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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Blake Smith.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doctor Karen Stolsner.

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<v Speaker 2>Since we started doing this show, I've received so many

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<v Speaker 2>kind and thoughtful messages from listeners who say that they

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<v Speaker 2>find Monster Talk to be a rock in a stormy sea.

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<v Speaker 2>We've been told that our show has helped folk through

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<v Speaker 2>real rough times, and if that's true for you, we're

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<v Speaker 2>glad to have been of any help. Life is precious,

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<v Speaker 2>Your life, your neighbors, your friends, your family. We're all

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<v Speaker 2>in this amazing connected network and precariously placed in what

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<v Speaker 2>appears to be a cold and uncaring universe. It's important

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<v Speaker 2>for us to look out for each other. This introduction

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<v Speaker 2>has nothing to do with monsters, I suppose, but I

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<v Speaker 2>just wanted to say thanks to you listeners as well,

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<v Speaker 2>your messages, your notes, tweets, retweets, reviews on iTunes, your

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<v Speaker 2>comments on Facebook, all the ways that you share this

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<v Speaker 2>show with others, and your thoughts about the show with

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<v Speaker 2>me and Karen.

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<v Speaker 3>They're all deeply appreciated.

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<v Speaker 2>Twenty sixteen's been a heck of a year, with many

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<v Speaker 2>ups and downs and many downs, but I've got a

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<v Speaker 2>few more things lined up for you before we end

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<v Speaker 2>this year, and I wanted to say that in my mind,

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<v Speaker 2>we're a family. I want to say thank you to

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<v Speaker 2>my fellow Monster talkers. In a time when the media

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<v Speaker 2>is calling this a post truth world, it's more important

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<v Speaker 2>than ever to remember that fact checking is not a

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<v Speaker 2>part as an ideal. We can't rely on Google and Facebook.

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<v Speaker 3>To point out nonsense.

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<v Speaker 2>Each of us has to be responsible for learning critical

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<v Speaker 2>thinking and teaching other people as well. And if we don't,

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<v Speaker 2>who will. I've got more to say on that, but

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<v Speaker 2>not right here and not right now. For now, let's

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<v Speaker 2>put those worries behind us and talk about a lake

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<v Speaker 2>in Scotland that some say is the home to a

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<v Speaker 2>mysterious monster. No, not that lake in Scotland, not the

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<v Speaker 2>one in the theme song, a different one. It's actually

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<v Speaker 2>quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. A giant, hairy

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<v Speaker 2>preacher in part Ape part Mass.

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<v Speaker 4>In Larkness twenty four, a mile long, bottomless lake in

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<v Speaker 4>the Highlands of Scotland. It's a creature known as the

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<v Speaker 4>Luckless Monster.

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<v Speaker 3>Monstert Okay, as is frequently the case.

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<v Speaker 2>As we get near the end of the year, I

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<v Speaker 2>find that I have to cut to the chase instead

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<v Speaker 2>of giving you all the cool background info I want

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<v Speaker 2>to before the show. In this episode, we have the

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<v Speaker 2>return of Mike Dash, one of my favorite forty and

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<v Speaker 2>researchers and the author of the very fine book Borderlands,

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<v Speaker 2>which I'll link to in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 3>I hope you enjoy our little monster.

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<v Speaker 2>If you were giving yourself a brief bio, how would

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<v Speaker 2>you introduce yourself?

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<v Speaker 4>Me? My golly.

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<v Speaker 5>I've been associated with fourteen time since the early nineteen eighties.

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<v Speaker 5>Background as a historian, those two things probably come together

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<v Speaker 5>quite helpfully when it comes to researching stories of this sort.

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<v Speaker 2>And what's you're doing? You write for National Geographic? Am

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<v Speaker 2>I remembering that right? Smithsonian?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>See, I might remembering that right?

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<v Speaker 1>Cool?

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<v Speaker 3>But I love your articles.

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<v Speaker 2>They're so in depth in a time when people are

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<v Speaker 2>always looking for like click bait listical sound bites. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>You're You're writing always goes deeper and has lots of

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<v Speaker 2>citations in it.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just a it's just fun to read.

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<v Speaker 1>And is it about important but obscure topics as well?

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<v Speaker 4>Just obscure?

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<v Speaker 5>I would say, well, you could claim you could claim

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<v Speaker 5>some importance for some of it. Mostly it's just interesting

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<v Speaker 5>and obscure stuff, and the more obscure is the better.

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<v Speaker 4>I tend to like it.

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<v Speaker 5>And certainly I don't do sandbites because most of them

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<v Speaker 5>are kind of eight thousand words long or something.

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<v Speaker 4>I think.

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<v Speaker 5>Actually, tomorrow my main target is I have to write

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<v Speaker 5>an article for the Encyclopedia of Toxicology, because it turns

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<v Speaker 5>out I'm the only person who knows anything about an

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<v Speaker 5>obscure poisoning scale. It took place in Rome in the

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<v Speaker 5>sixteen fifties, and that's a typical example the sort of

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<v Speaker 5>thing I researched.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually, wow, that's neat.

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<v Speaker 1>So where do you do your research?

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<v Speaker 5>Oh well, I thought this is a good thing about

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<v Speaker 5>living in London. I mean, British Library is my second

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<v Speaker 5>home really, and that has a pretty awesome collection.

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<v Speaker 2>I say, you lucky bear, dude, you can. Yes, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>very envious. That's I think I've meant. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if I've said it on the show before, but I've

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned to my wife I'd love to go to England.

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<v Speaker 2>But even if I were going to go for like

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<v Speaker 2>a week to just London, I would need two weeks

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<v Speaker 2>because half of that time, I would like to go

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<v Speaker 2>to libraries and museums, and then it was right right,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know the other half, I'd want to go

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<v Speaker 2>see the things that tourists see. But I really there's

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<v Speaker 2>so many undigitized opportunities there.

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<v Speaker 3>For the researcher.

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<v Speaker 4>So yeah, that's so true.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I guess we should get to the questioning where

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<v Speaker 2>were you on the night? No, so we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about a lake monster or a loch monster in

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<v Speaker 2>this case when when that some of our listeners will

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<v Speaker 2>have heard about and one that many will not have

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<v Speaker 2>heard about. This is the Locke Morare creature known as well.

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<v Speaker 2>It looks like more rag, but it's it's not more ag.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, it's a it's a Gaelic word. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 5>would pronounce it moag and Morag is now a fairly

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<v Speaker 5>familiar Scottish girl's name actually, but the correct Gaelic pronunciation

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<v Speaker 5>is vorak.

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<v Speaker 3>That doesn't seem just like the munty python thing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's a spelled luxury yacht, but it's pronounced throat

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<v Speaker 2>main ground right there.

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<v Speaker 5>That's it typically British if you like, And obviously Vorak

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<v Speaker 5>is probably not the most feminine standing name you could

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<v Speaker 5>imagine either, but.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it seems like a Viking name.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's fascinating. Do you know what does it mean?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, one of the early sources I found on this

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<v Speaker 5>translates it as Little Sarah, which I suspect is almost

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<v Speaker 5>certainly wrong, but we can go with that if you like.

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<v Speaker 2>It's build Sarah, but it's pronounced Rabulian.

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<v Speaker 1>So where is this?

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<v Speaker 5>This Lockmoer Lockmore is on the west coast of Scotland,

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<v Speaker 5>so I mean, if people maybe think in terms of

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<v Speaker 5>it's a relationship to Lockness, which is obviously the thing

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<v Speaker 5>that most people end up comparing it to. It is

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<v Speaker 5>around about sixty or seventy miles to the west of Lockness,

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<v Speaker 5>on right against the coast, just south of the Isle

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<v Speaker 5>of Sky. So this is an area's got them known

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<v Speaker 5>as the rough Bounds because it's by far the most

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<v Speaker 5>inaccessible part of the Scottish Highlands, which in themselves are

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<v Speaker 5>fairly well known for being pretty inaccessible. So this is

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<v Speaker 5>one of the interesting things about it. I mean a

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<v Speaker 5>couple of things apply therefore. I mean, firstly, it has

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<v Speaker 5>quite a significant local folk law tradition which is quite

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<v Speaker 5>unique to it. And secondly, and This is the key

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<v Speaker 5>thing I think that you have to bear in mind

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<v Speaker 5>about lockmow Are compared to Lockness. I mean, this whole

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<v Speaker 5>point about Lockness, and the reason why the Lockness monster

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<v Speaker 5>sories got into the papers in the first place, back

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<v Speaker 5>in nineteen thirty three, when the story really to all

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<v Speaker 5>intents and purposes begins, is that, you know, there was

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<v Speaker 5>work going on creating a new road along the side

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<v Speaker 5>of the lock So it's now actually possible to drive

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<v Speaker 5>pretty much the whole length of Lockness, and I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>although some trees are grown up so you can't see

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<v Speaker 5>late the whole time. Essentially it's extremely close to civilization

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<v Speaker 5>and indeed only sort of four or five miles south

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<v Speaker 5>of Inverness, which is the capital city of the Highlands,

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<v Speaker 5>so it's you know, one of the problems one has

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<v Speaker 5>been thinking about Lockness as the possible home of an

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<v Speaker 5>actual animal or set of animals is how the hell

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<v Speaker 5>does it hide? Because literally thousands of people are driving

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<v Speaker 5>up and down this road seeing quite wide expanses of

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<v Speaker 5>lake now Loch More, as I say, is a lot

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<v Speaker 5>more isolated than that. They're only about a quarter of

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<v Speaker 5>the surface. Has anybody overlooking it at all? I mean

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<v Speaker 5>it's almost entirely uninhabited in that thanks to the higher

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<v Speaker 5>than clearances, which was when in the eighteen hundred landlords

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<v Speaker 5>cleared a lot of the land of tenants so they

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<v Speaker 5>could re establish the land as deer forest, in other words,

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<v Speaker 5>just for sort of hunting and stalking purposes, which was

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<v Speaker 5>considered to be more profitable. So a large part of

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<v Speaker 5>the population that existed on Lockmow at that time left.

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<v Speaker 5>Most of them went to Canada, where interestingly a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of the local folklore kind of repeats itself as a result.

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<v Speaker 5>So in fact that there's a one road that goes

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<v Speaker 5>along two miles of the north throough Lockermower Up, which

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<v Speaker 5>is an eleven mile long lock and the rest of

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<v Speaker 5>it is essentially completely uninhabited. So a lot of things

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<v Speaker 5>could be going on out there that we simply wouldn't

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<v Speaker 5>know about. And in terms of it being a credible

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<v Speaker 5>habitat for an actual animal, I mean, we can go

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<v Speaker 5>on to whether or not this is translating to yes,

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<v Speaker 5>there is an actual animal there later on.

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<v Speaker 4>There are many things that go for it.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean not only the isolation, but the fact that

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<v Speaker 5>the other thing that lockness is, you know, relatively famous

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<v Speaker 5>for is that the waters are almost entirely impenetrably black

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<v Speaker 5>because of the huge number of peat particles washed down

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<v Speaker 5>from surrounding hillsides. So you can put your you know,

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, you can swim in Lockness and look down

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<v Speaker 5>at your feet and you won't see them because it's

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<v Speaker 5>so black. So aside from that making it a sort

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<v Speaker 5>of spooky, weird place, it also means that there's very

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<v Speaker 5>very little in the way of fish life in Lockness,

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<v Speaker 5>whereas Lochmar is completely clear, pure water and you can

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<v Speaker 5>see down forty to fifty feet quite easily, and as

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<v Speaker 5>a result it has a much more substantial food chain.

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<v Speaker 5>So there are a couple of quite major differences that

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<v Speaker 5>one would want to point to in terms of isolation

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<v Speaker 5>and the biomass as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Does anyone ever swim in Lockness?

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<v Speaker 4>It's pretty and cold.

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<v Speaker 5>I spent a couple of time in the in the

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<v Speaker 5>eighties working with the Lockness and Moile Project thing run

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<v Speaker 5>by a guy called Adrian Shine, which is the main

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<v Speaker 5>sort of investigative Strokes scientific group looking into that area,

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<v Speaker 5>and it was way too cold for me to want

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<v Speaker 5>swimmon it. And the same applies to Lockmore as well.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, you know, the very the top couple of

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<v Speaker 5>feet in the hot summer would warm up and everything

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<v Speaker 5>else would be pretty chilly.

