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Speaker 7: You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them.
Speaker 4: Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 7: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 7: and infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with
Speaker 7: your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. From the outside looking in, Jennifer Pan seemed
Speaker 4: like a model daughter living a perfect life, the ideal child,
Speaker 4: the one her immigrant parents saw, was studying to become
Speaker 4: a pharmacist at the University of Toronto. But there was
Speaker 4: a dark, deceptive side to the angelic young woman. In reality,
Speaker 4: Jennifer spent her days in the arms of her high
Speaker 4: school sweetheart Daniel. In an attempt to lead the life
Speaker 4: she dreamed of. She would do almost anything, lie about
Speaker 4: her whereabouts, forge school documents, and invent fake jobs in
Speaker 4: a fictitious apartment. For many years she led this double life,
Speaker 4: but when her father discovered her web of lies, his
Speaker 4: ultimatum was severe, and so too was her revenge, a
Speaker 4: plan that culminated in cold blooded murder, and it almost work,
Speaker 4: except for one bad shot. The story of Jennifer Pan
Speaker 4: is one of an all consuming love and devious betrayal
Speaker 4: that led to a cold hearted plan hatched by a
Speaker 4: group of youths who thought that he could pull off
Speaker 4: the perfect crime. The book that we were featuring this
Speaker 4: evening is a Dead Daughter's Deadly the Jennifer Pans Story
Speaker 4: with my special guest journalist and author Jeremy Grimaldi. Welcome
Speaker 4: to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing
Speaker 4: to this interview. Jeremy Grimaldi.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 4: Dan, Thank you very much. Congratulations on a very very
Speaker 4: interesting story. One of my favorite questions, and I'm always curious,
Speaker 4: tell us and tell our audience how you came to
Speaker 4: be this author, why this story was important to you,
Speaker 4: How you came to this story, A Daughter's Deadly Deception.
Speaker 8: I'm a I'm a big faith fatalist. Well, I guess
Speaker 8: fatalist is the right word. I'm a big believer in fate,
Speaker 8: and fate brought me to this story. I became a
Speaker 8: crime reporter and years after the murder was committed and
Speaker 8: the trial started. Four years after the murder was committed,
Speaker 8: and I happened to be the crime reporter in Markham
Speaker 8: where it occurred. When it began, I was the go
Speaker 8: to reporter. Turned out, it was at a time when
Speaker 8: a lot of newspapers were cutting back on staff, so
Speaker 8: I became the sort of one and only to cover
Speaker 8: the entire trial. It was a ten month trial, and
Speaker 8: by the end it was so fascinating and so layered
Speaker 8: that I had really no choice but to write it.
Speaker 8: It was an important story that had to be told.
Speaker 4: Certainly now just before we start, because I know there's
Speaker 4: a lot of confusion, even for me born in Ontario.
Speaker 4: So tell us where Markham is and in relation to Toronto,
Speaker 4: where our international audience, our American audience will know more
Speaker 4: of than obviously Markham. Tell us what Markham is and
Speaker 4: where it is in relation to Toronto.
Speaker 8: Sure, Markham was once a small town, and it slowly
Speaker 8: as Toronto grew into a metropolitan city, grew out and out.
Speaker 8: It became a suburb. And you know, it was once
Speaker 8: white Anglo Saxon, a farming community, but slowly it became
Speaker 8: it became a suburban, a suburban town with a growing
Speaker 8: Chinese population. And at this point it's about about half
Speaker 8: the city of about three hundred and fifty thousand people
Speaker 8: are are now Asian. I believe that actually half the
Speaker 8: city is of Chinese origin, and many of them come
Speaker 8: from a municipality in Toronto called Scarborough. It's a sort
Speaker 8: of a lower socioeconomic municipality and a lot of the
Speaker 8: people who do well in Scarborough. I mean immigrants since
Speaker 8: the fifties have landed in Scarborough. That's where people get
Speaker 8: their start because of the cheap housing. And when those
Speaker 8: residents do well, a lot of them Chinese, they move north.
Speaker 8: And just north of Scarborough is Markham. I'm Jennifer. Pan's
Speaker 8: family was a typical example of this.
Speaker 4: Now, the main characters in this story, the Pan family,
Speaker 4: and you talk about the fifty seven year old hand
Speaker 4: Pan and his wife Bika and Pan and they've been
Speaker 4: together thirty years. And you set this right away. You
Speaker 4: set with the action and bring the audience in when
Speaker 4: they are woken from a deep sleep and Hand the
Speaker 4: father meets a man with a baseball bat in his
Speaker 4: cap pulled down basically out of his down on his eyes.
Speaker 4: So and he's out of bed demanding money. So take
Speaker 4: us to this scene that you bring us to in
Speaker 4: the book, and what is happening in the Pan home.
Speaker 4: Maybe before we start that, tell us just a little
Speaker 4: bit about the Pan family and where they are. You
Speaker 4: show some photos in there that sets up the scene
Speaker 4: where this is an affluent part of town anyway, in
Speaker 4: this suburb, and what Handpan wakes up to in his
Speaker 4: home November eighth, twenty ten.
Speaker 8: Okay, so I'll just I'll start off briefly by explaining
Speaker 8: how they came to be here there. The Pans are
Speaker 8: Chinese of Chinese origin who came to Canada Vietnam after
Speaker 8: the Vietnamese War. They landed and as I was saying
Speaker 8: from the top, they came to Scarborough, managed to purchase
Speaker 8: a home and worked at a car parts manufacturer called
Speaker 8: Magna for twenty five years. And both of them worked
Speaker 8: their fingers to the bone. They were waking up at
Speaker 8: five o'clock in the morning and working the whole day
Speaker 8: through working overtime, and eventually it saved enough money to
Speaker 8: move up to Markham and buy a suburban home, four
Speaker 8: bedroom home on a very nice street in a place
Speaker 8: called Unionville, which is the historic part of Markham. Excuse me.
Speaker 8: And life in the suburban neighborhood was was Although it
Speaker 8: may have seemed positive, it seemed to be negative for Jennifer,
Speaker 8: and we'll we get into that later. But Hann again
Speaker 8: woke up at five o'clock in the morning for his job.
Speaker 8: He was a tool and die maker, so he would
Speaker 8: be in bed by ten nine. Sometimes he went to
Speaker 8: bed that night he turned in early and woke up,
Speaker 8: and you mentioned a baseball that was actually a gun.
Speaker 8: He was laying in his bed and a gun was
Speaker 8: shoved in his face, and a voice came out of
Speaker 8: the darkness and said, where's the effing money. Hann was
Speaker 8: then awoken from his slumber, turned around without his glasses on,
Speaker 8: and marched down the stairs with a gun at the
Speaker 8: back of his head. When he reached the bottom of
Speaker 8: the stairs, he saw another man holding a gun to
Speaker 8: the head of his wife. And he was out on
Speaker 8: the couch beside his wife. And it's the first thing
Speaker 8: his wife asked him in Cantonese, said to him, how
Speaker 8: did they get in? And he responded, I don't know.
