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Speaker 1: What is uh? Fellasico's I Am Dana Valley coming at

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you with another twenty twenty four twenty twenty five NBA

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season look ahead. As you're listening to this, we have

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rounded the halfway point of the lookhead series. So if

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you have not already, what are you doing? Subscribe YouTube, Spotify,

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Apple the Whole nine, raise and reviews on Apple, Help

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us a ton flood the comment section on YouTube. Also

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like help the Augo, help the Algo push us a

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little bit more, especially on our shorts which have just died.

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They've completely just been smoked. I may have to pivot

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away from them if they don't continue to help us grow.

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So do all that stuff and if you are consistently

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doing that. One, I love you, and so does Grant.

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And two please tell people about us, share the episodes

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of the content. Let everyone know that we have lots

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of fun around here and that we at least tried

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to work really hard at covering the entire NBA. We're

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onto the Indiana Pacers, though, which means I have the

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distinct pleasure of being joined by the goat Caitlin Cooper.

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Follow her on the Twitter machine at C two Underscore

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Cooper just as importantly, if not more importantly, subscribed to basketball.

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She wrote, just incredible content that she puts out. It's

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absolutely ridiculous how good she is. I talk about her

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all the time on this podcast, even when she's not here.

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She is one of my favorite content creators of all time.

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She is one of the nicest people you ever interact

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with as well. Very thankful that she gives us her

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time when I know she's super in demand because she

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is mainstream Kaitlyn Cooper, the world famous Caitlyn Cooper. So

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go subscribe to basketball. She wrote the link to that

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is in the podcast and YouTube description. As you are

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listening slash watching to this. That's enough out of me, though.

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I have lots of questions about the Indiana Pacers, and

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Caitlin's gonna have all the right answers to them because

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she always has the right answers to them. So let's

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get to talking about the twenty twenty four twenty twenty

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five Indiana Pacers with the one, the only, the legendary,

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the Goat, Caitlyn Cooper. Caitlin, we welcome back. Thank you

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for coming back for what's like your upteenth appearance on

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this podcast. Always grateful that you agree to return. It's

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been too long, as I was telling you off air,

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so we have not spoken in podcasts form since this

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time last year, which means the most important question of

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all that I'm going to ask, how the heck are

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you doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I'm always excited to get the return

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invites here. I told you I joked around ahead of

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time and in our message threat and said, I think

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this is my longest term podcast relationship, and I'm pretty

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sure it is.

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Speaker 1: I love it, And I was telling you before we started.

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You were the first person outside of my little silo

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of oh I met them through Bleacher Report years ago

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that came on this podcast, which has been running since

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I think twenty fifteen, and I don't know when the

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year was that you came on, but I specifically remember

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because I could probably remember the DM I sent you

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because I get nerve wracked one reaching out to people

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I know, but definitely people I've never interacted with before.

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You were kind enough to say yes. You've been kind

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enough to say yes every single time since then. So,

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like I said, we are immeasurably grateful around these parts

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that you canntinued to come.

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Speaker 2: Back I'm immeasurably grateful that the people keep letting me

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come back.

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Speaker 1: Please. People are foolish if they weren't going to have

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you on your podcast or even trying to talk about

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the Pacers at a high level of Kaitlin Cooper is

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not involved speaking of which, though, It's funny because this

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time last year, we were having a conversation about what

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direction the Pacers were going to choose, where they going

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to play the longer game or kind of commit to

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more of a semblance of urgency. They wind up making

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the Passco Siakam trade in the middle of January. What

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did you sort of make about that decision to lean

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towards that route? Or is that even what they're doing

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when you look at what they did this offseason where

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they keep him, they focus on talent retention with Obi Topping,

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and they extend TJ McConnell Andrew Mhard. What do we

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just make of the Pacers overall direction right now? It's

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interesting when reflecting back on that, because I vividly remember

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that during preseason I wrote a piece called Jaris Walker

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is going to be a micro cosm of the Pacers

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next season, and I felt like looking at their road

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to and what we had seen from him during preseason

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that if he got to play, it was going to

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be because they were leaning more toward development, and if

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he wasn't playing, it's going to be because they exceeded expectations,

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and pretty rapidly they did. And then by the time

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the playoffs come around, we don't need to relitigate what

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the playoffs were for the Pacers. But during the Bucks series,

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I wrote another piece that was like they kind of

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did the impossible right where they achieved the intersection of

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winning in development where they were they had a series

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lead at the time when I wrote the piece, and

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I pointed out that, you know, Ben Shepherd, they had

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cut out and gone down to an eight man rotation

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in that series, and Ben Shepard was one of the

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eight players as a rookie, which you know, a lot

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of the talking points around Rick Carlile at times can

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be that he can be harder on rookies and getting

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into rotation, but that hasn't been the case for Ben Sheppard.

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After Buddy he illustraded, and it wasn't the case for

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Nemhart as a rookie. And then the piece more so

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centered around Andrew Nemharden that you could see that for

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a player who dealt with the kidney stone during preseason

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and then had the back issue and also had the

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hyper extended, that it was all coming together at the

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right time for him, and that the Pacers really had

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found two guys that like, hey, these are really solid

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people to have in an eight man playoff rotation as

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first and second year players. So in a sense, they

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kind of ended up doing what I was skeptical that

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they would be able to do. That being said, when

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you mentioned the things that they did this offseason and

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that they're virtually, you know, pretty much bringing everybody back,

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sign multiple players to extensions, it's going to be very

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hard given that they need to kind of bank on

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internal development in a sense to maintain or level up

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on what they just did, when it's going to be

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really hard for them to be able to play Ben Shepard,

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Andrew nemhar, Benedict Madam, and Jarris Walker. With the rotation

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that they have, they can't really play all four of

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those players, and yet two of them are very kind

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of integral to answering some of the holes that they

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have on the roster.

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Speaker 2: If they're ready to play and will they be so

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they kind of still find themselves in the same place

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despite the fact that they did get better and they

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did make the run in the playoffs.

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Speaker 1: Before we kind of get into what might transpire this

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season or just looking ahead. Was there any aspect of

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their offseason? And I think we all knew once you

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traded for Pascal Siakam he was coming back on the Max.

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It was a question of length four years, okay, whatever?

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Was there anything that surprised you were stood out when

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you look at the money Obi top and got or

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both McConnell Andrew Nemhar getting extensions.

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Speaker 2: I think for the Pacers, and I pointed this out

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at the time, especially of the McConnell signing, is that

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and this is one of my intriguing stats that I

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really like to share, is that they were plus seven

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point thirty nine and over thirteen hundred minutes played when

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any two of Tyreese, TJ. McConnell, Andrew Nemhard were on

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the floor. They found out that they were, you know,

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pretty effective when they had multiple ball handlers out there,

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in part because teams started showing more exaggerated coverages against

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Tyrese and Tyrese's role changed a little bit after they

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moved Buddy healed as well, So it was to their

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benefit that if Tyres is being picked up full court,

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if he's being face guarded a lot, that they have

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somebody else out there that can initiate offense, and then

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he's doing more as a screener as a movement shooter.

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It was something I talked about before last season even

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picked up where I was like watching him at Team

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USA and the Feeble World Cup, in the minutes that

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he played with Jail Brunton, I was like, these are

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going to be valuable because if he can become a

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better role player, it'll make him an even better start.

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And that was something that ended up really coming into

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play over the back half of the season. So I

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can't say I was surprised that they extended them or

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that they extended Obi top in. I think that more

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so with Obi top and my position on it was

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I might have looked to see if there was somebody

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at that price level that might have answered address more

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of their weaknesses, whereas Obie Moore builds out their strengths.

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He was one of the best play finishers in the

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NBA last year. He definitely fits with their play style.

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But I remember at the time I mentioned a player

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kind of like Caleb Morton who maybe you could throw

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out there more against Wings while still getting at least

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some shooting from him and the Pacers. Quite frankly, their

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offense is kind of a self sustaining machine in and

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of itself, where I don't worry about that as much

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in terms of them addressing the other end of the floor.

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But I'm guessing they probably like sniffed around a little

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bit or like maybe some of those opportunities aren't going

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to be there for us. We'll keep our core guys,

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And I think it more so as a reflection of eventually,

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you know, having contracts keeping their flexibility because they're going

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to be set up for a consolidation move at some point. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He I wasn't surprised by the extensions, actually, because I

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think that's especially the response to the second Apron and

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the way teams handled themselves in the way that we've

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kind of been tracking. It feels like that's just the

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new way of things happening. Obi Toppins contract was the

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one that surprised me the most. I always expected him

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to come back, but I looked at that and was like, well,

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who was giving him? We saw no restricted free agency

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offer sheets this year, by the way, to anybody, I

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was like, who was giving him that money? And I

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know a lot of Pacers fans they killed what me

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and Grant said about their off season. They said, well,

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you need these contracts to move and I do agree.

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I just four years at sixty. I just I thought

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the number was in. The years were a little inflated.

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But like you said, he is a really good play

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finisher and it was exciting to see him do so

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well in India after watching him kind of be held

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back in New York because he just had Julius Randall

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constantly in front of him. The Knicks did not want

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to play the way that the Pacers did, obviously.

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Speaker 2: I mean we actually did see some things, like I

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remember Game six when he and TJ were really keys

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there against the Milwaukee Bucks when they advanced. He did

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several things in that game where I'm like, even the

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most optimistic Nick fans I don't think anticipated seeing Obie

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top and like make up one handed pass off his

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left going uphill along the three point line, making a

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push shot as the role man, making a transition three

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blocking a shot with his off hand, like he played

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a lot of minutes at the five in that series,

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which is I'm sure we'll talk about intriguing lineups later,

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but that that's one of my most intriguing lineup combinations

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to watch next season is how the minutes with Obi

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at the five bear out over a larger sample.

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Speaker 1: Six years into these look aheads, it's clear that I

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dictate too much of how these podcasts go. So I've

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been asking everyone, what is the biggest storyline for this team,

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the Pacers in this case, that you will either that

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you'll be tracking either entering the season or throughout the

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entire season.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think to an extent, it's the same

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storyline that's been the storyline at training camp for them

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the last two years. I remembers talked about like that's

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a tail as all as time, Dan. Now, I think

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they talked about two years ago, like we need to

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address defense and togetherness. They talked about last year, you know,

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some of their requisites for people earning playing time because

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they had so much competition at camp, was going to be,

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you know, defense and unselfishness. It's going to be what's

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it going to take for them to improve on the

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defensive end, and what's a realistic expectation. I think that's

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going to be the overarching thing this year, because, like

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we said, I think that they showed enough proof of concept,

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regardless of what the injuries were in the playoffs, to

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think that they can still be a very good regular

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season team. The offensive rating held up in the playoffs.

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They outscore opponents in each round of the playoffs when

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passcalen tyres were on the floor, including against Boston, who

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were not nearly as banged up obviously as the Bucks and.

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Speaker 3: The Knicks were.

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Speaker 2: There's lots of little things that you can point to there,

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but if they're gonna maintain the success that they had

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last year, I do think that they need to have

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a little bit more reliable of a defense, because that's

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what stood out in games. You know, the losses that

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they had to Boston. Obviously, you know, those were somewhat

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the witching hour of things that you can't really completely

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explained that went wrong. But also one team had a

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defensive foundation they could rely on. One team was more

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defensively versatile, and it wasn't the Pacers in those games.

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So that's the main thing that they need to address,

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and I think that's going to be the main storyline

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they were gonna be watching all season.

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Speaker 1: What are sort of the one or two elements that

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would go into this team sustaining a league average or

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better defense? Then yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean I think I had this tagline last year where

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I said, the defense doesn't need to be good, it

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doesn't even need to be mediocre. It merely needs to

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be bad, and it's too often terrible. And that took

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place in a game when they had one of their

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one one fifty one fifty you know, duels with the

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Atlanta Hawks, and I later issued a retraction because they

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did show some progress and they did make some adjustments

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to the scheme as the year went on. And that's

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why I told people. I just recently got asked the

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mail back question by somebody said, you know, what would

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it take to make this defense great? That's too often

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eve an expectation you need to get in the range

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of like bad, ranging to men.

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Speaker 3: Because I will.

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Speaker 2: Say that I think that this coaching staff, like when

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you look at I mean, I'll ask you if you

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looked at this the personnel on the roster, do you

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think that the Pacers have top ten offensive talent just

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based on the personnel.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I might just be colored by what I

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know Tyre's Haliburton is. But I guess in a vacuum,

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you probably wouldn't look at especially heading into last season

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and being like oh nemhard no siakam. So yeah, I

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don't think you look at the roster like, oh, that's

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for sure a top ten offensive team.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you want to think that that's going to be

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the number one offense in the playoffs, I doubt, And

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again like some of that had to do with injuries,

289
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but not completely because let's face it, like Giannis is

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a big deal defensively, but Dame being out kind of

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helped the Bucks defense then make them a better team,

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But defensively they were better when when Dame wasn't playing.

293
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So I think that they over you know, they get

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more out of their personnel offensively, and I've told people

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this many times. I think they're getting about what should

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be expected defensively unless you look at a few specific things.

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So I think last year they ranked thirtieth and close

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outs per one hundred posessions, and in part that's because

299
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they started the year really being somewhat dogmatic with the guard.

300
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Your yards scheme, they were going to do all pick

301
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and rolls two versus two. As the year went on,

302
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they were willing to relax that they weren't trying to,

303
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you know, use body as a primary against you anas

304
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ant Tokumpo. They were building a three player wall. Some

305
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of what you saw the Lakers in the finals of

306
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the nd season tournament where they scored eighty six points

307
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in the paint while the Pacers you know, quote unquote

308
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held them to two of thirteen shooting from three. There

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were changes to that, specifically in the playoffs where it's like, okay,

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now we're seeing Siakam, you know, even helping off of

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the ball side corner. He's flooding clear strong side, off

312
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of Pachua, off of Josh Hart in ways that they

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weren't necessarily as adaptable with earlier in the season. So

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I would expect some changes there, but I don't think

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that the like, no matter what this coaching staff does

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with the scheme, I don't think that's necessarily going to

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significantly move the needle because, to be honest, while it

318
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probably wasn't what I would have done at the beginning

319
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of the season, they tried to pull our opposite scheme

320
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the prior year. In both years they resulted in a

321
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bottom ten defensive outcome, including after they acquired Sakam, they

322
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still ranked around twenty second after that. So I would

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look at, you know, can Tyres come back and be

324
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a little bit more physical? Can he take a bump

325
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and still potentially get over a screen? Because he did

326
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show that a little bit. You know, they don't want

327
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to give up switches with him, so they use a

328
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lot of show coverage and you got a little bit

329
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better at holding the line on that, maybe even you know,

330
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diverting the ball handler a little bit. So can he

331
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show a little bit more physicality and not get overpowered?

332
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Is there ways that you could potentially use Miles as

333
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more of, you know, a weak side rim protector rather

334
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than a wall side anchor just dialing up their overall attentiveness.

335
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That's something that I like to point out with regard

336
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to Benedict Maden, because you can dial up energy and effort.

337
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I'm not always sure you can how to project you know, awareness,

338
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some it might all click for him, I don't. I

339
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don't completely know, but that's something there. And then the

340
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biggest thing they need to address the hole that they

341
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have at the wing like they still have it, like

342
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they acquired Pascal Siakam, And a very telling thing. The

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night before they acquired Pascal Siakam, they played the Utah

344
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Jazz and Andrew nev harb Is guarding Lauri Markinen. They

345
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acquired Pascal, they really toyed around with his role in

346
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the first you know, however, many games that he was in.

347
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By the time you get in the playoffs, it's game

348
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four and when Tyresee is out and Ben Shepherd's a

349
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starter and they can put Ben Shephard at the point

350
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of attack, Pascal has put on Drew Holliday, and they

351
00:15:10,399 --> 00:15:13,919
had Andrew Nelmhard and Aaron Nee Smith back on Tatum

352
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and Brown. It was not Pascal Siakam doing that. So

353
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what type of role they think that they want him

354
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to have? And then just can Matheren or Walker become

355
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that guy? Can veettitc Mathern or Jarris Walker be a

356
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person that you could eventually see ending up being in

357
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a starting lineup and having some impacts given that they

358
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are more wing size wings. And I'm sure we'll get

359
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into each of their games more specifically later, but I

360
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think that the solutions more so are going to have

361
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to come from little incremental steps from various players on

362
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the roster or eventually seeking an outside solution with the

363
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consolidation trade that we kind of allieded to before.