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<v Speaker 2>I love Adrian's work, and he does have one of

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<v Speaker 2>the most spectacular beards in cryptozoology.

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<v Speaker 4>Makes even Charles Darwin looked like a bit of an antide.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he really does. I'd love to talk to him.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I've been I've been following his work since

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<v Speaker 2>I was a kid. And yeah, in such a memorable character.

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<v Speaker 3>So quick question.

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<v Speaker 2>This is really covering on secretor but along the shore

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<v Speaker 2>of likeness the there's the house that was owned by

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<v Speaker 2>Alistair Crowley. Yeah, Jimmy Page, Well in Jimmy Page And

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<v Speaker 2>is it bleskin or is it bullskin or how is

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<v Speaker 2>that pronounced?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I've always said bileskin, but I could easily be wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, You're probably more likely to be right than me.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, so, I.

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<v Speaker 3>I was just I was.

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<v Speaker 2>I've just started reading about Crowley a little bit lately

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<v Speaker 2>because I've become interested in the history of ritual magic

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<v Speaker 2>and that that whole sort of nineteen twenties resurgence of

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<v Speaker 2>paganistic sort of magical activity that happened in the UK

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<v Speaker 2>and Europe in general, and so while I was reading

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<v Speaker 2>about it, I saw that Bleskin had burned in twenty fifteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think more than half the house was ruined,

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<v Speaker 2>and I didn't know if they were going to put

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<v Speaker 2>it back together or whatever. But it seems like a

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful So not only was it a house where Crowley

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<v Speaker 2>performed ritual magic, but it's also right there on the

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<v Speaker 2>shore of Nest and I was like, how what a

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<v Speaker 2>cool place.

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<v Speaker 1>You know who.

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<v Speaker 2>It's privately owned unless the insurance company took over, but

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<v Speaker 2>I forget where the people were from, but it's a

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<v Speaker 2>it's a family that owned it and they were away.

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<v Speaker 2>They were it was like right around Christmas time twenty fifteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and they left to go shopping or something, and then

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<v Speaker 2>the house caught fire and by the time they got back.

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<v Speaker 3>It was like, I say, more than fifty percent gone.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really quite damaged and I'm not sure nobody was hurt,

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<v Speaker 2>which is great, but and they don't think any sort

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<v Speaker 2>of foul play or you know, it didn't seem to

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<v Speaker 2>be deliberately set. But I don't know if there's any

250
00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.679
<v Speaker 2>effort to restore it, because from what I've heard locally

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's kind of a not a popular place because

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<v Speaker 2>of all the legends about it. But anyway, not really

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<v Speaker 2>a monster story, but I am interested in.

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<v Speaker 3>It, so it may come up with another episode, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>Well we need to look more story if yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>You can. Again as I as I prefaced the question,

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<v Speaker 2>non sequitur, right, sorry, so actual question, like morre you're

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<v Speaker 2>on because there have been sidings of monsters, I guess

259
00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:08.039
<v Speaker 2>we should start with what sort of sightings have been

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<v Speaker 2>made and how far do these sightings go back?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean, this is the thing that's interesting to me.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, I have to say I'm not really a

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<v Speaker 5>cryptozoologist in this sense. I'm not really interested. I'm not

264
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<v Speaker 5>very convinced at the you know, with the concepts of

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<v Speaker 5>sort of real dinosaur like animals and any of these legs.

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<v Speaker 4>But the interesting thing, the fascinating.

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<v Speaker 5>Thing about Lockermore is that it's one of only there's

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<v Speaker 5>probably maybe three lakes in the world where there's a

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<v Speaker 5>sort of significant monster tradition that goes back before Lockness

270
00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:40.320
<v Speaker 5>comes onto the scene in nineteen thirty three. The others

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<v Speaker 5>might be Okanagan and here's my.

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<v Speaker 4>Plantation going again.

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<v Speaker 5>Canigan, I don't know, Inada in Canada and British Columbia

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<v Speaker 5>and Lake Sturgeon in Sweden. Those are the only two

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<v Speaker 5>others that I'm familiar with which have sort of substantial

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<v Speaker 5>numbers of reports that go back before nineteen thirty three.

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<v Speaker 5>And yeah, this is really important because Lockness made such

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00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:04.000
<v Speaker 5>a giant sort of splash in the news after nineteen

279
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.720
<v Speaker 5>thirty three that it sort of pollutes and tanks a

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00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.960
<v Speaker 5>whole of sort of lake monsters afterwards, and in terms

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00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:11.799
<v Speaker 5>of the types of things that are seen and then

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<v Speaker 5>particularly the way in which you know, the Lockness monster

283
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.720
<v Speaker 5>type of animal, the sort of long neck, multi hunt

284
00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.440
<v Speaker 5>dinosaur like animals sort of tends to become the default

285
00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:22.759
<v Speaker 5>for lake monsters. So one of the interesting things about

286
00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.159
<v Speaker 5>Lockmoer is that there's probably at least fifteen to twenty

287
00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.759
<v Speaker 5>reports that we have that go back before nineteen thirty three.

288
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:33.240
<v Speaker 5>And it's will be worthwhile talking a little bit in

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00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.919
<v Speaker 5>a moment about you know, how those are sort of

290
00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:40.399
<v Speaker 5>characterized and how they differ from Lockness. But I mean, overall,

291
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.480
<v Speaker 5>probably I guess we've got maybe nearly somewhere between seventeen

292
00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.360
<v Speaker 5>and one hundred cases I've probably been reported from Lockmower overall.

293
00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:50.200
<v Speaker 5>The earliest one goes back to about eighteen forty we think,

294
00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.440
<v Speaker 5>So it's not not just a couple.

295
00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:55.000
<v Speaker 3>That's a lie.

296
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:56.159
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it is.

297
00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:58.679
<v Speaker 1>It is. And so from what I've read, it seems

298
00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.360
<v Speaker 1>like some reports talk about a lake monster and others

299
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.360
<v Speaker 1>seem to talk about a mermaid. So do you think

300
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.759
<v Speaker 1>people are seeing the same creature or these different creatures.

301
00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:10.120
<v Speaker 5>Well, I think that this is what we're probably seeing,

302
00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:15.080
<v Speaker 5>I would say, is that the a legend coming into

303
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.039
<v Speaker 5>focus almost. I mean, you're right if you go back

304
00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.399
<v Speaker 5>to the very beginning, the Lochomower monster, if we want

305
00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.440
<v Speaker 5>to call it whatever we want to call it, is

306
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.919
<v Speaker 5>associated with sort of the deaths of members of a

307
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:31.600
<v Speaker 5>local clan. It's a it's something just seen as a

308
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.039
<v Speaker 5>sort of warning, a harbing go of something dreadful. It's

309
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:36.799
<v Speaker 5>going to happen to one of these guys. Normally they're

310
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:38.600
<v Speaker 5>going to die, or it's going to be a battle

311
00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:41.879
<v Speaker 5>or something like that. And it's the guineas on McDonald,

312
00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:47.559
<v Speaker 5>people of the northern shores of Lockermart specifically. So you

313
00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.200
<v Speaker 5>get one group of reports which are sort of essentially

314
00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.840
<v Speaker 5>seen as almost a funeral barge, some of black shapes

315
00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.360
<v Speaker 5>on the water. But there is this second set of

316
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:01.440
<v Speaker 5>stories which do refer to them so effectively as a

317
00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:04.840
<v Speaker 5>sort of half monster, half mermaid type creature. It's capable

318
00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.360
<v Speaker 5>of coming on land, it's kind of talking to people.

319
00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.399
<v Speaker 5>There's one sort of legend of Bedic coming and visiting

320
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:13.159
<v Speaker 5>a man in a Glenn Close lockmow, for example. So

321
00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:17.080
<v Speaker 5>it's clearly not just kind of a water animal in

322
00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.960
<v Speaker 5>these early stories. And there is a book which was

323
00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.320
<v Speaker 5>published in nineteen oh six by a guy called McDonald,

324
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.399
<v Speaker 5>James McDonald, who was distantly related to the relevant clan

325
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:31.559
<v Speaker 5>on the north Shore, called Tales of the Highlands, which

326
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:33.879
<v Speaker 5>is the one where you find this sort of version

327
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.879
<v Speaker 5>of events showing the monster as a mermaid, and he

328
00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.159
<v Speaker 5>dates back to eighteen eighty seven and says he's seen

329
00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:43.200
<v Speaker 5>something on the lock himself which he thinks must have

330
00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:46.879
<v Speaker 5>been this thing. And there is a second set of

331
00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.600
<v Speaker 5>stories that are told at about this time, and these

332
00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.519
<v Speaker 5>have already come to light very recently because they exist

333
00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.039
<v Speaker 5>in the collection called the Carmichael Collection, which is a

334
00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:00.120
<v Speaker 5>set of Gaelic folklore manuscripts that are stored in the

335
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.639
<v Speaker 5>University of Edinburgh, and there's a project going now to

336
00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:06.599
<v Speaker 5>transcribe these and from those who come several of these

337
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.880
<v Speaker 5>early Lockmoil reports, and what's interesting about them is that

338
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:14.920
<v Speaker 5>there's there's two initial entries in the Carmichael archive which

339
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:17.000
<v Speaker 5>talk about the first sort of monster. There's sort of

340
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:20.799
<v Speaker 5>just an undifferentiated black mass, a sort of black lump

341
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.200
<v Speaker 5>is one of the descriptions, sort of rolling around on

342
00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.319
<v Speaker 5>the surface, I mean, not really animal like at all.

343
00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:29.359
<v Speaker 5>And then a few months later there's a second one

344
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.920
<v Speaker 5>which is exactly like the James McDonald's story. And so

345
00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:36.000
<v Speaker 5>one speculates that this guy has probably talked to somebody,

346
00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.440
<v Speaker 5>maybe McDonald himself or somebod who knows McDonald and got

347
00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.519
<v Speaker 5>a sort of a second story trope from him. So

348
00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.519
<v Speaker 5>you have these sort of two quite different sets of

349
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:50.000
<v Speaker 5>stories in the late nineteenth century, which by the time

350
00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:52.720
<v Speaker 5>lock Meess comes along, they sort of solidify into just.

351
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.880
<v Speaker 4>Another late monster. And I think that it would be.

352
00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.519
<v Speaker 5>A very good idea to go back and explore in

353
00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:01.759
<v Speaker 5>as much detail as possible how these earlier stories sort

354
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.519
<v Speaker 5>of work and what they're for in order to really

355
00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:06.119
<v Speaker 5>understand what's going on in Lockmore.

356
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:09.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it was as a clarification.

357
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to understand, are the oldest stories that you've found,

358
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:16.839
<v Speaker 2>are they actually alleged sightings or are they sort of folklore?

359
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Does the folklore pre data sightings, I guess is my question.

360
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:21.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean essentially yes.

361
00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:23.960
<v Speaker 5>I mean what you start with is a massive stories

362
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.640
<v Speaker 5>which are extremely undetailed.

363
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:27.759
<v Speaker 4>And along the lines.

364
00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:29.359
<v Speaker 5>I mean, you know, I said I said earlier that

365
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.960
<v Speaker 5>the first story dates back to the to eighteen forty

366
00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:34.799
<v Speaker 5>and we can date it by this because you know,

367
00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.079
<v Speaker 5>what we have is simply a line in the Carmichael

368
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:42.359
<v Speaker 5>papers saying and it appeared just before Ian Rudd Ready

369
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.039
<v Speaker 5>Ian died, and we know that this guy died.

370
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:46.200
<v Speaker 4>In eighteen forty. But that's it.

371
00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:48.160
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it's that they're only interested in the fact

372
00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:50.519
<v Speaker 5>that it appeared and then he died, because it's a

373
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:54.200
<v Speaker 5>confirmation of the folklore trope that it's a harbinger of death,

374
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:56.799
<v Speaker 5>and so you would expect someone to die. And there's

375
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:00.759
<v Speaker 5>the most notable landowner in that area at the time

376
00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:02.519
<v Speaker 5>of the turn the century, at the time of sort

377
00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:07.440
<v Speaker 5>of Queen Victoria's death, was a guy called Angus Natregue.

378
00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:09.880
<v Speaker 5>And again, I mean he died in eighteen ninety eight,

379
00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:11.920
<v Speaker 5>and the monster Lockemore was.

380
00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:13.319
<v Speaker 4>Seen just before he died as well.