Speaker 8: I was sleeping. Afterwards, they were berated and and beaten briefly,
Speaker 8: and but but but most of all they were they
Speaker 8: were repeatedly asked for the money, which handpan kept replying,
Speaker 8: we don't have any money. All I have is sixty
Speaker 8: dollars that's upstairs in my in my jean pockets. They
Speaker 8: ended up getting that money to one of one of
Speaker 8: the burglars called to the other and he ended up
Speaker 8: getting that money. They were then marched to the bottom
Speaker 8: of the stairs into the basement, and a blanket was
Speaker 8: put over Handpan's head and beck Ha's head and hand
Speaker 8: Pan sat patiently and allowed the blanket to be put
Speaker 8: over his head. He was then shot twice in the
Speaker 8: face and the shoulder at point blank range, and he
Speaker 8: slumped and fell to the floor. His wife wouldn't allow
Speaker 8: the blanket to be to be put on her head.
Speaker 8: She was panicking. She kept calling out to her daughter, Jennifer, please,
Speaker 8: you can hurt us, but don't hurt our daughter. The
Speaker 8: men had no time for this, so without a blanket
Speaker 8: on her head, the men put the guns up to
Speaker 8: the back of her skull and fired again point blank range,
Speaker 8: putting two bullets through her brain, and she died.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about what happens next, where the nine
Speaker 4: one one call. That's crucial in this entire story. You've
Speaker 4: mentioned Jennifer, their daughter, Their son, Felix is in Hamilton
Speaker 4: at school. I believe he's in Hamilton anyways, not at home.
Speaker 4: Jennifer is there. Tell us by the time you talk
Speaker 4: about these gunshots, what is happening at the same time
Speaker 4: regarding Jennifer.
Speaker 8: Okay, So after beck is shot, she slumps falls to
Speaker 8: the floor and the men leave the home. There's three
Speaker 8: of them. Jennifer, then, who's on the top floor bound
Speaker 8: her wrists are bound against the against the banister, bound
Speaker 8: behind her back, manages to call nine one one with
Speaker 8: a cell phone that's been tucked into her yoga pants.
Speaker 8: She calls nine one one and and while she's talking
Speaker 8: to the operator screaming, help, help, We've just been robbed.
Speaker 8: And I heard pops. You hear in the background of
Speaker 8: the nine to one one call her father with this
Speaker 8: sort of blood curdling scream and moan rising from the basement.
Speaker 8: He's just just awoken from his I don't know what
Speaker 8: you'd call it, I guess, after being shot in the
Speaker 8: face to find his wife dead. And he's then rising
Speaker 8: from this and coming up and immediately bolts out of
Speaker 8: the house while his daughter is yelling down, Dad, I'm here, please, Dad.
Speaker 8: Hand runs out the door, and the Jennifer's left on
Speaker 8: the phone talking to the nine to one one call operator,
Speaker 8: who's who has police there within minutes.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about Handpan collapsing in his neighbor, right
Speaker 4: in front of his neighbor, Peter Cheng and so right
Speaker 4: on the scene is Constable Mike Stesco, and in broken English,
Speaker 4: the hand somehow incredibly communicates there was a robbery and
Speaker 4: intruders shot his wife and left his daughter inside. So
Speaker 4: tell us what Mike Stesco, Carnival Constable Mason Baines, and
Speaker 4: the people right at the scene do and find at
Speaker 4: the scene, sure.
Speaker 8: Hand, excuse me. Hann manages to convey the message that
Speaker 8: his wife had been shot and he had been shot.
Speaker 8: Because the bullet wound was not visible, he had blood
Speaker 8: streaming from his face, but the police officers couldn't really
Speaker 8: see how the blood or where the blood was coming from.
Speaker 8: So he motioned with his hands, forming a gun and
Speaker 8: pointing to his head. So the police officers armed themselves
Speaker 8: and their backs hit the wall of the home and
Speaker 8: they creep inside the home, not knowing who's inside the
Speaker 8: house or outside. Two of the officers go downstairs and
Speaker 8: find Bick laying on the floor with a towel partially
Speaker 8: over her face and a large pool of blood gathering
Speaker 8: around her head. I believe they described the blood as
Speaker 8: sort of a bluish red and very thick when they
Speaker 8: when they approached her, one of the officers described her
Speaker 8: skin while the other officer took her pulse. He was
Speaker 8: describing her skin as as already gray and blue her legs,
Speaker 8: so he knew that she had already the life had
Speaker 8: left her. Another officer, who was a rookie he was
Speaker 8: just new in the country, originally from Scotland, was told
Speaker 8: to go upstairs and find the daughter who was screaming, Jennifer.
Speaker 8: So he went upstairs and talked to Jennifer. As he
Speaker 8: was rising from the stairs, he holstered his gun, thinking
Speaker 8: that the men had gone because the home looked perfectly
Speaker 8: still and all they could hear was Jennifer's screams. When
Speaker 8: he hollered up to her, are they gone? Are they gone?
Speaker 8: She answered, oddly enough, answered I don't know. I just
Speaker 8: heard footsteps. So he again pulled out his pistol as
Speaker 8: he slowly walked up their sideways and found her. He
Speaker 8: then cleared the three bedrooms that he saw the four
Speaker 8: bedroom excuse me, and proceeded to get a pair of
Speaker 8: scissors from Jennifer's a nightstand, which she advised him of
Speaker 8: to cut the rope that was binding her. She was hysterical, uninconsolable,
Speaker 8: and the eternal Gentleman placed his jacket around her shoulders
Speaker 8: and led her outside while hand was being put into
Speaker 8: a stretcher, screaming, still trying to trying to gather his
Speaker 8: mind around what had just occurred. She said to him
Speaker 8: as he was being loaded into the ambulance, Daddy, are
Speaker 8: you okay? That was the last thing he heard after
Speaker 8: being rushed to hospital.
Speaker 4: You say he was a rookie, but even that rookie
Speaker 4: noticed the way she was tied to that banister. Tell
Speaker 4: us what he did observe, not making any conclusions, but
Speaker 4: just what he did observe about her being tied to
Speaker 4: that banister.
Speaker 8: He called it Copenhagen's mermaid. Now, if you can imagine
Speaker 8: a mermaid, the way they may sit on the on
Speaker 8: their tail. So she was sitting on her on the
Speaker 8: bottom of her feet, but sort of to the side,
Speaker 8: so her her legs were straddling her rear end, which
Speaker 8: was touching the ground. Her arms were bound behind her
Speaker 8: to the banister, and she she I believe, really did
Speaker 8: well at showing him that she was totally and utterly
Speaker 8: distraught and distrusted, screaming and yelling and hysterical about what
Speaker 8: had just occurred.
Speaker 4: Now, the description she gives to the police is what
Speaker 4: at that time, what does she say? How good a
Speaker 4: look does she get? Tell us what she says to
Speaker 4: police in terms of the three perpetrators, she claims were
Speaker 4: in the home.
Speaker 8: So when she's when she's asked were they men, she says,
Speaker 8: I think. So when she's asked what color their skin was,
Speaker 8: she said black, I think. And when she described them,
Speaker 8: she does a very poor job saying anything other than
Speaker 8: they were wearing hoodies and they had the guns. There
Speaker 8: was nothing she described to the operators that would allow
Speaker 8: them to get any hints or clues as to as
Speaker 8: to who who had perpetrated this heinous crime.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about four hours later, this hand pen
Speaker 4: is clinging to life and Jennifer is interviewed by Detective
Speaker 4: Randy Slade, and he's a veteran of the homicide unit.
