --> 02:20:40.680 other doms too. I thought was like, not just Beverly, 2526 02:20:40.719 --> 02:20:42.840 but some of the and and certainly Beverly's journey from 2527 02:20:42.879 --> 02:20:45.840 going from like being a dom and her talking about 2528 02:20:46.200 --> 02:20:48.639 her experience with men and her loveries. Even before she 2529 02:20:48.719 --> 02:20:51.639 went to that I thought was so fascinating and such 2530 02:20:51.680 --> 02:20:54.159 a such a cool I mean for being such a 2531 02:20:54.879 --> 02:20:59.200 kind of a fairly short, feature length documentary. What we 2532 02:20:59.280 --> 02:21:02.079 do get to see you know, of each person? It 2533 02:21:02.120 --> 02:21:04.799 doesn't feel like enough, but it's just enough to where 2534 02:21:05.040 --> 02:21:06.559 you're you're really grateful to get it. 2535 02:21:07.360 --> 02:21:09.360 All right, Let's go ahead and take another break, and 2536 02:21:09.479 --> 02:21:11.520 we'll be back with a preview for next week's show 2537 02:21:11.639 --> 02:21:13.360 right after these brief messages? 2538 02:21:18.959 --> 02:21:20.239 What do you want? No? 2539 02:21:31.079 --> 02:21:31.760 Who's Daniel? 2540 02:21:31.920 --> 02:21:32.520 He's not here? 2541 02:21:35.079 --> 02:21:35.799 Is Daniel with you? 2542 02:21:38.600 --> 02:21:38.959 Percy? 2543 02:21:39.360 --> 02:21:39.840 I don't know. 2544 02:21:42.600 --> 02:21:43.079 What day? 2545 02:21:43.200 --> 02:21:43.360 Is it? 2546 02:21:43.840 --> 02:21:45.559 Fifteenth? Both days? 2547 02:21:46.680 --> 02:21:46.959 What's there? 2548 02:21:47.000 --> 02:21:47.600 An argument? 2549 02:21:49.479 --> 02:21:50.639 What do you think he's in danger? 2550 02:21:50.879 --> 02:21:52.399 You can live without an explanation. 2551 02:21:53.440 --> 02:21:55.120 He might live a love like this, but he's not 2552 02:21:55.159 --> 02:21:59.479 gonna walk away from his work. Do you think that 2553 02:21:59.559 --> 02:22:00.760 could be an a woman in love? 2554 02:22:03.120 --> 02:22:03.920 Can I undress you? 2555 02:22:05.680 --> 02:22:06.000 Come on? 2556 02:22:13.000 --> 02:22:14.879 Can be dangerous listening to your impulses? 2557 02:22:22.440 --> 02:22:23.159 Do I know you? 2558 02:22:25.000 --> 02:22:32.760 A little man? Why are you doing this? 2559 02:22:38.760 --> 02:22:39.079 He long? 2560 02:22:39.159 --> 02:22:39.879 Will you keep you. 2561 02:22:46.280 --> 02:22:46.319 So? 2562 02:22:46.520 --> 02:22:46.559 He? 2563 02:22:46.680 --> 02:22:46.920 Isn't it? 2564 02:22:47.639 --> 02:22:54.520 When you love somebody? That's where your fingers? Because you're beautiful? 2565 02:23:04.360 --> 02:23:04.959 There you'd been. 2566 02:23:09.280 --> 02:23:11.079 That's right, we'll be back next week with a look 2567 02:23:11.120 --> 02:23:13.799 at the two thousand and six film The Book of Revelation. 2568 02:23:14.159 --> 02:23:16.159 Until then, I wanted to thank my co host Jessica 2569 02:23:16.239 --> 02:23:19.079 and Heather. So, Jessica, what is the latest with you, ma'am? 2570 02:23:19.920 --> 02:23:22.479 Not very much, But if you're interested to see what 2571 02:23:22.520 --> 02:23:24.920 I'm up to, you can visit my Instagram. It's law 2572 02:23:25.079 --> 02:23:28.239 dot Bell dot otero and uh yeah, you can just 2573 02:23:28.360 --> 02:23:29.319 see what I'm up to there. 2574 02:23:29.680 --> 02:23:32.239 I always enjoy your Instagram. And Heather, how about yourself. 2575 02:23:33.159 --> 02:23:38.600 Jessica's Instagram is the most esthetically pleasing Instagram account, so 2576 02:23:39.000 --> 02:23:43.479 she is a master curator of fabulous art and imagery. 