381
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:15.480
<v Speaker 5>And so really all you are getting there is a

382
00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:20.440
<v Speaker 5>kind of internal confirmation of a story, which is to

383
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.920
<v Speaker 5>do with it being a sign important and no interest

384
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.079
<v Speaker 5>at all in the idea of well, this thing could

385
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.359
<v Speaker 5>be an animal or anything like that. It's completely differently

386
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.079
<v Speaker 5>situated within the sort of folklore spectrum at that point.

387
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.680
<v Speaker 2>So quick additional follow up, So from a and this

388
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.079
<v Speaker 2>is my ignorance, but I think it might be important.

389
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:42.960
<v Speaker 3>From a historical perspective.

390
00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:46.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the nature of British journalism was

391
00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:50.440
<v Speaker 2>in eighteen forty was it? It seemed like in America in

392
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:55.119
<v Speaker 2>the eighteen hundreds. The newspapers they can be historically useful,

393
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.240
<v Speaker 2>but they also kind of mix in things that aren't

394
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.160
<v Speaker 2>true with with the sort of a stew was kind

395
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.559
<v Speaker 2>of hard to pick out what's supposed to be legitimately

396
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.400
<v Speaker 2>actually factual and what might be an entertainment sort of nearly.

397
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.960
<v Speaker 3>Is that a problem in old British papers or is it?

398
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:14.880
<v Speaker 4>I certainly wouldn't deny.

399
00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.519
<v Speaker 5>I don't think there's quite the same tradition of sort

400
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.279
<v Speaker 5>of tall tail telling as a as a form of

401
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.240
<v Speaker 5>entertainment in newspapers.

402
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.519
<v Speaker 4>There's one season. I mean, I've done a.

403
00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:27.519
<v Speaker 5>Little bit of work on some of these sort of

404
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:31.960
<v Speaker 5>early American airship sighting, so exactly, Yes, clearly this is

405
00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:34.480
<v Speaker 5>something which plays on I mean, the tall taiale telling

406
00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:36.279
<v Speaker 5>is something that plays a large part on the spread

407
00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:37.200
<v Speaker 5>of those sorts of stories.

408
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:37.839
<v Speaker 4>I mean, yeah.

409
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:39.680
<v Speaker 5>The reality, as I mentioned earlier, is that lockermow was

410
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.519
<v Speaker 5>actually so distant that there was no local newspaper in

411
00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.200
<v Speaker 5>the nineteenth century. The nearest would be the Oben Times,

412
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.920
<v Speaker 5>and Oben is like, you know, fifty sixty miles to

413
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.680
<v Speaker 5>the north of Lockmowre or the you know, the Invernestua Courier,

414
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.000
<v Speaker 5>which is the paper that first reported the lockmess Monster.

415
00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:56.160
<v Speaker 5>You know, covered that area. But I mean none of

416
00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:58.119
<v Speaker 5>these stories made the press at all. I mean you

417
00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:00.960
<v Speaker 5>you get them as a saying by folklore is talking

418
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.279
<v Speaker 5>to people. There was a famous monk from for ad

419
00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:06.400
<v Speaker 5>Augustus Abbey. For Augustus Abbey, of course, is right at

420
00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:10.519
<v Speaker 5>the southern end of Loch Ness who did a lot

421
00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:14.400
<v Speaker 5>of work amongst parishioners in the west coast of Scotland

422
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.200
<v Speaker 5>and recorded stories from Lockmore around Lost Shield as well,

423
00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:22.440
<v Speaker 5>because you know he was the only person essentially who's

424
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:24.920
<v Speaker 5>in a position to get this sort of stuff and

425
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:29.039
<v Speaker 5>actually put it down in writing. There's no local written

426
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.359
<v Speaker 5>tradition of anything happening until well, certainly not the in

427
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:36.000
<v Speaker 5>nineteen twenties or nineteen thirties, you know. But what you

428
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.480
<v Speaker 5>do see start to see happening around about the turn

429
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:41.119
<v Speaker 5>of the last century is as a result of the

430
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:44.640
<v Speaker 5>clearances and the establishment of sporting estates in the west

431
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:48.519
<v Speaker 5>of Scotland, you start getting outsiders and they start picking

432
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.440
<v Speaker 5>up on stories in the same sort of way, and

433
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.720
<v Speaker 5>they're talking about it very much. Is kind of you know,

434
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.680
<v Speaker 5>odd interesting bits of local folklore. I mean, the famous

435
00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.240
<v Speaker 5>example actually comes from lock Arcade, which is literally next

436
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.319
<v Speaker 5>door to Lockmow. There's a connection that Glenn between the two.

437
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.119
<v Speaker 5>They're about ten miles apart, where Lord Malmesbury, who was

438
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.519
<v Speaker 5>actually the British Foreign Minister in the eighteen fifties, had

439
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:12.839
<v Speaker 5>a shot there and talked to one of his stalkers,

440
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:14.440
<v Speaker 5>and you know they were talking to him about the

441
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.640
<v Speaker 5>local water horse kelpie. You know that there could only

442
00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:21.039
<v Speaker 5>be one at a time. They come in different lakes,

443
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:23.160
<v Speaker 5>but you know there's any one in the Hole of Scotland,

444
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:26.839
<v Speaker 5>and there's one scene in lock Arcaic in the eighteen fifties,

445
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.240
<v Speaker 5>and so he wrote down this story in his memoirs,

446
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.799
<v Speaker 5>which are published in eighteen fifty seven. So occasion you

447
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.720
<v Speaker 5>get these sort of outsiders, sort of amused takes on

448
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.359
<v Speaker 5>Gaelic vocalore, and again you're kind of seeing it through

449
00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:43.160
<v Speaker 5>a rather distorted lens as a result, because you know,

450
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.720
<v Speaker 5>they're having it translated for them by some local gilly

451
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:51.680
<v Speaker 5>and sort of fishing fishing helper that is, and they're

452
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:54.200
<v Speaker 5>probably not really getting the full flavor of what the

453
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.000
<v Speaker 5>local people would have thought about all of this.

454
00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Do you think there's any connection at all between more

455
00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Egg and the Lockness monster or are they completely separate creatures?

456
00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:07.880
<v Speaker 5>Well, I mean, this is the interesting thing I suppose

457
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.559
<v Speaker 5>about the the reason we're talking now. I mean you

458
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.599
<v Speaker 5>could say there are two obviously from the cryptos ologist

459
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.279
<v Speaker 5>point of view. You know the problem I have with

460
00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:19.839
<v Speaker 5>the average cryptosologists. They tend to kind of blunder in,

461
00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.440
<v Speaker 5>grab whatever they think could possibly be a distorted version

462
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.200
<v Speaker 5>of a story about a real animal stripper out of

463
00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.920
<v Speaker 5>its storytelling context, and kind of you know, look for

464
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.519
<v Speaker 5>anatomical features almost literally. But the other thing you can

465
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.000
<v Speaker 5>do is say that, you know, there's obviously also the

466
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.880
<v Speaker 5>possibility that all of these stories have their origins in

467
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.680
<v Speaker 5>Gaelic folklore and the idea of you know, the stories

468
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:43.960
<v Speaker 5>of water horses, water bulls and all this, I mean,

469
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.240
<v Speaker 5>the Highland stories a poketails are full of these sorts

470
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:49.880
<v Speaker 5>of stories. And you know, in the kelpie, which is

471
00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:52.960
<v Speaker 5>something which you Lockness is often supposed to be. You know,

472
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:54.640
<v Speaker 5>you look back and people say, well, they're all these

473
00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:57.359
<v Speaker 5>reports are kelpies around Lockness, and these probably if you're

474
00:23:57.400 --> 00:23:59.519
<v Speaker 5>seeing the monster, you know, in fact, the kelpie is

475
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:04.000
<v Speaker 5>a kind of a a demonic figure in Highland folk

476
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.119
<v Speaker 5>or it's a sort of demonic horse which when it

477
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:11.119
<v Speaker 5>gets hovers around the edges of the lock, looking beautiful

478
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:13.319
<v Speaker 5>with a bridle and a saddle on and sort of

479
00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:15.880
<v Speaker 5>lures young girls to get on its back, and the

480
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:18.680
<v Speaker 5>second they're on board that it tears off and drowns

481
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:20.599
<v Speaker 5>him in the lock and takes them down to its

482
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.200
<v Speaker 5>underwater palace and sort of you know, they're dead. So

483
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:28.920
<v Speaker 5>it's not not a monster really at all, but people

484
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:30.839
<v Speaker 5>kind of co opt elements of it and just say,

485
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.680
<v Speaker 5>you know, strange thing on the shores of the lock.

486
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:33.400
<v Speaker 4>It must have been.

487
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:36.400
<v Speaker 5>What we're seeing is a distorted bit of folkal which

488
00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.640
<v Speaker 5>is a real monster. So I think that one would

489
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.240
<v Speaker 5>want to upend that and say, you know, possibly what

490
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.559
<v Speaker 5>we're really seeing is folklore stories that are getting turned

491
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:47.480
<v Speaker 5>into something which is a bit more deterministic at a

492
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:49.839
<v Speaker 5>time when folklore is at a low premium by the

493
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:54.119
<v Speaker 5>nineteen twenties, nineteen thirty and you know, all the things

494
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:56.759
<v Speaker 5>that we've doubtless talk about with other guests, you know,

495
00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.400
<v Speaker 5>the you know, the the animations of monsters and Lost

496
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.480
<v Speaker 5>World films and things like that sort of start kind

497
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.519
<v Speaker 5>and stories about dinosaurs, of course, and we can start

498
00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:08.799
<v Speaker 5>with the dinosaurs all come in and start informing a

499
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:10.400
<v Speaker 5>new way of looking at these things.

500
00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:14.559
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and especially when, as you've probably heard me say,

501
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm fond of saying this that when when cryptozoological creatures

502
00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:22.839
<v Speaker 2>are derived from movies, I like to call them scriptids,

503
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:27.160
<v Speaker 2>and I am I'm so fond of that term. So

504
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:29.440
<v Speaker 2>I am going to use this as another opportunity to

505
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:35.039
<v Speaker 2>spread it, get it out there people. So these varieties

506
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:39.960
<v Speaker 2>of sightings, I mean we're talking about a lot of

507
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.559
<v Speaker 2>different I want to say morphological patterns here. This is

508
00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.119
<v Speaker 2>these they don't seem to be describing the same creature

509
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.519
<v Speaker 2>in every story. Can you talk a little bit about

510
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:53.960
<v Speaker 2>what people are seeing as far as the physical characteristics.

511
00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:56.680
<v Speaker 5>Well, we can go through this a little bit. I mean,

512
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.240
<v Speaker 5>at the beginning, as I say, I mean, most of

513
00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:04.559
<v Speaker 5>the stories are a very specifically, very vague black rolling

514
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.640
<v Speaker 5>heaps on the black rolling heaps on the surface, shadows

515
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.759
<v Speaker 5>under the surface, you know, sort of to a boat

516
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.640
<v Speaker 5>pulling two smaller boats, which of course the crypto orgis

517
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.599
<v Speaker 5>would say that must be a three monster.

518
00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:19.559
<v Speaker 4>But they're very specifically described as boats.

519
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:24.680
<v Speaker 5>So yes, you then end up, you know, by the

520
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:26.680
<v Speaker 5>nineteen twenties nineteen thirties, with things that are.

521
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:28.519
<v Speaker 4>Much more like the Lockness monster.

522
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.119
<v Speaker 5>Now you know, I've standed, you know, even more than

523
00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:34.920
<v Speaker 5>my usual skeptical self so far. But I must stress

524
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:37.839
<v Speaker 5>that the other interesting thing about Lochmar, which makes it

525
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.119
<v Speaker 5>very unlike Lockness is that it does have a dramatic

526
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:46.640
<v Speaker 5>history of very very very close up sightings, which you know,

527
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:49.480
<v Speaker 5>however skeptical wants to be. I mean, it removes that

528
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:51.920
<v Speaker 5>the way in which one tends to do with a

529
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.839
<v Speaker 5>lot of Lockness stories if one is a skeptic, but

530
00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:57.400
<v Speaker 5>you know, a humanistic skeptic is to say, well, a

531
00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:00.359
<v Speaker 5>lot of them are probably just mistaken, you know, they say, obviously.

532
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.559
<v Speaker 5>Lockness is famous for examples. It's a classic natural wave tank.