364
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Speaker 1: I have so many follow up questions about the Pascal

365
00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:50,200
Siakam stuff specifically, But one of the things we also

366
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talked about last year when you shift to the other

367
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end of the floor was in these half court offense,

368
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and even before the Siakam trade, they were I think

369
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they were second in half court efficiency that was Perkeley

370
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,440
in the glass before the Seacam trade, and so they

371
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were twenty fourth the year before, again independent of the

372
00:16:06,159 --> 00:16:10,519
Siakame trade. What went into just that stark of a

373
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,559
rankings improvement for them?

374
00:16:13,039 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the defense of the versatility by which

375
00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:17,279
they can score now. And I know you just told

376
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:20,440
me to ignore the Pascal Siaka of it all, but

377
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,360
like it's hard to because there's really it's difficult to

378
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,360
find a pick and roll coverage that will work against them,

379
00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:28,159
because if you play and drop and Tyresee is Tyrese.

380
00:16:29,159 --> 00:16:31,639
As Samson pointed out on my podcast, he's going to

381
00:16:31,679 --> 00:16:33,639
plan his cross. It's going to be the Agraian economy

382
00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:35,840
of buckets if you play drop coverage against Tyres and

383
00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:38,440
that situation, if you go to blitz, then Miles has

384
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,679
become pretty good at knocking down that free throw line

385
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:41,799
area jumper.

386
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Speaker 3: Out of the short role.

387
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,399
Speaker 2: And if you try to switch, then they're just going

388
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,080
to use Siakam as the switcher, as the screener I mean,

389
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,519
and then he's going to punish the mismatch inside. So

390
00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:52,519
there's become a lot of variety by which they can score.

391
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,679
But even before that, and a way that I think

392
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,639
Siakam reflects it is that they didn't really change that

393
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,559
much after they acquired him, offensively, not a lot change,

394
00:17:02,279 --> 00:17:03,919
And they even talked about this, Like I wrote an

395
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,480
article about all of the post entry passes that Pascal

396
00:17:06,519 --> 00:17:10,079
had caught from the Pacers last season and how intriguing

397
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,519
it was that a lot of them were coming from

398
00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:13,400
the top of the key rather than the wing entry

399
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,599
that he was more so seeing with the Raptors. And

400
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,839
part of the reasons why that was possible is because

401
00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:20,640
Miles is at the top of the key. You're setting,

402
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,079
you know, an empty side ball screen with Pascal. To

403
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,519
get that switch, you reverse the ball the Miles then

404
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:27,440
on the backside, they'll have you know, a flare and

405
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,720
a lift to remove that low man, and if it

406
00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:32,279
isn't a switch, they have an automatically built encounter that

407
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,480
you know, we're going to flow into a stagger. It's

408
00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:36,440
one action into the next. And a lot of times

409
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,000
people think about the pacers playing fast in terms of

410
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,039
how quickly they get up and down the floor, but

411
00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:45,279
they also transition very quickly with it between actions and

412
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,960
the half court as well. So I think that kind

413
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,440
of Siakam coming over and just so organically fitting in

414
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:52,720
in the ways that he did, and I think that

415
00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:55,359
there's times where they probably you know, could be more

416
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,079
cognizant of him as that first initial domino, and hopefully

417
00:17:58,079 --> 00:18:00,440
that happens with the full training camp and more so

418
00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:03,000
what we're seeing. But that's one thing that I would

419
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,079
point to that, like with the coaching staff when I'm

420
00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,319
talking about like they may not necessarily have top ten

421
00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:11,279
offensive talent overall, and yet look at what they're getting.

422
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,079
There's little things like just in that one specific player

423
00:18:14,079 --> 00:18:16,359
where you can see like how fool proof that is

424
00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,279
against multiple coverages. The ball handlers that they have. I

425
00:18:19,319 --> 00:18:21,279
think that they probably in my opinion, have the most

426
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,119
depth at the point guard position of any team in

427
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,799
the NBA, who are able to make really quick reads

428
00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:27,480
based on what they're seeing on the floor, and they

429
00:18:27,519 --> 00:18:29,400
really do. I mean it's become a cliche, but they

430
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:31,759
aim to play random as much as possible, and they

431
00:18:31,759 --> 00:18:32,680
have a lot of players who.

432
00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:33,359
Speaker 3: Are capable of doing that.

433
00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:37,799
Speaker 1: What did you make of the Siakam Haliburton dynamic, like

434
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,759
just during that initial period before they've gone through a

435
00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:42,480
training camp together, because it felt at times, I don't

436
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,119
know if this was the fact that Halbert missed some

437
00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:46,519
time he was banged up, and they also have them

438
00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:49,119
off the ball more once Buddy healed leaves, it felt

439
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,839
like they were leading separate existences to me at points

440
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,119
when I was watching them. But what did you make

441
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:55,839
of that dynamic and what would you like to see

442
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,200
or how would you expect it to grow leading into

443
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:58,759
next season.

444
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 3: I think that's a good way to put it.

445
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,079
Speaker 2: I think there was times where they were kind of

446
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,680
existing in separate spheres if you look at the numbers,

447
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,000
like I think I anticipated seeing a lot more of

448
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,119
potentially tyres being used as an inverted screener for Siakam

449
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:14,920
than what you saw earlier on, but then when you

450
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,119
started watching the matchups, it's like, oh, this is actually

451
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,079
kind of tricky to get to because they're both being

452
00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:21,920
guarded by the opposing team's best players, and then if

453
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,960
you get that switch, it's not necessarily an advantage. So

454
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,400
when you're talking about them kind of existing in separate spaces.

455
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,680
It became a place where it's like, Okay, enter the

456
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,519
ball to pass gal at the elbow and put Tyrese

457
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,920
at the weak side wing, put Miles in the ball

458
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,480
side corner, put a guard in the dunker spot, and

459
00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:41,000
it can It became inverted spacing there, something that you

460
00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:42,880
see the Thunder do a lot, something that you see

461
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,079
Boston do a lot, where they put those guards in

462
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,559
the dunkers. So it's a much smaller person as a

463
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,440
rim protector, a person who's not usually in position to

464
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,440
have to be bluffing to protect the rim, and both

465
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,359
stay at the dunker spot. So that's something that they

466
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,759
went to, but I think I would like to see

467
00:19:57,759 --> 00:19:59,599
them go to the inverted looks a little bit more,

468
00:19:59,599 --> 00:20:01,400
and they did it the playoffs. One of my favorite

469
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,440
playoff moments was against the Knicks when ty Resee was

470
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,559
being hounded to the degree that he was by Duce

471
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,240
McBride and he ends up being top locked, and he

472
00:20:09,319 --> 00:20:11,799
tried to go set an inverted reverse angle screen at

473
00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:14,480
the elbow fora which Siakam then rejected and got to

474
00:20:14,519 --> 00:20:16,720
the rim. It was just a lot of high caliber

475
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:19,960
problem solving for them to be reading those things in

476
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,200
the moment and know what adjustment Tyres needed to make

477
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,279
given how much teams were also forcing into the sidelines

478
00:20:26,319 --> 00:20:28,240
and those partular games to prevent him from being able

479
00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:30,119
to get to his right and the angle that they

480
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,240
popped Siakam at to get to that as well. So

481
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,519
I think that there's still room for them to grow

482
00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:36,440
with that, and hopefully that's something that will happen coming

483
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:37,839
out of training camp. And I will say on the

484
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,640
side note of that is that's also why Nemhard and

485
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,680
Siakam might be really good pick and roll partners to

486
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,359
a degree, because Nemhart is not going to be guarded

487
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,160
by the top assignment. He's going to be getting the

488
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,799
weaker assignment. So if he goes in screens for Seakam's

489
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:52,599
going to be getting a more favorable matchup, and a

490
00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:55,039
lot of that's going to be dependent on if Nemhart

491
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:57,200
can have the same degree of gravity that Tyrese does

492
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,119
when he leaks out of that you know, that slot

493
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,599
screen and goes to the perimeter. So that's something to

494
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,720
monitor because I don't think those numbers shook out pretty

495
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,160
very well for the Pacers quite yet. But Nemhart obviously

496
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,440
did make strides with his shot during the playoff run.

497
00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: So you have already mentioned Pascal Siakam's defensive role, and

498
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,160
one of the pieces you wrote this offseason, which was

499
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,720
great obviously, was about his defensive role and how they

500
00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:21,279
use him in all these different ways to a point

501
00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:24,519
where it felt like just reading it inconsistently. What do

502
00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:26,559
you view and I know you just mentioned about it

503
00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:29,799
is his ideal role Okay, he's guarding the big and

504
00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:32,079
then switching ball screens. Is that you want to tether

505
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,559
him to a primary wing assignment? What do you view

506
00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:38,240
as his ideal defensive role if you were running things?

507
00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:41,200
And also do we ever expect him to have maybe

508
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,880
more of a I don't know the way to phrase

509
00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:45,200
like a stable offensive identity where it's kind of just

510
00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:48,279
moving him around and changing the way he's used, just

511
00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:48,799
going to be.

512
00:21:48,759 --> 00:21:50,079
Speaker 3: The stasis.

513
00:21:51,079 --> 00:21:54,079
Speaker 2: Defensively, it's interesting because as well, and like what I

514
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,720
just described about the post entry passes with Siakam and

515
00:21:56,759 --> 00:21:59,759
in part why that's possible because Miles, you know, if

516
00:21:59,759 --> 00:22:02,680
he's outside the three point line, typically people are the

517
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,319
bigs at least going to have their feet outside the

518
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,359
free throw line to kind of make that high, low

519
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,119
post terry pass possible as well as they fit and

520
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,319
as much as it makes sense that Seakham said, like

521
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,799
you know, after Kevin Durant, Miles is one of the

522
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:17,599
players that he wanted to play with most. It's a

523
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,720
little bit trickier defensively because Miles is a player that

524
00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:24,079
you don't want to switch with, and Siakam's a player

525
00:22:24,079 --> 00:22:26,200
who needs to switch. So there's times in like four

526
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,160
or five screening actions where Seakam's just running into contact.

527
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,960
He's a big body, he's a big target. I don't

528
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,279
think it's necessarily reasonable to expect him to get over

529
00:22:34,279 --> 00:22:36,519
those screens, and he really wasn't. So like you could

530
00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:39,279
watch games like one that's very telling is they played

531
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:43,640
the Pelicans after the trade deadline, in which they put

532
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,920
Siakam on Jonas Valentiunas to start that game Miles Turner

533
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,559
was guarding Zion Williamson and Aaron NEI Smith was guarding

534
00:22:49,559 --> 00:22:53,200
brandon Ingram And when the screener approaches being valentunis Aaron's

535
00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:55,079
chasing over the top because they don't want to switch

536
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:56,920
it because they don't want Aaron to have a mismatch.

537
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,359
Whether Aaron Ne Smith would potentially be getting scrammed and

538
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,039
running out of the corner into a mismatch with Zion Williamson,

539
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:04,240
So then you kind of have Siakam and drop, which

540
00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:06,880
isn't his best coverage. And like, I understand where that

541
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,000
line of thought's coming from, because I really do think

542
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:12,160
that Miles at this stage in his career as better

543
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,519
as a potential big that you keep low around the

544
00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:17,720
rim and as a weak cybrim protector rather than a

545
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,920
ball side anchor. But the problem is you have to

546
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,680
have the right four to do that. And while Seacam

547
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,599
I do think is capable of guarding a screener and

548
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,000
switching out to the ball, they don't have that wing defender. Again,

549
00:23:27,079 --> 00:23:28,720
like I mentioned that, if you know you had done

550
00:23:28,759 --> 00:23:30,599
that with Aaron Nesmith, then he's going to be running

551
00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:34,400
to a mismatch with Zion under the basket, and also

552
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:37,279
just the fact that I do think that quietly teams

553
00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:40,400
have started getting better at adjusting for the roaming big

554
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:43,640
like they'll just use Miles as defender as the screener anyways,

555
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,240
and he's still going to be in pick and relaction,

556
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,440
So I don't necessarily know if that's all a fool

557
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,319
proof solution. The things that I've seen from Siakam, what

558
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,599
I liked from him the most is I did think

559
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,319
he was effective using his lateral size in that series

560
00:23:56,319 --> 00:23:59,000
against the Knicks when you know he was roaming off

561
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:02,680
of a two Josh Hart and just having that shadow presence.

562
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,319
I think a lot of people talked about making the

563
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,480
switch between Nemhart and Nie Smith on ball, and that

564
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,519
didn't make a difference because Nie Smith had more linked

565
00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:12,079
on Brunson, but he was able to press up and

566
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,480
use his link against bruns and more because Yakam was

567
00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:17,799
back in the shadows and he again is okay and

568
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,759
contained when he switches out to the ball. But there

569
00:24:20,839 --> 00:24:23,400
was a lot of other roles for him where I

570
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,920
think some of it comes from a very dramatic scheme

571
00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:28,680
change coming from playing from Nick Nurse and even under

572
00:24:28,759 --> 00:24:31,160
dark Oriakovic and then coming to what the Pacers were

573
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,279
attempting to do, and also just him reaching the point

574
00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:37,480
in his career where he's not necessarily like an emphatic

575
00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:40,680
secondary rim protector anymore. Sometimes when he's face with speed

576
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,319
on the perimeter, he can't quite stay in front. And again,

577
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:44,880
there was just a lot of games where it was like,

578
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,920
you know, I understand why in Game four he wasn't

579
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,480
guarding Jalen Brown anymore. So that's kind of the spot

580
00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:52,720
that they find themselves in.

581
00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:56,839
Speaker 1: Do you think when they got him, they like did

582
00:24:56,839 --> 00:24:58,799
so understanding that they were still going to then need

583
00:24:58,839 --> 00:25:01,920
to go out and get that other wing player. Do

584
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:03,519
you think the hope was that he would be able

585
00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:07,279
to handle those more of those situations in higher volume.

586
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: I think some of it depends on the wing too,

587
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,359
because late in the game against Phoenix, both teams ended

588
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,640
up countering in Nurkichen Miles term were not.

589
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 3: On the floor anymore.

590
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,279
Speaker 2: Kevin Durant was at the five and Siakam managed there

591
00:25:20,319 --> 00:25:22,119
because Kevin Durant, you know, is more of a player

592
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,079
who's going to attack with his jump shot and from

593
00:25:25,079 --> 00:25:27,440
mid range, and there Siakam can use his linked and

594
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,440
stand front. So there are certain ones Jalen Brown's speed

595
00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:33,960
bothered him. It also didn't help that sometimes they were

596
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,720
trying to execute in congruent pick and roll coverages against

597
00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:40,440
Jalen Brown in that series between him and Tyree Saliburton

598
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,079
at the same time. But I think that they might

599
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,079
have because, to be honest, like I watched a lot

600
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,599
of Raptors because I do a lot of Raptors crossover content,

601
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,720
and I thought, in part, you know, there's a soul

602
00:25:49,839 --> 00:25:52,440
tax to be played here, like one of.

603
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,079
Speaker 1: My favorite Kaitlyn Cooper phrases.

604
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, because like Ogionanobi wasn't defending great either before he

605
00:25:58,559 --> 00:26:00,640
got traded in Nick like he only goes to the

606
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,240
Knicks and he makes that entire roster makes sense defensively,

607
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:05,759
like everybody's in a more natural role. So they might

608
00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:08,319
have thought, you know, Pascal might bounce back a little

609
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,880
bit here, and there were times where he did. But

610
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,599
I think that they still overall, like even if they

611
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,359
thought this is the defense they were going to get

612
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,640
from Siakham, you still make that trade, especially with what

613
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,079
they gave up. Jordan Wore is not in the league anymore.

614
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:24,359
Bruce Brown kind of underperformed for the Pacers quietly before

615
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,400
he was even traded to Toronto, where he also underperformed

616
00:26:28,319 --> 00:26:30,920
for reasons that I don't know how much he really

617
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,000
wanted to be in Toronto after he got traded there.

618
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,720
I'll just leave that there. But and you know, the

619
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,640
middling first that they also gave up with them, So

620
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,640
he answered so many other things that they needed that

621
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,839
were reflected in that nd season tournament loss that I

622
00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:45,240
think that they're still you know, it doesn't color my

623
00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:46,960
opinion of the trade and that it was a home

624
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:49,319
run for them to do it at the asking price.

