WEBVTT 1 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:32.640 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander, an 2 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:35.960 Eagle one from Eagle Speak at Seer Shore your home 3 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.320 for a discussion of national security issues and all things maritime. 4 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.600 And welcome board everybody for another edition of mid Rats. 5 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:46.399 We really appreciate you joining today. We just want to 6 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:49.679 go ahead and dive in directly to our guest today, 7 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:54.280 Tom Suncar. He is the chief technology officer for a 8 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.520 pall Andeer, and today we are going to dive into 9 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:01.759 a really robot piece of work that he's done looking 10 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:05.319 at the macro Department of Defense here for the United States, 11 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:07.760 and we'll have links for it in the show page. 12 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.560 It's the Defense Reformation and it based upon something that 13 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.879 really kind of caught my eye is I'm looking at 14 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:19.280 another podcast right now that I do during my commute. 15 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:22.799 It's Dirk Hoffin's a History of the Germans podcast, and 16 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.680 we just reached the point that we're going into the 17 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:31.480 Reformation with Martin Luther, and the unbearingly describes what led 18 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:34.560 Martin Luther to that point in the condition of the church. 19 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.200 And I got to give a lot of credit here 20 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.480 because in the kickoff, we don't have one of these 21 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:43.879 slow boils where are we going here? And I just 22 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:46.799 want to do a right at the masthead quote. As 23 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:50.040 a nation, we are in an undeclared state of emergency. 24 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:52.000 And also in the start you had this kind of 25 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:57.319 extended quote that lets you know that what you have 26 00:01:57.439 --> 00:01:59.560 to follow is going to be clear and right to 27 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.560 your faith. Well extended quote, your quote. This is a 28 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:06.760 Cold War two. The West has empirically lost to terrence. 29 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.479 We must respond to this emergency to regain it. We 30 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:14.319 have a peer adversary China. Near peer is a shibble 31 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:18.120 of a euphemism to avoid the embarrassment of acknowledging we 32 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.199 have peers when we were once peerless. And with that 33 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:24.280 some welcome to Midraps. 34 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:25.759 Well, thank you guys for having me. 35 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:29.199 And like I kind of mentioned in the in the 36 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:35.560 opening here, for those that study European history, the Reformation 37 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.960 and what Martin Luther did was a serious act at 38 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:42.520 a serious point right up there in front and talk 39 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:45.159 for a bit. What as you are looking through the 40 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:48.599 through the challenges and the recommendations that that you think 41 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:51.240 that we need to to better improve how we provide 42 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:54.159 for the national defense, what resonated with you at that 43 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:54.960 point in history? 44 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.039 Well, I think a key part of the Reformation is 45 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:01.639 realizing that that the church religion is such a core 46 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:05.919 component to Western civilization, and that it had become sclerotic, 47 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.599 it had picked up some barnacles along its multi millennia 48 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:13.159 history that needed at least some fresh thinking and as 49 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.879 much credit as I'm almost viewing this dispassionately as someone 50 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.080 looking at the Reformation, it was both the Reformation and 51 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:24.240 the counter Reformation, the Revival that led to great changes, 52 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:26.840 And I think having the sort of fresh thinking saying 53 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:30.000 things that are heretical but possibly true, enables us to 54 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:33.520 have that sort of robust conversation and reform the institutions 55 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:33.960 from within. 56 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:36.159 Yeah. 57 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:38.400 One of the questions I had as I was reading 58 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:40.840 through your work and looking at some of the other 59 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.520 stuff you've done, is how do we unleash creativity given 60 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.080 the structures we have now? And I think you've talked 61 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:54.879 about the Last Supper in the first Breakfast, how do 62 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:59.080 we unchain people to be innovative and meet the challenge 63 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:00.680 you see in front of us. 64 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:04.639 It starts with understanding that the structures were created to 65 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:06.639 serve us at a point in time. You know, the 66 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.639 structures are not sacricynct we have to understand that we 67 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.800 built these structures because we were organizing ourselves around a problem. 