533
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:08.599
<v Speaker 5>It's a long narrow waves from passing ships roll out,

534
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:10.359
<v Speaker 5>hit the shore, comeback meet in the middle and you

535
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:12.319
<v Speaker 5>get this sort of long, low hump effect, which if

536
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.279
<v Speaker 5>you're looking at it from a shallow angle because you're

537
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:16.839
<v Speaker 5>standing on the shore, looks really quite dramatic. I've seen

538
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:18.920
<v Speaker 5>it myself, and you know, it's very easy to understand

539
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:23.240
<v Speaker 5>why people are reporting dramatic multi humpt animals quite honestly,

540
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:25.920
<v Speaker 5>now what happens in Lockmore, as you know, you get

541
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:26.960
<v Speaker 5>a lot of that is removed.

542
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:27.200
<v Speaker 4>I mean.

543
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.240
<v Speaker 5>The most famous of all the reports from Lockmore is

544
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.440
<v Speaker 5>the McDonald Simpson sighting, which dates to August nineteen sixty nine,

545
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:38.079
<v Speaker 5>where these two local Scottish guys, both very highly respected

546
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.759
<v Speaker 5>in the community by the way, were traveling down the

547
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:43.960
<v Speaker 5>in a small boat with an at board motor on

548
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:49.839
<v Speaker 5>a fishing expedition and they saw that three humps were

549
00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:52.559
<v Speaker 5>sort of converging on their boat, and in fact, whatever

550
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.279
<v Speaker 5>it was in their account came up bumped accidentally against

551
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:58.359
<v Speaker 5>the side of the boat, and one of them had

552
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.440
<v Speaker 5>to fend it off with an all I mean literally

553
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:03.400
<v Speaker 5>pressed against whatever with an ord to try and force

554
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.920
<v Speaker 5>it away, while his mate went and probly loaded a

555
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.319
<v Speaker 5>rifle which they presumably had on boarded a bit of

556
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:10.599
<v Speaker 5>proaching and sort of fired a while shot in its direction.

557
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:13.599
<v Speaker 5>So you know, I mean, you can't say that's a

558
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:17.000
<v Speaker 5>mistaken identity. I mean, you know they're talking about three humps,

559
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:20.400
<v Speaker 5>you know, a head held low over the water. You know,

560
00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:22.559
<v Speaker 5>they can describe its texture, they can describe the feel

561
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:24.759
<v Speaker 5>of pressing against it. This is either you know, an

562
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.400
<v Speaker 5>out and out hoax, or you know they've encountered some

563
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:31.160
<v Speaker 5>sort of interesting thing. I mean, their own explanation for it,

564
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.359
<v Speaker 5>by the way, was not a dinosaur out.

565
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:35.480
<v Speaker 4>And wants a but a giant deal.

566
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.799
<v Speaker 5>And there's another report actually literally from the month before

567
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:44.039
<v Speaker 5>that of a guy called Robert Duff who was on

568
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:46.880
<v Speaker 5>holiday there from Edinburgh, who again was fishing, and again

569
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:49.599
<v Speaker 5>this is where the clear water is coming. Who's fishing

570
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:51.839
<v Speaker 5>in Meeble Bay, which is about halfway down the lock

571
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:53.240
<v Speaker 5>and again not one of the parts.

572
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.759
<v Speaker 4>Of the lake that's overseen by anybody.

573
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:57.759
<v Speaker 5>And looks down over the side of the boat, down

574
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:00.279
<v Speaker 5>twenty through twenty feet of water the bottom and there's

575
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:02.519
<v Speaker 5>this sort of what he describes as a monster lizard

576
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:05.880
<v Speaker 5>looking up at him with and he can see four

577
00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:09.440
<v Speaker 5>legs digits on each foot. It's really quite clear. So again,

578
00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:13.200
<v Speaker 5>I mean, you're you're not necessarily talking about a case

579
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 5>of mistaken identity with cases that are that close, and

580
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.319
<v Speaker 5>that's dramatic, and I think that's the other interesting thing

581
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:20.759
<v Speaker 5>about the Lockmower imports to me.

582
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 3>Sure.

583
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:27.000
<v Speaker 1>So aside from these sightings, has there been any physical

584
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:29.839
<v Speaker 1>evidence that's turned up or any photographs.

585
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:32.720
<v Speaker 4>There's a few photographs. They're the usual sort of thing.

586
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:35.039
<v Speaker 5>They're not very different to lock messic so they're not

587
00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:36.559
<v Speaker 5>as good. But then of course we know the most

588
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:41.160
<v Speaker 5>Lockermoess photographs that are fake and that's why they.

589
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.440
<v Speaker 4>Again, I mean we talked we mentioned that Adrian Shine earlier.

590
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:48.119
<v Speaker 5>Adrian started off at Lockmore because he thought that it

591
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:50.440
<v Speaker 5>was a better place to investigate. And this is back

592
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:52.559
<v Speaker 5>in the days when he was more of a monster

593
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:54.799
<v Speaker 5>hunt when he is now nowadays. He would very much

594
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:56.240
<v Speaker 5>like to be seen as a scientist, and most of

595
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:58.559
<v Speaker 5>the work he does is sort of you know, studies

596
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:01.039
<v Speaker 5>of fish stocks and things like that, actually is good

597
00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:03.640
<v Speaker 5>quality scientific work. But back then he was more of

598
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.119
<v Speaker 5>an adventurer and a monster hunter. And the first thing

599
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:09.279
<v Speaker 5>he did at Lockermowre was he built himself this tiny

600
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:12.480
<v Speaker 5>little sort of submersible thing which is literally just kind

601
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.960
<v Speaker 5>of a pod which he could sit in, and he

602
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:17.480
<v Speaker 5>sank it down in the loch about twenty feet, which

603
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.920
<v Speaker 5>is an almost suicidally dumb thing to do, in my opinion.

604
00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:23.519
<v Speaker 5>The idea was that you would he had this sort

605
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.119
<v Speaker 5>of viewing portal looking upwards, and he thought that the

606
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.480
<v Speaker 5>best way of identifying what's an animal he was looking

607
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.079
<v Speaker 5>for would be sort of sit on the bottom and

608
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:32.920
<v Speaker 5>wait for a monster's from over him, so he'd get

609
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:35.160
<v Speaker 5>it sort of silhouetted against the surface and he'd be

610
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:37.920
<v Speaker 5>able to see lots of sort of morphological characteristics. So

611
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:39.839
<v Speaker 5>he spent quite a lot of time sitting on the

612
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:42.839
<v Speaker 5>bottom of Lockmower hoping for this to happen, which it didn't,

613
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:45.960
<v Speaker 5>and when that happened, he then then his next step

614
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:48.279
<v Speaker 5>was to get a sort of glass bottomed boat, and

615
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.279
<v Speaker 5>he did a survey of the whole of the lock

616
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:53.480
<v Speaker 5>sort of down to about twenty feet so you sailed around.

617
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:55.839
<v Speaker 5>It's eleven miles long, So he sailed around all twenty

618
00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:58.160
<v Speaker 5>two miles a shoreline up to about twenty feet out,

619
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:00.119
<v Speaker 5>looking in the hope he might find a car, a

620
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:02.759
<v Speaker 5>sort of skeleton or something again without any luck. But

621
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.400
<v Speaker 5>you know, those are the sort of things that are

622
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:07.480
<v Speaker 5>possible in Lockermore that has something be completely impossible in Lockness.

623
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:11.640
<v Speaker 5>So one would have thought, if ever one is going

624
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:13.839
<v Speaker 5>to find the sort of physical evidence that would actually

625
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:17.039
<v Speaker 5>excite a crypto as well just an interested actual scientist.

626
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:19.240
<v Speaker 5>More is the place it's going to happen.

627
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.079
<v Speaker 3>So the lake is very deep.

628
00:31:24.279 --> 00:31:25.599
<v Speaker 4>It's the deepest lake in British.

629
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:29.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so that's how long is it? I mean, because

630
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:30.039
<v Speaker 3>I mean.

631
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.400
<v Speaker 5>It's eleven miles it's eleven miles long, which is half

632
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:38.440
<v Speaker 5>the length of Lockness, okay, and one and seventeen feet deep,

633
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:40.759
<v Speaker 5>whereas Lockness is about seven hundred and fifty feet deep,

634
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.000
<v Speaker 5>So it's got about another two hundred and fifty three

635
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:44.359
<v Speaker 5>hundred feet on Lockness.

636
00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:46.880
<v Speaker 4>That's an very small part of the bottom. But it's

637
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 4>very it is jolly deep. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, very icy.

638
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, so was it also like lock Ness was

639
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:57.559
<v Speaker 2>cut by glaciers if I remember correctly, And yes, it

640
00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:00.240
<v Speaker 2>is the same true for more are well.

641
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:05.319
<v Speaker 5>I'm not a geologist, I would imagine that I believe

642
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:09.079
<v Speaker 5>that to be true, but yes, absolutely, And it's what

643
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:11.039
<v Speaker 5>you don't You don't have the same sort of bottom

644
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:14.400
<v Speaker 5>characteristics as you do in Lockness though, so it's been

645
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.400
<v Speaker 5>cut in a such slightly different way. And there's also

646
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:19.240
<v Speaker 5>no sort of large rivers flowing in. I mean in

647
00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.559
<v Speaker 5>Lockness there's famous to kind of two deep basins and

648
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.240
<v Speaker 5>they're separated because there's a river halfway down that's been

649
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:27.240
<v Speaker 5>sort of pouring silt into the water into the lake

650
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:29.720
<v Speaker 5>for ten thousand years, and so there's kind of a

651
00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:32.480
<v Speaker 5>ridge is built up halfway down. The lake on the

652
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.400
<v Speaker 5>bottom close to the sea is really very shallow and

653
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.240
<v Speaker 5>there are a few islands there, which is not a

654
00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:40.279
<v Speaker 5>characteristic Lockness, which is fairly typically deep all the way across.

655
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:43.200
<v Speaker 2>So have there been any I just want to say,

656
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.480
<v Speaker 2>have there been any of those sort of sonar surveys

657
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.599
<v Speaker 2>or that kind of exploration of the lake where they

658
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:49.200
<v Speaker 2>you know.

659
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:50.759
<v Speaker 3>I imagine it was easy.

660
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:53.240
<v Speaker 2>It was easier to get funding for like nests because

661
00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:54.480
<v Speaker 2>of its same you know.

662
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.480
<v Speaker 5>Well absolutely, and there hasn't been the same level of investigation.

663
00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:01.359
<v Speaker 5>I mean, yeah, both nests and more thoroughly surveyed by

664
00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:04.880
<v Speaker 5>the famous pathemetric survey that went around this all Scottish

665
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:08.440
<v Speaker 5>major lakes in the between about eighteen nineteen nineteen ten,

666
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.680
<v Speaker 5>and that's how we know how deep it is. So that,

667
00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:14.960
<v Speaker 5>but that was done literally by of chucking away over

668
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.440
<v Speaker 5>the side of a rowing boat and then hauling it

669
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:19.920
<v Speaker 5>back up and checking it over again several thousand times.

670
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:22.960
<v Speaker 5>So it wasn't quite the sort of modern sonar survey

671
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:23.480
<v Speaker 5>type of thing.

672
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:26.640
<v Speaker 1>So you've told us a little bit about some of

673
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.880
<v Speaker 1>the expeditions that have taken place there. Could you tell

674
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:33.599
<v Speaker 1>us some more about the various expeditions that people have

675
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:35.279
<v Speaker 1>undertaken to find the creature?

676
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:40.000
<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean this didn't really happen till the late sixties.

677
00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:42.519
<v Speaker 5>I mean the McDonald simpson report, the one where the

678
00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.519
<v Speaker 5>monster bumped into a boat made it into the papers,

679
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 5>much to the annoyance of the two guys. Actually they

680
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:50.759
<v Speaker 5>vowed not to talk about it, but they meant they

681
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:52.839
<v Speaker 5>had told some relatives, and some one of their relatives

682
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:56.240
<v Speaker 5>told the papers, and when that report came out, the

683
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.640
<v Speaker 5>Lockness Investigation Bureau been active at Lockness for three or

684
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.599
<v Speaker 5>four years at that point got interested and you know,

685
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:06.119
<v Speaker 5>again because of the physical characteristics and more, a small

686
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.039
<v Speaker 5>group of people, led by a woman called Elizabeth Montgomery Campbell,

687
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:11.719
<v Speaker 5>got the idea that it might be more likely they

688
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.880
<v Speaker 5>could get a quick result at Lockmore. I mean this

689
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.480
<v Speaker 5>was the an IB had already begun to get a

690
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:20.360
<v Speaker 5>bit frustrated by the amount of sort of camera hours

691
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:22.079
<v Speaker 5>it was putting in at Lockness without getting any.