625
00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:51,519
It's just that, Yeah, now that they've seen it, I

626
00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:53,680
would expect that they still think that they have more

627
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,880
work to do to build out the defensive foundation that

628
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,160
they have.

629
00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:01,279
Speaker 1: Only tangentially related, I've been using soul tax thing to

630
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,200
describe Tobias Harris in Detroit because of like everyone was

631
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,240
so down on him in Philly, and I was, like

632
00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:09,759
Caitlin uses the term soul tax. I feel like Tobias

633
00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:12,319
Harris might be first team allsoll tax based off how

634
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,480
like the past two years went.

635
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 3: The change of expectations could be good for him.

636
00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:19,759
Speaker 2: You don't know, like going from where there's championship expectations

637
00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:21,799
and he's always disappointing to going to a place where

638
00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:24,000
he needs to be a floor razer and a veteran presence,

639
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,279
we might look at him differently in the year.

640
00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: So Tyre's Haliburton, what do you make of a season

641
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,559
in which he looks like a top five MVP lock

642
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,599
for a huge chunk of the year, gets injured, comes

643
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,799
back struggles. Then you also go through the Buddy Heel

644
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,880
trade in addition to the Pascal Siakam arrival, and then

645
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,000
Tyre's Haliburton it felt like after the Buddy Healed exit,

646
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,599
like he was being used completely differently. Again, what do

647
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,880
you just kind of take away from Halliburton's season and like,

648
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,880
what does the next front tier? Now that he's gonna

649
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,680
go through a full training camp and this is where

650
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,319
of the roster it's set for now, what do you like,

651
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,799
what is the next frontier for him?

652
00:27:59,799 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: Then?

653
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 4: Right?

654
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: I mean you said what's the biggest storyline you'll be monitoring?

655
00:28:04,279 --> 00:28:06,759
And I feel like Tyres is probably the biggest story that,

656
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:09,359
like most national media is going to be monitoring because

657
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,880
there was that massive swing and as you mentioned, when

658
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,480
he started the season. I don't have the numbers in

659
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,319
front of me, but his conversion rate on pull up

660
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,559
threes was to begin the year, and on the volume

661
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:21,200
he was doing it at was very similar to Steph

662
00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:24,160
Curry's MVP run in twenty sixteen. I don't know if

663
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,000
he's going to be able to maintain those types of

664
00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:28,240
numbers for a full season, but I think he is

665
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,359
closer to being the player that we saw at the

666
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,160
beginning of the year than what we were seeing post

667
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,480
hamstring injury, especially when he tried to come back and

668
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:37,559
then they ended up being out a little bit longer

669
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:40,000
after playing that first game with Siakham and Portland, and

670
00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:42,240
as you mentioned, like the Buddy Heel thing, like I

671
00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:44,680
want to be clear because I think people confuse what

672
00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:47,359
I meant about Buddy at times. I do not think

673
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:50,400
the Buddy held made Tyrese Haliburn. Tyre's Haliburn is a

674
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,599
star in and of himself. That being said, when you're

675
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,359
somebody who's going through a hamstring injury and you are

676
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,119
very notably struggling to gain separation on the perimeter, and

677
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,720
the number one thing that the Pacers do is they

678
00:29:01,759 --> 00:29:06,440
were they ranked thirtieth in isolations before acquiring Pascal Siakam

679
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,359
thirtieth in isolations per one hundred posessions.

680
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: They don't do McConnell on the roster. How are you

681
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,680
not isolating all the time?

682
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:13,519
Speaker 3: Exactly right?

683
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:15,519
Speaker 2: So, I mean when tyree would get a switch against

684
00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:16,880
a big on the perimeter, and the number one thing

685
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,440
that they would do is have Buddy go, you know,

686
00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:20,799
blur Go set a ghost screen to try to crrate

687
00:29:20,839 --> 00:29:23,079
a little bit of hesitation to gain traction for Tyrese.

688
00:29:23,079 --> 00:29:25,039
And I was tracking it at the time when he

689
00:29:25,079 --> 00:29:27,160
was really going through that three point shooting slump, and

690
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,079
I was like, well, look at it. When he's having

691
00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:32,480
to do self created threes, he's more often going to

692
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:34,839
his step back to his left, which is not Tyresee's

693
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,440
normal pattern. Tyrese prefers to step back to his right,

694
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,640
but he wasn't getting to that shot as often, in

695
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,960
part because people were shading him to his left more often,

696
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,160
but also because he couldn't power off of that left

697
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,559
leg with the hamstring injury as much anymore, and it

698
00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:48,319
was affecting what type of shots he got. And also

699
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:50,920
because he became the best movement shooter in the starting lineup,

700
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,599
things that Buddy was doing, Tyresee was now doing. He

701
00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:56,279
was the person running you know, off of floppy actions

702
00:29:56,319 --> 00:29:58,519
under the basket, or he was becoming the ghost screener,

703
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,519
or he was setting you know, I'm incredibly high volume,

704
00:30:01,559 --> 00:30:03,559
but he was the best person to set an inverted

705
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:05,160
screen and leak out to the perimeter because he has

706
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,240
the most gravity. So I mean, you saw he was

707
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,599
doing more as the off ball cutter. He was receiving

708
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,799
less picks as the pick and roll ball handler. Defensive

709
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:14,359
coverages were changing against him. So I think that when

710
00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:16,160
he's healthy again, you're gonna see a little bit of

711
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,480
a restoration back towards what that role was, and hopefully

712
00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:21,799
they can find other players that they can plug in

713
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,799
and you know, provide a reasonable facsimile for some of

714
00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:26,599
what Buddy was doing. Because those guys, you know, tyres

715
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,000
had played with him for his whole career.

716
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,519
Speaker 3: That was a reality. Like I know, people like to

717
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:30,880
think that.

718
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,119
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, Isaac Newton and somehow, like

719
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,640
an apple hit me on the head and I just

720
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,640
made up the concept of gravity. But it really was

721
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,799
a thing in terms of what in terms of what

722
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,160
ways that Tyresee was operating in the offense. Like numerically,

723
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,119
you can look at it and see, oh, he's setting

724
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,880
way more screen, He's being used as the cutter way

725
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,799
more often, and he's getting like ten ball screens less

726
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:52,839
per a one under possessions. Since Buddy was traded, like

727
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,839
there was going to be an adjustment period, even though

728
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,519
like I said, I don't think Buddy made him. It

729
00:30:57,559 --> 00:30:59,559
was just going to be a change from there. So

730
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:01,759
when you ask about like what I'm looking at going forward,

731
00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:04,039
it's the most important thing for Tyrese is going to

732
00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:06,440
be durability and being able to stay healthy. And there

733
00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:09,160
was some reporting that he had kind of had some

734
00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:11,599
type of an injury over the back two games with Timosa,

735
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,359
So we'll see how he's in training camp that's top notch.

736
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,359
And then obviously, you know, defensively, like I mentioned prior

737
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:19,400
to can he can he take a bump and still

738
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,880
be able to get over the top of the screen.

739
00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:23,680
Not being bullied quite as much potentially, like you know,

740
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,000
was a little bit damaging at times in the Eastern

741
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,880
Conference finals when he was having to guard Drew because

742
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,039
he is giving up some hef there and those types

743
00:31:30,079 --> 00:31:32,680
of matchups or Drew is going to some volly ball possessions,

744
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,359
and then also like this is a very niche thing,

745
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,920
but because he gets forced left so often. There was

746
00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:42,799
one game last year where he made a lefty floater,

747
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:45,160
and I actually think that if he could develop an

748
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,240
off hand floater, that would be huge for him. Like

749
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:49,920
he went to it deliberately because you know, one of

750
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,599
the things with Tyrese is so much of his games

751
00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:54,000
built on range and touch that there's added incentive to

752
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,240
weake him because you're already sitting on his dominant hand

753
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,960
when he goes to stop and pop in the lane

754
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,440
with the right. If you're sitting on that hip and

755
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,319
he can go to it with his offhand and get

756
00:32:02,319 --> 00:32:04,920
to it, that would be a really big counter for him.

757
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,839
So that was like a really quiet thing that he

758
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,920
did against one of the games they played against the Pistons,

759
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,240
I believe, But continuing to see that accuracy there and

760
00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:16,920
just being one just being.

761
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:19,119
Speaker 1: Oh, sorry, I an I mean to talk over you there.

762
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,359
I was gonna say, you kind of just made me

763
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,519
wonder who is the best offhand floater in the NBA

764
00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:24,920
at the moment, And I don't even have anything.

765
00:32:25,079 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: Conny Mike Conley deliberately goes like he you know, uses

766
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:30,720
as it is in his dombint hand.

767
00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:34,519
Speaker 1: What stood out to you the most about Andrew Nemhard's

768
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:38,839
season last year, where like there was an actualization of

769
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,200
all the flashes or hints of stuff that he had

770
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,680
showed during his first year in Indiana.

771
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing that quietly

772
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,200
stood out is that he had a really solid Summer

773
00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:53,400
league a year ago. He was just really mosing to

774
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,319
his spots, playing with a lot of composure. I felt

775
00:32:56,799 --> 00:32:58,759
really confident about him at an end of the season,

776
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:00,400
but then you looked at the roster and it's like,

777
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:03,160
you know, where's the role going to necessarily come from

778
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,079
because they signed Bruce Brown, And it was almost like

779
00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:07,839
he was gonna have a smaller role because TJ McColl's

780
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,400
the backup point guard. As it turns out, the first

781
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,559
game of the year, nem Hard's the backup point guard.

782
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,240
TJ ends up calling his way back into the rotation

783
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,480
when they played in the N Season Tournament. When you

784
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,599
look at those minutes, like he played four minutes against

785
00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:20,920
Boston in the ND Season Tournament. He came in late

786
00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:24,240
against the Bucks when they were in Vegas and kind

787
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,920
of was a little bit of a zone buster, made

788
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,160
some plays defensively, but he wasn't like TJ had usurped

789
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,079
him for a time. And some of it was just

790
00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:33,880
the dynamic of at a certain point in time, it's

791
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,160
like Andrews doing the Bruce Brown things better than Bruce Brown.

792
00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:39,599
But also he just had to overcome the fact that

793
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,240
he literally pretty much missed the entirety of training camp

794
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:44,440
because he had to have that kidney stone, and then

795
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,559
he got slowed down by other injuries where he wasn't

796
00:33:46,559 --> 00:33:49,079
being able to have off day training days or his handle.

797
00:33:49,599 --> 00:33:51,039
Like one of the reasons I could tell he wasn't

798
00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:54,200
one hundred percent was because he wasn't going to his

799
00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:56,880
inside hand throw ahead dribble or to throw a head

800
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,720
dribble that he would use in transition. It just didn't

801
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,599
seem like he had the same flexible. When you get

802
00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:02,640
into the playoffs, he was getting to some more of

803
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,079
those dribble combination moves, it was tighter. And then obviously

804
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,639
the shot development. You know, he had worked with Jenny

805
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,440
Boussick a lot on that over the summer a year ago,

806
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,320
and it wasn't coming around for him until you know,

807
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,320
he makes that game winner. He made like I believe,

808
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,960
five self created threes the entirety of the season, and

809
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,480
then he makes that one. Wasn't exactly like picturesque in

810
00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,800
his execution, given that he kind of mishandled the ball

811
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,599
twice before he made it. But you know, hitting fifty

812
00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:29,679
percent on catching shoot threes is really big for him.

813
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,400
He was already a wonderful passers. Him being more aggressive

814
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,719
and looking for his shot. People are probably thinking I'm

815
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,679
droning on here, but like when you watch him play

816
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,239
early against the Celtics in the season in November when

817
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,400
they gave up you know, historic scoring out into the Celtics.

818
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,559
In that game, he had a hand like very few

819
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,079
I want to say, less than five potential assists. There

820
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,639
was times guys were ducking under he was immediately getting

821
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,440
off the ball without looking at the rim. Similar coverage

822
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,400
in the Eastern Conference finals, and he's actually like using

823
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,920
a bump to still get to his spot against that under.

824
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:03,880
He's looking at the rim looking for you know, he

825
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,920
made There was one game where the Patients made five

826
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,880
threes and he made four of them. So like it

827
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,599
was just a lot of night and day stuff there,

828
00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:10,960
so we'll see how the shot holds up.

829
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: He put the work in for it to be there.

830
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,199
Speaker 2: I don't think he's going to hit fifty on catch

831
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:17,800
and sheet trees, but the development from him. Overall, all

832
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,239
three point guards attack very differently from the pacers, and

833
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,320
all of them have their place and certainly, you know,

834
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,239
Memhard meshes really well with Tyres. Because of that, it

835
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,960
was very evident in the playoffs that it was helpful

836
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,960
to have a secondary ball handler out there that could

837
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,880
be initiating against Damian Lillard, against Jalen Brunson, to be

838
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,280
putting them into action with Tyres, you know, sometimes doing

839
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,840
some things off ball, and then also having Andrew obviously

840
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,960
be able to defend at the point of attack, which

841
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,800
is something that that dual dynamic isn't something that anybody

842
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,000
else does to his degree on the roster.

843
00:35:48,599 --> 00:35:52,039
Speaker 1: From my million foot view last season, and like entering

844
00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:54,079
last season, I just viewed to Andrew partners just like

845
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:56,760
this defensive specialist, and then to see where he is

846
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,239
by the end of the year, just so comfortable getting

847
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,880
off is created jumpers, was just like it felt like

848
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,920
a completely different player where it's like I just trust

849
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,679
his offense more than I trust his defense at that point.

850
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,320
And had you told me that that's how I would

851
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,079
feel last September, there's no I just I wouldn't have

852
00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:16,199
been able to fathom it. And so like in.

853
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: Now in the playoffs, the Pacers scored more points per

854
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,880
chance with Nemhart as the pick and roll ball handler

855
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,360
very quietly than they did with Tyree or with TJ.

856
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,960
And that in part again like I'm talking about, like

857
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,239
when you're being guarded by Damian Lollard and jaylen Brunson,

858
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,719
that certainly helps, but also it certainly helps when you

859
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,199
have somebody that can be putting those guys through pick

860
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,239
and roll actions and still be making the correct reads

861
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,920
for them to be able to do that. So yeah, no,

862
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:42,039
I will say I was one of the higher people

863
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:44,760
and Andrew Nemmart Like I did the preview pot with

864
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,840
Nate Duncan and they're like, you know, what, what guys

865
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,320
are you looking at? And I was like, Andrew Nemhart

866
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:50,239
had a really good summer.

867
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:56,199
Speaker 1: So you did You mentioned before about Tyresse Halbert and

868
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,519
some of his production or role restoration coming to the season.

869
00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:01,440
Does that mean and then we're going to see is

870
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,719
that like something Andrew Demhard can replicate. Where you talking

871
00:37:03,679 --> 00:37:05,960
about all the stuff that Tyri's Halberton was doing away

872
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,360
from the ball. Do you view Andrew Nemhart as someone

873
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,800
who can replicate then some of that volume or is

874
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,719
he more comfortable being the guy who's operating on the

875
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:15,840
ball in those situations.

876
00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one possession that I was nervous about.

877
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,239
They were up in Toronto, and Andrew was kind of

878
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,320
playing in the buddy role standing at the weak side wing,

879
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,000
and Tyree's came off a pick and all season long,

880
00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:30,360
Tyreese doesn't often see next coverage or that player at

881
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,679
the wing will literally, you know, hop onto the ball

882
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,519
on a pick and roll coverage with Tyresee's defender peeling

883
00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:38,719
off to Andrew at the wing. And it really surprised

884
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,000
Tyreek because when you're playing with buddy, you know, people

885
00:37:41,039 --> 00:37:42,880
face guard him and we'll stay Claire at the three

886
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,800
point line. It wasn't something that he normally saw. He

887
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,559
got caught off guard, ended up getting his shot blocked

888
00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:50,320
on a pull up two, despite the fact that Tyree

889
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,559
shoots pull up two's his jump shots, whereas it shoots

890
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:54,960
threes as set shots. And I think it ended up

891
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,880
being a turnover after the Raptors collected the ball, and

892
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,360
I was like, ooh, you know, we'll see, We'll see

893
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,760
how that plays out and what the gravity's like. You know,

894
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,639
if if Nedmore's shot holds up, people aren't going to

895
00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:09,000
be willing to do, you know, potentially those types of things,

896
00:38:09,079 --> 00:38:11,639
especially because you know, something that I kind of pointed

897
00:38:11,639 --> 00:38:13,639
out as an audity about Nedmot is how far he

898
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,079
stands off the three point line. And at times, like

899
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:17,920
he'll catch a grenade and he'll be like at thirty

900
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,119
feet and it's like, okay, like you haven't made any

901
00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:22,199
shots from that depth. But and it allows him to

902
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:23,840
attack a longer close out and if sure paid a

903
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,039
dividend when he made you know, the game winner from

904
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:28,800
that depth and the playoffs agg on my face with

905
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,199
that one. But he doesn't take a lot of movement threes.