68 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:15.639 And this is one of the great lessons I've learned 69 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:17.720 over twenty years at Palenteer, is that you get a 70 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:22.360 lot by organizing and then committing yourself to continuously reorganize 71 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:25.319 around the problem as it exists today, not as it 72 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.000 existed in the past. And that's where that's that's the 73 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:30.399 starting point for accumulating all these barnacles, which is like 74 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:32.639 you were right in the past and you're just wrong 75 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:35.079 in the present, and that error you're letting it accumulate. 76 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:37.399 And I think there's a very human reason we do that. 77 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:41.079 We like predictability, we like organ we like legibility in 78 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:44.240 our organizational structures. It can feel like there's thrash when 79 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:47.399 you're changing things, but that might also be needed. A 80 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:49.319 lot of these things are dialectical, right Like if you 81 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.639 have if it's all thrash and you're changing things all 82 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:54.319 the time, nothing works. On the other end, if there's 83 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:57.680 no thrash and you're changing nothing, nothing works. 84 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:00.680 People are always calling for reform, and a lot of 85 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:05.079 times it just never bears fruit because the timing's not right. 86 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:08.279 And for those that aren't familiar with the report. It 87 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:11.160 was put out kind of surprisingly right around Halloween, but 88 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:13.480 it was before the election, and I know this is 89 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.519 not something that you pounded out over a couple of 90 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:19.439 hours on a weekend. There's a lot of work involved here, 91 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:21.120 so this is going on for months ahead of time, 92 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.600 so it's not something that was done. Okay, Well, I 93 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:27.879 know who's coming into the new administration, so what can 94 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:32.040 I shape for that? But we're reaching a point where 95 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:35.279 some people call it you whether it's chaos is a 96 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:38.839 ladder or change is an opportunity. But this is a 97 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.800 nice moment in time where you're going to have new 98 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:46.519 people with new perspectives and an open mind to look 99 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.519 at things new. And again, when you look at a 100 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.480 lot of the people who are coming into the administration 101 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:56.079 are advising them, there is this undercurrent of let's do 102 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.360 a fresh look, let's do a clean sheet, let's have 103 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:02.600 a different view of how we're trying to do business. 104 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:06.000 Are you seeing this as one of those opportunities for 105 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:08.639 you and other ones that have been looking for reforms 106 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:11.240 and not just asking for it, but are saying literally, 107 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:14.920 here are by eighteen points as an entering argument for discussion. 108 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.879 Do you see that from a timing perspective, that you 109 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:21.879 really have more of an opportunity you may have thought 110 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:23.560 in January of twenty twenty four. 111 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:27.920 Unquestionably the time is now for this. There's a golden 112 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:31.480 opportunity to do this. There's an emerging consensus that maybe 113 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:33.720 people weren't willing to say many of these things out loud, 114 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:35.920 but both inside and outside the building, there was a 115 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:38.079 huge amount of resonance with this content because people are 116 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:40.040 thinking it. And I think there's something to be said 117 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:42.639 that the new team coming in you see a lot 118 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.160 of first principle thinking, and that's what we kind of 119 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:48.000 need right now. We need to re examine this from 120 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:50.519 from top to bottom, and we need to say, well, 121 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:52.720 why can't it be this way? You know, we've been 122 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:55.040 I would say the critique would be, we've been overly 123 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.879 committed to historical playbooks that don't seem to be working. 124 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:04.680 And that sort of improvisational, dynamic thinking is an American strength, 125 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:06.680 you know, and I mean this in the best possible way. 126 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:10.839 We're crazy as Americans, and so that willingness to reconsider, reinvent, 127 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:13.560 to reorganize it is going to play to our strength. 128 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.800 Once we hit that precipice of believing that absolute changes needed. 