Speaker 4: Two hour interview, and he tells her that the sworn
Speaker 4: video statement is not accusatory, but it's a guarantee that
Speaker 4: she tells the truth, and points out at that time
Speaker 4: the penalty for lying being fourteen years. What does he
Speaker 4: observe in terms of her reaction to the statements he
Speaker 4: makes again, he does make conclusions. What does he observed.
Speaker 8: Sure, it's important to realize that at this point Jennifer
Speaker 8: was very much the victim and as far as anyone
Speaker 8: knew she was, she had been home and was the
Speaker 8: last surviving victim of a of a perfectly random home
Speaker 8: invasion in which two people were shot in the head,
Speaker 8: one of them died. So as you can imagine any
Speaker 8: sort of inkling that that Randy Slade notes to her
Speaker 8: that this is she's accusing her, or that he's he's
Speaker 8: sort of implying that she may be involved, he sort
Speaker 8: of apologizes for because he can. He can he can
Speaker 8: really sympathize with what she was going for through so
Speaker 8: he makes it very clear that she is not a suspect,
Speaker 8: she's not a person of interest, She is the victim
Speaker 8: and and really handled her with kid gloves through throughout
Speaker 8: the first interview.
Speaker 4: Now, how far did they go in terms of this
Speaker 4: interview in that two hours of doing anything in terms
Speaker 4: of confiscating or looking at or warrant for contents of
Speaker 4: her cell phone.
Speaker 8: Nothing. This is if you can imagine Markham as a
Speaker 8: place that's so peaceful that there were fourteen home invasions
Speaker 8: the year before this kind of crime in Canada just
Speaker 8: does not occur. And in those home invasions, people are
Speaker 8: not assaulted, and people are not bound up, and they're
Speaker 8: certainly not shot or wounded. Usually it's a monetary thing.
Speaker 8: So for police, who had at this point absolutely no
Speaker 8: clues in such a peaceful place, they were really mystified
Speaker 8: by the crime, mostly because in their experience, random crimes
Speaker 8: don't happen percent of the time a crime is targeted.
Speaker 8: This on its face appeared to be perfectly random. But
Speaker 8: if you ask any detective, they'll know and they'll explain
Speaker 8: to you that crimes aren't random. Men don't drive down
Speaker 8: a street looking for the biggest house usually and then
Speaker 8: just waltz in with guns demanding money. Usually there's a
Speaker 8: tip or some information, or they know the person, or
Speaker 8: they know that there's a safe in the basement. So
Speaker 8: for police, they were I would say the accurate term
Speaker 8: is bewildered, and certainly didn't want to lay blame at
Speaker 8: Jennifer's feet.
Speaker 4: Now, they didn't want to lay blame, but they did
Speaker 4: assess the crime scene and in terms of motive for
Speaker 4: this particularly gruesome murder, what was the likelihood of that
Speaker 4: this motive was robbery? And what didn't they steal, including
Speaker 4: Alexis and a Mercedes.
Speaker 8: Sure, so, when when you're a detective, from what the
Speaker 8: detectives working on the case told me, you have to
Speaker 8: work with the facts. So it may seem bizarre to
Speaker 8: them that someone just broke in and shot two people
Speaker 8: and stole a bit of money, But they can't then
Speaker 8: jump to conclusions and say, well, this seems like an
Speaker 8: inside job. They have to work with what they've got.
Speaker 8: So when they enter in the home, they noticed that handpans,
Speaker 8: bed has been completely ramshackled by the intruders. They noticed
Speaker 8: that has purse has been rifled through. They also noticed
Speaker 8: that Jennifer had lost two thousand dollars to the men,
Speaker 8: So initially they believed that this was the robbery. Now,
Speaker 8: particularly inquisitive detectives would have noticed, as you said, that
Speaker 8: there was still money in bick Hau's purse, not much,
Speaker 8: but certainly twenty forty sixty dollars. The TV was still there,
Speaker 8: the electronics were still there. Two cars, including a Mercedes
Speaker 8: and a Benz were still in the driveway in the garage.
Speaker 8: Excuse me. So there were hints that something was awry,
Speaker 8: but far be it from a detective to make accusations
Speaker 8: based on mere hints.
Speaker 4: Same time, what they do is their due diligence, and
Speaker 4: they have a technique, and they have techniques in terms
Speaker 4: of further interviews and to look for inconsistencies, to look
Speaker 4: for again reaction, but mostly inconsistencies, and if they can
Speaker 4: get any more information by a further interview. So there isn't,
Speaker 4: as you right later, there is no DNA evidence, there
Speaker 4: is no weapons found, there is no bloody clothing found.
Speaker 4: So how to police proceed and tell us about the
Speaker 4: next interview?
Speaker 8: So what police get? What police have the beginning scares them,
Speaker 8: I believe, and they put on They put forty officers
Speaker 8: on the case because they realize that they have very little.
Speaker 8: As you said, there is no there is no DNA,
Speaker 8: there is no weapon, there is no bloody clothes, there
Speaker 8: are no footprints. There happens to be footage from across
Speaker 8: the street, video surveillance footage of a car driving up,
Speaker 8: parking and then driving away, but it's so dark and
Speaker 8: so poor that it shows very little else. So what
Speaker 8: they put out as a result of Jennifer's first interview,
Speaker 8: in which she, by the way, calls the intruders refers
Speaker 8: to them as gentlemen at one point, which is another
Speaker 8: odd sort of happening. So they get that three black
Speaker 8: male intruders entered into the home. One of them had
Speaker 8: dreads and was short and stocky, another was tall with
Speaker 8: an oval face, and a third seemed to have a
Speaker 8: Caribbean accent of some sort, but the face his face
Speaker 8: was never seen. They also saw that it was a
Speaker 8: late model silver Accura with tinted windows, similar to a Civic.
Speaker 8: So this is what really all they have to go on.
Speaker 8: And then there are these puzzling details like the two
Speaker 8: cars are still there, and there's still money there, and
Speaker 8: there's expensive camera equipment, and there was a safe that
Speaker 8: was never broken into. So when the second interview comes around,
Speaker 8: the detectives explain to Randy that he needs to be
Speaker 8: more forceful with Jennifer because there were some inconsistencies. Now,
Speaker 8: one of the main inconsistencies. Now your sharp listeners will
Speaker 8: see will may may think, how did she call the
Speaker 8: police nine to one one with her cell phone when
Speaker 8: her hands were bound behind her back. So in the
Speaker 8: second interview, Randy Slade asks her, gives her a phone,
Speaker 8: a dummy phone, and says, show me how you called
Speaker 8: the police with your hands bound behind your back, And
Speaker 8: this is when you start seeing Jennifer. I don't, I
Speaker 8: don't want to say fall apart. But her behavior becomes
Speaker 8: very erratic, and she becomes she starts cracking her knuckles
Speaker 8: and pacing and becomes very nervous, and she binds her
Speaker 8: hand behind hands behind her back with imaginary string and
Speaker 8: seems to pull the phone out of her yoga pants
Speaker 8: and and somehow fashions out of that a call that
Speaker 8: she could have made, So she says, she dials the
Speaker 8: number and puts it on speakerphone and turns up the
Speaker 8: volume and talks to the operator in that way. But
Speaker 8: it's still questionable, I guess you could say. And there
Speaker 8: are there are other inconsistencies. They had interviewed her ex
Speaker 8: boyfriend and he had told her about a number of
Speaker 8: lies that Jennifer had told her parents in a bed
Speaker 8: to continue to see him, and the detective uses that
Speaker 8: as a way to sort of unsettle Jennifer to the
Speaker 8: point where she starts, she really starts suffering under the
Speaker 8: glare of the detective's attention. But again I have to
Speaker 8: accentuate that all of this odd behavior and all of
Speaker 8: these questions that were raised around her on that night
Speaker 8: are nothing more than that questions. And detectives need hard
Speaker 8: evidence to lay charges or to make someone a suspect,
Speaker 8: and at this point they had no evidence.