2577 02:23:43.639 --> 02:23:48.159 So and for me, you can read I Have I 2578 02:23:48.200 --> 02:23:50.639 think it's available for pre order right now on Vinegers Syndrome. 2579 02:23:51.360 --> 02:23:54.000 I got to do an essay for Tromo and juliet 2580 02:23:54.719 --> 02:23:58.319 which is one of two I have my two favorite 2581 02:23:58.360 --> 02:24:00.520 trauma films. I won't tell everybody the other it'll be 2582 02:24:00.559 --> 02:24:03.280 a surprise for later, but tromy and Juliette's number two. 2583 02:24:03.360 --> 02:24:05.639 I love it. It was such an honor getting to 2584 02:24:05.680 --> 02:24:09.920 write about this film. And and yes, so it's available preorder. 2585 02:24:09.959 --> 02:24:15.639 It's a beautiful set. And also via Umbrella entertainment. I 2586 02:24:15.719 --> 02:24:18.440 have a video essay on the release of ABC's of 2587 02:24:18.559 --> 02:24:23.360 Death where I do I talk about Noboro Uguchi's ethas 2588 02:24:23.399 --> 02:24:27.040 for fart I do. I love it. I had such 2589 02:24:27.040 --> 02:24:30.920 a great time with that. Uguchi is an absolute trip 2590 02:24:31.000 --> 02:24:36.840 of director, a great Japanese surrealist filmmaker. And yeah, talk 2591 02:24:36.840 --> 02:24:39.040 about Story of the Eye. I feel like Batilla would 2592 02:24:39.040 --> 02:24:42.799 appreciate a lease a little bit of that, and yeah, 2593 02:24:42.879 --> 02:24:46.200 and it's a it's a beautiful set and so it's 2594 02:24:46.200 --> 02:24:48.680 an honor to get me doing that for other Sundrys, 2595 02:24:48.680 --> 02:24:51.159 I'm always working on stuff I can't talk about. But 2596 02:24:51.799 --> 02:24:54.040 you can go to my link train leaktrain dot com, 2597 02:24:54.200 --> 02:24:58.360 forward slash, Mondo Heather. You'll find my social media, my Patreon, 2598 02:24:58.600 --> 02:25:04.360 my website, other podcasts, articles, can goods and baked goods, 2599 02:25:04.479 --> 02:25:06.159 all the fun essentials. 2600 02:25:06.360 --> 02:25:08.799 Zach and I do highly recommend Heather's patreons. 2601 02:25:09.159 --> 02:25:11.239 Oh, thank you. Other us say baked goods and I'm like, 2602 02:25:11.360 --> 02:25:13.600 oh you have that. I'm sure I would love your 2603 02:25:13.639 --> 02:25:16.520 bood Yeah, my muffins are to die for. 2604 02:25:17.520 --> 02:25:19.479 Thanks again, ladies for being on the show. Thanks to 2605 02:25:19.559 --> 02:25:22.079 everybody for listening. Do you want to support physical media 2606 02:25:22.159 --> 02:25:24.280 and get great movies in the mail. Head over to 2607 02:25:24.319 --> 02:25:27.399 scarecrow dot com and try Scarecrow Videos incredible rent by 2608 02:25:27.479 --> 02:25:31.319 mail service, the largest publicly accessible collection in the world. 2609 02:25:31.840 --> 02:25:35.719 You'll find films there entirely unavailable elsewhere. Get what you want, 2610 02:25:35.879 --> 02:25:38.719 when you want it, without the scrolling, and yes, they 2611 02:25:38.799 --> 02:25:41.319 have the image available. If you want to hear more 2612 02:25:41.360 --> 02:25:43.000 of me shooting off my mouth, check out some of 2613 02:25:43.040 --> 02:25:45.200 the other shows that I work on. They're all available 2614 02:25:45.239 --> 02:25:49.040 at Weirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our Patreon community. 2615 02:25:49.239 --> 02:25:51.440 If you want to join the community, visit patreon dot 2616 02:25:51.479 --> 02:25:54.479 com slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get helps the 2617 02:25:54.520 --> 02:25:56.239 Projection Booth take over the world. 2618 02:26:42.079 --> 02:26:48.840 They went, They