129 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:21.800 Do you think this is how much of this is 130 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:25.480 connected to the rise of the Silicon Valley and people 131 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:29.519 who are dealing with technologies that didn't exist thirty or 132 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.199 forty years ago. Does this open up their minds more 133 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.199 to being able to adjust to a new world that 134 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.040 perhaps people who grew up like I did in a 135 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:40.680 more corporate world where you really didn't want to stick 136 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:41.920 your head out too far. 137 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:44.160 Well, you know, the older I get, the more I 138 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.319 realized there's nothing new under the sun. As much as 139 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.439 we might look at the present moment with defense tech 140 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:50.959 and we see a Silicon valley's interest in getting involved 141 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:53.720 in defense, we shouldn't forget that Bill Perry, who was 142 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.120 a Deputy Secretary of Defense and a Secretary of Defense, 143 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.600 who who kind of shepherd stealth and GPS into existence. 144 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.439 He was a Silicon Valley founder. He founded Electronic Systems 145 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.079 Laboratory first company or agency. He even beat the government 146 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.519 to doing digital singing. Everything before then was analog. And 147 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:12.319 David Packard co founder of HB he was a depth 148 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.639 sec of Defense. So this idea that our technologists have 149 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.199 not been involved we've just kind of forgotten it. Maybe 150 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.879 it's a comfortable legacy of the Cold War having won 151 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.120 the Cold War, rather that we forget the role that 152 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:26.000 the valley really played. And I'm excited as an American 153 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.399 to see that the most dynamic parts of our economy 154 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.600 is represented in our tech industry and the new parts 155 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.559 of our manufacturing industry are getting involved with national security. 156 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:39.039 And your spot on me. That is the one thing. 157 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:42.480 And it's not just this generation. It's transgenerational. And you 158 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:44.879 can look back at some of the comment the German 159 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.519 General staff had to say about fighting Americans or the Soviets. 160 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:52.759 Are you just look at our modern world and whether 161 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:58.360 you're looking at your electricity, cars, medicines, you pull that thread. 162 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.440 It comes back to the opportunity unities that our culture 163 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.080 and our rule of law and our nation enabled smart 164 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:08.600 people with good ideas and drive to be able to accomplish. 165 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:12.639 And you would think that that would be reflected throughout 166 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:17.840 our government our culture, but it's not. And a lot 167 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.279 of people don't see that. And that's okay. People have 168 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:22.840 busy lives, they've got to get on. They have a 169 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:24.960 lot of trust that the government's doing the right thing 170 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:28.720 and I wouldn't call it un American, but maybe contra American. 171 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:35.159 You do a good job at outlining that the trillion 172 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:39.519 dollars plus or minus that our nation invests in its defense, 173 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:43.000 it's not reflecting the best of that American culture. One 174 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.720 of the quotes that I think, again, people don't have 175 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:47.159 a vision of this, and a lot of people who 176 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:50.440 have served are very aware of this. But I think 177 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.919 this is helpful in informing the larger public and decision makers. 178 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:56.720 And here's a little bit of a quote quote Everyone 179 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.759 including the Russians and Chinese, have given up on communism 180 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.960 except for Cuba and the Department of Defense. The only 181 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:08.279 problem is that we make very bad commies unquote. So 182 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:12.240 you combine this consolidated view of we're not going to 183 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:14.919 have individual farms, were going to put all the coulocks 184 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:18.919 onto the collectives with you mentioned McNamara early, and he 185 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:22.919 comes up again. You have this era US auto industry 186 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.960 approach in view of a program management that is almost 187 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:32.080 stuck in this aspect here in twenty twenty five. And 188 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:37.960 what type of levers do you see that we need 189 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:40.080 to get people to get hold of that can help 190 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:43.360 break open this aspect and bring out some of the 191 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:47.320 better parts of our culture and our environment that we 192 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.200 can leverage into making our defense better for the dollars 193 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:51.039 we're putting into it. 194 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:53.679 I just want to double click on macnamara because we 195 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:56.480 forget that the auto industry and the fees even into 196 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.799 the sixties was very different. Basically Ford when he was 197 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:03.240 on Forward, they had unlimited demand. Any card they could 198 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:05.600 make they would sell. That means you're going to focus 199 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:07.840 very much on the efficiency of the supply side. How 200 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:09.559 do you produce, you know, how do you manage the 201 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.960 production You don't actually have the same complexity of problem, 202 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.519 and that