Speaker 4: Now, meanwhile, what is the status of Handpan. The doctor
Speaker 4: induced a coma, he was he was in serious condition,
Speaker 4: So what does the family do? Is there a vigil
Speaker 4: at the hospital, and what is Jennifer's behavior like? At
Speaker 4: that hospital?
Speaker 8: She sees a psychiatrist and is put on a drug
Speaker 8: similar to lerazapam. I can't remember exactly what it was called,
Speaker 8: which dulls her senses and allows her to calm down,
Speaker 8: and she continues to take that throughout. There is no
Speaker 8: vigil held. The doctors put him in a coma, and really,
Speaker 8: I can't accentuate enough that his survival is really miraculous.
Speaker 8: The bullet that was shot through his face ended up
Speaker 8: going down through his neck and missing his cartoid artery
Speaker 8: by millimeters, and if it had to hit the cartoid artery,
Speaker 8: he would be dead. Instead, the bullet got lodged in
Speaker 8: his neck and he was unable to speak when he
Speaker 8: was when he was revived from the coma. But other
Speaker 8: than that he was he was in pretty good shape.
Speaker 4: Are police anxious to talk to him in case he
Speaker 4: knows something about this case? How how crucial of a
Speaker 4: witness do they think hand Pan, now that he recovers can.
Speaker 8: Be really is as crucial as anyone He is the
Speaker 8: because he is the lynchpin. By this point, not only police,
Speaker 8: but the family, the extended family with whom Jennifer is staying,
Speaker 8: have started to become a bit suspicious about her behavior,
Speaker 8: and police, through Jennifer's ex boyfriend Daniel Wong, find out
Speaker 8: that she had two cell phones. So the cell phone
Speaker 8: that they had already claimed from her and were searching
Speaker 8: through was just one. There was a second cell phone
Speaker 8: and that was found on her desk, and the police
Speaker 8: managed to convince her to sign a wave reform for
Speaker 8: them to look through this phone. This was an iPhone
Speaker 8: and the other phone was a sort of a Samsung
Speaker 8: flip phone. And it was a very difficult position for
Speaker 8: Jennifer to be in because the family of hand Pan,
Speaker 8: his brothers and sisters, were starting to become suspicious and
Speaker 8: started questioning Jennifer as to why.
Speaker 4: She was.
Speaker 8: Not telling police everything. At one point, she apparently said
Speaker 8: to her cousin that they didn't shoot me because they
Speaker 8: liked me. And at another point she actually refused to
Speaker 8: go see the police under the guise of organizing her
Speaker 8: mother's funeral, and the family didn't like that.
Speaker 4: Can you talk about the mother's funeral.
Speaker 8: Yes, The detective showed up to the mother's funeral, and
Speaker 8: what they saw is quite unnerving. The story I tell
Speaker 8: in the book involves them sitting at the back row
Speaker 8: and Jennifer up at the front of the temple sort
Speaker 8: of sobbing into her fists. The way it was described
Speaker 8: was that Jennifer was rubbing her eyes with her fists
Speaker 8: and sort of blubbering, I guess you could say, and
Speaker 8: continually looking up at the detectives to see if they
Speaker 8: were looking at her. But the one thing that they
Speaker 8: noticed was there were no tears. Now this is confirmed
Speaker 8: by Jennifer's piano teacher, who was also at the funeral,
Speaker 8: and it was confirmed separately, independently of one another. She
Speaker 8: said the exact same thing, that Jennifer was crying and sobbing,
Speaker 8: but there were no tears.
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Speaker 4: When we last left off, Jeremy, you were speaking about
Speaker 4: how their web of lies from Jennifer and the case
Speaker 4: is closing in on young Jennifer and some the family
Speaker 4: members suspect her her odd behavior at her mother's funeral.
Speaker 4: Tell us what happens next in this case.
Speaker 8: So the family are holding vigil around Handpan's bed as
Speaker 8: he as the machines sort of beep around him, and
Speaker 8: the doctor enters. Jennifer is there and she doesn't leave
Speaker 8: his bedside, and when the doctor enters, he's got good
Speaker 8: news and he says to the family hand Pen is
Speaker 8: going to survive and we are going to bring him
Speaker 8: out of his coma and he will survive with all
Speaker 8: his cognitive functions, and everyone is overjoyed hugging and and
Speaker 8: there's loud chatter around, but there's one voice that comes
Speaker 8: through and asks the doctor a question. Jennifer says, but doctor,
Speaker 8: what if there's an infection? And the doctor says, there
Speaker 8: won't be an infection. We've dealt with this. Excuse me now.
Speaker 8: What happens next is possibly one of the most fascinating details.
Speaker 8: Jennifer immediately stands up and asks her everyone in the
Speaker 8: room if they have fifty cents for the payphone, and
Speaker 8: people find this odd. One of her uncles offers his
Speaker 8: phone to her, and she says, no, I need to
Speaker 8: use the payphone, and they say, well, what about your phone?
Speaker 8: Then she says, my phone is dead. So one of
Speaker 8: the uncles gives her fifty cents and she goes out
Speaker 8: in the hallway and calls her ex boyfriend and the police.
Speaker 8: The family would eventually tell the police and they would
Speaker 8: search the phones and find out the call she places.
Speaker 8: Now the call went to call uh, went to voicemail.
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Speaker 8: The assumption became that she was calling her boyfriend to
Speaker 8: warn him that her father was about to survive, and
Speaker 8: if he did survive, their plan was in peril.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about he introduced the character Detective Sergeant
Speaker 4: Larry Wilson. He's a major case manager, day to day
Speaker 4: tactical and he has along with him his Detective Bill Cordis,
Speaker 4: and now he's been part of eighty murder investigations and
Speaker 4: lead on five of these. And another person, the number
Speaker 4: three on this team is Detective Alan Cook, and Cook
Speaker 4: and Cortese work together. Now there's no police consensus, like
Speaker 4: you say, and they have to follow the evidence as
Speaker 4: it unfolds. But this Alan Cook, he thinks this is
Speaker 4: an inside job, doesn't he?
Speaker 8: Yeah, he thought that the entire time from the get go, because,
Speaker 8: as I mentioned before, in his view, nothing is random.
Speaker 8: There's always a reason. But because after a particularly brutal
Speaker 8: case involving York Regional Police and a man by the
Speaker 8: name of Gee Paul Moran, who was wrongfully accused and
Speaker 8: convicted of a young girl's murder. Police forces across Canada
Speaker 8: began creating new ways of doing things, So it was
Speaker 8: it's a triangle, and as you mentioned, there was three detectives,
Speaker 8: and the three detectives are there to ensure that they
Speaker 8: are not going on assumptions, because when you act on assumptions,
Speaker 8: you can often assumptions reinf force assumptions, and when you
Speaker 8: do that, it can lead to blinders being put on
Speaker 8: the investigation. And when that happens, often there can be wrongful,
Speaker 8: wrongful convictions or wrongful charges, and that not only hurts
Speaker 8: the police force, it hurts the justice system and can
Speaker 8: lead to a case going unsolved. So the three officers
Speaker 8: are there to ensure that they're following the facts, not
Speaker 8: police assumptions.