906
00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:33,639
I will say that, like there was a point in

907
00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:35,639
the game against Canada where I had looked up a

908
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,400
number because against Zone he'd actually moved into the corner

909
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,360
from the baseline and made a three, and I was like,

910
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,079
I don't know if I saw him do that all

911
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:45,360
season for the Pacers. So the movement shooting aspect of it.

912
00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:47,000
He's not going to be on the same level as

913
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:49,760
Tyree sat in order to just flip flop them. But

914
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,199
in terms of, like, you know, having Tyree's being able

915
00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:54,480
to do more out of the pick and roll and

916
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,199
Andrew being you know, a reliable catch and shoot shooter,

917
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,880
I think that that's possible. In addition, Tom continuing to

918
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,000
get you know, similar volume of ball screens, it's still

919
00:39:04,159 --> 00:39:06,400
considerably less than what Tyree's gets, and being able to

920
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,119
have his own opportunity to run the offense too at times.

921
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:10,519
I think a lot of it's just going to depend

922
00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:11,719
on what type of coverage they're saying.

923
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: To be quite honest, what did you make of Bene

924
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,239
mcmatherin season pre shoulder injury and what is now his

925
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,719
pathway to fitting in on a team that has this

926
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,159
version of Andrew m hard in addition to Tyres Halbert,

927
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,960
not to mention Pascal Siakam who eats the ball, and

928
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,519
then of course TJ McConnell also getting his extension.

929
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to be clear, I don't speak for

930
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,960
the Pacers here. This isn't something that they've said public

931
00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:37,000
layer to anybody, But like if it were me after

932
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:39,599
the playoffs, I would feel like I have three rock

933
00:39:39,679 --> 00:39:43,800
solid starters, and Tyreese Nemhard and Pascal Siakam. I have

934
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,960
a little bit more question marks at the other two spots.

935
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,440
Clearly Miles Turner on this roster, given the personnel that

936
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,840
are there, there's nobody, you know, there's not an in

937
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,320
house replacement for Miles Turner, and Miles did a lot

938
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,599
of good things for them offensively.

939
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,119
Speaker 3: We might touch on him later, but.

940
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: Like with regards to Ben, I think that there's a

941
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,360
tendency to turn Andrew Nemoart and Bennettict Mathern weirdly into

942
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,239
the next Turner and Sabonus and make this contentious. I

943
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,679
don't really see as though that's the spot that Ben

944
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,800
would necessarily be coming for, because we just saw the

945
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,719
things that happened to tyres in the playoffs, the exaggerated

946
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,599
coverages that he saw in the way that Andrew Nemore

947
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,400
answered some of those. For Ben, if he's going to

948
00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:20,559
leap frog over somebody, I would more so see it

949
00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:24,320
being Aaron Neiesmith and Ben becoming the starter there, because

950
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,519
as many good things as Aaron does, you get into

951
00:40:26,599 --> 00:40:29,280
a place in the playoffs, where you know, over eighty

952
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,000
five percent of Aaron shots were zero dribble threes. Of

953
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,559
his threes were zero dribble threes. He's not somebody who

954
00:40:35,559 --> 00:40:37,920
can really recapture his own rhythm with a one dribble

955
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,559
side step three. And then he did make several pull

956
00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:42,719
up twos in Game seven against the Knicks, but you know,

957
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,920
he made like twenty of those total in the regular season. Like,

958
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,480
if you run him aggressively off the line, he doesn't

959
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:51,440
necessarily have a counter. Ben, to his credit, has the

960
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,840
crystallized skill and that there are shots that he can

961
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,599
get to that nobody on the roster can get to.

962
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,559
So the question for Ben becomes can he make enough

963
00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:03,039
strides defensively to warrant you not playing Aaron E.

964
00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 3: Smith.

965
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: I have some questions about that to this current point

966
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,000
in time, because in games when they needed to do that,

967
00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:11,480
like they started Ben, Andrew and Tyree against the Dallas Matvericks.

968
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,320
That was a game that they won, but you could

969
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,920
see early on like not necessarily ideal to be having

970
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,159
Ben guarding Luca or Kyrie irving in the same way

971
00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:21,639
that you would feel more comfortable with it being you know,

972
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,079
Andrew and aaron Ne Smith. So Ben a lot of

973
00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:29,519
it defensively, point of attack wise, like his screen navigation

974
00:41:29,559 --> 00:41:31,639
is still pretty rough. He veers way too early. Like

975
00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:33,559
you look at the numbers. If it's Ben Sheppard at

976
00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:35,360
the point of attack with Miles Turner, they allow like

977
00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:36,679
zero point eight points per chance.

978
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,599
Speaker 3: When it's Ben atic Matheren, it's like one.

979
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,199
Speaker 2: Point one two one, Like it's a dramatic swing for

980
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,280
Miles Turner when it's Ben at the point of attack

981
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,079
having to actually guard over screens. But Ben is okay

982
00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:49,159
in certain situations. He's better on ball than he is

983
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,920
off ball, and that's where the awareness things happen, because

984
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,360
I genuinely projecting feel and projecting awareness, particularly on the

985
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,519
defensive end, is a very tough thing to do. It's

986
00:41:58,599 --> 00:42:00,760
possible that Ben could come back and things really click

987
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,199
for him, and he does have the athleticism, he has

988
00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:06,199
the tenacity that you could be like, hey, look there

989
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,960
is a defender in there. But if he continues to

990
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,800
have some of the coverage lapses, some of you know,

991
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,079
can be getting cut by Max Screws two times on

992
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:17,440
the same possession, and then some of the point of

993
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,719
attack stuff that you already need to relieve from Tyris

994
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,840
haliburtn it becomes it becomes trickier. And then also, like

995
00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:25,760
the impact numbers weren't great for Ben on the year,

996
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,639
and Ben's usage swings wildly when he plays with Tyree's

997
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,920
versus when he doesn't. It's like twenty six percent without

998
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,920
Tyres and like twenty to below with Tyres. So in

999
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,000
some ways, I think it's just more natural for him

1000
00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:40,920
to be that six man score getting to play with

1001
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,239
either tj or Ben Shepherd who can defend at the

1002
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,920
point of attack, where you can funnel more offense into

1003
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,280
the hands of Ben, and more importantly, you can run

1004
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,679
more plays for Ben because Ben plays much better out

1005
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:55,079
of plays than he does reads currently, And that's another thing.

1006
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,920
He needs to make quicker decisions. He needs to find

1007
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,960
the passing avenues when he gets to the rim because

1008
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,840
the league is being called differently. He doesn't get the

1009
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,280
same calls that he got as a rookie when he

1010
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,079
gets to the rim, and he draws that physicality that

1011
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:08,679
didn't happen last season, and teams know we can load

1012
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,199
up on him at the room because he literally had

1013
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,400
the lowest pass out rate on drives off any guard

1014
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,079
in the NBA last year it's like twenty something percent.

1015
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,719
So those types of things, and I want to be clear,

1016
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,599
like I think people think sometimes I'm too hard on Ben.

1017
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 3: There again, he was one.

1018
00:43:21,079 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 2: He was the best isolation scorer and he doesn't get

1019
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,960
as tough as assignments as Pascal as Tyres does, but overall,

1020
00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:29,119
like just on a points per possession standpoint, he was

1021
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:31,840
the best isolation scorer on the team. He can shoot

1022
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,800
over double teams in Toronto. There's some incredible shot making there.

1023
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,519
And I can definitely look at spots in the playoffs

1024
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:38,599
and be like, that's a spot where Benedict Madden would

1025
00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:40,960
have helped them. But in terms of him like taking

1026
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,320
the next step and entering into the starting lineup, that's

1027
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,000
going to have to be a prove it thing. Like

1028
00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:46,239
I don't think it's going to be the same as

1029
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,800
last year when he and Obi Toppen kind of or

1030
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,000
christened does the early season starters and then it was

1031
00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:54,840
like it was theirs to lose, which eventually did happen.

1032
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,280
I think this case is going to have to be

1033
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,599
for Ben, like what he does at training camp, what

1034
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:00,480
he does in preseason, the early seas, and for him

1035
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,320
to actually earn that spot, otherwise I would expect him

1036
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,159
to stick with the same starting line up his last year.

1037
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:09,119
Speaker 1: I guess they'll run into this issue with Jaris Walker

1038
00:44:09,159 --> 00:44:12,679
as well. But when you're juggling, the expectations of progress

1039
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,440
isn't linear. So even throwing out the Eastern Conferent Finals apperiance,

1040
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,840
this is a team that's trying to win. How much

1041
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,440
of like a runway are they going to be prepared

1042
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,159
to give Ben mcmather and when the thing that they

1043
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:25,280
probably need the most is not what he does best.

1044
00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:27,400
And then I don't mean to make this a Mathin

1045
00:44:27,519 --> 00:44:29,880
or Shepherd thing, but like when you have Shepherd who

1046
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,199
defends like he is an emotional attachment to the outcome

1047
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,039
of every single defensive possession, Like, is there just a

1048
00:44:35,159 --> 00:44:37,400
chance that for what the Pacers are trying to do

1049
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,039
this season, that Shephard winds up being like a better

1050
00:44:41,039 --> 00:44:43,840
option or more valuable or just more important to them?

1051
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1052
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,599
Speaker 2: I mean it's interesting because like I don't want again,

1053
00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:48,159
I don't want to be too hard on Ben because

1054
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,519
I do think that Ben exists someone in liminal space.

1055
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,920
I like to compare him to a trapeze artist. I

1056
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,280
do think that there were times where he was trying

1057
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,599
to make the correct read, it just wasn't always the

1058
00:44:58,639 --> 00:45:01,679
correct read, like go the wrong behind him. He just

1059
00:45:01,679 --> 00:45:04,159
hasn't quite grasped on to the next one quite yet.

1060
00:45:04,559 --> 00:45:07,000
So that's why it's difficult to say. And like you

1061
00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:08,639
just said, like Ben Sheppard was a part of the

1062
00:45:08,639 --> 00:45:10,599
Amien rotation, I don't think it's necessarily going to be

1063
00:45:10,599 --> 00:45:14,239
a case of Ben versus Ben either, because I'm pretty

1064
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,599
confident that they would play Mathern off the bench for

1065
00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:19,880
that scoring punch. But if they're willing to go ten,

1066
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,400
which there's reasons to think playing ten is hard in

1067
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,239
the NBA, but there's reason to think that this Pacer

1068
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,599
team in particular, if a team can do it, it's

1069
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:29,480
them because they really tried to manage minutes number one.

1070
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,159
That's something that Pascal's agent talked about that Pascal liked

1071
00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:34,599
that you know, he wasn't playing for Nick Nurse. He

1072
00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:36,800
didn't say Nick Nurse, but you know he wasn't playing

1073
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,039
the heavy minute load anymore. That they do monitor that

1074
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,760
the Pacers play a ton of press defense, they play

1075
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,800
very fast, that Behooves playing deeper into the roster, it's

1076
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,800
more going to be like, I think the tenth man

1077
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,000
decision between Ben Shepherd and Jarris Walker, and when you

1078
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,000
come to that, like Ben Shepherd, despite the fact that

1079
00:45:52,039 --> 00:45:53,880
he's not really going to be a player who shines

1080
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:57,679
in Summer League because of what he does offensively, defensively,

1081
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,519
he was making a lot of plays already, where like

1082
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:02,719
if it was based on defensive merit right now, right

1083
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,199
here today, without seeing whatever other progress has been made,

1084
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,480
I would still say that that Bend's ahead of Jaris

1085
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,400
defensively in terms of being able to plug him into

1086
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:11,599
the team right here, right now.

1087
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: What is the I'm fascinated by Ben Shephard. There's like

1088
00:46:15,039 --> 00:46:16,880
always there was a Summer League play that stood out

1089
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,920
to me in twenty twenty three. I pulled you in

1090
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,480
the outline the play where he is denying an entry

1091
00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:24,400
pass from Brook Lopez then steals it in the series

1092
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,360
against the Bucks. It just lives rent free in my

1093
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,719
head for some reason. What is like, like, what is

1094
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,159
the the ninetieth percentile outcome for a player like that?

1095
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,039
Because the energy that he gives you on defense, but

1096
00:46:35,079 --> 00:46:37,719
there's also some discipline mixed in and you just he's

1097
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,159
a type of player for me anyway, you watch him

1098
00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:42,440
and you feel him, It's like, what does that like

1099
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,639
do for this pace receiver? What does that mean to

1100
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:45,800
the pacers going forward?

1101
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, Defensively, he and them hard are at the top

1102
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:51,280
in terms of point of attack defenders. And then Ben

1103
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,519
Shephard is very good at both holding his ground and

1104
00:46:54,559 --> 00:46:57,519
covering a lot of ground on a close out. He

1105
00:46:57,559 --> 00:46:59,639
can cover a long close out with his quick feet

1106
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:01,920
more so than other people can, and then he can

1107
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,039
hold his spot on a veer switch and we'll actually

1108
00:47:04,079 --> 00:47:06,920
like get in run the scene and box that guy

1109
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,559
out or be able to front and really scrape and claw.

1110
00:47:09,639 --> 00:47:13,079
He projects his presence bigger than he is defensively, and

1111
00:47:13,119 --> 00:47:15,880
I'm sure he'll continue to add strength he's to his

1112
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,880
frame as he goes, given that he was a rookie

1113
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,519
last year. But for him, I think more so it

1114
00:47:20,559 --> 00:47:24,039
speaks to I think, I don't know how you are,

1115
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:26,480
but there's like two archetypes of players in the playoffs

1116
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,760
that I think really work. And one of them is

1117
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,280
a two guard who can run offense, hence Andrew DeMar

1118
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,920
and the other one is a movement shooter who can guard.

1119
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,039
Once a Contavious Caldwell Pope a Danny Green, and I

1120
00:47:38,039 --> 00:47:40,480
think that Danny Green's kind of what you're hoping.

1121
00:47:40,199 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 3: For with Ben Shepperd.

1122
00:47:41,519 --> 00:47:44,559
Speaker 2: Like that model because Ben isn't going to be a

1123
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:46,519
frequent driver. You know, you're always going to kind of

1124
00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:48,559
grin when Danny Green had to take more than about

1125
00:47:48,559 --> 00:47:52,599
two dribbles. But can Ben Shephard be the movement shooter

1126
00:47:52,639 --> 00:47:55,599
that he was projected to be coming out of Belmont?

1127
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,039
He only made one three in the series against Boston.

1128
00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:00,000
When he's playing more minutes, can he start making three?

1129
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,599
And also will he start taking them? Because this is

1130
00:48:02,639 --> 00:48:07,039
an interesting juxtaposition between Ben Shepperd and Benedict Matheren.

1131
00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 3: Ben Sheppard's very.

1132
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: Easy to plug into a scheme. He's going to keep

1133
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,639
the ball moving, He's going to continue advantages. He's going

1134
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,559
to crash really hard on offensive rebounds. That has you know,

1135
00:48:15,599 --> 00:48:17,079
he doesn't always come up with the rebound, but it

1136
00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:19,599
does have effects on on their defense headed the other

1137
00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:21,960
way and things that they want to do there. But

1138
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:24,119
there is a stat that I think is pree telling

1139
00:48:24,159 --> 00:48:26,199
and that he almost had more passes out of the

1140
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,880
corners than shots from the corners. So like he'll he'll

1141
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,000
catch a skip pass and the pacers very much want

1142
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,960
to trigger the extra pass out of skip passes, but

1143
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,480
he doesn't always you know, read that X out rotation

1144
00:48:36,559 --> 00:48:38,320
and know when he should put up a shot. So

1145
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,880
he's so intent on playing within the team scheme and

1146
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,039
playing for his teammates that he doesn't always rightfully look

1147
00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:47,559
for his own shot. Whereas Ben you know, is going

1148
00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:49,719
to drive into a crowd come you know, hell or

1149
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,760
high water, and he doesn't always see those passing avenues.