692
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:23.079
<v Speaker 4>Sort of real results.

693
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:27.159
<v Speaker 5>And so the Lockmow Survey began in nineteen sixty nine,

694
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.519
<v Speaker 5>nineteen seventies seventy one, so it ran for about three years,

695
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:33.920
<v Speaker 5>and then Adrian Shine took over in the mid seventies,

696
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:37.880
<v Speaker 5>but then largely for the fundraising reasons I think you mentioned,

697
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:41.360
<v Speaker 5>he relocated to Lockness in the in the early eighties.

698
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.119
<v Speaker 5>So there hasn't been a significant a mand of work

699
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:48.079
<v Speaker 5>done at Lockmore now for thirty five or forty years.

700
00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:52.320
<v Speaker 5>And it's very much the sort of little Sister from

701
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:55.159
<v Speaker 5>the point of your actual investigation, which again in a

702
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:58.039
<v Speaker 5>way makes it much more interesting, because you know, the

703
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:03.760
<v Speaker 5>Lockness thing has been so carefully investigating now that you

704
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:06.519
<v Speaker 5>can kind of, in my view at least speak of

705
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.039
<v Speaker 5>someone who's involved in it. You can pretty much rule

706
00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:13.679
<v Speaker 5>out there being actual large numbers of large anivine animals

707
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:15.360
<v Speaker 5>and nocamaths. We just know too much about it now

708
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.880
<v Speaker 5>for that to be true. So the romance really is

709
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:20.639
<v Speaker 5>still over in Lockmore where that work hasn't been done,

710
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.480
<v Speaker 5>so that the ruling out process hasn't got very far yet.

711
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:28.119
<v Speaker 2>So I think from what you've told us so far,

712
00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:33.079
<v Speaker 2>we could kind of split the sort of story of

713
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:38.239
<v Speaker 2>this place into folklore versus actual sightings, Like, if you

714
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:40.920
<v Speaker 2>want to split it that way, there's stories and then

715
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:42.679
<v Speaker 2>there's people actually seeing things.

716
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:44.000
<v Speaker 4>Now.

717
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:48.199
<v Speaker 2>A favorite hobby of the armchair skeptic is to say, well,

718
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.760
<v Speaker 2>what big animals exist there that might be mistaken for

719
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:56.519
<v Speaker 2>a monster? And I guess it's part of our due

720
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:59.400
<v Speaker 2>diligence to ask. I'm not saying that there's definitely a

721
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.119
<v Speaker 2>physical nature of everything people have seen, but I am curious.

722
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Are there things like seals or big otters or any

723
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:07.400
<v Speaker 2>that sort of thing.

724
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.039
<v Speaker 5>Well, it's very I mean, I guess the situation is

725
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:12.840
<v Speaker 5>relatively similar to Lockness, So in lochmar is even closer

726
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:13.920
<v Speaker 5>to the sea than lock Ness.

727
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:14.039
<v Speaker 4>Is.

728
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:16.280
<v Speaker 5>The problem with lock Ness and the whole idea of

729
00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:19.199
<v Speaker 5>things getting into the lock is that the river Ness

730
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.599
<v Speaker 5>which flows from the sea.

731
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:21.920
<v Speaker 4>To Lockness or vice versa.

732
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.599
<v Speaker 5>I should say, it flows directly through the middle of

733
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:26.719
<v Speaker 5>Intervernest and you can drive into internsts and sea. Guys

734
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.039
<v Speaker 5>standing in the middle of this river in their wade

735
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.119
<v Speaker 5>is fishing. So it's obviously not a very deep river either,

736
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.559
<v Speaker 5>but it's about six or seven miles I guess long,

737
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.960
<v Speaker 5>whereas in Lockmore. Lockmo is actually one of its geographical

738
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.119
<v Speaker 5>curiosities is it is home to the shortest river in

739
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:46.039
<v Speaker 5>the British Isles. It's only just over half a mile long,

740
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:48.960
<v Speaker 5>so it's literally up against the edge of the sea,

741
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:50.880
<v Speaker 5>and there's a half mile long river connecting it to

742
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:54.320
<v Speaker 5>the sea. And I hadn't heard any stories specifically about seals,

743
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.239
<v Speaker 5>but you would expect that would be entirely possible that

744
00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:59.280
<v Speaker 5>seals could get up that half mile long river.

745
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:00.480
<v Speaker 4>And into the lake.

746
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:02.400
<v Speaker 5>The other thing, of course, which you could see in

747
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:05.039
<v Speaker 5>the lake would be deer, and I mean there's certainly

748
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:09.519
<v Speaker 5>some cases from lock Ness which almost certainly are sightings

749
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.840
<v Speaker 5>of swimming deer. So and of course you know you

750
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:15.360
<v Speaker 5>have the if you think about the head and neck

751
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:17.559
<v Speaker 5>of a deer, it's quite similar to this typical sort

752
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:19.519
<v Speaker 5>of head and neck quarts you quite often get from

753
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:22.880
<v Speaker 5>places like lock Ness, So that is definitely another possibility.

754
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.519
<v Speaker 5>And certainly there is a quite lively local tradition that

755
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:29.639
<v Speaker 5>more of the lock being full of sort of overgrown

756
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.119
<v Speaker 5>eels as well, not necessarily the sort of thirty foot

757
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.639
<v Speaker 5>superheel that you would need to explain some of these stories,

758
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:37.280
<v Speaker 5>but you know, five six seven foot long eels, so

759
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:41.119
<v Speaker 5>that's also a possibility. And of course it's also I mean,

760
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:43.239
<v Speaker 5>as I mentioned earlier, it's got quite a large biomass,

761
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:46.840
<v Speaker 5>and it's full of salmon, so fish that swim sort

762
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.159
<v Speaker 5>of fast and along the surface and can create v

763
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.840
<v Speaker 5>wakes and so on certainly exists there as well.

764
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:56.039
<v Speaker 2>That I love the idea of these big mammals land

765
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:00.320
<v Speaker 2>mammals sort of crossing bodies of water. Personally, I'm not

766
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:03.039
<v Speaker 2>saying this is the explanation for every signing of Caddy

767
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:07.119
<v Speaker 2>the ked Borisaurus, but the idea of a moose in

768
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:09.679
<v Speaker 2>the water and you look out and see a moose crossing.

769
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, that's so reminiscent of some of the

770
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:13.960
<v Speaker 2>things people have seen.

771
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.800
<v Speaker 5>Well, if you look at the sketches, you're absolutely right,

772
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:19.800
<v Speaker 5>and you certainly a locknest is one of the more

773
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.760
<v Speaker 5>dramatic sightings by a woman called Greta findn't they her

774
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:25.440
<v Speaker 5>son in the nineteen fifties, who saw sort of two

775
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.440
<v Speaker 5>hunt long neck creature. Again, it was quite close up, actually,

776
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:30.280
<v Speaker 5>it was only one hundred yards or so away from them,

777
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:34.320
<v Speaker 5>just offshore, and there's quite a lively debate about whether

778
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.440
<v Speaker 5>or not they could have seen a deer. I mean

779
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:38.880
<v Speaker 5>the thing they sort of looked very deer like, but

780
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:41.519
<v Speaker 5>of course it then sort of submerged under the water

781
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:45.159
<v Speaker 5>without apparently much of a struggle, so that the average

782
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:47.760
<v Speaker 5>to believe in the ons say, well, how do we

783
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:49.840
<v Speaker 5>had one of the chances of them being a deer

784
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.039
<v Speaker 5>just having a heart attack as they look at it

785
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.880
<v Speaker 5>in a dire So again, I mean a lot, a

786
00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:59.039
<v Speaker 5>lot comes back to it, which is just so frustrating,

787
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:01.119
<v Speaker 5>isn't it The whole kind of how accurately are we

788
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:01.960
<v Speaker 5>getting these reports?

789
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:04.960
<v Speaker 4>And how good are the witnesses and.

790
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:07.119
<v Speaker 5>How credible are there, you know, sort of the Irish

791
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.440
<v Speaker 5>supports we're getting in terms of the accuracy levels. Given

792
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:12.480
<v Speaker 5>that one is not expecting to see something you want

793
00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.519
<v Speaker 5>to see something that's quite dramatic, maybe even quite scary,

794
00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:21.239
<v Speaker 5>it's not ideal circumstances for a very accurate cold blooded

795
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:24.639
<v Speaker 5>Ivans support really in any of these circumstances.

796
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:28.280
<v Speaker 1>So you've spoken about some sidings from the fifties and

797
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:32.119
<v Speaker 1>in particular the sixties. Are there any contemporary sightings.

798
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.039
<v Speaker 4>Of course there are a few. Yes, I mean again

799
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:37.639
<v Speaker 4>one tends to hear about this almost by chance.

800
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.960
<v Speaker 5>For a lot of the time, a lot of the

801
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.440
<v Speaker 5>local people are quite keen for Lockermowe not become Lockness,

802
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:46.480
<v Speaker 5>especially in terms of I mean they quite like it

803
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:50.360
<v Speaker 5>being quiet and lin to want to attract lots of tourists.

804
00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:53.400
<v Speaker 5>So there is a local not even a newspaper with

805
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:57.440
<v Speaker 5>it's kind of a community newsletter called Westward, which is

806
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:01.519
<v Speaker 5>published there, which very occasionally, you know, reports something along

807
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:06.239
<v Speaker 5>these lines. Almost always it's from a visitor, a tourist,

808
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:09.360
<v Speaker 5>normally something he's gone fishing there, and it's very some

809
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:11.159
<v Speaker 5>of the sorts of things that we've been talking about

810
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:13.519
<v Speaker 5>sort of you know, a low hump in the water,

811
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:16.440
<v Speaker 5>something seen under the water, those types of things. There

812
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:19.199
<v Speaker 5>was one very dramatic case which hasn't really been publicized

813
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.440
<v Speaker 5>very much, involving the brother of the guy who had

814
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.800
<v Speaker 5>the dramatic close up sighting in nineteen eighty nine, a

815
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:28.079
<v Speaker 5>guy called Donald Simpson who claims to have seen what's

816
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:30.599
<v Speaker 5>essentially sort of a land sighting, a monster coming up

817
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.119
<v Speaker 5>into the lock from the River Mara, which he saw

818
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:38.239
<v Speaker 5>while he was driving along the road, only about twenty

819
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:40.800
<v Speaker 5>or thirty feet away from it. So again, I mean,

820
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:43.280
<v Speaker 5>that's one of those things where if you're cooked as

821
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.480
<v Speaker 5>older to get very excited by the idea that something

822
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:48.199
<v Speaker 5>can be coming in and out of the lock via

823
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:50.639
<v Speaker 5>the river, because that would explain lots of stuff about

824
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:53.719
<v Speaker 5>how things aren't being seen more often.

825
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:57.639
<v Speaker 3>For example, we talked about kelpies briefly.

826
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Are there any other sort of water based folklore that

827
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.840
<v Speaker 2>you're familiar with that would be relevant to these sort

828
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:06.880
<v Speaker 2>of sightings.

829
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:12.800
<v Speaker 5>Well, I mean, we haven't really gone into this the

830
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:16.480
<v Speaker 5>mermaid thing, but I mean the and mermaid.

831
00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:17.000
<v Speaker 4>Is the wrong word for it.

832
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.639
<v Speaker 5>Really, it is it is a monster with a woman's

833
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:23.719
<v Speaker 5>sort of torso attached to it, and you know, and

834
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.599
<v Speaker 5>that's the mermaid part, so you know, sort of the

835
00:41:26.599 --> 00:41:28.679
<v Speaker 5>white breast, long hair and all that sort of thing.

836
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:31.800
<v Speaker 5>But the idea was at the time, and this is

837
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:34.559
<v Speaker 5>the way the photo puts it, is that this is

838
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:39.280
<v Speaker 5>the three elements of the of the Morag are supposed

839
00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:41.639
<v Speaker 5>to be the three parts of a funeral service, where

840
00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:44.719
<v Speaker 5>you have, you know, sort of one part represents the coffin,

841
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.559
<v Speaker 5>one part represents the gray one part represents the sort

842
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.039
<v Speaker 5>of burial ceremony. And so there's quite a confusion of

843
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:54.599
<v Speaker 5>different sorts of bits of photore being mixed into this.