Speaker 4: You talk about. Just a couple of days later, though,
Speaker 4: November tenth, Daniel Wong comes to mark them police for
Speaker 4: his interview and he's accompanied by his girlfriend and Katrina Villaneuva.
Speaker 4: Now this Daniel is twenty five. You say, he is
Speaker 4: really respectful and willing to engage, but this group of
Speaker 4: police officers's get some information from him regarding Jennifer. That's
Speaker 4: very very interesting. Tell us what they find out from
Speaker 4: Daniel Wong about Jennifer and her family and the relationship
Speaker 4: and how the family feels about that.
Speaker 8: Sure, this is really where police start saying, all right,
Speaker 8: we need to we need to shift our focus Daniel Wong,
Speaker 8: as I mentioned earlier, he tells them about a second
Speaker 8: cell phone, which they then go and search for. But
Speaker 8: he also tells them about a life that is very
Speaker 8: far from the sort of boring, normal life that Jennifer
Speaker 8: says her family leads. He tells them about about large
Speaker 8: amounts of cash within the family. He tells them about
Speaker 8: how he's a drug. He tells them about how the family,
Speaker 8: the parents Hann and Bick, ended up ruining Jennifer and
Speaker 8: Daniel's relationship. He also tells them about countless lies that
Speaker 8: Jennifer's told throughout her life, including faking transcripts, faking an
Speaker 8: entire university career that lasted eight years. He tells them
Speaker 8: that at the end of when Jennifer was caught in
Speaker 8: all her lies, hand locked her in the house for
Speaker 8: a year and a half and made her quit all
Speaker 8: her jobs and locked her in the house because he
Speaker 8: didn't trust her anymore, and he thought that Daniel was
Speaker 8: the source of these lies. Now, when police start quot
Speaker 8: questioning him about whether, you know, maybe the robbery was
Speaker 8: payback for his drug dealing activities, he starts to push
Speaker 8: back and starts to lead them down a path of
Speaker 8: what he thinks might be the reason for the murders,
Speaker 8: and he starts telling them about these odd crank calls
Speaker 8: he was getting one hundred of nights sometimes where the
Speaker 8: caller would would leave cryptic messages and say very morose
Speaker 8: things including ha ha bang bang bang, I'm going to
Speaker 8: get you things like this on his cell phone on
Speaker 8: his email, and he would get these messages. Jennifer would
Speaker 8: get these messages, and Jennifer's sort of Daniel's new girlfriend,
Speaker 8: also got these messages. He also told them about Jennifer
Speaker 8: being gang raped by five Asian men, a story that
Speaker 8: she had told him, and the police then starts saying, Wow,
Speaker 8: this is very, very different from the girl who had
Speaker 8: made herself out to be a little angel, and we
Speaker 8: need to start refocusing.
Speaker 4: It's interesting. The detective Mulligan asks casually asked Daniel how
Speaker 4: much it would cost to just take somebody out and
Speaker 4: what was his answer.
Speaker 8: That is very interesting. They Mulligan does does a masterful
Speaker 8: job during this interrogation where he essentially sort of buddies
Speaker 8: up to Daniel and starts talking to him about drug
Speaker 8: dealing and isn't in the underworld, which is very minor.
Speaker 8: By the way, he was selling dimebags and making you know,
Speaker 8: not even hundreds a week. I would say he was
Speaker 8: just selling to friends and acquaintances. Anyways, by the end
Speaker 8: of the interview they had built up a bit of
Speaker 8: a relationship and at one point Mulligan asked him, so,
Speaker 8: let's say you wanted to off somebody, you wanted to
Speaker 8: get rid of somebody, how much would that cost in
Speaker 8: the street, And Daniel astoundingly says ten thousand dollars. You
Speaker 8: could have somebody killed for ten thousand dollars.
Speaker 4: Yeah, very interesting. Now the police en Slade believed that
Speaker 4: now that Daniel has been spoken into that likely Jennifer
Speaker 4: is going to try to contact Daniel to see what
Speaker 4: he has said and what was said. How do they
Speaker 4: proceed with this idea that this like will happen.
Speaker 8: So when they call Jennifer in again, they have a
Speaker 8: lot more information and they're able to sort of twist
Speaker 8: and turn Jennifer through all sorts of hoops trying to
Speaker 8: see what she's going to lie about. But you can
Speaker 8: imagine how unsettling it would be for detectives to find
Speaker 8: out how much deception this young girl was involved in,
Speaker 8: faking transcript faking a university career for eight years of
Speaker 8: her life, which she had, by the way, never attended university.
Speaker 8: She hadn't even graduated high school, but her parents were
Speaker 8: under the impression that she had graduated from university and
Speaker 8: was planning on going to work as a pharmacist, which
Speaker 8: was Hand's dream for her. Now, so they use this
Speaker 8: to get Jennifer to talk herself into circles, and it
Speaker 8: works to a certain degree. However, again it's it's not
Speaker 8: cold hard evidence. This is uh. This is again a
Speaker 8: strange behavior and some some questionable answers by a young woman.
Speaker 8: But soon enough hand Pan will be awoken from his
Speaker 8: coma and that's when some some some some facts start
Speaker 8: coming out.
Speaker 4: Now they do get her to explain now that they
Speaker 4: have this information, that she never bothered to impart to
Speaker 4: them the reality of this idyllic family. But really the
Speaker 4: nine o'clock curfew, she talks about and so it looks
Speaker 4: like again, it looks like a good reason to be resentful.
Speaker 4: So when she provides all this information that Daniel had
Speaker 4: already provided and she confirmed some of that, what is
Speaker 4: her answer to the likelihood of there being some resentment
Speaker 4: and maybe then a possibility of a retaliation. What does
Speaker 4: she say to that? So she.
Speaker 8: Sort of dodges the question multiple times in which Slade
Speaker 8: asks her, was there any resentment for your parents locking
Speaker 8: you down in your home and ruining your relationship? And
Speaker 8: she doesn't answer the question, And it's really fascinating to watch,
Speaker 8: and you can watch the interrogation videos on YouTube. I
Speaker 8: posted them on there. And when she says, essentially, I
Speaker 8: love my parents and I would do anything to stay
Speaker 8: with them, And she tells the story of how her
Speaker 8: father gave her an ultimatum at one point in which
Speaker 8: he said, either you go with Daniel and we never
Speaker 8: talk again, or you stay home with us, and she
Speaker 8: decides to stay home with the family and to never
Speaker 8: talk to Daniel again. But that's of course not what
Speaker 8: she does. But that's the question that Slade keeps pounding,
Speaker 8: was there any resentment? And she continually responds, no, I
Speaker 8: love my parents, and I would do anything for them,
Speaker 8: and that's all I have to say. Now, He at
Speaker 8: one point confronts her and says to her, was this
Speaker 8: so this wasn't all just a plot you cooked up
Speaker 8: to get your parents out of the way? And she
Speaker 8: sort of puts her hand on her chest and with
Speaker 8: big doll eyes and says to him, oh, my god, no,
Speaker 8: I would never do that, and he believes her.