1150
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,440
So each of them provide a little bit different thing,

1151
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,840
and definitely you have a place for both. But I

1152
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,000
think at my high end, you got to where Ben

1153
00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:02,760
Sheppard wanted to be. He'd be that type of a

1154
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,960
player that it's like, yeah, as a role player, I

1155
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,559
won in my rotation because potentially, maybe you know, he

1156
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:11,280
could be that facsimilar eventually of you know, being somebody

1157
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,599
who could goes to switch, also be able to defend

1158
00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:14,960
at the point of attack and do a lot of

1159
00:49:15,039 --> 00:49:17,119
little other quiet things, you know. Rick Carlisle said of

1160
00:49:17,199 --> 00:49:19,400
him that he starred in his role for them during

1161
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,719
the playoffs. He a big, always up for, big proponent

1162
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:23,400
of Ben Sheppard.

1163
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 4: Whenever you hear him talk about him.

1164
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,519
Speaker 1: I was listening to something earlier this summer. You were

1165
00:49:27,559 --> 00:49:29,280
on Knocked on Pacers with Tony East, and I think

1166
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,119
you said that the Pacers have a Jaris Walker sized

1167
00:49:33,159 --> 00:49:38,119
hole on the defensive end. Can Jaris Walker be based

1168
00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:40,239
off what you've seen or what you project forward what

1169
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,239
this team needs defensively?

1170
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that there was a lot

1171
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,320
of criticism that he wasn't in the rotation of the

1172
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:48,960
degree that he was, and I think that they were

1173
00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:52,119
trying to teach better habits and then threw no a

1174
00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:53,800
fall of his own. They traded for Obie Top, and

1175
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,280
they traded for Pascal Siakam, and now they're trying to

1176
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:57,880
make a position change for him where he's going to

1177
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,280
play more at the three and much too Walkers at it.

1178
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,679
He had a hitch in his shot at Summer League

1179
00:50:03,679 --> 00:50:05,440
a year ago. I think some of that had to

1180
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,119
do with the elbow, and then also he was leaning

1181
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:09,480
to his left on his release on like almost every shot.

1182
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,320
His three point shot really turned around in the G League.

1183
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,079
You could see that mechanically he had made strides there

1184
00:50:16,199 --> 00:50:18,800
very quickly, and the three fell for him at Summer

1185
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,079
League this year as well. So that makes it more

1186
00:50:21,119 --> 00:50:22,880
feasible to be playing him at the three, where there

1187
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,119
might be more opportunities for him. I do think it

1188
00:50:25,159 --> 00:50:28,119
was very telling this summer though, that you know, Gennaro

1189
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:30,559
Pargo talked about it. Rick Carlisle talked about it publicly

1190
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:32,079
on the radio that they were going to be looking

1191
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:35,679
for jarrifs, you know, high motor rebounding, being able to

1192
00:50:35,679 --> 00:50:38,199
take on a defensive matchup conditioning. It wasn't going to

1193
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:39,800
be about, you know, how many points he scored or

1194
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,800
how many fancy plays he made. It was going to

1195
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,000
be looking about stuff there and that you know, you're

1196
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,199
also seeing like Pascal Siakam. And I'm not saying there

1197
00:50:46,199 --> 00:50:48,760
was a tent behind this from Pascal, but Pascal working

1198
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,840
with him at his home in Orlando and kind of

1199
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,519
recording and talking about like, you know, to all the

1200
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:55,400
young players, if you get sent down to the G League,

1201
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,199
show them why you don't believe in the G League.

1202
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,280
If you're playing in garbage time, you've got to play

1203
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,320
hard during car which time to prove why you should

1204
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,280
be in there during regular time, because if you're not

1205
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,119
doing it, then how are they going to trust you?

1206
00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:08,199
You know, in LA game situation for you to be

1207
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,639
out there and to hear Rick talk about it that

1208
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:12,840
there was kind of an expectation from Jaris that you know,

1209
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,079
he was going to play, and the fact that those

1210
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:18,320
things were being said publicly kind of raised my antenna

1211
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:19,760
a little bit because when you're willing to go on

1212
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,760
the record with some of those things on the on

1213
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,639
the radio, and then some of them were still showing

1214
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,960
up in Summer League when Jarris is on the margin

1215
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,960
of the rotation, like he made he had good rebounding

1216
00:51:29,039 --> 00:51:31,280
numbers in game five, but also some of the same

1217
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,480
stuff was showing up where you know he's ducking under

1218
00:51:33,519 --> 00:51:36,519
a total action. There's one play where in transition you

1219
00:51:36,519 --> 00:51:39,320
know he's reaching, he's doing stuff with his hands more

1220
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,280
than so than sliding latterly, and then telling Lee on

1221
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,480
the very next possession he's picking up full court and

1222
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:46,840
actually changing the direction of the ball a few times.

1223
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,599
So his body of work to this point hasn't necessarily

1224
00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:53,480
reflected his body size. There was also some interesting like

1225
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:55,880
matchup stuff going on where like he was picking up

1226
00:51:56,039 --> 00:51:58,679
Rob Dillingham at the point of attack where Ben Sheppard

1227
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,119
was a low man, kind of like testing his ability

1228
00:52:01,119 --> 00:52:03,920
to be sticking with guards and seeing how he would

1229
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,079
handle switching. I think he's kind of like Pascal. He's

1230
00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:08,159
better at switching out to the ball and lake clock

1231
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,840
situations and potentially chasing over screens. He's a bigger body too,

1232
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,119
but I think he's going to have more proof of

1233
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:17,079
product to show in preseason to think that, like I said,

1234
00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:19,760
that he would automatically be pushing Ben Sheppard out of

1235
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,559
the rotation despite the fact that like.

1236
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 3: He is a player that.

1237
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: If he could dial up like I don't want to

1238
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,480
necessarily say the word effort, but for lack of better terms,

1239
00:52:29,679 --> 00:52:32,599
you know, the high motor, the conditioning aspect of it,

1240
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,920
that could potentially, you know, rectify some of their problems

1241
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,760
out there. But where necessarily are the minute's going to

1242
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,440
come from? Is the thing for him?

1243
00:52:41,119 --> 00:52:43,079
Speaker 1: Should there be a concern at all about what he

1244
00:52:43,639 --> 00:52:45,880
becomes or is able to do offensively if they kind

1245
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,000
of view him as the day Facto three where you

1246
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,320
already mentioned just the improved jump shot, and he took

1247
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:52,599
on a permanent basis, way more threes than I would

1248
00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:53,920
have thought as a rookie. I know he didn't play

1249
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,000
it ton, but almost six per thirty six I never

1250
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,559
would have I would have smashed the under on that

1251
00:52:57,599 --> 00:52:59,840
if he gave me that. But like, if you're going

1252
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:01,760
to be in that role some of the stuff that

1253
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,440
he does best, like the passing, if the ball is

1254
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,920
not gonna be in his hands, how valuable is that?

1255
00:53:07,079 --> 00:53:08,920
Is there a way for them to unlock any of

1256
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:10,920
that when he's playing the three, or to even help

1257
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,480
unlock more rim pressure because he did not get to

1258
00:53:13,519 --> 00:53:17,360
the basket a ton last year, Like what does that like? Again?

1259
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,719
Just the initial question, just like is there any concern

1260
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,920
about what does he become offensively if he is viewed

1261
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,400
as I don't eve want to call him a three,

1262
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,559
but more of a wing who's gonna play in a

1263
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:27,400
lot of lineups where there were maybe two or three

1264
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,519
ball handlers in front of him in the pecking order.

1265
00:53:30,079 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the thing.

1266
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,559
Speaker 2: Like Summer League, there was probably two more too much

1267
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:35,559
point jarrifs for my liking, And in part that I

1268
00:53:35,559 --> 00:53:37,880
had to do with the construction of the roster. Quinton

1269
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,639
Jackson's like a dynamic slashing guard and Tristan Newton really

1270
00:53:41,639 --> 00:53:44,719
had to adapt from Yukon's playbook to playing the more

1271
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,599
you know, processing on the fly style that the Pacers

1272
00:53:47,639 --> 00:53:49,039
made that put the all ball in the hands of

1273
00:53:49,119 --> 00:53:50,880
Jaris more often, just to have a lot of lead

1274
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,039
playmakers on that roster, as handle wasn't really taking him anywhere,

1275
00:53:55,119 --> 00:53:57,000
and at times when he was running like high pick

1276
00:53:57,039 --> 00:53:59,440
and rolls, he wasn't necessarily making the right reads with

1277
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,239
the tag, and I think he did end up finishing

1278
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,079
with more turnovers than assists. He got to the ratio

1279
00:54:04,159 --> 00:54:06,639
of shots at the rim versus the runners was better

1280
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,519
in Summer League than what it was in the half

1281
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:10,639
court with the G League and with the Pacers, so

1282
00:54:11,199 --> 00:54:13,719
he didn't always he didn't finish particularly well on layups

1283
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,039
when he got there, but he was getting there more often,

1284
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:18,360
which is something. And I know that Pascal was kind

1285
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,159
of working with him on certain moves to be making

1286
00:54:21,159 --> 00:54:23,280
in the post, so he's not relying on the fadeaways

1287
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,320
quite as much, and I think that's that's something that

1288
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:31,159
would matter. But overall to his role, I feel better

1289
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,440
about him playing the wing, like you said, than I

1290
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,280
would have a year ago, but I didn't get to

1291
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,639
see him do that many wing things, like some of

1292
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:39,559
the stuff like That's why I think preseason is still

1293
00:54:39,559 --> 00:54:41,119
gonna be really valuable for him because I want to

1294
00:54:41,119 --> 00:54:43,800
see him do some of that with Tyrese or Andrew

1295
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,039
or TJ on the floor.

1296
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 3: Where like you can put him at the wing, you

1297
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:47,280
can run a pick.

1298
00:54:47,159 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 2: And roll between you know, Tyres and Miles and maybe

1299
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,840
if Tyresee is getting blitzed, you can throw it to Jaris.

1300
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,360
And he has excellent soft touch. He can throw off

1301
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,920
hand floaters where he can short the role and enter

1302
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,960
that pass to the big and being that type of

1303
00:55:00,039 --> 00:55:02,519
a connective passer in that way rather than having to

1304
00:55:02,519 --> 00:55:04,960
be a lead initiator. I don't know what it is, because,

1305
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:06,719
like you know, the roster in the G League wasn't

1306
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,719
really set up for him to necessarily have that role

1307
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,239
or even to be playing at the four all the

1308
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:11,519
time either. He had to do a lot of ball

1309
00:55:11,519 --> 00:55:13,840
handling there too. It's almost like he plays with more

1310
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,440
pepinist step when he gets to do it. So sometimes

1311
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,079
I wonder if they're like at Summer League, allowing him

1312
00:55:19,119 --> 00:55:21,159
to do some of that to try to, you know,

1313
00:55:21,559 --> 00:55:24,119
potentially coax some of the other stuff that they want

1314
00:55:24,159 --> 00:55:26,679
to see. For lack of better terms, but like I

1315
00:55:26,679 --> 00:55:29,000
would like to see less of the pick and roll

1316
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,400
ball handling, especially given the roster construction that they have

1317
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,760
and just get to observe him more in Summer league

1318
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,599
see what progress the defense continues to make. You know,

1319
00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:39,760
he did a three week training regimen with Jim Boyle

1320
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,159
and headed into Summer League, and he continue to make

1321
00:55:42,159 --> 00:55:44,480
conditioning progress. And one other thing that I will say

1322
00:55:44,559 --> 00:55:47,039
is much like Pascal, the scheme that Jari's played in

1323
00:55:47,199 --> 00:55:51,159
Houston was a really big adjustment with pre rotations, very

1324
00:55:51,159 --> 00:55:54,119
aggressive ball screen coverages versus playing with the Pacers where

1325
00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:56,559
they aim to not be overzealous with the low man

1326
00:55:56,599 --> 00:55:59,039
at all. They were staying home a lot more often

1327
00:55:59,119 --> 00:56:01,079
and what that was called for him to do. So

1328
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,599
as he continues to have another full training camp, we'll

1329
00:56:03,639 --> 00:56:05,360
see where he's at at the end of preseason. I

1330
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,800
still just I'm not entirely sure where his role is

1331
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,519
going to be coming out of Summer League. I think

1332
00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:14,599
I needed to see more defensively for me to pencil

1333
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:17,559
him in as a guaranteed, you know, tenth man right

1334
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:18,159
off the bat.

1335
00:56:18,519 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: Any early impressions or strong thoughts on Johnny Furfey.

1336
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:26,679
Speaker 2: Johnny Furfey is somebody that like kind of the theme

1337
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,159
I felt like for the Pacers this offseason is you know,

1338
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,079
continuity for one, but they also continue to build out

1339
00:56:32,079 --> 00:56:35,440
their strengths necessarily than addressing their weaknesses. There was times

1340
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,400
where he held up better defensively when he got targeted

1341
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,559
in the game against Denver late than I expected him to.

1342
00:56:41,119 --> 00:56:43,360
He uses his linked Okay, that being said, there were

1343
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,280
times where he was giving up mismatches under the rim

1344
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,880
and they just didn't have the ball handlers to enter

1345
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:49,880
it there where he was really getting buried. And you know,

1346
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,760
he's a teenager, so adding strength to his frame is

1347
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,239
going to be something, and I think it kind of

1348
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,400
behooves the Pacers because there was clear ways that he

1349
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,840
would fit into their offense. You know, his athleticism. Obi

1350
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,960
was the first player in team history to make one

1351
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,000
hundred threes and have one hundred completed dunks in the

1352
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,039
same season. If Johnny Furfy is somebody that like his

1353
00:57:10,119 --> 00:57:13,239
athleticism off two feet and what they were running lob

1354
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,719
sets for him. And also just you know, more of

1355
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:17,400
his threes not really above the break. A lot of

1356
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,480
them were stands still in the corners at Kansas and

1357
00:57:19,519 --> 00:57:21,800
somewhat at Summer League. But I can see really easy

1358
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,280
ways that he can plug in and fit with what

1359
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:24,960
they do. I don't think the opportunities are going to

1360
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:26,760
be there for him this year, but that's kind of okay,

1361
00:57:27,079 --> 00:57:29,079
you know, give him a year of strength training, let

1362
00:57:29,119 --> 00:57:30,679
him get their reps in the G League, and see

1363
00:57:30,679 --> 00:57:32,960
where things are in a year. So the pick makes

1364
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,840
sense given the style of play. He's very dynamic in transition.

1365
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,000
That showed up in Summer league as well. But I

1366
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:40,559
don't think that there's necessarily going to be a spot

1367
00:57:40,559 --> 00:57:43,960
for him unless there's you know, considerable injury stuff that

1368
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,119
they have to weather next year.

1369
00:57:45,239 --> 00:57:48,199
Speaker 1: What should we expect from the odd be fascinated by

1370
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,400
what the secondary from court rotation is going to be

1371
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,199
for this team. Do we just pencil in, all right,

1372
00:57:52,239 --> 00:57:54,039
it's going to be Isaiah Jackson and Obi top and

1373
00:57:54,039 --> 00:57:56,159
is just soaking up those minutes. Or do we see

1374
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,159
more of Obi Topping at the five or maybe even

1375
00:57:58,159 --> 00:58:01,199
more of Siakham as the low big without Obie Toppings

1376
00:58:01,199 --> 00:58:03,880
where that would allow Jaris to slide up to the four,

1377
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:07,320
where maybe he might make more sense defensively or offensively.

1378
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,280
Just what do you kind of make of that? You know, again,

1379
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,639
without having seen games from this coming season.