844
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.280
<v Speaker 5>But Lockomore is full of of interesting legends. Apart from that,

845
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.440
<v Speaker 5>there's sort of electricorn like legends about very gold and

846
00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:05.599
<v Speaker 5>another one which I've looked into some depths I've found

847
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:07.159
<v Speaker 5>a particularly fascinating story is the.

848
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:08.440
<v Speaker 4>Gray Dog of Mebel.

849
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.760
<v Speaker 5>Mebel as a little farm about halfway down the lock,

850
00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:14.719
<v Speaker 5>but two miles down a river, so it's not within

851
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.199
<v Speaker 5>sight of the lock. And one of the guys who

852
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:19.000
<v Speaker 5>used to live there back in the time with the

853
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:21.039
<v Speaker 5>Napoleonic Wars, so about two hundred years ago, and that

854
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:25.039
<v Speaker 5>who was supposed to have had a faithful deer hound,

855
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.719
<v Speaker 5>went off to the walls. The deer haund gave birth

856
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.159
<v Speaker 5>to a litter of puppies after he'd gone, and because

857
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:32.880
<v Speaker 5>he wasn't a to look after it, they went ferell

858
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:35.840
<v Speaker 5>and set up a home on an island, a little

859
00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:38.159
<v Speaker 5>lock and up in the hills above Lockmore. And when

860
00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:41.400
<v Speaker 5>he came back from fighting Boney and went to fetch

861
00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:44.679
<v Speaker 5>his faithful deer hound, these puppies had grown up by

862
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:46.760
<v Speaker 5>then to be sort of large for oceans dogs, and

863
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:49.639
<v Speaker 5>they didn't recognize and tore him to bits, and he

864
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:53.280
<v Speaker 5>was buried in the local graveyard, and the bitch who

865
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:55.760
<v Speaker 5>he had had as his dog, went and laid on

866
00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:57.800
<v Speaker 5>the grave and was inconsolable. In this sort of way

867
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.719
<v Speaker 5>the dog was supposed to be and then sort of

868
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.760
<v Speaker 5>come back later on as a sort of spiritual.

869
00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:03.920
<v Speaker 4>Again.

870
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:06.559
<v Speaker 5>That's sort of harbing of death for people in his family.

871
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.239
<v Speaker 5>And there are a lot of legends in Lockmore about

872
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:11.639
<v Speaker 5>people who've seen the gray dog and Mebele just sort

873
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:13.360
<v Speaker 5>of trotting along. It's normally said to be about the

874
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:15.920
<v Speaker 5>size of a Shetland pony, and it sort of trots

875
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.559
<v Speaker 5>along alongside you while you're walking along Scottish mountain tracks

876
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:22.119
<v Speaker 5>all by yourself in the middle of the night, and

877
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:23.760
<v Speaker 5>it's a pretty terrifying thing to encounter.

878
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Apparently, is there a very big community of people there

879
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:28.760
<v Speaker 1>or is it pretty small?

880
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:29.599
<v Speaker 4>No? Tiny?

881
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:32.599
<v Speaker 5>I mean so more village at one end of the

882
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:34.800
<v Speaker 5>lock as sort of twenty or thirty people. There are

883
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.679
<v Speaker 5>literally half a dozen people now who overlook the lock

884
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:40.199
<v Speaker 5>and live in a couple of very small communities and

885
00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:43.719
<v Speaker 5>that's it, apart from sort of people who are just

886
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:45.960
<v Speaker 5>visiting for the day and going out fishing. So it's

887
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:50.960
<v Speaker 5>literally twenty to fifty people, which is very very different

888
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:51.920
<v Speaker 5>to Lockerness obviously.

889
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.199
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that these stories have been attracting more

890
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:55.800
<v Speaker 1>people to the.

891
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:58.760
<v Speaker 5>Area, Well, not many people. I mean, you'd have to

892
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.880
<v Speaker 5>be fairly dedicated. Crypto has all just fought into encounter

893
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:04.960
<v Speaker 5>the lockmow a monster and one of the things that

894
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.880
<v Speaker 5>very commonly comes up when you do get a slighting word,

895
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.039
<v Speaker 5>you're saying, I had no idea that they were supposed

896
00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:13.559
<v Speaker 5>to be a monster in this lake, if you want

897
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:16.039
<v Speaker 5>to take that seriously. Again, that's quite an interesting thing

898
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:19.159
<v Speaker 5>because the problem with lockw with lockness obviously is that

899
00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:21.280
<v Speaker 5>everyone knows as a monster in the lake and it's

900
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:23.119
<v Speaker 5>half on the lookout for it, and it's libel trinter

901
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:23.960
<v Speaker 5>butt almost.

902
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:25.639
<v Speaker 4>Anything they see in the water as.

903
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.000
<v Speaker 5>A monster as well as a result, so it kind

904
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.440
<v Speaker 5>of is a pure source of stories, if you like,

905
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:33.199
<v Speaker 5>as a result of that, if.

906
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:36.559
<v Speaker 2>You don't mind me reverting to the folklore question stuff again,

907
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:41.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm the idea of harbingers, of harbingers of as we

908
00:44:41.239 --> 00:44:44.880
<v Speaker 2>say around here, of death, that that sort of folklore

909
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:49.559
<v Speaker 2>comes up again and again I'm thinking of the spectral

910
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:56.840
<v Speaker 2>hounds as being one, and then the idea of what's

911
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.039
<v Speaker 2>the there's a couple of different.

912
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:01.840
<v Speaker 3>Female ghosts that.

913
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:04.079
<v Speaker 2>The band she would be one where you know, there's

914
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:07.880
<v Speaker 2>sometimes round yeah, and they're associated with families oftentimes in

915
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.400
<v Speaker 2>the folklore. There may be that kind of folklore in

916
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:12.360
<v Speaker 2>other parts of the world, but it seems like the

917
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:17.679
<v Speaker 2>northern UK has a bigger amount of it, at least

918
00:45:17.719 --> 00:45:19.320
<v Speaker 2>that's where I've run into it more.

919
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:20.400
<v Speaker 4>Have you?

920
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:23.280
<v Speaker 3>Do you see more of that kind of story in

921
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:23.639
<v Speaker 3>your life?

922
00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:26.000
<v Speaker 5>You're right, and I think that, you know, I mean,

923
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:27.519
<v Speaker 5>what you have to bear in mind is, you know,

924
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:29.079
<v Speaker 5>we all talk about highlands of Scotland. Here we're talking

925
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:33.840
<v Speaker 5>about a clan based system where extended families exist in

926
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.800
<v Speaker 5>a much more real and concrete way than is typical

927
00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:39.400
<v Speaker 5>in almost anywhere else, certainly in the UK and you

928
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:41.400
<v Speaker 5>know probably most of the rest of the world and

929
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:43.920
<v Speaker 5>particularly up to the nineteenth century.

930
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:45.679
<v Speaker 4>You know, you are a member of your clan.

931
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.400
<v Speaker 5>You have a very large extended family which is focused

932
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:52.440
<v Speaker 5>usually in a twenty or thirty or forty mile radius,

933
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.000
<v Speaker 5>with sort of sub families, but you will have the

934
00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:58.360
<v Speaker 5>same surname, and so it's much much easier and more

935
00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:00.679
<v Speaker 5>likely that these sort of stories will only grow up

936
00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:03.880
<v Speaker 5>but also be circulated as a result of that.

937
00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:07.840
<v Speaker 1>What can the monster of Lake Mora tell us about

938
00:46:08.199 --> 00:46:10.519
<v Speaker 1>the nature of lake monsters in general? Is there anything

939
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:12.920
<v Speaker 1>that can tell us well, a couple of things.

940
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.840
<v Speaker 5>I mean, firstly, not all lake monster stories are a

941
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.599
<v Speaker 5>product of the publicity surrounding lockers, and that is a

942
00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:23.719
<v Speaker 5>fairly typical skeptical position. So I think that it's important

943
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.800
<v Speaker 5>that we recognize that there are these two or three

944
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:29.599
<v Speaker 5>lakes where, however different the reports are, there are reports

945
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:32.559
<v Speaker 5>of things in lakes before nineteen thirty three, and that's

946
00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:35.079
<v Speaker 5>really significant. I think that it gives us something to

947
00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:38.280
<v Speaker 5>talk about, which is beyond everything is found on a

948
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:42.360
<v Speaker 5>hope that publicity stunt a single dramatic story that gets exaggerated.

949
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:44.960
<v Speaker 5>I think that you need to look a lot more

950
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:48.840
<v Speaker 5>carefully at local beliefs, local folklore, the way in which

951
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:53.840
<v Speaker 5>you know people look on these large, slightly scary, slightly

952
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:58.800
<v Speaker 5>isolated bodies of water. So that's the first thing. The

953
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:02.079
<v Speaker 5>second thing is is to say that you are looking

954
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:04.880
<v Speaker 5>here as I say, I mean a small number of

955
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:07.159
<v Speaker 5>interestingly dramatic stories.

956
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:08.079
<v Speaker 4>I've told a couple. I mean.

957
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:11.639
<v Speaker 5>I'll give you a third example. A guy called Lord

958
00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:14.960
<v Speaker 5>Glenn Davon, who's another one of these sort of sporting

959
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.159
<v Speaker 5>gentlemen visiting Lockmore again before the locknows. Montster comes on.

960
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:21.880
<v Speaker 5>She's in nineteen thirty one, out trolling on the lock,

961
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.800
<v Speaker 5>and suddenly his line gets taken by something which is heavy,

962
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:26.159
<v Speaker 5>and then thing he's ever felt on the end of

963
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:29.000
<v Speaker 5>his fishing line before and sort of dives down to

964
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:31.079
<v Speaker 5>the depth of the lock seven hundred feet until it

965
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:33.159
<v Speaker 5>pays out the whole of his fishing wheel and he

966
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:35.119
<v Speaker 5>comes back to land, very very shaking.

967
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.000
<v Speaker 4>His Gilly tells him this is not something we should

968
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.239
<v Speaker 4>be talking about essentially.

969
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:41.800
<v Speaker 5>So again, there's a kind of mixture of sort of

970
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:45.199
<v Speaker 5>real animal local folklore going on there. But also again

971
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.000
<v Speaker 5>it's a different sort of story. You don't tend to

972
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.119
<v Speaker 5>get in most lakes. Physical elements to these sorts of stories.

973
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.000
<v Speaker 5>So you've got at least two or three of the

974
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:58.599
<v Speaker 5>lockmower stories involved elements of I pressed against it. I

975
00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:00.119
<v Speaker 5>felt the weight of it on my fishing one, and

976
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:02.199
<v Speaker 5>that is the best of my knowledge.

977
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:02.679
<v Speaker 4>Unique.

978
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.639
<v Speaker 5>So so there's something unusual about the Lockmore tradition as well.

979
00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Not asking you to wildly speculate, but at the same time,

980
00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:13.960
<v Speaker 2>I am curious. So what do you think people might

981
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:15.440
<v Speaker 2>be seeing? I mean, it sounds like they're seeing a

982
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of different things. But for those stories that seem plausible,

983
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:20.880
<v Speaker 2>what do you do you have any idea?

984
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:25.280
<v Speaker 5>I hate these sorts of speculations because I'm soestly ignorant

985
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:26.400
<v Speaker 5>and not qualified to.

986
00:48:26.599 --> 00:48:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, then if you do, I can skip it

987
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:30.280
<v Speaker 2>if you want.

988
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:35.000
<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, I mean, you know, I started off

989
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:35.639
<v Speaker 4>like most of us.

990
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:37.800
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I think we've had this conversation on previous podcast,

991
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:40.440
<v Speaker 5>even you know, as an eleven twelve year old kid,

992
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:42.639
<v Speaker 5>I really badly wanted to believe some of this stuff

993
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:44.880
<v Speaker 5>was true. It be much more exciting, and I've gradually

994
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:49.199
<v Speaker 5>become more and more gnulled and skeptical over the years,

995
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:53.000
<v Speaker 5>and Lockmore has this little beacon quality in my mind

996
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:55.119
<v Speaker 5>where it's one of these very few places where, gosh,

997
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:57.719
<v Speaker 5>there could still be something actually interesting going on there.