Speaker 4: Now, you profound part of this book is this. Hann
Speaker 4: tells his family doesn't really want to see his daughter,
Speaker 4: but she manages to go to his bedside. He doesn't
Speaker 4: confront her per se, but he what does he ask
Speaker 4: her regarding Daniel and what's her response?
Speaker 8: He says to her, was Daniel involved in this? And
Speaker 8: she says, I'm not one hundred percent, but I don't
Speaker 8: think so. Now, bearing in mind, Hanne hates Daniel and
Speaker 8: has always thought that it was him, his influence that
Speaker 8: has caused his daughter's life to go off the rails. Now,
Speaker 8: I also should mention that she was a very high
Speaker 8: and figure skater, and she was basically a piano prodigy
Speaker 8: and a straight A student in grade school. But when
Speaker 8: she got to high school, the lies began and her
Speaker 8: grades fell off. That's when she started manufacturing fake report cards.
Speaker 8: So he basically equates all her poor behavior with Daniel,
Speaker 8: but she denies it, and she makes it to his bedside,
Speaker 8: and she's sort of trying to manipulate him to tell
Speaker 8: the police what she wants him to tell them, which
Speaker 8: is that she had no involvement.
Speaker 4: Now you're write in November twenty second, and now we're
Speaker 4: talking just a few weeks after the murder. Another police interview,
Speaker 4: new interrogator, Detective Bill Gates, and with a dramatic shift
Speaker 4: in interview style. He's a season interrogator and polygraph expert,
Speaker 4: so he's human lie detector, as he calls himself. Yeah,
Speaker 4: now what's his approach? You say, he spends a couple
Speaker 4: hours gaining her trust, But what's this dramatic shift and
Speaker 4: what does he get from her in this dramatic shift?
Speaker 4: What does she admit to and who does she admit to?
Speaker 8: So this is something something called the read technique, and
Speaker 8: this is a very controversial police technique that is used.
Speaker 8: Now I'll just reference this film because I'm sure many
Speaker 8: of your listeners have seen it. It's the Netflix show
Speaker 8: in which Dacy is questioned by detectives the making of
Speaker 8: a murderer, and he is The read technique basically involved
Speaker 8: a detective entering a room with a preconceived notion, so
Speaker 8: basically walking into the room saying to this person without
Speaker 8: saying it at the beginning that basically, I know you've
Speaker 8: done this, so just admit it. It's controversial because of
Speaker 8: what happened in Brendan Darcy's case. People who have a
Speaker 8: lower intellect may go along with police assertions, or younger
Speaker 8: people may go along with police assertions because they want
Speaker 8: to make the person happy. So if they were actually innocent,
Speaker 8: they can be caught telling lies to the interrogator, basically
Speaker 8: implicating themselves in the murder, even though they may not
Speaker 8: have been involved, because the interrogator keeps accusing them. So essentially,
Speaker 8: Bill Gates which is his name, sits down with her
Speaker 8: and starts off very unsympathetic reads or her rights reads
Speaker 8: or her rights, asks her her name, and says to her,
Speaker 8: tell me your life story. So Jennifer begins regaling him
Speaker 8: with multiple hours of interesting details about her life, what
Speaker 8: she's done, her relationship with Daniel, her relationship with her parents,
Speaker 8: all the way through her childhood, and so he's gaining
Speaker 8: her trust. Now at the drop of a hat, about
Speaker 8: two hours into the interview, it shifts, so he then
Speaker 8: goes from the happy go lucky detective befriending her to
Speaker 8: the accusatory detective. So he tries to justify the crime
Speaker 8: to her psychologically, sort of saying that this is not
Speaker 8: your fault. Jennifer. Your parents were abusing you by locking
Speaker 8: you in the house. They were abusing you by having
Speaker 8: such high expectations of you. They were abusing you by
Speaker 8: wanting you to become a pharmacist when all you wanted
Speaker 8: to become was a piano teacher. And Jennifer basically goes introverted.
Speaker 8: She begins to put her hands over her ear, she
Speaker 8: puts her head between her legs, and Bill Gates just
Speaker 8: keeps talking, talking, talking, Now Jennifer is in a chair
Speaker 8: with no wheels in a corner, and Bill Gates is
Speaker 8: in a chair with wheels, and slowly he goes from
Speaker 8: and you'll see this in the interrogation video that's again
Speaker 8: on YouTube. He goes from one side of the room
Speaker 8: and slowly creeps up on her. And it's part of
Speaker 8: the retechnique to basically be bearing down, bearing down on
Speaker 8: the person, so make them feel as if they're a
Speaker 8: cornered animal, a caged animal, and they're being cornered, and
Speaker 8: slowly but surely, he they're in this large interrogation room,
Speaker 8: and you when you're watching the surveillance images of them.
Speaker 8: He gets closer and closer to the point where he's
Speaker 8: basically on top of her and continually saying, I know
Speaker 8: you did this. It's not your fault. Just explain why
Speaker 8: did you do this? Now, you didn't shoot them, that's
Speaker 8: a good thing, So just explain to me what happened,
Speaker 8: and will you know, sort this out? Me and you
Speaker 8: are going to sort it out together. And after four hours,
Speaker 8: Jennifer starts to crack and she says, first inaudibly, something
Speaker 8: you can't hear, and then she says it again when
Speaker 8: he prompts her, and she says, what happens to me?
Speaker 8: And then he basically goes in for the kill. This
Speaker 8: is She approaches the cliff and then jumps off it.
Speaker 8: He thinks he's going to get a confession, and she
Speaker 8: throws him a curveball. She says to him that she
Speaker 8: had tried to commit suicide multiple times, she had cut
Speaker 8: herself as youngster, and she had mental health issues and
Speaker 8: when she tried to kill herself she failed, So she
Speaker 8: had essentially hired men to come in her house and
Speaker 8: kill her to assassinate herself.
Speaker 4: As what she said, Yeah, incredible with this as well,
Speaker 4: he does get some other information from her because he
Speaker 4: knows she's guilty. Obviously, does get some information about other
Speaker 4: people in terms of phone calls. So what information does
Speaker 4: he get from that interview other than he knows absolutely
Speaker 4: that this woman did it, but he has this curveball
Speaker 4: to contend with. But what else does he get in
Speaker 4: terms of other suspects?
Speaker 8: So she implicates men who turned out to be one
Speaker 8: man who ripped her off in an original murder plot
Speaker 8: which didn't go through, and she implicates him as Homeboy. Now,
Speaker 8: I don't know if your listeners will know the movie
Speaker 8: Reservoir Dogs. I'm sure many will. Now. In Reservoir Dogs,
Speaker 8: you'll remember that the main characters had names like mister
Speaker 8: Pink and mister Brown and mister Blue, and the purpose
Speaker 8: of this was to hide their identity from one another,
Speaker 8: so that if any of them were caught, the police
Speaker 8: wouldn't be able to extricate someone ratting on someone else,
Speaker 8: and Jennifer had something similar. So she had one of
Speaker 8: her cohorts named quote unquote Homeboy, was totally unknown to her.
Speaker 8: So she was communicating with this person over so phone
Speaker 8: talk to him just a few times, but mostly it
Speaker 8: was texting, and she was texting back and forth with
Speaker 8: this man, and it arranged a plot for men to
Speaker 8: come in and kill her, but instead of coming in
Speaker 8: and killing her, they came in and killed their parents.