1380
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 2: My expectation given what the coaching staff said last year,

1381
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:17,840
is that it will be more of the same this

1382
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,360
year and that people are going to compete for spots. So,

1383
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,440
you know, Isaiah Jackson they had under team control. Jalen

1384
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,320
Smith did end up leaving in free agency, but at

1385
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,639
the beginning of the year, Jalen Smith had won the

1386
00:58:27,679 --> 00:58:30,559
backup five position. He had, you know, some struggles and

1387
00:58:30,599 --> 00:58:32,719
there was reasons why they went to Isaiah in the playoffs,

1388
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,840
but they let it be who won the minutes and

1389
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,360
that's who they played. So I think it'll be between

1390
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,159
you know, Isaiah Jackson and James Wiseman during training camp,

1391
00:58:40,199 --> 00:58:43,480
see what James Wiseman can bring to them in terms

1392
00:58:43,519 --> 00:58:45,599
of which one of them is the backup big and

1393
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:47,559
then it will likely be matchup dependent and made a

1394
00:58:47,599 --> 00:58:49,199
lot of sense in the Bucks series for them to

1395
00:58:49,199 --> 00:58:51,679
now be playing Isaiah or Jalen. The Bucks were playing

1396
00:58:51,719 --> 00:58:55,119
smaller with Danilo Gallinaure and with Bobby Portis doing stuff

1397
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,320
and spread lineups, so they were just like, you know what,

1398
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:58,719
we're going to go small to and we're going to

1399
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,199
outrun you because we're not you know, we're not necessarily

1400
00:59:01,239 --> 00:59:03,039
getting a lot of stops trying to fend in space,

1401
00:59:03,079 --> 00:59:04,559
so that's what we'll go to. Then you saw in

1402
00:59:04,599 --> 00:59:08,079
the next round they were playing bigger sometimes with Isaiah,

1403
00:59:08,119 --> 00:59:11,119
Pascal and Obi out there all at the same time.

1404
00:59:11,159 --> 00:59:12,760
So I think I would expect it to be very

1405
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,639
fluid in terms of which way they go with Weather

1406
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,800
playing big. And when I say big, I don't think

1407
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,360
they're going to play two centers at the same time,

1408
00:59:18,639 --> 00:59:21,199
but big in terms of like maybe Pascal or jaris

1409
00:59:21,239 --> 00:59:24,599
playing at the three and giving them more size at

1410
00:59:24,599 --> 00:59:27,199
the two forward positions, or if they're willing to go

1411
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,440
really small with you know, Obi and Pascal out there.

1412
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: Are you ready to enter the cookie cutter portion of

1413
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:33,400
this year's podcast?

1414
00:59:33,639 --> 00:59:34,079
Speaker 3: Of course?

1415
00:59:34,159 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 2: Of course this is the part I prepared for in advance.

1416
00:59:37,719 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: What is is or is there anything about this team

1417
00:59:40,719 --> 00:59:43,159
that is flying under the radar not receiving enough attention

1418
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,880
that you think needs to be discussed? You know?

1419
00:59:47,159 --> 00:59:49,639
Speaker 2: I mean, I also use some cookie cutter cliches here,

1420
00:59:49,679 --> 00:59:51,199
but I mean I do think that there is something

1421
00:59:51,199 --> 00:59:53,920
to continuity and that there's been a whole lot of

1422
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,679
wholesomeness going on around the Pacers this summer, like the

1423
00:59:56,719 --> 00:59:59,880
fact that that entire team showed up to watch Tyres

1424
01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:03,000
and Andrew Nemhard in Las Vegas. The fact that they're

1425
01:00:03,039 --> 01:00:06,159
all gathered this many weeks in advance at Pascal's house

1426
01:00:07,119 --> 01:00:09,800
that they you know, there is some out of motivation there.

1427
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:11,599
Because one thing that I would like to say, I

1428
01:00:11,639 --> 01:00:13,719
don't want to relitigate the playoff run again. But the

1429
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:20,800
Pacers don't have as many conflicting goals to manage next

1430
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,719
season as some of the other teams in the East two.

1431
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,599
And that doesn't necessarily mean that the Pacers are going

1432
01:00:24,639 --> 01:00:26,360
to be a better team, but it means in the

1433
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,800
regular season, like when you look at Cleveland, for instance,

1434
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,320
I know you already did the Cleveland look ahead, but

1435
01:00:31,559 --> 01:00:34,639
justin I feel like, you know, Kenny Atkinson's job is

1436
01:00:34,679 --> 01:00:37,599
really to raise the ceiling of that offense. So you

1437
01:00:37,679 --> 01:00:39,960
may have to do some things during the regular season

1438
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,360
for the sake of the playoffs that may not lead

1439
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,559
to a night to night win, but might pay dividends

1440
01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:46,800
for you later. Same with the Milwaukee Bucks. They can't

1441
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,960
get to the playoffs again and not have Damian Lillard

1442
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,360
and Yannas Santa Tookoompo in the playoffs. They're going to

1443
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,199
need to manage that throughout the season. The Pacers play

1444
01:00:54,239 --> 01:00:57,119
a very devastating style of basketball in the regular season,

1445
01:00:57,119 --> 01:00:59,639
where they again they pressed on more than four hundred

1446
01:00:59,639 --> 01:01:02,119
possession in the playoffs, and that was more than any

1447
01:01:02,119 --> 01:01:05,599
team in Synergy's fifteen year database. So if you're facing

1448
01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:09,400
full court pressure, which they seem very committed to, you're

1449
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,920
facing full court pressure, you're facing the pressure that they

1450
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:14,239
and that full court pressure that they're playing on defense

1451
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,639
feeds into their offensive identity too. You're facing them, you know,

1452
01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:19,960
being one of the fastest teams in the NBA in

1453
01:01:20,039 --> 01:01:22,280
terms of average time to shoot. They're gonna play deep,

1454
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,039
They're not going to play their top guys the heavy,

1455
01:01:24,079 --> 01:01:26,920
heavy minutes that some of the other teams do. That's

1456
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:28,480
a lot of things that I don't think necessarily be

1457
01:01:28,559 --> 01:01:32,079
considered when people are paging how good this team could

1458
01:01:32,119 --> 01:01:34,440
be because they're not. I think some of it's getting

1459
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,079
too complated with the playoffs, like when you're just looking

1460
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:39,360
at can they compete for home court advantage? Given the

1461
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,320
other teams in the East made very splashy moves, I think,

1462
01:01:42,679 --> 01:01:44,000
is it guaranteed that they'll be a.

1463
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:44,599
Speaker 3: Top four team?

1464
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: No?

1465
01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: But can they compete for one of those seeds. Yeah,

1466
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:47,440
I definitely think so.

1467
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like their style is grading in a way

1468
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:54,840
too on the other team just because they're so And

1469
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,039
it's as you mentioned before, it's not just transition. It's

1470
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,360
even if it's like if it's semi transition, just in

1471
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,199
the half court are so quick that it just grades

1472
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,679
on defenses. And that's a really I don't I did

1473
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,400
not give that enough thought, but that's it does feel

1474
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,679
like it's a recipe to just win a bunch of

1475
01:02:09,719 --> 01:02:12,239
regular season games, maybe more than you would expect, even

1476
01:02:12,239 --> 01:02:14,000
if you don't believe that this is a top end

1477
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:15,280
postseason team.

1478
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 2: Like I said, even then, the fact that like I

1479
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,559
feel like they had some degree of proof of concept

1480
01:02:20,639 --> 01:02:22,440
in that you know, they still had one hundred and

1481
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,360
twenty offensive rating, They still maintained their identity, and that

1482
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:26,519
was a big thing that I was going to be

1483
01:02:26,559 --> 01:02:28,679
watching in the playoffs. Can they still play fast? Can

1484
01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:30,639
they still get in transition? And then pressing was a

1485
01:02:30,679 --> 01:02:32,920
big part of how they were able to artificially maintain

1486
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,079
that in ways that you know, we don't always see.

1487
01:02:35,079 --> 01:02:37,880
The cliche is the game slows down in the playoffs. Well,

1488
01:02:38,039 --> 01:02:39,960
it didn't necessarily for the Pacers. So the fact that

1489
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,960
they were able to maintain that, the fact that they

1490
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,119
were in the positive with Tyres and Pascalen Tyres really

1491
01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:49,320
wasn't himself after that injury in the regular season nor

1492
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,400
completely in the playoffs minus you know, I felt like

1493
01:02:51,719 --> 01:02:53,599
he was starting to get there right before he re

1494
01:02:53,639 --> 01:02:54,400
injured himself.

1495
01:02:55,199 --> 01:02:56,639
Speaker 3: I think that stuff bodes well in their.

1496
01:02:56,519 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 2: Favor, and I think that they're going to be highly motivated,

1497
01:02:58,440 --> 01:02:59,840
and I think on a night to night basis, let's

1498
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:00,920
get be a tough team to play.

1499
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,159
Speaker 1: I feel like Mott, I don't know if this is

1500
01:03:03,199 --> 01:03:05,079
under the radar, especially because you mentioned a couple of times.

1501
01:03:05,119 --> 01:03:07,440
My under the radar question for them is can they

1502
01:03:07,599 --> 01:03:11,480
like materially improve the defensive rebounding. We're like a big

1503
01:03:11,519 --> 01:03:13,760
part of what might boost their defenses if they could

1504
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:15,639
just end possessions after a misshot.

1505
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a huge thing, right because I will account

1506
01:03:19,679 --> 01:03:21,920
her and say they still rank twenty second in first

1507
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,559
chance defense. So it's kind of like the Oscar Tashiboy

1508
01:03:24,599 --> 01:03:26,760
conundrum fans last year or was like, just play Oscar.

1509
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,440
Their rebounding is terrible. It's like, Okay, but you as

1510
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,800
to manufacturer enough stops to actually get the rebound, like

1511
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,679
and Oscar wasn't necessarily enabling you to do that, especially

1512
01:03:36,679 --> 01:03:41,039
against spread lineups. So the defensive rebounding thing definitely. You know,

1513
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:42,719
Game five against the New York Knicks, they gave up

1514
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,880
twenty offensive rebounds. Isaiah Hergenstein had twelve on his own,

1515
01:03:46,559 --> 01:03:51,079
and you know, not exactly flattering that the Knicks played smaller,

1516
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,920
removed pressures Atua and started Duce McBride. They had a

1517
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,039
smaller starting lineup than the Pacers did, and the Pacers

1518
01:03:57,039 --> 01:03:59,000
still gave up that many rebounds and got a you know,

1519
01:03:59,079 --> 01:04:01,360
one of the enduring that I take with me from

1520
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,760
that playoffs is wide at the end of Game four,

1521
01:04:05,079 --> 01:04:08,320
Miles is cross matched out onto Jason Tatum. He had

1522
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,880
given up some self created threes to Tatum. Tatum, I

1523
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,079
think only made ten during the entire postseason run and

1524
01:04:13,119 --> 01:04:15,480
made two just in that game against the Pacers and

1525
01:04:15,519 --> 01:04:17,440
then also had some drives against Miles. So Aaron He's

1526
01:04:17,599 --> 01:04:20,039
was like, oh, you know, holy crap, Miles is on

1527
01:04:20,079 --> 01:04:22,519
an island with Jason Tatum and he goes switch to blitz,

1528
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:24,599
goes and blitzes that and as soon as he does,

1529
01:04:24,679 --> 01:04:26,360
then Andrew Memore is over there and it's a two

1530
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,280
on one, you know, on the offensive glass for the Celtics.

1531
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:31,599
Plus Miles has switched out to the perimeter, which means

1532
01:04:31,599 --> 01:04:33,199
You're big isn't under there to be able to get

1533
01:04:33,199 --> 01:04:35,480
the rebound, so they couldn't switch, And then if they

1534
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:37,920
have to commit two to the ball, they're even more

1535
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,800
vulnerable on the glass. So like this is another double

1536
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,480
edged sword. Because I've talked about like I would really

1537
01:04:42,559 --> 01:04:44,480
like to see them implement some more zone. I think

1538
01:04:44,559 --> 01:04:46,639
zone would be to their benefit. I have a wrinkle

1539
01:04:46,679 --> 01:04:48,039
in mind that I would like to see them use.

1540
01:04:48,079 --> 01:04:50,800
But when you play zone, your offensive, your defensive rebounding

1541
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:53,880
tends to get worse. So can they afford to you know,

1542
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:58,079
it's the opposite of the oscar if you maybe manufacture

1543
01:04:58,119 --> 01:05:01,199
some more stops, but can you get the rebound out

1544
01:05:01,199 --> 01:05:04,239
of that. That's something that they have to consider and balance.

1545
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,039
And that was in part why after the playoffs, Like

1546
01:05:06,559 --> 01:05:08,159
I think a lot of the stuff that Miles could

1547
01:05:08,159 --> 01:05:10,960
be criticized for in the past, he really you know,

1548
01:05:11,159 --> 01:05:14,199
pushed back against during the regular season, and then when

1549
01:05:14,199 --> 01:05:16,199
the playoffs happened, some of it, especially in that series

1550
01:05:16,199 --> 01:05:19,679
against Boston, what he did against certain switches against Derek White,

1551
01:05:19,719 --> 01:05:21,840
the fact that he had more turnovers. He led the

1552
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,400
team in turnovers, had more turnovers than three point attempts

1553
01:05:24,559 --> 01:05:26,239
in a series where at times he was defended by

1554
01:05:26,239 --> 01:05:29,159
Al Horford, and Drop wasn't necessarily picking and popping, kind

1555
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:31,880
of inserting himself in strange places, trying to post against

1556
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,320
Jason Tatum when Tatum was guarding him at the five

1557
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,440
with some of his cross matches. And then the fact

1558
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:38,360
that they really couldn't go to the switching scheme with

1559
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,599
him at the five, tried to go with Obi toppin

1560
01:05:40,639 --> 01:05:43,280
at the five, Obie gets targeted, Miles goes back in,

1561
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,280
and then you're seeing that rebounding issue. I had more

1562
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,360
questions about him after that series than I expected to

1563
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,360
have going into it, because I just thought, you know,

1564
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,639
Miles was you know, Tyres and Miles were the most

1565
01:05:53,639 --> 01:05:55,840
effective pick and roll combination in the NBA last year.

1566
01:05:56,079 --> 01:05:58,239
He did more aganst switches, he was hitting that mid

1567
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,079
range shot against the Blitz. Defensively, you know, he can

1568
01:06:01,159 --> 01:06:03,159
be an effectively seger and protector. Although I do think

1569
01:06:03,159 --> 01:06:05,639
he's shown some slippage there and the rebounding is what

1570
01:06:05,639 --> 01:06:07,760
the rebounding is. So that's something that they're going to

1571
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,239
have to consider as like you said, the next year

1572
01:06:10,239 --> 01:06:12,719
of Miles Turner being in a contract year and given

1573
01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:15,760
that they gave out a lot of contract extensions to

1574
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:16,960
several players this year.

1575
01:06:17,079 --> 01:06:21,599
Speaker 1: So yeah, look, we didn't really talk about Miles like specifically.

1576
01:06:21,599 --> 01:06:23,800
I know you've mentioned him a few times, but that

1577
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:25,599
I feel like that's going to become. It won't be

1578
01:06:25,679 --> 01:06:27,159
under the radar, but that's going to become. We got

1579
01:06:27,239 --> 01:06:30,239
like a year hiatus from like the Miles Turner rumors,

1580
01:06:30,239 --> 01:06:31,519
and now if it's like they're going to fire back

1581
01:06:31,559 --> 01:06:33,719
up again this coming season, yeah, I mean, I.

1582
01:06:33,639 --> 01:06:35,159
Speaker 2: Don't know how much they will, because I mean it

1583
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:36,639
is a special thing that this is going to be

1584
01:06:36,679 --> 01:06:38,280
his tenth year with the same team. A lot of

1585
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,440
players don't accomplish doing that, and like I want to

1586
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:43,519
make clear for fans that I really don't think that.

1587
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,760
You know, Kevin Pritchard and and Chad Ye Cannon and

1588
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,159
Ted wu were in a room and Kelly fross Coff

1589
01:06:49,159 --> 01:06:51,159
and we're like, oh, well, we would like to retain

1590
01:06:51,239 --> 01:06:53,719
TJ McConnell Andrew Nemore, and we didn't realize that this

1591
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,000
could potentially affect our ability to sign Miles Turner and

1592
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,920
Benedict Matheren later on, Like, I'm sure there's some planning

1593
01:07:00,119 --> 01:07:02,559
place for this in addition to them having contracts on

1594
01:07:02,599 --> 01:07:04,480
their books that you know, if they do want to

1595
01:07:04,719 --> 01:07:06,400
do a consolidation trade at some point.

1596
01:07:06,239 --> 01:07:07,559
Speaker 3: They need to be able to have those.