ended up hurting American auto companies in the 203 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:21.480 seventies when we started facing Japanese competition. We basically as 204 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:24.519 America had to throw away the McNamara playbook in Detroit 205 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:28.200 in order to make our auto companies competitive again. But 206 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:30.559 the Department didn't do that, you know, we stuck with 207 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:33.919 the McNamara playbook, and the legacy of ppbe to the 208 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:37.960 present day. And so to my point about organizing and reorganizing, look, 209 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:40.440 that might have been the right way to approach things 210 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.000 in the fifties and sixties. Although I think smart folks 211 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.639 like Eric Lafgan would say even then it wasn't a 212 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.360 good approach and it was fatally flawed with systems analysis, 213 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.120 but it certainly isn't the right way today. And I 214 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.240 think when we look at the era, when we think 215 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.679 about big things that we've done, like ICBMs or the 216 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:00.240 submarine launch ballistic missiles, we had a lot a lot 217 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.159 more inner service rivalry, We had a lot more competition 218 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.000 within government, and I think it really is a legacy 219 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:09.399 of having won the Cold War. That and a desire 220 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:12.600 for a peace dividend, which is very reasonable, but it's 221 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:16.600 pushed us towards this consolidated approach, a unitary effort. You know, 222 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.120 duplication is bad, but of course if you look at 223 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.720 the American economy, we have lots of companies competing all 224 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:23.240 the time. We have duplication all the time, and we 225 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:26.159 think that gives us the fitness, the survival function. And 226 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:28.600 I would offer you as an example, Europe has created 227 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.279 zero companies from scratch over the last fifty years, worth 228 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.639 one hundred million dollars one hundred billion, sorry, one hundred 229 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:38.720 billion dollars or more. America has created all of her 230 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.679 trillion dollar companies from scratch in the last fifty years, 231 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:45.879 the relative performance there is astronomical. We're not even in 232 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:47.679 the same league. And I think a lot of that 233 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:50.559 comes down to our American culture and our willingness to 234 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.000 I would say it's founder led You know, of all 235 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.639 the nations in the world, we call them the founding 236 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.279 fathers for a reason. We understand that there's something special 237 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.000 about founders. This is not a random group of people 238 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:03.519 in seventeen seventy six who just happened to pull this off. 239 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:06.919 The people really mattered, and each of their individual contributions 240 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.440 really mattered. And when you look at World War Two 241 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:11.600 or the early Cold War, but today we might think 242 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.159 about it as Northrop Grumman, but it was Jack Northrop, 243 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:16.559 it was Leroy Grumman. It wasn't Lockheed Martin, it was 244 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.480 Glenn Martin. It was William Bowing. And when you look 245 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:21.919 at the present the most functioning parts of our economy, 246 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:25.879 it's Elon Musk, you know, Mark and Dreesen is. You see, 247 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:29.799 those founders have now migrated to technology. So I'm not 248 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.480 sure there's something special about Silicon Valley per se, but 249 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:35.639 I do think there's something special about the American founder, 250 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.000 Letter Frontier, founder letter approach. 251 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:42.960 Yeah, you talk about a lot about people like John 252 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.000 Boyd and Rickover and other people that were viewed at 253 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:52.799 the time as mavericks and heredicts. That's the most complimentary 254 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:54.679 thing you could say. Yeah, they were, they were. I mean, 255 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:56.879 what do we do? How do we get the wild 256 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.519 card people who? And I think you also talked about 257 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.799 the engineer to some of whom contribute a hundred times 258 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:02.559 more than other. 259 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:07.679 Engineers airframes in his life. You know. Like so when 260 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.159 I say founder, I don't just mean commercial founders like 261 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.879 people building companies. I consider Kelly Johnson and Rickover and 262 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.120 Boyd founders American founders. You know, is it the F 263 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:19.559 sixteen or is it Boyd's playing? 264 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:20.000 You know? 265 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:22.960 And what's the counterfaction with the nuclear Navy? Now, maybe 266 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:25.679 to the question you're going, sorry to have interrupted there. 