998
00:48:57.760 --> 00:48:59.559
<v Speaker 4>So so I think that, you know, for me, the

999
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:02.239
<v Speaker 4>reason I like, I mean, the other thing I haven't

1000
00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:02.960
<v Speaker 4>really mentioned is.

1001
00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:05.400
<v Speaker 5>It's unbelievably beautiful there. I mean, you really ought to

1002
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.760
<v Speaker 5>go over you get the chance. Lockness is actually kind

1003
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:11.920
<v Speaker 5>of quite a grim place. It's dark, and Lockmow has

1004
00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:14.599
<v Speaker 5>a softer feel to it, and you know, the Highlands

1005
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:16.360
<v Speaker 5>has got the obviously you probably know, are very beautiful,

1006
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:17.679
<v Speaker 5>and this is one of the most beautiful bits to it.

1007
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.440
<v Speaker 5>So the whole thing has a sort of romantic feel

1008
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:24.239
<v Speaker 5>of it to me, and I kind of treasured that

1009
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.840
<v Speaker 5>because it, you know, it's this little spark of my

1010
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.320
<v Speaker 5>old childhood self in this sort of niled, old skeptical

1011
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:33.519
<v Speaker 5>help that I'm now dragging around in my fifties, and

1012
00:49:33.639 --> 00:49:35.559
<v Speaker 5>it's sort of it speaks to me for that, So,

1013
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.800
<v Speaker 5>you know, it's a other special place for me from

1014
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.000
<v Speaker 5>that point of view. I first went there when I

1015
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:44.079
<v Speaker 5>was like fourteen years old and still wanted and able

1016
00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:45.960
<v Speaker 5>to believe in all this stuff. And so as I say,

1017
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:49.400
<v Speaker 5>there's a little bit of a young boy and Lochmore

1018
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:50.480
<v Speaker 5>inside me somewhere.

1019
00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Is it there any if you wanted to visit there?

1020
00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:55.079
<v Speaker 1>Is it there anywhere? Any places to stay in that

1021
00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:56.079
<v Speaker 1>area where.

1022
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:57.440
<v Speaker 5>It's not I mean when I say it's isolated, I

1023
00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.960
<v Speaker 5>mean it's twenty or thirty or forty miles from civilization,

1024
00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:01.519
<v Speaker 5>not that far really, especially.

1025
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:04.159
<v Speaker 4>Right some places in the US.

1026
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.519
<v Speaker 5>I mean, there's the local village is about ten miles

1027
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:11.719
<v Speaker 5>up the road at five miles, and obviously you can

1028
00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:13.559
<v Speaker 5>get bed and breakfasts and things like that around there

1029
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:13.880
<v Speaker 5>as well, so.

1030
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:15.159
<v Speaker 4>It's not not impossible.

1031
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:17.719
<v Speaker 5>I mean it's not It's not like a five hundred

1032
00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:20.039
<v Speaker 5>thousand bed place, But then we have five hundred one

1033
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:21.639
<v Speaker 5>thousand people don't normally want to go to a lot

1034
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:23.880
<v Speaker 5>more all at the same time, so it shouldn't.

1035
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:24.480
<v Speaker 1>Now they will.

1036
00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:28.480
<v Speaker 2>We'll have to get our numbers up a little higher

1037
00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:32.199
<v Speaker 2>for that to have an impact, I think. But you know,

1038
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:36.559
<v Speaker 2>it's funny because you mentioned the more you research, the

1039
00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:37.880
<v Speaker 2>more skeptical you become.

1040
00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:40.239
<v Speaker 3>But I mean I I feel the same way.

1041
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:44.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I remember distinctly the feeling of, you know,

1042
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:47.159
<v Speaker 2>believing that Bigfoot was out there, you know, just waiting

1043
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:51.400
<v Speaker 2>to be found. And over the years that's gone from

1044
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:55.679
<v Speaker 2>Bigfoot's probably real, to Bigfoot might be real, to I

1045
00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:59.519
<v Speaker 2>really don't think Bigfoot's real, to I'm provisionally confident saying

1046
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:02.239
<v Speaker 2>bigfoots not real, but in prepared to change that should

1047
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:05.920
<v Speaker 2>a body appear. All that being said, it doesn't stop

1048
00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:08.199
<v Speaker 2>me from looking intently for Bigfoot when I'm driving in

1049
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:08.880
<v Speaker 2>the woods at night.

1050
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:09.760
<v Speaker 3>I mean, know what I mean.

1051
00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:14.239
<v Speaker 5>Exactly, And I guess one reason I don't want to

1052
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:16.760
<v Speaker 5>go something in lockness is, however skeptical I am, I

1053
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:19.280
<v Speaker 5>still don't like something in large, deep boders of water.

1054
00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:23.320
<v Speaker 5>I can't see what's coming up from underneath me. Yeah,

1055
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:27.639
<v Speaker 5>coming from from that point of yes, yeah, Well. The

1056
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:29.559
<v Speaker 5>any other thing I suppose I would want to.

1057
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:34.880
<v Speaker 6>Say in kind of in conclusion, is that it would

1058
00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:38.880
<v Speaker 6>be it would be interesting to do some more work there,

1059
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:40.639
<v Speaker 6>As I said, I mean, the Lockmower survey in the

1060
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:43.280
<v Speaker 6>seventies did come up with quite a lot of evidence

1061
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:43.960
<v Speaker 6>about the.

1062
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.639
<v Speaker 5>Size of the fish population. And you know, to me,

1063
00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:48.559
<v Speaker 5>this was the sort of killer blow at loch Ness

1064
00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:50.920
<v Speaker 5>was well, actually there are two killer blows at Lockness,

1065
00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:52.639
<v Speaker 5>but that was one of them. The idea that, in fact,

1066
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:54.920
<v Speaker 5>the fish stock in Lockness is probably only somewhere in

1067
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:58.039
<v Speaker 5>the region of sixteen to twenty five tons of fish,

1068
00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:01.039
<v Speaker 5>which sounds like a lot. But then when you then

1069
00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:02.800
<v Speaker 5>multiply that and you start thinking in terms of what

1070
00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:06.480
<v Speaker 5>would be a breeding population of monsters, look like you

1071
00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:09.480
<v Speaker 5>start worrying about there's just not enough food to support

1072
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:12.599
<v Speaker 5>actual animals. That doesn't seem to be true of Lockmow.

1073
00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:14.719
<v Speaker 5>And I'd like to know a lot more about that,

1074
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:16.000
<v Speaker 5>and I would like to do more.

1075
00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:18.039
<v Speaker 3>Was gonna say, it's that the it's the miracle of

1076
00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:19.039
<v Speaker 3>the lock and the fishes.

1077
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:20.840
<v Speaker 4>I'd like to do more.

1078
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:24.039
<v Speaker 5>Work on the whole surveying of the you know, the

1079
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:26.159
<v Speaker 5>clear water areas of the lake as well. I don't

1080
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:27.519
<v Speaker 5>think I can go quite as far as agent and

1081
00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:31.800
<v Speaker 5>actually sit in little people, which I've made.

1082
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:34.079
<v Speaker 4>It's extreme bottom of my garden. That was a little

1083
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:34.920
<v Speaker 4>bit too extreme for me.

1084
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:37.039
<v Speaker 5>So so I mean I think that I suppose the

1085
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.760
<v Speaker 5>thing about lockmow in conclusion is, Hey, there is actually

1086
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:43.079
<v Speaker 5>somewhere there there's more work to be done. And you

1087
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.280
<v Speaker 5>know that that, again is kind of unusual for me

1088
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:48.239
<v Speaker 5>when when I do research, I tend this is one

1089
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:50.760
<v Speaker 5>of the very few cases where I've ended up thinking, well,

1090
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:52.760
<v Speaker 5>there's more work to be done, as opposed to it, Okay,

1091
00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:56.039
<v Speaker 5>I've solved that to at least my satisfaction, there is.

1092
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.039
<v Speaker 4>Still work to be done there.

1093
00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:00.159
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I feel that I have all the answers I

1094
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:05.159
<v Speaker 5>want about Lockmore and that's quite unusual, and again something

1095
00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:08.679
<v Speaker 5>to be kind of cherished, because you know, it's nice

1096
00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:10.800
<v Speaker 5>to have at least a little and I don't know

1097
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:12.559
<v Speaker 5>if I would even call it an element of mystery,

1098
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:16.159
<v Speaker 5>but certainly an element of it inquisitiveness about something that

1099
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:18.159
<v Speaker 5>I've been interested in now for sort of forty odd

1100
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:20.599
<v Speaker 5>years and still has that little itch.

1101
00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:21.920
<v Speaker 4>Going at the back of my mind. And you know,

1102
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:22.880
<v Speaker 4>I quite value that.

1103
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Really, what do you think you might find?

1104
00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:26.880
<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

1105
00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:29.559
<v Speaker 5>I mean I think that you know you've asked me

1106
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:31.000
<v Speaker 5>to speculate wildly, so I guess I might as well

1107
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:31.800
<v Speaker 5>finish my spectrum.

1108
00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:33.519
<v Speaker 4>You might find a.

1109
00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:36.079
<v Speaker 5>Large a large fish of some sort. I mean, I

1110
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:40.079
<v Speaker 5>don't think that's impossible. You know, it could be you know,

1111
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:42.000
<v Speaker 5>some people could be seeing larger ors. There could be

1112
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:44.239
<v Speaker 5>a I don't know, I mean you were saying lock mess.

1113
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:48.000
<v Speaker 5>Maybe a sturgeon that's agent shines view anyway, And once

1114
00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:50.360
<v Speaker 5>you take out the long head and neck bits of

1115
00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:54.039
<v Speaker 5>late monster reports, sturgeon are actually surprisingly good candidate for

1116
00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:55.679
<v Speaker 5>a lot of the rest of the stuff. So so

1117
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:58.840
<v Speaker 5>maybe that so, I mean, you know that that would

1118
00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:00.760
<v Speaker 5>be undramatic but interesting to.

1119
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Me definitely for wildly speculating, I would I would love

1120
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:07.119
<v Speaker 2>it if they find a sort of like a giant

1121
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:11.000
<v Speaker 2>anglerfish that's evolved so that the lure is shaped like

1122
00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:13.320
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful woman, but when you get close it gobbles

1123
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:13.639
<v Speaker 2>you up.

1124
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:19.960
<v Speaker 4>Yah. A wild speculation would be, hey, maybe there's a mermaid.

1125
00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:22.320
<v Speaker 3>Well there is that That would be wild.

1126
00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:24.960
<v Speaker 1>Find evidence.

1127
00:54:26.559 --> 00:54:30.599
<v Speaker 2>So I think I've mentioned several times on the show

1128
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:35.000
<v Speaker 2>that your book Borderlands is just just a tremendously well

1129
00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:38.360
<v Speaker 2>researched collection of fortyana.

1130
00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:38.559
<v Speaker 3>Uh and big book.

1131
00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:41.480
<v Speaker 2>It is a big book and everybody should own it.

1132
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:43.639
<v Speaker 2>Is there any and we'll have a link to that

1133
00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:47.159
<v Speaker 2>and to your articles of Smithsonian and to your website

1134
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:49.199
<v Speaker 2>and her show notes. Is there anything else you'd like

1135
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:50.320
<v Speaker 2>to talk about or promote?

1136
00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:55.840
<v Speaker 5>Golly not not from this point of view. I mean,

1137
00:54:56.199 --> 00:54:58.119
<v Speaker 5>I've been so called up in the writing of the

1138
00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:00.880
<v Speaker 5>history stuff I do that I haven't been writing a

1139
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.000
<v Speaker 5>huge amount of forty on I guess I should mention,

1140
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:05.119
<v Speaker 5>if this is coming out soon, that I actually have

1141
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:07.280
<v Speaker 5>an article in the issue of fourteen Times about something

1142
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:09.920
<v Speaker 5>I haven't written about before, which is the Antrum of

1143
00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:12.559
<v Speaker 5>Initiation at Bayer on the Bay of Naples, which is

1144
00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:17.079
<v Speaker 5>supposedly a set of a set of very mysterious tunnels

1145
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:23.159
<v Speaker 5>dug into the remains of a volcano, which might be

1146
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:26.320
<v Speaker 5>something to do with a peculiar sort of fifth century

1147
00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:30.480
<v Speaker 5>BC con game where people tried to persuade rich passing

1148
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.800
<v Speaker 5>merchants they were able to take them down to the underworld,

1149
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:35.400
<v Speaker 5>over the river sticks and into a sort of k

1150
00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:37.880
<v Speaker 5>where they would get their fortunes read by a civil

1151
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.880
<v Speaker 5>and totally expecting very large something I need to the privilege.