Speaker 8: So what's found out from this is that there was
Speaker 8: a man named Homeboy and they got the first three
Speaker 8: numbers of his phone number, and that there was a plot.
Speaker 8: But the plot that she was alleging was far different
Speaker 8: than the plot that the police were imagining in their mind.
Speaker 4: They get a break in terms of phone communication through
Speaker 4: one company and from that they get, you say, a
Speaker 4: treasure trove of text messages and phone call information. Who's
Speaker 4: this company that they get this big gift from and
Speaker 4: what do they discover in terms of the treasure trove
Speaker 4: of information.
Speaker 8: So by now police have managed to take Jennifer's other phone,
Speaker 8: which was an iPhone, from her bedroom and found that
Speaker 8: she had received a number of calls in the lead
Speaker 8: up to the murder. Now, when they opened the phone,
Speaker 8: they found that the SIM card was missing. She had
Speaker 8: called the police from her other phone, her Samsung phone,
Speaker 8: So they found the iPhone, but the SIM card was missing,
Speaker 8: and York Regional Police have a data extrication expert who
Speaker 8: managed to find the text message and the records of
Speaker 8: who called and when from the iPhone itself, which was found,
Speaker 8: but again the SIM card was never found. She had
Speaker 8: made calls in the lead up to the murder with
Speaker 8: the SIM card, but then the SIM card disappeared. So
Speaker 8: the assumption is that she thought, if I get rid
Speaker 8: of the SIM card, police won't be able to find
Speaker 8: who was calling me and who I was calling, and
Speaker 8: that proved to be a very major error by Jennifer.
Speaker 8: Now with that, with that information, the police had the
Speaker 8: numbers who had called her. The problem with that was
Speaker 8: that each phone that had called her was one of
Speaker 8: these burner cells. Now burners, it's a street word used
Speaker 8: to describe phone that can be purchased prepaid phones that
Speaker 8: are purchased under They can be purchased under false names,
Speaker 8: false addresses. They can be used and then tossed. Basically,
Speaker 8: now all the phones that had called her or most
Speaker 8: of them were fictitious names, so police were stock. However,
Speaker 8: one of the one or more of the phones belonged
Speaker 8: to this company called tell Us, which is one of
Speaker 8: the three major cellular networks in Canada, and tell Us
Speaker 8: saves text messages, so although they didn't know who owned
Speaker 8: the phones, they were able to find what the text
Speaker 8: messages contained. So a lot of the text message to
Speaker 8: Jennifer and the text messages out from Jennifer, and the
Speaker 8: text messages amongst all the co conspirators were discovered.
Speaker 4: Now you get this again, this incredible break. Like you
Speaker 4: say that tell Us has these text messages recorded for
Speaker 4: a certain period of time. So piece by piece, like
Speaker 4: you say, brick by brick, step by step, they bump
Speaker 4: into people that have something to say, and they talked
Speaker 4: to Ricardo Duncan, whose nickname is Rick. He comes in
Speaker 4: for an interview. What does he have to say about
Speaker 4: Jennifer and what do they learn? Which is very very
Speaker 4: interesting to them.
Speaker 8: So Rick tells them he's one of the calls to
Speaker 8: this phone. Now think the Crown the prosecutor would later
Speaker 8: describe the iPhone as quote unquote the murder phone. So
Speaker 8: she had her Samsung phone which was for legit calls,
Speaker 8: and then she had the murderphone where she would coordinate
Speaker 8: and talk to all the co conspirators. Rick, whose other
Speaker 8: street name was Reaper, told the police that had won.
Speaker 8: Jennifer had called him and they had met and she
Speaker 8: had given him twelve hundred dollars to kill her father
Speaker 8: and her mother, but he had told her no and
Speaker 8: and left it at that, and he said the money
Speaker 8: to be used for a night out. He borrowed the money.
Speaker 4: Now there's another man that they hear from the phone
Speaker 4: calls that there's another person named Kimball that was in
Speaker 4: the car. Tell us how they find out that again
Speaker 4: piece by piece, and then they talk about Eric Cardy.
Speaker 4: So how do they How does that all lead to Lenford? Crawford?
Speaker 4: How does this all? How does the police manage to
Speaker 4: tie all these people together and get to them?
Speaker 8: This is this is this is possibly the most amazing
Speaker 8: thing about this case. And you know, I'm no huge
Speaker 8: support of the police where I go around bigging, bigging
Speaker 8: them up, but I'm this was really amazing. So essentially,
Speaker 8: the police take the six phone calls to Jennifer's phone,
Speaker 8: and some of them are Burners, so they don't know
Speaker 8: who owns the phone, but they get they get the phone,
Speaker 8: the phone numbers, and they go through the phone numbers,
Speaker 8: uh all the text messages which are saved from that phone,
Speaker 8: and they find a number of people that have been
Speaker 8: texted texted by the same person who was texting Jennifer.
Speaker 8: And they interview hundreds and hundreds of people and eventually
Speaker 8: find someone who identifies the person who was using the phone. Now,
Speaker 8: when they look further, they can see that some of
Speaker 8: the calls from that phone are going to about fifteen
Speaker 8: other phones that were possibly being used by another co conspirator.
Speaker 8: So the other co conspirator wasn't was a very bright,
Speaker 8: street smart young man, and he was using about ten
Speaker 8: Burner phones that he had on him and a number
Speaker 8: of his girlfriend's phones. Now he had about fifteen different
Speaker 8: girls that he was with and he was using all
Speaker 8: their phones. So let me just break that down. There
Speaker 8: were more than a million bits of information, so phone numbers, calls,
Speaker 8: and text messages. Only the text messages from the telesphones
Speaker 8: again one of the three big cellular companies here were saved.
Speaker 8: So basically they were just finding this phone, this phone number,
Speaker 8: called this phone number at this time, and they created
Speaker 8: a huge web of phone numbers calling other phone numbers
Speaker 8: and found through that over numerous months, found that there
Speaker 8: were five co conspirators. And they pieced together all the
Speaker 8: text messages and calls in the days leading up to
Speaker 8: the murder and the days following the murder and could
Speaker 8: found applausible story to describe what these people were doing.
Speaker 4: Now, to just make matters worse for Jennifer, what happens
Speaker 4: with when they bring her in and finally arrest her,
Speaker 4: What is her reaction and before we talk about all
Speaker 4: the other subsequent arrests, what is her reaction to that?
Speaker 8: So she, by the way, after she makes that confession,
Speaker 8: the police arrest her and charge her with conspiracy conspiracy
Speaker 8: to commit murder, and she's put in jail. And the
Speaker 8: public when they find this out that this girl is
Speaker 8: not the victim but actually the perpetrator, some people are
Speaker 8: surprised and some people are not that surprised, but the
Speaker 8: police are lauded for their their effort in finding finding
Speaker 8: this out. Now she's in jail and police start wire
Speaker 8: tapping the phones of Daniel, her ex boyfriend, and some
Speaker 8: of these burner cell phones that they've found contacting Jennifer.
Speaker 8: Now when she goes to jail, the concern is how
Speaker 8: are these guys going to get their money? So what
Speaker 8: happens is the perpetrators end up going to Daniel's house
Speaker 8: and threatening him with guns, saying we need our money.
Speaker 4: So what happens to facilitate their arrests after this incident
Speaker 4: with Daniel.