267 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.080 I think a big part of this is reminding ourselves 268 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.159 of the need to protect these personalities the sort of 269 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.000 comfortable path. You know, like, these very creative people are 270 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.919 often pretty disagreeable. They're there. It requires a lot of 271 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.559 human management to keep the band together, to get the 272 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.759 right person in the right role, and realizing as leaders 273 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.639 that's part of our job Rickover did not survive thirty 274 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:50.840 years as the head of the Navy nuclear program, subprogram, 275 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:55.000 reactor program just because people wanted them there. Zumbwaldt actually said, 276 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:57.759 the Navy has three enemies, the Soviet Union, the Air Force, 277 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:01.240 and Admiral Rickover. So it it actually took many, many 278 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.840 acts of Congress to keep him in place, and his 279 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.799 tenure finally expired when Congress decided his time was up. 280 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.759 Yeah, I guess my question you've hit most of it. 281 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.320 But how do we not They played whack a mole 282 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:16.360 with Boyd, they played whack a mole. They played it 283 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.440 with Rookover too, but he had some congressional support that 284 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:22.120 helped him survive. How do we prevent that from happening 285 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:25.159 to people who are in that mode? But maybe, you know, 286 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:27.960 the system seemed to squash him pretty heavily. 287 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.159 Yeah, I mean I think we shouldn't. I don't want 288 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:33.799 to be too pollyannish about it in the sense that, like, 289 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.120 I think it will always be hard to protect those people. 290 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:38.960 But the primacy of winning, I mean, do you want 291 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.519 to win or do you want to comfortably run program 292 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.799 that's you know, leading our deterrence into the ground. And 293 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:46.440 so I think the right folks, like if you think 294 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.320 about I think Shreiver is a great example of this, 295 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.679 where he protected Edward Hall, who was building the Minuteman 296 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.879 up until the very moment that the Minuteman worked. As 297 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.200 soon as it worked, it was Hall's time. And I 298 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:00.440 think there's something very real politique about that, where Shreiver 299 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.480 was optimizing on the primacy of winning. There's only one 300 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:05.279 person who could get it here. There are other people 301 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:07.279 who can get it to the next phase, and all 302 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.200 of our difficult, found driven personalities will at some point, 303 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.600 you know, their time will come. I think anyone who's 304 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:16.519 built a business sees that over and over as well. 305 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:18.879 But it starts with sorry, it's a long answer your question, 306 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:20.679 but it starts with the commitment to realizing that part 307 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:24.039 of our job as leadership is to protect these really 308 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:27.159 unique humans, to cultivate them and protect them. We don't 309 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:29.039 want to lose them when they're always when they look 310 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:31.480 up and they just see a boorg or a machine 311 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:33.080 that's going to grind them mouth, that's going to treat 312 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.639 their career as a bingo card of experiences to kind 313 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:39.200 of fill out. Versus like these really they're almost like 314 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:43.080 artists like deeply, profoundly creative humans who have the skill 315 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:46.279 set to do something for a decade and in doing 316 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.559 so fundamentally and asymmetrically impact our capability as as a nation. 317 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.919 And the Navy. I sometimes refer to the personnel policy 318 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:58.519 as the Millington Dick Top because Millington, Tennessee is where 319 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:02.440 our personnel is located. And you're talking about protecting the people. 320 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:05.480 And when you run into an organization and you're looking 321 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.640 too how to repair things or to optimize it, you're 322 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:13.319 looking at people. Process are procedures one combination of the 323 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.319 three policies and the people part. And that's one of 324 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:20.039 the recurring things that we see in your discussions in 325 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:24.400 your eighteen thesis is people matter, individual people. Finding those 326 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:28.400 people and like you said, protecting them matters. And there's 327 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:32.599 also constantly updating what works best for today. And when 328 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:38.000 you look at two of the large frameworks that not 329 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.440 just people, but the process and policies the DD runs on, 330 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:46.079 it's almost comical when you look at and again as 331 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.839 I try to emphasize the people, these are created by humans, 332 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.200 They can be changed by humans. These these are not 333 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:54.799 acts of nature. Here you have dopma, the Defense Officer 334 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:59.519 Personnel