1597
01:07:08,159 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 2: And also just continuing to evaluate Miles on this roster,

1598
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,519
because there is the tiny piece in the back of

1599
01:07:12,519 --> 01:07:14,119
my head where I think to myself, like you can

1600
01:07:14,159 --> 01:07:16,440
see the numbers for Miles in the pick and roll

1601
01:07:16,599 --> 01:07:18,880
when you look at second spectrum of what he was

1602
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:22,199
doing as a screener before Rick and Tyrees got there,

1603
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:24,039
versus what he did as a screener when Rick and

1604
01:07:24,079 --> 01:07:26,440
Tyree's did, And like, that's no knock on him. Tyre's

1605
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:28,119
is a great pick and roll creator, so is t

1606
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,199
J McConnell. Andrew Nemar very good too. But like, can

1607
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:36,000
you get that boost out of another player if if

1608
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,559
you have that same arsenal of creation creation on ball

1609
01:07:41,119 --> 01:07:44,119
and is it worth it weathering some of the other things.

1610
01:07:44,159 --> 01:07:44,559
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1611
01:07:44,679 --> 01:07:47,039
Speaker 2: Maybe the better answer is fine players that you know,

1612
01:07:47,039 --> 01:07:48,920
there isn't an upgrade for Miles on the market.

1613
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 3: There isn't.

1614
01:07:49,679 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 2: I will admit, there's not one readily on the trade

1615
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,559
market that I know of who's available. There's not one

1616
01:07:54,599 --> 01:07:56,639
on the roster, And maybe you're just trying to better

1617
01:07:57,239 --> 01:08:00,000
support some of what we saw prop up for Miles.

1618
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:01,960
Then I should have pointed out Miles was dealing with

1619
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:03,760
a back injury in like Game four as well, and

1620
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:05,719
I'm sure limited to him to an extent, but those

1621
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,719
were other things that you saw throughout that series. So

1622
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,320
I don't know that that would necessarily be something that

1623
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,440
they do in season. I think with Miles and what

1624
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:15,679
they have there, that that's something that you'd probably be

1625
01:08:15,719 --> 01:08:17,600
looking at next summer.

1626
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: I actually think, and I tell people this all the time,

1627
01:08:22,399 --> 01:08:24,159
is that because you have the entire year to get

1628
01:08:24,159 --> 01:08:26,279
out of the luxury tax, that I would expect them

1629
01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:28,439
to resign them even if it takes them in and

1630
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,239
they will figure it out later. And I also think

1631
01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:32,640
you look at some of the you mentioned consolidation trade

1632
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,760
definitely or just you can now use the mid level

1633
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:38,880
exception as a trade exception obi top and I think

1634
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,119
will still slide into someone's mid level next year if

1635
01:08:41,119 --> 01:08:44,399
they need a clear salary for Miles Turner exactly, and

1636
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,359
I just think he's still too mission critical to what

1637
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:48,000
this team wants to do, and especially if you want

1638
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,840
to have a respectable defense. However, this team is fully healthy,

1639
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,119
this is the scenario you have to narrow down the

1640
01:08:54,199 --> 01:08:57,119
rotation to ten players. What is the top ten rotation?

1641
01:08:57,239 --> 01:08:59,800
It does feel like they have kind of just you know,

1642
01:09:00,119 --> 01:09:01,720
you could order them minutes differently, but it feels like

1643
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,079
they have nine locks for a top ten rotation.

1644
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that I would expect that

1645
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:08,399
the starting lineup is going to start out being the

1646
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:13,760
same still Andrew Tyrese, Aaron, Pascal and Miles and then

1647
01:09:14,199 --> 01:09:17,000
depending upon you know, what Ben does, maybe there's room

1648
01:09:17,039 --> 01:09:19,760
for Ben to assend if he really makes strides there.

1649
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,920
And like I said, for me, it would be looking

1650
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:25,079
at Aaron's spot, not necessarily Andrews because of the other

1651
01:09:25,119 --> 01:09:28,520
things that Andrew brings. But if not, then I think

1652
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:29,399
you're looking at the bench.

1653
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 3: TJ.

1654
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 2: Benedict Matheren, Obi Toppin, Isaiah Jackson is probably the big

1655
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:36,239
that I would lean to currently, and then you're looking

1656
01:09:36,239 --> 01:09:38,199
at if you're going to play ten deep either Ben

1657
01:09:38,239 --> 01:09:41,000
Sheppard or Jarris Walker, and currently I would think it

1658
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,520
would be Ben Shepard. But again I'm very open to

1659
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:46,239
seeing what Jaris does during preseason, and I hope, because

1660
01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:48,119
I do think that he can answer some of their

1661
01:09:48,159 --> 01:09:50,319
problems and balance out some of the issues they have there,

1662
01:09:50,359 --> 01:09:52,560
that we see some progress there from him.

1663
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: I know it's just to some extent matchup depending, but

1664
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:57,479
if you had to guess what their most used closing

1665
01:09:57,520 --> 01:09:59,960
lineup ends up being, is it just what you expect

1666
01:10:00,039 --> 01:10:02,680
their starting lineup to be, the version that has our

1667
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,640
Nie Smith in it instead of benecmather Yeah, I think they.

1668
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 2: Played one hundred They've played one hundred and sixty seven

1669
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,520
crunch time minutes, I believe with Tyreeves after a crying

1670
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,800
Pascal and about fifty of them were.

1671
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:14,600
Speaker 3: Just the starters.

1672
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,039
Speaker 2: I think that the flex piece could be mathering there

1673
01:10:18,039 --> 01:10:19,920
if Matherin's having, you know, a really good game. We

1674
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,359
saw them close games with him against the Milwaukee Bucks

1675
01:10:22,399 --> 01:10:25,079
last year. He's played fantastic play against the Bucks during

1676
01:10:25,079 --> 01:10:27,880
the regular season matchup depending, he.

1677
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:29,680
Speaker 1: Looked like the defensive player of the year that.

1678
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had some he had some good moments there

1679
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,319
for them. Defensively and on the glass. He's another person

1680
01:10:35,359 --> 01:10:37,640
that like maybe you address some of the defensive rebounding.

1681
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:39,840
There's times where he can look like he's embodied by,

1682
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,199
you know the spirit of Lance Stevenson when he's crashing

1683
01:10:42,279 --> 01:10:44,920
from the wings. And you know a lot of times

1684
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:47,039
the very good teams in the playoffs, you can see

1685
01:10:47,079 --> 01:10:50,039
like wing players tend to level up, like Paul George

1686
01:10:50,039 --> 01:10:51,680
did this for the Pacers in the playoffs. He would

1687
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:53,760
up his rebounding numbers, Andrew Wiggins what he did for

1688
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:56,399
the Golden State Warriors. You know, I have some hope

1689
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:58,920
that there is more of that within Benedict Matherin, and

1690
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,560
that could be something that you know, size for position wise,

1691
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,039
maybe he brings a little bit more up to as

1692
01:11:04,079 --> 01:11:05,960
well in certain lineups. So I would expect it to

1693
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:10,000
either be the starters or somebody subbing out in place

1694
01:11:10,039 --> 01:11:11,640
and ben going in in that group.

1695
01:11:12,119 --> 01:11:15,119
Speaker 1: Is there a weirdo, funky, offbeat lineup you would like

1696
01:11:15,159 --> 01:11:16,479
to see this team roll out?

1697
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So mine aren't necessarily funky. It's more so like

1698
01:11:20,279 --> 01:11:23,680
what I will learn from these groupings. So it's anytime

1699
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:28,399
that you play two of Jari's Passcalen Obie with Miles Turner.

1700
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:30,520
They did some of that against Phoenix because it allowed

1701
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,279
them to play Obi top and opposite of Grayson Allen.

1702
01:11:33,319 --> 01:11:37,159
Pascal could check Kevin Durrant, Miles obviously opposite of Nurkic.

1703
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,079
There's certain matchups where that's feasible for you, or if

1704
01:11:40,119 --> 01:11:41,800
you want to play Jaris at the three with either

1705
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:44,119
Passcal or Obi and Miles. I really want to see

1706
01:11:44,399 --> 01:11:47,119
can they play bigger at the forward positions than what

1707
01:11:47,159 --> 01:11:49,319
we've seen to this point. Last year, I think they

1708
01:11:49,319 --> 01:11:51,560
were a positive five point five, but that was only.

1709
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,119
Speaker 4: Sixty three minutes that they attempted to do that.

1710
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,199
Speaker 2: The next one for me is gond totinue to be

1711
01:11:56,359 --> 01:11:59,319
the small ball with Obi and pascalach just because it

1712
01:11:59,359 --> 01:12:01,720
was such a small sample size and they were very

1713
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:05,600
defendant on outscoring opponents. They did so, but their defensive

1714
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,039
rating was like one hundred and twenty.

1715
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,279
Speaker 4: Two during those minutes during the regular season.

1716
01:12:09,319 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 2: And then lastly, Tyres and Ben and Andrew playing together

1717
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,399
at the same time. To this point, Tyres and Ben

1718
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:17,720
on the floor just as a two man unit, they

1719
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,279
have not won those minutes. In Ben's rookie or sophomore season.

1720
01:12:22,159 --> 01:12:23,720
I still think that more. It's kind of the overall

1721
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:25,840
better fit just at the two next to Tyres. But

1722
01:12:26,319 --> 01:12:27,680
I'd like to see, you know, those are the two

1723
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,079
guys that they drafted. Ben was their highest draft pick,

1724
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:32,319
you know, in like three decades at the time when

1725
01:12:32,319 --> 01:12:35,039
they selected him. How successful can you be with all

1726
01:12:35,119 --> 01:12:36,680
three of them out there at the same time. So

1727
01:12:37,039 --> 01:12:38,920
mine are kind of more mission critical than they are

1728
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:40,800
funky lineups, but you always come up with the best

1729
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:42,880
ones to do. So I'm very curious to know what

1730
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:43,159
you have.

1731
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to find a way to get five

1732
01:12:46,079 --> 01:12:49,239
bigs on the court at once, maybe four. So let's

1733
01:12:49,239 --> 01:12:53,520
go Miles Turner, Siakam Jarvis Walker of course, then we'll

1734
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:56,560
go Johnny Furfey, and then because I care about defense,

1735
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:58,960
we could put Andrew m Hard instead of Tyre's Haliburton

1736
01:12:59,039 --> 01:12:59,840
in at the one.

1737
01:13:00,159 --> 01:13:03,239
Speaker 2: And I say, you might have to play TJ just

1738
01:13:03,319 --> 01:13:05,279
because TJ like is gonna be able to stir the

1739
01:13:05,359 --> 01:13:08,560
drink without necessarily having to have Like he makes sense

1740
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:11,840
of weird spacing, like only TJ could make sense of

1741
01:13:12,079 --> 01:13:15,680
TJ's spacing when TJ's off the ball, Like that's like

1742
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,079
his unique skill. So you literally, you know, might need

1743
01:13:18,159 --> 01:13:20,680
the flight of the bumblebee master to come out there

1744
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:21,439
and make sense.

1745
01:13:21,279 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 1: Of the Only problem with that is, I feel like

1746
01:13:24,239 --> 01:13:26,560
you would have fewer pathways to putting the ball in

1747
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,680
Jarvis Walker's hands while having three bigs around him if

1748
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:30,680
Andron m Hard isn't on the.

1749
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:33,720
Speaker 3: C I'm not sure that's the worst thing the worst.

1750
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,079
Speaker 1: So honestly, I won't be picky. You could put whoever

1751
01:13:36,079 --> 01:13:38,119
you wanted to one as long as the four quote unquote.

1752
01:13:38,159 --> 01:13:41,800
I know Jaris Walker and Furfey and even siakamarn't traditionally huge,

1753
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,239
but give me four bigs at once plus whoever the

1754
01:13:44,319 --> 01:13:46,439
fuck at the one, and I'll be content. As we

1755
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,319
record this on September the seventeenth, and this is one

1756
01:13:49,319 --> 01:13:51,039
of the rare ones that will be going up immediately

1757
01:13:51,079 --> 01:13:54,439
the day after Caitlin. Their win total is set at

1758
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:57,239
forty seven and a half. Would you take the over

1759
01:13:57,359 --> 01:13:58,199
of the under on that?

1760
01:14:00,079 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 2: You know last year, I was like, it was a

1761
01:14:02,119 --> 01:14:04,359
rare instance of me being very optimistic, and I was

1762
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:06,439
like telling most people that I talked about, I think

1763
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:08,720
they can get to forty four wins, even with me

1764
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,119
being like after a preseason, I was like, I'm kind

1765
01:14:11,119 --> 01:14:12,720
of nervous about this defense. I don't know what's going

1766
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,000
to happen, but I think they could get to forty four.

1767
01:14:15,039 --> 01:14:19,159
They exceeded even my optimistic expectations. I think that they

1768
01:14:19,199 --> 01:14:21,479
can take the over on forty seven because of the

1769
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:24,039
things that we were talking about during the regular season.

1770
01:14:24,079 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 3: I think they can get there.

1771
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 2: When Tyre's, Pascal and Miles were healthy, they posted a

1772
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,359
win rate of you know, zero point five to seven

1773
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:32,880
five they went nineteen and fourteen, So that's that's right

1774
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:35,000
on the bubble last year of being you know, in

1775
01:14:35,079 --> 01:14:38,119
the five to four hole. Forty seven wins, forty eight

1776
01:14:38,159 --> 01:14:40,960
wins gets you at home court advantage. Last year, other

1777
01:14:41,039 --> 01:14:45,039
teams in the East did get better, presumably in relation

1778
01:14:45,159 --> 01:14:45,720
to themselves.

1779
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:47,079
Speaker 3: But I think the Pacers can.

1780
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,079
Speaker 4: Take the over there essentially if they stay healthy.

1781
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 1: Where do you see them kind of stacking up relative

1782
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:55,079
to the rest of the East, Where I think the

1783
01:14:55,159 --> 01:15:00,600
discussion is mostly centered on Boston, New York, Philly, and Cleveland,

1784
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:02,760
and then Milwaukee is like, oh, we could see those

1785
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:04,920
teams finishing in any kind of order, or if you

1786
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,600
want a pencil, Boston for first place, which feels a

1787
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,600
little weird just giving them porzingis injury Horford's old and

1788
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:12,680
is this team gonna be as invested in the regular season?

1789
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,159
But whatever, If it's like those five teams are predominantly

1790
01:15:15,199 --> 01:15:18,279
the focus, then Indy and Miami and Orlando or mentions

1791
01:15:18,279 --> 01:15:19,840
like oh they could be frisky or INDI will be

1792
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:22,399
super fun. I guess that the five teams that are

1793
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:24,600
talked about the most in the East. Do you see

1794
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:27,720
a pathway to Indie kind of breaking into that mold

1795
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:29,640
and you were you already mentioned before like finishing with

1796
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:31,640
a home court advantage spot.

1797
01:15:32,319 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's potential.

1798
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:36,039
Speaker 2: I mean, you can't deny what the core for net

1799
01:15:36,199 --> 01:15:38,520
rating is for the Milwaukee Bucks. When Yannis and Chris

1800
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,520
Middleton and brook Lopez and Damian Lillard are out there,

1801
01:15:42,239 --> 01:15:44,800
that's very formidable. But I think that they're gonna have

1802
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:46,479
other things to balance, and I think that there also

1803
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:48,520
is a potential where it's just like at one point

1804
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:51,159
in time, there might just be too much wear and care,

1805
01:15:51,399 --> 01:15:53,720
Like I think brook Lopez's game is going to age well,

1806
01:15:54,239 --> 01:15:57,359
but that is a consideration, and I do think that

1807
01:15:57,399 --> 01:15:59,399
they're going to have other things that they like what

1808
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:03,399
seed the Milwaukee Bucks are doesn't really matter. They just

1809
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:05,199
need to get to the finish line and be healthy.

1810
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,039
That's what they needed against the Pacers in that playoff series.

1811
01:16:08,119 --> 01:16:09,800
And I think that there is other counters that they

1812
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,079
obviously would have made in addition to just you know,

1813
01:16:12,239 --> 01:16:15,439
having Jannis, who is arguably maybe the best player in

1814
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:18,680
the Eastern Conference. As far as the other teams, I

1815
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,560
think maybe the one. I think you could probably pencil

1816
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,039
the others as being more complete to a certain extent.