1152
00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:44.239
<v Speaker 4>That's my latest fourteen Times writing.

1153
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Quite a few of our listeners have asked if you've

1154
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:50.559
<v Speaker 2>made any progress on your spring Hill Jack work. Is

1155
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:52.760
<v Speaker 2>there a chance that you've moved forward with making that

1156
00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:54.159
<v Speaker 2>into an actual published book.

1157
00:55:54.199 --> 00:55:57.719
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I hope you weren't going to ask that, you

1158
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:03.360
<v Speaker 5>know what, I I've been working on these swiss Onian

1159
00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:06.440
<v Speaker 5>history articles so long that I've now basically I'm like

1160
00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:07.960
<v Speaker 5>three articles short.

1161
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:10.079
<v Speaker 4>Of having a book for the books worth of them.

1162
00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:13.280
<v Speaker 5>I promised myself i'd finish that and then i'd do

1163
00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:15.679
<v Speaker 5>Swing Hill Jack. That was two years ago, and I

1164
00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:18.480
<v Speaker 5>keep getting distracted by new ideas for stuff, so I

1165
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:21.880
<v Speaker 5>had I've still got two out of the three stories

1166
00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:25.000
<v Speaker 5>I want for my book I haven't actually written yet.

1167
00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:27.559
<v Speaker 5>So the idea is that at some point between now

1168
00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:29.639
<v Speaker 5>and Christmas, aally finish that up, and that next year

1169
00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:31.360
<v Speaker 5>I should try and get back to Spring hil Jack.

1170
00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:33.800
<v Speaker 5>There's about six months of work to do this, so

1171
00:56:33.880 --> 00:56:36.280
<v Speaker 5>it's kind of hard for me to imagine how I'm

1172
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:38.760
<v Speaker 5>going to find enough time to do six months of

1173
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:41.599
<v Speaker 5>work over any sort of relatively short period of time.

1174
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.079
<v Speaker 4>And I say, basically, I need.

1175
00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:44.880
<v Speaker 5>To spend another few weeks on Spring hill Jack, maybe

1176
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:47.559
<v Speaker 5>a couple of months at least. I'm hoping to do

1177
00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:48.559
<v Speaker 5>more of it next year.

1178
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:49.239
<v Speaker 4>Short.

1179
00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:52.760
<v Speaker 5>No, No, it's terribly plenty excuse which probably would bore

1180
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:53.840
<v Speaker 5>the plants of anybody.

1181
00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:57.079
<v Speaker 2>No, but I think the I think the end product

1182
00:56:57.119 --> 00:56:58.440
<v Speaker 2>should you be able to get it out.

1183
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.800
<v Speaker 3>I think people are really interested.

1184
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:04.320
<v Speaker 5>Oh yeah, I I need to get downe and I'm

1185
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:06.400
<v Speaker 5>nagat to the point of thinking, Lady, how I better

1186
00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:08.239
<v Speaker 5>make sure I write something before I drop the dead act.

1187
00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:10.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, you don't be like George R. Martin, So

1188
00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:11.840
<v Speaker 3>if that's your standard here.

1189
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:15.599
<v Speaker 4>So I still try my best to make it happen.

1190
00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:17.960
<v Speaker 5>I've got some fantastic good stuff to talk about there

1191
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:20.239
<v Speaker 5>as well, so I really really don't want to lose it,

1192
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:22.559
<v Speaker 5>you know. I mean, the amount of new stuff there

1193
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:24.559
<v Speaker 5>is far, far more than anything else I've done, so

1194
00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:28.880
<v Speaker 5>I kind of have an obligation to the greater community

1195
00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:29.760
<v Speaker 5>to do something about it.

1196
00:57:29.800 --> 00:57:33.440
<v Speaker 1>I think great. Right, So, Mike, we've had you on

1197
00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:35.719
<v Speaker 1>the show before and you've spoken about your favorite monster,

1198
00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:38.639
<v Speaker 1>so we thought we'd ask you a brilliant question on

1199
00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:42.920
<v Speaker 1>that theme instead. Do you have a scary movie that

1200
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:44.480
<v Speaker 1>you can recommend?

1201
00:57:44.599 --> 00:57:47.840
<v Speaker 5>You know something. I'm really bad with scary movies. I

1202
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:49.719
<v Speaker 5>tend not to watch them because I find them a

1203
00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:53.000
<v Speaker 5>little bit cynical and manipulative, and I'm sort of person

1204
00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:55.519
<v Speaker 5>who doesn't like going to amusement parts because I don't

1205
00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:57.320
<v Speaker 5>like going on things that are designed make me feel

1206
00:57:57.320 --> 00:57:59.519
<v Speaker 5>like I'm about to die. And it's very similar with

1207
00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:04.079
<v Speaker 5>the horror mo So actually I'm terrible at recommending scary movies,

1208
00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:06.400
<v Speaker 5>but I suppose the maybe one that's worth mentioning that

1209
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:09.280
<v Speaker 5>some people it's probably not very scary, but it ties

1210
00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:11.440
<v Speaker 5>in with another piece of research I've done.

1211
00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:13.960
<v Speaker 4>Which is a film called The Maze.

1212
00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:16.800
<v Speaker 5>Which goes back to the nineteen fifties and is a

1213
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:19.400
<v Speaker 5>version of the Monster of Glam's story, which I actould

1214
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:21.440
<v Speaker 5>come and talk to you about some time, the sort

1215
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.280
<v Speaker 5>of you know, the deformed air kept locked up in

1216
00:58:24.280 --> 00:58:28.519
<v Speaker 5>a secret room in a Scottish castle for Yeah, that.

1217
00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:29.639
<v Speaker 1>Would be a good episode.

1218
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:32.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm familiar with the legend, so that would yeah. Yeah,

1219
00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:34.480
<v Speaker 2>you think you could talk about it for half an hour?

1220
00:58:35.119 --> 00:58:36.519
<v Speaker 5>Oh, I could talk about it for longer than that.

1221
00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:41.599
<v Speaker 5>I've got a lot of research on it. Yeah, I

1222
00:58:41.639 --> 00:58:43.639
<v Speaker 5>mean there's some good speaky stuff there, so that would

1223
00:58:43.639 --> 00:58:44.840
<v Speaker 5>make a good episode for you.

1224
00:58:44.880 --> 00:58:45.440
<v Speaker 4>I suspect it.

1225
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it. Okay, we'll go a

1226
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:49.519
<v Speaker 3>linked to that.

1227
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.119
<v Speaker 2>The show notes as well as always, it's been great

1228
00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:52.760
<v Speaker 2>talking with you.

1229
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:55.119
<v Speaker 4>I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

1230
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:57.440
<v Speaker 5>I hope it was useful for you. I didn't feel

1231
00:58:57.519 --> 00:58:59.400
<v Speaker 5>like it was as focus as I wanted it to be.

1232
00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:02.840
<v Speaker 3>But don't know, that was really interesting. Actually, I mean I.

1233
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Think, and I mean the listeners can correct me if

1234
00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:08.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm wrong, but my feeling is that one of the

1235
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.800
<v Speaker 2>reasons people like the show is because we're long form.

1236
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:16.079
<v Speaker 2>We're not a super tight fifteen minute you know, pikat.

1237
00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:21.719
<v Speaker 2>We're people with the who really thought deeply about these questions,

1238
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, talking sensibly about monsters, and then that's what's

1239
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:26.119
<v Speaker 2>wrong with that.

1240
00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:28.639
<v Speaker 1>Right, going into a lot of details.

1241
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:30.159
<v Speaker 2>A lot of history, a lot of you know, side stuff.

1242
00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:32.639
<v Speaker 2>People like to learn new things, and I know every

1243
00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:34.360
<v Speaker 2>time we talk to you, we're going to learn something new.

1244
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:37.800
<v Speaker 4>So it's great, definitely pleasure. It's always last to talk.

1245
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:40.119
<v Speaker 4>So yeah, we'll do it again sometimes. Monster.

1246
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:45.320
<v Speaker 1>You've been listening to Monster Talk. I'm Karen Stolsner and.

1247
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:46.079
<v Speaker 3>I'm Blake Smith.

1248
00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:48.679
<v Speaker 2>You just heard an interview with doctor Mike dash about

1249
00:59:48.679 --> 00:59:50.920
<v Speaker 2>the alleged beasts living in luche More.

1250
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:52.400
<v Speaker 3>We hope you enjoyed it.

1251
00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:55.880
<v Speaker 2>A link to Mike's book Borderlands and to his articles

1252
00:59:55.880 --> 00:59:58.119
<v Speaker 2>at Smithsonian or in the show notes at monster.

1253
00:59:57.840 --> 00:59:58.599
<v Speaker 3>Talk dot org.

1254
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:02.079
<v Speaker 2>Mike's written several lot books filled with meticulous research, not

1255
01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:04.199
<v Speaker 2>all of them forti in, but well worth checking out.

1256
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk is an official podcast of Skeptic Magazine. The

1257
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:11.239
<v Speaker 2>opinions expressed here are those of myself and my guests

1258
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:14.320
<v Speaker 2>and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Skeptic Magazine

1259
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:17.880
<v Speaker 2>or the Skeptic Society. But if you want my opinion,

1260
01:00:18.039 --> 01:00:19.880
<v Speaker 2>it's a great time of year to donate to the

1261
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:23.360
<v Speaker 2>nonprofit Skeptic Society before the year runs out. You can

1262
01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:25.679
<v Speaker 2>find details on how to make a tax sedictable donation

1263
01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:28.159
<v Speaker 2>at skeptic dot com. They did not ask me to

1264
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:29.679
<v Speaker 2>say that. I just think it's a good time of

1265
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:33.480
<v Speaker 2>year to donate to Skeptic or the Center for Skeptical Inquiry.

1266
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<v Speaker 2>Both organizations support the promotion of critical thinking, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that we can always do with more of We

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<v Speaker 2>hope you've enjoyed this episode of Monster Talk. Each episode

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<v Speaker 2>we strive to bring you the best in monster related

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<v Speaker 2>content with a focus on bringing scientific skepticism into the conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>If you enjoy Monster Talk, we now have a variety

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<v Speaker 2>of ways to support the show, all with convenient links

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<v Speaker 2>at monster talk dot org, forwarde Slash Support, monster talk

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<v Speaker 2>dot org, Forge Slash Support. There we have links to

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<v Speaker 2>our Patreon pages as well as a donation button. A

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<v Speaker 2>great way to support the show is to buy us

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<v Speaker 2>books from our Amazon Monster Talk wish list, which directly

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<v Speaker 2>helps us with our research. We love usbooks very much,

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<v Speaker 2>so don't feel compelled to buy new ones, and we

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<v Speaker 2>love Kindle, and we can share our digital library with

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<v Speaker 2>each other. Finally, without spending any money at all, you

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<v Speaker 2>can support us by leaving a positive review at iTunes

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<v Speaker 2>or wherever you get your podcasts. Positive reviews help keep

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<v Speaker 2>us visible in iTunes, which is a great way to

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<v Speaker 2>help us find new listeners. And please share our show

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<v Speaker 2>on your favorite social media platforms. Thanks again to all

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<v Speaker 2>you generous folk who have signed up for the Patreon

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<v Speaker 2>page and for the amazing generosity of the book purchases

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<v Speaker 2>that you've made from the monster talk support page. We've

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<v Speaker 2>got some great ones now to read through and to

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<v Speaker 2>turn into episodes, and I really really appreciate it. Monster

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<v Speaker 2>Talk theme music is by Peach Stealing Monkeys.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you again for listening.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you know that You can now subscribe to Skeptic

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<v Speaker 2>Magazine digitally. Just grab our free Skeptic Magazine app, currently

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<v Speaker 2>compatible with iOS, Android, PC, mac, Kindlefire, Kindlefire HD, and

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<v Speaker 2>BlackBerry Playbook.

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<v Speaker 5>Head over to skeptic dot com slash Magazine slash app

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<v Speaker 5>to find out more and download more of your favorite

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