Management Act. It's from nineteen eighties. Goldwater Nichols is 335 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.680 nineteen teen eighty six. It's you know, big Hair Neon 336 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:08.319 post disco America is running things in twenty twenty five. 337 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:14.559 And to change these it requires not just people like 338 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.839 you've done. Here's some ideas, here's some outlines, but it 339 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:20.880 requires people at the House of Representatives in the Senate 340 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.119 and both parties to say, hey, I want to be 341 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.119 part of joining the twenty first century. Twenty five years 342 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:29.359 too late, let's get to work on it. Are you 343 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.000 finding good partners in the Senate and the House that 344 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:37.599 are willing to be this generation's Goldwater in Nickels and 345 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:43.319 perhaps look at bringing the Jimmy Carter theory of personnel 346 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.119 management into the modern age. 347 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.359 On personal management. I'm starting to see it. I think 348 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:49.960 if you want to get there, we have to wedge 349 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:52.119 into it. You know, do you want to like fix 350 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:53.920 the system or do you want to win? And they're 351 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:55.799 not the same thing. And if if you spend too 352 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:57.960 much time trying to quot unquote fix the system, you're 353 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.559 going to get bogged out in trench warfare and lose 354 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:02.720 all your maneuver room but what we need are some 355 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.640 early efforts that are actually working, that generate momentum and 356 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:09.559 show us a path of alternative ways that we could 357 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:11.680 be organizing. I think it would be very bold to 358 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.880 say that we should reorganize the whole department, because I 359 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.240 kind of feel like the opposite of one mistakes another mistake. 360 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:17.960 You're not going to quite get this right. What we're 361 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.799 really missing is the ability to have the human discretion 362 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.319 for saying this program needs to be run differently. You know, 363 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.079 first principle, I'm thinking about it, this is the right 364 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:27.799 setup for it. I need someone to be around longer, 365 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.839 and I think you can if you look at naval reactors, 366 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.160 there's a reason that the person in charge sticks around 367 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:34.000 there for eight years. 368 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:34.519 You know. 369 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.200 That's not very DOPMA compliant. It's not the traditional three 370 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:41.680 year rotational program. But we recognize the gravity of the role, 371 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.079 the value of experience, the need for continuity for something 372 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:49.759 that critical. We should have more heterogeneous approaches that match 373 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.359 the specifics of what we're dealing with. And I think 374 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.960 as a consequence, like my big pushback would be that 375 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.559 we need to give our officers more discretion. You know, 376 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.680 I guess very frustrated when I hear this axiomatic line 377 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:04.400 that you know, it's like, well, we've shown this is 378 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.640 what I hear from general officers. You know, we've shown that. 379 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.519 You know, we're not always the best stewards of the 380 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.160 tax payer money. We really need all this oversight. I'm 381 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:12.960 all for oversight. That's part of the role, that's how 382 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.799 the system works. But this sort of self flagellation, I 383 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.759 don't really believe it. When you're doing these really hard things, 384 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.240 you can't expect them all to work out. There's there's 385 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:24.720 a price to pay for your own experience and getting 386 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.880 up the curve. There's a need for you to learn 387 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.880 from your mistakes. What we The real oversight comes from 388 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.440 betting on the right people are you know, do you 389 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:34.000 have the right people in the role? Great? You know 390 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.599 you're probably not gonna be able to do much better 391 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:37.759 than that, and the journey is what it's going to be. 392 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:40.400 I love the anecdote of Admiral Rayburn when he was 393 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.000 building the submarine launch blistic missiles. First of all, he 394 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.519 had four competing programs. He had Congress breathing down his neck, 395 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.440 he had other admirals breathing down his neck. You know, 396 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:51.680 show me the gant chart of gansharks, like, how is 397 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.759 this program going? Tell me when it's going to deliver? 398 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.440 And he created something called per peert, the latest in 399 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:01.279 decision sciences and analysis. It was, you know, use Monte 400 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.400 Carlo simulation to tell you how long these things were 401 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:05.319