1817
01:16:25,119 --> 01:16:27,760
I'm very rock solid on Boston. I was rock solid

1818
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,239
on Boston last summer. I really liked the Knicks roster.

1819
01:16:31,279 --> 01:16:33,199
That was the opponent that I was most concerned about

1820
01:16:33,239 --> 01:16:35,279
playing the Pacers if they would have been at full strength,

1821
01:16:36,199 --> 01:16:38,439
just because of the rebounding element, and then also now

1822
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:40,800
they have even more defensive versatility. I knew that John

1823
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:42,880
Brunton was going to be a very tough matchup because

1824
01:16:43,199 --> 01:16:45,119
as good as Andrew Memoart is, he had one of

1825
01:16:45,159 --> 01:16:47,159
the lowest blow by rates in the NBA last year.

1826
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,039
You really have to have link to guard John Brunton

1827
01:16:50,079 --> 01:16:51,640
despite how small he is, because I am not a

1828
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,359
separation he creates. So I really like the Knicks there,

1829
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:57,560
Philadelphia I might be a little bit lower on than

1830
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,840
consensus I think in some way, and then Cleveland's probably

1831
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,319
the big one. Like I can be talked into all

1832
01:17:04,359 --> 01:17:06,520
those teams being better than the Pacers when everything's said

1833
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,039
and done, but I think Cleveland's gonna have to show

1834
01:17:09,119 --> 01:17:11,199
me something that their offensive ceiling can be higher than

1835
01:17:11,239 --> 01:17:12,560
what they've shown at this point. And I know that

1836
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:14,279
they had a lot to do with injuries last year,

1837
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:19,039
and Darius Garland wasn't himself half their roster, you know,

1838
01:17:19,239 --> 01:17:20,920
not necessarily playing at the end of things, but the

1839
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:22,720
fact that they couldn't crack one hundred points for one

1840
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:27,159
hundred possessions against that Orlando defense is something that matters.

1841
01:17:27,199 --> 01:17:30,239
And I do think that they have, like strangely, a

1842
01:17:30,359 --> 01:17:33,279
lot of specialists on that team, which is a good

1843
01:17:33,319 --> 01:17:35,399
thing to have, but there's also times where it's like,

1844
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:38,079
because they have so many specialists, their offense can become

1845
01:17:38,119 --> 01:17:40,359
somewhat predictable because so much of it does need to

1846
01:17:40,399 --> 01:17:43,640
be initiated by Garland or Mitchell, and then Mitchell can

1847
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:46,319
kind of I don't want to say tunnel vision, but

1848
01:17:46,399 --> 01:17:49,560
it becomes like he feels like he has to take

1849
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:51,960
all of that on because they don't have as many

1850
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,359
other playmakers and ways to initiate. And I think that's

1851
01:17:54,359 --> 01:17:56,319
why it's really gonna be important what Kenny Akinson does.

1852
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,439
Can they get more creation out of every mobile? Would

1853
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:00,920
they be more like to use him as a hub?

1854
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,159
Would they even? Do you know some inverted looks with him?

1855
01:18:03,399 --> 01:18:05,199
Some of those were successful in the playoffs, they just

1856
01:18:05,199 --> 01:18:09,800
didn't do very much of it. So can I say

1857
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:11,119
that the Pacers are going to be better than any

1858
01:18:11,119 --> 01:18:12,840
of those teams? No, But I do think that they can.

1859
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:15,079
They can compete for home court advantage. I think that

1860
01:18:15,159 --> 01:18:16,920
they're gonna have to show us something at the defensive

1861
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:18,239
end of the floor for me to see them as

1862
01:18:18,279 --> 01:18:22,760
like a true championship contender. But I don't know that

1863
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:25,560
I necessarily agree with putting them on the same tier

1864
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,560
with the Miami Heat and even the Magic to extend.

1865
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,720
Speaker 1: Well, I think that I'm like so out on the Heat,

1866
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,800
so they're in like their own tier below everybody else

1867
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:35,960
for me, Like they're closer to Atlanta and Charlotte for

1868
01:18:36,039 --> 01:18:39,239
me right now than Orlando or Indy. You are the

1869
01:18:39,279 --> 01:18:42,199
closest that someone's come to talking me down on Cleveland.

1870
01:18:42,239 --> 01:18:43,840
This season, because I might fuck around and pick them

1871
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:45,279
to win the East, Like I just I don't know

1872
01:18:45,319 --> 01:18:45,720
if I'm.

1873
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:48,359
Speaker 2: The defense is legit. The defense is definitely legit.

1874
01:18:49,159 --> 01:18:49,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1875
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 1: One thing I want to ask you what I'm having

1876
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,600
trouble is so the PACER's still have stuff that they

1877
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:56,800
could trade, Like the Pascal Siakam trade was a home

1878
01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:58,479
run in the sense that, like they only have one

1879
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,239
future first round pick that still needs that convey We know,

1880
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:03,319
we've talked a lot about how they could still use

1881
01:19:03,399 --> 01:19:05,840
that wing, and they're probably going to give a chance

1882
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,319
to see if it can be addressed or if they're

1883
01:19:07,359 --> 01:19:09,760
good enough with the current personnel. But do you think

1884
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:11,600
based off what they did last year? So they make

1885
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,079
the midseason trade, but then they also kind of focus

1886
01:19:14,159 --> 01:19:17,319
on talent retention this season also then by extension limit

1887
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:19,279
some of the pieces that they could trade that if

1888
01:19:19,279 --> 01:19:22,520
they are to kind of finagle the roster at all,

1889
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:24,800
like I'm talking about within the top seven or so

1890
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:27,920
of players, that it's more likely to happen over the offseason.

1891
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:31,319
Or is this a team that views itself urgently enough

1892
01:19:31,399 --> 01:19:33,560
that you could see them making them It doesn't even

1893
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:35,239
need to get into the players who's giving up, but

1894
01:19:35,319 --> 01:19:37,840
that they're on an urgent enough timeline where they're going

1895
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:41,479
to consider to make another swing in the middle of

1896
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:41,920
this year.

1897
01:19:42,239 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 2: I think the one thing that you can say about

1898
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:47,119
this front office is that they're both provent but opportunistic.

1899
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:50,159
So I think that they recognized last year that what

1900
01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:53,479
ty Rees was doing, you know, they've basically got to

1901
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,560
development years in one. They've said many times, like they

1902
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:58,520
talked about like they don't want to get intoxicated by

1903
01:19:58,520 --> 01:19:58,920
a mistake.

1904
01:19:59,079 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 3: By success. Nothing that they did last year is guaranteed.

1905
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:05,560
Speaker 2: This isn't linear if they were opportunistic in terms of

1906
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:07,319
what they did in the playoffs, but I think they

1907
01:20:07,399 --> 01:20:09,479
were watching Terri's early on. They saw what they did

1908
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,680
in the nd season tournament and both negative and positive

1909
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:14,600
light like we made it to the finals of this

1910
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,560
there's a very clear hole here. We can get Pascal,

1911
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:19,840
you know, by being patient and not trading for him

1912
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:22,520
over the offseason, which granted it just sounds like Pascal was,

1913
01:20:23,039 --> 01:20:26,319
you know, trying to limit what teams could potentially create

1914
01:20:26,399 --> 01:20:28,199
trade for him last offseason because he was in the

1915
01:20:28,239 --> 01:20:30,399
final year of his contract. But they got him in

1916
01:20:30,399 --> 01:20:32,680
the way that he did and the Pacers struck at

1917
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:35,119
the right moment. I think that that could still potentially

1918
01:20:35,159 --> 01:20:37,159
happen during the regular season this year. If they really

1919
01:20:37,239 --> 01:20:39,439
hit the ground running and this group looks like they're ready,

1920
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:41,960
I could see them being aggressive during the middle of

1921
01:20:42,039 --> 01:20:44,840
the year and it looks like, hey, we weren't quite

1922
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:48,439
ready yet. Maybe we did, maybe not necessarily a fluke,

1923
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:50,279
but maybe you know, some of it was just us

1924
01:20:50,359 --> 01:20:52,760
being opportunistic against injury health, and it's possible that they

1925
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,159
might be a little bit more patient. But I think overall,

1926
01:20:55,199 --> 01:20:56,600
if I was to say I have a hot take

1927
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:58,359
about this team, it's that the roster will not be

1928
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:00,399
the same at the end of the year. Is either

1929
01:21:00,399 --> 01:21:02,399
they're going to get significant development from a few of

1930
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:03,800
these guys on the roster that's going to make it

1931
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:05,479
so that they don't need to consider those traits, or

1932
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:07,960
I think that they will consider the trades because your

1933
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:10,199
timeline does have to adjust. I think the Pascal's game

1934
01:21:10,239 --> 01:21:13,359
is going to age well offensively. We've already seen some

1935
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:16,920
slippage defensively. But when you sign a player like that

1936
01:21:17,039 --> 01:21:18,640
and you haven't won a MAX deal in its four

1937
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:20,920
year contract, you have to be thinking when now so

1938
01:21:21,039 --> 01:21:23,199
if the opportunity presents itself to be aggressive, I think

1939
01:21:23,199 --> 01:21:23,840
that they will do it.

1940
01:21:25,359 --> 01:21:27,079
Speaker 1: I think that that's the right call. And it's actually

1941
01:21:27,119 --> 01:21:29,720
refreshing to hear someone like yourself who has that type

1942
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:31,880
of insight to say that they will be Is there

1943
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:34,880
anything else anyone else on this team? I didn't ask

1944
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:38,319
you any really scorching hot James Wiseman opinions that you'd

1945
01:21:38,399 --> 01:21:39,640
like to fire off before I let you go.

1946
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:42,760
Speaker 2: I will say this for James Wiseman. You know, his

1947
01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:45,359
feel can be very frustrating to watch. He's a very

1948
01:21:45,359 --> 01:21:47,840
odd relationship with a pound dribble. I don't like watching

1949
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:50,640
games where James Wiseman gets, you know, a veer switch

1950
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:53,479
against TJ. McConnell, goes to a fade away rather than

1951
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:58,239
trying to get him under the basket. But in Golden State,

1952
01:21:58,399 --> 01:22:00,840
Golden State plays a very red, big not a lot

1953
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:03,399
of pick and roll offense by comparison to other teams

1954
01:22:03,399 --> 01:22:08,199
in the league. Detroit's play context and environment is what

1955
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:11,079
Detroit's play context in environment was last year. And he

1956
01:22:11,159 --> 01:22:12,920
comes and plays with the Pacers, you know, one of

1957
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,359
the most efficient pick and roll teams in the league.

1958
01:22:15,399 --> 01:22:16,960
Like I said, many times. He's a player needs to

1959
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:18,399
be spoon fed, and the Pacers have a lot of

1960
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:23,399
silver spirits. I think it's entirely possible that James Wiseman

1961
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:27,079
may not help the Pacers as much as they help him,

1962
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:29,960
But if either side helps the other, then it was

1963
01:22:30,079 --> 01:22:33,119
worth the veteran minimum and the flyer. I don't think

1964
01:22:33,159 --> 01:22:35,319
he necessarily addresses things. He only switched on like five

1965
01:22:35,319 --> 01:22:36,920
percent of his screens last year. He's a guy who

1966
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,119
needs to play, and Drop needs to play with somebody

1967
01:22:39,199 --> 01:22:41,600
in hard rearview pursuit, and if Ben Shepherd isn't out there,

1968
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:43,840
I'm not sure that beneedtict Matheren is necessarily going to

1969
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:46,359
be a great defensive pick and roll partner for him.

1970
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:49,399
But I think offensively there is some stuff there. Defensively,

1971
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:50,720
you know he's going to go from a team that

1972
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:52,600
was bottom five and pick and roll defense to a

1973
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:54,439
team that was bottom five and pick and roll defense.

1974
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:57,840
So I don't know that he necessarily answers those questions,

1975
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:00,880
but you know he gives them out size for position

1976
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:02,840
at the center spot at a depth and you know

1977
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:05,439
there's potential that you could push, you know, Isaiah Jackson

1978
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:08,119
in training camp and that's all for the better for

1979
01:23:08,279 --> 01:23:10,600
them and that in that particular span and seeing.

1980
01:23:10,319 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 1: What else you can do.

1981
01:23:11,159 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 2: So if if the Pagers help him improve, then I

1982
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:15,399
think it was worth the deal for sure.

1983
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,159
Speaker 1: Kaitlin, this was wonderful as always. You were able just

1984
01:23:18,199 --> 01:23:20,680
to tell our listeners slash viewers where they can find

1985
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:22,640
you and all the fantastic work.

1986
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:22,840
Speaker 4: That you do.

1987
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:26,319
Speaker 2: Right So, my Twitter handle is at C two Underscore Cooper.

1988
01:23:26,319 --> 01:23:28,840
If you're watching on YouTube, it is there, and then

1989
01:23:29,159 --> 01:23:31,840
if you go there, my link to Patreon is there

1990
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:34,600
at his patreon dot com slash basketball. She wrote, I

1991
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:37,479
still have two more summer projects to release. By the

1992
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:39,520
time you're listening to this, one of them may already

1993
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:42,359
be out. I did some extended ones where, like I mentioned,

1994
01:23:42,399 --> 01:23:44,159
I wrote about, you know, the different ways that the

1995
01:23:44,239 --> 01:23:47,359
Pacers keep Pascal Siakam posted or else that might go

1996
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:47,880
next year.

1997
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:48,560
Speaker 3: I wrote like.

1998
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 2: Something pretty nerdy about time management in the way that

1999
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:53,680
the Patris kind of play three D chess with two

2000
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:58,000
for ones. Some other stuff can just like basketball curiosities,

2001
01:23:58,119 --> 01:23:59,479
is the way I would term some of the pieces

2002
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,680
that I've been just things that I've noticed, things where

2003
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:04,880
the game might be going things that teams might be

2004
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:06,640
able to implement. That's kind of what these last two

2005
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:09,000
pieces are going to be headed into training camps, so

2006
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:11,520
hopefully people like those. And then I also want to

2007
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:13,399
throw in there just as a closing statement that, like,

2008
01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:15,600
I was not aware of that hardwood knocks. I don't know,

2009
01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:18,119
I missed it, but they have T shirts before I

2010
01:24:18,199 --> 01:24:20,279
have done here, I ordered one of those. I'm pretty

2011
01:24:20,279 --> 01:24:24,279
excited about that. People should join me. I also think that,

2012
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:26,640
like if you've come to this show because you for

2013
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:29,079
some reason wanted to just hear me talk about the pacers.

2014
01:24:29,159 --> 01:24:31,520
Dan's one of the best people. I truly believe that

2015
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,279
at doing these preview points, the depth that he came

2016
01:24:34,399 --> 01:24:37,479
up with for this outline like these pushed me to

2017
01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:40,119
be able to provide intelligent answers, and like the fact

2018
01:24:40,159 --> 01:24:43,039
that he can do this for thirty teams incredibly impressive.

2019
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:45,600
I've said it before, like I'm not somebody who really

2020
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:49,720
delves into like ranking pieces and some of the other

2021
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:51,800
stuff that he does with fake like fake trades and

2022
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:54,840
other things. But I read his I read his because

2023
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:56,520
the quality of the writing is that good, and I

2024
01:24:56,640 --> 01:25:00,000
enjoy the blurbs, so follow his work, follow Hardwood Knocks,

2025
01:25:00,039 --> 01:25:01,479
and continue listening to the podcast.

2026
01:25:02,039 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what your bleach reports. Never even asked

2027
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:05,359
me to do a fake trade article, so I have

2028
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:08,039
no idea what you're actually talking about. You're making me

2029
01:25:08,119 --> 01:25:10,399
blush those kinds of words of mega appreciated anyone who

2030
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:12,840
has not subscribed to basketball. She wrote, the links will

2031
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:15,479
be in our podcast YouTube description. As always, I say

2032
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:17,560
it all the time, even when she's on the podcast.

2033
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:21,039
Nobody does this better than Caitlin. She is a superhero

2034
01:25:21,159 --> 01:25:23,439
when it comes to content creation for basketball in general.

2035
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:26,159
So follow her subscribe to her if you do not already.

2036
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:28,159
As you know by now though, I will be pesturing

2037
01:25:28,199 --> 01:25:29,840
you again down the line. But thank you as always

2038
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:32,439
bringing me so much of your time and all your insight,

2039
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:34,000
and I will talk to you soon.

2040
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:35,119
Speaker 2: Thank John.