Speaker 8: It's many months, but they essentially are caught out talking
Speaker 8: to one another. But there's one man, that one man
Speaker 8: that was never caught uh and and police police this
Speaker 8: this bright man that I was talking about earlier, the
Speaker 8: bright criminal. His name is Kimball. His street name is Kimball.
Speaker 8: And police can't nail this guy down because he has
Speaker 8: so many aliases, they're all code names. No one knows
Speaker 8: him by his real name and uh and he has
Speaker 8: so many Burner cell phones and so many girlfriends that
Speaker 8: they can't actually locate him. But eventually they find a
Speaker 8: man in the database. This is the Canadian wide database
Speaker 8: with the name with the nickname Kimball. So police when
Speaker 8: they're when they're working, find out people's street names and
Speaker 8: put it in this database, and eventually the database comes
Speaker 8: up with a Kimball, and turns out that Kimball's already
Speaker 8: wanted for murder, and he is eventually arrested, and Lenford Crawford,
Speaker 8: who was homeboy, was arrested. David mill Wagnum, who was
Speaker 8: the man who called Jennifer and the lead up to
Speaker 8: the murder, he was arrested, and Daniel Wong was arrested.
Speaker 8: They were all charged with murder. And again there's one
Speaker 8: man who remains, the one man who remains free and uncharged,
Speaker 8: and he was actually the shooter.
Speaker 4: We believe. Now we don't have time to go into them.
Speaker 4: The other half of this is incredible story. But you
Speaker 4: talk about Crown attorneys Jennifer hala Jan and Michael Rumble,
Speaker 4: just the incredible amount of evidence that the police were
Speaker 4: able to present to them, and you go through the
Speaker 4: opening statements of course, and it's interesting too, and I
Speaker 4: like that you put that when we talk about all
Speaker 4: these jurors that they had to go through that in
Speaker 4: this case. Was this trial a very very lengthy trial
Speaker 4: was set for five months, eventually was ten months, and
Speaker 4: all the media attention on this, but you know, the
Speaker 4: lowly jurors have to see crime scene photos and listen
Speaker 4: to this incredible testimony. For the eleven after the eleventh
Speaker 4: of forty ninth day, they get forty dollars a day,
Speaker 4: and after the fiftieth day, one hundred dollars per day,
Speaker 4: or it'll pardon me eleven weeks to forty nine what. Anyway,
Speaker 4: what I found very interesting is the paltry sum you
Speaker 4: give people to serve on a jury and do what
Speaker 4: many of us, most of us are not prepared to.
Speaker 8: Do for sure. And I've spoken to many of the
Speaker 8: jurors and the case is really totally changed their lives.
Speaker 8: And I know, I was just speaking to one of
Speaker 8: the jurors the other day. He had called me out
Speaker 8: for coffee to discuss the case, and he was discussing
Speaker 8: how it's changed his life and how he thinks about
Speaker 8: the men caught up in this crime every day. He
Speaker 8: was the foreman who actually had to read out the
Speaker 8: verdict and tried to stare at them all in the
Speaker 8: eyes while he did it, but they all looked ahead.
Speaker 8: But that emotion about sending these guys down to prison
Speaker 8: for twenty five years, which is life in Canada. And
Speaker 8: they all have had young children, they all had lovers
Speaker 8: and mothers and wives and girlfriends and Jennifer. You know,
Speaker 8: a lot of them were Jennifer. You know a lot
Speaker 8: of people called her evil and called her a monster
Speaker 8: and so on. But a lot of the people caught
Speaker 8: up in the crime were often described as normal, happy,
Speaker 8: go lucky people who made a very bad decision. Now,
Speaker 8: these were the organizers, including Daniel and Lenford, who's a homeboy.
Speaker 8: They organized the hit, and there were three men that
Speaker 8: entered the home and actually committed the violence. No one
Speaker 8: had any misgivings about putting them in jail. But the
Speaker 8: men who organized the hit and got twenty five years,
Speaker 8: they all had had had children and jobs, and we're
Speaker 8: you know, quote unquote normal people. And he said he
Speaker 8: still thinks about them on a daily basis.
Speaker 4: The really haunting part of the book is when the
Speaker 4: trial opens and the crown opens with a nine to
Speaker 4: one one call with hands hand pans horrific groaning with
Speaker 4: a nine to one one call in the background, and
Speaker 4: you also, through an interpreter, you talk about the incredible
Speaker 4: testimony of hand Pan and it's difficult, and he doesn't
Speaker 4: look at his daughter. So for those that will wind
Speaker 4: up reading this book, they will get to see a
Speaker 4: trial that again, it looks like it's a slam dunk,
Speaker 4: but it takes ten months, so there are problems and
Speaker 4: difficulties and some incredible stuff that goes on, including what
Speaker 4: Jennifer does and doesn't do at this trial. I want
Speaker 4: to thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 4: about a deadly A Daughter's Deadly Deception. For those people
Speaker 4: that might want to find out more. You talked about
Speaker 4: the YouTube links for to find out more information in
Speaker 4: the videos that you posted. Do you have a Facebook
Speaker 4: page and do you have a website for people that
Speaker 4: might want to follow up on after this interview?
Speaker 8: Yes, I have. The Facebook page is A Daughter's Deadly Deception.
Speaker 8: The YouTube page is Jeremy Grimaldi that you can see
Speaker 8: all the interrogation Jennifer's interrogation videos, and my email is
Speaker 8: Jeremy Underscore Grimaldi at yahoo dot ca. And I'm really
Speaker 8: trying to engage with the reader on this one, this story.
Speaker 8: I've been immersed in this story for two years of
Speaker 8: my life and it had a profound impact on me
Speaker 8: as a person and as an author and as a journalist.
Speaker 8: And the perhaps the most the most bizarre thing from
Speaker 8: it all is that I still don't know if I
Speaker 8: know Jennifer. She's such a fascinating character, and her story
Speaker 8: is really stranger than fiction, And I know that's thrown
Speaker 8: around a lot, but this one is really odd and
Speaker 8: so layered and so as you can tell from our conversation,
Speaker 8: so much going on. We've literally just broken the surface
Speaker 8: of the story. So I'm hoping people get in touch
Speaker 8: with me and and tell me their thoughts on on
Speaker 8: on the book. And you know, there's there's question whether
Speaker 8: she was a sociopath or a narcissist, or or or
Speaker 8: just a master manipulator and mastermind. But so I'd like
Speaker 8: to hear everyone's thoughts.
Speaker 4: Well, I just say it's an incredible story. I mean,
Speaker 4: we've covered a few of these cases on True Murder before,
Speaker 4: but every one of them sends a you know, a
Speaker 4: shock through your spine because it's it's so close to
Speaker 4: home when you when you read the like you say,
Speaker 4: the deadly deception that Jennifer Pan does with her loving parents,
Speaker 4: and and nobody ever can see the rationale for the murder,
Speaker 4: regardless of the treatment. Certainly she had an odd treatment
Speaker 4: at home, but nobody can really sympathize with Jennifer Pan
Speaker 4: after hearing all these details of the murders, I want
Speaker 4: to thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 4: about a daughter's deadly deception. Thank you very much. Jeremy
Speaker 4: hope to hear from you again soon. Thank you for
Speaker 4: this incredible book, in this interview, and you have a
Speaker 4: great evening.
Speaker 8: Thank you, Dan, Yeah you too, thank you.
Speaker 4: Good night, good night,